0:04

This is episode 381 with

0:06

registered dietitian certified running coach

0:09

and the host of the

0:11

Eat for endurance podcast Claire

0:13

Shorenstein Welcome

0:22

to the Strength Running podcast. We

0:25

surround you with the same experts

0:27

as pro runners. So keep listening

0:29

to hear coaches, physical therapists, strength

0:31

experts, dieticians, sports psychologists, and other

0:33

thought leaders give you the best

0:35

guidance possible to take your running

0:37

to the next level. I'm your

0:39

host coach Jason Fitzgerald. I ran

0:41

cross-country, indoor and outdoor track for

0:43

Connecticut College. I one time ran

0:45

a 239 marathon PR, and now

0:47

I'm the head coach of Strength

0:49

Running and a monthly columnist for

0:51

Outside magazine. You can learn more about

0:53

me and Strength Running at Strength

0:56

running.com. Now show some love to

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pack. Our guest today is Claire Shorenstein.

5:23

She's a registered dietician, running coach,

5:25

and she's also the host of

5:27

the Eat for Indurance podcast.

5:29

I first met Claire back in 2015

5:32

at the National Indurance Sports Summit at

5:34

Princeton, and I had the pleasure of

5:36

being on a panel with her about

5:38

fueling and eating for endurance. She caught

5:41

my attention as someone who understands the

5:43

science of eating for performance, but also

5:45

isn't shy to say that there are

5:47

no black and white answers. It's that

5:49

measured, honest perspective that brings her to

5:52

you today. Our topic is protein and

5:54

trying to figure out how much distance

5:56

runners actually need. We're now learning that

5:58

the human body can... absorb more protein

6:01

than we previously thought, and the levels

6:03

of protein that are recommended are on

6:05

the rise. Is this helpful for runners?

6:07

How much should we aim for? Does

6:09

it depend on our training? What are the

6:11

best sources of protein? And if

6:13

you're plant-based, does that change anything?

6:15

We're going deep on protein today, and

6:17

if you do like this kind of

6:20

nutrition Q&A, download a whole

6:22

extra double episode of

6:24

Q&A with another registered

6:26

dietician at strength running.com/nutrition

6:28

Q.A. There's also a

6:30

link in the description.

6:32

I'll send you a

6:35

two-part Q&A series only

6:37

available to strength running

6:39

insiders. That's strength running.com/nutrition

6:41

hyphen Q.A. And now without further

6:43

delay, please enjoy my conversation

6:45

with Claire Shorenstein. Welcome

6:48

back to the podcast, Claire. Hello, Jason.

6:50

It's been a while. It's so good

6:52

to be back. Yeah. Well, it's been

6:54

a long time since our last podcast

6:56

episode, which we were just talking. I

6:59

think it was 2020, but it's been

7:01

even longer since the first time we

7:03

met, which was back at the National

7:05

Enduring Sports Summit, which I think was

7:08

in 2015. I think you're correct. Yes,

7:10

2015. I was a baby dietician.

7:12

I know, we were at Princeton, we were

7:14

on a panel talking about different endurance

7:16

topics, but I'm glad we met

7:18

because, you know, Claire, I've always

7:20

appreciated your perspective on things because

7:23

you know, of course, yes, you're

7:25

this board certified registered dietician, so

7:27

you have the education, the credentials,

7:29

and, you know, the academic side

7:31

of things taken care of, but

7:33

you also work with endurance athletes

7:35

and you are one yourself. So

7:37

you really have all three legs

7:40

of the stool there, the professional

7:42

and the direct personal experience. So

7:44

all that to say, I'm really

7:46

excited to chat with you. Yeah,

7:48

you know, and what I like to think about,

7:50

and I mean, I work with all different types

7:52

of athletes from kind of the recreational to elite

7:55

level, but one of my favorite types of athletes

7:57

to work with are like athletes like myself, you

7:59

know, other recreationists. everyday people trying to do

8:01

all the things trying to fit it

8:03

all in and their managing work and

8:05

family and training and as you know

8:08

nutrition is often like the forgotten thing

8:10

right so you know we're just trying

8:12

to put all these pieces together and

8:14

figure out a realistic way to support

8:16

yourself right because we can talk ideals

8:18

and guidelines and all this stuff up

8:20

the wazu but like if you can't

8:22

actually implement and make it happen in

8:24

a consistent way then It doesn't matter right?

8:27

Yeah, we're talking about adherence. We're talking

8:29

about actually being able to execute on

8:31

whatever your nutrition plan is. It would

8:33

be like having a running plan that

8:36

just doesn't fit your schedule, you know.

8:38

Yes, exactly. The best running plan is

8:40

no good for you if you're not

8:43

actually able to execute on it.

8:45

So I'm excited to talk about

8:47

that, especially because I think it's

8:49

becoming increasingly more difficult to execute

8:51

on a good plan because The

8:53

plan itself is changing. We're

8:55

now learning that athletes likely

8:57

need more protein than what we

8:59

previously thought. So that's going to

9:01

be our topic today. We're going

9:03

to talk about how much protein

9:05

we need, how that's changed over

9:08

time, how to get it, and

9:10

a little bit more. Claire you

9:12

know I used to aim for

9:14

50 grams of protein per day

9:16

and exactly exactly I probably got

9:18

more than that but now I

9:20

look at that and just cringe

9:22

so maybe we can start with

9:24

with what we used to know

9:26

what were the prior protein guidelines

9:28

and you know how has that

9:30

changed a little bit especially very

9:32

recently yeah I mean well I will

9:35

say just to start off is things haven't

9:37

changed that much like recently recently like we've

9:39

been recommending higher protein for athletes for a

9:41

while now and there's some new research that

9:43

we'll I'm sure get into but yes for

9:46

the general public there's something called the RDA

9:48

or the recommended daily allowance and that is

9:50

point eight grams of protein per kilogram of

9:52

body weight I know we don't always work

9:55

in kilograms but that's what it is and

9:57

and that is a guideline for you know

9:59

relative sedentary, healthy people. And when

10:01

I say sedentary, I just mean you're

10:03

sitting on a couch all day, you're just

10:06

doing kind of normal life activities, but

10:08

you're not like intentionally exercising, right? And this

10:10

is the amount that's needed to maintain

10:12

nitrogen balance or really just to prevent clinical

10:14

protein deficiency. But this amount really doesn't

10:16

work for many parts of the population. And

10:18

I certainly never ever recommend, I mean,

10:21

granted, I work with active people, even people

10:23

who are not very like, or just

10:25

a little bit active, they're still active in

10:27

some capacity. So I'm never recommending this

10:29

amount. But even for someone, for

10:32

let's say they're in midlife or they're a

10:34

little bit older, like we know that's just

10:36

not enough for them. And maybe one gram

10:38

or even 1 .2 as a minimum is

10:40

a better place to start. And then once

10:42

we get into the realm of intentional exercise,

10:44

we know that you just need so much

10:46

more to support health and longevity and muscle

10:48

recovery and just all of the things. Yeah.

10:51

And so that's the part

10:53

that really excites me, especially because,

10:55

I'm now 41 years old. I

10:58

am starting to train a little bit

11:00

more. And I'm actually doing a

11:02

little bit more strength training that I

11:04

have historically. So I'm much more

11:06

interested in what

11:08

are the guidelines or at

11:10

least bare minimum recommendations for

11:13

the person who is training

11:15

a fair amount. So maybe

11:17

we can start with, how

11:19

do you calculate your protein needs? Is

11:21

there a formula for athletes that's

11:23

a little bit different than the general

11:26

population? Yeah. So

11:28

whenever someone asks how much protein do

11:30

I need, it sounds like such a simple

11:32

question. But it's actually one that is

11:34

a little bit more complicated. And I'm sure,

11:36

I know you've had dieticians on before.

11:38

I'm sure you know that it depends

11:40

is our favorite answer, right? And it's true

11:43

though. Yeah, coaches too. It depends in

11:45

the word context. I say pretty much every

11:47

client session like I want to know

11:49

context. So it really depends on who

11:51

you are, what you're doing. So how do

11:53

we define someone who's really active or

11:55

whatever? So what stage of

11:57

life you're in? Are you injured or healthy?

12:00

you know, how do you eat? Are you a vegan

12:02

or vegetarian? Do you eat animal proteins? There are

12:04

so many things that we want to consider. And then

12:06

when we look at, you

12:08

know, so, and this is why, you know, individualized

12:10

nutrition is so important. It's also why we,

12:12

like, I function and all the dietitians for the

12:14

most part, like, we will always give you

12:16

a range. We're not going to sit there and

12:18

be like, you should have 100 grams a

12:20

day. Like, we will give you ranges because we

12:22

always want to be flexible within our nutrition and

12:24

not so dogmatic. And, you know, things, things are

12:27

in flux. And as you know, as a coach,

12:29

like, you're doing different types of training in different

12:31

weeks, you're in different phases. So, I mean, there's

12:33

just so many things to keep in mind, right?

12:35

So, you know, with that said,

12:37

there is research that we can use as

12:39

kind of a starting point and to

12:41

give these kind of broad ranges. And then

12:43

within that, like when I'm working one

12:45

to one with a client, we will give

12:48

a range within that range, because these

12:50

ranges are quite big. So if we look

12:52

at, for instance, there is an older

12:54

paper, but the ISSN position stand on protein

12:56

and exercise us back from 2017, that

12:58

gives a range of about 1 .4 grams

13:00

to two grams. Again, this is gram per

13:02

kilogram of body weight of protein per

13:04

day. That's really what we need based on

13:06

the research to build and maintain muscle

13:08

mass to support recovery for most exercising

13:11

people. Now, again, that's pretty broad. So

13:13

what do we even mean by that?

13:15

But it's a starting point. And so

13:17

like within that, then we can look

13:19

at, okay, well, maybe if I'm working with

13:21

someone who is training for a half

13:23

marathon, and maybe they're doing some strength

13:25

training and, you know, but again, not

13:27

like nothing too high volume, nothing too

13:29

crazy, like maybe we're more in that

13:31

like 1 .4 to 1 .6 range. If

13:33

I'm working with someone who's doing a

13:35

marathon or ultra marathon or long course

13:37

triathlon, maybe they're putting in more hours,

13:39

more volume were potentially, you know, maybe

13:41

we're in more like in that 1

13:43

.6 to 2 range. In some cases,

13:46

like if an athlete, and again, this

13:48

is not an injury setting, but in some

13:50

cases, if someone is in a really

13:52

high volume of training and they're putting in

13:54

so many hours, there might be a

13:56

period of time where we are pushing up

13:58

protein further. But we always have to consider,

14:00

like we never want to look at one

14:02

macronuturate in a vacuum, we have to zoom

14:04

out and think, okay, well, what about the

14:07

other nutrients? Because the last thing I want

14:09

is for an athlete to be so hyper

14:11

focused on protein, and I see this all the

14:13

time, where they're so hyper focused on one thing

14:15

that they're just not getting in the

14:18

other things they need. And of course,

14:20

as you know, carbohydrates are so, so

14:22

important. One of the most important things,

14:24

especially for, you know, endurance athletes, and

14:26

we think about, you know, getting in

14:28

fats and other micro nutrients and just

14:30

all the other things we need in

14:32

our body to feel good, perform, I'll be

14:35

healthy. So, you know, we take these, it's

14:37

a big kind of puzzle that we're building

14:39

together of like, okay, like what are some

14:41

ranges of protein that makes for you at

14:43

this point in time based on? your food

14:45

preferences and what else is going on in

14:48

your body, your health and fitness goals, etc.

14:50

And then we also think about, again, that

14:52

real life piece of, hey, like, do you

14:54

have an appetite for all this protein?

14:56

Like, how can we get it in? Like,

14:58

we have to apply it to real food,

15:00

we have to take those numbers and then

15:03

think, can you still get in the carbohydrates

15:05

union? So there's a lot of things to

15:07

consider. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

15:09

certainly, even though we're doing a

15:12

podcast that is exclusively focused

15:14

here on protein, let's not forget

15:16

about the other macronutrients, especially because

15:18

carbohydrate is arguably the more important

15:21

macronutrient for runners. It's going to

15:23

fuel our efforts while protein is

15:26

more in line with helping us

15:28

recover from those efforts. So, Claire,

15:30

if I'm understanding you. It sounds

15:32

like about 1.4 to 2.2

15:35

grams of carbohydrates of protein,

15:37

getting my macros confused here,

15:40

per kilogram of body weight,

15:42

depending on training load and

15:44

in your personal situation. Would that

15:47

be a fair summary of what

15:49

we just discussed? Yeah, I'd say

15:51

for most of the athletes,

15:53

like especially if I'm working

15:55

with my endurance people, we're

15:57

hovering around that 1.6 number.

15:59

and it might be higher, but it's

16:02

around, I start around 1.6, and

16:04

then for people who are a

16:06

little less active, I mean, sometimes

16:08

we're going down to 1.2, but

16:10

maybe we're hovering around, we're like

16:12

1.4, so yeah, it's somewhere around

16:15

there, and then in case you

16:17

need like... if it's helpful to

16:19

hear it, grams of protein per

16:21

pound of body weight, so that

16:23

1.4 to 2 grams per kilogram

16:25

from that ISSN paper is 0.6

16:27

to 0.9 grams per pound, just

16:30

in case you want to hear

16:32

that, you can of course calculate

16:34

it, but I'll throw it out

16:36

there. But yeah, that's roughly where

16:38

I'm at. And then again, thinking about,

16:41

yeah, there might be times where,

16:43

let's say you are injured, right. So if

16:45

we're in an injury setting, we there's a

16:47

broad range like so if you look at

16:50

the evidence like we're in that like 1.6

16:52

to even like 2.5 where you go so

16:54

we're going like a higher range and then

16:56

let's talk about what kind of injury and

16:58

we're not going to go too far this

17:00

whole it's a whole separate discussion but just

17:02

for the sake of our conversation like let's

17:04

say you got surgery and you are mobilized,

17:07

like you really need to be in that

17:09

2 to 2.5 grand per kilogram range. So

17:11

just to show that there are all these

17:13

different settings and situations where our protein

17:15

needs can fluctuate and even, let's say

17:17

you're not injured, but maybe it's like

17:20

an off-season, you're taking a little time

17:22

off after a big race, you're less

17:24

active, and you want to maintain muscle

17:27

mass. That's also a great time to

17:29

go up in protein needs. might want

17:31

to bump up your protein there, or

17:34

another instance might be if you're trying

17:36

to build muscle and you're in a

17:38

slight caloric deficit, like your protein needs

17:40

really need to be high there too.

17:43

So there definitely are fluctuations, but

17:45

again, if we're just trying to get like

17:47

a really easy takeaway, I think that

17:49

like 1.6-ish to 1.8, maybe up to

17:51

2, is a really good place, especially

17:53

for interns athletes. Yeah, that's great. And

17:55

I think too, just the general

17:58

guideline that the more your training. the

18:00

more you likely need because you just

18:02

have higher demands on your body. You

18:04

also mentioned if you have an injury

18:06

or if you're recovering from a surgery.

18:09

And so, you know, I'd love to

18:11

ask you what type of runner might

18:13

be a good candidate for the higher

18:15

ranges of these protein needs. So for

18:17

example, I'm thinking about, you know,

18:19

an older runner. Now that I'm 41,

18:22

I'm a master's athlete, I know that

18:24

I've got to be strength training, I'm

18:26

losing muscle mass and strength every year

18:29

if I don't do anything. Muscle protein

18:31

synthesis also is more difficult, the older

18:33

you get. So you kind of just

18:36

need to consume more to absorb it

18:38

and properly kind of deploy it in

18:40

your body. So I'm curious like. What

18:43

do you tell the older runner? And

18:45

is there different guidelines for the 45

18:47

year old compared to the 70 year

18:49

old? Yeah, that's a great question.

18:52

And actually, I just had

18:54

on my own podcast, the

18:56

different nerve podcast, it was

18:58

more focused on women, but

19:00

I had another dietician who's

19:02

focused on midlife and beyond

19:04

nutrition for active women. And

19:06

we were talking about protein

19:09

needs and perian postmenopause. And yes,

19:11

yes and no. So I think we need to be

19:13

really careful because I'll use an

19:15

example from a client. I've gotten a

19:17

client recently who I won't name the book,

19:19

but she read a book. It was basically

19:21

telling her, you have to eat all

19:24

this protein, dramatically increased her protein intake

19:26

really quickly, and was just following this

19:28

protocol to a T. And it really

19:30

messed up her gut and basically she

19:32

couldn't really eat all these other things.

19:35

And it kind of played into what

19:37

I was talking about with. not eating

19:39

protein at the cost of other

19:41

nutrients, right? And just remembering, yes,

19:43

so the point is like, yes,

19:45

we do need more protein as

19:47

we age, but it's not so

19:49

dramatic as we're thinking. Like when

19:52

I'm thinking about the person who

19:54

needs like, because I think what

19:56

gets thrown around a lot is

19:58

that whole 2.2 or 2. grams

20:00

per kilogram I'm at right like

20:02

people are thinking about like oh this

20:04

really upper-end range and when I'm thinking

20:06

about that athlete that's more like someone

20:09

who's just putting in a lot of

20:11

miles a lot of hours you know

20:13

doing loads of strength training I'm thinking

20:15

about my ultra-runners I'm thinking about my

20:18

ironmen you know full course ironmen athletes

20:20

people who have really really high energy

20:22

needs as well My master's athletes or

20:24

people who are anywhere midlife and up, yes,

20:26

we do want to be making sure we're

20:29

getting adequate protein. But I certainly don't want

20:31

you approaching it from this place of like

20:33

protein at all costs, if that makes sense.

20:35

You know what I mean? Because I think

20:38

the messaging right now protein is in this

20:40

place where... It really has this kind of

20:42

like health halo around it. It feels like

20:44

a lot of clients tell me like it's

20:47

the safe macronutrient to them. And I mean,

20:49

protein is amazing. Of course, we need it.

20:51

It's so important. But we are not consuming

20:53

at all costs. And that's where I keep

20:55

coming back to this idea of, okay, yes,

20:58

we do need to prioritize it. But I

21:00

really want to make sure you're prioritizing all

21:02

the other things. I only say that

21:04

based on, you know, based on, you

21:07

know, athletes not prioritizing other nutrients like

21:09

particularly carbohydrates. So not trying to keep

21:11

making it about carbs I promise Jason.

21:14

But it's just I know I know

21:16

I know I feel a moral obligation

21:18

to keep bringing that into the conversation

21:20

just because of what I the narrative

21:23

I keep seeing around protein and I'm

21:25

sure you see it too. It's just

21:27

everywhere everyone is like trying to put

21:30

protein like everywhere they can. And yes

21:32

it's important but it's not so important

21:34

that all you need to be having

21:36

is like an eight ounce chicken breast with

21:38

hot sauce on it, which is a literal

21:41

entry from a client the other day.

21:43

So. Yeah, hopefully that goes without

21:45

saying that just because we're focusing

21:47

on one macronutrient and talking about

21:50

goals of, you know, intake and things

21:52

like that, that of course doesn't

21:54

mean we should ignore the other

21:56

macronutrients or somehow think that protein

21:58

is more important. than the other

22:00

nutrients. You know, I just did a

22:03

big episode on carb loading. And, you

22:05

know, it was really interesting. And I

22:07

feel like both carbs and protein are

22:09

getting similar treatment right now, where runners

22:11

are just like, oh, wow. The more

22:14

carbs I eat, the faster I can

22:16

go. And the less bonking I'm going

22:18

to experience. And the more protein I

22:20

ate, the more muscle recovery I'm going

22:23

to experience. And I'm just going to

22:25

be, you know, so toned. And I

22:27

can run forever. We are sort of

22:29

talking about the margins to a

22:31

certain extent. You know, it's going

22:34

from 60 grams of carbohydrate in

22:36

your marathon per hour to 75

22:38

or 80 grams. So it's not

22:40

this giant difference. And I think

22:42

the same can be said about

22:44

protein. You know, my experience with

22:47

protein just being like on

22:49

a college team and just being

22:51

around a lot of, you know, higher

22:53

performing runners is that It was just

22:55

an afterthought. And we always thought

22:57

that this was the macronutrient for

22:59

the football team, for the power-lifting

23:01

bros, for the guys in the gym

23:04

who like to make fun of our

23:06

short shorts. This is not the

23:08

macronutrient for us, but I think we're

23:10

finding out that this is actually a

23:12

pretty good deal for us if

23:15

we want to recover, especially at

23:17

some of these. times in our

23:19

training and in our life, like

23:21

if we are getting older or

23:23

if we're training for an ultramarathon.

23:25

What about someone who's dealing with

23:27

a specific issue? Like let's say

23:29

they do have Let's say a

23:32

muscle strain and then let's talk

23:34

about a totally different issue like

23:36

over training syndrome. Is extra protein

23:38

going to be helpful in either

23:40

one of these situations? Yes, yes,

23:42

definitely. I mean staying on top

23:44

of consistent intake is incredibly important.

23:46

I'd say in any injury setting

23:49

regardless or over training any of

23:51

these things and actually just in any

23:53

situation, it's, you know, I didn't mention

23:55

this earlier, it's worth saying that if

23:57

your energy intake is not adequate, the

24:00

protein piece, it's not that it's unimportant

24:02

or irrelevant, but it's certainly secondary.

24:04

So it's really making sure that you're

24:06

consuming enough total energy into your

24:08

body so that you can actually use

24:10

the protein that you're consuming for

24:12

muscle building and not for energy, right?

24:14

So that's just a quick thing

24:16

to mention. But yeah, I mean, certainly

24:18

in any injury setting we want

24:20

to be staying on top of our

24:22

protein needs. And certainly, as I

24:24

mentioned before, if you're suddenly going from

24:26

regularly training and then you're suddenly

24:28

stopping, so you're taking rest

24:30

or you're doing a little bit less,

24:33

really one of the priorities is maintaining

24:35

lean body mass, so in any injury

24:37

setting, that's really what we're going for.

24:39

And as I said, depending on the

24:41

type of injuries, whether it's like a

24:43

muscle strain or something more serious, we're

24:45

obviously gonna be going for different amounts

24:47

of protein, but we do wanna keep

24:49

protein high to really keep that lean body

24:51

mass as much as we can and that's

24:53

gonna help with not only the healing process but

24:55

also return to sport. And there are a

24:57

number of other nutrients that are really key if

25:00

you have a muscle strain or something

25:02

like that, that's important. With overtraining, that's

25:05

when those things were, yeah,

25:07

there's like overtraining, there's also

25:10

underfueling and which one is it?

25:12

And we can kind of talk a little

25:14

more about that, but with that as well,

25:16

yes. I mean, just continuing with

25:18

consistent intake. And a lot of

25:20

times those people, to be perfectly

25:22

honest, a lot of times those

25:25

people are not consuming adequate nutrition

25:27

and that's not always what got

25:29

them there because obviously overtraining is

25:31

different from say low energy availability,

25:33

although they're often sometimes together, but

25:35

it is different. But I think

25:38

just paying attention to what kind of

25:40

got you there and then

25:42

obviously correcting those nutrition gaps and

25:44

then protein is a huge piece

25:46

of that, right? Just getting the

25:48

regular nutrition in. You said something

25:50

really interesting that I wanted

25:52

to highlight, which was let's make

25:55

sure that you're eating enough

25:57

total energy so that the protein

25:59

can actually. go to maintaining your

26:01

lean mass. Does that mean that

26:03

if you're in an energy deficit,

26:05

so let's maybe say you're trying

26:07

to lose weight or you're just

26:09

not eating well while you're training

26:11

and you're in this state of

26:13

low energy availability, does that then

26:15

mean that that protein is just

26:17

not really being used for what

26:20

we think it's being used for

26:22

in the body? So it's not

26:24

building our muscle, it's not maintaining

26:26

that mass. What is it being

26:28

used for in that case? Yeah,

26:30

so protein can be broken down

26:32

in part to glucose, right? So

26:34

our body needs or wants glucose

26:36

is a very important energy source.

26:38

And so we talk about like

26:40

using protein, essentially you eat something

26:42

with protein, it's broken down into

26:44

all the different amino acids. There's

26:47

no like long term storage for

26:49

protein as there is with carbohydrate

26:51

or fat, right? So it just

26:53

kind of forms this amino acid

26:55

pool and then some can be

26:57

used for muscle building, some can

26:59

be used for other tissues, other

27:01

proteins, neurotransmitters, whatever. And then some

27:03

can be used for energy and

27:05

then some can be converted to

27:07

fat even if there's an excess,

27:09

let's say there was an excess.

27:11

If there isn't an excess and

27:13

you're consuming protein and let's especially

27:16

let's say you're not getting enough

27:18

calories and certainly if you're not

27:20

getting enough carbs. So this is

27:22

where carbs become so important to

27:24

also to maintaining the body mass

27:26

and just to general health and

27:28

well being and bone health and

27:30

just you name it. We can

27:32

start to lose muscle because whether

27:34

it's breaking out the protein consume

27:36

or breaking down the protein, the

27:38

muscle in our body. So we

27:40

start to lose muscle mass and

27:43

that's obviously never something we want.

27:45

Yeah, so probably a good lesson

27:47

is to always eat enough and

27:49

then make sure that we're dialing

27:51

in these macronutrient ranges because if

27:53

we're worrying about protein or even

27:55

carbohydrate before we're worrying about energy

27:57

availability and our total total energy

27:59

balance, it seems like we're putting

28:01

the cart before the horse. Exactly.

28:03

And in my experience, people tend

28:05

to get really fixated on something. It

28:07

might be like the latest supplement

28:09

or the whatever, or just something that's

28:11

kind of a little bit small,

28:13

but maybe it's a little bit more

28:15

exciting and interesting. And it's like,

28:17

whoa, whoa, whoa, you're not eating consistently.

28:19

You're not eating enough. And then

28:22

like when we think about protein, honestly,

28:24

what I usually see the most

28:26

is that it's inconsistency. They'll

28:28

be like, cool, maybe they're taking their protein

28:30

shake after a run, or they're on top

28:32

of a post workout, or not, not always.

28:34

But let's just say an example they are,

28:36

and then I'll see them have lunch and

28:39

it's like a salad, and there's some carbs

28:41

in there, but no protein source. Or

28:43

a different person might have a salad

28:45

with a protein source and no carb.

28:47

So it's like there's just this inconsistency

28:49

and not understanding how to build a

28:51

balanced meal. So I

28:53

mean, that's one of the first things I

28:55

do with people is like, we need to

28:58

understand how to build a balanced meal that,

29:00

yes, has adequate protein for you and your

29:02

needs, that has the right amount of

29:04

carbohydrates that we're including some color in your

29:06

plate, so fruits and veggies, we're getting fats

29:08

in, we're doing all these things. And then

29:10

there's something called athlete performance plates, a great

29:12

visual tool, because yes, we throw out numbers,

29:15

but numbers mean nothing to most people. They're like,

29:17

well, what does that mean for like, how do

29:19

we translate that into actual food? Or what does

29:21

that look like on my plate or in my

29:23

bowl? Again, if we're thinking about how to make

29:25

things actually happen in real life when you're busy

29:27

and you don't have time to deal with things,

29:29

that's what we have to do is give people

29:31

those types of tools. So performance plates are really

29:33

handy because it shows you, okay, this

29:36

is how my plate shifts on an easy

29:38

day, a moderate day, a hard day, and

29:40

then also in the context of my training.

29:42

So whether you're doing like a 20 mile

29:44

a week or a 40 mile a week

29:46

or more or whatever, so it's learning how

29:48

to adjust, how to be flexible, being

29:51

flexible with your nutrition is everything. And

29:54

that just goes for like living your life,

29:56

but also understanding that your needs are never static.

29:58

Yeah, I think where nature is

30:01

ultimate omnivore, you know, you can

30:03

look at populations of people around

30:05

the world and we can survive

30:07

off so many different varied diets

30:09

and so that flexibility is just

30:11

so built into who we are. You know, we've

30:14

been talking a lot about who

30:16

needs more protein, everyone's talking about

30:18

getting more protein. Are there

30:20

any populations of runners in

30:22

particular? who you might recommend stop eating so

30:25

much protein. Can we go on the

30:27

other side of things? Like, are there

30:29

anyone who's just overdoing it? Yeah, and

30:31

that kind of goes back to what

30:33

I was saying. So when I see

30:35

somebody who is not getting enough total

30:37

energy to their body, but they're like

30:39

crushing the protein to every meal, because

30:41

like we see this, whether it's on

30:43

social media or the latest book from

30:45

somebody, like protein just has this. thing

30:47

going on right now and as you said

30:49

like carbs a lot of people are pushing

30:51

carbs too and it's just like we just

30:54

got to be aware of all the nutrients

30:56

like we have to recognize that One thing

30:58

is not necessarily more important than the other

31:00

we have to kind of zoom out and

31:02

take a look at all the things that

31:04

support us So if someone is coming to

31:06

me and they're just they're going so hard

31:09

on the protein that they're saying like I'm

31:11

just really full like I just don't have

31:13

I'm not hungry for other things or if

31:15

it's like adding stress. So what I would

31:17

never ever want to do with somebody is

31:19

give them suggestions or guidelines or whatever and

31:22

have it add stress to their life. Again,

31:24

most of my clients, I say the bulk

31:26

of my clients are recreational athletes and maybe

31:28

they're highly competitive, but they're still working full-time

31:31

jobs and doing all the things like they

31:33

don't need more stress in their life. That's

31:35

not my job. My job is to make

31:37

things less stressful. So it's making sure that.

31:40

they feel like they are able to make

31:42

room for things and able to eat well

31:44

in a way that feels good to them.

31:47

So if someone's coming to me just

31:49

overdoing the protein and then like

31:51

maybe they're getting like 40 grams

31:53

of protein or maybe higher in their

31:55

meal but their carbs are like barely

31:58

there, then we got to adjust. that

32:00

because we only have so much

32:02

room in our stomach. Or maybe

32:04

what we're doing is we're adding

32:07

like a liquid source of nutrition.

32:09

If like, maybe that level of

32:11

protein intake is appropriate for them,

32:14

but they don't have room, then,

32:16

hey, let's look at other strategies.

32:18

Let's have a glass of juice.

32:21

Let's do whatever. You know, like

32:23

there are just lots of ways

32:25

to eat. And it's recognizing meal,

32:27

Claire. It is not, but I will say,

32:30

again, we always have to remember, like, one

32:32

meal does not make or break anything, nor

32:34

does one day. So, like, it's okay. Like,

32:36

sometimes I don't have any vegetables all day

32:38

long, and I don't drop dead. You know

32:40

what I mean? So, like, we just have

32:42

to, again, that flexibility piece and being able

32:44

to zoom out and look at the bigger

32:46

picture of your diet and how you feel

32:48

and your health goals and all of that.

32:50

It's all good. It's good to

32:52

know that even the dietitian sometimes

32:55

doesn't eat her vegetables. Yes, it

32:57

is true. I've been known to add

32:59

cereal for dinner sometimes. I had lunch

33:01

with a dietitian once and I think

33:03

I got a soda and I was

33:05

very self-conscious about... about doing that in

33:08

front of a dietician, but she assured

33:10

me it was totally fine. You know,

33:12

I think that's like people have this belief

33:14

that we're like these perfect eaters or something

33:16

or we're so judgy and we're not at

33:18

all. Like we love all foods, and I

33:20

mean I can't speak for everybody, but certainly

33:22

like the way I approach food. I love

33:24

all foods. I want everyone to enjoy all

33:26

foods. There are no foods that are like

33:28

off limits or something. Yeah. Just a

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34:57

let's get super specific. And I

34:59

know myself best, so we're going

35:01

to use myself as a case

35:03

study. Okay. Claire, I am a

35:05

41 -year -old male. I weigh 145

35:07

pounds at 5 '7". I run about 40

35:09

miles a week. I'd like to run a

35:11

little bit more. I'm lifting

35:13

two to three times per

35:15

week. I would like to

35:17

maybe gain a little bit of muscle. How

35:20

much protein would you advise that

35:22

I get per day? Yeah.

35:24

So we definitely want

35:26

you on the higher end

35:29

of protein because, well, first of

35:31

all, at that level of

35:33

exercise, your carbs need to be

35:35

in a good place as well,

35:37

right, to support that. So

35:39

that's really important. Your protein, we

35:41

would want to have, yeah, I

35:43

definitely wouldn't go below 1 .6 for you. Maybe

35:46

we're more in that, we'll

35:49

say like 1 .6 to 2. So

35:51

maybe we're pushing like 1 .8

35:53

or higher for you. And

35:56

yeah, and we're

35:58

doing, I think that would be a good place. to be.

36:00

In terms of actual protein,

36:02

I cannot do math in

36:05

my head. So I'd have

36:07

to bust out my calculator.

36:09

Maybe 1.8-ish. Oh, you have

36:11

your phone. Okay, cool. I

36:13

have the calculator right here.

36:15

So I'm 145 pounds, which if

36:17

we divide by 2.2, I am

36:19

65.9 kilograms, which means...

36:22

Let's do 1.8. Let's just say

36:24

1.9. How would you feel with

36:26

me being more aggressive? You're very

36:28

cliche, distance runner, I'm very thin,

36:31

I've always been very thin. I

36:33

remember when I was in high

36:35

school, my pediatrician was like, actually,

36:37

keep him drinking whole milk, he's

36:39

really skinny. So it's like one

36:41

of those guys, so maybe I

36:43

can go a little bit higher.

36:45

I'm looking at about 125 grams

36:47

of protein per day, which does

36:49

sound a little bit intimidating. Really?

36:51

125, so that to me doesn't sound too

36:54

too high. 125 grams? I don't really track

36:56

any of this so I might be getting around

36:58

that and just not even know it and just

37:00

think that I might be getting less. So case

37:02

study here. Okay, so like this is like if

37:04

you were my client then we would be going

37:06

through like what does a typical day of eating

37:08

look like right? And so we can think about

37:10

Where are the gaps? So like if

37:12

I'm evaluating this, as I said, I

37:14

want to make sure, like it's not

37:17

protein at all costs, so I'm also

37:19

making sure that there is room for

37:21

all the other things. We can bring

37:23

in smoothies and other easy ways to

37:25

get protein in, like proteins, I'm a

37:27

big fan of protein supplements, not overdoing

37:29

it, but when it's... easy and helpful and

37:31

necessary like we can use those things but

37:33

you can also you can absolutely reach that

37:36

through real food if you wanted to or

37:38

I say real food hopefully it's whatever you

37:40

want to say but like if you're doing

37:42

like I mean you mentioned a big ribby

37:45

steak like I mean if you're doing

37:47

I don't know five six ounces of a chicken

37:49

breast like you're easily getting over 40 grams

37:51

of protein in there and you know you're

37:53

already a good chunk on your way so

37:55

I think it all depends on your eating

37:57

style what you like what you like to

37:59

eat, you know, what you like to drink,

38:01

and are you a person who enjoys protein-rich

38:04

foods, you know, so we kind of

38:06

like want to go there too. And

38:08

then the very, I mean, I should

38:10

have started with this, the most important

38:12

thing to evaluate if I'm working with

38:14

someone is where are you at now? So

38:16

yes, we can set goals if we feel

38:18

like it's appropriate. I might lower that amount

38:21

if it turns out right now, you're like

38:23

way low compared to that. Like if it

38:25

turns out you're consuming... well under 100 grams

38:27

like you know maybe we'll just be like

38:30

cool let's add a little bit to this

38:32

meal let's add a little bit to this

38:34

snack and let's choose this instead of that

38:37

in a meal and to like bump it

38:39

up a little bit we don't need to

38:41

like get somewhere immediately I think this is

38:43

where like people are always in such a

38:45

rush to like oh this is what I

38:47

need to do I need to do like

38:50

right now it's like well you can also

38:52

take baby steps and again we want to

38:54

evaluate what works for you and how it

38:56

Okay, I don't even know what I'm

38:58

doing, but hey, you know, every

39:00

lunch and every dinner I'm having

39:02

either chicken or fish or meat

39:04

or tofu or whatever, you know,

39:06

you're kind of regularly having these

39:08

things and for breakfast I have

39:10

yogurt or eggs or, you know,

39:12

some other protein thing or maybe

39:15

it's coming out that like, oh,

39:17

I'm just actually having like, like,

39:19

like, you know, lower or lower

39:21

protein meal for breakfast. And like

39:23

so there can be areas that

39:25

we can work on to bump it

39:27

up a little bit. So those are the

39:29

kinds of things that I would take into

39:31

account. But given your goals and

39:34

given your level of exercise, yeah,

39:36

probably what you would be in

39:38

that range. I think, I mean,

39:40

definitely would not go under 100 grams

39:42

for you. Yeah. And I really like

39:45

your point about doing this in baby

39:47

steps because... I think about a lot in

39:49

terms of mileage. I could sit here as a

39:51

coach and say, oh, you would definitely achieve your

39:53

goal if you could run 60 miles a week,

39:55

but that doesn't mean that you should run 60

39:58

miles this week. It means maybe we can. can

40:00

take small bites of the apple so

40:02

that six months, nine months, or 12

40:04

months from now, you're able to run

40:06

that kind of mileage. Because it's not

40:09

the end all be all, but it

40:11

could be a quite important. arrow in

40:13

your quiver to accomplishing this goal. And

40:15

let's get there strategically, gradually, methodically, and

40:17

in a smart way. Yeah, and I

40:20

want to say one more thing there,

40:22

just because, you know, people listening, I'm sure,

40:24

have listened to other things you mentioned,

40:26

you did a show on carb loading and,

40:28

you know, we apply this to everything.

40:30

So if you are like barely consuming carbohydrates

40:32

and you're like, oh, I need to

40:34

carbolode for my event, but it turns out

40:37

like in your everyday eating, not eating

40:39

very much carbs and suddenly you're trying to

40:41

reach like eight or ten grams per

40:43

kilogram, you're going to feel horrible. So again,

40:45

remembering that we don't want to be

40:47

like making these massive leaps anytime in our

40:50

nutrition, we want to gradually work up to

40:52

things. So you're going to feel so much

40:54

better doing that. I'm really interested in hearing

40:56

about some of your strategies for increasing protein

40:58

intake, especially for the athlete who might not

41:01

need to increase it too much. You look

41:03

at their daily eating. habits and

41:05

you say, well, you're actually eating

41:07

a fair amount of protein throughout

41:09

the day. It's, you know, you don't

41:11

really have any meals that are protein

41:14

deficient, but we do need to bump

41:16

it up by, let's say, 10, 15,

41:18

20%. What are some of those really

41:20

practical strategies? You know, you mentioned, hey,

41:23

maybe we need to add a little

41:25

bit here actually mean. Are you throwing

41:27

certain types of food onto a salad?

41:30

Like, let's get kind of nitty gritty

41:32

here. Yeah, and so again, it'll

41:34

depend on your eating style. And

41:36

there are lots of different animal

41:38

and plant proteins that we can

41:40

choose from. And I'm definitely of

41:42

the belief that there's no one right

41:44

way to eat. And you can be

41:46

fully plant-based. You can be an omnivore.

41:48

There are lots of ways to do

41:50

it. But yeah, so I mean, here's

41:52

like a great, like a really easy

41:54

example. Let's say you love peanut butter

41:57

toast. Well, you can sprinkle a tablespoon

41:59

of hemp seeds. in there, right? So it's

42:01

just a little bit. You know, let's say

42:03

that you enjoy eggs. So maybe you're having

42:05

two or three whole eggs. Well, eggs

42:07

are great, but we know that they're not

42:09

like, it's not the same as having like

42:11

chicken or fish or something. Like one

42:14

egg has about six grams of protein, depending

42:16

on maybe seven, depending on the size. So

42:18

if you're doing three whole eggs and you're

42:20

getting 18, maybe 20 grams of protein

42:22

in there, that may be adequate. It may

42:25

not be for you. Maybe you're adding some

42:27

egg whites to that. Maybe you're adding some

42:29

cheese. Maybe you're choosing a whole grain

42:31

bread that's gonna bump up the protein a

42:34

little bit. Like they're just like little things

42:36

we can think about. And what I call

42:38

that is layering. So we're layering proteins. It's

42:40

meaning that we don't have to just get

42:42

all our protein from like one single source

42:44

where maybe you're including some like a... cup

42:46

of chick bees or half cup of chickens

42:48

in your salad that's going to boost not

42:50

only carbohydrate and fiber but also protein you

42:52

know so it's just maybe you're choosing something

42:54

like a ferro or a quinoa again it's

42:56

not like a ton of protein but it's

42:58

getting a little bit more and of course

43:00

because as I said we're not only just

43:02

thinking about protein it's going to give you

43:04

other nutrients right so we're kind of choosing

43:06

these nice foods that are giving some bang

43:08

for buck in terms of nutritional content Other

43:10

things, you know, I mean Greek yogurt, I feel

43:12

like it's so popular, but you know, if you

43:14

might be reaching for like a string cheese and

43:17

a fruit, maybe reaching for a Greek yogurt and

43:19

a fruit, so we can kind of do little

43:21

swaps. It may be as simple as, hey, normally

43:23

I have three or four ounces of chicken, okay,

43:25

we'll have five or six ounces of chicken. If

43:28

that doesn't feel manageable to you, then we can

43:30

look at other things. Sometimes it can be, like,

43:32

like I love, chocolate milk, like fair life chocolate

43:34

milk, has 13 grams, and I'm not sponsored by

43:36

them or anything, I just love that product, but

43:38

it has 13 grams of protein per cup. So

43:40

let's say you're really full, or you're just, you're like, oh, I

43:43

don't want to eat anything else, like you could have a glass

43:45

of that, a glass of kefir, or kefir, however you say it,

43:47

does drinkable yogurt. That's a really, like, liquid nutrition, is a big

43:49

staple, and I know, and I know my diet, and I know

43:51

my diet, it's, I know my diet. It's like, it's like, it's

43:53

like, it's like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

43:55

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

43:57

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

43:59

like, like, is an issue or just like

44:02

hitting, because some people have to

44:04

such high energy needs. It's hard

44:06

to get the volume in. So things

44:08

like that are really handy. Yeah,

44:10

there was just a really funny

44:12

conversation on Megan and David Roche's

44:15

podcast, the swap podcast, and they

44:17

were talking about the energy needs

44:19

of really high calorie athletes who

44:22

are. you know, exercising 5,000 worth

44:24

of calories per day. And, you

44:26

know, the idea that they're going

44:28

to get all those calories through

44:31

healthy options is kind of laughable.

44:33

Like, you literally can't do it.

44:35

You literally can't. And it's, yeah,

44:37

and that's fine, you know, and when

44:40

you have athletes like that who just,

44:42

I mean, again, I think about my

44:44

like, Iron Man athletes, I think about

44:46

my ultra runners who are just really

44:49

like putting loads of training. There's

44:51

just so much more extra room for

44:53

the extras, you know, so it's just

44:55

and we think about like what's the

44:57

easy easiest way to get this stuff

45:00

in and and That's okay. You know

45:02

again energy needs I'd so much

45:04

rather like you meet your energy

45:06

needs and you be preoccupied about

45:08

making the like right choice or

45:10

the healthiest choice or anything like

45:12

that Yeah, I remember when I was

45:14

running like 85 miles a week with

45:16

two very hard workouts in a 20

45:18

to 22 mile long run I could

45:20

eat whatever I wanted in whatever quantity

45:22

I wanted. You know what, one of

45:24

my favorite things was Claire. I used

45:26

to like to quote, crush a sleeve

45:28

of Oreos in a cup of whole

45:30

milk. And if we actually did the...

45:32

the sugar count on that it might

45:34

be kind of disgusting and not saying

45:36

that that's a good thing but yeah

45:38

like you said I have a lot

45:40

more wiggle room especially when I was like

45:42

23 years old and exercising at that level

45:45

you just you have to fuel the exercise

45:47

first and then you can worry about the

45:49

you know the the balance and the micro

45:51

nutrient later and I mean the thing that

45:53

we're getting at we're getting at we're not

45:55

recommending obviously like go eat a sleeve of

45:57

Oreos but what we're getting at is that

45:59

with it would be quite tasty. It

46:01

would be tasty and if that's your

46:03

jam, go for it. But you know,

46:05

what I'm saying is that some of

46:07

these more like health promoting foods are

46:09

full of fiber. And you know, when

46:11

we look at just the volume of

46:13

food that someone has to eat, so

46:16

the amount of food someone has to

46:18

eat, like we don't want to be

46:20

choosing tons of really high fiber foods,

46:22

it's just going to be so much

46:24

harder to get the energy you need

46:26

and just all the food that you

46:28

need that you need. less I don't want

46:30

to say less helpful foods, but maybe

46:32

they're a little bit more processed or

46:34

simple carbohydrates, whatever they are, some of

46:37

these other foods that are just easier

46:39

to get into your body because you

46:41

have more space for them. Claire, when

46:43

you're thinking about where to get your

46:45

protein, are there any sources of protein

46:48

that you generally advise people to think

46:50

twice about or stay away from or just

46:52

be aware of some of the... the secondary

46:54

issues that eating something might bring into your

46:57

life. You know, like I'm thinking, you know,

46:59

like I mentioned a rib eye earlier, great

47:01

source of protein, but also a very great

47:03

source of fat. So that's just something to

47:06

be aware of. And I'm curious if you

47:08

have any thoughts on that issue. Yeah, absolutely.

47:10

So I mean, and there are a number

47:12

of things going on here. So. Typically, we

47:14

are recommending leaner sources of proteins, so

47:17

if you are consuming a lot of

47:19

animal proteins, we do want to be

47:21

aware of your saturated fat intake. And,

47:23

you know, generally speaking... you know, red meat

47:25

is linked to higher risk of certain cancers.

47:28

We know that too much saturated fat intake,

47:30

like what you get from meat and poultry

47:32

and all that does have a health impact.

47:34

And so we want to be aware of

47:36

those things. We also want to be aware

47:38

from, again, we were talking about what you

47:41

have room for. If you're consuming like a

47:43

really fatty cut of meat or a lot,

47:45

and especially if it's a large quantity of

47:47

it, again, that's really filling. That's really filling.

47:49

Yes, it's for all these functions, it's also

47:51

very satiating, but so is fat and so

47:54

is fiber. So we talked about fiber filling

47:56

you up, protein fills you up and is

47:58

satisfying, but fat is very, very... It has

48:00

a lot more energy, more calories

48:02

per gram compared to protein and

48:04

carbohydrates. So again, we're thinking from the

48:06

health impact of just having the saturated

48:08

fat and having that food, but then

48:11

we're also thinking about what do you

48:13

have room for if you're consuming so

48:15

much fat. you know, so you might be

48:17

getting a little too many calories from fat.

48:19

And again, I'm thinking, I'm not thinking about

48:21

the person that has like a bajillion calories

48:24

to eat for a day. I'm thinking more

48:26

about like your everyday person who's maybe eating

48:28

a little bit less than that 5,000 calorie

48:30

diet and doesn't have, you know, this huge

48:33

budget. for whatever they want to eat. And

48:35

in that case, like, yeah, we do want

48:37

to make sure we're saving room for all

48:39

the other things. So yeah, typically, I'm not

48:42

saying you shouldn't eat red meat or anything

48:44

like that, but what I am saying

48:46

is that it's very beneficial just

48:48

from an exposure standpoint to very

48:50

what you're getting. So varieties is

48:52

just such an important concept. Generally

48:54

speaking with nutrition, whether we're talking

48:56

about fruits and vegetables, grains, grains,

48:58

whatever. But with proteins, it's also

49:01

important to get a You know,

49:03

and again, we have to work

49:05

within people's preferences and such, but

49:07

you know, I recommend getting a

49:09

wide variety of things. So don't

49:11

only just have fish all the

49:13

time. That's also not good or

49:15

healthy, right? So don't, like, I see

49:17

people on both ends of the spectrum

49:19

where they're, like, never, ever having fish.

49:21

And we're like, hey, we need to

49:23

talk about your Omega 3, your fatty

49:25

acid intake, because that's important, you know,

49:28

especially for athletes, really, really for athletes,

49:30

really for health. Getting a variety of

49:32

things is important. Working those plant foods

49:34

in, hugely important for health. We know

49:36

that's going to get you fiber, it's

49:38

going to help support gut health, it's

49:40

going to get some micro nutrients in.

49:42

I mean, there's just a number of

49:44

things that plant foods do, and there

49:46

are some great plant proteins that we

49:48

can work in that can boost it,

49:50

so that maybe you're not like, if you

49:52

enjoy the animal proteins, you don't have to

49:54

like, cut them out entirely, but you could

49:57

consume less. So if you're incorporating beans and

49:59

whole grains. and such in a meal, not

50:01

seeds, whatever, maybe you don't need to have

50:03

the six ounces of chicken or meat or

50:06

whatever, but you can cut it back to

50:08

two or three depending on how much you

50:10

need, you know, so there are lots of

50:12

ways we can do this, but I'm not

50:14

gonna sit here and be like, you should

50:17

never have this food ever, you know, like

50:19

that's not what I'm thinking, just maybe being

50:21

a little wary about certain types of

50:23

foods, and I will say that some

50:26

of the plant alternatives like... wherever

50:28

it's like beyond burger, those types of

50:30

things, I wouldn't overdo those either. Those

50:32

aren't necessarily like some health promoting food.

50:34

It's just a substitute if you want to have

50:36

it here and there fine, but I would kind

50:39

of treat it as I would read meat to

50:41

be honest. Yeah, speaking of plant-based,

50:43

what extra or specific considerations would

50:45

you have for our plant-based listeners

50:47

who want to make sure that

50:49

they're getting enough protein, but, you

50:51

know, recognize that it might be

50:53

a little bit more difficult if

50:55

you're plant-based if you're plant-based. Most

50:57

plant-based protein is is usually not

51:00

absorbed as well as animal protein.

51:02

So I'm wondering if your suggestions

51:04

change for the plant-based athlete, especially

51:06

the number of grams of protein

51:08

recommended per kilogram. Yeah, so for

51:11

my plant-based folks, especially if you're exclusively,

51:13

so if you are vegan in particular,

51:15

because vegetarians, you know, we can still,

51:17

if you're still having dairy and eggs

51:19

and stuff, that's super. helpful and that

51:21

just makes the world a difference when

51:23

I'm meal planning with people. But yeah,

51:25

we definitely want to be a little

51:27

bit on the higher end of protein.

51:29

There, I mean, soy is a, so

51:31

I haven't, I don't think I've used

51:33

this term yet, but like when I

51:35

talk about like high quality protein, what

51:37

I'm talking about is a protein that

51:40

has all nine essential amino acids in

51:42

adequate quantities to, yes, to

51:44

stimulate muscle protein synthesis and do all

51:46

the things that we need in the body.

51:48

And so soy is great. Like soy is

51:50

a good one, but I've had vegans before

51:52

who don't eat soy, and that's really hard.

51:54

You know, that's a really tough one. But

51:57

yeah, soy is really great. Sometimes we get

51:59

people who are... plant-based but again have

52:01

like fish or something so it kind

52:03

of depends on how you're defining plant-based

52:05

plant-based is one of those terms that's

52:07

so loosely defined if at all and

52:10

so some people assume you mean vegan

52:12

some people are like oh well but

52:14

I eat fish and a plant-based so

52:16

we can kind of you know talk

52:18

about like what that means but if

52:20

someone is exclusively eating plant foods then

52:22

yes we want to make sure you are getting

52:24

a little bit more in and what the

52:26

research says is that If you are consuming,

52:29

and again this goes back to eating enough

52:31

total energy in the diet, so if you're

52:33

getting enough total energy into your body and

52:35

you're getting proteins from a variety of places,

52:38

and this is especially important with plant foods

52:40

because not all plant proteins are created equally,

52:42

and they're certainly not the same as animals,

52:44

in terms of, again, the quality or like

52:46

the amino acid profile. So you're getting

52:49

it from all these different places, you

52:51

most likely are meeting your protein needs.

52:53

it becomes tricky with athletes is because

52:56

they have such high protein as we

52:58

just have to be very careful and

53:00

very thoughtful about how we consume protein.

53:02

So in a meal, you know, if

53:04

you're not having soy, or maybe like

53:07

soy in itself, like there are various

53:09

levels of soy, you can have like,

53:11

you know, the very soft kind of

53:13

soy, you can have the extra firm

53:15

high protein version of soy. There are

53:17

lots of different versions. And so depending

53:19

on what you're doing there, you know,

53:22

maybe you're layering in some beans, some

53:24

whole grains. Like this is where layering

53:26

proteins becomes really important. The other thing

53:28

to consider is there's a particular amino

53:30

acid called lusine. It's a branch chain

53:32

amino acid. It's one of the

53:35

essential amino acids. And that's what

53:37

is very important triggering muscle protein

53:39

synthesis. of protein, ideally and especially

53:41

in the recovery setting. It's about

53:43

one to three grams. So animal

53:46

foods just naturally have more lucine

53:48

in them. Like weight protein is

53:50

a very, like we're looking at

53:52

supplements, it's a very lucine-rich, easily

53:55

digestible kind of protein, or lucine

53:57

source. But there are plant sources that

53:59

also. have leucine in them. So

54:01

it's not like we can't get

54:03

this in other ways. It's just

54:06

it's less. And so we have

54:08

to be thoughtful about it. So

54:10

soy is a good one. So

54:12

tofu, soy milk, adzuki beans, lentils,

54:14

buckwheat, pumpkin seeds, just a few

54:16

things. If you do have dairy

54:18

and eggs, so yogurt, eggs, those

54:20

things are great. If you eat

54:22

fish, fish obviously is a good

54:25

one. So there are various ways

54:27

of getting in. In terms of

54:29

digestibility, yes, we definitely don't digest things

54:31

in the same way. So the

54:33

bioavailability is kind of how we

54:35

digest and use and absorb the

54:38

protein, right? So this is

54:40

where kind of getting

54:42

or pairing different plant proteins becomes really important.

54:44

So maybe we're just not relying like, like

54:46

I'll see someone they're like, oh, I

54:48

just had black beans. And like, that's not

54:50

really going to cut it. Because number

54:52

one, if you have increased protein needs, but

54:54

also when we're thinking about getting all

54:56

the different amino acids that we need. So

54:58

it's sometimes all the

55:00

amino acids are present, but not an

55:02

adequate amount. So this is where pairing things

55:04

together becomes really important that increases not

55:06

only the total amount of grams approaching that

55:08

you're getting in that meal, but also

55:10

the whole bioavailability of it. Well,

55:12

that's really helpful to know. Last

55:14

question for you, Claire. And this

55:17

is really for our marathoners,

55:19

our ultra runners, our half marathoners,

55:21

the people who are experiencing a

55:23

pretty decent taper.

55:26

Would you have these athletes change their

55:28

protein intake, especially in the last couple

55:30

of days before their goal race, when

55:32

they are carb loading, when, you know,

55:34

they're taking in more carbohydrate than usual.

55:36

And, you know, I remember you saying

55:38

like, we need to make sure we

55:41

have space for all these macronutrients. And

55:43

if we're kind of changing the dial

55:45

and dialing up the carbs a lot

55:47

more, does that mean that we should

55:49

dial down the protein or keep the

55:51

protein the same, but dial down the

55:53

fat? Like, how do you think about

55:55

all that? Yeah. So I mean, we're

55:57

specifically talking two days before the race. you

56:00

are in the thick of carb loading, right?

56:02

So usually I have my athletes do like, at

56:04

least like a three -day carb load if we're

56:06

talking a marathon or longer. And

56:08

in that case, yeah, I mean,

56:10

carb needs are really, really high and

56:12

it can be hard to get

56:14

that amount in. So it's not that

56:16

we're not having protein but it's

56:19

just not as high of a priority.

56:21

And so the way I like

56:23

to explain to people, we're not eating

56:25

more food, we're just shifting the

56:27

macros around. So we're kind of, we're

56:29

taking the energy away from protein,

56:31

definitely from fat. We're definitely deprioritizing fiber,

56:33

really fiber rich foods, although for

56:35

some people might be tapering it off

56:37

depending on their bowel habits and

56:39

everything. And we're really

56:41

prioritizing carbs. So yeah, this is not

56:43

a time where we're going for a

56:45

two grams per kilogram or any of

56:47

these kind of high numbers. We are

56:49

definitely kind of tapering it off but

56:51

we're including it in enough of a

56:53

way that, you know, you're not starving

56:55

and you feel good and we're not

56:57

just like ditching it completely. Yeah, that's

56:59

a good way of thinking about it.

57:01

Sort of like shifting around the macros

57:03

while eating the same amount of total

57:05

energy or calories. I think that's really

57:07

helpful. Claire, this was super helpful. Is

57:09

there anything I might have missed about

57:11

protein or fueling or kind of rebuilding

57:13

muscle after an injury or a big

57:15

run that I might have missed? Well,

57:17

yeah, I mean, one thing we didn't

57:19

talk about was timing. I think protein

57:21

timing is a really interesting one. There

57:23

was a big study that came out

57:25

in 2023 that definitely caught people's attention

57:27

because it was talking about what happens

57:29

when we give, so it was young

57:31

men in this case that were doing

57:33

resistance training. What happens when we give

57:35

these young men who were doing resistance

57:37

training until they were fatigued 100 grams

57:39

of milk protein versus 25 grams. And

57:41

it was basically kind of challenging this

57:43

long held belief, this recommendation that we

57:45

always have to spread protein intake across

57:47

the day. So kind of this idea

57:49

that we can only quote, quote, use

57:51

so much and the rest is kind

57:53

of like wasted, right? So I don't

57:55

think we got into that yet about

57:57

how protein is kind of used. used

57:59

or absorbed or how much the timing

58:01

piece. But it was an interesting study

58:03

because it was essentially challenging those recommendations

58:05

that we had for a long time

58:07

being like, hey, have a dose of

58:09

20 to 40 grams, which is still

58:11

recommended by the way, but have this

58:13

dose of protein, have it every three

58:15

to four hours, have it across the

58:17

day, don't have too much in one

58:19

sitting, you're not going to able to

58:22

use it for muscle protein synthesis. So

58:24

in the case of this study, it

58:26

showed that actually, I think it was

58:28

like, I want to say off the

58:30

top, man, I want to say it

58:32

was like 85 % of it was actually

58:34

used for tissues, protein synthesis, not just

58:36

muscle, but other tissues in the body

58:38

showing that it wasn't wasted and that

58:40

it was like over the 12 hours

58:42

that they studied it. So it was

58:44

kind of showing this prolonged use of

58:46

the protein. So that was a really

58:48

interesting one. Again, brings up

58:50

lots of questions though of like, okay,

58:52

well, what about in older populations?

58:54

What about in women? What about with

58:56

a different protein source? Because like milk protein,

58:58

what would happen if we did something

59:00

else? There's like lots of

59:02

like, what about an endurance athlete? So there, there are

59:04

lots of questions that come from it. To

59:07

be honest, how did this change

59:09

my recommendations? Not at all.

59:11

So, you know, I talked about

59:13

protein in terms of affecting satiety

59:15

or fullness, right? So I mean,

59:17

there's just so many reasons why we

59:19

want to include protein. In my

59:21

practice, in my experience, what I see

59:23

is there, like we really want to

59:25

take advantage of all eating opportunities. So

59:27

is it practical for the people I

59:29

see at least, to be recommending that

59:32

you have one or two massive doses

59:34

of protein a day? No, not at

59:36

all. It's just not practical. It doesn't

59:38

make sense for pretty much every client

59:40

I've ever seen in my practice. So

59:42

we think about there's more to it

59:44

than just like, is this going to be

59:46

used for muscle protein synthesis? I mean,

59:48

the other thing to keep in mind, and

59:50

I said this before was that we're

59:52

not like wasting protein, you know, it's not

59:55

just being undigested and thrown away. Like our

59:57

body's always using it in some capacity. Maybe

59:59

it's not for protein synthesis, it might

1:00:01

be for energy or fat storage or

1:00:03

something, but we're using in some

1:00:05

capacity. So that's another thing to keep

1:00:07

in mind. But I think the

1:00:09

most practical piece here is when you

1:00:11

go to sit down and have

1:00:13

a meal, or you just have this

1:00:15

window of time, whether it's before

1:00:17

or after a workout. I mean, for

1:00:19

protein, we're talking mostly after a

1:00:21

workout before you head off to work.

1:00:24

Could you skip that meal and

1:00:26

wait a little bit longer and wait

1:00:28

to have breakfast until you get

1:00:30

to work? Yes, you could. But in

1:00:32

a lot of cases, when I

1:00:34

work with people, I'm like, no, prioritize

1:00:36

food now. Have that protein, along

1:00:38

with carbs and fluids and all the

1:00:40

things. Have that as soon as

1:00:42

you can, because once you get to

1:00:44

work, you're distracted and you just

1:00:46

get sucked into meetings. So again, we

1:00:48

take these guidelines and whatever research

1:00:50

we see, we have to then apply

1:00:52

it to real life. And what

1:00:55

is it actually? How does it play

1:00:57

out in people's lives? So whenever

1:00:59

people see headlines like that, I just

1:01:01

want my job is yes to

1:01:03

look at evidence, but then to also

1:01:05

use my experience and just thinking

1:01:07

for more of a practical lens, my

1:01:09

critical thinking skills and think, okay,

1:01:11

well, how does this make sense for

1:01:13

this person? So timing is a

1:01:15

big one with protein. And we didn't

1:01:17

talk about post -workout, like recovering all

1:01:19

that. It is really important. And

1:01:21

granted, the window doesn't close, doesn't shut

1:01:24

right when, if you don't get

1:01:26

it within that hour, everything's going to

1:01:28

end. Recovery is an ongoing process.

1:01:30

I want to send that message. But

1:01:32

then again, what else is going

1:01:34

in your day? And if you don't

1:01:36

eat now, are you really going

1:01:38

to stay on top of it or

1:01:40

are you going to fall behind?

1:01:42

So that's a big message. I'd like

1:01:44

to send people. Yeah, that's a

1:01:46

great message. I love that. And I

1:01:48

remember that study. And I remember

1:01:50

thinking, not that, oh, this allows me

1:01:52

to skip a meal and then

1:01:55

eat a lot later. It's more that

1:01:57

it makes it okay if I

1:01:59

overeat some protein in a given meal.

1:02:01

It's like, oh, I'm going to

1:02:03

limit myself to 20. or 30 grams of protein because

1:02:05

my body is just gonna quote unquote waste it after that level. But

1:02:07

now we learn that, oh, actually, you know, you sort of kind of

1:02:09

keep it on board and use it when, you know, you

1:02:11

actually need it later on. And I like

1:02:14

that like 12-hour window where it's still available

1:02:16

for your body. So that's really good for

1:02:18

runners to know. Claire, thank you so much

1:02:20

for your guidance today. I know our listeners

1:02:23

are gonna wanna connect with you. Where can

1:02:25

they find you? Yeah, head on over

1:02:27

to Eat for endurance.com. Eat for

1:02:29

endurance is the name of my

1:02:32

private practice. And I work virtually

1:02:34

with all kinds of different clients.

1:02:36

You can find my Instagram, Eat

1:02:38

for endurance. I also have the

1:02:41

Eat for endurance podcast, which you've

1:02:43

been on a long time ago.

1:02:45

And yeah, that's where you can

1:02:47

find me. Great consistent branding, Claire.

1:02:49

Well, thank you so much. We'll have

1:02:51

links in the show notes. So folks

1:02:53

can check that out. Thank you again.

1:02:55

Thank you. If you're getting value from

1:02:57

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