0:00

Hi, it's Gary Jubilant here. I'm

0:02

excited to announce I'll be hosting a live

0:04

podcast recording at the Factory Theatre

0:06

in Sydney on the 27th of November.

0:09

Spend the evening with myself and two special

0:11

guests as we take a deep dive into the

0:13

world of crime and punishment. You'll even

0:16

be able to take part in a live Q&A. I'll

0:18

be there before and after the show to have a chat. Tickets

0:21

are available through the link in the show notes

0:23

or visit the Eyecatch Killers Instagram

0:25

or Facebook group. I hope to see you there.

0:28

It's going to be raw and I reckon a lot of fun.

0:32

The public has had a long-held fascination

0:34

with detectives. Detectives see a

0:36

side of life the average person is never exposed

0:38

to.

0:39

I spent 34 years as a cop.

0:42

For 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's

0:45

what I did for a living. I was a homicide

0:47

detective. I'm no longer just

0:49

interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking

0:51

the public into the world in which I operated.

0:54

The guests I talk to each week have amazing

0:56

stories from all sides of the law. The interviews

0:58

are raw and honest just like the people I talk

1:01

to. Some of the content and language

1:03

might be confronting. That's because no one

1:05

who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

1:08

Join me now as I

1:09

take you into this world.

1:15

Welcome to another episode of Eyecatch Killers.

1:18

My journey from policing into the media

1:20

has been a sharp learning curve. But now that

1:22

I've seen both worlds I can confidently

1:24

say there are undeniable similarities in

1:26

both professions. The impact and

1:29

success of a criminal or journalistic investigation

1:32

is often related to the efforts put into the case

1:34

by a particular detective or journalist. Tough

1:37

cases or good stories are often broken

1:39

by some obsessed cop or dogged journalist.

1:42

Today on Eyecatch Killers I'll be talking to one

1:44

of those dogged journalists. I don't think there

1:46

are many people in the country who have not heard

1:48

of the podcast The Teacher's Pet. It has

1:50

reached 80 million listeners worldwide.

1:53

It's a story about the disappearance and murder

1:55

of Lynette Dawson whose only mistake

1:57

was falling in love with the wrong man. It's about

1:59

a

1:59

families fight for justice, a passionate

2:02

detective and the power of the media. It

2:04

also exposes failings in the justice

2:06

system and society's acceptance

2:09

of unacceptable behaviours. It puts

2:11

the spotlight on the grub of a human being. His

2:13

name is Chris Dawson, teacher, rugby

2:16

league star, convicted murderer and

2:18

sex offender. I'm excited

2:20

to say we've got former guest Headley

2:22

Thomas back on iCatch Killers. Headley

2:24

is the creator of the Teaches Pet podcast,

2:27

and he's going to take us behind the scenes of an extraordinary

2:29

murder investigation, which has captured

2:32

the attention of the whole world. Headley Thomas,

2:34

welcome back to iCatch Killers. Thank you so

2:36

much for having me again, Gary. It's great to be

2:38

here. Well, I know Headley throughout

2:40

your career, you've had a lot of accolades and

2:42

a lot of awards, but appearing

2:44

for the second time on iCatch Killers must sit

2:47

up there with some of the higher

2:49

achievements in your career. We must have had some downloads.

2:52

You asked me back, mate. I'm privileged.

2:55

Well, privileged. Let's talk about

2:57

it. And I want to talk about the

2:59

Teaches Pet and, yeah, to

3:02

fully understand the Teaches Pet, Headley

3:04

Thomas is synonymous,

3:06

the name with the Teaches Pet. And

3:09

we're talking about a case, and I just want to

3:11

put it up front, that Lynette Dawson,

3:13

her family, liked to have

3:16

her referred to by her maiden name. Is

3:18

that correct? That's right. Lynette Sims. And

3:21

that happened after Dawson

3:23

was convicted in August 2022 last year

3:25

over her mother and

3:27

Greg Sims, her brother, said from here

3:30

on, we want her to take her

3:32

name back. She doesn't want to be a Dawson

3:34

anymore. And we don't want her to be a Dawson

3:36

anymore. And understandable in the circumstances.

3:40

Now, I thought I knew a lot about

3:43

the case. I was in the police

3:45

at the time, so I heard bits and

3:47

pieces about the particular case and

3:49

listened to your podcast, which 60 million

3:52

downloads. I think it's up around 80 now. I

3:54

don't want to blow at Trump. Let's

3:58

hope we can get those 80 or. 80 million

4:00

listening to iCatch Killers. But

4:03

it's incredible what's happened with

4:05

that. And there's so much I want to unpack.

4:08

And I've just finished a book, The

4:10

Teacher's Pet, the book that's come out. And

4:13

I've got to admit, when I picked up the book, I

4:15

thought, I know all about this case, what's

4:18

going to be in it for me, reading

4:20

the book. I've got to say, I've learnt so much

4:22

more about the book and a couple of things

4:24

that come out from the book. Yeah. I'm

4:26

really glad about that. I didn't want to reproduce

4:29

the podcast. That would have been a redundant

4:32

exercise. I wanted the book to

4:34

take readers inside

4:36

how a journalistic investigation

4:39

unfolds. I wanted them to see

4:41

how the criminal justice system sometimes

4:43

works and doesn't work. And

4:46

I also wanted them to understand

4:48

the toll that murder takes

4:51

on families, on the people left behind.

4:55

And to a lesser extent, of course, to

4:57

a storyteller. And I've been

5:00

a journalist for a long time. I've got a lot of scars

5:02

issue like you, Gary. But

5:06

there are sacrifices that you

5:08

necessarily make. And I

5:10

think pain that you absorb when

5:12

you take on a case such as this

5:15

and end up butting heads with

5:17

so many people in the process. Yeah.

5:20

But well, the thing that comes out in the

5:22

book that how

5:24

often missing persons can

5:27

just fall through the cracks and

5:30

it's not followed up. And

5:32

I've shuddered since I heard

5:34

about Lyn's disappearance at the

5:39

reality that there must be

5:41

hundreds and hundreds of Australian

5:44

women, mostly women, who have

5:46

disappeared and been written off as

5:48

just runaways who are

5:51

actually murder victims. And

5:53

the files have been closed and people have moved

5:55

on. Very

5:58

violent husbands. like

6:00

Chris Dawson have got away with many

6:02

murders. Wouldn't happen in this

6:05

way now or ever again, touch

6:07

wood. But for a long period, that's

6:09

how they were treated. I definitely

6:12

agree with you there, Headley, and having

6:14

been in the homicide squad

6:16

for as long as I was as a detective.

6:20

Like missing persons, quite often,

6:22

unless the family are pushing an aspect

6:24

of it or unless the media

6:26

have got interested in it, invariably

6:29

it just sits there. Yeah. And

6:31

sometimes even when the family is pushing

6:33

it, it's not sufficient. I

6:36

can understand why there would

6:38

be, I guess, prioritising

6:41

by overworked homicide

6:43

squads. You know, there's no body, there

6:46

are no witnesses, there's no forensic

6:48

evidence with a cold case, an old case.

6:50

What have you got to work with? And

6:53

there would be, inevitably,

6:55

I think, just understanding human nature,

6:58

a temptation if

7:00

you're a detective working out what

7:02

you're going to go with next or if you're a commander

7:04

trying to allocate cases, you want to get

7:07

results, you want to get those cases that are

7:09

more likely to be solved. So these are

7:11

the ones that have all of those

7:14

problems are going to possibly

7:17

go to the bottom of the pile. Yeah. The

7:19

way that you're talking there, to me, it shows

7:21

you've got a very clear insight into the way

7:24

that police operate. And

7:26

sometimes it's a system failing, sometimes

7:28

it's just the wrong individual that

7:30

the crime's been reported to, but for whatever

7:33

reason. The other thing that comes across in

7:35

the book, and again with the podcast that

7:37

came across in the podcast and all the

7:39

media articles that have gone with it, is

7:42

what a nice person Ling was. Yes. She

7:45

was a beautiful soul. She was

7:47

loved by her own family

7:50

and her friends. I don't think it's

7:52

a coincidence that she became a nurse.

7:55

She joined the caring profession. She wanted

7:57

to look after people, nurture

7:59

people. people. She wanted to look after children.

8:03

Nobody had a bad word to say about Lynn unless

8:06

they had a surname, Dawson.

8:08

I think that when she suddenly

8:11

disappeared from people's lives, that's

8:14

what made it so hard for the family

8:16

and friends to understand that this

8:19

person who had been so connected, who

8:21

would organize the birthday parties

8:23

for members of the Sims family

8:26

and also members of the Dawson family, who

8:28

would always be the first to acknowledge and

8:31

remember anniversaries and so on, suddenly

8:34

disappeared and didn't ever

8:37

contact anyone again except, of course,

8:39

according to her killer, him.

8:42

Well, that irony

8:44

came out in the telling of the story

8:47

that, so we've got this person

8:49

that you've just described, Lynn,

8:52

but she's breaking away from someone because

8:54

her life is terrible with this particular person

8:57

as in Chris, but he's the only person

8:59

she reaches out to, not her family, her

9:01

friends and her work or anyone.

9:03

It doesn't add up, does it? It doesn't

9:06

make sense. And the other absolute absurdity

9:09

with his story, with his account right from

9:11

day one, is this. They

9:14

leave marriage counselling on

9:16

a Friday. He walks into

9:19

her workplace with her. They're holding

9:21

hands. Her girlfriends at

9:23

the childcare centre where she was working, looking after

9:26

the kids, thought, holy snap,

9:28

that is working. How

9:31

did that happen? Have they been hypnotized

9:33

or something? Because everything was going badly.

9:36

Dawson was clearly obsessed with a babysitter.

9:39

He had been grooming this school student for

9:41

a year. Suddenly, he's lovey-dovey

9:44

with his wife and his wife tells

9:46

her mother everything can be okay. That

9:49

counselling went really well. Now,

9:52

if everything went well, why

9:55

did she then go away as

9:57

he claimed the next day? to

10:00

go away. Everything was going well. She's not

10:02

going to take off. Looking at

10:04

the case and looking at it, we have the benefit

10:06

of hindsight. You've had the benefit of hindsight and

10:08

I'm looking at it from your investigation

10:10

and what we know now. There were so many

10:12

red flags there and this

10:15

is the scary part that these indicators

10:17

get missed or the system lets

10:19

it down. I want to break it down

10:22

in sort of a chronological order of

10:25

her disappearance and different things. But

10:27

the other thing that comes across from this whole investigation,

10:30

I think we as a society and

10:32

hopefully it's changed, have got to look at ourselves

10:35

in what was going on at the high

10:37

school with the teachers, male teachers

10:40

and young female students. It

10:42

seemed to be like it was the unkept secret.

10:45

Everyone knew about it but

10:47

no one did anything about it. Yes. I've talked

10:49

to a number of these former teachers who are retired

10:51

now who did know about it and

10:54

they are, I think, very

10:56

remorseful that they didn't speak

10:59

up themselves at the time. Particularly

11:01

the female teachers who knew that

11:04

their contemporary, their male colleagues

11:07

were grooming and having sex with

11:09

the students. Teaching them on

11:11

the Thursday and having sex with them on the Friday

11:13

afternoon after school and then teaching

11:16

them again on the Monday as if nothing had happened.

11:18

This was going on in not

11:22

just Chroma High School where

11:24

Chris Dawson taught, it was going on at Forest

11:27

High where his twin Paul taught and

11:30

with a number of teachers across different high

11:32

schools of the Northern Beaches. It

11:35

was the culture and I don't

11:38

know that it was the culture in every

11:40

state school. My gut feeling is

11:43

that it was more prevalent on the Northern Beaches.

11:45

I think that's possibly because of

11:47

this phenomenon that people refer to as the

11:50

Inchola Peninsula. That's almost

11:52

like there's another. This

11:56

is how we do things around these

11:58

parts. I know

12:00

what you're talking about but yeah,

12:03

we have to look at ourselves for that. I

12:05

want to ask you because I'm fascinated by

12:08

the fact that the way that

12:10

you've told this and the impact that you've had on

12:13

this investigation. How

12:15

do you get a sense of the story was there? What

12:17

was the thing that attracted you to this

12:19

whole story about Chris Dawson

12:21

and when? Well, it goes

12:24

back to 2001 and I think

12:26

just the really obvious

12:29

signs to me of a deeply

12:32

suspicious probable event

12:35

of foul play. A husband

12:39

who had become infatuated with

12:41

a babysitter who

12:43

moves into the house, then his

12:45

wife who loved her children

12:48

and loved her husband vanishes

12:51

and then he marries the babysitter and no one hears from

12:53

the wife again. Those

12:56

elements just scream to

12:58

me with

13:01

such clarity and I couldn't

13:03

understand in 2001 why

13:06

the case then at 19 years of age hadn't

13:08

been cracked. I

13:15

revisited the case in

13:17

late 2017 thinking it

13:19

still hasn't been cracked. How is

13:21

this possible and maybe

13:24

let's use a podcast

13:26

and have a red hot go at trying

13:29

to find new witnesses and bringing

13:32

all of this material out and hopefully

13:36

putting it in front of the DPP

13:38

and whoever else needed to confront it

13:41

to make a decision to prosecute.

13:45

Why at that particular point in time

13:47

and we're talking 2001, you've

13:50

looked at it, so we're looking at 19

13:52

years after the

13:54

event. You've seen that there's

13:56

a story there. You're a working

13:58

journalist. report up. I've

14:01

been working in the media

14:03

for three years. I'm starting to feel my way about

14:07

how did you get allocated the time to put the research

14:09

in for this particular investigation? Because

14:11

I can imagine a younger Headley,

14:14

you're still young now, we'll just say a younger Headley

14:17

walks in, speaks to the editor and

14:19

go, I've got a great yarn but I just

14:21

need six months off to have

14:23

a proper look at it. How did you get that across the board?

14:27

In 2017 when I made that request for

14:29

that amount of time, I think

14:32

I just must have made a

14:34

really compelling pitch to be

14:37

able to have that budget

14:40

and time off, the normal drudgery

14:42

of daily reporting to do the

14:44

story. In 2001

14:47

when I wanted to tackle this and did

14:49

tackle it as a feature article for

14:51

the Courier Mail newspaper, that involved

14:53

me going to Sydney so

14:55

it was one return flight. I went

14:57

down on my wedding anniversary and

15:00

I was thinking then that it would

15:03

be a really powerful weekend

15:05

feature article if I could get cooperation

15:08

from one of Lyn's family

15:10

members to talk to me and also

15:13

if I could see some of the evidence

15:15

that had already come out in the first

15:17

inquest. But Gary, an

15:20

incredible thing happened. I went into the DY

15:22

police station having already spoken

15:24

to a detective senior constable

15:27

Damian Lune. I called him from Brisbane

15:29

and said, I've been reading in the

15:32

daily telly these accounts

15:34

from the inquest that's just been completed.

15:36

He said, yes, it's a remarkable case. I've been

15:39

on it for a few years and it's now

15:41

before the DPP. I

15:43

said, look, I'm fascinated by

15:45

this. I can't

15:48

recall whether I knew then or some

15:51

days later that Dawson was

15:53

also teaching or had taught

15:55

at my old high school. I can't recall exactly

15:58

when I knew that.

16:00

But Damien said to me, mate, I've

16:02

got permission from my boss who

16:05

is Paul Hume to show you the

16:08

brief of evidence that went before the coroner. If you

16:11

come into the police station, you can't take copies,

16:13

you can take notes. And

16:15

Gary, that has never happened before in

16:17

my career. It hasn't

16:19

happened since then, it didn't happen before, where

16:22

a police officer was prepared to show me

16:24

the files that

16:26

had gone before the coroner. But

16:30

look, I think what he did should

16:32

happen a lot more because these are public records.

16:35

When they go before a court, a proceeding, there

16:38

should be access by journalists

16:40

and the public, they're public documents. But

16:43

there was certainly a sensitivity generally

16:45

to that kind of acting being

16:48

done. If it hadn't been for

16:50

that and for the

16:53

stunning material that I was able

16:56

to read then and the

16:58

knowledge that I took from it that stayed

17:00

with me for all of those years

17:03

until 2017, would

17:05

we be talking about this case now with

17:07

a murderer in Long Bay? I'd

17:09

say if it is an actual question,

17:11

I'd say no, we would not be. And

17:14

that's the frightening part about it. So

17:16

a detective takes it upon himself and

17:18

then an informed person, Paul

17:21

Hume, who I know makes

17:23

the decision, yes, we'll let you have a look at it. And

17:25

there's that transparency in that open

17:28

justice type thing that you're quite

17:30

right, they're public records. But I can

17:32

say from my policing point of

17:34

view, there'd be shock horror. No, we don't want our work

17:36

scrutinised and that seems to be the roadblock

17:39

too often. But yeah,

17:42

it certainly makes a difference

17:44

when you've got access to those records. And

17:47

I have a problem, not a problem, I shouldn't

17:49

say it that way, but with Corranial Inquest, they

17:51

should be very public. And I don't like

17:53

it when it's done behind closed doors. I think that's

17:56

the purpose of an inquest, public inquiry

17:58

to find out time, place, are cause

18:00

of death. We need to have that

18:03

openness and I understand with criminal

18:05

courts, we need to keep it a little bit tighter because

18:07

it's an adversarial system but once

18:09

it's before the coroner, that's

18:11

where the public finds out what's happened. That's

18:14

right and it was that event

18:17

in which I end up spending several hours

18:19

in this office at the back of the police station

18:22

just taking dozens of pages of notes

18:27

and Damien coming

18:29

in going and probably making

18:32

sure that I wasn't grabbing any documents

18:34

that I swear I didn't. You didn't bring your

18:36

camera in. No, no, well back then we didn't have the smart

18:38

phones and I just had a

18:41

big notebook and

18:45

that's the other great thing. I kept my

18:47

notebook and I kept other

18:49

material that I collated back then and

18:51

so when it came time for me to do this podcast,

18:54

it was all there. It was in

18:56

great condition and I was able to refer

18:59

back to it and that's what I've done for the book.

19:01

That's the thing that's fascinating about

19:03

this whole story. When I said at the start

19:05

that I read the book and I didn't think there'd be

19:07

a lot that I didn't know but you've

19:10

got your notebooks up in your ceiling above

19:12

your carport and you had to get your son because he

19:14

was a bit more agile to get up there and

19:16

go through all the boxes that you had

19:18

all your records up there to open it

19:20

up again. Yes and I just want to send a little memo

19:23

to any probable or alleged murderers

19:25

that I might end up talking about in future podcasts.

19:28

The location of all of my files has changed.

19:31

If you visit my house looking for my files

19:33

of any stories I might have done in the past, you won't find

19:35

it. Okay, well that's good. We'll

19:38

put that out so there's no misunderstanding

19:43

there. There's another aspect that I really didn't

19:46

know and I spoke to you before we started the

19:49

last few minutes and I asked if it's alright that I could mention this but you

19:51

also had a personal interest in this case because

19:54

your own grandmother had disappeared

19:56

and to this day there's no answer for

19:58

what happened there. No, that's right.

20:00

My father's mother vanished from

20:03

the northern beaches of all places

20:05

in 1956. So that was 26 years before Lynn

20:07

disappeared. She was 35 years old at the time. My

20:09

dad was 16 and

20:18

she had her own personal

20:20

struggles. I think

20:24

that what must have happened is

20:26

that the clothes that were left on

20:29

the beach at DY

20:31

and the footsteps into the sand

20:35

meant that she swam

20:38

and kept swimming and drowned and

20:41

nothing was ever recovered. But

20:44

what it did was obviously profoundly

20:46

affected my father for whom I've got

20:48

the utmost respect. And

20:52

as a boy growing up and as a young

20:54

man and then I became a husband

20:57

and a dad, you

21:02

learn as you go through life

21:04

just the longing

21:06

that you have for and

21:08

the love you have for people

21:10

who are close to you and when someone just disappears

21:13

and there's that

21:15

black hole, that mystery and

21:18

always that little bit of hope that

21:20

the person who's disappeared notwithstanding

21:24

clues to what probably

21:27

happened being a

21:29

small pile of clothes on the beach, you

21:31

have this ongoing hope

21:34

that maybe the person

21:36

will reappear. This is what happened

21:38

in Lynn's family too. Lynn's

21:41

mother, Helena, Lynn's brothers,

21:43

Lynn's sister Pat, they all

21:47

for at least the first eight years

21:51

clung to this hope that

21:53

Lynn would come back. And

21:55

I think my father went through that. And what

21:58

happened to my father's mother

22:02

and my knowledge of that and what

22:05

my mum used to talk to us about and so on,

22:07

it made Lynn's story more

22:10

relatable for me. I felt like I had a

22:12

personal private connection

22:15

that I didn't want to share

22:17

in the podcast, I didn't want to talk about

22:19

in any interviews that I did through 2018

22:22

and that whole period. I

22:26

felt that if I talked about it, it would be

22:28

a distraction from what we

22:30

were trying to do in relation to Lynn's

22:33

murder. I didn't want it to become

22:35

a diversion but now

22:38

that all of that is done, Dawson

22:40

is in prison where he belongs and

22:43

I've written this book which is a

22:45

memoir as much as it is an

22:48

insight into an investigation

22:50

or multiple investigations involving Lynn.

22:53

I felt this was probably the

22:56

right place for me to hopefully,

23:00

thoughtfully and carefully deal

23:03

with this very sensitive subject.

23:05

I think you're wise in doing that because

23:07

I think it would have been, for you detractors,

23:10

it would have been used against you. You haven't got

23:12

perspective on this, you're invested in

23:14

it because your grandmother disappeared. I

23:16

think it would have been used against you. I

23:19

was invested in it because

23:22

my grandmother disappeared and knowing

23:25

the impact and the sadness that

23:28

it left with my father. The

23:31

fact that I started doing

23:34

the investigation into Lynn's murder

23:36

just months after my dad died, I

23:39

think on at least a subconscious

23:41

level, I waited for dad to pass before I took

23:44

this up

23:47

because he probably would have been

23:49

thinking more about his mother

23:52

if he were alive and watching me unpack

23:54

this story. It would have been distressing

23:56

for him. I can imagine. The other

23:59

thing that you raised and I've seen this

24:01

but how it impacted on this investigation.

24:04

You're quite right where people have lost loved

24:06

ones or they disappeared. There always

24:09

is that hope that it's just going

24:11

to be a huge misunderstanding or an

24:13

issue and they're waiting. That knock

24:15

on the door could be, I'm sorry, I know I've

24:17

been gone for 10 years but I'm back now, that

24:19

type of thing. They hang on to that hope.

24:22

That actually that hope that

24:25

the family was hanging on to played a part

24:27

in the investigation because they didn't want to accept

24:29

that Lyn had been murdered

24:32

because it was a hope that she had actually gone

24:34

away that Chris had said, oh no,

24:36

she just wanted to break away. That would

24:38

have given them hope that one day she'll walk

24:40

back into their world. That's right. He

24:43

was able to very callously exploit their

24:46

hope and their naivety and

24:48

he would occasionally throw them a little bone

24:50

in the early stages. I've

24:53

heard from Lyn, oh so and so said

24:55

she saw Lyn and the hope

24:58

would be reinvigorated and Helena,

25:01

Lyn's mum would put word around the rest

25:03

of the family. Oh, Chris said this and Helena

25:05

would make diary notes of

25:08

Lyn's scene here and Lyn's scene

25:10

there. It was all garbage and

25:15

during the colonial proceedings, there

25:17

were even efforts to attempt to

25:20

suggest that Helena's diary

25:22

notes based on things that she

25:25

had been told by Chris was actually her

25:28

evidence which was garbage. I could imagine

25:30

that being exploited. The

25:32

sightings of people and just

25:34

to put this in perspective, when I was heading up the

25:37

William Tyrrell investigation, I think

25:39

we had over 600 sightings of

25:41

William. All of which, the

25:43

ones that we checked, all of which were fake

25:46

sightings with the bearable murders,

25:48

the murders of the three Aboriginal children.

25:51

We had sightings and they can

25:53

impact so much on that investigation. I learnt

25:55

very early and it was from Rod Lynch

25:57

who was working with Clive Small

25:59

and the other others on the backpacker, Ivan

26:02

Malatman. He was my

26:04

supervisor when I first was involved in

26:06

the Barival investigation. He

26:08

said, just be cautious of these sightings.

26:11

Make sure the sightings, if there's any sightings,

26:13

they've got to be properly explored. Otherwise,

26:15

they just sit there and they distract from the

26:18

investigation. The amount

26:20

of people that have said, I

26:22

saw William Tyrrell, and you know it's

26:24

physically not possible, not capable,

26:27

but they're adamant they've seen it. How misleading

26:29

that can be to an investigation. The

26:32

few sightings of Lynn up on the Central

26:34

Coast or whatever, that can be distracting

26:37

to an investigation. Quite often, they're not properly

26:39

explored. It's just a statement from someone

26:41

saying, I saw Lynn at

26:43

the shops or the service station. I took

26:46

review early on with these purported

26:48

sightings that they were all rubbish. I

26:52

was accused during the murder trial by

26:55

Chris's lawyer of, I

26:57

think she used the word mocking or something

27:00

like that, that I was scornful or mocking

27:02

of these sightings. I was mocking of

27:05

them, at least that's how I thought of them. I

27:08

said, well, I took

27:10

the view that they were not confirmed

27:13

sightings. They were just claims

27:16

or hearsay claims of a sighting. Some

27:18

of them originating from the chief suspect,

27:20

for goodness sake. Then

27:23

I was asked, well, what's a confirmed sighting for

27:25

you? The

27:27

best way I was able to explain

27:29

it was a confirmed sighting would

27:32

be if you,

27:35

Gary, were down

27:37

at Palm Beach and

27:39

you bumped into Lynn and said,

27:41

is it you, Lynn? She

27:44

comes up and says, yes, I am Lynn. I'm

27:46

Lynn Sims. Gary, you found me. That's

27:49

a confirmed sighting. You

27:51

might get something like a photograph or something

27:54

else to prove that, but

27:56

everything else was just a self-serving

27:59

garbage. of a killer.

28:01

Well time and time again I've seen

28:04

that and the fence exploited to the hill. There's

28:06

a sighting and with

28:09

the Bowerville trials, there were sightings of 4 year

28:11

old Evelyn Greenup. In the location physically

28:13

she could not have got to. It's just inconceivable.

28:17

But police and the original

28:19

investigation just took short half paid statements.

28:21

Yes I saw Evelyn Greenup, a 4 year old

28:24

child just happened to walk down the shops and

28:26

happened to walk to a water hole and happened to

28:28

walk here and walk there. Not

28:30

one person in the statements was she being supervised

28:33

by anyone or it

28:35

just did not make sense but it's there and it just

28:37

sits there like a festering saw to

28:39

be exploited by defence if

28:42

there is potential charges. But

28:45

it also distracts an ill informed investigation

28:48

too because quite often

28:51

you say police are overworked. Some are overworked,

28:53

some are underworked but if

28:55

there's an out, well she's not missing.

28:57

She was sighted on the central coast. She's left her husband.

29:00

And the first time we heard that Lyn

29:02

was sighted on the central coast in terms

29:04

of a claim by Chris to

29:07

police occurred in 1991 and there's

29:11

a transcript of this

29:13

incredible videotaped interview that he

29:15

did with 2 detectives for

29:17

whom you've got a lot of respect. I know one

29:19

of them, I've got a lot of regard for him Stuart Wilkins.

29:23

Paul Maga and Stuart Wilkins, I

29:25

know both of them and in fact Paul Maga

29:27

was my supervisor for 10

29:29

years in homicide. Just a

29:32

very good detective and I say this

29:34

a man of integrity and utmost

29:36

respect for him and Stuart as well. Yes

29:39

and I met Stuart at Palm Beach on

29:41

the Gold Coast in the early stages of the

29:43

work I was doing on the teacher's pet in 2017. And

29:49

it comes out in the transcript

29:51

and in the videotape of the interview with

29:53

Dawson which they actually conducted on

29:56

Dawson's wedding anniversary

29:58

to the... his second

30:00

wife, the former babysitter. So

30:03

I think they deliberately chose that date

30:05

to try and rattle him because she was the one who

30:07

had fled him and was alleging that

30:09

he'd probably killed his wife. But

30:12

Dawson volunteers that the

30:15

wife of one of Dawson's mates,

30:18

the former manager of a Gosford

30:21

football club, her name was Sue

30:23

the wife and she worked in a fruit barn

30:26

near Gosford and she claimed

30:28

to have seen Lynn driving away or getting

30:30

into a car to drive away from this fruit barn.

30:33

And that account from Chris

30:37

then became part of,

30:39

somehow became part of the reasoning

30:43

of prosecutors to not go forward

30:46

with this case. And it seems

30:48

that the version that Chris

30:51

gave was adopted

30:55

but the alleged witness

30:57

Sue wasn't questioned

30:59

and didn't actually give a statement. And

31:02

it's one of those sort of most life

31:04

changing events you think, but

31:07

for that, could that case

31:09

have actually been cracked all those years ago?

31:11

If she was spoken to and now I didn't never told him

31:14

that, that would have been interesting. Or

31:18

she might have said, look, I think I did see

31:20

someone who looked like Lynn but

31:23

I wasn't that sure. Who knows? She

31:25

died several years later and it

31:29

just then went away.

31:31

But Paul gave evidence in the murder

31:33

trial last year and he recounted

31:36

how he took advice from either

31:39

the prosecution's office or the

31:42

coroner's office back then after

31:44

he and Stuart had worked for

31:46

some time on this case. And they were

31:49

clearly deeply suspicious of Dawson

31:52

and they were right. And they had

31:54

done a huge number of interviews, they'd done a

31:56

lot of work, but the advice

31:58

that they got from higher up.

31:59

groups

32:00

based on this purported witness

32:03

sighting was, well, it's

32:06

going to be pretty hard for us to go forward with that

32:09

in the brief. So let it go

32:11

unless something else comes along. Words to that effect.

32:13

Yeah, I can imagine that playing

32:16

out as you've just relayed it. Let's

32:18

find it back from the day that

32:20

she disappeared. And it was

32:23

a situation and I'll just paraphrase

32:25

but jump in just to put it in context.

32:28

So Chris was working at the school, he's a PE

32:30

teacher, working at the school, he

32:32

befriended a student there, 15

32:35

at the time, referred to as Jenny in

32:37

your book. Yes. And

32:39

he had first noticed her when she was 15

32:42

and then began grooming her when

32:45

she was in year 11 and was 16 years old. And

32:52

he played tennis with her and

32:54

with his wife and another

32:57

friend. And that I think was part

32:59

of a fairly cunning campaign

33:02

to reassure this girl that he

33:05

was a happily married man and he

33:07

was involving his wife and

33:09

his brother. No, absolutely.

33:11

And then the modus operandi

33:13

then develops into having her go

33:16

over and babysit for his

33:18

and Lyn's little girls at Babu,

33:21

which was a huge relief for this girl. We'll

33:23

keep calling her Jenny. That's not her real name. And

33:26

it was a huge relief because in her own home

33:28

there was chaos. She was

33:31

the model vulnerable kid

33:34

who was growing

33:36

up in the house with a divorcee

33:38

mother who drank too much, who

33:41

had recently married a

33:43

bum, who was

33:46

violent, who was also a heavy

33:49

drinker. They had been crowded flat

33:52

and it was

33:55

dysfunctional. And so a

33:57

big home seemingly

33:59

happened. happy, peaceful family home.

34:03

Swimming pool, caring teacher,

34:05

he was her friend, he was

34:07

giving her support, advice, trying

34:10

to apparently, this is

34:13

how it seemed to her in the early stages, help

34:15

her get through this tough period. She's

34:18

got challenges with her schooling

34:20

and HSC the next year and so on

34:22

and he's this kindly teacher who's also

34:25

really popular, well regarded,

34:27

he's got a profile, he's played first

34:29

grade football so that's how it

34:31

starts. And

34:35

then the infatuation on

34:37

his part develops and he

34:41

grooms her with promises

34:43

and cards and

34:46

love letters left in her school bag

34:48

and so on and until one

34:52

afternoon he takes her to

34:54

his parents house at Marubra which

34:57

was his childhood home. His

34:59

parents have gone away, they've got a holiday

35:01

place down at Shoalhaven and

35:03

he when she's 16

35:08

has sex with her in his parents

35:11

bedroom and afterwards

35:14

tells her that she's performed

35:16

really well and this is good for

35:18

her and her wellbeing

35:20

and for her to get through

35:22

these issues and then it just develops

35:25

from there. Classic grooming

35:27

isn't it and just very sinister

35:29

in the way that it was done. He eventually

35:32

moved Jenny into the family

35:34

home and was continuing on

35:37

the affair under the in the marital

35:39

home. Yeah, I know and that

35:41

is one of the most despicable parts of all

35:43

of this. There's a lot about him. There's so

35:45

much that's despicable and treacherous

35:48

and so narcissistic

35:51

but the idea

35:54

that a married man with two

35:56

little girls would bring

35:59

another child. she's just 16,

36:02

into his wife's house

36:04

and his wife's bed while

36:07

his wife is actually still in

36:09

the house, physically in the house, but

36:11

sleeping on the sofa. She's falling

36:13

asleep or whatever and he's having sex with

36:16

his student within

36:18

meters of his sleeping wife. It's just extraordinary.

36:20

And I think it goes to the sense

36:22

that he had of his invincibility.

36:25

He believed perhaps through being

36:29

a very spoiled child and then having

36:32

the looks of a movie

36:34

star and the athleticism

36:36

and physique of a first

36:39

grade footballer, the popularity

36:42

and charisma, the fact that he and his brother

36:44

became pinups. They were models,

36:47

literally models while they were still

36:49

playing football. And I think that

36:51

there would have been a level of hubris

36:54

and arrogance

36:57

and a sense that they were unbeatable.

37:00

They could do what they liked. They

37:02

had the northern beaches and

37:05

the schools and the staff

37:08

all in the palm of their hands and it was

37:11

there for the taking. And that's

37:13

certainly how it came across. The

37:15

relationship he had with his brother Paul

37:17

too, it's quite bizarre in

37:19

itself. Yeah. Gee,

37:21

you wouldn't like to get inside their twin heads

37:24

to work out what's going on with them. It

37:27

is weird, very weird. It's yeah.

37:30

What went on between those brothers and it's

37:33

all in more detail in

37:35

the book but it's quite

37:37

confronting. I've seen

37:39

a lot in my time as you would have seen

37:42

but yeah, there was something at another

37:45

level what was going on there.

37:49

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wherever you get your podcasts. And

38:21

the fact that this was

38:23

not the type of debauchery you're talking there

38:26

but just the fact that these teachers were out

38:28

socialising with these young kids. It

38:31

really, it's something that shouldn't

38:33

have happened. When it wasn't a case of well

38:36

it was legal what was going on, no, he was

38:38

a teacher, she was a student and there

38:40

is I think it was cardinal knowledge or

38:42

whatever the offence was at the

38:45

state, someone in a position of power,

38:47

it's totally inappropriate. The circumstances

38:49

leading up to the disappearance of Bazarra

38:52

in itself and this is my understanding

38:54

and I'll just paraphrase what I

38:56

picked up is that Lynn found out

38:58

about the affair that was going on and

39:01

Jennifer moved out of the family home and

39:04

Chris wanted Jennifer back and all

39:06

that. She went up the coast, South

39:09

West Rocks and then he

39:11

was trying to get her to come back and

39:14

then when Lynn, as

39:17

you described after they'd been to see the marriage

39:19

counsellor walked out and for all intents

39:22

and purposes happy, Lynn's disappeared

39:24

and then Chris brought Jenny back to the

39:27

family home. Is that correct? Absolutely.

39:30

I mean like we sit here shaking our heads

39:32

because you look at, I call

39:34

it red flags from a homicide investigation

39:37

point of view. What the hell? I know.

39:40

That's like the whole red flag factory isn't it? Yeah,

39:42

it's not a red flag, it's a balloon, it's a flag,

39:44

it's fireworks, it's everything. Moving

39:48

the girlfriend in a couple

39:50

of days after the wife has disappeared. So

39:52

damning and in the murder trial, he

39:55

was trying to argue that it wasn't 24 or 48

39:57

hours later

39:59

that he moved her in. It was

40:01

more like a week or maybe

40:04

nine days later. So what? That

40:06

makes a difference. And Justice Harrison at

40:08

one point said something like, I don't understand

40:12

how that makes it much better

40:14

or how it changes things if it wasn't

40:16

two days after his wife disappeared if it

40:18

was nine days. And it was a very

40:21

good point. The very valid point. But little

40:23

things that came out too is that like

40:25

her clothes were all still there. Her jewellery.

40:28

Her jewellery is still there. Everything that if

40:31

you wonder how long the investigation

40:33

would have had to run for if police got

40:35

onto it right at the start. And Gary, I

40:38

like a woman, a mother,

40:40

a wife leaving behind her jewellery to a bit

40:43

of a betting tragic,

40:47

having a sports bed

40:49

app stuffed with cash but not using it anymore.

40:51

You know what I mean? Does it happen? It

40:53

doesn't make sense. And also like

40:56

leaving kids. And I've seen a couple

40:58

of cases in my career that I've been involved

41:00

in when the new girlfriend's on the scene

41:02

before the wife's

41:05

even been buried. It's

41:07

crazy. But yeah,

41:10

I'm just gobsmacked how it wasn't

41:12

jumped on. But the sequence of events, he

41:14

didn't report or Lynn wasn't reported

41:17

missing until five weeks after. It

41:20

sounds like the investigation was given like

41:23

take a number and wait. There wasn't much

41:26

actual investigation that was done at that start. No.

41:29

And I think it's very relevant. And

41:31

I'm careful about this

41:33

because I don't like to throw

41:36

mud at people who

41:38

can no longer defend themselves because they're

41:41

deceased. So I've tried

41:44

to deal with this with

41:47

respect and balance. But I also

41:50

want to say it. The

41:53

president of the Bellrose Eagles,

41:55

Rugby League club at that time was

41:58

a senior man lead detective,

42:01

a fellow who was well known. He

42:04

had a lot of respect as a copper

42:07

and his nickname was Smacker. The

42:12

Dawson twins had been

42:14

recruited by him, having retired

42:16

from the Newtown Jets, to play for the

42:18

Bellrose Eagles as captain coaches.

42:20

I mean, they were serious players

42:23

still after leaving the

42:25

Jets. So

42:27

they were playing for the team, playing

42:30

for the club, whose president was

42:33

the senior manly detective. And

42:36

in August 1982, when

42:38

Chris Dawson actually wrote

42:41

in his own handwriting a

42:43

statement about the circumstances of

42:45

Lynn's disappearance, he wrote in

42:48

there that this detective

42:50

was advising him on

42:52

procedure. And

42:54

it all begs the question. I'm

42:56

not suggesting that that copper suspected

42:59

a murder and told

43:02

the uniformed constables

43:05

or other detectives... The gate gassed on it. I'm not

43:07

suggesting that. But what I

43:09

wouldn't rule out is that that

43:11

senior detective said, well,

43:14

look, it's Chris and he's

43:17

a good bloke. We know him. He's

43:19

misses his bugger off. We need to

43:21

be careful with this and show him some sympathy

43:23

and handle it well. I

43:26

was a police officer at the time. I was working in

43:28

detectives. I know the world and

43:31

I tend to agree with you. I can't see... Yeah,

43:34

there's levels of corruption or incompetence,

43:36

but to pull up

43:38

a murder investigation, that's taking

43:41

the highest level for

43:43

corruption. But I can see that

43:45

influence. Oh, he's a footy star. He's not

43:47

a bad bloke. He's a good bloke, as you said.

43:50

I can hear those words being said if

43:52

the case has been discussed. No, no,

43:54

he's a good bloke. He wouldn't have done that. That

43:58

little comment can just... change

44:00

the direction of the investigation, not consciously,

44:03

it's almost subconsciously. We

44:05

don't really have to put a lot of effort

44:07

into this. No one's really suspicious of it. And

44:10

I think it did play a part. Yeah. It's

44:12

not corruption as we know corruption. It's

44:14

more like process corruption where

44:16

it distorts the proper process. And

44:20

the kind of comment that you and I are picturing

44:22

and almost hearing being made

44:25

is often preceded with a, �Oh,

44:28

mate. We know this,

44:30

mate. Come on. Yeah. He

44:32

wouldn't have done it. Did you see him play last week? We

44:34

beat such and such. Yeah. He made so

44:37

many fantastic tackles and he'll

44:39

be running out for us again on the sad day. I

44:41

can imagine it happened. And people that,

44:43

well, they are stars now, but there's a lot of different

44:45

stars that you get. But back in

44:48

those days, we were talking the 80s

44:50

and 90s, the NRL, they

44:52

were big name personalities in

44:55

the community, weren't they? They were the sports

44:57

stars at the time. But there's

44:59

another really bizarre feature of this case.

45:02

And that is very early on, Len's

45:05

father, Len Sims, said

45:08

to the family, �The bastards done

45:10

are in.� Meaning he's killed

45:12

her. Len had that

45:15

belief straight away and his son

45:17

and his wife and his

45:20

daughter, they all jumped on him and said, �Oh, you can't say

45:22

that. That's unfair. That's not

45:24

right. You know, poor Chris.� Because

45:27

they very loyally,

45:30

naively believed Chris.

45:34

But Len didn't follow through.

45:37

He didn't agitate, having called

45:40

it correctly at the start. I

45:43

find that almost inexplicable

45:46

as a father. And again,

45:48

he's not around to account for why

45:51

he didn't pat his daughter in

45:53

Maryland, his daughter-in-law, have

45:55

said that that just wasn't his way. He was

45:58

elderly by then. He

46:01

didn't often leave the house and

46:03

that if Chris had come to the house,

46:06

Len would have challenged Chris and put

46:08

it on him in his own home. But

46:11

insofar as taking

46:13

active steps outside the home

46:16

and agitating for an investigation, that

46:19

wasn't Len's so-called way. Headly,

46:21

I think a lot of people, there's this misconception

46:24

that someone like him would go to the police.

46:27

But what I learnt through my career, some

46:30

people have been brought up a certain way to respect

46:32

the police. It's a different era where

46:35

police weren't questioned if the police said something. Don't

46:38

worry ma'am, the police have got this investigation.

46:40

I think that plays a part in some of these cases

46:42

too. They can have their concerns but they put

46:45

their trust and respect in the police and think well

46:47

if there's something untoward, we'll know from

46:49

the police. I have seen that where

46:52

I've asked people, you've thought this, you

46:54

had your suspicions, why didn't you come to us? Well

46:56

you're the police. We thought you would do

46:59

what we expected you to do. We thought

47:01

you'd be mind readers. Yeah, well

47:03

it's just we thought you'd do your job. Sadly

47:07

it happens too often. Look

47:11

we might take a break here. To me

47:13

at this point in time, it looks like a very straightforward

47:16

murder investigation if it was brought to the

47:18

attention and the police. When we get

47:21

back to part two, I just want to talk about

47:23

what you uncovered and how it started to

47:25

evolve into what became everyone

47:28

knows as the teacher's pet. And the investigation,

47:31

also want to talk about your relationship with the

47:33

police. When you were getting information,

47:35

information that was, I think

47:37

it was fairly obvious, it was crucial information

47:40

and the road blocks you had with police, how

47:42

that was overcome and how it led

47:44

to the trial and successful conviction.

47:47

Looking forward to it. Thank

47:55

you.