0:00

Hey everybody, just a

0:02

quick note before we get to

0:04

the rest of the show, you

0:07

will notice that we do not

0:09

really talk about the big story,

0:11

tariffs. that is of course rocking

0:13

the markets globally, but that dear

0:15

listener is by design. We want

0:17

to give a little bit of

0:19

time for this story, which is

0:21

just changing so much by the

0:23

day and come with a more

0:25

fulsome discussion next week. We have

0:27

a great guest lined up to

0:29

talk about it, and hopefully there'll

0:31

be also a tad bit more clarity.

0:34

But now, let's get back to the

0:36

rest of this week's episode. Hello

0:39

and welcome back to the Times

0:41

tech podcast with me, Katie Prescott,

0:43

and you, Danny Fulton, Katie here

0:45

in the city and Danny in

0:47

the valley. Hello Katie. Hello, good to see

0:49

you. So what do you have for us

0:51

today? I have a question. Go on.

0:54

Have you ever watched Black Mirror

0:56

and thought, this terrifying bit of

0:58

technology that is ruining the fabric

1:00

of society? We should do that. This

1:02

is a really embarrassing admission

1:04

for a tech journalist, but I've actually

1:06

never seen Black Mirror. Oh my gosh.

1:09

I feel like I'm going to get

1:11

fired for admitting it. Yeah, keep on

1:13

doing it. Sorry. Well, so this obviously

1:15

will answer my next question, which is

1:18

going to be, have you ever watched

1:20

the episode called The Entire History of

1:22

You? Sounds very good, but no. So

1:24

I've asked Chad GBT to summarize this

1:27

episode for you. Big spoil alert

1:29

for any listeners. For you, Katie,

1:31

I will have to spoil it

1:33

because it's important for what we're

1:35

about to discuss today. Okay, spoil

1:37

away, go for it.

1:39

Okay, so I've asked

1:41

Chad GPT to make

1:44

this summary dramatic, insert

1:46

tense music, producer

1:48

Callum, in a world where

1:51

every moment is

1:53

recorded through a brain

1:55

implant called the grain.

1:58

I'm serious here. it

2:01

together. One man rewinds

2:03

his memories to uncover

2:05

the truth about his

2:07

marriage. But the more

2:09

he sees, the less he

2:11

can forget. And the truth

2:13

tears everything apart. In the

2:16

end, to forget is the

2:18

only freedom. Did I say like

2:20

a dude who's like, you know,

2:22

on the movie trailers? Yeah, you

2:24

could be in Netflix.

2:26

There's another job waiting

2:28

for you. So would you watch

2:31

that? Would you watch what I

2:33

just described? To uncover the truth.

2:35

Yeah, it sounds gripping. Good

2:37

story. Yeah. Question two,

2:39

the grain, the device that allows

2:42

Liam and Blackmear to replay his

2:44

entire life. What do you reckon?

2:46

Do you think this is a

2:48

good idea? Think you would buy?

2:51

Rewinding your memories to uncover

2:53

the truth about your marriage.

2:55

I mean, sounds like a

2:57

disaster waiting to happen. I

2:59

don't know that it's that

3:01

different to what we're doing

3:03

now, carrying mobile phones around,

3:05

but maybe I'm wrong. Fair, fair. Well,

3:07

today's guess I've been speaking

3:10

to is Dan Sorocher. He's

3:12

the founder of a company

3:14

called Limitless AI, and Limitless

3:16

have created something they call

3:19

the world's most wearable AI.

3:21

It's a magnetic brooch called

3:23

the Pendant. And according to

3:25

their website, remembers what you

3:28

say throughout the day from

3:30

in-person meetings, impromptu conversations and

3:32

personal insights. Personal insights.

3:35

Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, so many

3:37

questions. What's not to like? Now

3:39

in fairness to Dan, Pendant, unlike

3:41

the grain of black mirror, doesn't

3:44

film what you see, it only

3:46

records what you hear, and he

3:48

takes issue with the black mirror

3:50

comparison, but we'll get into that.

3:52

Okay, well I'm desperate to hear what

3:54

he has to say. Should we go

3:56

straight into it? Yeah, so let's do it.

3:59

Here he is Dan. broker of limitless AI?

4:01

My 20s, I started to go deaf.

4:03

I have a genetic condition called odosclerosis. And

4:05

when I tried a hearing aid, it was

4:07

magical. And it was magical for a few

4:09

reasons. One, I could hear again, which is

4:11

great. But the second, which is this big

4:13

insight I realized, is my hearing had gone

4:15

so bad, so gradually, that I didn't even

4:17

know what I was missing. For example, the

4:19

first time I turned a faucet on after

4:21

getting a hearing aid, I was like, in

4:23

shock, like, that makes sound, this high-pitched sound.

4:25

What's that racket? Yeah, if you didn't know

4:27

that faucets make sound, get your hearing checked.

4:29

But yeah, you turn a faucet on and

4:31

it makes this high-pitched sound. And like in

4:33

that moment, I had this epiphany. We are

4:35

living our lives with biological limitations, and we

4:37

don't even realize we're there. Now 12 years

4:39

later, for ways that technology can augment human

4:41

capabilities and give us superpowers. And that's what

4:43

it feels like to overcome your biological limitations.

4:45

That led me to memory. 90% of memories

4:47

are forgotten after a week, gets worse as

4:49

you get older, typically people's memory peak when

4:51

they're 20 years old, and then every year

4:53

they're after it's worse. So that's what we

4:55

mean by overcoming your biological limitations, your mind's

4:57

limitations, is to do the same thing a

4:59

hearing aid did for my hearing, but for

5:01

your mind, for your memory instead. So what

5:03

is the thing? The thing that you are,

5:05

for people who are not, who won't see

5:07

the video, you're wearing this little kind of,

5:09

it's about the size of a quarter-ish-ish? Yep.

5:11

That's kind of clipped, it looks like, magnetically

5:13

to your collar. That's right, yeah, it's clipped

5:15

magnetically to my collar. We also have a

5:17

necklace that goes with it. You can put

5:19

it on a little necklace, you know, jawbone

5:21

design here. And the idea behind the pendant

5:23

is it's a wearable AI device. You put

5:25

it on in the morning, you said and

5:27

forget it, I've worn it now every day,

5:29

every moment of every day for months, and

5:31

just like my hearing aid, I put it

5:34

on in the morning, I can't imagine living

5:36

a day without it. The same is probably

5:38

true for people with glasses. Could you imagine

5:40

going around your life without glasses? Maybe there's

5:42

some moments you would, but, and so the

5:44

same thing happens with the pendant. What the

5:46

pendant happens with the pendant happens with the

5:48

pendant happens with the pendant happens with it.

5:50

It could be as simple as a cute

5:52

thing your kid said. I have three young

5:54

kids and I capture cute things they say

5:56

all the time to maybe an action item

5:58

in a meeting or maybe you're listening to

6:00

a podcast like this one and a few

6:02

hours later think, what was actually that point

6:04

Dan was saying, what was actually that point

6:06

Dan was saying, what was the analogy he

6:08

was making? And now you can ask those

6:10

questions, anything that's on the tip of your,

6:12

if you've ever had this feeling of racking

6:14

your brain, like where was that, what was

6:16

that, what was that, what did I hear,

6:18

what did I hear, or you made me

6:20

connecting the dots, or you made me connecting

6:22

the dots, or you made me connecting the

6:24

dots, or you made me connecting the dots,

6:26

connecting the dots, or you made me connecting

6:28

the dots in your thoughts in your thoughts

6:30

in your thoughts in your past, or you

6:32

made me connecting the dots in your past,

6:34

or maybe connecting the dots in your past,

6:36

or maybe connecting the dots in your past,

6:38

or you made me connecting the So in

6:40

other words, it's effectively a listing device that

6:42

transforms your daily life into a searchable document.

6:44

Yeah, it's searchable, not just as searchable from

6:46

like a full-tech search, but really powered by

6:48

AI. You can ask questions of your past

6:50

in a way you can never do it

6:52

before. For example. Yeah, for example, you could

6:54

ask it, you know, I ask every morning,

6:56

actually, I've set it up to automatically give

6:58

me a push notification where I have this

7:00

prompt that says, better to be a better

7:02

co-worker, be a better parent, be a better,

7:04

you know, husband. Give me examples throughout my

7:06

day of ways where I could do that.

7:08

Give me, you know, one key takeaway. And

7:10

it'll give you these magical moments that you

7:12

don't even realize. You, you know, we all

7:14

can. Can you give me an example of

7:16

something that that the AI told you recently

7:18

that kind of judged you and said you

7:20

need to do this better? Sure, yeah. So

7:22

I actually put this out when I was

7:24

demoing this feature when we launched these daily

7:26

notifications, I ran it live on the recording

7:28

for the first time, so you could actually

7:30

even see my reaction when I see it

7:32

for the first time. And the advice you

7:34

gave me, the one concrete thing was, you

7:36

know, you could give more praise to your

7:38

team. And it gave three examples from just

7:40

that day, where in stand-up in the morning,

7:42

an engineer is talking about, boy, this is

7:44

really challenging, we overcame this, and I responded

7:46

with, okay, cool, and I moved on, where

7:48

I gave it specific language, say, hey, look,

7:50

if you had just responded with, that's how

7:52

I'm really challenging, you know, really appreciate you

7:54

putting the extra effort in, that would like

7:56

them as a leader, as a manager, those

7:59

moments of praise are things that I know,

8:01

I have a huge positive impact, thing as

8:03

a manager is a leader I could have

8:05

done better and I didn't know in the

8:07

moment I'm just moving on the next thing

8:09

I'm not paying attention where you know if

8:11

you're if you're watching a sporting event and

8:13

you know in American football somebody throws an

8:15

interception that quarterback is within minutes on the

8:17

sideline on the quarterback is within minutes on

8:19

the sideline looking at a printout of what

8:21

they missed what did they miss? Where was

8:23

that safety? They're just watching the game tape

8:25

on the iPad for your life and Many

8:27

times, the ones that hit home for me

8:29

are ways I could be more, pay more

8:31

attention as a dad, opportunities where my kid

8:33

says something and maybe missed it and, you

8:35

know, where I could go deeper. And so

8:37

yeah, it's become a key part of it.

8:39

It's a life coach for me, it's a

8:41

work coach. And until you have those concrete

8:43

examples, you don't even realize, I bet you

8:45

most of people listen to this, I'm doing

8:47

a pretty good job. There's nothing I could

8:49

do to improve. You'd be shocked if you

8:51

just look at one day of your life

8:53

and you could ask AI what you could

8:55

do better, you'd be shocked at what it

8:57

would come up with. And yeah, that's not

8:59

for everyone. Not everyone wants to be better

9:01

in life. But if you do, this is

9:03

magic. It feels like there's so bad. judgment

9:05

implicit and bad, well, you know, not everybody

9:07

wants to be better. Some people want to

9:09

be, you know, not very good. I would

9:11

say there's a spectrum of self-awareness and self-improvement.

9:13

And I'll give you a concrete example. When

9:15

we launched this feature, it pissed people off.

9:17

People got to push navigation in the morning

9:19

saying, how dare you? How dare you send

9:21

me a message? And you know, if that's

9:23

how they feel when they go back to

9:25

the conversations they've had in the conversations they've

9:27

had in the past, and it. Okay, maybe

9:29

we're not for them, but we would rather

9:31

lean into the people who are, you know,

9:33

wearing an aura ring. They're trying to be

9:35

better at what they do, and if they're

9:37

open to that, you know, this is, this

9:39

is not, most tech doesn't tell you ways

9:41

you can be better. Most tech ties to

9:43

play it safe. This is an example. We're

9:45

kind of leaning into play it safe. This

9:47

is an example. We're kind of leaning into

9:49

the edginess and the ability for us to

9:51

help people. How just it just because I

9:53

think the mechanics of this you know so

9:55

much of this is about design and how

9:57

it kind of lands on people as you

9:59

say when you launched a lot of it

10:01

made a lot of people angry so I

10:03

Let's say yesterday. I wear dependent all day,

10:05

the AI is surveilling, and then it comes

10:07

back, man, when Danny was hanging out with

10:09

his boys, he should have done this or

10:11

that, or he could have done this better,

10:13

whatever. I wake up, what does that push

10:15

notification look like? What is it called? Is

10:17

it like your daily self-improvement notice, and is

10:19

it, and how is that delivered? Yeah, so

10:21

you said by listening to the vice earlier

10:24

and surveil just now, and so you have

10:26

a connotation here that I just want to

10:28

address Which is, and I'll answer your question,

10:30

but first I just want to say, your

10:32

privacy and the privacy people you meet with

10:34

are very, very important. It is critical, critical

10:36

for our product to do well for you

10:38

and society at large. And I just want

10:40

to head that off, that this is not

10:42

a device that's not a device that's surveilling

10:44

you. There's no AI sitting there, like, you

10:46

know, twiddling as sons, oh, I wonder what

10:48

Dan's up to. This is a machine that

10:50

you're asking questions, there's no nefarious, nefarious, activity,

10:52

the things, the conversations you have with others

10:54

are shareable, you know, very often when I

10:56

meet somebody for the first time and I

10:58

say, hey, can I, can I wear this

11:00

thing? I'll capture the conversation, I don't have

11:02

to take notes, I'm happy to share it

11:04

with you afterwards. 100% of the time, people

11:06

are fine with it. I've had, I even

11:08

had a single person say to me, oh,

11:10

that's weird, I don't feel is because the

11:12

perception of a device like this is so

11:14

different than the reality, especially when I can

11:16

share the artifact. I can share the summary,

11:18

I can share the action names, I can

11:20

share the conversation, and that neutralizes it. Most

11:22

people get afraid of recording devices when it's

11:24

about control, when it's about cancelling me. Well,

11:26

what are you going to do with this

11:28

voice, you know, this conversation afterwards? And when

11:30

you tell them, look, is it just because

11:32

I care what you say, dude? I want

11:34

to know what you're going to say. I

11:36

want to remember it. I've got a kind

11:38

of a bad memory. It'd be really great,

11:40

you know, to be able to go back

11:42

to it afterwards if it's useful. And, you

11:44

know, maybe you say something seredipitously now that

11:46

I might not remember later. And I just,

11:48

I care about you and I want to

11:50

remember later, and I want to remember it,

11:52

and I want to remember it, and I

11:54

want to remember it, and I want to

11:56

remember it, and I want to remember it,

11:58

and I want to remember it, and I

12:00

want to remember it, and I want to

12:02

remember it, and I'll share about it, and

12:04

I want to remember it, and I want

12:06

to remember it, and I'll share about it,

12:08

and I want to remember it, and I

12:10

want to remember it, and I want to

12:12

remember it, and I'll share about it, and

12:14

I want to remember talking shit, and they're

12:16

like, one guy says, A, are you a

12:18

narc? But that's about it, literally, every single

12:20

moment, every single other day, for months, this

12:22

has not been an issue. But so since

12:24

we're here, because I was looking on your

12:26

website, and there's a lot about privacy and

12:28

how important it is, and how the lengths

12:30

to which you are going to kind of

12:32

ensure that this is kind of encrypted, and

12:34

nobody can hack it, etc. But. How does

12:36

that work? Because if you're wearing that, is

12:38

it on you as a wearer to be

12:40

like every time you have a conversation, every

12:42

time you walk into the supermarket, every time

12:44

you walk through the office to tell everybody,

12:46

hey, I've got this listening device, and everybody

12:49

cool with this? In other words, what is

12:51

the system or is there one? Because it

12:53

feels like right now it's relying on people

12:55

to be very... proactive and most people decide

12:57

that. Yeah, so we have a bunch of

12:59

something in our help center all about consent,

13:01

if you search for consent, we've got articles

13:03

and the thing in the app, we teach

13:05

users how to do this. And so I'll

13:07

say a couple things. One, there's a legal

13:09

bar for consent and then there's a much

13:11

higher moral, ethical, social, behavioral, social acceptance bar,

13:13

which is the one we want people to

13:15

adhere to. And the two magical things that

13:17

we have learned about that higher bar is

13:19

what I did earlier. I tell you why

13:21

I'm wearing it. It's because I want to

13:23

remember what you say. It's not about me

13:25

trying to cancel you. And I'm willing to

13:27

share it with you. Those two things I

13:29

think are the magic ingredients to social acceptance.

13:31

People are like, OK, cool. You're just an

13:33

honest person trying to be better, trying to

13:35

remember, and you're not going to lord this

13:37

over me. It's something we have a shared

13:39

artifact for. We have found that that actually,

13:41

we had all these technology solutions to this

13:43

problem. We thought about consent mode and all

13:45

the technology, and we have built a lot

13:47

of that, but we realize it's more of

13:49

a human thing. It's more of a the

13:51

way you introduce it thing, and that is

13:53

what unlocks the social acceptance. So when you

13:55

talk about those, there's a moral bar of

13:57

like just being straight with people. Yeah. And

13:59

then there's the legal bar. What's the legal

14:01

bar? So the legal bar is in every

14:03

country and state is different. But part of

14:05

the legal part is there's notion of presumption

14:07

of privacy. So if you're at a restaurant

14:09

or if you're at a sporting event, or

14:11

if you're at a sporting event, and you're

14:13

at a sporting event, and you're at a

14:15

sporting event, and you're at a sporting event,

14:17

and you're at a sporting event, take a

14:19

picture of me. So all the legal stuff

14:21

happens when there is a presumption of privacy.

14:23

In America, it's state by state. So in

14:25

America, you know, in one state, there's some

14:27

states that are called one party consent states,

14:29

where the person who's wearing it is the

14:31

party, they have to, they have to consent

14:33

states, where the person who's wearing it is

14:35

the party, they have to consent, and they

14:37

have to, and they have to consent, and

14:39

that's where the person who's wearing it is

14:41

the party, they have to, they have to,

14:43

they have to, they have a higher bar.

14:45

you can tell them, hey, you have to

14:47

tell them legally that you're going to record

14:49

them and get their consent. And so that

14:51

is, that's sort of the legal bar, but

14:53

again, that's much lower than the higher bar.

14:55

And the higher bar again is just. being

14:57

a good person. It's being a good person

14:59

and explaining the why behind the device and

15:01

you know most people you tend to think

15:03

I mean maybe you as you know you

15:05

interview a lot of new people most people's

15:07

worlds are pretty small they interact with their

15:09

family their coworkers their friends it's not like

15:11

a thousand new people you meet their coworkers

15:14

their friends it's not like a thousand new

15:16

people you meet every day so you have

15:18

a thousand new people you meet every day

15:20

so you have a thousand new people you

15:22

meet every day. This is why for most

15:24

people listening, we're like, oh, this is weird.

15:26

Why would I do that? Imagine a world

15:28

before Uber. You got in. And I told

15:30

you, look, I've got an idea for a

15:32

company. You're going to get into a random

15:34

person's car that you were matched with on

15:36

the internet. Random person. You never met this

15:38

person. You never met this person. You're going

15:40

to get in this person. You never met

15:42

this person. You're going to get in their

15:44

person. You're going to get this. You manually

15:46

ratche on the internet. within minutes, like that

15:48

would have been shocking. And the first time

15:50

you write an Uber ride, you're like, oh,

15:52

this is kind of neat. So you're all

15:54

your perception, your concerns, your fears go away

15:56

as soon as you try it. And the

15:58

same thing is the true of the pendant.

16:00

As soon as you feel that magical moment

16:02

of being able to go back to a

16:04

moment in your past and see the ways

16:06

you could have. been better or done better

16:08

or even just remember something that you would

16:10

have otherwise forgotten or that cute thing. The

16:12

first time your kid says, I love you,

16:14

that was one of the first things we

16:16

got from a customer is like, hey, I

16:18

was wearing this pendant with my one-year-old on

16:20

a swing. They turned around and they said,

16:22

I love you for the first time. They

16:24

were able to capture that moment. They were

16:26

able to capture that moment with a pendant.

16:28

They were able to capture that moment with

16:30

a pendant. They were able to that I

16:32

love you for the first time. They were

16:34

able to capture and they said, they said,

16:36

they said, I love, I love you, I

16:38

love you, I love you, I love you,

16:40

I love you, I love you, I love

16:42

you, I love you, I love you, I

16:44

love you, I, I love you, I love

16:46

you, I love you, I, I, I love

16:48

you, I, I, I love you, I love

16:50

you, I love you, I, No, the whole

16:52

world. Yeah. Whole world. And so are there

16:54

any, and I don't know if you know

16:56

the south top of the head because the

16:58

world's a big place, but like what, what,

17:00

if any, differences there are in terms of

17:02

what you can and can't do or have

17:04

to and have to not do in the

17:06

UK in terms of privacy consent, etc. Yeah,

17:08

I'm not an expert on the UK. I

17:10

have seen, though, that America tends to be

17:12

actually more restrictive and more legalistic here. And

17:14

even socially, it's like, even the word consent

17:16

is actually a very loaded word. There's a

17:18

lot of other connotations for the consent. There's

17:20

a lot of other connotations for the consent.

17:22

There's nothing to do with recording. So that

17:24

brings in sort of this baggage, this conception

17:26

that I do think creates a very high

17:28

perceived concern, but reality when you tried the

17:30

phone call. And that's totally fine. You just

17:32

have, oh, I won't record this call. It

17:34

doesn't do the beeping thing. It just records

17:36

the call. People realize, okay, cool. I'm going

17:38

to funk all. So it is, you know,

17:41

it is kind of this social, contractual artifact.

17:43

It's actually, the roots of it are in

17:45

government surveillance. It's nothing to do with me

17:47

capturing. It's the government. It's protecting you from

17:49

your own government. You know, that's why you

17:51

need one party consenting. So the government can't.

17:53

So the government can't surveiluse. I

17:56

want to talk about the business a bit.

17:58

So you, when did you launch this company

18:00

or what did you? start this whole thing?

18:02

So this company actually is five years old.

18:04

We started with a very different idea and

18:06

we've pivoted now a few times. We just

18:08

announced the pendant October 23. We're now just

18:11

delivering on these pendants. So it's been a

18:13

while since we announced it. built it, we've

18:15

mass produced it, we have a whole factory

18:17

set up in China, mass produced these things,

18:19

shipping them out now. So we've got thousands

18:21

of these going out, you know, every week.

18:24

Well, I was going to say, so how

18:26

many are like out in the wild and

18:28

like how far along in that kind of

18:30

trajectory are you and actually getting this out

18:32

in the world and kind of, because that's.

18:34

to prove the puddings in the eating, right?

18:36

Yeah, I would say we unequivocally have product

18:39

market fit and having now searched for that

18:41

in five for five years, it feels really

18:43

good to be able to say that. Oh

18:45

my gosh, were we out in the desert

18:47

looking for ways to get there? And this

18:49

is not my first rodeo, so my first

18:52

company. Optimizely, it actually got product market fit

18:54

very quickly. So I have not been used

18:56

to spending years and years of my life

18:58

trying to build something that people want and

19:00

failing. So finally, I think we've achieved that.

19:02

And you know, obviously there's degrees of product

19:04

market fit. This is not, you know, chat

19:07

TV that's got hundreds of millions of users

19:09

in a few months. But it's tapping into

19:11

something really human and we've been thrilled with

19:13

the results. You know, we've got thousands of

19:15

these out in the results. that this isn't

19:17

just a tape recorder. This isn't just a

19:20

tape recorder in the cloud. There's a lot

19:22

of products out there that you can use

19:24

voice memos. We sort of made this conscious

19:26

bed. If we build a product with this

19:28

premise that people are going to set and

19:30

forget it, they want to carry it and

19:32

wear it without having to annotate their day,

19:35

without having to turn it on and off,

19:37

it just sort of organizes your life for

19:39

you. That's something I didn't mention. It sort

19:41

of organizes everything you've said and heard into

19:43

this life. It's sort of organizes everything you've

19:45

said and heard into this. It's like, it's

19:48

everything you've said and heard into this. It's

19:50

like, it's everything you've said, it's everything you've

19:52

said, it's everything you've said, it's everything you've

19:54

said, it's everything you've said, it's everything you've

19:56

said, it's everything you've said, it's everything you've

19:58

said, you've said, you've said, and heard, and

20:00

heard, and heard, and heard, and heard, it's

20:03

everything you've said, and heard, it's everything you've

20:05

said, and heard, and heard, and heard, and

20:07

heard, and heard, it's But passively, it just

20:09

captures my day. And that premise has really,

20:11

really paid. I think people really value that.

20:13

They're busy. They want something that just can

20:16

help them be a little bit better and

20:18

we can do that. What's the gender breakdown

20:20

of people buying this thing? Is it mostly

20:22

dudes? It is mostly dudes. That is a

20:24

good question. I'm curious why you ask. It

20:26

does skew mail. And that might be a

20:28

byproduct of just social media. And like, you

20:31

know, I'm not on Instagram or other, I'm

20:33

mostly on Twitter slash X and that's now

20:35

skewed very mail. So I do think that's

20:37

more a byproduct of where we've been. We

20:39

had a couple of early adopters use us

20:41

and put videos on and put videos on

20:44

viral viral on Instagram. So maybe that's we're

20:46

getting more more of a more of a

20:48

gender-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a personal question. Are you married or have

20:50

a partner? I am married. Yeah, with three

20:52

kids. What does your wife think of this?

20:54

Great question. My very first thought when I

20:56

had this idea for the pennant many, many

20:59

years ago was fear. I was terrified. My

21:01

wife would hate this idea. My wife would

21:03

hate this idea. And so she's very honest,

21:05

very like she's my both my biggest fan

21:07

and I think most honest critic. It captured

21:09

conversations. And my fear was she would hate

21:12

it because now I would finally win arguments

21:14

and she would lose a few. And it

21:16

turned out it was the opposite. She, I

21:18

think, before I did, realized the power of

21:20

clarity, that conflict and miscommunication comes from misremembering.

21:22

Oh, no, you didn't say you're going to

21:25

do that. Oh, I did say that I

21:27

was going to do that. When you have

21:29

a record, we have a conversation, you can

21:31

go back to it. You have this magical

21:33

ability to remove ambiguity, to remove miscommunication. And

21:35

so she saw it long before I did,

21:37

and she's the most private, if she watches

21:40

it, she's gonna be, so she's the most

21:42

private person I know, she doesn't want me

21:44

to talk about her, but like that was

21:46

actually the first people who I talk about

21:48

this idea and kind of lit me up,

21:50

actually maybe this is better for relationships in

21:53

society. Well, I was gonna say because to

21:55

your point, often conflicts are, well, you said

21:57

this, like, You know, being right doesn't mean

21:59

you're always, quote unquote, have won the argument.

22:01

And so I'm just wondering like how this

22:03

fits, like, have you used this to solve

22:05

conflicts in your own life? Because there is

22:08

that kind of, let's call it a misalignment

22:10

of like the record around what was actually

22:12

said or not said. I will give you

22:14

a very concrete example. I tweeted this out

22:16

six days ago. Me. You said you would

22:18

do your homework right after dinner. My six-year-old.

22:21

No, I didn't. me. Do you want me

22:23

to play back what you said from the

22:25

pendant? Six-year-old. Okay, fine. I'll do my homework.

22:27

So, one example, you know, of getting your

22:29

kid to follow through and commitment when there's

22:31

no ambiguity in what was said. You know,

22:33

that was a small example, but I do

22:36

think, you know, he should know that when

22:38

he says something, his word should be impeccable.

22:40

It's, he can't just make it up and

22:42

change it after the fact. The pendant can

22:44

help hold him. And how much money have

22:46

you guys raised? With 33 million from great

22:49

investors, first investor with Sam Altman, before he

22:51

became Sam Altman, although he's always in the

22:53

same Altman. Then first round capital did our

22:55

seed round, Arguess Pre-Seed, then Andreessen Horowitz, at

22:57

our seed, and NEA led our series A.

22:59

Do you think you're ever going to get

23:01

past the black mirror effect? Because I mean,

23:04

I'm sure you've been asked a version of

23:06

this question a billion times, but I'm and

23:08

I'm sure you've seen the famous episode I

23:10

think it's in the eye that's in it's

23:12

a recording device in that someone's eye and

23:14

they their whole life is basically one long

23:17

video recording the guy goes back sees there

23:19

is a little something between his wife and

23:21

a friend at a dinner party and that

23:23

leaves a bunch of questions and ultimately comes

23:25

out. She's cheated and he ends up like.

23:27

alone depressed. It's all very dystopian because he's

23:29

like, I can see the evidence. Anyway, it

23:32

gets to that idea that I think, you

23:34

know, a lot of companies out here, there's

23:36

a question of like, well, can. we build

23:38

this thing? The answer is often yes. The

23:40

next question is, should we build this thing?

23:42

Do people want it? Or is this going

23:45

to be too creepy? Whatever it may be.

23:47

So how do you guys think about that

23:49

kind of social piece? Is this a thing

23:51

that people are actually going to want? Beyond

23:53

like a very small core of enthusiasts. I

23:55

will tell you with 100% certainty this is

23:57

the future I have felt the power 100%

24:00

certainty there will be millions if not billions

24:02

of people on this planet wearing this or

24:04

one of our competitors in years to come.

24:06

Why are you so convicted? Because of the

24:08

fundamental inside I have, have now worn it,

24:10

is that we all live our lives with

24:13

blinders on, we don't even realize it. Once

24:15

you feel what it's like to go back

24:17

to a moment, you've had from your past,

24:19

that you didn't realize you were living life

24:21

to its fullest in the moment, you can't

24:23

go back to its fullest in the moment.

24:25

I cannot go back. I cannot realize you

24:28

were living life to its fullest in the

24:30

moment. I cannot go back. I cannot imagine

24:32

a single life to its fullest in the

24:34

moment. You can't go back. You realize you

24:36

are living life to its fullest in the

24:38

fullest in the moment. You are living life

24:41

to its fullest in the moment. You can't.

24:43

You can't. You are living life to its

24:45

fullest in the moment. You can't. You can't.

24:47

You are living life to its fullest in

24:49

the moment. You can't. You're its fullest in

24:51

the moment. You can't. You are living life

24:53

to its fullest in the moment. You can't.

24:56

You can't. You can't. No, you could argue,

24:58

OK, is that good for my brain? Is

25:00

that to be outsourced? But the same thing

25:02

is I don't know people's phone numbers anymore.

25:04

I just type in their name. That's fine.

25:06

Whatever. So I'm convinced with 100% certainty that

25:09

millions, if not billions of people will wear

25:11

this. It's early. And every new technology goes

25:13

through these phases of these phases of people

25:15

will wear this. It's early. And every new

25:17

technology goes through these phases. This idea that

25:19

the wife captured these these cheating affair with

25:21

you know without this and then lied about

25:24

it where it's like if you know in

25:26

a world that there's a track record just

25:28

like you know with my wife now I

25:30

don't I know that hey if something was

25:32

said I have a record I can go

25:34

back to it. I don't lie I never

25:37

lie I know that there's an impeccable truth

25:39

behind it it changes your behavior in a

25:41

positive way not you know you don't gas

25:43

light people if you've been gas lit you

25:45

can go back and say hey hold back

25:47

and say hold on what actually So I

25:49

think the benefits to the person wearing it

25:52

are clear. The benefits to society at large

25:54

is clear. But it's weird. I know it's

25:56

weird. I'm not I'm not immune to that.

25:58

It just like it sounds like what you're

26:00

saying is like on this idea that millions

26:02

and eventually billions of people are going to

26:05

wear this thing. What you're talking about is

26:07

because it's going to in that part of

26:09

that bargain is changing kind of the fundamental

26:11

nature of humans and how they interact. Yeah,

26:13

fundamentally. It helps you in a way. This

26:15

is like glasses and hearing. It's like, you

26:17

know, you could live your life without glasses,

26:20

but why would you? I could live my

26:22

life without perfect memory, but why would I?

26:24

And I think the thing that was a

26:26

surprise to me was how clearly the disconnect

26:28

between perception and realities once you wear it,

26:30

and the other major surprise, I didn't know

26:33

how having wearing it, the whole team wears

26:35

it. I was expecting maybe half my conversations

26:37

to be awkward, and it's every time I

26:39

have to like, I have to like, I

26:41

have to like, I have to like, I

26:43

have to like, like, like, like, like, like,

26:45

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

26:48

like, like, like, like, like, like, It completely

26:50

neutralizes that. So once I had seen that,

26:52

I really, okay, the bar to this being

26:54

accepted isn't that one-to-one kind of awkwardness. It's

26:56

people getting over their own. perceive concerns just

26:58

like the Uber. You try Uber one time,

27:01

you get over the fact that it's a

27:03

random guy from the internet. And that same

27:05

thing is true of this pendant. So, you

27:07

know, I hope it's us, I don't know

27:09

if it's us, I'm sure at some point

27:11

Apple and Google and they're all going to

27:13

make these things. Right now, the beautiful and

27:16

they're all going to make these things. Right

27:18

now, the beautiful and they're all going to

27:20

make these things. Right. Right. Right. And they're

27:22

all going to make these things. They're all

27:24

going to make these things. They're all going

27:26

to make these things. They're all going to

27:29

make these things. They're all going to make

27:31

these things. They're all going to make these

27:33

things. They're all going to make these things.

27:35

They're all going to make these things. They're

27:37

all going to make these things. They're all

27:39

going to make these things. They're all going

27:42

to make these things. They're all going to

27:44

make these things. These you know, we've built

27:46

a new category of technology that people realize,

27:48

hey, there's some utility here, and I can't

27:50

imagine life without it. Feel free, if this

27:52

age is like milk, I would be very

27:54

surprised. Whoever's listening, if the year is 2035

27:57

and there are millions of people wearing devices

27:59

like this, maybe not from us, maybe from

28:01

our competitors, feel free to send me in,

28:03

you know, hey Dan, this age like milk,

28:05

your prediction was wrong, your 100% confidence was

28:07

ill- I just think the, you know, to

28:10

your point, there is, you know, who would

28:12

have thought that, you know, 25 years ago

28:14

when the internet first arrived that all of

28:16

a sudden we'd be walking around with super

28:18

computers that we're just obsessed with and staring

28:20

at all day in our pockets. That then

28:22

would have seemed like an impossibility, you know,

28:25

because it was like a big deal when

28:27

Bill Gates said, you know, we're gonna have

28:29

a desktop on every and everybody in every

28:31

home. People like, no, that's crazy. So I'm

28:33

willing to accept a premise that, you know,

28:35

we don't know how things are going to

28:38

go. But I think the fundamental issue around,

28:40

oh, just like, you know, it's a bit

28:42

like CCTV in the UK. So maybe this

28:44

is an apropos example, you know, CCTV is

28:46

literally everywhere in the UK. You know, there's

28:48

like the famous saying, like, if you want

28:50

to go through central London, there's never, there's

28:53

almost nowhere where you can go where you're

28:55

not on film. But this

28:57

fundamental issue around consent and just relying

28:59

on people to be good people about

29:02

it and to be really assiduous about

29:04

it in every time they go and

29:06

meet a new person, every time they're

29:08

going out on a date, whatever, they'll

29:11

be like, hey, do you mind if

29:13

we record this conversation? But I'm only

29:15

doing this because I think, you know,

29:18

I care about you. I just don't

29:20

think that's realistic. But maybe I just

29:22

don't have enough faith in humanity. Yeah,

29:24

maybe. I don't think it's a faith

29:27

in humanity thing, because I would even

29:29

argue that, what's the worst that could

29:31

happen? Like, honestly, people have, there's a

29:34

psychological trait, people have, that the whole

29:36

world rolls around them. Like, what you

29:38

say really doesn't matter. You know, honestly,

29:40

what if somebody posted on the internet,

29:43

like, I'm not if I'm not cynical

29:45

about it, but I do think they

29:47

like to think they're more important than

29:49

they really are, and they like what

29:52

they say is super important. and your

29:54

words are going to be canceled, and

29:56

AI could have made it. AI automatic

29:59

generating voice clones are just as good

30:01

as humans. So honestly, even if we

30:03

don't... We're going to live in a

30:05

world where like what you say doesn't

30:08

really matter like it almost like you're

30:10

yelling into the into a wind that

30:12

nobody really hears you. So I just

30:15

think there's so much it's a little

30:17

bit of I think a Luddite mindset

30:19

that like oh like you know. And

30:21

it's also not the government. It's not

30:24

sort of government surveilling you. And that

30:26

to me is much more scary than

30:28

your friend who just wants to sincerely

30:30

remember your conversation with you. I much

30:33

more trust my friends than the government

30:35

with CCTV. And the fact that CCTV

30:37

even, that kind of, that would surprise

30:40

me more that societies would be acceptance

30:42

of that, than individuals who are just

30:44

trying to be better and remember what

30:46

you say. So maybe I'm wrong. Who

30:49

knows? I'll just say just say. This

30:51

is the worst this technology will ever

30:53

be. Every day it's getting better. Soon,

30:56

by being able to capture what you

30:58

say, there's a fundamental thing that I

31:00

didn't mention that I think is important.

31:02

LLLMs are getting smarter and smarter, but

31:05

still know nothing about you. You know,

31:07

maybe they remember your chat history, but

31:09

like they don't know the conversations you

31:11

have. Soon, independent will enable you to

31:14

basically draft emails exactly like I would.

31:16

So instead of me having to write

31:18

from a blank piece of paper, just

31:21

drafts the email just like I would.

31:23

So instead of me having to write

31:25

from a blank piece of paper, just

31:27

drafts the email. Maybe after this conversation

31:30

will draft me and email, say, hey,

31:32

thanks for having me, we talk about

31:34

this, this, and the link you should

31:37

look, here, you should look, knowing, knowing

31:39

the context of what I've actually, Eventually,

31:41

it'll do the boring half of your

31:43

job for you. I'm a big believer

31:46

in LOM's augmenting human intelligence, not replacing

31:48

human intelligence, and eventually you should just

31:50

do agentic behavior identically to me. And

31:53

if we get to those use cases,

31:55

oh my gosh, then how can you

31:57

imagine living life without it? I don't

31:59

know what to do with that. There's

32:02

a lot to talk about. Can we

32:04

start with his enthusiasm? I don't think

32:06

I've ever heard anyone who's so... Completely

32:08

optimistic and I don't know what the

32:11

word is, you know, sort of self-driven

32:13

in the, in really, really bloody believing

32:15

in this thing. And he didn't seem

32:18

to be able to, even when you

32:20

were talking about the consent issue, see

32:22

the issue, see the problem. Well, the

32:24

thing that struck to me is he's

32:27

both totally optimistic. about, yeah, hey, just

32:29

ask nicely and it's all gonna work,

32:31

but also totally nihilistic as well. I'm

32:34

just being like, well, in the future,

32:36

there's gonna be so much AI and

32:38

nobody's going to know who's really saying

32:40

anything. So you're not that important. What

32:43

you say is a matter. Yeah, you're

32:45

just shouting into the wind. And actually

32:47

that's total nonsense. A lot of what

32:49

people say, a lot of the time

32:52

matters a lot. It might not if

32:54

you're just wondering around in your day-to-day

32:56

personal life, sure, but in the workplace,

32:59

it's hugely important a lot of the

33:01

time. People are dealing with really sensitive

33:03

conversations. Yeah. And the idea that it

33:05

just completely depends on the individual wearing

33:08

it to put their hand up and

33:10

say, would you mind? Well, this is

33:12

what I found so interesting. Yeah, because

33:15

he was like, look. We tried all

33:17

these different technological kind of fixes we'll

33:19

call them to kind of handle the

33:21

consent issue and Lo and behold we

33:24

couldn't figure it out or nothing quite

33:26

worked and so the solution we ended

33:28

up on was Hey person who's spent

33:31

$200 on this device anytime you meet

33:33

somebody just say how much you care

33:35

about them and you just are really

33:37

trying to be a better person and

33:40

that's why you want to record this

33:42

conversation Like that's just so wildly unrealistic,

33:44

it feels like to me. And the

33:46

fact that like, oh, we couldn't actually

33:49

crack this very, very hard problem, so

33:51

we're gonna shift the responsibility back on

33:53

the user in a way that's completely

33:56

informal and not trackable and not enforceable.

33:58

It just, I was just like, oh.

34:00

And very discreet. I mean, you could

34:02

argue, well, and he might argue, well,

34:05

if you were going to record somebody

34:07

secretly, you could do it any way

34:09

you wanted. You could. And of course

34:12

you could, but the fact is this

34:14

is actually deliberately a device that's made

34:16

to do that. It's made to capture

34:18

the whole of your life. And if

34:21

you think about Meta's glasses, they have

34:23

a little flashing light, because they record

34:25

everything as well, can do, but they

34:27

have a light. to show that they

34:30

are recording. You'd think that they would

34:32

have designed something on the little badge,

34:34

like a red light that went bing.

34:37

You would think, you would think. And

34:39

I also think it's just so interesting

34:41

that all, you know, this company is

34:43

not alone. There's a bunch of companies

34:46

trying to figure out what is there

34:48

gonna be the quote unquote, you know,

34:50

the AIA wearable, the thing that's going

34:53

to like supplant or at least become

34:55

a companion to our smartphones phones or

34:57

whatever. I mean his prediction that. In

34:59

2035, there would be billions of people

35:02

wearing an AI microphone. What do you

35:04

think about that? I can't, I can't

35:06

say it happening. Can you? But I

35:09

do find it fascinating that he got

35:11

money from Sam Altman before he was

35:13

Sam Altman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because actually

35:15

that when I heard him talking, that

35:18

was my question. I thought, wow, Danny's

35:20

got an interviewed Tigger. I don't know,

35:22

but he's got serious people behind him.

35:24

Yeah, he's got real money. Real money

35:27

and real people. Yeah, totally. And when

35:29

I reported out a story on this,

35:31

so I talked to a few people

35:34

and I found another company who he

35:36

referred to that didn't make into the

35:38

cut. They're called Friend.com. And it's the

35:40

same thing. It's like a little circular

35:43

listening device, but you can wear it

35:45

as a necklace. And the founder is

35:47

22 years old. And they put out

35:50

this like 90 second ad. And it's

35:52

all young people and it like opens

35:54

with this like woman, she's hiking, she

35:56

reaches a peak of something and then

35:59

she just starts talking to like, she's

36:01

by herself, she's talking to nobody or

36:03

whatever. And then she says something and

36:05

then she gets a text. And the

36:08

text is from her listening device, her

36:10

friend. who has commented on what she

36:12

said and then she responds. And then

36:15

the next vignette is like somebody playing

36:17

video games and like the little friend

36:19

says, oh you're getting your butt kicked

36:21

or whatever. Ha ha ha ha. The

36:24

friend necklace. Yes. And then the third

36:26

one is this woman is on a

36:28

date and she was about to start

36:31

talking to her friend because I guess

36:33

you can kind of touch it which

36:35

activates it or says something or whatever.

36:37

And then she stops because she's having

36:40

such a wonderful time on this date.

36:42

And it's like this supposed to be

36:44

this profound moment. But the whole point

36:47

is, is like an AI wearable friend

36:49

that has a personality, it has a

36:51

name, and it listens to your life

36:53

because you're wearing it as a necklace,

36:56

and then sends you text messages kind

36:58

of throughout the day or whatever to

37:00

kind of have a conversation as if

37:02

your friend is with you. Do you

37:05

think Kim, the art generation maybe has

37:07

different views on privacy? I mean is

37:09

that you think one of the things

37:12

here, because the idea for us of

37:14

walking around and recording our entire lives

37:16

is terrible, but maybe if you're more

37:18

used to growing up in a social

37:21

media area where you document everything and

37:23

you carry your phone everywhere, it's less

37:25

of a deal. Your whole life is

37:28

mediated by a screen anyway, and so

37:30

the idea of like an AI friend,

37:32

for example, that's constantly talking to you.

37:34

And the interesting thing about the friend,

37:37

and then you're back to a little

37:39

bit less, but friend, but friend is

37:41

if you lose the device. You lose

37:43

everything. There is no backup. I.e. it's

37:46

kind of supposed to be like a

37:48

person. Oh, so it literally dies and

37:50

that's it. Basically, yeah. Well, that's one

37:53

of the things I like about technology.

37:55

That it doesn't do that. Oh, well.

37:57

But back to limitless, I just think

37:59

the, uh, I'm trying to figure out

38:02

how they're trying to sell it because

38:04

he's like... it's a life coach it

38:06

makes it's making me a better person

38:09

it's making me a better like worker

38:11

or whatever you're like that bit was

38:13

wild by the way what was that

38:15

about he goes through i mean i

38:18

don't think i think he uses it

38:20

because he's taken an optimistic in a

38:22

different way to the way most people

38:25

would use it Well, that's what I'm

38:27

saying. Like, is this a solution looking

38:29

for a problem? I mean, billions of

38:31

people, I just don't buy it. Like,

38:34

you know, millions of people, I don't

38:36

buy it. It's very easy to just

38:38

like it off. I can see why

38:40

a hundred percent recording all your life

38:43

could be really, really useful. You know,

38:45

like all of the work conversations you

38:47

have. I know sometimes. I speak to

38:50

sources and I would love to be

38:52

able to recall what they say, but

38:54

I don't because they don't want me

38:56

to and it's not ethical, but I

38:59

can see how, you know, or just

39:01

generally when you're engaging with your kids,

39:03

like I can see why it could

39:06

be useful. I just, it makes me

39:08

feel really squeamish. And yeah, just the

39:10

idea that like when he gave the

39:12

example of talking to his kid, and

39:15

it's like, do you want me to

39:17

call up God? and say, hey God,

39:19

what did it, what did little Timmy

39:21

say? But also the idea in an

39:24

argument with your partner that, you know,

39:26

when you go, well, you said this,

39:28

you said that, oh, well, let's get

39:31

the dependent out and check what you

39:33

really did. Say, ah, I mean, most

39:35

people know in that situation. Well, that's

39:37

what I was saying, like, even if

39:40

you win, you're gonna lose that argument,

39:42

I think you know, be right. But

39:44

you're going to be sleeping on the

39:47

couch, my friend. Life is a bit

39:49

more subtle. I found him quite endearing.

39:51

It's like boundless enthusiasm for this idea.

39:53

Well, the other thing I would say

39:56

is that he has a previous company

39:58

optimisely. Like, I think that when you

40:00

talk about, you know, getting backing from

40:03

Sam Altman Andrews and Horowitz and other

40:05

companies, like, nothing will get you funded

40:07

quicker than a previous success. So. His

40:09

other company did well. This is his

40:12

next go around and so again it

40:14

kind of just it's a little insight

40:16

into how this place works Silicon Valley

40:18

is that even if your idea is

40:21

totally loony tune if you shown that

40:23

you can do this if you've, you're

40:25

very likely to get money. People get

40:28

their wallets out. Yeah, exactly. Maybe it

40:30

is something that if everybody wore one

40:32

and if there is that universality to

40:34

it that he thinks there's going to

40:37

be, I'm looking forward to you going

40:39

back to him about the milk. I

40:41

think, honestly, I think it is going

40:44

to age like milk. But if you

40:46

knew everybody was wearing one, then it

40:48

would make you act in a very

40:50

different way, wouldn't it? Well, that's what

40:53

he's saying. He's like, you know, basically

40:55

everybody would be different. And you're kind

40:57

of like, okay, this is, we're doing,

40:59

we're trying to do too much here.

41:02

We're not changing humans. No. Because all

41:04

of a sudden, oh, no one's gonna

41:06

gas light, anybody anymore. And no one's

41:09

gonna lie. And you're like. Yeah, so

41:11

I but but again, it's a little

41:13

insight into the kind of that uber

41:15

optimism That often you find in this

41:18

place He's an awesome. I think he

41:20

used to be based out here, but

41:22

um either way So I thought it

41:25

was a kind of a fun conversation

41:27

Obviously, it was a great conversation Thank

41:29

you for sharing it. So you're not

41:31

gonna go get you're not gonna rush

41:34

out and get one. That's what you're

41:36

saying not quite yet. Maybe when everyone

41:38

else has one in ten years time.

41:41

How about you Did you give you

41:43

one? No. No. Well, he did. He

41:45

encouraged me to like, you know, have

41:47

a go. But I'm a real late

41:50

adopter of everything, basically. Are you? Yeah.

41:52

When did you get an iPhone? Oh,

41:54

late. I didn't get my first cell

41:56

phone, mobile phone, until I was 25?

41:59

At all. Not even like a dumb

42:01

phone. No. My first Nokia brick was

42:03

in my mid 20s. Wow. Yeah. My

42:06

best friend told me the other day

42:08

she's still got her AOL account. Yeah,

42:10

see that's the thing. If you have

42:12

an AOL account, you... There's a lot.

42:15

You need to be conscious of what

42:17

that says about you. I know. It's

42:19

like having a hot mail account. Or

42:22

driving a really old car. That's fine.

42:24

Before we go, a very important bit

42:26

of news to cover. What's happened with

42:28

the tadpoles? Oh, the tadpoles. They're almost

42:31

growing legs. Weren't they almost growing legs?

42:33

Two weeks ago? I thought they were

42:35

in it so now that was poo.

42:37

Put that on a t-shirt. So I

42:40

now put little bits of bacon into

42:42

the tank and they go for it

42:44

like devils. Oh wow. It's horrible. What

42:47

are you going to do with all

42:49

these frogs once they're frogs? Well, while

42:51

you are starting your coding company, I'm

42:53

going to start my frog selling business.

42:56

Oh, right, right, right, right. Massive to

42:58

large. Yeah, yeah. Millions or billions of

43:00

people will have frogs in the future.

43:03

Everyone in Southeast London.