0:00

Welcome back to the show everybody. Mark

0:02

Manson here and this is the last

0:04

podcast of the subtle art of not

0:06

giving a fuck podcast. Yes, the rumors

0:09

are true, the hints have been true,

0:11

all of the little breadcrumbs that I've

0:13

been dropping over the past few episodes

0:15

are in fact true. We are shutting

0:18

down this podcast, but we're shutting it

0:20

down because we're going to launch something

0:22

very new and exciting in its place

0:24

and I just want to take a

0:26

little bit of time to explain both

0:28

the reasoning why we're shutting this down

0:31

and then also what's coming next. So

0:33

bear with me for a little bit.

0:35

I'm going to take you behind the

0:37

scenes, kind of my personal thinking or

0:39

my personal experience with the podcast the

0:41

past year, what my reasoning has been,

0:43

and why we are making the changes

0:45

that we're going to make, and also

0:47

why I'm extremely excited. And I think

0:50

you guys are going to be absolutely thrilled

0:52

with what we produce instead of

0:54

the subtle not giving a fuck

0:56

podcast. So let's get right into

0:58

it. The first thing I want to say

1:00

is that it feels kind of

1:02

insane to shut down something

1:05

this successful. I was actually

1:07

looking at the numbers in

1:09

preparation for recording this. So

1:12

we had 75 episodes, over

1:14

30 million downloads, over 700,000

1:16

followers across platforms. That technically

1:18

puts us in the top

1:21

0.01% of podcasts, like the

1:23

top 400-ish podcast in the

1:25

world. is a massively successful

1:27

podcast by any objective

1:30

measurement, which is still a

1:32

little bit wild for me to think

1:34

about. And I also, I think

1:36

it's worth saying too that shutting

1:38

this down is not a good

1:40

business decision, at least in the

1:42

short term. There were multiple seven

1:44

figure offers on the table from

1:46

major podcast networks, major ad networks

1:48

that we turned down. and a

1:51

big reason for turning those down

1:53

is going to be clear in

1:55

a little bit, but I just

1:57

want to make it clearly like

1:59

this change. is really not for

2:01

the money. It's not like we're

2:03

not selling out in any way,

2:05

shape or form. In fact, it's

2:07

from a business point of view,

2:09

I might just be shooting myself

2:11

in the foot here. But I

2:13

think it's gonna be worth it.

2:15

I think everything that we're gonna

2:17

be producing and putting out is

2:19

absolutely gonna be worth it. And

2:21

five years from now, I'm gonna

2:23

look back and be like, this

2:25

is one of the best decisions.

2:27

So when I look at why.

2:29

I wanted to end the show,

2:31

there are two primary reasons. And

2:33

the first one is honestly just

2:35

purely selfish. And that is, I

2:37

wasn't really having a ton of

2:39

fun doing the show. And maybe

2:41

I was a parent to some

2:43

of you, maybe it wasn't, but

2:45

it became... impossible for me to

2:47

ignore past a certain point. I

2:49

mean, initially, say the first six

2:51

or eight months, like there was

2:53

kind of this honeymoon period, everything's

2:55

new, everything's exciting, but like really

2:57

once the show got going last

2:59

summer, it was painfully aware to

3:01

me that like, this is just

3:03

not really my thing. And we

3:05

tried to experiment with formats, you

3:07

know, we tried to introduce segments

3:10

to the show, Drew and I

3:12

tried to get a little bit.

3:14

playful and creative with some of

3:16

the topics that we'd address. We

3:18

started taking listener questions a lot

3:20

more. We tried to get a

3:22

little bit experimental with like guests

3:24

that we would bring on, but

3:26

it just never sat right. The

3:28

simple reason why is that I've

3:30

been in this industry for almost

3:32

20 years now, and my thing,

3:34

probably the reason that most of

3:36

you even give a shit that

3:38

I'm talking right now, is I

3:40

try to be independent-minded. I try

3:42

to say things that maybe need

3:44

to be said and nobody else

3:46

is really saying. I'm contrarian when

3:48

maybe it's not so popular to

3:50

be contrarian. I call bullshit when

3:52

I see it. And in the

3:54

classic podcast format of bringing on

3:56

kind of star intellectual guess and

3:58

thought leaders. I felt completely hamstrung

4:00

to be able to do that.

4:02

It is a format that is

4:04

antithetical in almost every shape and

4:06

form to ultimately what I think

4:08

I'm best at and what I

4:10

enjoy doing most in my line

4:12

of work. And that sucks. It

4:14

really sucks to have a notable

4:16

guest come on the show and

4:18

start saying something that I actually

4:20

kind of don't agree with or...

4:22

I'm like familiar with the research

4:24

they're talking about, but I don't

4:26

think the research is very good.

4:28

And it puts me in a

4:30

really tough spot of like, okay,

4:32

do I start challenging this guest

4:34

and potentially creating like a big

4:37

argument or a debate on the

4:39

show, potentially alienating the guests, themselves,

4:41

making sure that they're never going

4:43

to come back to the show?

4:45

Do I put myself in a

4:47

position where I'm like suddenly, like

4:49

I didn't prep for a debate

4:51

coming into this episode, but now

4:53

like suddenly I'm having to put

4:55

myself in a headspace of being

4:57

willing to argue and debate a

4:59

really smart person? It was just

5:01

not fun for me. It felt

5:03

like a no-win situation. I can

5:05

either start to fight and make

5:07

everybody miserable, make me miserable, make

5:09

the guest miserable, and make the

5:11

fans of the guest miserable. Or

5:13

I can sit there and smile

5:15

and not along and pretend like

5:17

everything's hunky-dory and also be miserable,

5:19

right? And I experimented with both

5:21

directions and nothing ever felt right.

5:23

And nothing ever felt right with

5:25

the audience either. And I should

5:27

add too that like the whole

5:29

process of sourcing, reaching out, booking,

5:31

guess, aftergast, aftergast, aftergast, it's kind

5:33

of this very unpleasant treadmill. First

5:35

of all, everybody in this space

5:37

is having the same guests on

5:39

over and over again. So you're

5:41

fighting with other podcasts to get

5:43

the same people on. And then

5:45

when you do get them on,

5:47

they kind of just say the

5:49

same thing they said on the

5:51

other podcast that they went on.

5:53

And if you try to get

5:55

them off the thing that they

5:57

said on the other podcast that

5:59

they went on, then they don't

6:02

really want to talk about some

6:04

other thing that you want to

6:06

talk about. And it like. I

6:08

understand that like really good podcasters

6:10

or that like that's the skill

6:12

set that they're experts at like

6:14

getting a new guest and getting

6:16

them to open up in a

6:18

new way and talk about something

6:20

that they've never talked about or

6:22

like researching really intensely and finding

6:24

that subject matter that like they've

6:26

never really been super public about.

6:28

I just found that like I

6:30

don't really care to get good

6:32

at that. That's not my thing.

6:34

And I don't think it's the

6:36

thing that I am best at.

6:38

I don't think it's the thing

6:40

I'm particularly talented at. It's definitely

6:42

not the thing I enjoy. And

6:44

I don't think it's the thing

6:46

that you guys are here for.

6:48

So what the fuck am I

6:50

doing? Trying to do that, like

6:52

trying to like get these super

6:54

spicy breaking guest interviews going. So

6:56

the whole guest thing was just

6:58

kind of, it's a little bit

7:00

of a non-starter for me. And

7:02

don't get me wrong, like some

7:04

of the guests who came on

7:06

the show, I had a fucking

7:08

blast with and had great conversations

7:10

with and had great conversations with

7:12

and had great conversations with, with,

7:14

with, with, with, you know there

7:16

are a lot of guests that

7:18

came on that I was just

7:20

kind of like going through the

7:22

motions and it's one of those

7:24

situations where I have to take

7:26

my own advice and you know

7:29

I'm constantly telling my audience that

7:31

the more you care about something

7:33

the better you'll be at it

7:35

and the more impactful it will

7:37

be to other people and here

7:39

I am just going through the

7:41

motions working on something that I

7:43

don't deeply care about I don't

7:45

think I'm super great at and

7:47

not only am I paying the

7:49

price as well. So starting a

7:51

few months ago it became abundantly

7:53

clear that some sort of pivot

7:55

needed to be made and Drew

7:57

and I started talking very seriously

7:59

about what if we just reboot

8:01

the whole show entirely and start

8:03

from first principles. Before I get

8:05

into that though I do I

8:07

want to go on a little

8:09

bit of a rant here. Because

8:11

having been in the self-help personal

8:13

development podcast world now for a

8:15

couple of years, I'm like a

8:17

little alarmed by what kind of

8:19

flies in this space, not to

8:21

say that like, you know, the

8:23

shows are bad or the advice

8:25

that's being given is bad. It's

8:27

just, I don't think the incentives

8:29

are very healthy at the moment.

8:31

So... In the creator or influencer

8:33

world, there's a concept that's relatively

8:35

well known in my industry, known

8:37

as audience capture. And chances are

8:39

you guys have seen this among

8:41

people that you followed over the

8:43

years. Like, often somebody will build

8:45

an audience among a certain demographic

8:47

or a certain group of people

8:49

who have like some crazy belief,

8:51

right? The creator or the podcaster

8:53

or the YouTubeer like they realize

8:56

that if they if they just

8:58

keep hitting that crazy topic over

9:00

and over again tens of

9:02

thousands hundreds of thousands of people

9:04

keep showing up in force and

9:06

engaging with them over and over

9:08

again. And so what you see

9:10

is that the influencer actually starts

9:12

to take on those crazy beliefs

9:14

and that personality of this like

9:16

segment of their audience that they've

9:18

suddenly captured. And so it's like

9:20

it's almost like being brainwashed by

9:22

your audience. Like you're rewarded for

9:24

feeding into their kind of crazy

9:26

beliefs or narratives. And so the

9:28

the the podcaster or the Youtuber

9:30

kind of convinces themselves that they

9:32

believe those things. Don't feel any

9:34

cognitive dissonance when they when they

9:36

keep putting out the content that

9:38

that audience wants and Audience capture

9:40

is a very real thing I've

9:42

seen it happen in my industry

9:44

many many times It's something I'm

9:46

very careful about and aware of

9:48

with myself that I like really

9:50

try to check myself and make

9:52

sure it's not happening to me

9:54

But I think there's something specific

9:56

to the podcasting world that is

9:58

similar to audience capture, but it's

10:00

a little bit different and I

10:02

would call that guest capture Which

10:04

is, you end up with these

10:06

incentives like, okay, fuck it. I'll

10:08

just, I'll use a real person

10:10

as an example. because there's no

10:12

way in fucking hell I would

10:14

ever have this person on the

10:16

show. Take Joe to Spencer, for

10:18

example, right? Joe to Spencer, he's

10:20

like kind of the new big

10:22

self-help guru, he's doing these massive

10:24

seminars and like arenas and stuff.

10:26

And when you look at his

10:28

content, it's really, it's kind of

10:30

just the secret 2.0. Like it's,

10:32

you know, meditate, breathwork, manifestation, believe

10:35

in yourself, you can be and

10:37

do anything. It's a bunch of

10:39

bullshit. Like we've been here before

10:41

before, right. If you have him

10:43

on your show, it's like a

10:45

guaranteed four to five million person

10:47

audience. Like his audience is massive

10:49

and it is absolutely rabid. They

10:51

consume every single thing he touches.

10:53

And so I have quietly watched

10:55

as multiple people in my space

10:57

continually bring them on their shows

10:59

and let him spout his quantum

11:01

theory bullshit over and over again.

11:03

And I'm not like singling out

11:05

Joe dispensers like... He's not uniquely

11:07

bad in any way. He's just

11:09

an example, right? Because it's like

11:11

I understand what those podcasters are

11:13

going through. Like I know for

11:15

a fact that some of those

11:17

podcasters don't believe any of the

11:19

stuff that he says, but they

11:21

still bring him on the show

11:23

and they placate him and they

11:25

humor him and they let him

11:27

like go on his spiel about

11:29

manifesting and quantum spirits and whatever.

11:31

And then they let the, you

11:33

know, the four million views or

11:35

the five million downloads come in.

11:37

And then they, you know, they

11:39

move on to the next guest.

11:41

And to me, that just feels

11:43

like a certain level of prostituting

11:45

oneself. And it's like, I find

11:47

it very distasteful, but I understand

11:49

the impulse to do that. Like,

11:51

as a podcaster myself, I want

11:53

to bring on guests that are

11:55

going to bring in massive audiences.

11:57

And so to bring on somebody

11:59

with a huge audience, I want

12:01

to at least placate or goal.

12:03

with whatever they say and act

12:05

as though I agree with it

12:07

or at least don't disagree with

12:09

it because then that will convert

12:11

their audience into my audience. I

12:13

felt myself being pulled in this

12:15

direction while having notable people on

12:17

the show and it just it

12:19

made me feel very gross and

12:21

it felt it went against everything

12:23

that I think I stand for

12:25

in this in this industry and

12:27

in this market and I don't

12:29

want to get sucked down that

12:31

and so The first thing I

12:33

will say about the new show

12:36

that we're going to launch is

12:38

that there will be no guests

12:40

on it. That doesn't mean that

12:42

we're not going to talk to

12:44

experts, we're actually going to talk

12:46

to a lot of experts, but

12:48

we're going to talk to them

12:50

behind the scenes. We're going to

12:52

talk to them behind the scenes.

12:54

We're going to talk to experts

12:56

who don't have audiences. We're going

12:58

to talk to academics. We're going

13:00

to talk to experts. people's ideas

13:02

and perspectives, and be able to

13:04

criticize them openly and show the

13:06

pros and cons of certain viewpoints

13:08

and not feel socially pressured or

13:10

audience pressured into going along with

13:12

certain things that maybe I don't

13:14

believe in or that frankly the

13:16

research doesn't back up. Okay, second

13:18

gripe, and again this is something

13:20

that I think is a wider

13:22

problem in the personal development podcast

13:24

space, but I've also experienced that

13:26

on our show as well, is

13:28

that you can have one guest

13:30

on one week and they'll tell

13:32

you X, Y, Z, and then

13:34

you have another guest on two

13:36

weeks later and they say the

13:38

exact opposite of X, Y, Z.

13:40

And again, I feel put in

13:42

a bind whenever that happens. I

13:44

struggle, like, how should I contextualize

13:46

this? Well, shit, like, is this

13:48

guy line or was the guy

13:50

two weeks ago line? Like, should

13:52

I bring this up? I think

13:54

it's it's beautiful to have podcast.

13:56

with a wide variety of perspectives

13:58

and views, but I do think

14:00

there needs to be some cohesion

14:02

or clarity around like, you know,

14:04

what's legitimate, what's not. Like, certain

14:06

viewpoints have more evidence behind them

14:08

than others. But when you present

14:10

everything as just another guest saying

14:12

another thing, like that gets lost

14:14

in the mix. And again, I.

14:16

I think the context is so

14:18

important and the context is not

14:20

being featured. It's like being left

14:22

behind the scenes. So when Drew

14:24

and I sat down and we

14:26

were like, really just, what do

14:28

we want to build from first

14:30

principles? And not only what do

14:32

we want to build, but also

14:34

like, what do we feel like

14:36

this space needs? What is it

14:39

lacking? What is the show that

14:41

needs to exist, but nobody's making

14:43

at the moment? And the conclusion

14:45

that we came to is that

14:47

the space needs. a very serious

14:49

deep dive into individual topics. And

14:51

when I say serious deep dive,

14:53

I mean like extremely thorough vetting

14:55

multiple perspectives, vetting research from multiple

14:57

places, walking through the history and

14:59

context and. train of thought that

15:01

occurred from one generation to the

15:03

next of thinkers and researchers, like

15:05

really giving a fully fleshed out

15:07

view of a single subject, instead

15:09

of just, you know, bringing on,

15:11

you know, Joe Blow academic or,

15:13

you know, Jane Smith influencer and

15:15

asking them the same questions. So

15:17

we really want to do like

15:19

a full, thorough, comprehensive guide. to

15:21

a single subject matter and just

15:23

simply include all of the varying

15:25

perspectives of experts within that single

15:27

episode. And so that's what we're

15:29

gonna do. They're gonna be longer

15:31

episodes and they're gonna be posted

15:33

less frequently. And the idea is

15:35

that every time you listen to

15:37

an episode, whatever the topic is.

15:39

whether it's procrastination or managing your

15:41

emotions or discovering your values, the

15:43

idea, Drew and I's North Star

15:45

as we're putting this together with

15:47

our team, is that this should

15:49

be the last podcast episode that

15:51

you ever have to listen to

15:53

on this subject, that if you

15:55

get through this episode of this

15:57

podcast on this subject, every other

15:59

podcast that comes up on that

16:01

subject is gonna feel repetitive and

16:03

like a waste of time. Because

16:05

you've already done it. You've already

16:07

been through the entire mix. You've

16:09

gotten all the information. You have

16:11

all the takeaways and you know

16:13

exactly how to implement it into

16:15

your life. That is our goal.

16:17

And that promise of being the

16:19

last podcast you ever need, we're

16:21

keeping that promise with ourselves. Our

16:23

goal with every episode that we

16:25

make is that we can never

16:27

come back to this topic. or

16:29

at least until there's like some

16:31

new breakthrough discovery or research, we're

16:33

never coming back to this topic.

16:35

This needs to be completely soup

16:37

the nuts, A to Z, cover

16:40

every single base. So like, let's

16:42

get it right. The other thing

16:44

about this show is that it's

16:46

gonna be ad-free. This is another

16:48

incentive issue, I think, in this

16:50

space, is that as somebody who

16:52

is doling out life advice, there's

16:54

a lot of incentives that come

16:56

from sponsorships and a lot of

16:58

companies to want to push certain

17:00

products or relationships and I mean

17:02

some of them I feel confident

17:04

with I mean a lot of

17:06

the sponsors on this show are

17:08

products that I've used or I

17:10

actively do use but there's a

17:12

lot of situations where a company

17:14

shows up with a lot of

17:16

money and they want you to

17:18

say and do some things and

17:20

again I just don't want to

17:22

deal with that. On top of

17:24

that every single episode is going

17:26

to come with a full PDF

17:28

summary and guide. all of the

17:30

sources citations and notes it's going

17:32

to be a full summary of

17:34

the episode it's going to include

17:36

everything that Drew and I talk

17:38

about it's going to have all

17:40

of the book recommendations and the

17:42

experts that we talk to. Some

17:44

of these PDFs, we're working on

17:46

the third episode now. Some of

17:48

these PDFs are like pushing 80,

17:50

90 pages. They are absolutely massive.

17:52

I mean, honestly, it's crazy. I

17:54

honestly believe some of these episodes

17:56

are more valuable than entire books

17:58

written on these subjects, and we're

18:00

just gonna give it out for

18:02

free. It's just gonna be available

18:04

to all you guys each month

18:06

as it comes out. So the

18:08

new show, it's gonna be called

18:10

Sol. Because the idea is that

18:12

if you listen to the episode

18:14

and you pay attention and you

18:16

actually fucking do the thing in

18:18

the episode, you do the takeaways,

18:20

you implement it into your life,

18:22

that area of your life should

18:24

be solved. It should no longer

18:26

be an open question. You should

18:28

no longer feel a need to

18:30

go read another book or go

18:32

hire another coach. If there's one

18:34

thing that I've learned over the

18:36

past year with a bunch of

18:38

the live events that I've done,

18:40

like meeting a lot of you

18:43

guys in person, doing a lot

18:45

of speaking, it seems like The

18:47

number one issue everyone has at

18:49

the moment is that there's information

18:51

overload, but there's no implementation. There's

18:53

no clear roadmap of like, okay,

18:55

well, cool, I just like listen

18:57

this three hour conversation with this

18:59

doctor, but like, I don't know

19:01

what to actually go do. And

19:03

so the goal of this new

19:05

podcast is not only to give

19:07

you. all of the necessary information,

19:09

but it's to give you also

19:11

the implementation along the way, to

19:13

make it clear of like, okay,

19:15

these are actually like just the

19:17

four questions you should be focusing

19:19

on, and these are the three

19:21

things that you should do first,

19:23

and if you do this, this,

19:25

and this, then you're probably good.

19:27

The Salt Podcast will be launching

19:29

on May 1st. If you're subscribed

19:31

to this podcast feed on Apple

19:33

or Spotify or any other audio

19:35

platform, you will automatically be subscribed

19:37

to the Solve Feed. the subtle

19:39

art feed over to Solved. If

19:41

you're subscribed on YouTube and watching

19:43

this on YouTube, we are going

19:45

to move the Solved podcast back

19:47

to the main Mark Manson channel.

19:49

So if you're not subscribed to

19:51

the Mark Manson channel, you should

19:53

go there, get subscribed, because that's

19:55

where the first Solved episode is

19:57

going to be dropped on May

19:59

1st. We're also getting away from

20:01

like, you know, every other Tuesday or

20:03

Monday morning, release schedules. We're just

20:06

dropping episodes on the first of

20:08

every single month. So the first

20:10

episode will be May 1st, the

20:12

second episode will be June 1st,

20:14

the third episode will be July

20:16

1st. The idea is that these

20:18

are long-term, slow-burn commitments that you

20:20

guys make. You can work through

20:22

an episode at your leisure. The

20:24

episodes are pretty long. I'm gonna

20:26

warn you, like we're looking... three,

20:29

four, five hours long, but you

20:31

can take your time with it.

20:33

You can listen to it slowly

20:35

over multiple days or multiple weeks.

20:37

You can work your way through

20:40

the PDF guide. Everything's gonna come

20:42

with accompanying exercises and implementations. So

20:44

you can like really just let it

20:46

savor in your brain a little bit.

20:48

Just like let it based like

20:50

a turkey on Thanksgiving. And finally,

20:52

I do have to say like

20:55

this. experiment this phase of my

20:57

career this podcast has it really

20:59

it's been wonderful it's something that

21:01

that I I probably should have

21:04

done like five years ago and

21:06

and honestly if I did start

21:08

this podcast five or six years

21:10

ago maybe Maybe things would be

21:12

different. Maybe I would stick with this

21:14

format. Maybe we would be doing maybe

21:17

we would be doing the same fucking

21:19

guest treadmill that everybody else is doing.

21:21

I don't know. All I know is

21:23

that like this has been a really

21:25

rewarding project over the last year and

21:27

a half. It's it's built a wonderful

21:30

audience that is so much more engaged

21:32

than a lot of other places that

21:34

I post or a lot of other

21:36

content that I put online. It has

21:38

introduced me to a lot of amazing

21:41

people, like a lot of the guests that

21:43

I have had on are just like awesome

21:45

people that I'm so grateful that I am

21:47

able to know and be in touch with.

21:49

So it has given me a lot and

21:51

I am very thankful for it. I

21:54

just also think it's not the right

21:56

thing for me. I don't like this, it's

21:58

not a right fit for me. it's what

22:00

you guys want from me either. And

22:02

so, solved is my attempt to A,

22:04

get right with what I want to

22:07

make. Like this is what I would

22:09

want to listen to in this market

22:11

that nobody's making. So, fuck it. Like,

22:13

let me go make it. And I

22:15

also think it's what you guys want

22:17

to hear too. I think it's what

22:19

you guys are going to be more

22:21

interested in. You know, I don't think

22:24

you guys need another like, you know,

22:26

fucking morning routine and... to listen to

22:28

the same dude who's been on 18

22:30

other podcasts to promote his book. Like

22:32

that's just, it's not interesting to me

22:34

and I imagine it's not interesting to

22:36

a lot of you. So thank you

22:39

for understanding, thank you for tuning in

22:41

over the last 18 months. It's been

22:43

great and seriously I can't tell you

22:45

how excited I am for this next

22:47

chapter. Make sure you're subscribed on all

22:49

the platforms. If you want to get

22:51

an early peek at some of the

22:53

PDF content, make sure you're on my

22:56

newsletter. Go to Mark manson.net/newsletter. We're going

22:58

to be announcing and pushing everything all

23:00

over the place. So it's going to

23:02

be very exciting and the first episode

23:04

is going to be on values, which

23:06

I think is very appropriate considering I'm

23:08

the not give a fuck guy. So

23:11

we'll see you there. Drew and I

23:13

will be waiting and here's to a

23:15

new chapter. The subtle

23:17

art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast

23:19

is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited

23:22

by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choise, our videographer,

23:24

and sound engineer. Thank you for listening,

23:26

and we will see you next week.