0:00

Adolescents are excessively egoistic regarding themselves

0:02

as of of their universe and the

0:04

sole object of interest and yet at

0:06

no time in later life are

0:08

they capable of so much self

0:10

-sacrifice and devotion. They form They form

0:12

the most passionate love relations to to

0:14

break them off as abruptly as

0:17

they began them. On the On the one

0:19

hand they throw themselves enthusiastically into

0:21

the life of the community and

0:23

on the other hand they have

0:25

an overpowering longing for solitude. They're selfish

0:27

and materially minded at the same time

0:30

of lofty idealism. At At times

0:32

their behaviour to other people is

0:34

rough and inconsiderate, yet they

0:36

themselves are extremely touchy. Their moods fear

0:38

fear between light -hearted optimism and

0:40

the blackest pessimism. Sometimes they they

0:43

will work with indefatigable enthusiasm, and

0:45

and at other times they sluggish

0:47

and apathetic. Welcome

1:00

back to the podcast. My name is

1:02

Alex. name I'm a consultant psychiatrist. I

1:05

hope I hope doing well as we get

1:07

closer to the holidays. closer to the The

1:10

opening quote you just

1:12

heard was today's

1:14

guest, guest, Matilda Gosling, quoting Anna Freud

1:16

about teenagers. Today's episode is episode

1:18

is all about parenting, It's the the

1:20

first episode ever made about parenting.

1:22

parenting. Matilda is an

1:24

author, author, social scientist and researcher. written

1:26

written two books by by Press,

1:28

both both about parenting. The The

1:31

first one, evidence -based parenting,

1:33

came out last January and

1:35

is all about parenting from from

1:37

toddlerhood to preteens and And her second

1:39

book is coming out this

1:42

January coming and it's called

1:44

and it's called Teenagers the Evidence Base. In her

1:46

latest book, Matilda uses evidence from

1:48

social and experimental psychology. psychology, neuroscience,

1:51

family systems and adolescent

1:53

development. to to examine

1:56

the parent -teenager relationship, the world,

1:58

mood and maturity. health

2:00

and resilience, and the building

2:03

blocks needed for an adolescent

2:05

to become a healthy adult.

2:07

So today we discuss both

2:09

of Matilda's books, including what

2:11

it's like to parent preteens

2:13

and teens, what the evidence

2:15

says about different parenting styles,

2:17

what the stage of adolescence

2:19

is actually about, what function

2:21

it serves psychologically. the problem

2:23

of social contagion amongst teenagers

2:25

when it comes to things

2:27

like self-harm, eating disorders, and

2:29

gender dysphoria, some guidance in

2:31

parenting adolescents around drugs and

2:33

alcohol, how to support one's

2:35

children in choosing their life

2:38

path, and many other topics.

2:40

This is the Thinking Mind

2:42

podcast, a podcast all about

2:44

psychiatry, psychology, self-development, and other

2:46

topics. Thank you very much

2:48

for listening, and now here's

2:50

today's interview with Matilda Gosling.

3:03

Matilda, thank you so much for

3:05

coming on the podcast. Thank you

3:08

for having me. Before we get

3:10

started, we're going to talk all

3:12

about parenting today. Preteens, but also

3:14

teens. Maybe you could tell us

3:17

a bit about your bio, your

3:19

research interests, and how you got

3:21

to this point in your career.

3:23

Yes, of course, thank you. So

3:26

I'm a social researcher and that

3:28

means that I work for a

3:30

variety of mainly charities but also

3:32

governments and some companies as well

3:35

doing research projects that really focus

3:37

on social impact and I've tended

3:39

to specialize in the past in

3:42

issues relating to education and skills

3:44

and also some areas that touch

3:46

on social psychology as well. And

3:48

I first came to looking at

3:51

the research on parenting during the

3:53

pandemic because I was looking for

3:55

a book that summarised the evidence

3:57

base that would help me out.

4:00

find one. I could find

4:02

a couple that kind of

4:04

touched on particular aspects but

4:06

nothing that's emphasised everything that

4:08

was out there and cut

4:10

across different disciplines as well.

4:12

So I wanted to do

4:14

something that really looked at

4:17

what the evidence says as

4:19

opposed to taking a philosophical

4:21

approach. So really looking at

4:23

what works when it comes

4:25

to things like happiness and

4:27

wellbeing and physical health and

4:29

behaviour, learning and play, that

4:31

kind of thing. and then

4:33

I was approached by, sorry,

4:35

my agent approached Swift Press

4:37

and they gave me a

4:39

second book as well looking

4:41

at teenagers and that book

4:43

on teenagers comes out in

4:45

January and that focuses a

4:47

little bit more broadly than

4:49

parenting so I'm hoping it

4:51

should be relevant to psychotherapists

4:53

and teachers as well but

4:55

it really summarizes what the

4:57

evidence says about teenagers, development,

4:59

relationships, online connections, mental health,

5:01

that kind of thing. So

5:03

these two books both really

5:05

came out of your own

5:07

need and challenges that you

5:09

are experiencing in your own

5:11

life? Yes, very much so.

5:14

I think one of the

5:16

drivers for doing the research

5:18

was that I was slightly

5:20

at sea with everything and

5:22

really wanted to understand what

5:24

the evidence said in a

5:26

way that I could apply

5:28

it to my own situations

5:30

and obviously everybody's different and

5:32

their situations are different and

5:34

I think the research probably

5:36

applies slightly differently to individual

5:38

families, younger children, teenagers, but

5:40

at the same time understanding

5:42

what it says and what

5:44

actually is successful in the

5:46

majority of times I've found

5:48

to be helpful for myself

5:50

and then hopefully it's helpful

5:52

to other parents as well.

5:54

So I'd love to explore

5:56

some of the main messages

5:58

that you wanted to communicate

6:00

in your affairs book which

6:02

toddlerhood to preteen is my

6:04

understanding. What are the main

6:06

misconceptions having reviewed the evidence

6:08

yourself what are some of

6:10

the main misconceptions people have

6:13

about parenting? I think Probably

6:15

the most important one is

6:17

that there is one right

6:19

way to approach it and

6:21

I think the research really

6:23

makes clear that that's not

6:26

the case and that different

6:28

situations different approaches work for

6:30

different families at different times

6:32

what works at one moment.

6:34

might not work in six

6:36

months time when everything's changed,

6:38

but actually having a list

6:40

of evidence-based ideas can then

6:42

be helpful to meet those

6:44

different challenges head-on. I think

6:46

there has been over the

6:48

last 20 years or so

6:50

there's been a lot of

6:52

faddishness with parenting, so it's

6:54

moved very much from one

6:56

kind of mainstream approach to

6:59

the next, and quite often

7:01

they contradict each other. and

7:03

I think there are useful

7:05

elements that you can take

7:07

out of each one, but

7:09

there's a kind of thread

7:11

that runs through all of

7:13

it, which is that actually

7:15

parents having their own well-being

7:17

and needs looked after and

7:19

also having confidence in their

7:21

own abilities and decisions and

7:23

having that kind of sense

7:25

of authority and knowledge is

7:27

probably going to be the

7:30

most important thing. So it's

7:32

not actually about having a

7:34

written list of instructions for

7:36

dealing with younger children and

7:38

teenagers. It's about having enough

7:40

kind of knowledge, confidence and

7:42

authority to be able to

7:44

make effective decisions and also

7:46

to ensure that if parents

7:48

are kind of getting their

7:50

own health needs met and

7:52

they've got time whether that's

7:54

if they're kind of struggling

7:56

for time with or they

7:58

don't have a partner who

8:00

can help them out, then

8:03

perhaps calling on friends. Or

8:05

I know there's a lot

8:07

of controversy over screen time,

8:09

but I think sometimes screen

8:11

time can be quite useful

8:13

for parents just to claw

8:15

back a little bit of

8:17

time to be able to

8:19

get on top of things

8:21

themselves because one of the

8:23

biggest predictors of good outcomes

8:25

for children is parents' own

8:27

mental health and other needs

8:29

being looked after. So

8:32

it's a bit more of a

8:34

parent-centric view than you might normally

8:37

find. And do you think that

8:39

perhaps in the 90s and the

8:41

2000s it was a bit too

8:44

much of a child-centric view that

8:46

we were taking? I think it

8:48

still is. I think there is

8:50

an awful lot of pressure on

8:53

parents to lead with their children

8:55

in terms of the kind of

8:57

prevailing zeitgeist is that children know

9:00

exactly who they are, what they

9:02

need, they're able to kind of

9:04

dictate what their parents should be

9:06

doing around them, this is leading

9:09

to a whole. cohorts of parents

9:11

who are run quite ragged because

9:13

they are ferrying their children to

9:16

all of these different events. They

9:18

are kind of cooking exactly what

9:20

their children would like to eat

9:22

and I'm sure this is very

9:25

very lovely for the children involved

9:27

in the short term, maybe in

9:29

the medium to long term it's

9:32

not necessarily creating an environment that

9:34

allows them to build resilience and

9:36

to understand that actually the world

9:39

isn't perfectly structured around them because

9:41

I think one of the potential

9:43

knock-on effects when you get into

9:45

adolescence and then early adulthood is

9:48

if the world has been perfectly

9:50

created around you you suddenly realize

9:52

that actually that doesn't last and

9:55

that can be quite a hard

9:57

lesson to have. to learn if

9:59

you don't have the early practice

10:01

and it's really really hard for

10:04

parents as well. I don't think

10:06

anyone has the resources to be

10:08

able to provide that level of

10:11

kind of wrap around care for

10:13

a child in a way that

10:15

is sustainable for them and sustainable

10:17

for the family. So I think

10:20

that's still very much going on

10:22

and I think that's something that

10:24

I would probably challenge. Yeah,

10:27

so I guess picking up on

10:29

what you're saying, the challenge of

10:31

parenting as I see it, and

10:34

I don't have children, just full

10:36

disclosure, but the challenge of parenting

10:38

as I see it, particularly from

10:40

my psychotherapy experience, is you need

10:42

to strike this balance between on

10:44

the one hand providing a protective

10:46

bubble for your child. as they're

10:48

still developing. But then on the

10:50

other hand, slowly introducing them to

10:53

the challenges of the world, to

10:55

the idea that not everything is

10:57

going to go their way, because

10:59

ultimately that's the best preparation for

11:01

adulthood. And it seems to me

11:03

like the younger a child is

11:05

the more they need that protective

11:07

bubble, the older they get, the

11:09

more they need to be exposed

11:11

to those challenges. So if you

11:14

take an infant, for example, a

11:16

newborn, you're in full protective mode

11:18

at that stage of their lives.

11:20

You're basically just responding to their

11:22

needs as and when they come

11:24

up. And then as the child

11:26

gets older, I suppose the challenge

11:28

for the parent is to slowly

11:30

let go of providing that protection.

11:33

And I suppose a lot of

11:35

parents really identify with being that

11:37

protector and almost their child's saviour

11:39

in some sense. and the parent

11:41

has to let go of that

11:43

and slowly start to let them

11:45

deal with their own problems which

11:47

I'm sure can be mentally challenging

11:49

for a lot of parents. Definitely

11:51

but I think it's it's about

11:54

having the warmth to go alongside

11:56

it so if you've got your

11:58

edges in the form of boundaries

12:00

so you're saying to your child

12:02

okay I'm always going to be

12:04

your safe haven and the person

12:06

that you can talk to and

12:08

you can rely on to meet

12:10

all of your kind of basic

12:13

needs but that doesn't necessarily mean

12:15

that I meet everything that you

12:17

want alongside it so I think

12:19

it's probably quite important to differentiate

12:21

between needs and wants and obviously

12:23

you would like to be able

12:25

a lot of the time to

12:27

give the child what they want

12:29

as well as what they need

12:31

but I'm not sure in every

12:34

situation that's that's important but if

12:36

you meet that with warmth I

12:38

think at all ages that is

12:40

the kind of perfect, that's the

12:42

sweet spot where you're not going

12:44

to be creating that kind of

12:46

harsh authoritarian environment that can also

12:48

create its own problems over the

12:50

longer term. So having warmth with

12:53

boundaries which is known in the

12:55

research literature as authoritative parenting, which

12:57

I'm sure most of your listeners

12:59

will be familiar with that seems

13:01

to be the most successful approach

13:03

in terms of long-term outcomes and

13:05

it kind of contrasts with permissive

13:07

parenting which would be if you

13:09

don't have the you've got the

13:11

warmth but you don't have the

13:14

boundaries authoritarian parenting which is where

13:16

you don't where you have boundaries

13:18

but you don't have a warmth.

13:20

and then in probably the least

13:22

favourable climate would be where you

13:24

don't have boundaries and you don't

13:26

have warmth so you don't have

13:28

any kind of real structure around

13:30

the child. And what you're trying

13:33

to build up is that structure

13:35

but alongside warmth, love, affection, care

13:37

so that the child knows that

13:39

they are no matter what they

13:41

do. and their behavior, you might

13:43

kind of respond to their behavior

13:45

in an appropriate way. For example,

13:47

if they're hitting a sibling, you

13:49

might remove them from the room

13:51

to make sure that the hitting

13:54

doesn't continue, but your child is

13:56

aware that you will still love

13:58

them regardless of their behavior. So

14:00

you're not making your love contingent.

14:02

you are making your response to

14:04

their behaviour contingent and making sure

14:06

that the world isn't entirely structured

14:08

around their desires. Yeah, those

14:11

are some interesting distinctions. I think

14:13

it's really important for people to

14:15

understand that there's at least, you

14:17

know, two levels that we're communicating

14:19

at. There's the content, the information,

14:21

the logic of what we're communicating,

14:23

and the emotional tone. And you

14:26

can, those two can contradict. I

14:28

think a lot of people feel

14:30

they need to be confident with

14:32

each other, but actually you can

14:34

tell someone. Listen. I disapprove of

14:36

this specific behavior that you're doing

14:38

right now, but underneath that there's

14:40

still a bedrock of unconditional love,

14:43

and I think it's really useful

14:45

for parents to know that they

14:47

can do that. Yeah, definitely. And

14:49

I think that might be returning

14:51

to what we were talking about

14:53

a little bit earlier. I think

14:55

that might be slightly what's been

14:58

lost in the kind of expert

15:00

parenting narratives of the last kind

15:02

of 15, 20 years or so

15:04

that actually it is possible to

15:06

respond to your child and you're

15:08

not going to damage them forever

15:10

if you don't give them everything

15:12

that they're seeking. necessarily. In saying

15:15

that, I'm not saying that you

15:17

should kind of never give them

15:19

what you want, what they want.

15:21

That's absolutely not what I'm saying.

15:23

I'm just saying that kind of

15:25

sometimes there will be situations in

15:27

which the needs of other members

15:30

of the family need to be

15:32

taken into consideration or where it's

15:34

just not something that is kind

15:36

of possible to give them they

15:38

want to, I don't know, eat

15:40

ice cream for five hours on

15:42

Friday night and then have a

15:44

kind of all night bouncing party

15:47

when actually people need to go

15:49

to sleep and be rested for

15:51

Saturday and whatever. So I think

15:53

there are lots of different factors

15:55

taken to a camp but it's

15:57

okay to say no if it's

15:59

being done with love and warmth.

16:02

Yes and I think that this

16:04

distinction between needs and wants is

16:06

so important because obviously there are

16:08

many of us in the UK

16:10

who are still living in quite

16:12

deprived situations, but there are also

16:14

many of us who live in

16:16

a world of wants where our

16:19

needs are pretty guaranteed. and so

16:21

many children are being raised almost

16:23

to see their wants as needs

16:25

like my want is a need

16:27

but they don't even understand that

16:29

they're being raised in a world

16:31

of luxury that's basically unprecedented. Yeah

16:34

and there's also something about learning

16:36

how to deal with small levels

16:38

of stress. that's quite important for

16:40

long-term development as well. So in

16:42

order to build resilience you have

16:44

to have experience of being able

16:46

to deal with slightly unfavorable conditions

16:48

on the way and then what

16:51

you learn from one tricky situation,

16:53

you can then apply to other

16:55

situations going forward and then that

16:57

acts as a kind of point

16:59

of growth and it reassures you

17:01

that you can deal with those

17:03

situations going forward. And if you

17:06

have a kind of perfectly untrammeled

17:08

path with no obstacles in the

17:10

way they're all removed by your

17:12

parents, then you don't ever get

17:14

those points of healthy stress that

17:16

then help you to be able

17:18

to deal with other moments because

17:20

we all deal with difficult situations

17:23

every single day, but you need

17:25

practice at doing that and you

17:27

need practice within a kind of

17:29

safe structured environment, otherwise it can

17:31

feel very, very overwhelming if you

17:33

end up as a young adult

17:35

in situations where you've never really

17:38

practiced the skills of being able

17:40

to apply. what you've learned from

17:42

other situations to new challenges. And

17:44

having had that support supportive or

17:46

stress through supported environments I think

17:48

can be quite useful in resilience

17:50

building. So in your work would

17:52

you have come across the research

17:55

of someone like Jonathan Hyatt who

17:57

talks a lot about this, talks

17:59

about the of

18:01

allowing your child or your

18:03

children to confront stress quite

18:05

forth rightly so that they

18:07

can develop these new capacities?

18:09

Yeah very much so and

18:11

he talks about the he

18:14

talks about safetyism as a

18:16

big theme which is the

18:18

idea that children need wrapping

18:20

in cotton wool and protecting

18:22

at all costs from difficult

18:24

experiences and his analogy that

18:26

he uses, which I think

18:28

is quite a nice one,

18:30

is that he talks about

18:32

a biosphere that was used,

18:35

I think it was in

18:37

the 1980s, and it was

18:39

this experiment they were trying

18:41

to develop this perfect environment

18:43

where it would be a

18:45

self-sustaining area where trees would

18:47

then provide the oxygen for

18:49

humans to be able to

18:51

coexist. And they grew a

18:54

whole load of trees in

18:56

the biosphere that all fell

18:58

over when they reached adulthood

19:00

because they had never experienced

19:02

as a wind, so they

19:04

hadn't developed the root structures

19:06

that allowed them to kind

19:08

of become healthy adult trees.

19:10

And that's one of the

19:12

analogies that he uses. in

19:15

his book The Anxious Generation.

19:17

And he also talks about

19:19

the importance of helping children

19:21

to develop independence and to

19:23

have to take risks and

19:25

to spend time away from

19:27

adults, not being overseen by

19:29

adults in a way that

19:31

then allows them to negotiate

19:33

with other children to be

19:36

able to get bored. And

19:38

I think all of that

19:40

stuff's really good. I'm not

19:42

sure I don't entirely agree

19:44

with his analysis about screens

19:46

and social media, but I

19:48

think where all of the

19:50

research that he summarises on

19:52

kind of the importance of

19:55

independence and risk and what

19:57

he terms -fragility I

19:59

think is

20:01

really solid. really How

20:03

do you think we got to

20:05

this point of to this point probably

20:07

in the 90s, in the early

20:09

2000s, late 2000s, we're probably early 2000s, How

20:12

did we get to that point? probably

20:14

peaked, how a very big

20:16

question point? I think a very

20:18

big of it

20:20

was about the narratives

20:22

of stranger danger that

20:24

were played up during

20:26

the 1970s, the 1980s.

20:29

there's, when you get you get

20:31

thing, there's over one thing

20:33

there's almost a kind

20:35

of equally strong counter

20:37

-reaction in the other

20:39

direction And actually if you

20:42

look at the evidence

20:44

on risk, risk, the

20:46

risk from strangers is absolutely minimal

20:48

and the risk of not

20:50

letting children have any to

20:53

kind of of the park themselves or

20:56

with friends or to travel

20:58

into town at a relatively young

21:00

age, those young age, the of not

21:02

letting your child do that seem

21:04

of seem to the the dangers.

21:06

So I think that that narrative

21:08

probably had something to do

21:10

with it. I think to do

21:12

with it. I think and this is

21:14

probably slightly more theoretical, but

21:16

I think in universities in

21:18

rise of kind of of

21:20

kind of and the

21:22

idea that everything and the

21:24

idea that everything is done on everything is

21:27

defined on on the basis

21:29

of perception and personal

21:31

experience. potentially

21:34

has something to do with

21:36

it as well, because as that

21:38

point, everyone becomes the expert

21:40

on their own expert on their own

21:42

and development, including in that.

21:45

in that children. So

21:47

if children are the experts,

21:49

then adults have to

21:51

listen to them to have

21:53

to kind of create this

21:55

perfect environment that allows

21:57

them to flourish into adults

21:59

with out perhaps realizing

22:02

what the what

22:04

the research says

22:07

about long-term development

22:09

mental health resilience

22:12

and and that

22:14

actually having this

22:17

these perfectly Unchallenged

22:20

childhoods can create adults that haven't

22:22

had the experiences that then allow

22:24

them to thrive later. So it

22:27

might be something slightly more short-termist

22:29

as well and maybe not connecting

22:31

all of those different pieces. What

22:34

do you think? Have you? In

22:36

turn, I think that there's many

22:39

things. I think If I had

22:41

to speculate on how we got

22:43

to the point of safetyism, we

22:46

do, human beings do have a

22:48

problem holding conflicting ideas in their

22:50

heads. So this conflicting idea, what's

22:53

more important? Is it safety or

22:55

is it exposing a child to

22:57

challenge? And as we've discussed, you

23:00

know, it's this fine tension of

23:02

both. you always need to be

23:04

calibrating it according to the situation

23:07

and being able to figure that

23:09

out on a moment to moment

23:11

basis is very difficult and very

23:14

cognitively expensive and most people might

23:16

never it might never even occur

23:18

to them that's the thing to

23:21

do. So there's that. I think

23:23

talking about the stranger danger narrative

23:26

you mentioned is very interesting and

23:28

I think people tend to react

23:30

much more to potentially catastrophic rare

23:33

risks than to low-grade constant risk.

23:35

So the risk of a stranger

23:37

doing something to your child is

23:40

low, but it's catastrophic if it

23:42

happens. whereas the sort of constant

23:44

low-grade risk of your child not

23:47

getting the exposure to the challenge

23:49

that they need, I think that's

23:51

a lot less scary to us

23:54

and a lot less apparent as

23:56

a real threat. I think what

23:58

you said about... and

24:01

post-structuralism is really interesting because I

24:03

suppose those philosophical ideas challenge authority

24:06

and expertise per se, they challenge

24:08

authority in our society and our

24:11

institutions. So I've never thought about

24:13

it along the lines that you

24:15

mentioned, but I guess it makes

24:18

sense that such philosophical

24:20

positions would also degrade or be

24:22

skeptical of the parental authority that

24:25

a parent might know better than

24:27

a child. And finally enough, it

24:29

does seem like we've gotten to

24:31

that point that for a parent

24:33

to assume that they know best

24:36

for their child seems to be

24:38

taboo in some circles and it's

24:40

strange that we got to that

24:42

place. And it does

24:45

seem to be, it's almost like

24:47

a pendulum swing, so you move

24:49

from one fad and then in

24:51

order to counter to wait it,

24:53

it swings far too far in

24:56

the other direction and we want

24:58

that kind of middle. path ideally

25:00

that draws in the two sides.

25:02

So obviously you don't want your

25:04

child entirely exposed to risk and

25:06

you don't want to remove those

25:09

kind of warm protective structures from

25:11

around them. But the risk is

25:13

that we've moved so far in

25:15

the direction of safetyism and evidence

25:17

is emerging all the time of

25:20

the impacts of this, that the

25:22

pendulum then swings back again too

25:24

far in the other direction. So

25:26

I think it would be really

25:28

good if going forward we could,

25:31

if the public narrative can stay

25:33

in the nuanced shades of grey

25:35

that draw all of these different

25:37

factors in together, I think that

25:39

would be quite positive because I

25:42

think it everything, all of the

25:44

parenting fans have really swung from

25:46

one extreme to another and we're

25:48

in quite a kind of far

25:50

point of one extreme at the

25:52

moment and I think it will

25:55

swing back at one point but

25:57

it would be good if it

25:59

stays somewhere moderate rather than going

26:01

to another. other extreme. And before

26:03

we talk about your second book,

26:06

which is upcoming, I'm curious, what's

26:08

the feedback been to your first

26:10

book and have you received any

26:12

pushback to some of the ideas

26:14

that you outlined in that book?

26:17

Very. little actually. I'm expecting more

26:19

pushback with the second book because

26:21

I cover gender identity and I'm

26:23

sure that that will create pushback

26:25

as it always does in that

26:28

area. But no, I think the

26:30

first book because it's actually, I'm

26:32

not coming forward and saying I

26:34

have a particular set of beliefs.

26:36

Instead, I'm saying this is what

26:39

the evidence says. So I think

26:41

there's actually relatively little that can

26:43

be challenged with that. I think

26:45

what potentially actually one area of

26:47

challenge links back to this point

26:49

about authority. because if you have

26:52

too much in the way of

26:54

parenting books or people talking about

26:56

what parents should be doing then

26:58

you are challenging the idea of

27:00

parental authority and that actually parents

27:03

know best for what's going to

27:05

be best for their own families

27:07

and what's going to work for

27:09

them and for their children and

27:11

having too much in the way

27:14

of, yes, texts, conversations potentially undermines

27:16

that. what I would say and

27:18

challenge to that is that I

27:20

think parents absolutely have that or

27:22

authority but there are some parents

27:25

like me who like to understand

27:27

what the evidence says before they

27:29

start to make decisions about what

27:31

is going to be best for

27:33

their families. Yeah I mean I

27:35

think everyone would agree that parenting

27:38

is an extremely difficult endeavor perhaps

27:40

one of the most difficult endeavor

27:42

you'll embark on in your lifetime.

27:44

and who would say it's a

27:46

bad idea to look up information

27:49

about that about ways people have

27:51

tried it about what the evidence

27:53

says like you wouldn't do anything

27:55

in your life or you would

27:57

never think it's a bad idea

28:00

to start a new project to

28:02

start a new career to try

28:04

and get in shape without reading

28:06

a book about it that can

28:08

maybe outline some useful tips that

28:11

other people have learned so you

28:13

don't have to make the same

28:15

mistakes but I see your point

28:17

that I suppose when it comes

28:19

to very personal decisions like how

28:22

to raise your children it can

28:24

really challenge people's egos, their narratives

28:26

about themselves, that it can really

28:28

challenge notions about how good they

28:30

are as a person. So I

28:32

can see that parents could be

28:35

very easily threatened by this kind

28:37

of thing. Yeah, and I think

28:39

for that reason, I've been all,

28:41

not just for that reason, but

28:43

also because I don't think it's

28:46

the right way to approach things.

28:48

I've been very careful just to

28:50

say this is what the evidence

28:52

says. It's not going to work

28:54

this way for everyone and here's

28:57

what parents should do, because I

28:59

don't think there is one, as

29:01

I was saying earlier, I don't

29:03

think there's one set of ideas

29:05

that parents should be doing without

29:08

consideration of how that works at

29:10

an individual level and different ideas

29:12

will work for different situations. So

29:14

I've just kind of set out

29:16

suggestions really rather than recommendations. And

29:18

before we move on to the

29:21

second book, I'm really curious, were

29:23

there any studies that you reviewed

29:25

that really surprised you and that

29:27

really opened your eyes to something

29:29

you went previously aware of? One

29:32

thing that surprised me actually was

29:34

about sleep training because when my

29:36

children were young enough that sleep

29:38

training conversations were relevant to me.

29:40

This was quite a long time

29:43

before I started looking at the

29:45

books or at the evidence reviews

29:47

that sat behind them. Gina

29:50

Ford was very fashionable when my

29:52

oldest daughter was very small and

29:54

there was quite a lot of

29:57

pushback to what she was saying

29:59

in, in, so her recommendation was

30:01

that you minute every single, sorry,

30:03

you diorize every single minute of

30:06

a baby's life throughout the day

30:08

and you sleep train them for

30:10

a certain, and you, they sleep

30:12

for a certain amount of time

30:15

and it's down to the exact

30:17

minute. I do not think that

30:19

that is a successful way of

30:21

approaching things, but I think that

30:24

had the pushback to what she

30:26

was suggesting had suggested to me

30:28

that sleep training might be damaging

30:31

over the medium term because in

30:33

the short term it raises cortisol

30:35

levels in babies. And then actually

30:37

if you look at the, what

30:40

the evidence says, it looks as

30:42

though it has, it's successful, it's

30:44

a successful strategy in the short

30:46

term, although not dramatically so. So

30:49

I think one of the studies

30:51

showed something like it gets children

30:53

to sleep an extra nine minutes

30:55

a night or something, so you

30:58

may decide if it's a pain

31:00

of going through sleep training isn't

31:02

worth it. but there have been

31:04

a few longitudinal studies which where

31:07

they look at attachments to the

31:09

parents but also kind of long

31:11

term mental health compare a group

31:13

of children who've been sleep trained

31:16

with a group of children that

31:18

haven't been sleep trained in see

31:20

if there are any differences to

31:22

try to test whether there are

31:25

long-term negative effects and none that

31:27

I have seen in the evidence

31:29

reviews that I've looked at have

31:31

been found. So it looks as

31:34

though sleep training, even though it

31:36

might lead to kind of short-term

31:38

spikes in courses or doesn't seem

31:40

to have long-term negative effects. But

31:43

as I said, the improvements aren't

31:45

dramatic, so parents may decide it's

31:47

not quite worth it. So sleep

31:49

training may not be worth it

31:52

and are there any other approaches

31:54

to sleep with their child that

31:56

maybe parents could take into consideration?

31:58

Routines seem to be the most

32:01

one of the most important things

32:03

so just having a nighttime routine

32:05

that is the same every night

32:08

even if it's really boring. It's

32:10

just got the same order whether

32:12

that's a kind of glass of

32:14

milk and a story and brushing

32:17

teeth or maybe some singing

32:19

together or whatever it is that works

32:21

with the family, but it's just it's

32:23

about the steps that then primes the

32:25

children to know that it's time to

32:27

go to bed and also avoiding being

32:29

in the rooms with them as well

32:31

as they're falling asleep if it's possible

32:34

to do so. So it seems to

32:36

be that children can lose about an

32:38

hour's sleep, if their parents are in

32:40

the room with them as they're falling

32:42

asleep. I mean,

32:44

nighttime routine is what I prescribe

32:46

to adults to get to sleep,

32:48

because I just talk to adults,

32:50

I have problems sleeping all the

32:52

time, and sleep is just, it's

32:55

a rhythm, it's a routine that

32:57

you need to get into, I

32:59

need to establish cues, that will

33:01

get to your body and mind

33:03

to fall asleep, and obviously there

33:06

are intuitive ones, like having dim

33:08

a light, doing something relaxing rather

33:10

than stimulating, so I'm good to

33:12

see that it. Not having screens,

33:14

yeah, exactly. Yeah, and there's one

33:16

of the studies we're saying that

33:19

actually even even if they're not

33:21

used just having screens in the

33:23

bedroom can affect sleep, whether that's

33:25

just because children are aware that

33:27

they're there, but keeping screens downstairs,

33:29

if you have an upstairs or

33:32

if you're on the same level,

33:34

just making sure that they're kept

33:36

out of sleeping areas seems to

33:38

be good for sleep as well.

33:40

Great and now moving on to

33:42

your second book which is focused

33:45

on adolescence and did you say

33:47

it's coming out next month? Yes

33:49

it's coming out on the 30th

33:51

of January. And similarly was this

33:53

a book that you needed to

33:56

write to deal with your own

33:58

challenges which she were facing? Yes

34:00

very much so. I did the

34:02

research. when one

34:04

of my daughters was already

34:06

a teenager and the other

34:08

one was kind of moving

34:10

rapidly towards being a teenager

34:12

and I think it gave

34:14

me a sense of security

34:16

to know what the evidence

34:18

actually says and also to

34:21

understand when I need to

34:23

worry as well. So I

34:25

think a lot of the

34:27

time teenage, a lot of

34:29

what people might see as

34:31

being alarming teenage behavior is

34:33

actually very normal and understanding

34:35

what is normal and where

34:37

it becomes abnormal is very

34:39

useful. It was very useful

34:41

for me as a parent

34:43

and I hope it might

34:45

be for others as well.

34:47

So the kind of natural

34:49

separation of children from their

34:51

parents and what that means

34:53

in terms of I

34:56

don't know, teenagers going up to

34:58

their bedrooms and not really wanting

35:00

to chat and share information in

35:02

the same way that they're used

35:04

to, that could feel very personal

35:06

or if you see other parents

35:08

you've still got an incredibly close

35:10

relationship with their children it might

35:13

make you think there's so something's

35:15

wrong. there are other things that

35:17

you could be doing that you're

35:19

not, but actually if you look

35:21

at the evidence that is entirely

35:23

normal, it's entirely natural, and understanding

35:25

that is is helpful, as is

35:27

I think getting an understanding of

35:29

risk and where it's appropriate to

35:31

take risks, what risks are normal

35:33

to take, and where parents need

35:35

to start worrying as well, and

35:37

where perhaps some kind of tighter

35:40

boundaries need to be put down.

35:42

Yeah, so I guess what

35:44

I would want people to understand

35:47

the most about adolescence would be

35:49

it's a stage of life

35:51

where people are forming their

35:53

own identities and as you implied,

35:56

they're learning to distinguish themselves from

35:58

their family. And so, is

36:01

a part of that. So when

36:03

parents complain about their child's rebelliousness

36:06

as though it's a bug, I

36:08

suppose what they need to understand,

36:10

as you're saying, there's actually it's

36:13

a feature, it's a mandatory part

36:15

of becoming a teenager and getting

36:17

that, it's that bridge to adulthood,

36:20

and actually you wouldn't want a

36:22

teenager who's not rebellious at all.

36:24

Yeah, I think if you've got

36:27

a compliant teenager who wants to

36:29

spend all their time in your

36:31

company, perhaps things aren't quite right

36:33

either. Did you, in your research

36:36

at all, did you have, did

36:38

you have a look at psychoanalytic

36:40

writings like Freud and people along

36:43

those lines? Because they had a

36:45

lot to say about what it's

36:47

like for a teenager to grow

36:50

up and the dangers of excessive

36:52

attachment and the edible... either for

36:54

mother and things like that. Yeah

36:57

and actually so there's quite a

36:59

nice quote from Anna Freud that

37:01

I've included in the book and

37:04

she describes adolescence and what the

37:06

kind of the downsides and the

37:08

upsides and the light and the

37:11

darker and actually one of the

37:13

amazing things about the quote I

37:15

think she wrote it in the

37:18

1930s and it's almost perfect for

37:20

today. So there's this kind of

37:22

really lovely mirroring from something that

37:25

was written almost 100 years ago

37:27

and obviously our knowledge and understanding

37:29

has moved on quite considerably from

37:32

that time but at the same

37:34

time I think there's quite a

37:36

lot that we can still learn.

37:38

I've got it here. Would you

37:41

like me to read it? Yeah.

37:43

Adolescence are excessively egoistic regarding themselves

37:45

as the centre of their universe

37:48

and the sole object of interest,

37:50

and yet at no time in

37:52

later life are they capable of

37:55

so much self-sacrifice and devotion. They

37:57

form the most passionate love relations

37:59

only to break them off as

38:02

abruptly as they began them. On

38:04

the one hand, they throw themselves

38:06

enthusiastically into the life of the

38:09

community, and on the other hand

38:11

they have an overpassicic longing for

38:13

solitude. They're selfish and materially minded

38:16

and at the same time full

38:18

of lofty idealism. At times their

38:20

behaviour to other people is rough

38:23

and inconsiderate, yet they themselves are

38:25

extremely touchy. Their moods fear between

38:27

light-hearted optimism and the blackest pessimism,

38:30

sometimes that they will work with

38:32

indefatigable enthusiasm and at other times

38:34

they are sluggish and apathetic. So

38:36

I think it's maybe a slightly

38:39

more negative lens than I would

38:41

place on teenagers, but I think

38:43

there's a lot in there that

38:46

I recognize. I think one of

38:48

the other points that I drew

38:50

out in that particular section is

38:53

that it risks, seeing teenagers as

38:55

a uniform group and obviously they're

38:57

all kind of complete individuals and

39:00

nobody is going to follow that

39:02

exact pathway, but at the same

39:04

time I think there's quite a

39:07

lot that parents might recognise even

39:09

if they don't recognise the whole

39:11

quote of their own children. Okay,

39:14

so we've established that adolescence need

39:16

to be rebellious, it's part of

39:18

the process. As a parent, how

39:21

should one orient themselves towards that

39:23

rebelliousness? Should they be indifferent? Should

39:25

they be encouraging? Are there any

39:28

general approaches which are advised? I

39:30

think it very much depends on

39:32

what the rebellion is and I

39:35

think that requires developing an understanding

39:37

of risk and where risks become

39:39

too great. I think in terms

39:41

of ideas, encouraging rebellion of ideas

39:44

is always for the good. So

39:46

what you ideally want is your

39:48

child not to be seeing the

39:51

world in the same way as

39:53

you do. And if they have

39:55

a, if they take a different

39:58

political lens or they view kind

40:00

of issues where, that cause social

40:02

fault lines in society in a

40:05

way from you. I think that's

40:07

really positive. Shows that they're developing

40:09

their own minds. It means that

40:12

you can have interesting conversations and

40:14

debates and I don't think I

40:16

don't think there's anything to be

40:19

gained from trying to shift a

40:21

child's point of view towards your

40:23

own, although I think it's important

40:26

to express your own point of

40:28

view, why you believe what you

40:30

do and that actually it's great

40:33

if people have different perspectives and

40:35

what that gives to society. I

40:37

suppose where rebellion might get more

40:39

worrying as if you're moving into

40:42

the area of drink, drugs, sex,

40:44

risks that might have health short

40:46

term or longer term health consequences.

40:49

And at that point, I mean,

40:51

I've got a few ideas in

40:53

the chapter about how those can

40:56

be kind of discussed and managed,

40:58

but I think a lot of

41:00

it is about keeping lines of

41:03

dialogue going. So it's about having

41:05

that warmth. and not coming down

41:07

if a teenager takes risks that

41:10

in your opinion go too far,

41:12

not making the consequences so great

41:14

that they're not going to tell

41:17

you if they get into a

41:19

tricky situation in future. So you

41:21

want to make sure that the

41:24

lines of dialogue are kept open,

41:26

that a teenager knows that you

41:28

will be there to help them

41:31

pick up pieces if they get

41:33

into trouble. There's somebody called Fiona

41:35

Margo Spabs, I think she's called,

41:38

who she was a parent whose

41:40

child had a drug overdose and

41:42

I've quoted from her a little

41:44

bit in the chapter on risk

41:47

as well. So her recommendation based

41:49

on quite a lot of work

41:51

that she's with parents and with

41:54

teenagers is for example if a

41:56

teenager goes to a festival to

41:58

be really up front about what

42:01

the risks are of taking drugs

42:03

but also what to do if

42:05

you get into a difficult situation

42:08

so I think quite a lot

42:10

of festivals now have drug testing

42:12

tense so and it might be

42:15

that the conversation happens this is

42:17

you frame it along the lines

42:19

of this is what I would

42:22

recommend you do if one of

42:24

your friends gets into a difficult

42:26

situation. So you're not saying to

42:29

your child that you're expecting them

42:31

to do it because even setting

42:33

up that expectation might make it

42:36

more likely that they do something.

42:38

But if your friend does something

42:40

and gets into this situation, these

42:42

are the adults that you need

42:45

to get in touch with, these

42:47

are the danger signs. This is

42:49

who you call, this is what

42:52

you do. So you're kind of

42:54

you're giving them a framework to

42:56

work within that's realistic

42:59

but is not setting them up

43:01

to believe that you're going to

43:03

expect that they take those risks

43:05

necessarily themselves but they still know

43:07

what to do and also probably

43:10

keeping that expectation in your own

43:12

head that even if it does

43:14

end up being some of their

43:16

friends that are at risk, your

43:18

child will probably be at risk

43:21

as well because teenagers tend to

43:23

do things together. It's not necessarily

43:25

going to be that your child

43:27

is the angel, which I think

43:29

is sometimes what parents can imagine,

43:32

not necessarily accurately. And we'll talk

43:34

about that a bit later on

43:36

as well, but specifically with alcohol,

43:38

I'm really curious, is there any

43:40

evidence that introducing your child rather

43:43

your teenager to alcohol in a

43:45

small way in the home is

43:47

useful. Letting them have half a

43:49

glass of wine when there is

43:51

17 say which I believe is

43:54

legal in the UK. Is there

43:56

any evidence that's that's useful

43:58

thing to do

44:00

for for kids? This is

44:02

one of the of of research where

44:04

it goes against what my instinct

44:06

would be, and I'm not particularly

44:08

keen on the findings. So

44:11

my instinct would be that it's much better

44:13

for teenagers to

44:15

try alcohol for small

44:17

safe -contained environment at

44:19

home, what the research at

44:21

home. What the research says is

44:23

that if parents Either model model

44:26

drinking themselves or

44:28

they make it clear to their teenagers

44:31

it clear to their teenagers that they believe

44:33

it's okay by offering them small quantities. Those

44:35

teenagers are much more likely

44:37

to drink to to a more

44:39

excessive level later. So the So

44:42

the evidence says not a

44:44

good idea but your own intuition.

44:46

intuition, maybe it could be useful. Yeah,

44:48

I mean I mean, I'm much more

44:50

likely to go with what the research

44:52

says than what my own intuition

44:54

said before. go against what I it does go

44:56

against what I would have done. I

44:58

think. And then And then when it

45:00

comes to drugs I'm sure many

45:03

parents have had their own transgressions

45:05

with using substances when they

45:07

were young. were young and perhaps they're

45:09

terrified of of kids going down

45:11

the same path. path, but is is there

45:13

any evidence that might support? support a

45:16

parent sharing some personal stories from their

45:18

own youth to say, you know I

45:20

know, I when I was young

45:22

or I when I was and the I did this that

45:24

and the other and there were negative is

45:26

there any evidence to support that? that

45:29

So interestingly, I haven't seen

45:31

any research papers on this,

45:33

but I have spoken to

45:35

a clinical psychologist who's been

45:37

looking into this with her

45:39

own her own of patient cohort. and

45:41

her her view is, very and

45:44

she works very closely with

45:46

both... parents and teenagers and her her

45:48

view on it is is

45:50

that you keep any stories away

45:52

from the personal so so no

45:54

matter what your own own is. with

45:57

drugs in the past,

45:59

past. any annotates. be about a

46:01

kind of different distant friend or

46:03

cousin, not about your own because

46:06

at that point you're modelling a

46:08

behaviour and perhaps creating an expectation

46:10

that your child will do similarly

46:12

in future. And they probably will

46:15

anyway at some point, but at

46:17

the same time. you want to

46:19

push that point maybe into the

46:22

future so that they're not too

46:24

young and so that if they

46:26

do get to that point their

46:29

brains are as fully developed as

46:31

it's possible for them to be

46:33

because I think early interference with

46:36

developing brains with substances that shouldn't

46:38

necessarily be in the body can

46:40

be more damaging than when the

46:42

brain is further on in its

46:45

development as it will be kind

46:47

of if they're trying. substances when

46:49

they're at university for example as

46:52

opposed to when they're still at

46:54

school. One thing I want to

46:56

ask about obviously a lot of

46:59

what's happening in adolescence is a

47:01

person is starting to choose their

47:03

life path, what they might study

47:06

in detail at 6th form, at

47:08

university, what kind of career they

47:10

might start to forge for themselves.

47:12

A lot of parents seem to

47:15

be very caught up. I mean

47:17

I speak to a lot of

47:19

patients and clients of mine whose

47:22

parents had very rigid expectations of

47:24

them like they should be a

47:26

lawyer or a doctor or an

47:29

engineer or things along those lines.

47:31

How do you think a parent

47:33

should approach their child starting to

47:35

forge their area of study or

47:38

their career? Should it be a

47:40

relatively open process where they figure

47:42

it out for themselves? Do guidelines

47:45

work? How should we approach this?

47:47

I think that depends very much

47:49

on family culture. So I think

47:52

in some families there will be

47:54

a culture of academic and professional

47:56

expectation and that's fine in other

47:59

families it will really work for

48:01

the teen kind of lead the

48:03

process perhaps with some gentle guidance

48:05

from their parents in the background.

48:08

I think probably what parents need

48:10

to be most mindful of is

48:12

not letting their child cut off

48:15

potential pathways that they might later

48:17

on decide would have been useful.

48:19

So, for example, with A-level choices,

48:22

just thinking a little bit further

48:24

down the line, is that then

48:26

going to prevent them studying something

48:28

when they're 18, that they've spoken

48:31

the past that they might want

48:33

to do, for example. if they

48:35

wanted to study a social science

48:38

at university, are there particular A

48:40

levels that they would need to

48:42

study in order to do it.

48:45

Natural science, you're almost certainly going

48:47

to have to study at least

48:49

two natural sciences at university. So

48:52

I think the boring answer is

48:54

that it's down to personal choice,

48:56

kind of individual family circumstances, culture,

48:58

and also I think what the

49:01

teenagers are like themselves. I think

49:03

some will... really appreciate having parental

49:05

involvement and others will be quite

49:08

keen if their parents could keep

49:10

a great distance from what they're

49:12

going to be choosing to do

49:15

when they get there. Yeah, I

49:17

think everything you're saying makes sense,

49:19

helping them think a bit more

49:22

long-term. and to see a bit

49:24

further down the line I think

49:26

that could be really useful. I

49:28

want to throw in my own

49:31

two cents which is one of

49:33

the areas I really like to

49:35

think about is personality and I

49:38

think the best model of personality

49:40

we have is the big five

49:42

model of personality. I would really

49:45

recommend parents familiarize themselves with that

49:47

model. and when they're raising their

49:49

kids just to figure out what

49:51

where roughly does my child lie

49:54

what is their personality because that's

49:56

going to have a huge impact

49:58

on what they're interested in what

50:01

they're most likely to succeed at

50:03

what their talents are but also

50:05

what their weakness and what's going

50:08

to stand out to them as

50:10

preferable in terms of an area

50:12

of study or a career choice.

50:15

It's going to be very hard,

50:17

for example, to get someone who's

50:19

low in trade openness to be

50:21

an artist. Similarly, if someone's very,

50:24

very high in trade openness, they're

50:26

going to have a huge impulse

50:28

to be creative and they're going

50:31

to be quite, they're going to

50:33

have quite difficult lives if they

50:35

have no creative outlet whatsoever. So

50:38

telling them, you can't be an

50:40

artist and you have to be

50:42

an accountant and not even in

50:45

your spare time can you pursue

50:47

art? That's going to be a

50:49

very difficult proposition for them. So

50:51

understanding that. and then whatever they

50:54

happen to lie encouraging some meta

50:56

skills like critical thinking like work

50:58

ethic like consistency which in itself

51:01

those are that is also a

51:03

personality trait but you can train

51:05

that's the such that if for

51:08

example my child wanted to be

51:10

an artist I might say okay

51:12

go ahead but you're gonna work

51:14

really work really hard at it

51:17

be consistent show up for it

51:19

and develop it, you know, like

51:21

your life depends on it. So

51:24

whatever their predisposition is, they can

51:26

at least make the most of

51:28

it. And I think that there

51:31

are other things other than guiding

51:33

choices there are other things that

51:35

parents can do so I think

51:38

your example about critical thinking is

51:40

really really important and I think

51:42

that's one area that perhaps we

51:44

haven't quite got right at the

51:47

moment so there is quite there's

51:49

a common thread of there is

51:51

one way to look at the

51:54

world and actually having challenge to

51:56

that and actually having a multiplicity

51:58

of views is really helpful and

52:01

trying to think through what the

52:03

what other perspectives might be if

52:05

you look at a particular area

52:08

what the counter points might be

52:10

to a particular argument having discussions

52:12

watching interesting programs help open up

52:14

teenagers' minds to other ideas and

52:17

points of view I think can

52:19

be really helpful. There's something as

52:21

well I think about helping teenagers

52:24

who don't necessarily fit within easily

52:26

within the model of the kind

52:28

of, for example, the academic school

52:31

day that requires quite an early

52:33

start time. There are some that

52:35

naturally work quite well later in

52:37

the day and that it might

52:40

not be working for them brilliantly

52:42

at the moment but pointing out

52:44

that there will be lots of

52:47

careers that they can do that

52:49

make the most of their strengths

52:51

and skills and what directs them

52:54

to work well so if they

52:56

work well at night then can

52:58

be a video game coder or

53:01

something that who's working independently, it

53:03

doesn't, you don't necessarily any more

53:05

have to fit within the very

53:07

strict edges of a nine to

53:10

five job and helping them to

53:12

realize those. And I think another

53:14

thing that's quite important is steering

53:17

teenagers if possible towards part-time jobs.

53:19

and it seems to be in

53:21

the research, there's a sweet spot

53:24

between not working more than about

53:26

20 hours a week, ideally probably

53:28

quite a lot less than that,

53:30

so it doesn't interfere with studies,

53:33

but at the same time having

53:35

jobs can really help teenagers to

53:37

practice on those skills and it'll

53:40

be helpful for them when they're

53:42

making academic or later career choices

53:44

as well. Yeah, that makes a

53:47

lot of sense. I'd like to

53:49

talk a bit about the problem

53:51

of social contagion and you alluded

53:54

briefly to the problem of gender

53:56

identity which I suspect is wrapped

53:58

up in social contagion. For people

54:00

who don't know what is this

54:03

issue of social contagion and what

54:05

are the implications of it? Social

54:07

contagion is where you have either

54:10

or physical health symptoms that are

54:12

transmitted not through a kind of

54:14

organic basis so that it's not

54:17

being transmitted through a virus or

54:19

a bacteria but it's being transmitted

54:21

through interpersonal connections. And actually something

54:24

that's shifted over the last few

54:26

years is that you're getting social

54:28

contagions that are happening online. So

54:30

traditionally social contagion only ever happened

54:33

through face-to-face contact and it would

54:35

be There are quite a lot

54:37

of early ones that people might

54:40

be familiar with. So the kind

54:42

of idea about Victorian hysteria, there

54:44

is some argument there that that

54:47

was social contagion. There were these

54:49

early dancing manias, dancing plagues. where

54:51

people would start to dance and

54:53

others would then join them eventually

54:56

to the point where some people

54:58

actually died because they were exhausted

55:00

and ran out of nutrition and

55:03

some people have made a counter

55:05

argument to those that those weren't

55:07

kind of pure social contagions that

55:10

they were religious festivities or others

55:12

but there is an argument at

55:14

least we made it was social

55:17

contagions. You get outbreaks in schools,

55:19

you get outbreaks in workplaces with

55:21

kind of symptoms ranging

55:23

from fits through to kind

55:26

of feelings that you can't

55:28

breathe through to fainting and

55:30

some of the ones online

55:33

at the moment there's a

55:35

spread of Tourette's like symptoms

55:38

online and that was a

55:40

particular a feature of the

55:42

pandemic when teenagers were spending

55:45

a lot of time obviously

55:47

online and not in face-to-face

55:49

contact with each other and

55:52

they would watch videos of

55:54

people who had terets like

55:56

ticks and then start to

55:59

develop ticks. and

56:01

that's still happening although I

56:03

think the the peak of

56:05

it has passed now that

56:07

the the time of the

56:09

pandemic is over. A dissociative

56:11

identity disorder there's quite a

56:13

lot of evidence suggests that

56:15

that's been spreading online and

56:17

then there's also quite a

56:20

lot of emerging evidence to

56:22

suggest that anxiety and depression

56:24

not in all cases at

56:26

all, but certainly in some

56:28

cases anxiety and depression are

56:30

passing between people in general,

56:32

but particularly among teenagers. So

56:34

teenagers in general seem to

56:36

be susceptible to social contagions

56:38

and particularly teenage girls. And

56:40

is there evidence that gender

56:42

dysphoria as well as likely

56:45

to be a socially contagious

56:47

phenomenon? In my reading of

56:49

the evidence, yes, there are

56:51

lots of people who would

56:53

disagree with that, but there

56:55

have been, there are quite

56:57

a lot of reports from

56:59

teachers and in some research

57:01

papers as well of having

57:03

clusters of teenagers who've got

57:05

gender distress, who've got gender

57:07

distress, who've got gender distress,

57:09

who a trans identity and

57:12

those identifications cluster in friendship

57:14

groups and within schools as

57:16

well. And actually sometimes you

57:18

get clusters within cities and

57:20

different regions. One of the

57:22

problems is that there haven't

57:24

been any really big population

57:26

level studies that would give

57:28

us certainty that that's what's

57:30

been going on, but there

57:32

are smaller studies that certainly

57:34

point to that being quite

57:37

likely. So there was one,

57:39

for example, that looked at

57:41

homophobic name-calling within schools and

57:43

then it tracked forward to

57:45

see happened with gender identity

57:47

a few months later. And

57:49

teenagers who'd been at the

57:51

receiving end of homophobic name

57:53

calling were more likely to

57:55

have a trans identity several

57:57

months later. And there are

57:59

other studies that are similar.

58:01

So there are certainly indications.

58:04

and I think it's very

58:06

likely that there is at

58:08

least an element of social

58:10

contagion to that. And the

58:12

profile of the teenagers who

58:14

are vulnerable is very similar

58:16

to the profile of those

58:18

who have experienced contagion in

58:20

other places and times as

58:22

well. It's certainly for teenagers,

58:24

a diagnosis of gender dysphoria

58:26

is much more likely if

58:29

you have underlying anxiety and

58:31

depression, if you are female,

58:33

and if you are kind

58:35

of within that adolescent cohort

58:37

as well, and that maps

58:39

onto the profile of people

58:41

who have been vulnerable in

58:43

previous contagions. And I guess

58:45

two big social contagions we

58:47

haven't mentioned are eating disorders

58:49

and self-harm as well which

58:51

are known to spread among

58:54

that similar profile. Yeah and

58:56

there's a lot of evidence

58:58

to suggest that they're now

59:00

spreading online as well so

59:02

a lot of big social

59:04

media companies now have quite

59:06

tight policies on not showing

59:08

content relating to eating disorders

59:10

and self-harm in order to

59:12

prevent that. contagious element, but

59:14

there are a few studies

59:16

that are showing that even

59:18

positive, what's meant to be

59:21

positive content is leading to

59:23

spread of some of these

59:25

disorders. So if you've got

59:27

anti anorexia content, for example,

59:29

that's meant to be about

59:31

body positivity, even just mentioning

59:33

it as an idea, then

59:35

seems to be spreading some

59:37

of these ideas and behaviors.

59:39

it's something where we need

59:41

to be really aware and

59:43

quite cautious about the messages

59:46

that are attached to any

59:48

containment efforts. When it comes

59:50

to social media in general,

59:52

it was interesting a few

59:54

days ago Australia actually announced

59:56

that they're banning social media

59:58

for under 16s. Do you

1:00:00

blame social media for a

1:00:02

lot of these problems? Do

1:00:04

you think that its use

1:00:06

should be heavily regulated among

1:00:08

adolescents? Or do you think

1:00:10

perhaps that this problem is

1:00:13

being overhyped? I'm cautious. I

1:00:15

think that there certainly is

1:00:17

a role of social media

1:00:19

in some problems. I think

1:00:21

it's also been overstated at

1:00:23

a population level. So I

1:00:25

think for some teenagers it's

1:00:27

incredibly harmful. I think for

1:00:29

others it can be quite

1:00:31

helpful, particularly where it helps

1:00:33

them to if they feel

1:00:35

isolated in real life for

1:00:38

some it will help them

1:00:40

to kind of find a

1:00:42

sense of community. to find

1:00:44

other people who've got similar

1:00:46

interests. In some cases it

1:00:48

helps facilitate real life friendships.

1:00:50

So people can, teenagers can

1:00:52

kind of go online and

1:00:54

arrange to meet in the

1:00:56

park on Saturday afternoon or

1:00:58

whatever. So I think we

1:01:00

need to be careful about

1:01:03

writing off everything. I think

1:01:05

the idea of a ban

1:01:07

is interesting and I think

1:01:09

it would be quite helpful

1:01:11

to parents because a lot

1:01:13

of the time parents are

1:01:15

having to deal with everybody

1:01:17

else has got social media

1:01:19

so I need to have

1:01:21

social media as well so

1:01:23

it's quite hard for parents

1:01:25

who want to hold a

1:01:27

line on social media to

1:01:30

be able to do so

1:01:32

and having a ban would

1:01:34

be helpful for them but

1:01:36

I think everything needs to

1:01:38

be weighed up first quite

1:01:40

carefully and what's been raised

1:01:42

as potential issues with what's

1:01:44

proposed in Australia is that

1:01:46

without that kind of careful

1:01:48

consideration and making sure that

1:01:50

it's done in the right

1:01:52

way, you risk having a

1:01:55

potential backlash. shifting teenagers off

1:01:57

known platforms to unknown platforms

1:01:59

where they might be even

1:02:01

less safe. So I think

1:02:03

we need to be quite

1:02:05

careful with how it's managed.

1:02:07

Yes, I suppose ultimately it's

1:02:09

about the ratio, you know,

1:02:11

if a teenager uses Instagram

1:02:13

for an hour and that

1:02:15

helps them to communicate with

1:02:17

their friends who they then

1:02:19

see in person for three

1:02:22

hours, then you can imagine

1:02:24

that would be really helpful.

1:02:26

But if I suppose the

1:02:28

issue is if social

1:02:30

media is a teenager's entire social

1:02:32

world and it's becoming the entire

1:02:34

social world of a lot of

1:02:36

adults as well and that should

1:02:38

be pointed out then that can

1:02:40

be a huge problem like I

1:02:42

like to draw the analogy between

1:02:44

information and food so just with

1:02:46

food you have food that's nutritious

1:02:48

that we know is really good

1:02:50

for you like you can eat

1:02:52

as much salad as you want

1:02:54

they're probably not going to be

1:02:56

negative consequences but then there's junk

1:02:58

food and It's not that someone

1:03:00

can't eat junk food entirely, they

1:03:02

can have some junk food and

1:03:04

it's okay, but if their diet

1:03:07

is all junk food, that's a

1:03:09

problem. And I think similarly, with

1:03:11

information and socializing, the best socializing

1:03:13

is in person, getting that real

1:03:15

bond with the person, getting to

1:03:17

spend some time with them, social

1:03:19

media as a kind of high

1:03:21

stimulating, kind of socializing can be

1:03:23

useful, can be fun, but you

1:03:25

wouldn't want it to be the

1:03:27

whole, the bedrock of that person's

1:03:29

social life. Absolutely, and I think

1:03:31

it with some teenagers they're able

1:03:33

to use it quite likely to

1:03:35

pick it up and put it

1:03:37

down and others find it absolutely

1:03:39

impossible and that's where they need

1:03:41

adults to be there kind of

1:03:43

supporting them so that they can

1:03:45

actually either steer away from it

1:03:47

altogether or learn how to use

1:03:49

it in a healthy way. And

1:03:51

that's another thing that makes me

1:03:53

slightly cautious about a blanket ban

1:03:55

without any kind of careful approach

1:03:57

actually because I don't think we've

1:03:59

currently got a solution to what

1:04:01

happens when a teenager hits 16.

1:04:03

And if you look at... use

1:04:05

your junk food analogy. If you

1:04:07

look at research studies about parental

1:04:09

restriction of food, if parents have

1:04:11

too many rules around food, then

1:04:14

children don't learn how to regulate

1:04:16

themselves and they're much more likely

1:04:18

to have an unhealthy diet later

1:04:20

than if parents are slightly more

1:04:22

relaxed about it. And I worry

1:04:24

slightly that if we're not as

1:04:26

careful, something similar might be going

1:04:28

to happen with social media so

1:04:30

you have if you have 16

1:04:32

for example as being the point

1:04:34

at which social media is fine.

1:04:37

if there's been nothing that then supports teenagers

1:04:39

to learn to know how to use it

1:04:41

in a way that's healthy then the kind

1:04:43

of flip flip point at 16 might be

1:04:45

worse than if you had approached that point

1:04:47

more gradually and actually kind of structured for

1:04:49

them how it gets used. in a healthy

1:04:51

way. I think just having that kind of

1:04:54

black-white you're either totally out of it or

1:04:56

you're totally in it might not be the

1:04:58

right way to go but I'm not I

1:05:00

don't know what the solution is to that.

1:05:02

And as you're speaking I'm also wondering Are

1:05:04

we making a mistake by putting all the

1:05:06

focus on how social media is bad? And

1:05:09

none of the focus on how important in-person

1:05:11

socializing is, so rather than demonizing and banning

1:05:13

social media, should we really be promoting and

1:05:15

creating a culture of easy in-person socializing and

1:05:17

making that as frictionless as possible for kids

1:05:19

and making that as fun and as attractive

1:05:21

as an option as possible? I think that

1:05:23

would be brilliant if we could do it.

1:05:26

I mean, all of the research points to

1:05:28

having that real life community as being absolutely

1:05:30

essential and having a sense of belonging as

1:05:32

well. And if you have isolated teenagers who

1:05:34

are sitting in their bedrooms who aren't able

1:05:36

to develop that kind of real world,

1:05:38

of belonging, then then not

1:05:40

going to be able

1:05:43

to to be of cope

1:05:45

with with other negative aspects

1:05:47

of their life in

1:05:49

the same way as

1:05:51

if they've got that

1:05:53

if they've got that real real

1:05:55

web web holding them up.

1:05:57

them up. Absolutely. We're out

1:06:00

of time. Matilda, thank you thank

1:06:02

you so much for

1:06:04

coming on. I have

1:06:06

way more questions. So

1:06:08

we're going to have

1:06:10

to have you back

1:06:12

on at some point

1:06:14

in the future. Maybe

1:06:17

once your second book

1:06:19

is out. book love

1:06:21

that. love Thank you. you. Where

1:06:23

people, where should should people

1:06:25

go if they'd like

1:06:27

to know more about

1:06:29

your work? They

1:06:31

can go to my website,

1:06:34

which is Gosling.com. .com. either They can

1:06:36

get either of my books, parenting which

1:06:38

is already which is already out.

1:06:40

And then the the evidence is available to

1:06:42

available to pre -order now. media at

1:06:44

And I'm also on social

1:06:46

media a Matilda Gosling. Perfect. the put

1:06:48

a link to your website

1:06:50

in the description. Thanks very much

1:06:53

for coming on. you you for

1:06:55

having me. me.