0:00

Welcome back to the podcast everyone.

0:02

My name is Alex. I'm a

0:04

consultant psychiatrist. Today I'm very happy

0:06

to be here with Dr. Alex Mayburn,

0:09

a specialty doctor in psychiatry. He's completed

0:11

his first three years of psychiatric

0:13

training and he's been doing a lot

0:16

of behind-the-scenes work. Help me

0:18

else organize different interviews. So a

0:20

lot of the recent interviews have

0:22

done what I've been organized very

0:24

graciously with Alex's help. Today we're

0:26

going to be doing something fun.

0:28

Anya recently put out an episode

0:31

about neuroscience with Dr. Kimila Nord

0:33

and when I listened to it I was

0:35

jealous because she was doing it in person

0:37

and I haven't done an in-person

0:39

podcast in a while so I thought to take

0:41

the opportunity we've set up, I'll

0:43

do the studio here and we're going

0:45

to be answering questions all about some

0:48

of the fundamentals of self-development

0:50

and psychology stuff that's quite close

0:52

to my heart and stuff that... I think

0:54

can be quite helpful even in the

0:57

psychotherapy world and the psychiatry world. So

0:59

Alex, thank you very much for joining

1:01

me today. Thanks for having me. I

1:03

have to say I'm quite excited. Hearing

1:05

you do that introduction, just

1:07

sort of bringing back to listening the

1:10

podcast, so it's nice to actually be

1:12

here in person. Excellent. So what questions

1:14

do you have for us today, Alex?

1:16

Well, where to start. Perhaps that is

1:18

a nice segue into where to start.

1:21

So I'll explain that essentially. I want

1:23

to talk a little bit

1:25

about some of the common

1:27

difficulties I've been experiencing just

1:29

in life and as a

1:31

psychiatry training. And my hope is

1:33

that these difficulties will be

1:35

sort of relatable to our

1:37

listeners. So when I say

1:40

where to start, I think that

1:42

really is the problem. I often

1:44

find myself thinking where do I

1:46

start. I'm finding myself overwhelmed a

1:48

lot of the time. By that I guess

1:51

what I'm trying to say is you know,

1:53

I'm a busy doctor I work busy shifts

1:55

But then outside of being a doctor

1:57

I have to worry about my

1:59

portfolio my There's a lot of

2:01

extracurricular stuff that I have to

2:03

find the time to do on

2:05

top of everyday life. Everyone has

2:07

to do. And I find myself

2:09

with very precious little time. And

2:11

then when I have that time,

2:14

I'm sort of stuck. I'm sort

2:16

of going, what should I do?

2:18

How do I use this time?

2:20

I guess my first question to

2:22

you is, do you find that

2:24

that's a common sort of feeling

2:26

for people in the modern day

2:28

world, feeling overwhelmed with how they

2:30

use their spare time? Yeah, I

2:32

think so. We're in a very

2:34

specific time, and I think I've

2:36

released a few episodes about this

2:38

recently, about understanding the nuances of

2:40

the time you're living in. And

2:43

I think nowadays, especially in the

2:45

West, we're in a time of

2:47

intense careerism. I think for many

2:49

people we do actually have more

2:51

possibilities. than we've ever had before.

2:54

But I think the danger with

2:56

that is we've kind of slept

2:58

walked our way into a scenario

3:00

where we're... there's this constant drive

3:02

to achieve as much as we

3:04

can without actually thinking about what

3:07

our goals are, what we want.

3:09

I think one thing that's really

3:11

lacking in the modern context is

3:13

people have stopped thinking about their

3:15

values. There isn't a sense of

3:18

stepping back. and all the things,

3:20

what do I actually care about?

3:22

As a first step towards how

3:24

do I actually want to live

3:26

my life, I think when religions

3:28

and other sort of spiritual institutions

3:31

were more dominant, there was more

3:33

of an emphasis on reflection on

3:35

where you might actually want your

3:37

life to go. And nowadays, I

3:39

worry that that's lacking and instead

3:42

we kind of seek... automatically we

3:44

go into these defaults of the

3:46

thing I want to be famous

3:48

I want to make a lot

3:50

of money I want to generate

3:52

a sense of achievement, but often

3:55

it's lacking in any kind of

3:57

introspective grounding. So if someone comes

3:59

to me with a predicament like

4:01

yours, you know, I'm not really

4:03

sure what to do, I'm kind

4:06

of overwhelmed, it sounds like you've

4:08

already achieved a lot and you're

4:10

pursuing a lot, certainly more than

4:12

the average person, but you feel

4:14

kind of overwhelmed and you're not

4:16

sure what to do with your

4:19

time. The first step. And this

4:21

would be the first step in

4:23

any kind of self-development journey is

4:25

to audit. That's to say, like,

4:27

how am I using my time?

4:30

And what of the behaviors I'm

4:32

doing is giving me benefit versus

4:34

what's taking from me? And what

4:36

might I actually want my life

4:38

to look like? How do I

4:40

want to spend my time? What

4:43

are the things that give me

4:45

energy versus what are the things

4:47

that take energy from me? What

4:49

are the things which are actually

4:51

wasting my time? What are the

4:54

things, what are the ways I'm

4:56

solving problems that are actually counterproductive

4:58

that might feel good on the

5:00

front end, but actually on the

5:02

back end, is taking things away

5:04

from me? So I think that

5:07

the first step is getting a

5:09

clear understanding of how you're spending

5:11

your time, the ways in which

5:13

it's benefiting you and the ways

5:15

in which it's not, and then

5:18

that leads to... useful information that

5:20

someone can use to be to

5:22

like more consciously more intentionally designed

5:24

their lives if you like I

5:26

appreciate that what you're saying I

5:29

guess for me the question that

5:31

brings me on to is there

5:33

seems to be there must be

5:35

a sort of an ideal or

5:37

I say ideal a a good

5:39

sort of ratio of doing I

5:42

don't know things that are sort

5:44

of life admin things are that

5:46

are productive towards growth, things that

5:48

are for fun. How do I,

5:50

how do people go about working

5:53

out what's the right balance for

5:55

them? Is it simply a case

5:57

of auditing and cutting out? for

5:59

things that aren't good for them?

6:01

Or is there something else that

6:03

they need to think about? Do

6:06

they need to think about, okay,

6:08

am I spending enough time enjoying

6:10

myself? Am I spending enough time

6:12

progressing? How would you sort of

6:14

approach that question? It's a very

6:17

individual question and I thought someone,

6:19

it's not an answer anyone can

6:21

really give you. I would say

6:23

it's a process of ongoing experimentation.

6:25

but also a process of becoming

6:27

more and more self-aware and familiar

6:30

with yourself. More in touch with

6:32

your feelings about all of these

6:34

things. Because I think one of

6:36

the things that's wrapped up in

6:38

your question is the fact that

6:41

we have all sorts of competing

6:43

needs as you've outlined. So we

6:45

want to grow, we want to

6:47

feel satisfied, sometimes we just want

6:49

to have fun, but we also

6:51

need to make money. We also

6:54

need to have good relationships. We

6:56

also need to send that email

6:58

that we need to send on

7:00

Tuesday. So that's really what makes

7:02

life so complicated is that we

7:05

have these competing needs and those

7:07

competing needs are also played out

7:09

across time, short term, medium term,

7:11

long term and what might be

7:13

like often what's considered a mistake

7:15

or a waste of time is

7:18

something that feels good in the

7:20

very short term but is bad

7:22

in the medium term and the

7:24

long term. I don't think there's

7:26

a magic ratio particularly. One of

7:29

the things people think about a

7:31

lot in humanistic psychology and humanistic

7:33

therapy, which I really appreciate, is

7:35

you have to, as I said

7:37

earlier, get in touch with your

7:40

feelings about these things. You have

7:42

to learn to develop that sense

7:44

of fascination, like when am I

7:46

fascinated, but also that sense of

7:48

burn out and overwhelm, when am

7:50

I too afraid? Or when am

7:53

I just correctly afraid in that

7:55

sweet spot of fear that will

7:57

get you out of your comfort

7:59

zone? What I'm saying

8:01

is we have all sorts of

8:03

emotions that evolution has given us

8:06

over hundreds of thousands of years

8:08

and we need to tap into

8:10

those emotions and Because they can

8:12

give us a clear sense of

8:14

what to where to go and

8:16

what parts to go down Rather

8:18

than relying on a more top-down.

8:20

Okay. This is the magic ratio

8:22

someone told me I needed to

8:25

to reach So for example taking

8:27

burnout It's good to develop a

8:29

clear sense of where when do

8:31

I feel overwhelmed where do I

8:33

feel that in my body, how

8:35

do I know how much is

8:37

too much? And then countering that,

8:39

how do I know when I

8:41

feel replenished, what things actually give

8:43

me that feeling of replenishment, how

8:46

much sleep do I need to

8:48

feel replenished? So I think a

8:50

continuous process of experimentation, but then

8:52

also getting in touch with your

8:54

senses and your perceptions, that I

8:56

think one of the dangers again

8:58

of... of modern context is we

9:00

think we're like in a time

9:02

of hyper rationality where we feel

9:05

everything can be worked out beforehand

9:07

and we've almost started to distrust

9:09

our immediate perceptions of self and

9:11

others and I think that's a

9:13

huge mistake as I alluded to

9:15

earlier I think we have all

9:17

these emotional systems for a reason

9:19

and they they're not perfect and

9:21

the more you use them the

9:24

more I believe finally calibrated they

9:26

become so for example your sense

9:28

of overwhelm can become finally calibrated

9:30

as you get in touch with

9:32

it over time but we need

9:34

to use these systems and it's

9:36

not something you can just think

9:38

irrationally about and work out with

9:40

a spreadsheet you know something like

9:42

that. I'm interested that you said

9:45

bodily sensations being attuned to them

9:47

what can our bodily sensations tell

9:49

us about you know how we

9:51

can sort of attune to a

9:53

tune to more fun or more

9:55

more progression. Our bodies test everything

9:57

and our... tell us everything and

9:59

so do our thoughts. I also

10:01

think paying attention to your thoughts

10:04

is a good idea. But one

10:06

of the things you do in,

10:08

one of the reasons someone might

10:10

come to therapy is because they're

10:12

kind of cut off from the

10:14

neck down. So they're not actually

10:16

finally attuned to their emotions. So

10:18

a really common intervention in psychotherapy,

10:20

someone might say, I feel depressed.

10:22

The therapist might say, what does

10:25

it feel like for you to

10:27

be depressed? How do you know

10:29

that you are depressed? And they

10:31

might say, well, I feel this

10:33

kind of sinking feeling in my

10:35

abdomen, for instance, or I feel

10:37

the sinking feeling in my chest,

10:39

or I know I feel anxious

10:41

because my heart is beating fast,

10:44

or because I'm sweating, or because

10:46

my legs start shaking. Our bodies

10:48

are giving us all sorts of

10:50

clues as to what we're feeling

10:52

and what we might need in

10:54

a given moment. But again, many

10:56

people aren't attuned to that. There's

10:58

lots of reasons why that might

11:00

be the case. Learning to become

11:03

more attuned can mean as you

11:05

go through life, you can start

11:07

to sense what's impinging on you,

11:09

what do you need, what do

11:11

you desire, and then you can

11:13

therefore more reflexively make moves to

11:15

get what you want or importantly

11:17

to protect yourself against what you

11:19

don't want. So for example, that's

11:21

a big feature of... A big

11:24

feature of Gestalt psychotherapy, which is

11:26

a humanistic therapy, is like being

11:28

able to spontaneously reflexively get what

11:30

you like behave in a way

11:32

that's an appropriate response to the

11:34

situation. Someone impinges on your rights,

11:36

you get angry with them and

11:38

stop them, for instance. You see

11:40

something you want and you feel

11:43

you can go and ask for

11:45

what you want without having an

11:47

emotional block towards that. So that's

11:49

the kind of thing I mean

11:51

I think your body can tell

11:53

you all sorts of valuable information

11:55

and paying attention to it is

11:57

the first step then towards learning

11:59

to respond reflexively to it. How

12:02

important is... is finding time or

12:04

leaving time to have fun. Do

12:06

you think fun is important? Well,

12:08

I can tell you that if

12:10

I have a weekend after a

12:12

long day at work, a long

12:14

week at work, where I'm super

12:16

productive, I get all of my

12:18

admin done, I get some portfolio

12:20

stuff done, and that's all I

12:23

leave time for. I come back

12:25

to work on Monday feeling exhausted.

12:27

quite negative about the start of

12:30

the week. I feel quite differently

12:32

if I've had a weekend full

12:34

of fun, doing fun activities. Perhaps

12:36

it's a little bit too far

12:38

in that in that favour sometimes.

12:41

I could quite happily just have

12:43

fun because the working week is

12:45

so busy. So I guess I've

12:47

answered my own question. Fun is

12:49

a mammalian thing. Actually play, if

12:52

you like, it's a very mammalian

12:54

thing. It's a very mammalian thing.

12:56

It's a very mammalian thing. It's

12:58

kind of observed. in some other

13:01

animals as well, but the general

13:03

idea is that they don't have

13:05

neurological structures complex enough to do

13:07

things like play and have fun.

13:09

Play is fascinating. We don't think

13:12

of players sophisticated, but play is

13:14

very sophisticated because it is a

13:16

way of trying out, simulating different

13:18

actions that might be very important

13:20

before we need them in the

13:23

real world. So for example, lines,

13:25

play, fight. and wolves play fight

13:27

and that's one of the ways

13:29

that Manders learn how to use

13:31

their body where their body ends

13:34

and the body of another individual

13:36

begins. Of course children play fight

13:38

and it's it's actually very important.

13:40

Playing is like it's like a

13:43

physical brainstorming and that's why it's

13:45

not you know of course fun

13:47

and play. hugely increase your quality

13:49

of life. So that kind of

13:51

goes out saying there's the quality

13:54

of life aspect if you have

13:56

a life that has no fun

13:58

or no sense of. Play, chances

14:00

are it's not going to really

14:02

be a life worth living. But

14:05

on the productivity side of things,

14:07

Play is immensely useful at brainstorming

14:09

and getting through creative blocks because

14:11

Play invites the possibility of doing

14:13

something new and it lowers the

14:16

risk of making a mistake. If

14:18

one dog play fights another and

14:20

the dog doesn't do so well

14:22

in that fight, makes a mistake,

14:25

it's such a big deal. It's

14:27

not as big a deal as

14:29

if it made a mistake in

14:31

a real fight. And similarly, if

14:33

you're having a play fight with

14:36

your partner or your spouse, that

14:38

can be really valuable. And that's

14:40

a way of each partner in

14:42

the relationship testing each other's limits,

14:44

so that when they have a

14:47

real fight, they have a greater

14:49

sense of how to do that

14:51

and where the boundaries are. So

14:53

play has all sorts of functions.

14:55

It's going to improve. and deepen

14:58

our social relationships it's going to

15:00

relieve stress as you've said even

15:02

the fact that it's just taking

15:04

up time where you're not doing

15:07

lots of cognitively heavy work obviously

15:09

it's going to cool the jets

15:11

a little bit so that when

15:13

you get back to work that's

15:15

going to be easier but because

15:18

play allows us to put us

15:20

in that safe place where we

15:22

feel we can take risks then

15:24

we can come up with something

15:26

new so for example recording a

15:29

podcast is a kind of a

15:31

kind of a play because this

15:33

is a conversation which doesn't have

15:35

super high stakes or high consequences.

15:37

We're not talking to clients or

15:40

patients. And we're speaking off the

15:42

cuff, which means we're going to

15:44

stray into territory, which we didn't

15:46

necessarily plan on straying. And psychoanatically,

15:49

you could think we're even tapping

15:51

into our unconscious, which I kind

15:53

of believe you are in a

15:55

good conversation. So you're discovering something

15:57

new. So I think fun and

16:00

play important for all those things.

16:02

The mistake people might make is

16:04

they make fun, they're North Star.

16:06

And another word for that is

16:08

hedonism. And I think that's a

16:11

problem because I think fun is

16:13

really important. I think if fun

16:15

becomes your North Star, it quickly

16:17

becomes quite meaningless for people very

16:19

often and it comes with a

16:22

sense of nihilism. I think to

16:24

some extent it depends on your

16:26

personality makeup. Some people are more

16:28

inter-fun than other people. I think

16:31

it's important for everyone, but I

16:33

think for no one should it

16:35

be the North Star, because I

16:37

think fundamentally we evolved to deal

16:39

with difficult challenges to form close

16:42

bonds with each other to overcome

16:44

those challenges and to have fun

16:46

along the way. So that's roughly

16:48

where I put fun. That's how

16:50

I think about it in the

16:53

sort of overall landscape of things.

16:55

It's nice to hear a sort

16:57

of an evolutionary and biological sort

16:59

of underpinning for fun. I've never

17:01

really thought of it that way.

17:04

Yeah, we've made a lot of

17:06

podcasts about evolutionary psychology and I

17:08

think it's really helpful for people

17:10

because it actually depathologizes a lot

17:13

of our behaviors and our mental

17:15

attitudes and our emotions. So you

17:17

take something like jealousy, jealousy, for

17:19

example. jealousy is the kind of

17:21

thing no one wants to admit

17:24

to. No one wants to admit

17:26

that they're having these feelings of

17:28

jealousy or envy, but once you

17:30

understand there's a clear evolutionary rationale

17:32

to why we might have those

17:35

feelings like a really good rationale,

17:37

then you can come to understand

17:39

them and accept them and ultimately

17:41

the important thing is to not

17:43

necessarily give in to all of

17:46

our emotions. but to understand that

17:48

we have them to accept them

17:50

and that can help us move

17:52

past them and perhaps make better

17:54

decisions. Alex, I find myself, even

17:57

when I do have the best

17:59

intentions and I've... I think I've

18:01

been in tune to my body

18:03

and I've got my ratios kind

18:06

of worked out. I find myself

18:08

frequently procrastinating, particularly when I've got

18:10

a big task to do. I

18:12

wondered if you could speak to

18:14

a little bit about the psychology

18:17

behind why we procrastinate. Procrastination is

18:19

often like in the introductory stages

18:21

of self-development, sometimes in psychotherapy as

18:23

well. I think it's an interesting

18:25

one. Ultimately, like many things, procrastination

18:28

is a behavior. So it's an

18:30

outcome. And as we know, in

18:32

mental health, there can be many

18:34

different roots to the same outcome.

18:36

So for example, depression is an

18:39

outcome, or anxiety is an outcome.

18:41

One person might be feeling anxious

18:43

because they drink 10 cups of

18:45

coffee. Another person might be anxious

18:48

because they haven't slept enough. Maybe

18:50

they've eaten too much sugar. Perhaps

18:52

they had some difficult traumatic experiences,

18:54

which means when they go into

18:56

experiences which resemble the trauma they

18:59

end up feeling anxious. So what

19:01

I'm saying is procrastination, like anything

19:03

else, is going to be based

19:05

on all sorts of factors. If

19:07

you're working with procrastination, you might

19:10

want to be thinking, sure, on

19:12

the more... quote superficial and I

19:14

don't mean superficial in a derogatory

19:16

sense but on the more superficial

19:18

end of things what are the

19:21

behaviors that person could be doing

19:23

to lessen the likelihood of procrastination

19:25

and that could be simple things

19:27

like making sure there aren't distractions

19:30

setting aside enough time making sure

19:32

you're having enough fun so that

19:34

when you come to do the

19:36

thing you have to do you're

19:38

you're mentally ready to do it

19:41

and you have the environment that's

19:43

been set up appropriately but I

19:45

think for any one individual who's

19:47

procrastinating, there's going to be deeper

19:49

reasons. There's going to be deeper

19:52

reasons why they might be doing

19:54

that. And so again, a self-ordered.

19:56

a self-understanding of what might be

19:58

the reasons for them. Now there

20:00

are obviously common reasons. People procrastinate.

20:03

One might be a fear of

20:05

failure, for instance. One might be

20:07

a fear of judgment of other

20:09

people. Another might be setting your

20:12

sights too high. Say you want

20:14

to learn how to play the

20:16

piano and you think I'm going

20:18

to be playing Chopin in three

20:20

days. Well obviously you're not going

20:23

to be playing Chopin in three

20:25

days. using this podcast as a

20:27

very like hampering and they often

20:29

had been subdued by either a

20:31

fear of failure a fear of

20:34

judgment of other people or set

20:36

my sights too high too quickly

20:38

I wouldn't have been able to

20:40

do any of the things that

20:42

I could do including this podcast

20:45

those things are very like hampering

20:47

and they often create quite powerful

20:49

internal blocks for people. So, taking

20:51

them one as time, fear of

20:54

failure, it's very important to become,

20:56

like, self-development 101 for me is

20:58

comfort with failure and rejection. So,

21:00

comfort with the idea that the

21:02

vast majority of the time, the

21:05

thing you're planning on doing isn't

21:07

going to work out the way

21:09

you wanted, and that's fine, but

21:11

also other people might think less

21:13

of you, and other people might

21:16

judge you, and this... These are

21:18

just necessary stepping stones along the

21:20

way. I mean I think the

21:22

fear of judgment is a big

21:24

one because that's truly a hangover

21:27

of our evolutionary past when we

21:29

did exist in tribes of 100,

21:31

150 people and your reputation really

21:33

followed you throughout life and what

21:36

people thought of you really did

21:38

matter. We still have those instincts

21:40

but now obviously we have the

21:42

freedom, we have freedom from reputation

21:44

in a lot of ways because

21:47

we can move and... what our

21:49

close family thinks of us isn't

21:51

necessarily that important and yet people

21:53

are still really... hampered by this

21:55

fear of judgment. And similarly, with

21:58

the fear of failure, I think

22:00

the less you fail, the more

22:02

intolerant you are of failure and

22:04

the more it hurts. And it

22:06

feels like a really big deal.

22:09

I tried to play this piano

22:11

piece and it didn't quite work

22:13

out for me and then it

22:15

directly impacts my surface steam. So

22:18

I think something that's really important

22:20

is understanding failure is a part

22:22

of the process and almost detaching.

22:24

the results you get the quality

22:26

of the work you produce from

22:29

your ego on your self-esteem. So

22:31

it would be hard to do

22:33

a podcast if you felt you're

22:35

only as good as your last

22:37

podcast, especially if you're just starting

22:40

out. Whereas personally when I started

22:42

out and started making podcasts, I

22:44

became comfortable with the idea that

22:46

I was making things which were

22:48

flawed. and by no means perfect

22:51

and in many ways still making

22:53

things which are flawed and by

22:55

no means perfect but that means

22:57

you can actually do it and

23:00

you can make it and you

23:02

can put it out and then

23:04

you can get real feedback from

23:06

the world and then ultimately it's

23:08

the feedback that's going to help

23:11

you shape whatever it is you're

23:13

doing into a better product or

23:15

a better service or a better

23:17

set of skills that's why failure

23:19

is so important it's not some

23:22

sort of sense of... you have

23:24

to be the stoic perfect person

23:26

and nothing bothers you. It's more

23:28

that failure is the evolutionary pressure

23:30

which sculpts things into quality. And

23:33

I think you can apply that

23:35

to everything. So I don't know

23:37

if that's why you procrastinate necessarily,

23:39

but I think fear of failure,

23:42

fear of judgment and setting the

23:44

bar to high are very big

23:46

reasons. And it's really worth understanding

23:48

that. Any activity worth pursuing is

23:50

built on repetition and iterations if

23:53

you want. to learn to play

23:55

the piano, it's not about learning

23:57

a song, it's about learning a

23:59

thousand songs. I'm being a different

24:01

person on the other end of

24:04

that or making a hundred podcasts

24:06

and being another different person on

24:08

the other end of that. It's

24:10

not about any one podcast or

24:12

any one unit of production, it's

24:15

about the process, about the repetition.

24:17

So one of the first pieces

24:19

of advice I tend to give

24:21

people if they are procrastinating is

24:24

lower the activation energy. lower the

24:26

threshold for success. So, if you

24:28

want to start a podcast, maybe

24:30

don't start out with trying to

24:32

do an hour-long interview with your

24:35

dream guest, maybe try talking into

24:37

a microphone for five minutes, and

24:39

maybe don't even release it, and

24:41

let yourself feel successful, even if

24:43

you achieve that really low bar,

24:46

allow yourself to say, well, Yesterday

24:48

I didn't record a five minute

24:50

podcast. I've never done a podcast

24:52

before yesterday. Today I made a

24:54

five minute podcast. Some 1% maybe

24:57

0.1% closer to my goal. And

24:59

then all of a sudden you

25:01

have like a beachhead. You have

25:03

something that you can start to

25:06

build on. So I think taking

25:08

that view starts super small and

25:10

then small consistent over time will

25:12

always win. So I don't know

25:14

if that addresses any of the

25:17

reasons you procrastinate. Hopefully hopefully it

25:19

does. I think if anything it's

25:21

giving me many more questions, Alice.

25:23

I was wondering if perhaps as

25:25

well the type of thing that

25:28

you do when you procrastinate is

25:30

might be indicative of why you're

25:32

procrastinating. So I frequently find myself

25:34

scrolling on YouTube when I'm when

25:36

I've got something that I need

25:39

to do or when I'm just

25:41

generally not feeling 100%. I wonder

25:43

if that might be a sign

25:45

of perhaps the reasons. or if

25:48

you couldn't really generalize it like

25:50

that. What do you think the

25:52

fact that you go to scrolling,

25:54

what do you think that says

25:56

about the reasons for your procrastination?

25:59

Personally, I think, because I find

26:01

myself doing it when I'm tired,

26:03

maybe when I'm a bit pissed

26:05

off, when I maybe just having

26:07

lower energy, lower cognitive capacity. So

26:10

I want something easy to do.

26:12

And I think it's just... I

26:14

mean, my take is always been

26:16

that it's just a quick fix

26:18

of something easy to do. And

26:21

it's basically a bit, it's sort

26:23

of indicative of what I'm capable

26:25

of at that time. Although I

26:27

don't think that's always true because

26:30

if I really just took the

26:32

time to, you know, actually pick

26:34

up the book that I could

26:36

be reading instead or the game

26:38

that I want to play or

26:41

the film that I want to

26:43

watch, you know, all of those

26:45

things are, you know, now I

26:47

guess I'm talking about sort of

26:49

choosing to do something that would

26:52

be otherwise refreshing or replenishing. And

26:54

even that I can't choose one

26:56

of those ones that I know

26:58

would give me back the good

27:00

sort of the reward and make

27:03

me feel topped up. Instead I

27:05

go for the quick instant, you

27:07

know, and I'm saying it now

27:09

knowing that that's why I'm going

27:12

for that quick instant sort of

27:14

fix. I mean, does that resonate

27:16

with you? Do you think you

27:18

see a lot of people doing

27:20

that kind of thing? I talked

27:23

about... auditing time earlier. When you

27:25

do that, the real low-hanging fruit,

27:27

so the way to get a

27:29

lot of time back, is to,

27:31

I think, cut out exactly the

27:34

kinds of activities, that kind of

27:36

time that you're talking about. So

27:38

I call that the gray area

27:40

between fun and work. Now obviously

27:42

your work can be fun, and

27:45

you can have fun working. I

27:47

understand that, but... Roughly speaking, you

27:49

have things in your life which

27:51

are productive, which are accomplishing your...

27:54

and you have things in your

27:56

life which you enjoy which are

27:58

replenishing you in some way. A

28:00

huge problem again in modernity I

28:02

think is we have so many

28:05

things available to us which don't

28:07

exactly make us feel good happy

28:09

or relaxed but it's just so

28:11

easy so damn easy to give

28:13

your attention to them. And this

28:16

is things like scrolling and instant

28:18

messaging and dating apps and online

28:20

gambling and pornography and video games,

28:22

there are things that often have

28:24

been intentionally designed to be as

28:27

attention-grabbing and hooking as possible, but

28:29

then after you've done them for

28:31

a while, after you've spent any

28:33

amount of time doing them, it

28:35

feels kind of depleting, it feels

28:38

empty, and I usually draw the

28:40

analogy with food, like you have

28:42

food that is generally repenishing. It

28:44

may not give you like a

28:47

high when you eat it, but

28:49

it's generally repenishing and it's enjoyable

28:51

to eat and it tastes good

28:53

and then you have junk food

28:55

which if you abstain from junk

28:58

food for any length of time

29:00

and then you have some junk

29:02

food you realize how artificial it

29:04

is because it almost feels like

29:06

a high that you're getting. It

29:09

feels very artificial and I think

29:11

these technologies are like that. There

29:13

have been good books written about

29:15

this like dopamine nation. by Ananke

29:17

who we had on the podcast

29:20

about a year ago and there's

29:22

this idea of dopamine balance. The

29:24

things that cause dopamine to be

29:26

released very quickly, very easily are

29:29

often these technologies which are very

29:31

distracting which hook us but ultimately

29:33

deplete us. And what we need

29:35

to look for and as much

29:37

as possible to condition ourselves towards

29:40

is more slow burn releases of

29:42

dopamine like watching a great movie,

29:44

reading a great book, even playing

29:46

a great video game. if it's

29:48

something that genuinely gives you a

29:51

sense of satisfaction from it. But

29:53

that goes back to what I

29:55

was talking about earlier, you have

29:57

to cultivate that sense of, you

29:59

have to get in touch with

30:02

your body to know when you

30:04

are feeling fulfilled, satisfied, replenished, versus

30:06

when you are feeling depleted, empty,

30:08

more like agitated. We don't pay

30:11

attention though signals will never know.

30:13

which zone we're in but roughly

30:15

speaking I think that dead zone

30:17

that gray area where you're just

30:19

kind of mindlessly scrolling like you

30:22

could take a nap in that

30:24

time and you would actually if

30:26

you spent half an hour taking

30:28

a nap you'd feel quite replenished

30:30

and then as long as you're

30:33

mindful about what the things you're

30:35

doing are accomplishing for you I

30:37

think that that goes a long

30:39

way to help and can get

30:41

rid of that gray zone. Something

30:44

I wanted to ask you about

30:46

or something that bothers me a

30:48

lot is that I've been sort

30:50

of told and I'd heard throughout

30:53

my life and as a doctor

30:55

in particular that it's okay to

30:57

make mistakes as long as you

30:59

learn from your mistakes. You know,

31:01

the idea that you, if some

31:04

failure is good and you've talked

31:06

about this plenty before, I guess

31:08

what I often find myself doing

31:10

is making the same mistakes over

31:12

and over again. And I can't

31:15

get my head around why I

31:17

do that. So a lot of

31:19

what we've spoken about, for example,

31:21

my use of YouTube, I'm aware

31:23

of, you know, it's not brand

31:26

new to me, yet I still

31:28

find myself making these mistakes again.

31:30

I know that this is a

31:32

great time as you call it,

31:35

and that I could be using

31:37

it better and I could, and

31:39

this isn't going to replenish me.

31:41

And on a similar note, or

31:43

on the flip side, there are

31:46

things that I know that I

31:48

know that I know that I

31:50

know that I know that... are

31:52

really good for me, that I've

31:54

really benefited me over the years.

31:57

So one thing in particular, meditation

31:59

for example, sort of dabble with

32:01

meditation. particularly find the headspace app

32:03

useful if people are familiar with

32:05

that guided meditation I find that

32:08

really helpful but I only seem

32:10

to be able to maintain it

32:12

for a short while and even

32:14

though I know it has benefits

32:17

for my concentration for my overall

32:19

levels of anxiety and well-being I

32:21

can't keep that behavior going and

32:23

as soon as I, you know,

32:25

it just drops off. Why do

32:28

I make the same mistakes all

32:30

the time? Am I, am I,

32:32

you know, a hopeless cause? This

32:34

is a very common problem. I

32:36

think the first thing to understand

32:39

is that we are habit-forming creatures.

32:41

Most of the behaviors we do

32:43

every day are automatic behaviors. There

32:45

are not things that we consciously

32:47

decide to do. So giving your

32:50

YouTube example... I don't think you

32:52

really make, you could correct me

32:54

if I'm wrong, but I don't

32:56

think you make the correct, the

32:59

conscious decision to go on YouTube.

33:01

It's more that you find yourself

33:03

on YouTube. Often, yes. Yeah. So

33:05

we have most of our behaviors

33:07

are automatic. So the question is,

33:10

how do you slowly, overtime, begin

33:12

to influence what your automatic behaviors

33:14

are? But before we get to

33:16

that. It's also important to understand

33:18

the nature of a mistake exactly.

33:21

I mean, it does relate to

33:23

something we've talked about before. Our

33:25

mistakes largely aren't super senseless. A

33:27

lot of the things we do,

33:29

which we classify as mistakes, are

33:32

giving us some mix of benefits

33:34

and downsides, and we usually come

33:36

to the conclusion that it's a

33:38

mistake because it's a net negative.

33:41

But if we had to look

33:43

at it honestly, we'd see that's

33:45

actually a mix of upside and

33:47

downside. So for example, if someone

33:49

with alcohol problems is seeing me

33:52

and they want to stop drinking

33:54

alcohol, One of the first things

33:56

that I might get into do,

33:58

and this is about a bit

34:00

counterintuitive, is ask them what are

34:03

actually the things that alcohol does

34:05

for you. How does alcohol help

34:07

you? Because that's the first step

34:09

to understanding what that person needs

34:11

to replace alcohol with in their

34:14

life. So someone might say, well,

34:16

I drink because actually it helps

34:18

me with my negative emotions, or

34:20

it helps me get to sleep,

34:23

or it helps me socialize more

34:25

easily, or it helps me deal

34:27

with some trauma from the past.

34:30

One of the issues with mistakes

34:32

is it can lead to a

34:34

lot of automatic self-blame and I'm

34:36

a bad person and then people

34:38

feel guilty and when people are

34:41

in a state of guilt they

34:43

really want to improve themselves. So

34:45

rather taking a more realistic but

34:47

at the same time compassionate view

34:49

over one's mistakes one realizes really

34:51

that mistakes are just coping mechanisms

34:53

and rather than sort of... almost

34:56

cleansing yourself of your coping mechanisms,

34:58

it's about substituting not-so-good coping mechanisms

35:00

for better, more sophisticated ones. So

35:02

with the YouTube problem, it's worth

35:04

understanding, like, why, why am I

35:06

going on YouTube, what actually is

35:09

the function that it's serving? So

35:11

it might be if I'm in

35:13

a state where I feel depleted,

35:15

bored. angry, frustrated, it's a way

35:17

of taking my mind outside of,

35:19

getting outside of my head, for

35:21

instance while maybe getting a bit

35:24

entertained or learning some useful information,

35:26

but there's a mindlessness to it.

35:28

So then the next question would

35:30

be, what are the things I

35:32

could replace that with that help

35:34

you to serve that same function,

35:37

but with less of the downsides

35:39

and probably more benefits? Making sure

35:41

there aren't like deeper internal blocks.

35:43

So as I said earlier, with

35:45

some kinds of... common mistakes, procrastination

35:47

among others. Sometimes there are deeper

35:49

internal blocks. I think self-esteem is

35:52

a really important one, not necessarily

35:54

applicable in your case, but worth

35:56

talking about in general. And assuming

35:58

there aren't internal blocks, then you

36:00

get to sort of standard behavioral

36:02

work. So how do we program

36:05

in these better behaviors in your

36:07

day? And that's all about scheduling,

36:09

making sure that you have regular

36:11

time to do that thing, but

36:13

also regular time. in your week

36:15

to think like, okay, am I

36:18

going, am I on the right

36:20

track? So even that reflective time,

36:22

say once a week, where you

36:24

think, how is my YouTube use

36:26

going? Am I still using the

36:28

YouTube, am I still not doing

36:30

enough meditation? So there's enough of

36:33

a self-corrective. And you know, giving

36:35

yourself a leeway to make mistakes

36:37

and obviously it's not about being

36:39

perfect and never doing the bad

36:41

thing that you don't want to

36:43

do, but then seeing more gradual

36:46

improvement. over time, so that's probably

36:48

how I would think about this.

36:50

We've spoken quite a bit about,

36:52

sort of, I mean the whole

36:54

theme of what we're talking about

36:56

today is about personal development and

36:58

growth, and I find myself wondering,

37:01

we seem to be so driven

37:03

by this idea of growing, improving,

37:05

and I wonder how much of

37:07

that is sort of... implicit to

37:09

our nature, our being, and I

37:11

wonder how much of that is

37:14

because of maybe, you know, are

37:16

we sort of internalizing capitalism, the

37:18

idea that we've got to be

37:20

growing, you mentioned it earlier, and

37:22

in fact, and I just, I

37:24

mean, I'm also thinking about sort

37:26

of, you know, general well-being and

37:29

happiness, and if you look towards

37:31

Buddhism and meditation... sort of the

37:33

idea of being content with what

37:35

you have and present in the

37:37

moment. That seems to sort of

37:39

be almost in direct contrast with

37:42

this idea that we need to

37:44

grow and develop and acquire more.

37:46

Or is there a balance to

37:48

be found between the two? And

37:50

I guess my original question was

37:52

how much of this is implicit

37:55

to us as humans and how

37:57

much of it is because society

37:59

says we need to grow? I

38:01

really like this question. And I

38:03

think there are some really useful

38:05

distinctions to be made. So the

38:07

first question is, is there something

38:10

implicit? inherent to being a human

38:12

that's about growth and development. In

38:14

my view, the obvious answer would

38:16

be yes, because if you look

38:18

at the human animal across the

38:20

lifespan, and I think this is

38:23

well understood in psychology at this

38:25

point, we of course grow, we

38:27

grow physically, we develop new physical

38:29

capacities, we grow mentally, we develop

38:31

new mental capacities, we also grow

38:33

as a species. We also grow

38:35

as a species developed new capabilities,

38:38

we also grow as a species

38:40

developed new capabilities. and the ability

38:42

to do new things over vast

38:44

stretches of time. I think if

38:46

you look at the work of

38:48

people like Maslow who talked who

38:51

was one of the first people

38:53

but I think not the first

38:55

to talk about the concept of

38:57

self actualization. The idea that one

38:59

of the one of our inherent

39:01

psychological tendencies is to actualize ourselves

39:03

in the world in different ways

39:06

or the look, or the work

39:08

of Carl Jung who talked about

39:10

individuation, who talked about individuation, who

39:12

talked about individuation, who talked about

39:14

individuation, who talked about individuation, who

39:16

talked about individuation, who talked about

39:19

individuation, who talked about individuation, So

39:21

part of our life's task is

39:23

to become an individual. I think

39:25

it's clear that there is something

39:27

about growth and the development of

39:29

new capacities that is inherent to

39:32

being human. However, one problem is

39:34

when we don't grow in a

39:36

manner which is conchoding to our

39:38

true selves, but we absorb just

39:40

the values of the people around

39:42

us or the systems we happen

39:44

to form part of. So for

39:47

example, for one person, for one

39:49

person, like building businesses. making money,

39:51

being an entrepreneur, that might really

39:53

speak to their true self. They're

39:55

like a leader, they love producing

39:57

wealth, they love forming organizations. It's

40:00

true to themselves to pursue that

40:02

path. Another person, they might be

40:04

more stoking up by osmosis, what

40:06

they think they should do by

40:08

view of existing in a capitalist

40:10

context. Like in capitalist, in a

40:12

capitalist context. I'm not an anti-capitalist,

40:15

but in a capitalist context. Someone

40:17

might say, okay, making money clearly

40:19

is the way to be successful

40:21

and obviously lots of people fall

40:23

into this trap and then they

40:25

spend half their lives trying to

40:28

make a lot of money and

40:30

then they do and then they're

40:32

still terribly unhappy because unlike the

40:34

first person Making money isn't really

40:36

concordant with their value system. Actually

40:38

what they really want to do

40:40

is fill in the blank. So

40:43

I think growth is a huge

40:45

part of our nature, but It's

40:47

really important, as I said at

40:49

the beginning of the conversation, to

40:51

develop a conscious awareness of what

40:53

you care about, what fulfils you,

40:56

what fascinates you, so that you're

40:58

not growing some sort of image

41:00

or persona of yourself you can

41:02

use to get through life that

41:04

other people will approve of. But

41:06

you're actually developing, you're actualizing your

41:09

own set of values, something that's

41:11

concordance with your true self. you

41:13

love to help people, you become

41:15

a doctor. I think it's really

41:17

interesting then bringing concepts of Buddhism.

41:19

So as you said, Buddhism is

41:21

more about acceptance, acceptance of self,

41:24

acceptance of the way the world

41:26

is, and doesn't that contradict notions

41:28

of growth? I don't think it's

41:30

an either-or. So if you look

41:32

at Gestalt psychotherapy, one of the

41:34

really interesting things there is the

41:37

paradoxical theory of change. In this

41:39

theory, it's outlined that in order

41:41

to change and grow in a

41:43

way that's healthy and useful... you

41:45

first have to accept yourself. So

41:47

imagine if you have a weight

41:49

problem and you'd like to lose

41:52

weight, if you can't accept that

41:54

you're overweight, if you can't bear

41:56

to look at yourself in the

41:58

mirror, if you can't bear to

42:00

step on the scales, if you

42:02

can't bear to examine what you've

42:05

been eating or how you've been

42:07

living your life, it's actually going

42:09

to be really difficult to change.

42:11

If you feel you have rock-bottom

42:13

self-esteem, self-esteem, because you're at a

42:15

particular weight, it's going to change.

42:17

The more you accept where you

42:20

are and accept that wherever you

42:22

happen to be in whatever era

42:24

of your life, you have value

42:26

and you deserve good things in

42:28

your life, that removes a lot

42:30

of the mental blocks to the

42:33

behavioral change which we find so

42:35

difficult. So if you're 30 kilograms

42:37

overweight, but you can look yourself

42:39

in the mirror and say, you

42:41

know, even though I'm 30 kilograms

42:43

overweight and I'd like to change

42:46

that, I can still on some

42:48

basic level, except myself, except myself.

42:50

I don't have to burden myself

42:52

with self-criticism, then a person can

42:54

begin to do the things they

42:56

might do quite naturally to change.

42:58

Okay, now I'm going to hire

43:01

a personal trainer, or I'm going

43:03

to go for around on the

43:05

weekend. Or I'm going to take

43:07

a look at my food and

43:09

I guess I'll start to swap

43:11

out some of the unhealthy foods

43:14

with healthy foods. Often when we're

43:16

stuck in life, it's all because

43:18

we don't know what to do.

43:20

It's because we have those blocks.

43:22

And I think one huge block

43:24

is a lack of... surf acceptance.

43:26

So that's that's I think I

43:29

think it's not an either or

43:31

if now if you accept yourself

43:33

and you overcome these blocks and

43:35

actually want you what you want

43:37

to do is meditate in a

43:39

cave for 10 years and so

43:42

be it and some people have

43:44

done that and they've actually led

43:46

really interesting lives and wrote really

43:48

interesting books about that and some

43:50

people some people were not all

43:52

the same some people have that

43:54

contemplative nature. Some people want to

43:57

do things in the world and

43:59

they want to build things. Some

44:01

people are... more introspective. Some people

44:03

are warriors. We have these different

44:05

predispositions and you will grow in

44:07

that direction. The person who's sitting

44:10

in the cave meditating is still

44:12

growing. It's just in a kind

44:14

of more subtle, more quiet way

44:16

than the entrepreneur. But I guess

44:18

what I'm getting at is the

44:20

more you can develop a reasonable

44:23

level of self-acceptance, then there's this

44:25

kind of self... what humanistic psychologists

44:27

call a self-actylizing tendency takes takes

44:29

over. kind of start to grow

44:31

kind of automatically the way if

44:33

you put seeds in fertilize soil

44:35

and water it just grows you

44:38

don't have to tell the plant

44:40

what to do you've created the

44:42

right conditions so this for example

44:44

is a big feature of person-centered

44:46

therapy where Carl Rogers who found

44:48

this person-centered therapy talks about you

44:51

create the right conditions for a

44:53

person to grow and develop in

44:55

sometimes we do too much in

44:57

therapy, we try to make people

44:59

change or make people grow and

45:01

that can be a mistake. So

45:03

the same principle, acceptance and growth,

45:06

don't contradict each other but they

45:08

can complement each other. You've given

45:10

me lots of different thoughts there,

45:12

lots to think about, I think

45:14

perhaps the one I wanted to

45:16

just pick up on was this

45:19

idea that you can sort of

45:21

grow in the direction that's right

45:23

for you. And I'm hearing a

45:25

lot today about how we can

45:27

work that out from paying attention

45:29

to ourselves, listening to our bodies,

45:31

working out what feels right and

45:34

what doesn't. Because I think something

45:36

is, again, as a doctor, I

45:38

find there's quite a lot of

45:40

pressure in the field to rise

45:42

up and, you know, become a

45:44

leader in something or publish loads

45:47

of articles and become a professor.

45:49

never seems to be just okay

45:51

to be a good doctor and

45:53

I find that difficult because I

45:55

personally don't want to be the

45:57

next rural college of psychiatry president.

46:00

don't use that against me.

46:02

But you know I just I

46:04

just want to to be good at

46:06

my job be good for my

46:08

patients and then have a life

46:10

outside of work is that is you

46:12

know is that so bad? The pressures

46:15

that you know I feel would

46:17

make me think that it's bad

46:19

and make me feel that it's

46:21

bad and make me feel that

46:23

I can't do that I can't

46:25

do that but if I really

46:27

listen to my body that's that's

46:30

and I'm honest with myself

46:32

that's what I want. So you're

46:34

asking like is it's okay to

46:36

I don't know if it is it okay

46:38

to be average I don't know if that's

46:40

the right question but is it I

46:43

guess you're not really asking the

46:45

question is it okay to want what

46:47

you want? Yeah and not be

46:50

super ambitious sort of be happy with

46:52

you know what you might see is a

46:54

relatively reasonable attainable goal

46:56

that's not sort of

46:58

you're not aiming for a sky, you're

47:00

just sort of saying I'd like to be,

47:03

you know, here and I'm happy with that.

47:05

So I've talked about this when

47:07

I've talked about personality theory and

47:09

like the big five theory of

47:11

personality traits. So one of the really

47:13

useful things about learning a model

47:15

of personality or this model

47:17

of personality is it gives you

47:19

a framework to understand yourself. But

47:21

the first thing a person needs to

47:23

understand is that as I said before

47:26

people are different. in all sorts of

47:28

ways, in pretty much every way you could

47:30

conceive of, just like people come in a

47:32

range of heights and weights. There's the

47:34

same level of variation in terms

47:36

of our personality. Some people are

47:38

much more naturally ambitious and hardworking.

47:40

Some people might be ambitious

47:43

and hardworking when it comes to one

47:45

specific thing, but then not a lot

47:47

of other things. Some people are

47:49

more interested in being around

47:51

people and leadership. Some people

47:54

are more naturally enthusiastic. Some

47:56

people are more or less

47:58

relationship focused. So it comes

48:00

down to again, just being sure,

48:03

coming to terms with what is

48:05

your nature, removing those and making

48:07

sure that there are blocks offiscating

48:09

your nature, because I think that

48:12

can happen especially in a world

48:14

that's very busy, as we've talked

48:16

about it, very filled with distractions.

48:18

It's very easy actually to not

48:20

be introspective and to therefore... Kind

48:23

of not have a good understanding

48:25

and not not a good level

48:27

of self-awareness, and I think that's

48:29

a problem And then you know

48:32

things I do think things like

48:34

unconscious fears unconscious desires can get

48:36

in the way As well, but

48:38

assuming you do come to know

48:40

yourself you do come to understand

48:43

your nature you do get in

48:45

touch with your body and you're

48:47

good with certain choices, then you're

48:49

making a certain then that seems

48:52

fine and one of the things

48:54

I think about maturing and getting

48:56

older is realizing you have to

48:58

make certain choices and also not

49:00

making a choice is a choice

49:03

and there's a huge amount of

49:05

opportunity cost to be considered like

49:07

you're becoming a psychiatrist that means

49:09

the more you become a psychiatrist

49:11

the less you can be an

49:14

orthopedic surgeon and hopefully that's good

49:16

and that's the right decision based

49:18

on your nature many people make

49:20

that choice incorrectly because they do

49:23

the thing perhaps that their parents

49:25

wanted them to do so they

49:27

fully qualify as a lawyer for

49:29

example and actually wasn't in their

49:31

value system to become a lawyer

49:34

it was what their parents wanted

49:36

for them. So I think people

49:38

run into this these problems actually

49:40

quite often and that might be

49:43

the formation of a lot of

49:45

bit-life crises for people where people

49:47

wake up one day in their

49:49

40s and realize they've made certain

49:51

decisions that they can't strictly on...

49:54

they can't undo, perhaps they can

49:56

change direction, but there's a certain

49:58

finiteness to life, which means... you

50:00

do have to be careful and

50:02

conscious about your choices but the

50:05

first step I think is understanding

50:07

your nature. I mean it does

50:09

sound like there's a trap there

50:11

where if you're not really attuned

50:14

to your to your body and

50:16

your needs you could fall into

50:18

the trap of of thinking that

50:20

the path of least resistance is

50:22

what you want and what's good

50:25

for you. Yeah and actually... that

50:27

might feel good at the time

50:29

or might feel feel easy but

50:31

actually there's got to be a

50:34

balance there of actually pushing yourself

50:36

a little bit and making sure

50:38

that you're not just going avoid

50:40

you know you're not leading you're

50:42

going down the path of avoidance.

50:45

So one idea I like to

50:47

play with is called the economics

50:49

of discomfort and that's the idea

50:51

that you get to choose like

50:53

discomfort is inevitable in life it's

50:56

a part of life like embidism

50:58

life is suffering and you get

51:00

to choose Well you don't always

51:02

get to choose. If you're lucky

51:05

you get to choose when you

51:07

feel that discomfort. You can either

51:09

have a little bit of it

51:11

up front consistently or you can

51:13

delay it, delay it, delay it

51:16

and you get a huge amount

51:18

at the back end. This is

51:20

what also Analemke talks about in

51:22

dopamine when she talks about dopamine

51:25

balance. You do a lot of,

51:27

a lot of, get a lot

51:29

of cheap dopamine highs and then

51:31

all of a sudden your dopamine

51:33

depleted. Another example, when it comes

51:36

to nutrition and lifestyle, you can

51:38

avoid exercising because it's comfortable, you

51:40

can eat junk foods because it's

51:42

comfortable, you can do that for

51:45

10 years, you can delay discomfort

51:47

as much as possible. At some

51:49

point, you're going to have to

51:51

pay the bill. And paying the

51:53

bill might look like having heart

51:56

disease or being obese, having problems

51:58

getting upstairs. The alternative is to

52:00

pay the discomfort up front and

52:02

that might be going for the

52:04

run in the morning or eating

52:07

the salad instead of the pizza.

52:09

These small discount... which if you

52:11

do them often enough, what's the

52:13

reward you get on that investment,

52:16

you get a healthier body, you

52:18

have less health problems, you have

52:20

more energy, you sleep better. So

52:22

this economics discomfort idea is a

52:24

really good shorthand of being like,

52:27

is this behavior actually making me

52:29

feel really good right now? And

52:31

I'm going to have to pay

52:33

for this later, as we might

52:36

note. from more concrete examples like

52:38

taking drugs say for instance where

52:40

you take ecstasy to get a

52:42

flood of serotonin and a person

52:44

feels really great and then they

52:47

have a come down or am

52:49

I going to pain a little

52:51

bit of discomfort proactively but then

52:53

that's going to benefit me in

52:55

the long run like doing a

52:58

meditation which feels annoying but then

53:00

I have an enlightenment experience in

53:02

a couple of years and I

53:04

feel really amazing or I'm just

53:07

more a piece of myself or

53:09

whatever. That's a really good way

53:11

of helping to make... these distinctions

53:13

I think. I'd like to change

53:15

gear a little bit and just

53:18

talk about a different sort of

53:20

area if that's okay. This is

53:22

perhaps something that our many of

53:24

our listeners who are either in

53:27

who are working in sort of

53:29

as mental health professionals, maybe that

53:31

therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, may experience and

53:33

that's the idea that we're dealing

53:35

with in our line of work

53:38

every day. or often people who

53:40

are very distressed, experiencing a very

53:42

broad, high range of emotions, and

53:44

we're exposed to that, and we

53:47

hear very difficult stories. I wonder,

53:49

in your experience, how important is

53:51

it to protect yourself from these

53:53

emotions? And I guess what I

53:55

mean by that is now more

53:58

than ever in my current job.

54:00

I'm finding that I take home

54:02

a lot of my my work

54:04

you know a lot of it

54:06

I ruminate on or it sits

54:09

on my shoulders a little bit

54:11

and I find myself being affected

54:13

by some of the difficult stories

54:15

I hear is that is that

54:18

a good thing to be experiencing

54:20

should I be taking active steps

54:22

to protect myself do you think

54:24

I think if you work with

54:26

people who are a lot of

54:29

distress a lot of mental distress

54:31

it has to be tackled proactively

54:33

the same way if a firefighter

54:35

is walking into a burning building

54:38

they're going to put on protective

54:40

gear and that's not to stigmatize

54:42

mental health problems but it's just

54:44

a fact of working with mentally

54:46

distressed people you know we are

54:49

hyper social beings emotions are contagious

54:51

and if you're working around distressed

54:53

people it's going to be it's

54:55

going to have its difficulty it

54:57

can be emotionally draining I would

55:00

say some personalities can probably handle

55:02

it more easily than others. So

55:04

if you work in mental health,

55:06

it's good to have an awareness

55:09

of actually how vulnerable am I

55:11

to someone else's distress. Do I

55:13

take everything on automatically myself? Are

55:15

these emotions really contagious to me

55:17

or am I quite resilient with

55:20

it? But I'm knowing that can

55:22

help inform what stream you're working

55:24

because within mental health. There are

55:26

obviously different streams with different levels

55:29

of acuteness and severity. There's a

55:31

difference between working on an acute

55:33

psychiatric ward, say, or seeing people

55:35

as an outpatient for an autism

55:37

assessment, much different levels of intensity.

55:40

But regardless of your disposition or

55:42

what stream you work in, you

55:44

want to be proactive. I think

55:46

one of the basic things, everyone

55:49

in psychotherapy learns, and I think

55:51

more people in psychiatry should learn

55:53

is... It's important to have a

55:55

developed understanding of what's your responsibility

55:57

versus what's your patient or client's

56:00

responsibility and to not mix those

56:02

up to make it very clear

56:04

and explicit in your mind. what

56:06

your role is. In general in

56:08

mental health, if you're working in

56:11

that area, your responsibility is going

56:13

to be to help and facilitate.

56:15

It's not going to be to

56:17

solve that person's problems for them.

56:20

There are exceptions. If you're a

56:22

psychiatrist and you're seeing someone who's

56:24

acutely psychotic in hospital or manic

56:26

and perhaps they don't have what's

56:28

called the capacity to make decisions.

56:31

that are appropriate and safe for

56:33

them, then temporarily you and sort

56:35

of the hospital and the organization

56:37

have responsibility for them in those

56:40

instances, but that's really just in

56:42

the short term. Once they're better,

56:44

once they've improved in the medium

56:46

to long term, it's still their

56:48

life ultimately and for the most

56:51

part, it's still going to be

56:53

their responsibility to make the best

56:55

decisions that they can. This is

56:57

not an argument against helping people.

56:59

People need help. Many people in

57:02

our society need help, whether they

57:04

have a mental illness or not.

57:06

But help is different from solving

57:08

a problem for someone. In fact,

57:11

if you solve people's problems too

57:13

much for them, you disempower them.

57:15

So again, this is a feature

57:17

of Rogerian therapy or person-centered therapy,

57:19

which one of the fundamentals of

57:22

that kind of therapy is non-directiveness.

57:24

Very much not giving advice. not

57:26

telling a person what to do,

57:28

because when you tell a person

57:31

what to do, on some subtle

57:33

level, you take away their agency

57:35

and their autonomy to decide for

57:37

themselves. Now, I think there's a

57:39

time and place for more and

57:42

less directiveness, but there's still a

57:44

really useful lesson to be gained

57:46

for that, which is, as healthcare

57:48

providers, we can have this tendency.

57:50

to take on too much responsibility

57:53

for our patients and clients. And

57:55

that's one of the things that

57:57

can make it very difficult. It's

57:59

one of the reasons why we

58:02

might ruminate. about someone after we've

58:04

gone home from work. It's one

58:06

of the reasons we might stay

58:08

late at work. And it's one

58:10

of the reasons we might take

58:13

it very personally or can really

58:15

affect ourselves worth if things with

58:17

our patients or clients don't improve.

58:19

Doctors and other fields, you know,

58:22

take an oncologist who deals with

58:24

cancer, they I think have a

58:26

more concrete understanding of some patients

58:28

have a really good prognosis. Some

58:30

patients are terminal. there's a lot

58:33

in between. I think there's the

58:35

same as true in mental health

58:37

there's different levels of severity and

58:39

there are different prognosis and sometimes

58:42

you can do everything correctly as

58:44

a healthcare provider and things don't

58:46

go the way you would want

58:48

them to go. So developing a

58:50

very clear and explicit philosophy around

58:53

that and the difference between what

58:55

are your responsibilities and the client

58:57

or patients I think is very

58:59

important. I think this is just

59:01

scratching the surface. The other thing

59:04

I would say for health care

59:06

providers is we tend to go

59:08

into health care because we're very

59:10

agreeable empathic people so emotions can

59:13

be more contagious for us. Another

59:15

thing they talk about in Gestalt

59:17

therapy is the idea of confluence.

59:19

So we can become psychologically too

59:21

close to our clients confluence with

59:24

them and have a difficulty establishing

59:26

clear boundaries. I think I think

59:28

it's good for any health care

59:30

provider, but definitely someone in mental

59:33

health to consider their own psychotherapy,

59:35

or at the very least, some

59:37

sort of practice that improves their

59:39

self-awareness and allows them to introspect.

59:41

Because just because we're nice, we're

59:44

nice, a lot of the time,

59:46

health care providers, but just because

59:48

we're nice, it doesn't mean we're

59:50

not prone to psychological dysfunction. We're

59:52

just prone to a different kind

59:55

of psychological dysfunction than say a

59:57

lawyer might be. lawyers might be

59:59

more prone to being, let's say,

1:00:01

disagree. and arrogant because they have

1:00:04

a more contentious nature perhaps. Healthcare

1:00:06

providers are prone to people pleasing,

1:00:08

martyr syndrome, self-sacrifice, so we really

1:00:10

want to become, if that we

1:00:12

do have that tendency, we want

1:00:15

to become aware of it and

1:00:17

develop stronger boundaries, again clear lines

1:00:19

between us and our clients. I

1:00:21

think there's a lot more to

1:00:24

say again looking after our physical

1:00:26

health of course, making sure there's

1:00:28

balance in... the rest of our

1:00:30

lives as we've talked about but

1:00:32

those are some really common problems

1:00:35

with health care I think. And

1:00:37

I'm really glad you mentioned therapy

1:00:39

because a follow-up question was going

1:00:41

to be do you think we

1:00:44

should all be in therapy as

1:00:46

mental health professionals? I think we

1:00:48

should all try it. Psychotherapy isn't

1:00:50

for everyone so just thinking about

1:00:52

the general population I don't actually

1:00:55

think psychotherapy is for everyone. It's

1:00:57

clearly a very useful tool. for

1:00:59

a lot of people, but chances

1:01:01

are if you work in mental

1:01:03

health and you want to work

1:01:06

in mental health and it aligns

1:01:08

with your values in some way,

1:01:10

I think it makes it much

1:01:12

more likely that psychotherapy would be

1:01:15

a good tool for you. Most

1:01:17

psychotherapy courses, of course, mandate some

1:01:19

form of personal psychotherapy and psychiatry

1:01:21

programs used to mandate it, but

1:01:23

now they don't and I think

1:01:26

that's a shame because... Particularly in

1:01:28

psychiatry we wield a lot of

1:01:30

power. If we're not very self-aware,

1:01:32

I'm particularly not aware of some

1:01:35

of the unconscious forces which govern

1:01:37

us, we can not always use

1:01:39

that power in the best way.

1:01:41

So I think particularly as psychiatrists,

1:01:43

we should be really self-aware, we

1:01:46

should be really conscious of the

1:01:48

ethical mind fields. that we work

1:01:50

in all the time. But even

1:01:52

if you work in one of

1:01:54

the other professions if you're a

1:01:57

mental health nurse or... or even

1:01:59

a physical occupational therapist working in

1:02:01

a mental health setting, it's challenging.

1:02:03

You're working with distressed people and

1:02:06

you want to go into those

1:02:08

environments with a sense of personal

1:02:10

integrity and a sense of groundedness

1:02:12

and psychotherapy can give you that.

1:02:14

Probably it doesn't have to be

1:02:17

psychotherapy. It could be regular journaling,

1:02:19

it could be a meditation practice,

1:02:21

it could be... having at least

1:02:23

a few friends where you're comfortable

1:02:26

speaking in an unfiltered, non-judgmental, non-self-critical

1:02:28

way. But if you're stuck, I

1:02:30

think psychotherapy would be a good

1:02:32

tool to explore. Alex, I, I,

1:02:34

um, something I've been thinking about

1:02:37

a lot lately, um, is quite

1:02:39

an, I imagine quite a normal

1:02:41

experience for, for many people, but

1:02:43

I've not really come across it

1:02:46

in terms of, you know, my

1:02:48

studies and, you know, understanding psychiatry.

1:02:50

This idea that, I mean, I'm

1:02:52

assuming I'm not just generated this

1:02:54

myself, this idea that sometimes it

1:02:57

feels like my mind is against

1:02:59

me. Now, what I mean by

1:03:01

that is, and I think people

1:03:03

relate to this, it's not uncommon

1:03:05

for me to sort of be

1:03:08

doing completely fine, and then suddenly

1:03:10

I have an intrusive memory of

1:03:12

something awful that happened. ages ago

1:03:14

and it comes up and it

1:03:17

reminds me you know really embarrassing

1:03:19

thing and why is it why

1:03:21

does it come now it's come

1:03:23

out of the blue is it

1:03:25

I was having a perfectly good

1:03:28

time and I've got to remember

1:03:30

this horrible thing that happened or

1:03:32

I can have you know a

1:03:34

negative thought that pops in my

1:03:37

head and says that there's no

1:03:39

point doing this you're going to

1:03:41

fail or you're not good enough

1:03:43

that kind of thing or even

1:03:45

just a horrible intrusive thought which

1:03:48

we all get we all get

1:03:50

sort of intrusive thoughts from time

1:03:52

to time to time but I

1:03:54

guess what I'm saying is it

1:03:56

can feel like a lot of

1:03:59

the time that I'm my own

1:04:01

worst enemy. I'm battling against myself.

1:04:03

And I'm often... my own, my

1:04:05

biggest barrier to my own achievements,

1:04:08

to my own success. What do

1:04:10

you think it is about human

1:04:12

psychology that creates that feeling? I'm

1:04:14

sort of curious about whether or

1:04:16

not, you know, Freud was on

1:04:19

onto something with the id and

1:04:21

ego sort of battling each other.

1:04:23

I don't know if that, if

1:04:25

that would go some way to

1:04:28

formulating what might be going on.

1:04:30

How might you think about some

1:04:32

of this? I think Freud's. had

1:04:34

something good to say about it.

1:04:36

I think Freud was probably the

1:04:39

first person really to talk about

1:04:41

what he would call intra-psychic conflict,

1:04:43

by which I mean, again, we

1:04:45

have competing drives, we have competing

1:04:48

wishes and desires, and when there's

1:04:50

conflict between them it causes us

1:04:52

a lot of mental suffering. But

1:04:54

Karyong talked about it as well,

1:04:56

when he said that generally a

1:04:59

lot of what he found was

1:05:01

a lot of his patients. were

1:05:03

at war with themselves. Again, there's

1:05:05

this idea, psycho analytically speaking, that

1:05:07

we are kind of a collection

1:05:10

of different personalities with different goals

1:05:12

and drives and they get into

1:05:14

conflict with one another. It's always

1:05:16

interesting to examine, you know, when

1:05:19

we have competing instincts, what is

1:05:21

each part of our service trying

1:05:23

to accomplish? Exactly. So you said,

1:05:25

you know, you're trying to do

1:05:27

something that that you think might

1:05:30

better yourself, but you have this

1:05:32

fear of failure. So if you

1:05:34

have to think about two parts

1:05:36

of yourself, like one part of

1:05:39

yourself wants to accomplish something and

1:05:41

the other part is coming up

1:05:43

with these fears of failure, can

1:05:45

you make a case for both

1:05:47

parts? Like what does each part

1:05:50

want? I think in that example,

1:05:52

yes. I think I could suggest

1:05:54

that the... parts of driving me

1:05:56

obviously wants to grow, wants to

1:05:58

maybe, you know, and if you're

1:06:01

thinking back in the evolutionary terms,

1:06:03

maybe to go out there, put

1:06:05

yourself out and get the... the

1:06:07

food that's far, that's not attainable.

1:06:10

And the sort of negative voices

1:06:12

are trying to protect me and

1:06:14

making sure I'm not taking too

1:06:16

much risk and I'm not going

1:06:18

to injure myself from trying to

1:06:21

strive to this and really, you

1:06:23

know, socially ruin myself, that kind

1:06:25

of thing. I can make a

1:06:27

case for just remembering something silly

1:06:30

I did once and that was

1:06:32

really embarrassing just out of the

1:06:34

blue or... Yeah, or just generally

1:06:36

sort of, I mean, what would

1:06:38

be the function? I mean, I'm

1:06:41

jumping around a bit, but I,

1:06:43

you know, I'm also, in the

1:06:45

back of my mind, I'm thinking

1:06:47

about this idea of the death

1:06:49

drive and death instinct and what

1:06:52

would these, what, I can't think

1:06:54

possibly what evolutionary advantage or what

1:06:56

functional advantage they would have for

1:06:58

us. That's a good question, and

1:07:01

I'm not sure I have the

1:07:03

answer for those things. But I

1:07:05

would say for the most part,

1:07:07

when we have those negative impulses

1:07:09

and thoughts, they are still trying

1:07:12

to protect us. So even if

1:07:14

you are having thoughts of being

1:07:16

embarrassed from some sort of childhood

1:07:18

experience, it sounds like there might

1:07:21

be an idiosyncrasy to it as

1:07:23

to when our minds might produce

1:07:25

these thoughts or bring them into

1:07:27

consciousness. But then sometimes if you

1:07:29

actually look at the situation there

1:07:32

can be a surprising logic or

1:07:34

rationality to it like you might

1:07:36

be able to you might be

1:07:38

about to put yourself in an

1:07:41

uncomfortable social situation and immediately your

1:07:43

mind goes to embarrassment so your

1:07:45

mind is thinking remember that time

1:07:47

where you took a social risk

1:07:49

and you dared to be yourself

1:07:52

in preschool and it didn't work

1:07:54

out well don't don't make that

1:07:56

mistake again and that's certainly the

1:07:58

case with like trauma, trauma related

1:08:00

anxiety. and flashbacks and trauma related

1:08:03

hyperarosa where you get really agitated

1:08:05

I think that a lot about

1:08:07

self-protection. I do think in darker

1:08:09

states of consciousness and for perhaps

1:08:12

people who have darker experiences there

1:08:14

are also more like frankly self-destructive

1:08:16

impulses, particularly when people have experiences

1:08:18

which are so intense that they

1:08:20

lead to intense self-criticism, self-loathing feeling

1:08:23

of unworthiness, feeling of unworthiness, feeling

1:08:25

of unworthiness, feeling of unworthiness, feeling

1:08:27

of unworthiness, feeling of unworthiness, feeling

1:08:29

of unworthiness, feeling of unworthiness, feeling,

1:08:32

I think that's when you get

1:08:34

behaviors, which aren't just about self-protection

1:08:36

exactly, not just about staying in

1:08:38

the comfort zone, but are more

1:08:40

like actively destructive. And you can

1:08:43

see that more in things like

1:08:45

alcohol addiction, choosing unhealthy partners for

1:08:47

a relationship, things like that. There's

1:08:49

such a low-service theme that we

1:08:51

do things that aren't really going

1:08:54

to protect us, but are going

1:08:56

to be actively destructive. I think

1:08:58

all of all of those things

1:09:00

can happen. I guess lastly, I

1:09:03

was going to ask you about

1:09:05

something else that perhaps is out

1:09:07

of my comfort zone, and I

1:09:09

think many people will be able

1:09:11

to relate to this. So I

1:09:14

particularly struggle with the idea of

1:09:16

public speaking presentations, that kind of

1:09:18

thing, and I'm guilty of going

1:09:20

through much of my sort of

1:09:23

years. avoiding these things. And, you

1:09:25

know, I'm not going to go

1:09:27

into it today, but I can

1:09:29

think, I'm sure I can think

1:09:31

of much of the sort of

1:09:34

psychological origins of why I might

1:09:36

have developed these theories in way

1:09:38

and why I may have avoided

1:09:40

them, but here I am today

1:09:43

in a position where I'm finding

1:09:45

it increasingly hard to avoid these

1:09:47

things. As I gain more responsibility,

1:09:49

I have to do more public

1:09:51

speaking, I have to be in

1:09:54

a position where I am on

1:09:56

that podium or I am presenting.

1:09:58

And it terrifies me. You're

1:10:00

doing your job? Well, and I

1:10:03

wonder, what advice would you give

1:10:05

to someone in my position at

1:10:07

the moment? And if that's too

1:10:09

broad, I can narrow it down.

1:10:11

No, it's a good question. Using

1:10:13

the principles we talked about today,

1:10:16

the first thing would be to

1:10:18

see if you can get close

1:10:20

enough to your nature, by which

1:10:22

I mean... Is it that you

1:10:24

want to do public speaking? You

1:10:26

have the desire to, but there

1:10:29

are some blocks, you've had some

1:10:31

difficult experiences, or maybe you have

1:10:33

a certain disposition that makes it

1:10:35

difficult for you? Or do you

1:10:37

just not like public speaking and

1:10:40

not particularly want to pursue it?

1:10:42

And of course, depending on the

1:10:44

answer, there would be a different

1:10:46

prescription. I think a degree of

1:10:48

self-recognition and self-acceptance is important. If

1:10:50

a person does not get value

1:10:53

from or finds a particular pursuit

1:10:55

difficult, there's no reason necessarily why

1:10:57

they have to pursue it. At

1:10:59

the same time, it can be

1:11:01

very very valuable to pursue something

1:11:03

that's challenging and outside of the

1:11:06

comfort zone because it does help

1:11:08

us to grow, it creates the

1:11:10

sense of courage and resilience, but

1:11:12

there's plenty of things that one

1:11:14

can do to do that. So

1:11:16

for any individual, the question is...

1:11:19

Why do I pursue that specific

1:11:21

thing? If a person feels that

1:11:23

public speaking is like an inevitable

1:11:25

part of their life that they

1:11:27

just have to deal with, but

1:11:29

it's uncomfortable, then yes, it's worth

1:11:32

letting that set of skills. If

1:11:34

it's something that's optional and they

1:11:36

really don't think they get that

1:11:38

much value from it, then I

1:11:40

think it's perfectly reasonable not to

1:11:42

pursue it. If they feel, God,

1:11:45

it is kind of thrilling and

1:11:47

I do like it. and I

1:11:49

do get some value from it

1:11:51

but I have all these blocks

1:11:53

against it and it feels very

1:11:55

uncomfortable then that's definitely a case

1:11:58

for slowly exposing yourself to it,

1:12:00

figuring out what the blocks are,

1:12:02

dismantling those blocks, and also just

1:12:04

learning through time, practice, being comfortable

1:12:06

with failure, making mistakes when you're

1:12:08

doing it, and getting competent at

1:12:11

it and learning how to do

1:12:13

it. I do think when it

1:12:15

comes to personality, growth and change.

1:12:17

I'm incredibly pessimistic about people as

1:12:19

a group, as a whole, because

1:12:21

the literature on personality tells us

1:12:24

that personality remains quite stable over

1:12:26

time. But in anyone individual, if

1:12:28

they say, I just love to,

1:12:30

I know I'm an introvert, but

1:12:32

I do get a lot from

1:12:34

social situations or public speaking, so

1:12:37

I'd love to at least learn

1:12:39

the skills of extroversion, I think

1:12:41

there's way more scope to developing

1:12:43

that than people think. We think

1:12:45

we're sort of in these... tracks

1:12:47

and we have to like stay

1:12:50

within the lines and I think

1:12:52

with time and practice you can

1:12:54

cultivate almost any personality trade at

1:12:56

least the skills of that personality

1:12:58

trade it doesn't it may not

1:13:01

change fundamentally who you it may

1:13:03

not change fundamentally who you it

1:13:05

may not change fundamentally who you

1:13:07

are but it can change what

1:13:09

you can do and what you're

1:13:11

capable of so perhaps you're an

1:13:14

introvert but you can learn the

1:13:16

skills of being an extrovert and

1:13:18

at least that means in the

1:13:20

situations where you do have to

1:13:22

public speak where you do have

1:13:24

to network, where you do have

1:13:27

to mingle at the party, you

1:13:29

can. It's a choice that you

1:13:31

can do rather than you have

1:13:33

to be introverted, so you have

1:13:35

a greater set of tools. Similarly,

1:13:37

if you're really extraverted, but you

1:13:40

realize sometimes I need to have

1:13:42

a deep one-on-one conversation, or sometimes

1:13:44

I need to be by myself

1:13:46

and I need to learn how

1:13:48

to make that okay, then it's

1:13:50

important that you absolutely can learn

1:13:53

how to do that. You should

1:13:55

know that you can cultivate a

1:13:57

work ethic and that it's worth

1:13:59

doing because... cultivating a work ethic

1:14:01

can bring you all sorts of

1:14:03

rewards, doesn't, again, won't necessarily change

1:14:06

who you are, but it can

1:14:08

at least change what you can

1:14:10

achieve and what you can actualize

1:14:12

in your life. So I think

1:14:14

the thing that I'm advocating most

1:14:16

in this answer is a sense

1:14:19

of consciousness, developing choices and intentionality,

1:14:21

and knowing there's nothing you have

1:14:23

to do. but there's many more

1:14:25

there's many things you could do

1:14:27

and investing the time and energy

1:14:29

to develop capacities that you don't

1:14:32

already have would almost always be

1:14:34

worth it. Now which capacity you

1:14:36

choose to develop that's up to

1:14:38

you is an infinite you know

1:14:40

there's an infinite amount of skills

1:14:42

you can develop but at least

1:14:45

know that you can and then

1:14:47

choose carefully because as we've talked

1:14:49

about before choices have consequences. Thanks

1:14:51

Alex, so it's been really fascinating

1:14:53

talking to you and it has

1:14:55

been insightful. I think I've certainly

1:14:58

taken away some things from from

1:15:00

today, you know, in particular, this

1:15:02

idea of, well, a lot of

1:15:04

the answers that I seek are

1:15:06

within and I really need to

1:15:08

pay attention to myself. I need

1:15:11

to, like what you said, audit

1:15:13

myself, and that's not just in

1:15:15

terms of... how I'm feeling internally

1:15:17

but also my behaviors. And then

1:15:19

that would really allow me to

1:15:22

kind of actually take a bit

1:15:24

of a step back and see

1:15:26

what things I feel are there

1:15:28

are room for improvement and what

1:15:30

things I'm happy with. And I

1:15:32

think you've really kind of got

1:15:35

across the sense that, you know,

1:15:37

there isn't a right or wrong

1:15:39

answer. It will be down to

1:15:41

a combination of my own personality

1:15:43

traits. my own ambitions, my own

1:15:45

drives in my, you know, in

1:15:48

things that are going on for

1:15:50

me. I've also enjoyed the

1:15:52

also of insights into the

1:15:54

sort of insights

1:15:56

into some of

1:15:58

the kind of

1:16:01

biological and evolutionary

1:16:03

reasons for perhaps

1:16:05

why I'm feeling

1:16:07

the way I'm

1:16:09

feeling and why

1:16:11

I'm do the things

1:16:14

we do. So I've really why

1:16:16

to you. Thank you. things Well,

1:16:18

thank you very much for your

1:16:20

questions and we'll do this

1:16:22

again. talking to you. Thank you. Great, well thank you very

1:16:24

much for much for listening. This

1:16:27

is we'll do this again. podcast all

1:16:29

about psychiatry, psychology, therapy, and

1:16:31

related topics. topics. If you you

1:16:33

guys have any questions for

1:16:35

us us like answered on the

1:16:37

podcast, do send us an

1:16:39

email to Mind podcast at at gmail .com. to

1:16:41

Also, if you want to help

1:16:43

the podcast out, follow us on social

1:16:45

media, a share it with a friend,

1:16:47

a rating us a rating really helps people helps

1:16:49

people to find us. Thanks for

1:16:52

listening we'll see you here next time. time.