0:00

Well, hello there and welcome to this

0:02

episode of the Terry Cole show. I am

0:04

super excited to introduce you

0:06

to my new pal, Dr. Jessica

0:08

Zucker. She's a Los Angeles-based psychologist

0:11

specializing in reproductive health and the

0:13

author of the award-winning book I

0:15

Had a Miscarriage, a memoir, a

0:17

movement. Jessica's the creator of the

0:19

number one viral hashtag, I had

0:22

a miscarriage, her writing has appeared

0:24

in the New York Times, the

0:26

Washington Post, New York magazine, Vogue,

0:28

Harvard Business Review, among many other

0:31

places. She's been featured on NPR,

0:33

the Today's Show, Good Morning America,

0:35

and earned advanced degrees from New

0:37

York University and Harvard University. So

0:39

she is a smarter pants. But

0:41

her newest book is what we

0:43

were talking about. We talked about

0:46

her first book as well. But

0:48

her newest book is really compelling.

0:50

It's called Normalize It. Upending the

0:52

silence, stigma, and shame that shape

0:54

women's lives. which is really something

0:56

that just came out two days

0:58

ago, and we just talked all about

1:00

all of the things that we

1:03

are indoctrinated. It's like a cult

1:05

of shame that women are

1:07

sort of indoctrinated into from

1:09

getting your period to having

1:11

a miscarriage, to going into

1:14

Perry menopause, or menopause. So

1:16

many things and

1:18

so I really

1:20

hope that you

1:22

enjoy this illuminating

1:24

conversation with Dr. Jessica

1:26

Zucker as much as

1:29

I enjoyed talking to

1:31

her. This is the

1:33

Terry Cole show and

1:35

as you might have guessed

1:37

I'm your host Terry Cole. For

1:39

over two decades I've been a

1:41

licensed psychotherapist, love and boundaries expert,

1:44

and I'm also the founder of

1:46

the Real Love Revolution and Boundary

1:48

Boot Camp. On this show I'll

1:50

bring you simple strategies based on

1:53

practical psychology, inspiring expert interviews, and

1:55

my own insights and observations from

1:57

my time on the front lines.

1:59

the fascinating world of

2:02

entertainment, empowerment, and

2:05

mental health. Now

2:07

let's get going with today's

2:09

episode. All right, I am

2:11

super excited to welcome Dr.

2:14

Jessica Zucker to the

2:16

Terry Cole show. Dr.

2:18

Jessica Zucker, welcome. Thank

2:20

you so much for having me.

2:23

I'm super excited. So you have

2:25

a new book that just came

2:27

out two days ago called Normalize

2:29

it upending the silent stigma and

2:31

shame that shapes women's lives. There

2:34

it is, I love it. So I want

2:36

to talk a little bit before we

2:38

get into the book or the why

2:40

of this, we all have these origin

2:42

stories because we all do what we

2:44

do for reasons. So what would your

2:47

origin story be? Interesting. So why

2:49

have I come at this topic the

2:51

way that I have? And actually how

2:53

did you end up doing what

2:55

you're doing in the world? How

2:57

did that trajectory get you? All

3:00

right, well then that's a long

3:02

story. So I'm a Los Angeles-based

3:05

psychologist and I specialize in women's

3:07

reproductive and maternal mental health and

3:09

have done so for about 15

3:12

years at this point. Most people

3:14

think, most people assume

3:16

and understandably so, that

3:18

perhaps I specialized in

3:20

this because of something specific

3:22

that I had lived through

3:24

that related to the topic

3:27

as many therapists do specialize

3:29

in stuff that they've walked through.

3:31

For me, I have a

3:33

background in public health and

3:35

I worked in international women's

3:38

health, women's rights for several

3:40

years before pursuing my PhD.

3:42

And my vision for my

3:45

clinical practice was to

3:47

somehow marry my background

3:49

in public health with

3:51

the clinical work. Up

3:53

until that point, my passion

3:55

really came from simply

3:57

being a woman myself.

4:00

being a woman living in

4:02

this culture, telling us what

4:04

to do, what not to do,

4:06

how to act, how not to

4:08

act, all the shoulds that we

4:10

come up against. But I

4:13

had not lived through

4:15

anything in particular that had

4:17

really sort of shaped the

4:19

way that I was thinking

4:21

about my career path until

4:24

it did. So 16 weeks

4:26

into my second pregnancy

4:28

I had a miscarriage

4:32

while I was home

4:34

by myself. And suffice

4:36

it to say that that

4:38

of course upended

4:40

my professional

4:42

trajectory, my personal

4:45

life, it impacted me

4:47

in such a deep

4:49

and profound way.

4:51

All the while though for 10

4:54

years or something, I

4:56

had been sitting with

4:59

women hearing these stories

5:01

of grief, of loss, of

5:04

shame, of silence, of

5:06

stigma, of alienation, of

5:08

self-blame. And until

5:11

I was actually in

5:13

their shoes, I related

5:15

to them empatically, of

5:17

course, I had read

5:19

all the books. I

5:22

had gone to all

5:24

the trainings, I had,

5:26

you know, been in

5:28

consultation groups, nothing could

5:30

have prepared me for

5:32

this type of

5:34

understanding. Yeah. Yeah. The lived

5:36

experience is so different. So

5:39

how did you move through

5:41

that grief? Like, how did

5:44

you actually do it? I mean,

5:46

it's a good question

5:48

because... In my first book,

5:50

I talk a lot about

5:53

not knowing, like

5:55

despite all of my

5:57

academic, you know, accolades.

5:59

and the support around me,

6:02

I was stymied. Like

6:04

I did not know what

6:06

to do for myself. It

6:08

was sort of like, do

6:11

you take a month off or

6:13

do you go back to work?

6:15

Like if I go back

6:17

to work, I'm focused on

6:19

the people that I adore

6:21

and want to help. I

6:24

also then hopefully stave off.

6:26

their own worry about me

6:28

and my situation. If I

6:31

stay home, am I going to

6:33

think about it more? Feel it

6:35

even more. Is that healthy?

6:37

Is it not? Like I

6:39

did not know. It was so

6:42

interesting to, you know, be

6:44

a psychologist, have a PhD,

6:46

and be so lost. It

6:48

was an opportunity, honestly. I

6:50

mean, I didn't see it as

6:52

such at the time because

6:54

I was a huge pain.

6:56

But in my first book,

6:58

I do talk about how I

7:01

did go back to work,

7:03

like a handful of

7:05

days later. And do

7:07

I regret it? I don't.

7:09

I think that having

7:11

the focus of and

7:13

the passion of my

7:15

work in front of

7:17

me was a nice reprieve,

7:20

a welcome reprieve. from

7:22

the grief, but then

7:24

the minute I got

7:27

back into my car to

7:29

head home, I was overwrought

7:32

with like, how is this

7:34

my life? How did this

7:36

happen? And how is my

7:39

story this dramatic,

7:41

so traumatic, like how

7:44

do I process this

7:46

in a way that can

7:48

help my patients ultimately?

7:52

Right. Because, you know, so I

7:54

mentioned that I lost the baby

7:56

while I was home by myself,

7:59

but then... Because I

8:01

was home alone, my husband

8:03

was racing home to be

8:05

with me, but I did

8:07

not feel safe or comfortable

8:09

calling 911. I didn't want

8:11

like random men running through

8:13

my house to help me

8:15

when I had a baby

8:17

between my legs, a fetus,

8:19

which was my legs. So

8:21

my doctor walked me through

8:23

what to do by phone.

8:25

So I had to cut

8:27

the umbilical cord myself. Promptly

8:30

began to hemorrhage. Sure. We

8:32

brought the fetus in a

8:34

bag to my doctor's office

8:36

and then I had to

8:38

undergo an unmedicated DNC. So

8:40

it was like the trauma

8:42

was so elongated and was

8:44

unlike anything I had ever

8:46

heard. Like I just I

8:48

didn't know that things could

8:50

unfold like this. It felt

8:52

like I was in like

8:54

some sort of documentary. You

8:56

know, it was it was

8:59

and I was scared that

9:01

I might lose my life.

9:03

that day. So all of

9:05

the things, you know, I

9:07

was already a mother, so

9:09

I also felt like I

9:11

needed to quote unquote keep

9:13

it together on some level

9:15

for him. So when you

9:17

ask how, you know, I

9:19

got through it, I think

9:21

that the best answer is

9:23

like I fumbled my way

9:25

through for a while and

9:28

then I found the page.

9:30

Like I had always loved

9:32

writing. and loved writing my

9:34

dissertation even, and I started

9:36

sort of writing ad nauseum

9:38

for every outlet about various

9:40

aspects of miscarriage, pregnancy loss,

9:42

stillbirth, life after loss, sex

9:44

after loss, relationships after loss,

9:46

like every iteration of the

9:48

topic. And the book for

9:50

those who are wondering is

9:52

called I had a miscarriage,

9:54

a memoir, a movement by

9:57

Dr. Jessica Zucker, and that

9:59

came out in 2021. Yes,

10:01

but available. still. It is

10:03

available still and it seems

10:05

like it wasn't that long

10:07

ago and yet my loss

10:09

was 12 years ago at

10:11

this point. So yeah so

10:13

let's let's fast forward a

10:15

little bit this this is

10:17

great but moving into what

10:19

inspired you to write the

10:21

book that just came out

10:23

two days ago. So when

10:26

you think about your inspiration,

10:28

normalize it is the name

10:30

of the book. And it's,

10:32

you know, the subtitle is

10:34

Upending the Silent Stigma and

10:36

Shame that shape women's lives.

10:38

It's funny, you know, Jess,

10:40

when I read the subtitle,

10:42

it's just like, I can't

10:44

even explain how I felt

10:46

physically, but it was like,

10:48

boom, resonated so hardcore because

10:50

it does. shape our lives.

10:52

It has shaped our lives.

10:55

And even those of us

10:57

who've had a lot of

10:59

therapy and those of us

11:01

who are very vocal, it

11:03

has still shaped our lives

11:05

because you have to deal

11:07

with the shame of the

11:09

things you're not hiding if

11:11

you become someone who doesn't.

11:13

So tell me a little

11:15

bit about the germination of

11:17

this book and the trajectory

11:19

of all that I've focused

11:21

on throughout my career and

11:23

my life. And we can't

11:26

have this anymore. The cultural

11:28

silence that then leads to

11:30

the stigma, that then results

11:32

in the shame. It's this

11:34

swirling trifecta and it's antiquated.

11:36

And so... I feel like

11:38

this book is a call

11:40

to action, but it's a

11:42

compassionate one. It's not saying

11:44

that everybody has to take

11:46

out their bullhorn and share

11:48

their stories on Instagram or

11:50

with the entire universe. You

11:52

don't. In fact, I have

11:55

some examples in this book

11:57

of people just whispering to

11:59

a neighbor or sharing with

12:01

their best friend or of

12:03

course sharing in the context

12:05

of therapy and how not

12:07

being silent and shedding that

12:09

stigma and moving away from

12:11

that shame allows us to

12:13

experience such a deep sense

12:15

of vulnerability and ultimately connection.

12:17

There's something really powerful though

12:19

about naming the shame. Because

12:21

I think that there's all

12:24

these misrepresentations of why, of

12:26

the reasons to not talk

12:28

about things that people consider

12:30

private or too much or

12:32

whatever it is. And the

12:34

shame as you know, Briday

12:36

Brown talks quite a bit

12:38

about, you know, what are

12:40

the conditions that allow shame

12:42

to grow? And secrecy, of

12:44

course, and silence, of course.

12:46

are the two biggest ones.

12:48

And so I love the

12:50

idea of having it be

12:53

an invitation, a gentle invitation

12:55

to not breed this shame

12:57

in our lives. And it's

12:59

in a way, you're going

13:01

first, right, by sharing your,

13:03

and you did go first

13:05

by sharing your story about

13:07

the miscarriage and by having

13:09

a whole movement so that,

13:11

I mean, it's such an

13:13

underrepresented. experience because it's such

13:15

a huge experience and so

13:17

I mean one and four,

13:19

I don't even know the

13:22

stats, but I know that

13:24

it's at least that. Right.

13:26

And so the invitation to

13:28

go, this is a big

13:30

deal, this is harmful, this

13:32

is a major loss and

13:34

what happens to your life

13:36

and obviously you've written extensively

13:38

about this. But with the

13:40

normalize it, how are you,

13:42

and let's talk a little

13:44

bit about the book, and

13:46

what ways are you inviting

13:48

people to normalize it? with

13:51

whom are you, or is

13:53

the book stories of other

13:55

people sharing, stories of you

13:57

sharing, ways that we can

13:59

share? I see, yeah, great

14:01

question. Okay, yeah, so the

14:03

book basically takes on everything

14:05

from girlhood through menopause and

14:07

all that's in between. And

14:09

it's not because menoposes end

14:11

of life, but I'm trying

14:13

to take on all of

14:15

the potential milestones that girls

14:17

and women navigate that we.

14:19

still have difficulty integrating into

14:22

everyday language and sort of

14:24

huddling in together and saying,

14:26

welcome to the club. Instead,

14:28

it's like, oh, I don't

14:30

want to be here. Like,

14:32

you know, I'm too uncomfortable.

14:34

I'm embarrassed. I am ashamed.

14:36

I'm a failure. So in

14:38

the book, you know, we

14:40

start with girlhood. Why? Because

14:42

that is essentially where Carol

14:44

Gilligan, Dr. Carol Gilligan, who

14:46

is, you know, forerunner, psychologist

14:48

in the field, she talks

14:51

about girls don't lose their

14:53

voice. They have a voice.

14:55

They don't need to find

14:57

a voice. They already have

14:59

an established voice. They are

15:01

taught through culture. being at

15:03

school, being in the world,

15:05

being, you know, seeing things

15:07

on TV, the media, whatever,

15:09

to quiet it. And so

15:11

I wanted to start there

15:13

because it's like, oh, wow,

15:15

how does that then feed

15:17

into, as we get a

15:20

little bit older, body image,

15:22

right? So it's, it's, it's,

15:24

it's girlhood menstruation. how are

15:26

girls talked to or not

15:28

talked to about menstruation, all

15:30

the shame, all the silence

15:32

around that, how they come

15:34

to think of themselves somehow

15:36

as maybe dirty quote-unquote or

15:38

weird or different, and girls,

15:40

the research finds that girls

15:42

are actually sort of like

15:44

hiding their symptoms because they

15:46

feel ashamed of them. And

15:49

so we go from menstruation

15:51

puberty to body image, the

15:53

eating disorders, and then the

15:55

book also takes on friendships,

15:57

you know, and how we

15:59

don't even talk enough about

16:01

that. you know, how there

16:03

are changes in our friendships

16:05

over time for various reasons,

16:07

and how even that is

16:09

sort of stigmatized and we're

16:11

sort of hush-hush about that.

16:13

Divorce, motherhood, deciding not to

16:15

become a mother, you know,

16:18

obviously pregnancy losses included in

16:20

this book and then the

16:22

idea of menopause. It's somehow

16:24

people don't. We don't educate

16:26

girls and women that they

16:28

will all eventually get to

16:30

a place menopause. And so

16:32

you ask how what kinds

16:34

of stories are threaded through.

16:36

So I use sort of

16:38

fictitious patient stories in each

16:40

chapter to anger it and

16:42

to illustrate what things feel

16:44

like and look like in

16:47

the therapy room. and how

16:49

people are opting to share

16:51

and sometimes not to share

16:53

their stories and sort of

16:55

how that works out. So

16:57

it's not like every example

16:59

ends with some sort of

17:01

like, ooh, and they found

17:03

their ultimate freedom, of course,

17:05

because sometimes we do share

17:07

our deepest truths and we're

17:09

not met with the entire

17:11

spectrum. I think they you

17:13

know we're seeing this movement

17:15

now and I've been a

17:18

part of this for years

17:20

because I started a pariamenopause,

17:22

probably my mid-40s, like with

17:24

insomnia and stuff like that,

17:26

and then, you know, had

17:28

full-blown menoposses. I went through

17:30

it because I'm 60 now.

17:32

And I talked about it,

17:34

and it's funny, I was

17:36

talking about it publicly because

17:38

I needed help, because I

17:40

was like, what is going

17:42

on? Why is sex suddenly

17:44

painful? Like, it was shocking

17:47

to me. And then I

17:49

was like, I'm just going

17:51

to interview experts on my

17:53

podcast on my podcast. and

17:55

I'm going to find out.

17:57

And that's literally how I

17:59

found a place and how

18:01

I got on hormone replacement

18:03

therapy and how I started

18:05

getting really educated. And this

18:07

was years ago. And now

18:09

one of my friend, Tamps

18:11

and Fidel, has a book

18:13

coming out, how to menopause,

18:16

and Naomi Watts book, which

18:18

you're over there, dare I

18:20

say it. And there's something

18:22

so beautiful and sort of

18:24

speaks to what your book

18:26

is really about that's happening,

18:28

at least in the spaces.

18:30

around paramilitary menopause and menopause

18:32

because you have all of

18:34

these women coming of this

18:36

age at the same time

18:38

who do have voices and

18:40

who are using them so

18:42

yeah to me it feels

18:45

very um I don't know

18:47

it's it's exciting that people

18:49

talking about it and getting

18:51

rid of that shame right

18:53

and these are powerful women

18:55

who have had careers and

18:57

know what they're talking about

18:59

and culture tells us that

19:01

we become irrelevant I don't

19:03

know. In LA it's probably

19:05

in our 40s, but definitely

19:07

everywhere else it's at least

19:09

50s onward. And so for

19:11

these amazing women to be

19:14

writing books on the topic

19:16

I think is so helpful

19:18

and so powerful. And my

19:20

hope is that it gets

19:22

into the hands of younger

19:24

women so that they know

19:26

what's common. Absolutely. I also

19:28

think that there's something really

19:30

powerful about... declaring, like, like,

19:32

for me, this whole becoming

19:34

invisible thing, like, not a

19:36

chance, like, no, I... I

19:38

am fully rejecting, I am

19:40

fully claiming my visibility, am

19:43

I right to be visible

19:45

from now until the end

19:47

of my life? No. Because

19:49

we have to do it.

19:51

We have to decide. I

19:53

feel like there's something, another

19:55

thing we don't talk about,

19:57

and maybe you do in

19:59

the book, and let's find

20:01

out, is about the aging

20:03

process. And sort of what

20:05

is the expectation, as you

20:07

said, depending on where you

20:09

live. Maybe there's different, but

20:11

the truth is. That's pretty

20:14

much the same across the

20:16

board, right? Where you're going

20:18

to get into your 50s

20:20

and you're going to be

20:22

not valuable, not seen as

20:24

vital in some way. Or

20:26

sexy or sexual or any

20:28

of that. Yeah, all of

20:30

the things. And so for

20:32

me, I made a decision

20:34

when I started really seeing

20:36

changes in my face. You

20:38

don't even where I was

20:40

like, okay, what am I

20:43

doing? So I'm either am

20:45

I doing it, am I

20:47

going to do it naturally?

20:49

We'll see. I don't judge

20:51

anyone for doing anything. Like

20:53

they do whatever makes you

20:55

feel good. I'm not the,

20:57

I'm not the police when

20:59

it comes to this. But

21:01

I had about five years

21:03

where I've really in therapy

21:05

talked about it with my

21:07

husband. Like would I, would

21:09

I do what I want

21:12

to? Talking to my sister.

21:14

We used to always kid

21:16

around about it. We used

21:18

to always kid around about

21:20

it. You know. Right. And

21:22

then I came to this

21:24

really kind of profound realization

21:26

that I would take time,

21:28

energy, money, and instead of

21:30

putting it into altering myself

21:32

in some kind of a

21:34

different way, I would put

21:36

it into radical celebration, radical

21:38

acceptance of this is 60.

21:41

What does that look like

21:43

for you? Tell me about

21:45

this. I love it. I

21:47

want to join the movement.

21:49

Please do, jumping on my

21:51

trampoline every day of a

21:53

mini trampoline. That's my workout,

21:55

hiking with my dog and

21:57

my husband. I got chickens.

21:59

I have geese. It means

22:01

spending time with my girlfriends.

22:03

I have the same friends

22:05

since Nixon was in office.

22:07

So it means going away

22:10

with my same seven friends

22:12

I've had all of my

22:14

life. And I have many,

22:16

I collect women, I love

22:18

women, so I have many

22:20

other friends too. But carving

22:22

out time to do things

22:24

that inspire me. you know

22:26

I'm writing my next book

22:28

right now so you know

22:30

there's there's you know a

22:32

certain amount of grinding when

22:34

you're writing books yes but

22:36

also joy and also meditate

22:39

I meditate every day like

22:41

part of it is I

22:43

think rejecting the narrative because

22:45

I'm not letting anyone else

22:47

determine my value I am

22:49

I am I Literally, me,

22:51

only me. Yes. I know

22:53

my value. And I've got

22:55

something to say, and it's

22:57

valuable, and I'm an expert

22:59

at what I do, and

23:01

that's valuable. And also, I

23:03

don't need, I don't need

23:05

a 40-year-old man's gaze telling

23:07

me my value. No. Like,

23:10

and fuck society in respect

23:12

to that too. Like, absolutely

23:14

not. So I also follow

23:16

women who are doing, who

23:18

are inspiring me in a

23:20

similar way, whether it's Isabella

23:22

Rossolini, whether it's Jamie Lee

23:24

Curtis, whether it's Jamie Lee

23:26

Curtis, whether it's, there's all

23:28

of these Andy McDowell, lovely

23:30

women doing it, their own

23:32

way. And again, this is

23:34

not to shame anyone. If

23:36

you had a face, let

23:39

go you. I'm not, there's

23:41

literally no judgment, I swear

23:43

to. Yeah, like, but we,

23:45

it's like men wouldn't be

23:47

talking about this, you know,

23:49

and that's the interesting thing.

23:51

I think that like, you

23:53

know, you're mentioning these women

23:55

who are embracing aging, which

23:57

is just a natural process

23:59

and we're looking up to

24:01

them because we're like, oh,

24:03

because everybody else is doing

24:05

something to try to look

24:08

like an earlier version of

24:10

themselves. Yeah, but the shame.

24:12

And I don't see men

24:14

talking about this. And yeah,

24:16

the shame of no longer

24:18

being the object, you know,

24:20

objectified and the object of,

24:22

you know, oggling is an

24:24

interesting transition. And I think

24:27

it would be helpful if we

24:29

were taught to, as it seems

24:31

like you're doing, you know, celebrating

24:34

that, integrating that, wrestling with it,

24:36

you know, I mean, sure, it

24:38

is a lot to go through

24:41

these transitions. It is a lot.

24:43

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, to go

24:45

from, you know, being fertile or

24:48

having, you know, one's period to

24:50

not, is like, wow, okay. I

24:52

am not the spring chicken anymore,

24:55

but what does that mean? And

24:57

you know, and where else can

24:59

we find meaning? You know, it's

25:02

like, our culture places so much

25:04

value on the externalization of so

25:06

many things and that, you know,

25:09

our beauty and the attention that

25:11

we get, the validation that we

25:14

get to other people. What about

25:16

inside? And it sounds like you're

25:18

doing exactly that, which is so

25:21

inspiring. Why, thanks, Jess. But part

25:23

of it too is I used

25:25

to be a talent agent for

25:28

super models and celebrities before I

25:30

became a therapist. I remember, yes,

25:32

it's just a whole different career,

25:35

but, and I remember someone saying

25:37

to me, more than one person

25:39

being like, oh my God, how

25:42

do you rep, doesn't it make

25:44

you feel so insecure to represent

25:46

super models? And I was always

25:49

like, no. Because I'm

25:51

not a supermodel. Also because I'm

25:53

beautiful too. Like why does it

25:55

have to be the compare and

25:58

the contrast? Which. I find so

26:00

fascinating, you know, it's like even

26:02

even when it comes to pregnancy

26:04

loss, it's like people are preparing

26:07

and contrasting am I allowed to

26:09

feel badly about a six-week loss

26:11

versus a six-year loss versus a

26:14

26-week loss like Jesus. How is

26:16

it that we have come up

26:18

with these hierarchies of pain or

26:21

shame for disappointment when you yourself

26:23

are beautiful, when somebody six-week is

26:25

that's important to them because it's

26:27

their lives. Yes. Yes. So forget

26:30

compare and despair. This is part

26:32

of the message of what you're

26:34

talking about, what we're talking about,

26:37

and focus sort of your eyes

26:39

on your own paper. And I

26:41

think that this book really is

26:43

an invitation. What happened for me

26:46

in doing the research about the

26:48

book and about you is I

26:50

started really looking into different corners

26:53

of... Is there parts of my

26:55

life where I am holding shame?

26:57

Like is there parts of my

27:00

stories that I'm not telling because

27:02

of shame or are there things

27:04

that I'm repressing? And you know,

27:06

I found a few things and

27:09

I did some journaling about it.

27:11

So I do feel like you

27:13

guys listening. If you feel like

27:16

you're hiding, if there's a part

27:18

of you that really feels identified

27:20

with what we're talking about, with

27:22

feeling less than because of something

27:25

that the power that it has

27:27

on you, you're giving it more

27:29

power by staying silent. Right? Yeah,

27:32

it's like if you feel less

27:34

than or if you feel too

27:36

much, you know, there's a lot

27:39

of that as well that women

27:41

are made to feel like too

27:43

much in a variety of situations.

27:45

And I think whatever it is

27:48

that lives inside of you is

27:50

important. And again, it doesn't have

27:52

to be, you know, that you

27:55

get on a TED Talk stage

27:57

and share the entire globe. But

27:59

it's more about like you're saying,

28:01

like acknowledging it for yourself, like

28:04

journaling about it, I think is

28:06

a perfect example. I'm just putting

28:08

it out there, no longer caging

28:11

it within yourself. And you can

28:13

decide later, oh, do I want

28:15

to share this with a friend?

28:18

Do I want to throw it

28:20

away? Do I want to have

28:22

a party about it? Whatever it

28:24

is, at least it's been acknowledged.

28:27

Yes. And when we move that

28:29

up and out, it's why a

28:31

lot of times I'll have therapy

28:34

clients, like write letters to people,

28:36

even if they're dead, right? Even

28:38

if people are not here. I'm

28:41

like, but if you still have

28:43

something to say, then it's a

28:45

valuable exercise to say it. And

28:47

then you could read it out

28:50

loud to a friend. You could

28:52

then burn it. Like there's lots

28:54

of choices of ritualistic things that

28:57

we can do. Yes. But I

28:59

love the idea of. us being

29:01

proactive as you're sharing with us

29:03

in this book about not letting

29:06

it morph into shame. Like doing

29:08

something before, recognizing that we're all

29:10

in the same boat. I know

29:13

and that's the thing about shame.

29:15

It makes people hide in their

29:17

own little corners thinking they're so

29:20

alone and they feel isolated and

29:22

that's when depression comes and anxiety

29:24

comes and all of these big...

29:26

and sometimes damaging feelings that then

29:29

make us so disconnected from the

29:31

community that is right there, but

29:33

we just feel like somehow we

29:36

can't reach them. Yeah, it's interesting.

29:38

It's like part of the way

29:40

that you're leading in this space

29:42

is by sharing. So the modeled

29:45

behavior that especially the first book

29:47

in this book as well, it

29:49

gives us permission. And I feel

29:52

like there's something so powerful. about

29:54

you owning your own story and

29:56

sharing it, gives other people permission

29:59

to share their story. And we

30:01

need that in leadership because it's

30:03

one thing to say, this is

30:05

what you need to do. But

30:08

what you're doing is you are

30:10

doing it. You are actually modeling

30:12

the behavior, allowing yourself to be

30:15

vulnerable, sharing your tender parts with

30:17

us. And there's something really moving

30:19

about that. And I think that

30:21

I imagine from both books that

30:24

you, I mean, what are you

30:26

hearing from? from people in the

30:28

world. I mean, it's interesting. I

30:31

felt like with my first article

30:33

for the New York Times, like,

30:35

that's exactly how I envisioned it,

30:38

what you said, modeling. And I

30:40

also knew it was a professional

30:42

risk, potentially. I thought, oh, what

30:44

about, you know, prior patients of

30:47

mine, if they come across it,

30:49

are they going to be scared

30:51

for current patients that come across

30:54

it? Are they going to feel?

30:56

no longer safe in my presence

30:58

or again like nervous that something

31:00

that happened to me could happen

31:03

to them. And you know I

31:05

did this sort of calculating of

31:07

the risk and I decided it

31:10

was worth it because I hoped

31:12

that if enough people around the

31:14

world saw this you know hashtag

31:17

I had a miscarriage sign. And

31:19

I was inviting them to come

31:21

out of the woodwork and share

31:23

their story. Again, not on the

31:26

phone page necessarily, but just even

31:28

with themselves, if they had suppressed

31:30

it or pushed it down, my

31:33

hope was that we would see

31:35

a true cultural change where people

31:37

would no longer whisper, I had

31:39

a miscarriage, or that we wouldn't

31:42

have to learn about it only

31:44

after we had our own. that

31:46

it was something that we could

31:49

talk about as if we were

31:51

talking about what we were going

31:53

to have for dinner that night.

31:56

So just to integrate it because

31:58

it's a normative outcome of pregnancy.

32:00

And so why is this something

32:02

we're not talking about? So

32:04

two weeks after my first

32:07

book came out, I was

32:09

diagnosed with breast cancer.

32:12

And it took, you know,

32:14

I took some time to

32:16

really, of course, process, how

32:18

intense, how scary, my kids

32:20

were young, brought up a lot

32:23

of concern and fear

32:25

for me. Would they be

32:27

motherless? Would I lose my

32:29

life? this happened to me, you

32:31

know, just all of the concerns.

32:33

And I decided to be open

32:36

about it on Instagram because

32:38

I felt like, especially at

32:40

that time, I felt like

32:43

my community was so invested

32:45

in my miscarriage content that

32:48

I felt like I can't just

32:50

kind of now abandon them

32:52

and not say anything and

32:54

I wanted to invite them

32:56

into this next. trauma

32:58

of my life. And so what's

33:01

interesting though

33:03

is I do include

33:05

breast cancer in normalize

33:07

it. And I try to be

33:09

as vulnerable as I can

33:12

in terms of deciding I

33:14

have myself in the book sitting

33:17

with a patient who's

33:19

been diagnosed and she's

33:21

gone through surgery and

33:24

she's talking about all

33:26

of her body shame. and her

33:28

fear of sexual intimacy

33:31

with her partner because of

33:33

it, all of the

33:35

psychological elements of breast

33:38

cancer that she was

33:40

navigating. And so

33:42

I write in the book

33:44

a bit about my experience

33:46

and how I decide though

33:48

in that moment not to

33:50

share with this patient.

33:52

And because as you know, as

33:54

a therapist, sometimes us sharing can

33:57

be incredibly productive and so helpful

33:59

in healing. And other times, especially

34:01

in this case, my concern was that

34:03

she would be then worried about my

34:05

mortality and my process and which surgeries

34:08

I had and which radiation or did

34:10

I have key enough? Like I did

34:12

not want her to have to be

34:14

thinking about me instead of herself. Right.

34:17

I feel like with the vulnerability piece

34:19

and therapeutically, it's funny. I had a

34:21

teacher at NYU when I was getting

34:23

my masters. to become a therapist, because

34:25

I was always on the fence about

34:28

what or when would I ever divulge

34:30

anything about myself therapeutically, and I asked

34:32

this teacher who I really respected, and

34:34

I said, what would you tell a

34:37

client? He said, honestly, I would tell

34:39

them anything that I truly believed might

34:41

help them heal. And I was like,

34:43

I think that's a good way to

34:45

go. I think that's a good barometer.

34:48

Not all therapists feel that way though.

34:50

Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

34:52

It depends on your school of thought.

34:54

And I think that you, you know,

34:56

the mindfulness, as you said, sometimes we

34:59

don't make the decision because we want

35:01

to make sure we're not co-opting their

35:03

treatment and you know your clients rely

35:05

on you and they care about you

35:08

and they worry about you. I don't

35:10

want to need anything for my clients.

35:12

Like, you know, we've all got our

35:14

way of relating. Right. But it can

35:16

be very powerful as you know. I

35:19

want to ask you a question that

35:21

I ask people at the end of

35:23

the interview because I'm still obsessed with

35:25

boundaries. I just can't stop. So personally,

35:27

what has been your most challenging boundary

35:30

struggle and how did you overcome it

35:32

if you have? Wait, I need some

35:34

time. Well, what comes to mind are

35:36

that we're talking about. It's like the

35:39

miscarriage and breast cancer and I think

35:41

that... what we didn't get a chance

35:43

to talk about is all the platitudes

35:45

that often rush in or a trauma

35:47

like these. And I guess. I still

35:50

sort of wrestle with, like, did I

35:52

have strong enough boundaries in certain situations

35:54

with people who said things to me

35:56

that felt so off-putting and almost cruel?

35:59

I knew they were well-intentioned. These are

36:01

wonderful loving people in my life, but

36:03

nevertheless, what they said, the way they

36:05

said it, when they said it, the

36:07

timing of it, it just landed in

36:10

a painful way. So I think I

36:12

could do better at saying more clearly

36:14

in a moment. But again, I mean,

36:16

I think when you're going though through

36:18

trauma, it's like very hard to find

36:21

more words to explain what you're going

36:23

through and how people should be caring

36:25

for you. But even in the aftermath,

36:27

I could circle back and say when

36:30

you said this. Yeah. it didn't feel

36:32

great. I don't want to be called

36:34

a warrior. I don't want to be

36:36

at war with my body. I don't

36:38

want to be seen as if I

36:41

somehow don't survive this that I didn't

36:43

fight hard enough. You know, all of

36:45

this battle language surrounding residents is a

36:47

real problem for me. So yeah, I

36:49

feel like in my writing, I'm a

36:52

bit sort of more brave when it

36:54

comes to boundaries and trying to help

36:56

other people know how to treat other

36:58

people. But then in a moment when

37:01

it happens for me directly it can

37:03

be a bit more challenging. Oh, so

37:05

get it. You guys, the book is

37:07

called Normalize it, Upending the Silent Stigma

37:09

in Shame that Shape Women's Lives. The

37:12

author is Dr. Jessica Zucker. It is

37:14

out. It just came out two days

37:16

ago. Go get it where all books,

37:18

any fine books are sold, you can

37:20

get this book. And Dr. Jessica Zucker,

37:23

where can people find you? I am

37:25

on Instagram at I had a miscarriage,

37:27

and my website is Dr. Jessica Zucker.com.

37:29

Right now, We'll put

37:32

all of that in

37:34

the show notes.

37:36

Thank you so much

37:38

for being with

37:40

us today. I appreciate

37:43

you being work. us

37:45

you so much for

37:47

having me. your work. Thank

37:49

you so much for having me. Hey,

37:52

if you like this episode or you're

37:54

a fan the you like

37:56

this episode or

37:58

you're a fan of

38:00

the show you

38:03

want more, please follow

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me on social

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media, sign up for

38:09

my out my note,

38:11

or check out my

38:14

website for all

38:16

the news at at

38:18

at terrycolle .com. you Thank

38:20

you so much

38:23

for listening. I hope

38:25

you have an amazing

38:27

week week. And always,

38:29

take care of you.

38:31

of you.