0:00

Welcome back. Today we're revisiting

0:02

the Enigma that is Romantic

0:04

Relationships and with us to continue

0:06

that conversation is Mary

0:08

Morgan. Mary Morgan is

0:11

a psychoanalyst and couples

0:13

therapist. She's a fellow

0:15

of the British Psychoanalytical

0:17

Society. Until recently, Mary

0:19

was the reader in

0:21

couples psychoanalytic psychotherapy at

0:23

the Tavistock Relationship Center.

0:25

She has written extensively in the

0:28

field of psychoanalysis and teaches

0:30

and supervises internationally. She

0:32

is the author of a couple's date

0:34

of mind, psychoanalysis of couples, and she has

0:36

two upcoming books, Couple Relations

0:38

and Introduction and Love, its

0:41

meaning and exploration in couples

0:43

therapy. Today we discussed what drew

0:45

her to working with couples in therapy.

0:47

Some of the common problems people run

0:49

into in their everyday lives in

0:51

their relationships, problems, problems with communication.

0:54

Red flags, a relationship is in

0:56

trouble, green flags that couples therapy

0:58

seems to be working, some of

1:00

the more modern problems in dating

1:02

and relationships, particularly more recent cultural

1:05

trends in the West, such as

1:07

that of non-monogamy and how that

1:09

might be impacting modern couples. We

1:11

discuss a little bit how relationship

1:13

therapy works, some of the key

1:16

lessons Mary's learnt in her career,

1:18

some key relationship myths she'd like

1:20

to bust, and much more. This is

1:22

the Thinking Mind podcast. A

1:24

podcast all about psychiatry, psychotherapy,

1:27

psychology and self-development. If you like

1:29

it, do leave a review, give us a

1:31

rating, share with a friend. Or if you

1:33

want to support the podcast further, check out

1:35

some of the links in the description. Thanks

1:37

for listening and here's today's

1:39

conversation with Mary Morgan. Thank

1:52

you so much for spending some time

1:54

with me today. Pleasure, Alex. Thank

1:56

you for asking me. As the audience

1:58

will know, I practice. individual

2:01

therapy. I've always been fascinated

2:03

by couples therapy and I'm so

2:05

curious what do you work with

2:08

individuals and couples and what drew

2:10

you to specialize in couples therapy.

2:12

I do work with individuals as

2:14

well as couples because I'm trained

2:17

as a psychoanalyst but actually I

2:19

trained as a couple therapist first

2:21

to have a stock relationships. That

2:24

came out of practicing as a

2:26

social worker to start with. working

2:28

in family centers where we're encountering

2:31

couples whose children were at risk and

2:33

we try to get the whole family

2:36

in to work with them and I

2:38

tended to specialising working

2:40

with the parental couple. What do

2:42

you think attracted you to

2:44

couples therapy? What drew you

2:46

to that specialisation? That's such

2:49

a good question. I don't really know

2:51

the answer to that. I mean I

2:53

do think that relationships are central. It's

2:55

kind of, you know... They're at the

2:58

centre of the family, aren't they? Whatever

3:00

kind of family one has, you know,

3:02

the couple are central to that in

3:04

a way. It's kind of what makes

3:06

the world go around. It's more than

3:08

about a kind of couple relationships, I

3:10

think, that attracted me. And it's really

3:12

about kind of relating, you know, a

3:15

capacity to relate to another person. So

3:17

it might not be in a

3:19

couple relationship, but with friends, colleagues,

3:21

families, and things can break down,

3:23

can't they, in all those different

3:25

arenas, arenas, arenas. It's striking

3:27

how much the quality of

3:29

our relationship or our most central

3:31

relationships determine the quality of our

3:33

lives. Indeed, everything can be kind

3:36

of going well for us financially,

3:38

career-wise. We can have a roof

3:40

of our heads, and yet if

3:43

there's something wrong with our major

3:45

relationships, it's so striking how much

3:47

that affects us perhaps more than

3:49

we even might predict. that it would

3:51

and I suppose this is something that you

3:53

see in your work commonly. I do and

3:56

I think you know by pushing it that

3:58

way you're touching on something quite important. Alex

4:00

which is about the sort of

4:02

containing function of a relationship for

4:04

individuals that you know that if

4:07

you're in a relationship which develops

4:09

over time bills over time it

4:11

becomes a sort of a resource

4:13

for the individuals within it they

4:16

feel they've got something sort of

4:18

around them that can have a

4:20

containing function and that can help

4:22

the individuals in all sorts of

4:25

ways. What are the most common

4:27

problems? you find that people that

4:29

couples present to therapy with. The

4:31

kind of ordinary problems that couples

4:34

bring are things like problems in

4:36

communication and time together because they

4:38

don't have enough time or they

4:40

feel so tired when it gets

4:43

to the evening, you know, once

4:45

they finished working, put the children

4:47

to bad and sit down, they

4:49

just feel that there's no kind

4:52

of space when they fall. communicating.

4:54

The problem with that is that

4:56

then in order to sort of

4:58

relax, instead of talking together, people

5:00

kind of turn to their phones

5:03

or their computers, a lot of

5:05

couples complain that their partners got

5:07

more of a relationship with their

5:09

phone than with them. And so

5:12

I think that's one of the

5:14

big things is sort of, you

5:16

know, not having time or not

5:18

making time to talk. People don't

5:21

tend to view their relationships as

5:23

something that needs maintenance. Like most

5:25

people, most things people prize, like

5:27

if someone has a car they

5:30

really love or their home or

5:32

their career, there's a recognition that

5:34

in order for those things to

5:36

continue to be satisfying, they need

5:39

some kind of regular input and

5:41

regular maintenance. Whereas what seems, I'm

5:43

curious on your take on your

5:45

take on this, but with couples.

5:48

You have this period of falling

5:50

in love like the six months

5:52

to let's say two years of

5:54

falling in love where all the

5:57

positive feelings. seem to come really

5:59

automatically and then slowly, the investment

6:01

comes really automatically and then slowly

6:03

but surely many couples with time

6:05

because they don't take this maintenance

6:08

approach, they fall into the strap

6:10

of feeling like, okay, the relationship

6:12

is less satisfying, unconsciously, feeling like

6:14

it should be satisfying automatically like

6:17

a commodity as opposed to an

6:19

investment. Is there something that you've

6:21

encountered? Absolutely, and there's so much

6:23

in what you're saying actually Alex.

6:26

Yes, a relationship definitely needs to

6:28

be taken care of and to

6:30

be, you know, maintained and repaired

6:32

along the way. The trouble is,

6:35

I think, that quite a lot

6:37

of couples don't think of themselves

6:39

as having a relationship in that

6:41

sense. They tend to think of,

6:44

it's me in relation to you,

6:46

and if you sort of... did

6:48

this or didn't do this, then

6:50

that would make me happy kind

6:53

of thing. They don't kind of

6:55

think in terms of what they're

6:57

creating between them, and there's a

6:59

kind of entity, a third entity

7:02

if you like, their relationship, which,

7:04

you know, does need taken care

7:06

of. And as you say, sort

7:08

of at the beginning, couples don't

7:10

really need to think about this

7:13

too much because there's, you know,

7:15

what... I call the kind of

7:17

in-love stage where everything seems to

7:19

be working, sex is great and

7:22

there aren't too many kind of

7:24

problems but that does change over

7:26

time. And then for many couples

7:28

I suppose at that point they

7:31

do become aware of there's this

7:33

relationship and we need to take

7:35

care of it but for others

7:37

they might feel everything's gone wrong.

7:40

We're not feeling the same way

7:42

anymore. What's wrong with our relationship?

7:44

There's nothing wrong with it actually

7:46

but... It changes. Right, like the

7:49

relationship doesn't feel good anymore, therefore

7:51

something is wrong with the relationship

7:53

and I suppose many people seem

7:55

to come to the conclusion of,

7:58

oh I've just picked their own

8:00

person. and end up just dating

8:02

serially and never really getting into

8:04

a sustained relationship. I don't know

8:07

whether the relationship, whether they might

8:09

feel the relationships gone wrong, they

8:11

might feel that, but something sort

8:13

of changes in that they start

8:16

to perceive each other less idealistically

8:18

and more realistically. So you sort

8:20

of get closer to who the

8:22

real other person is, and that

8:24

can be difficult. I think it

8:27

was George Elliot who said that

8:29

marriage is awful in the nearness

8:31

that it brings. And there's something

8:33

about, you know, being close with

8:36

another person that brings you up

8:38

against the difficult things about them

8:40

as well as the things that,

8:42

you know, you've had enough with.

8:45

You know, at that point, you

8:47

know, 18 months to two years

8:49

or whatever, something starts to change

8:51

that has to be dealt with.

8:54

Yeah, and I suppose it also

8:56

brings you close to the things

8:58

that might not be so great

9:00

about yourself with your partner then

9:03

reflects back at you. Exactly, so

9:05

it's also, you know, your nearness

9:07

to them, you know, they see

9:09

these sort of aspects of yourself

9:12

and that can be difficult. Do

9:14

you think there's any truth to

9:16

the idea, like in pop psychology

9:18

circles on Instagram and places like

9:21

that, you'll often find these harsh

9:23

truths like... you might attract or

9:25

fall in love with or get

9:27

into a relationship with precisely the

9:29

kind of person that might reactivate

9:32

some of your more difficult early

9:34

life experiences. I suppose this is

9:36

what Freud would have called the

9:38

repetition compulsion. In your experience, is

9:41

there truth to this or is

9:43

it a bit more of a

9:45

simplistic aphorism which we shouldn't necessarily

9:47

take too seriously? I think there

9:50

is truth to it. I mean,

9:52

one of the things that, you

9:54

know, part of the kind of

9:56

theory, really, it's I kind of

9:59

take theory about couple interaction is

10:01

that the adult couple relationship is

10:03

an opportunity to rework. difficulties from

10:05

earlier relationships. So perhaps in the

10:08

primary relationship with the mother or

10:10

the whoever the parent is or

10:12

you know things that have gone

10:14

wrong in the sort of early

10:17

childhood might be brought into this

10:19

current relationship and they might either

10:21

be repeated in the way that

10:23

Freud was talking about. So for

10:26

example somebody might get together with

10:28

someone who rejects them. all the

10:30

time and because they were rejected

10:32

earlier and they just keep repeating

10:34

that experience so there's no real

10:37

development. But alternatively they might find

10:39

that they could they get into

10:41

a relationship where some of these

10:43

early difficulties could be worked through.

10:46

Maybe there's an expectation of being

10:48

rejected but actually they find with

10:50

their current sort of partner then

10:52

they're not rejected and then they

10:55

can sort of... change their internal

10:57

kind of preconceptions. Or, you know,

10:59

maybe they sort of had a

11:01

sort of angry parent and they

11:04

do kind of get together with

11:06

someone else who's angry, but maybe

11:08

the person that they get together

11:10

with manages their anger in a

11:13

constructive way, not a destructive way.

11:15

So it means that something can

11:17

change for that individual. In other

11:19

words, there is potentially something therapeutic

11:22

about an adult couple relationship. we

11:24

can kind of grow within them,

11:26

you know, potentially. That's good to

11:28

know, because it feels like there's

11:31

so much in the culture, and

11:33

I don't know if you've observed

11:35

this, but there seems to be

11:37

so much in the culture and

11:39

common like TV shows and films

11:42

that are really downplaying the importance

11:44

of potential value of and really

11:46

the optimism of a long-term monogamous

11:48

relationship. And I don't know if

11:51

this is just a response to...

11:53

sort of mid-20th century norms, which

11:55

went on questioned for a long

11:57

time and now we're seeing kind

12:00

of a culture. backlash, but there

12:02

seems to be a real pessimism

12:04

about long-term monogamous relationships at the

12:06

moment. I think that's true, but

12:09

I do think there are many

12:11

long-term monogamous relationships that thrive, but

12:13

I think you're right that there

12:15

are also those kinds of relationships

12:18

are being questioned, particularly by young

12:20

people, and you know, young people

12:22

I think are experimenting much more,

12:24

especially in... Western cultures, not in

12:27

all cultures of course. You know,

12:29

they're thinking about their sexual identity,

12:31

gender, what kind of relationship they

12:33

want to be in. And, you

12:36

know, some of them are rejecting

12:38

heteronormativity and monogamy, no, and choosing

12:40

other ways or trying other ways.

12:42

And of course, you know, to

12:44

couple therapists, this is... It's very

12:47

interesting, it's also quite challenging because

12:49

then one has to think about

12:51

what is a couple, you know?

12:53

And it's not, you know, this

12:56

straightforward thing that it might have

12:58

been 50 years ago. What do

13:00

you think is like a really

13:02

good, what's a good working definition

13:05

of a couple or relationship? And

13:07

I suppose this is probably something

13:09

you've covered in your book, a

13:11

couple state of mind, but what

13:14

do you think is a good

13:16

definition of like a healthy couple

13:18

or healthy relationship people can use?

13:20

I think that one of the

13:23

things that couples struggle with is

13:25

managing the other's separateness and difference

13:27

because although, you know, when you

13:29

form a couple there's a kind

13:32

of intimate bond and people come

13:34

together through shared values and things

13:36

they both identify with. They also,

13:38

particularly after this time, you were

13:41

talking about off the sort of,

13:43

could be six months for 18

13:45

months or two years, they discover...

13:47

you know, the other's difference and

13:49

otherness from them. And that's really

13:52

challenging. But if you can manage

13:54

that, if you can sort of

13:56

accept, then everybody thinks like me

13:58

and there's things about... you that

14:01

I don't like maybe understand or

14:03

get, but you're different from me.

14:05

If you can manage that, then

14:07

something more creative can happen between

14:10

the two people. You know couples,

14:12

particularly once they have children, kind

14:14

of get into the state of

14:16

mind where they feel it's really

14:19

important that we're on the same

14:21

page, you know, but they can't

14:23

always be on the same page,

14:25

you know, and when one parent

14:28

sees the other one, really not

14:30

managing with a little child. they

14:32

feel they can't do anything because

14:34

they've got to be on the

14:37

same page, whereas in fact what

14:39

would be most helpful would be

14:41

if the other parent could say,

14:43

look, can I help or should

14:46

we try doing this differently or,

14:48

you know, I think this might

14:50

be a better idea. That's a

14:52

more kind of creative couple relating,

14:54

but obviously some, you know, it's

14:57

difficult too. So I guess by

14:59

being on the same page in

15:01

this context, you're meaning... you do

15:03

things the way I think that

15:06

they should be done, which I

15:08

think is probably the better way

15:10

than you think they should be

15:12

done. So there's kind of a

15:15

enforcement of one partner's values on

15:17

the other, and you could see

15:19

how that could be quite oppressive,

15:21

oppressive, problem solving, something like that.

15:24

Yeah, that's a good way of

15:26

putting it. Yeah, definitely. And I

15:28

suppose so much of this is

15:30

about communication. Communication seems like a

15:33

sort of light, airy, fairy kind

15:35

of topic, and yet it's so

15:37

important. I personally believe it's so

15:39

easy to get communication wrong, even

15:42

with high amounts of training, and

15:44

of course most people get zero

15:46

training in communication. And I don't

15:48

think about this just in terms

15:51

of intimate relationships, but also friendships

15:53

and... again, work relationships. Where do

15:55

you think people tend to go

15:57

wrong in their communication? You'll rise

15:59

of course that communication can sound

16:02

like as a... fairy, fairy, you

16:04

know, a lovely thing that's kind

16:06

of communicated. But actually it is

16:08

quite difficult, you know, it's quite

16:11

difficult to properly listen to another

16:13

person. I mean I think one

16:15

of the efficacious things about all

16:17

forms of psychotherapy is that experience

16:20

of being properly listened to by

16:22

somebody. But in relationships we're not

16:24

always very good at that. And

16:26

it can be, I think for

16:29

couples quite hard... really listening to

16:31

the other one if if one

16:33

doesn't feel listen to oneself. So

16:35

kind of why should I listen

16:38

to you because you're not really

16:40

hearing me, but also, of course,

16:42

we get into this area that

16:44

we've just been talking about, about

16:47

finding, you know, by listening to

16:49

another, you're getting to know the

16:51

other as another, you know, with

16:53

different views, different ideas about things

16:56

that might either kind of... put

16:58

you in conflict or you might

17:00

feel that they sort of annihilate

17:02

your own ideas. You know, if

17:04

I take on your ideas, then

17:07

what about mine? As if there's

17:09

not enough room for two separate

17:11

ideas. But, you know, again, I

17:13

think, you know, where that is

17:16

possible and sometimes couples need help

17:18

with this, then that could lead

17:20

something really creative. Something I think

17:22

about, like a very big tension,

17:25

I find... an individual therapy is

17:27

the kind of striking the balance

17:29

between acceptance and sort of striving

17:31

for growth as it were. And

17:34

this is really hard even an

17:36

individual therapy like to what extent

17:38

should an individual in therapy dealing

17:40

with certain problems, to what extent

17:43

should they lean towards accepting themselves,

17:45

to what extent should they sort

17:47

of be challenging themselves to try

17:49

and actualize their potential. And I

17:52

think this becomes even more complicated

17:54

in couples, because I can see,

17:56

you know, one partner. encouraging another

17:58

to grow and reach their potential

18:01

to be a good thing. I

18:03

can imagine a version of that

18:05

that's more, again, imposing. Similarly, acceptance,

18:07

you know, one partner accepting the

18:09

other generally sounds like a really

18:12

good thing. And yet, there's a

18:14

sense of acceptance that can also

18:16

be a little bit stagnating. It's

18:18

the dark side of acceptance. How

18:21

do you manage these sorts of

18:23

tensions? in couples' work. I can

18:25

imagine some relationship therapists being like,

18:27

oh, it's all about the acceptance,

18:30

like one partner should just accept

18:32

the other. I can imagine a

18:34

different therapist thinking, no, it's, you

18:36

know, the couples should, to the

18:39

best of their abilities, be encouraging

18:41

each other to improve in some

18:43

way. And I can imagine a

18:45

balance of both. Where do you

18:48

sit with this? Does this tension

18:50

arise for you and your work?

18:52

It does arise, but I think

18:54

what's important here, and I do.

18:57

This is kind of the central

18:59

theme of my book, The Couple

19:01

State of Mind, is that the

19:03

couple therapist's position is trying to

19:06

understand the relationship. And therefore, you

19:08

know, how I would understand what

19:10

you've just described is that in

19:12

the couple relationship there is a

19:14

tension between defensiveness, if you like,

19:17

and development, you know, and one

19:19

partner is taking the more sort

19:21

of defensive position of... no change

19:23

that's except how we are or

19:26

I am and the other one

19:28

is pushing for some development but

19:30

they're both kind of involved in

19:32

it and that's the that's the

19:35

struggle in the relationship. So it's

19:37

so typically one partner will take

19:39

the more like let's change things

19:41

position and one will say that's

19:44

more like keep things as the

19:46

opposition that's what you find. Yes.

19:48

I mean, one of the important

19:50

theories, I think, of in couple

19:53

psychoanalysis or psychotherapy is the idea

19:55

of a couple projective system, meaning

19:57

that each partner is projecting spit-off

19:59

part. of themselves into the other.

20:02

So it might be that one

20:04

partner in a way could carry

20:06

the more developmental aspects for each

20:08

of them. And it is actually

20:11

important to both of them, but

20:13

the other one is kind of

20:15

putting the brakes on for

20:17

both of them. And it's

20:19

something they're sort of involved

20:21

in together. Yeah, and I think that's

20:24

like, I think what you're saying is

20:26

true because it's all about the dynamic,

20:28

like you can imagine one individual

20:31

in relation to this, this to one person,

20:33

they might be the super challenging one.

20:35

If they left that relationship and

20:38

entered the relationship with someone who

20:40

is even more challenging than them,

20:42

then they might be the one

20:44

taking the more accepting position. Like

20:46

I've often found this really striking

20:49

how, you know, so much of our

20:51

personality. that's so much of our

20:53

emphasized personalities relative to who we happen

20:55

to be relating to in any one

20:58

time like I might often find in

21:00

relation to one person oh I'm this

21:02

the more the charismatic side comes out

21:04

in relation to a different person

21:06

small the submissive side so I guess

21:09

this is kind of what we're hinting

21:11

at with this it is but

21:13

I think you know when we

21:15

think about unconscious partner choice which

21:17

is very related to a couple

21:20

projected system it might be that

21:22

unconsciously each partner chooses the other

21:24

because they're more comfortable with disowned

21:26

aspects of the self. So I

21:29

might choose to get together with

21:31

someone who perhaps does push things

21:33

forward in a way that I

21:35

really want to be able to do, but

21:37

I feel too anxious about it. So I'm

21:40

going to, you know, benefit from them

21:42

doing that for us, but I might

21:44

also try and hold them back a

21:46

bit as well because of my own

21:48

anxieties. Yeah, so I think it is all fair about

21:51

a sort of projector system, but

21:53

what's interesting about what you're saying,

21:55

Alex, is that, you know, you feel

21:57

like that can, those kind of mini

21:59

systems. can change depending on what

22:01

relationship you're in with different friends

22:03

and colleagues and so on? I

22:06

think so because it makes, I

22:08

like to think about things from

22:10

an evolutionary perspective as well and

22:12

so you start to think about

22:14

things in this context quite pragmatically

22:17

and about like what would be

22:19

adaptive and what's not and I

22:21

think what's really adaptive about human

22:23

beings is our ability to collaborate

22:25

and work as a team. That

22:28

being the case, I think in

22:30

any team you find yourself in,

22:32

it makes sense to emphasize certain

22:34

traits and de-emphasize others. So if

22:36

you're, for example, you know, trapped

22:38

on a desert island with someone

22:41

who's like very, very agentic, it

22:43

kind of makes sense for them

22:45

to handle the agenticness and the

22:47

decision-making and because they have that

22:49

covered. and you might be able

22:52

to handle other aspects and so

22:54

on and so forth with any

22:56

personality trait you can think of.

22:58

So I think human rating has

23:00

this weird way of like, okay,

23:03

let's bring out, you know, Alex

23:05

can cover this aspect of what

23:07

needs to be done. Mary can

23:09

cover this aspect and together, you

23:11

know, they kind of form a

23:13

whole. And then it can shift

23:16

quite fluidly depending on who happens

23:18

to be making up the team,

23:20

if you know what I mean.

23:22

That is an example of a

23:24

relationship working really well, isn't it?

23:27

And also, the very last thing

23:29

that you said, that maybe it

23:31

might need to change for some

23:33

reason, and can the couple kind

23:35

of swap positions if necessary? You

23:38

know, maybe there'd been some sort

23:40

of crisis of some kind with

23:42

children or work or health or

23:44

something, and what was the way

23:46

the couple were functioning before with

23:49

each, you know, Alex carrying this

23:51

and Mary carrying this? might need

23:53

to be reconfigured to deal with

23:55

that current situation. And if the

23:57

couple can do that, that would

23:59

also be a signer think of

24:02

a healthy relationship, that kind of

24:04

like... Yeah, just like a sign

24:06

of individual psychological health is that

24:08

person being able to think more

24:10

flexibly. A sign of relationship health

24:13

is a relationship being able to

24:15

be flexible and accommodate the different

24:17

disasters, as we know, disasters and

24:19

crises unfold all the time. I

24:21

mean, I'm curious, like, what are

24:24

some signs? you know that people

24:26

might be able to pick up

24:28

on in their everyday lives that

24:30

like actually this relationship does need

24:32

some working on maybe something like

24:35

entering into the realm of couples

24:37

therapy would be useful are there

24:39

any sort of obvious red flags

24:41

perhaps a good one to talk

24:43

about is about arguing because you

24:45

know there's different kinds of arguing

24:48

aren't there and some I mean

24:50

if a couple don't argue ever

24:52

that's a problem I think that's

24:54

a red flag but they can

24:56

argue have quite robust arguments and

24:59

they can feel productive and they

25:01

lead to change in the couple

25:03

and you know different behaviors and

25:05

progress in the relationship if you

25:07

like. But there are the couples

25:10

that report arguing more like kind

25:12

of bickering that goes on and

25:14

on and on it's repetitive and

25:16

it doesn't get anywhere. And I

25:18

think those couples often need help

25:20

to understand what's going on. often

25:23

I think behind or underneath the

25:25

bickering and it's not so conscious

25:27

that's why they might need to

25:29

come and get help is hate

25:31

you know some kind of hateful

25:34

feeling a normal kind of hatred

25:36

actually but that's gone sort of

25:38

underground I mean a good example

25:40

of this I think is is

25:42

when when a couple have young

25:45

children have children and say it's

25:47

a heterosexual couple and the husband

25:49

feels excluded from the mother and

25:51

the baby and all of a

25:53

sudden, you know, our relationship has

25:56

gone and now you're enough with

25:58

the baby. and what about me,

26:00

you know. But of course the

26:02

husband can't really express that because

26:04

it's not a really rational feeling,

26:06

it's not even, you know, he

26:09

feels I can't really say that,

26:11

that's the most unhelpful thing to

26:13

say, and also, you know, he

26:15

loves the baby too. So these

26:17

feelings get kind of pushed away,

26:20

but then the couple get a

26:22

bit sort of isolated from each

26:24

other, probably sex stops when there's

26:26

young children, and... and then when

26:28

the children are a bit older

26:31

and there's a bit more space

26:33

and maybe they start school that

26:35

sort of age five or something

26:37

the couple realize we're not having

26:39

we're not having sex anymore that

26:41

we don't even feel like it

26:44

anymore and and I think this

26:46

kind of thing the bickering and

26:48

sometimes this other problem of no

26:50

sex which I sort of morphed

26:52

into is to do with sort

26:55

of unresolved hatred that's sort of

26:57

gone underground. Resentments. Resentments, yes, exactly,

26:59

which haven't been sort of talked

27:01

about or worked through, but then

27:03

have a sort of insidious effect

27:06

on the relationship, which could be

27:08

something like bickering, it could be

27:10

loss of sexual desire, it could

27:12

be other things, but it doesn't

27:14

make any sense to the couple,

27:17

you know, because they're saying we

27:19

don't want to be doing this

27:21

bickering, it's just kind of ruining

27:23

our relationship, or... we both want

27:25

to have get back to having

27:27

sex like we do when we

27:30

got together but neither us wants

27:32

to you know they're sort of

27:34

difficulties that that feel kind of

27:36

beyond their control in a way

27:38

and again I guess they're unconsciously

27:41

thinking the sex the romance the

27:43

attraction the fun if you like

27:45

should be automatic because it was

27:47

automatic in the beginning so why

27:49

isn't it automatic now yeah exactly

27:52

it and that's That's partly because

27:54

I think in kind of Western

27:56

cultures we're up against this sort

27:58

of the romantic ideal you know

28:00

of a relationship and it's sort

28:02

of there in all the media

28:05

isn't it and the things that

28:07

you can read and everything as

28:09

if this how our relationship should

28:11

be for sort of that that

28:13

fun and feeling in love should

28:16

carry on forever and so people

28:18

might judge themselves against this kind

28:20

of ideal. So do you think

28:22

people are often shooting for this

28:24

ideal therefore shooting for like an

28:27

unrealistic target? Yes, but it can

28:29

sound a bit depressing, can't it?

28:31

The sort of, you know, the

28:33

loss of the romantic ideal, that

28:35

kind of disillusionment. You know, what

28:38

I would say is that if

28:40

that can be managed, then it

28:42

often leads to a kind of

28:44

deeper kind of love. And that

28:46

deeper love isn't a kind of

28:48

boring love. You know, it can

28:51

have fun and enjoyment and romantic

28:53

elements to it, but it's not

28:55

defined by the romantic ideal. Yes.

28:57

How new is this romantic idea?

28:59

How recent is this? And I

29:02

think it's always a good moment

29:04

when people find out, oh romance

29:06

isn't that old actually? You kind

29:08

of think unconsciously romance is as

29:10

old as self, but as a

29:13

cultural thing, it's relatively new. How

29:15

recent is it? It is fairly

29:17

new. I think we tend to

29:19

think this is what it's been

29:21

like, you know, forever, or we

29:23

can do. But actually it wasn't

29:26

like that. So probably a hundred

29:28

years ago, even, that people... you

29:30

know married for or were married

29:32

off for particular reasons love wasn't

29:34

seen as the main as particularly

29:37

important it was more to do

29:39

with security and other factors that

29:41

came into it but it's certainly

29:43

very present now isn't it? Very

29:45

present I think very quite can

29:48

be quite damaging because if you

29:50

think that's what you're shooting for

29:52

which is basically what I mean

29:54

is effortless romantic love that's kind

29:56

of automatic in the way that

29:59

it is when you just start

30:01

dating. Again, not something you have

30:03

to continually invest in, not something

30:05

that's ever unpleasant, then it's totally

30:07

unrealistic. and you're doomed to feel

30:09

like every relationship is either a

30:12

failure or going to be a

30:14

failure at some point. In a

30:16

way, I feel quite, I've read

30:18

like a lot of, I've read

30:20

and watched a lot of anecdotal

30:23

stories of people in other cultures

30:25

who actually do end up together

30:27

via things like arranged marriage or

30:29

marriage at a very young age

30:31

after not a lot of time

30:34

dating. It's quite striking how much,

30:36

you know, often those couples will

30:38

report, this is an anecdote, but

30:40

we report quite high rates of

30:42

satisfaction in their marriage, and to

30:44

the Western mind, that's so counterintuitive,

30:47

because we think like, how can

30:49

it be, you know, we prioritize

30:51

choice, freedom, the ability to choose

30:53

one person out of, you know,

30:55

a pool of potential eligible bastards,

30:58

how could it be that, you

31:00

know, your parents deciding for you

31:02

is a good idea and it

31:04

just goes to show that our

31:06

intuitions aren't necessarily aligned on how

31:09

to on how best to find

31:11

like a long-term good part there

31:13

and often the roots to that

31:15

can be quite can be a

31:17

lot more mysterious than we think.

31:20

I think that's right and you

31:22

know what listening to you talk

31:24

Alex it just sort of reminds

31:26

me of how many different conceptualizations

31:28

of love there is you know

31:30

we tend to think of it

31:33

think of it. within our own

31:35

kind of cultural framework, don't we?

31:37

But there are many different cultural

31:39

frameworks. And when I was talking

31:41

to you and I was telling

31:44

you about a book that hopefully

31:46

will come out later this year

31:48

on love. It's called Love, its

31:50

meaning and expiration in couple therapy.

31:52

And we were very interested in

31:55

the different experiences couples have of

31:57

love and different meanings meanings and

31:59

different meanings. and diverse meanings, actually.

32:01

Thinking about arranged marriages, for example,

32:03

I think... that there can be

32:05

a very different idea of sort

32:08

of what love is and a

32:10

sense of in some arranged marriages,

32:12

say within particular religious communities, there

32:14

is a feeling of doing this

32:16

for the community. You know, we're

32:19

kind of, it's not just the

32:21

two of us, we're forming this

32:23

bond as part of a bigger

32:25

thing, really, that involves more than

32:27

us. joining together the two families.

32:30

Joining together the two families, you

32:32

know, trusting in the judgment of

32:34

the of the parents and the

32:36

people that have have sort of

32:38

arranged the marriage and and then

32:41

there is a sort of quite

32:43

a commitment to making that relationship

32:45

work because it's quite difficult if

32:47

it doesn't work. There is a

32:49

kind of signing up to we're

32:51

going to kind of make this

32:54

work now. That might be hard

32:56

to kind of conceive of, but

32:58

from the kind of romantic sort

33:00

of idea, but actually, I think

33:02

it's true that some of those

33:05

relationships can work very well, that

33:07

they start in a different way,

33:09

and they've got a different idea

33:11

about the meaning of love, actually.

33:13

Yeah, and I guess it's partly

33:16

a bit alienating to the Western

33:18

mind, because we think of it

33:20

as contrived, and we don't like

33:22

to think of our... life choices

33:24

ours as contrived in the West.

33:26

I feel like in modern times,

33:29

unconsciously, we want everything to be

33:31

like our choice and organically fulfilling.

33:33

And I think this could be

33:35

a problem once people are in

33:37

a relationship and they're trying to

33:40

improve it. I think they often

33:42

feel the things that they need

33:44

to do to improve it are

33:46

too contrived. So like going to

33:48

couples therapy, it's too artificial. or

33:51

even some of the things a

33:53

couples therapist might recommend. I'm curious

33:55

if you would recommend things like

33:57

scheduling date nights for instance is

33:59

something I've seen relationship coaches. recommend

34:02

like, you know, code and offer

34:04

period of time in your calendar

34:06

where the purpose is for the

34:08

two people to communicate or be

34:10

romantic or some combination. And that

34:12

to a lot of people feels

34:15

like, oh, if I feel I

34:17

have to do something on purpose,

34:19

then it's not real somehow. And

34:21

yet, those practices seem to work.

34:23

Is that the kind of thing

34:26

you recommend or and similarly do

34:28

you find this opposition to this,

34:30

this, this artificiality of some of

34:32

these interventions? I don't know because

34:34

I don't work in that way,

34:37

you know, because there's a psychoanalytic

34:39

couple, there's different kinds of couple

34:41

therapists, perhaps we should say, and

34:43

some are perhaps more behavioral and

34:45

offering exercises to do or things

34:47

to the couple to try out,

34:50

but a psychoanalytic couple therapist wouldn't

34:52

be doing it in that kind

34:54

of way. They might be interested

34:56

in why the couple don't have

34:58

any time together and what's... what

35:01

does that mean and what's going

35:03

on sort of more unconsciously? So

35:05

there's different approaches but the other

35:07

thing that I was thinking as

35:09

you spoke was about couple therapists

35:12

feeling, sorry couples feeling, you know,

35:14

they don't necessarily want someone else

35:16

involved in their kind of private

35:18

couple relationship and the idea of

35:20

coming from for couple therapy to

35:23

talk about your kind of private

35:25

relationship with someone else might feel

35:27

very difficult. And I think that

35:29

is an issue and I think

35:31

that does put couples off coming

35:33

for help. And as a couple

35:36

therapist I think you have to

35:38

find a sort of the right

35:40

distance with a couple. You can't

35:42

be too removed from them, but

35:44

also you don't want to intrude

35:47

into their relationship. So that's something

35:49

to kind of learn and find

35:51

out with each couple really where

35:53

they feel comfortable to allow the

35:55

therapist into their relationship. Because you

35:58

see, you're an individual therapist, aren't

36:00

you, Alex? Yeah, so the problem

36:02

with couple therapy is that you

36:04

don't know what the partner's going

36:06

to talk about. And if you

36:08

want them to talk about that

36:11

now or ever, you know, with

36:13

the therapist, so it can feel

36:15

very sort of exposing actually coming

36:17

as a couple and shaming as

36:19

well and sort of all sorts

36:22

of difficult feelings can be stirred

36:24

up. bringing your relationship therapy. I'm

36:26

really curious from the outside looking

36:28

in it. It looks so challenging.

36:30

Individual therapy is challenging. Copper's therapy

36:33

looks incredibly challenging. What do you

36:35

find most tricky about it? Good

36:37

question. I mean I think that's

36:39

that that's sort of that I

36:41

think what I've just described as

36:44

one of the difficulties is kind

36:46

of getting that relate the position

36:48

of the therapist in the right

36:50

place so it's neat it's you're

36:52

close enough to the couple but

36:54

not too intrusive but then on

36:57

the other hand I say that

36:59

and I think this can move

37:01

around a bit in a session

37:03

and over sessions and you know

37:05

I think the therapist usually can

37:08

judge that I think the most

37:10

difficult situations probably are couples that

37:12

don't listen to each other talk

37:14

over each other where there's quite,

37:16

there's various forms of what I

37:19

would call narcissistic forms of relating

37:21

where one partner sort of rather

37:23

takes over the other. Sometimes there's

37:25

a kind of particular narcissistic fit

37:27

where there's somebody who's more kind

37:29

of narcissically self-assured and the other

37:32

partner has quite a poor developed

37:34

sense of south. that sort of

37:36

self-assuredness in the narcissistic partner might

37:38

have drawn the other one to

37:40

them and at the beginning of

37:43

the relationship they might have really

37:45

relied on the other thought the

37:47

other one knows more than them

37:49

they're the one that sort of

37:51

has a better grasp on what

37:54

a relationship is but then the

37:56

other partner who's got a poor

37:58

sense of self starts to develop

38:00

maybe they have individual therapy and

38:03

they want to sort of be themselves

38:05

in the relationship and the other

38:07

one kind of can't bear it

38:09

because the other ones kind of being

38:12

more separate from them feel such

38:14

a threat. So these are very

38:16

difficult couples actually to work

38:18

with and of course the therapist

38:20

also has a separate state

38:23

of mind. So anything that the

38:25

therapist says that doesn't sort

38:27

of accord with... with the

38:29

more narcissistic partner, if

38:31

you like, can also feel threatening.

38:34

So this can be quite a

38:36

difficult situation to work with,

38:38

I think. And then what are

38:40

the, what are like the green

38:43

flags in couples therapy? How do

38:45

you know things are starting to

38:47

go well? Okay, so that's a nice

38:49

question. That's a really nice question.

38:51

I think, and you know, I...

38:54

I think this is where the

38:56

development of a couple state of

38:58

mind is so important

39:00

because to start with it's the

39:02

it's the approach the couple

39:04

therapist takes over couple

39:06

therapist is focusing even though

39:08

the couple therapist might work

39:10

with each individual all the

39:13

time she's trying to use

39:15

that to understand what's happening

39:17

between the couple. Then over

39:19

time if the therapy's going well.

39:22

the couple start to internalize a

39:24

couple's state of mind into their

39:26

relationship. And so they come to the

39:28

next session and they say, oh, we

39:31

had this terrible row on Friday night.

39:33

But then Saturday morning, we had

39:35

a conversation where I said to my

39:37

partner, you know, I think when I said that

39:40

thing to you, that stirred up that thing

39:42

that always does up in you and then

39:44

you did that thing to me. And we

39:46

got going on this thing that we do

39:49

in our relationship that we do in our

39:51

relationship. That's music to my ears

39:53

because I realize that they're starting

39:55

to develop that capacity for reflection

39:57

as another way of putting it.

40:00

to be able to reflect on what

40:02

happens in their relationship.

40:04

And of course, this becomes

40:06

a really important resource in

40:08

a couple's relationship, because

40:11

even when things break down between

40:13

them, things go wrong, they have

40:15

horrible arguments, or stop talking to

40:18

each other, they know that there

40:20

is a capacity somewhere in their

40:22

relationship that they can find

40:24

where they're able to process

40:27

this together. And when this

40:29

starts to happen, I think the couple,

40:31

it's a green flag for the therapist

40:33

because she can start to think, okay,

40:35

at some point, I can remove myself from

40:38

this relationship. They don't need me

40:40

anymore because they've got it, you know,

40:42

they've got what I represented

40:44

inside their relationship. So it's

40:46

kind of the beginning of the

40:49

end, you might carry on for

40:51

another six months together or whatever,

40:53

consolidating that kind of experience. So

40:55

they're able to internalize... the

40:57

ability to think not just about

41:00

themselves, but about the state of

41:02

a relation of the relationship

41:04

as a separate entity, the

41:07

common patterns they're falling into,

41:09

and how those patterns are

41:11

like surreptitiously blocking them from

41:13

getting their needs met. Yeah,

41:15

great summary, Alex, yeah. You

41:18

mentioned non-monogamy earlier or

41:20

polyamery. This is obviously

41:22

becoming more popular nowadays.

41:24

I'm not a psychoanalyst. If I

41:26

had to put on my

41:29

most cynical psychoanalytic hat, I

41:31

might think, oh, non-monogamy, could this

41:33

be kind of a defense

41:35

against perhaps the fears or

41:38

the pressures of a monogamous

41:40

relationship? What do you think this

41:42

is ever the case? What are

41:44

your views on non-monogamy? Yeah, I

41:46

mean, you're right. These are kind of

41:49

contemporary issues. I think open

41:51

relationships. tended to be

41:54

more in with male

41:56

same-sex relationships, but now

41:58

heterosexual couples also. opening

42:00

up their relationships. And I think

42:02

for different reasons, actually, sometimes the

42:05

couple themselves might say, look, there's

42:07

something problematic in our relationship. Sex

42:09

has become boring or something. Let's

42:12

see if, you know, having sex

42:14

outside the relationship might enliven our

42:16

couple relationship. So it's... that those

42:19

couples themselves might kind of say,

42:21

it's not exactly defensive, but it

42:23

might be a solution to a

42:26

difficulty that they have. Of course,

42:28

it can all go badly wrong.

42:31

I think this is the problem,

42:33

that there can be usually an

42:35

open relationships, as I understand them,

42:38

and I'm not an expert, but

42:40

there's usually that the couple work

42:42

out some sort of rules about

42:45

how they're going to have those

42:47

relationships. One of them tends to

42:49

be that there shouldn't be, there

42:52

should be emotional fidelity. So, you

42:54

know, neither partner should get sort

42:56

of emotionally involved with anybody else.

42:59

It's more a sexual encounter. But

43:01

of course, sometimes they do get

43:04

emotionally involved. And that's when it

43:06

can be really difficult, particularly if

43:08

they fear. Yeah, how is it

43:11

possible to control such a thing

43:13

from happening? I don't think it

43:15

is, but I think people try

43:18

to do that. You know, but

43:20

I suppose at that point the

43:22

couple might decide, look, this is

43:25

not working for us or something.

43:27

You know, so maybe this is

43:29

not an answer. You know, so

43:32

it's not like they always have

43:34

to have an open relationship. They

43:37

might decide, we'll try it and

43:39

see if it helps us, works

43:41

for us. enhances our relationship but

43:44

if it doesn't. But of course

43:46

sometimes there are these really difficult

43:48

situations where somebody is very emotionally

43:51

attached to somebody else and and

43:53

then it's a kind of crisis

43:55

really for the primary couple. Yes

43:58

and I think as with any

44:00

behavior I would hesitate to make

44:02

a blank statement, you know, they

44:05

want to pursue this behavior because

44:07

fill in the blank. I think

44:10

it really depends on what position

44:12

they're coming from. I can imagine

44:14

some people going towards non-monogamy more

44:17

as a defense. I can imagine

44:19

other people just being more dispositionally

44:21

predisposed to something like non-monogamy and

44:24

everything in between. So I suppose

44:26

it depends on like what is

44:28

like what is the reason you're

44:31

going for it. Are there any

44:33

fears you're running away from or

44:35

is it more a positive thing

44:38

that you're moving towards and what

44:40

is your like relationship to that

44:43

behaviour? Exactly. It can be many

44:45

things, not just that something's gone

44:47

wrong. It could be, you know,

44:50

a rejection of, you know, heteronormative

44:52

relationships or just the idea of

44:54

monogamy for heterosexual couples. You know,

44:57

more about not wanting to be

44:59

constricted by particular forms of... relating

45:01

and you know it can take

45:04

many different forms really and work

45:06

for some couples and not for

45:08

others. Polyamery I think is it's

45:11

often kind of put together with

45:13

open relationships but I think it

45:16

is quite a different sort of

45:18

phenomena actually and you know is

45:20

sometimes about sexual relationships, sometimes not,

45:23

sometimes it is more about emotional.

45:25

relationships. So what's the main distinction

45:27

between polyamery and open relationships? I

45:30

think in open relationships there's a

45:32

kind of a central couple who

45:34

are choosing as a couple usually,

45:37

it has to be really, to

45:39

open their relationship for various reasons.

45:41

In polyamery there might be a

45:44

central couple, you know, but there

45:46

might not be. There might be

45:49

several couples. There might be several

45:51

couples sort of living together or

45:53

living apart or there might be

45:56

an individual who has relationships with

45:58

many people who... never meet. It

46:00

can take many forms. I think

46:03

it's something that's kind of becoming

46:05

more, how did somebody put it?

46:07

It's becoming, you know, more of

46:10

a phenomena. You know, it's still

46:12

working out on what it is,

46:14

but it's not becoming sort of

46:17

more describeable in a way. It's

46:19

becoming more undescribable, really. And I

46:22

suppose this kind of a rejection

46:24

against like clear definitions in some

46:26

sense or certainly a rejection of...

46:29

Maybe the notion of like sacrifice

46:31

or the notion of like delayed

46:34

gratification or self-restriction that is you

46:36

know has been typical of marriage

46:38

across history It's like we don't

46:40

want to have prescribed norms It's

46:42

rejection of that prescribed norms perhaps.

46:45

That's right. Yeah, so I think

46:47

in that way it sort of

46:49

resonates more with queer theory which

46:51

you know without going into that

46:54

in detail, but which kind of

46:56

rejects all these kind of constraints,

46:58

I think, on forms of relating,

47:00

sexual relating. Yeah, the problem with

47:02

that is, again, this is a

47:05

problem of the West, is we

47:07

idealize freedom and we reject constraints

47:09

without realizing that, A, we can't

47:11

really reject constraints, we can reject

47:13

some constraints. and some social constraints.

47:16

But there are many, like, there

47:18

are fundamental realities of our existence

47:20

that are constraining. Sorry if I'm

47:22

getting a bit self-indulgently philosophical. So

47:25

there's some constraints that like just

47:27

part of being alive. And two,

47:29

or B, we need constraints way

47:31

more than we think we do.

47:33

Again, in the West, we shirk

47:36

them. Okay, we just don't need

47:38

these constraints. Wouldn't life be better

47:40

if in the blank? But actually...

47:42

Like many animals, we need constraints

47:44

to keep us like a bit

47:47

sane and a bit healthy. And

47:49

there seems to be something almost

47:51

perverse about the amount of freedom

47:53

we have. I don't mean just

47:56

like... I mean, even non-sexually perverse,

47:58

that the amount of freedom and

48:00

choice that we have seems to

48:02

be making us less and less

48:04

happy. I think that's probably right,

48:07

and I think there's an off,

48:09

you know, whatever, obviously some people

48:11

in polyamorous relationships really sort of

48:13

feel that that's what they want

48:15

and benefit from, but there's all

48:18

sorts of difficulties as well. For

48:20

example, sometimes they're hierarchical relationships, and

48:22

some people have more power in

48:24

the polyamery than other people do.

48:27

There's also, as I understand it,

48:29

you know, jealousy is really frowned

48:31

upon and that's the idea that

48:33

you should kind of have joy

48:35

in other people's, your partner's, pleasure.

48:38

But of course, what happens to

48:40

jealousy? You know, from a psychoanalytic

48:42

point of view, what does one

48:44

do with those feelings really? You

48:46

can't just... Magic them away? Have

48:49

them, no, exactly. And I think

48:51

the thing that we haven't sort

48:53

of perhaps touched on is children,

48:55

you know, who are the couple

48:58

in the... children and the parents,

49:00

you know, in this situation. Again,

49:02

I think, you know, many polyamorous

49:04

would argue that this can be

49:06

managed. Well, maybe it can, maybe

49:09

sometimes it's quite confusing, though, for

49:11

children. And certainly for couple therapists,

49:13

it's sort of, you know, it's

49:15

hard to kind of get one's

49:17

head around sort of who the

49:20

couple is. really, you know, and

49:22

it might be a problem of

49:24

who you're working with. Someone told

49:26

me that, you know, they were

49:29

expecting to see a couple once

49:31

and four people turned up on

49:33

the doorstep, you know. So it's,

49:35

it's challenging. Yeah, I think one

49:37

thing that's inevitable is that if

49:40

the more people involved in the

49:42

relationship, the more complex it is

49:44

and the more prone. to instability

49:46

it is. And that's not like

49:48

a moral judgment. I think that's

49:51

pretty straightforwardly factual that the more

49:53

the more the more people's like

49:55

two is more complicated than one,

49:57

three is more complicated than two,

50:00

and then that instability if there

50:02

are children involved is likely to

50:04

affect them, doesn't mean that children

50:06

can't be raised healthily in a

50:08

polyamorous situation, but it does mean

50:11

in all likelihood that it's going

50:13

to be a little bit more

50:15

complicated. Are there any kind of

50:17

big relationship myths that you'd like

50:19

to bust? Are there any... you

50:22

know, people commonly will give their

50:24

two cents about relationships in everyday

50:26

life. Are there any common misconceptions

50:28

which you're dying to contradict? I

50:31

think that's one of the important

50:33

ones and we have touched on

50:35

this is that relationships aren't just

50:37

about love. They're also about hate,

50:39

you know, that we have we

50:42

have the full range of feelings

50:44

really that come into the intimate

50:46

couple relationship. And somehow or other

50:48

we have to make room for

50:50

those feelings too. Doesn't mean, you

50:53

know, a disaster or a catastrophe

50:55

for the relationship. If there's something

50:57

about your partner you really don't

50:59

like or something they did that

51:02

you hated, it doesn't mean that,

51:04

but it's part of it really.

51:06

So perhaps I am saying this

51:08

is, you know, very different from

51:10

a kind of romantic. ideal. The

51:13

other thing is that, and I

51:15

think this is another difficult thing

51:17

about relationships, is that we can

51:19

ever kind of remain the same

51:21

as who we were once we're

51:24

in a relationship, because I think

51:26

by having that sort of closeness

51:28

with another and allowing the other

51:30

to affect us, we were changed

51:33

and that's... challenging but it's also

51:35

a kind of developing thing. So

51:37

it's people change over time, being

51:39

close to someone who is different

51:41

and separate from us and really

51:44

kind of taking them. on board

51:46

challenges the self and means that

51:48

we can't kind of go back

51:50

to where we were before we

51:53

were in that relationship. I think

51:55

some couples, some people want to,

51:57

they kind of feel, you know,

51:59

they want to. And I imagine

52:01

as you're saying that my reaction

52:04

is, I bet some people kind

52:06

of allow themselves to be changed

52:08

too much and some people are

52:10

too resistant to being changed at

52:12

all. Does that resonate to your

52:15

experience? Yes, when I was talking

52:17

about that sort of, you know,

52:19

that kind of narcissistic kind of

52:21

coupling, where one partner is very

52:24

kind of certain and doesn't seize,

52:26

you know, they don't need to

52:28

change at all. And the other

52:30

one is too permeable to change,

52:32

you know, too unable to hold

52:35

a boundary around themselves. I think,

52:37

you know, that can be a

52:39

real difficulty, I think. So there

52:41

can be that imbalance and maybe

52:43

the work would be... you know,

52:46

can the more narcissistic person allow

52:48

themselves to be changed and change

52:50

their worldview and maybe make some

52:52

more compromise and can the other

52:55

partner develop themselves, assert themselves a

52:57

bit more clearly develop their own

52:59

sort of value system, what they

53:01

care about and establish more kind

53:03

of equilibrium in that way. Yes,

53:06

exactly. But they might need help

53:08

to do that because I think...

53:10

What we're talking about can feel

53:12

quite threatening, you know, to both

53:14

partners, you know, or the partner

53:17

who is developing might feel quite

53:19

sort of fearful about how this

53:21

is going to go down with

53:23

the other one and the narcissistic

53:26

partner. I know we're using kind

53:28

of terms here, but let's say

53:30

the more kind of self-assured partner

53:32

can start to feel very threatened

53:34

by the developing separateness of the

53:37

other partner. Right. To someone in

53:39

that position. separateness and boundaries feels

53:41

very threatening to their sense of

53:43

self and then they can. overreact

53:45

with anger and so on. Yeah.

53:48

What does sound like the biggest

53:50

epiphanies you've had about relationships sort

53:52

of across your career as a

53:54

couple's therapist? What are some things

53:57

that really surprised you about all

53:59

of this? Obviously, you know, working

54:01

with couples for as long as

54:03

I have, it sort of challenges

54:05

your idea about there being any

54:08

one kind of couple, if you

54:10

like, you know, I come across...

54:12

you know, very different ways of

54:14

coupling and different ways of kind

54:16

of, you know, feeling happy as

54:19

a couple, even though I think

54:21

that there are some elements that

54:23

are really important for all couples.

54:25

And, you know, it's really important,

54:28

I think, that we don't, as

54:30

couple therapists, sort of, that we're,

54:32

sort of, don't in any way,

54:34

kind of impose our own beliefs

54:36

about what a couple is on

54:39

a couple. Even though couples actually

54:41

sometimes come asking for that, you

54:43

know, consciously or unconsciously, they're saying,

54:45

tell us what it is to

54:47

be a couple, how a couple's

54:50

supposed to be. But I think

54:52

our job is to try and

54:54

help them discover the kind of

54:56

couple they want to be, and

54:59

you know, and to be less

55:01

driven by unconscious factors that are

55:03

directing the relationship in ways that

55:05

are causing them unhappiness. Yeah, I

55:07

always felt like what really distinguished

55:10

psychoanesis was psychoanesis was never going

55:12

to tell you how to be

55:14

psychoanalysis job. And please correct me

55:16

if you think I'm wrong about

55:18

this is to develop and refine

55:21

your self-awareness the different layers to

55:23

your personality and what makes you

55:25

you, again, how early life experience

55:27

may have affected that. and therefore

55:30

by reducing unconsciousness allow you to

55:32

make some choices and then your

55:34

choices would be what they are

55:36

but at least they're coming from

55:38

a position of self-awareness rather than

55:41

and how most people operate, which

55:43

is kind of a default to

55:45

unconsciousness, a more reflexive action, if

55:47

you like. Absolutely, you know, and

55:49

in a way that kind of

55:52

sums up, you know, what couples

55:54

are often struggling with, they're kind

55:56

of coming, they might not be

55:58

saying this directly, but they're kind

56:01

of saying, look, this isn't the

56:03

kind of couple we want to

56:05

be, this is not the relationship

56:07

we want to have, but for

56:09

some reason we can't stop kind

56:12

of behaving in this way towards

56:14

each other and making each other

56:16

unhappy. And that's the job of

56:18

a psychoanalytically trained couple therapist really

56:20

is to try and help or

56:23

to try and understand and help

56:25

the couple to understand what's going

56:27

on at an unconscious level, what's

56:29

driving them to do with things

56:32

in their past to relate in

56:34

particular kinds of ways. So in

56:36

the midst of a session, if

56:38

one of the clients in the

56:40

couple... express something, you know, and

56:43

maybe you see they're expressing it.

56:45

You can see what they're trying

56:47

to express, but see that it's

56:49

being expressed in a not so

56:51

helpful way. Is it part of

56:54

your job to kind of interpret

56:56

that, almost try and translate it

56:58

in a way that is a

57:00

bit more helpful, that the other

57:03

partner can receive it? Is that

57:05

something that might be involved in

57:07

a couple session? Yes, but I

57:09

think that I might try and

57:11

do it both ways round. This

57:14

is what I think you're trying

57:16

to say you're trying to say.

57:18

but this is the way I

57:20

think the other partner this is

57:22

how you're you're hearing it and

57:25

this is kind of one of

57:27

the things that's going wrong between

57:29

you you know a kind of

57:31

miscommunication really so you're identifying the

57:34

pattern of miscommunication yes between them

57:36

yeah interesting and and the last

57:38

question I want to ask you

57:40

and this might be a bit

57:42

controversial and you may not wish

57:45

to answer it which should be

57:47

fine is when you when you're

57:49

working with couples Are there ever

57:51

signs, you know, that actually I

57:53

don't think this relationship has a

57:56

high likelihood of succeeding? and actually

57:58

do you ever come to the

58:00

conclusion with the people you work

58:02

with that maybe the best course

58:05

of action is for this relationship

58:07

to end actually? Yeah, and it's

58:09

a good question and I'm happy

58:11

to answer it. It doesn't happen

58:13

that often that I would make

58:16

that kind of decision. Couples do

58:18

break up, but that often they

58:20

decide to break up, but there

58:22

have been a few occasions where

58:24

I feel the relationship is so

58:27

destructive and particularly... if I feel

58:29

the children of that relationship are

58:31

suffering, that I might help them

58:33

to separate, and particularly if I

58:36

feel it's not getting anywhere the

58:38

therapy, which might be because there

58:40

is just a really difficult fit

58:42

between the couple, that what they're

58:44

bringing unconsciously to the relationship is

58:47

just stirring up the other one

58:49

too much and they can't kind

58:51

of get out of it even

58:53

without, you know, a lot of...

58:55

help. So occasionally I think yeah

58:58

that the couple actually might need

59:00

help from the therapist to to

59:02

separate you know. And then maybe

59:04

maybe conversely like what are some

59:07

of the transformations you've seen in

59:09

your work how like how couples

59:11

have been able to turn it

59:13

around. I think this is what's

59:15

so amazing about doing couple work

59:18

actually. I feel it is such

59:20

a privilege for a couple to

59:22

allow you kind of into their

59:24

relationship or close to their relationship,

59:26

however they would see it. And

59:29

the fact that so much change

59:31

and development is possible, in fact,

59:33

even couples who feel very stark,

59:35

can change. And it's very rewarding

59:38

to be part of that process.

59:40

So yeah. Well, Mary Morgan, thank

59:42

you so much for spending some

59:44

time with me. It's been wonderful

59:46

to be able to learn more

59:49

about this and would be happy

59:51

to have you back on at

59:53

some point in the future. Okay,

59:55

thank you very much Alex, thanks.