0:02

Hi, thanks for listening to the Tony

0:04

Robbins podcast. This is just a quick

0:06

note about this episode in case you'd

0:08

rather watch and see the video of

0:10

this conversation. That's found

0:13

at youtube.com backslash Tony

0:15

Robbins live. You'd

0:17

like to listen? You're in the right place. Okay.

0:20

Here's Tony. Ladies

0:25

and gentlemen, stand up and give it up for Eckhart

0:27

Tolle. Eckhart,

0:32

it's nice to meet you from a distance. I

0:34

look forward to that being in person sometime soon.

0:36

I've respected you so much. There are so many

0:38

people in the spiritual community that are

0:40

in it for things other than actually the

0:42

mission. You've walked this talk and lived this

0:44

and just a beautiful soul. So thank you

0:46

for joining us. Another big hand for Eckhart.

0:52

Thank you so much for inviting

0:54

me. I'm very happy and

0:58

honored to be able to make

1:00

a small contribution to

1:03

this wonderful event. And

1:07

as a gentle transition

1:10

from the high intensity

1:12

of doing, I'd invite

1:20

you to not lose

1:22

this high intensity of

1:25

energy, but

1:28

to direct it to

1:31

an alert awareness of

1:35

being. The

1:38

two polarities that are vital

1:41

to be aware of in life, doing

1:46

and being. Now,

1:51

I remember a few years ago, I was

1:55

talking to Oprah about

1:57

Tony Robbins and.

2:01

the good work he's doing. And suddenly

2:03

the idea came to me, I said,

2:06

Tony is a teacher of doing,

2:08

but he is not unaware of

2:10

being. And

2:13

I teach primarily being, but

2:16

I'm not unaware of the importance

2:18

of doing. So

2:21

perhaps one day we could

2:24

do an event together and

2:26

I would take his

2:28

part, I

2:30

would teach for half an hour

2:33

doing, and he could take

2:36

my part, he would sit in a

2:38

chair perhaps where a little vest like

2:40

I usually wear. And

2:42

he could teach being, wouldn't

2:44

that be wonderful? I

2:46

think Tony likes that idea. I'm in

2:48

Eckhart, I'm in. Great.

2:52

So let's become aware

2:54

then of

2:56

this, perhaps

3:01

the most vital thing in spiritual

3:03

life is, oh,

3:10

by the way, before I continue, I

3:14

expect this talk to be a

3:16

hybrid between a meditation and

3:19

a talk. I don't

3:21

know how much of it

3:24

will be memorable, but

3:26

that's not important here. Just,

3:32

I don't think you need to refer a

3:34

lot to your notes

3:36

or devices that

3:39

you have, just

3:42

there's not much to remember. There

4:04

is in the Old Testament,

4:06

a very surprising statement

4:08

early on in the book of

4:10

Exodus, when Moses

4:14

asks God, who

4:18

are you or what is your name?

4:22

That God gives the amazing

4:25

and mysterious answer, I am,

4:27

that I am. Which

4:33

is sometimes translated as I

4:35

am, what I am, or

4:39

sometimes translated as I am, who

4:43

I am. My

4:45

favorite translation, the most accurate one I

4:47

believe is I am the I am.

4:53

And then Moses

4:56

says when I talk to my people, so

4:59

what shall I tell them? Who sent

5:02

me to them? And God

5:04

said, tell them

5:06

that I am sent you. This

5:11

is an amazing statement

5:13

if you realize the deep

5:15

meaning of it, because

5:17

it refers not

5:20

only to the essence

5:22

identity of the universe, but

5:25

it refers also to the essence identity of

5:27

who you are. I

5:30

very often use the

5:32

term form identity and

5:35

essence identity. You

5:38

have a form identity, everybody has

5:40

a form identity, which is first

5:43

of all the physical form, the

5:45

body. And

5:47

then it is the psychological form,

5:50

that is the psychological makeup, the

5:52

personality that you are,

5:54

that's the conditioning of your

5:56

mind, your mental, emotional conditioning.

6:00

that creates your psychological

6:03

form identity. So you as

6:05

a person form identity,

6:10

physical form and a

6:12

psychological form. The psychological

6:14

form of course is

6:17

dependent on what happened to you in

6:19

the past. It's your conditioned by the

6:21

past. That is the entity, the personal

6:25

sense of self. Everybody

6:27

has that. Now for most

6:30

people, that's all they have. They

6:32

arrive the entire sense of who

6:34

they are from

6:36

a personal sense of self,

6:38

a historical person. And

6:41

they talk about themselves when they say

6:43

my life. There's a

6:45

narrative that every human

6:48

has. And this narrative

6:50

is the story of my

6:52

life, me and my life. So people,

6:55

that is what people think

6:57

about a lot. They thought, what

6:59

about my life? And now the

7:01

interesting fact is everybody's life is

7:06

to a greater or lesser degree problematic.

7:09

Everybody encounters a succession of challenges in their

7:11

life, both on a personal level and

7:15

on a collective level. So

7:17

there's no end to the succession of challenges

7:22

that we face in life. We

7:27

don't realize that the challenges that

7:29

we face and challenges is only

7:31

one name that we use. We

7:33

could use other words like disruption,

7:36

loss, tribulation. These

7:40

challenges, if you are not

7:43

sufficiently conscious very

7:45

easily turn into suffering,

7:48

into reactivity, the

7:51

personality reacts and

7:54

the personality says this should not

7:56

be happening. There is something wrong

7:59

with my life. life because

8:01

I'm continuously being challenged. When

8:03

I sort out one, I

8:06

create something beautiful here. And

8:09

then always somehow something comes

8:11

into my, it sounds to

8:13

detract from it, or it

8:15

no longer satisfies me. And

8:18

so people then

8:20

develop a sense of dissatisfaction

8:24

and unease that they believe there's

8:26

something wrong when things so to

8:28

speak go wrong. Now they go

8:30

wrong collectively for millions of people,

8:34

not for the first time, but

8:36

for quite a while, for many

8:38

decades in the Western world collectively,

8:40

we've been relatively okay. Everybody had

8:42

their personal tribulations

8:45

and sufferings. Yes, but

8:47

collectively we've been okay since the second

8:49

half of the 20th century. So

8:54

challenges come in easily

8:56

turns into suffering because

8:59

the personal sense of self reacts

9:03

and it is dependent

9:06

on for its state of being, of

9:10

what external condition, it

9:13

is determined by external conditions.

9:16

So when you're not sufficiently conscious,

9:19

the external condition determines

9:22

your inner state of consciousness. An

9:25

angry person makes you angry. Something,

9:30

some loss in your life and

9:33

you begin to feel despondent. So

9:36

there's a reactivity, you're

9:38

not free because your

9:40

inner state is completely dependent

9:43

on external conditions. That

9:46

is part of the, when you

9:49

only know yourself as

9:52

a form identity that's almost

9:54

inevitable, that always happens. And

9:57

we don't realize that. Challenges

10:02

have an important function in the

10:04

evolution of consciousness. They are absolutely

10:06

vital because it is the challenges

10:08

of life that force

10:10

you to generate more consciousness

10:15

that can manifest in many ways. You

10:17

can generate more energy starts with

10:20

the physical level. When you're being

10:22

challenged physically, something,

10:24

let's put it like this. If

10:27

you want to have a stronger body, if

10:30

you want to improve your body, what do

10:32

you have to do? You have to make

10:35

life difficult for the body.

10:38

How do you do that? You

10:40

start jogging and at first it's quite an

10:43

effort. You go weightlifting, it's

10:45

an enormous effort at first. There is

10:47

a gap between what the body is

10:49

able to do and what you're demanding

10:51

of the body. So you're making life

10:54

difficult for the body and then something

10:56

happens. There is

10:58

a demand for more energy.

11:01

And then suddenly you experience

11:03

an influx of enhanced

11:05

energy, but it only comes. It

11:08

would not have come if you had stayed on

11:10

your couch. It

11:13

had not come if you had stayed

11:15

in your physical comfort zone because you

11:17

took the body out of the physical

11:19

comfort zone. The demand

11:22

for influx of new and

11:25

heightened energy came and

11:27

then suddenly you experience

11:30

a heightened sense of aliveness as you're jogging,

11:32

but there was a

11:34

gap. So that was the gap

11:36

of discomfort and that

11:39

operates on all levels. So

11:41

when you experience

11:44

loss or disruption of your life,

11:47

whatever level, the only

11:50

way you can become free of

11:53

reactivity and become free

11:55

of other things. Ultimately

12:01

suffering that it otherwise would entail

12:04

is to grow in

12:06

consciousness. So when things

12:09

go wrong in your life, the

12:12

only answer is, are

12:14

you able to grow in consciousness?

12:16

Are you able to transcend

12:20

the historical person, the

12:22

who you are, the form

12:24

identity? And the

12:28

only way are you able to

12:30

do that is the loss of

12:32

the tribulation, awakens in you

12:34

the need to go deeper

12:36

into yourself so that

12:38

you are no longer trapped in the conditioned

12:42

sense of identity. And

12:46

this going deeper puts

12:49

you in touch with the, what

12:52

I call your essence identity,

12:55

the essence identity is

12:58

the transcendent dimension of consciousness,

13:00

who you are beyond the

13:02

person. And

13:05

that awareness of this

13:08

essence identity is

13:11

ultimately what spiritual awakening

13:13

is when you first become aware of

13:15

it. And

13:17

then the possibility arises

13:20

that you become rooted in

13:23

your essence identity. But

13:25

where do you find, where and how

13:28

do you find your essence identity? It's

13:30

not just as a concept, it's relatively

13:32

meaningless. And you cannot

13:34

understand what essence identity is

13:36

by examining the concept. Your

13:42

form identity is connected with

13:45

your life situation. Your

13:48

life situation unfolds,

13:52

in time, your

13:54

whole past has brought you to

13:56

this moment. Your life

13:58

situation will unfold. in the

14:01

so-called future. Your life

14:03

situation and your form identity

14:05

go together. Everybody not

14:07

only has a form identity, you also

14:10

have a life situation right now. And

14:13

whether for you this life situation is

14:15

relatively pleasant at the moment, or

14:18

whether it is highly problematic, it

14:20

varies from person to

14:22

person. So life situation

14:24

involves your health, it

14:26

involves your finances, it

14:28

involves your relationship, it

14:31

involves your work situation,

14:33

your home situation, all

14:36

these things make up your life

14:38

situation. Now, most

14:40

people's attention is continuously

14:42

and only absorbed by

14:44

their life situation. So

14:46

that's what occupies their

14:48

attention continuously. And the

14:51

life situation is more

14:53

often than not problematic.

14:56

So millions of people

14:58

actually unconsciously consider their

15:02

life to be a problem to be

15:04

solved. They

15:07

derive their entire sense

15:09

of identity from the problems that continuously

15:11

rise in their lives, their

15:13

life situation. So, and the, where

15:15

do these problems exist? If

15:21

you look around, in

15:23

order to take people from being completely

15:26

absorbed by

15:28

their life situation, which ultimately is

15:31

the stream of continuous thinking that

15:34

you cannot get out of. That their

15:36

life situation is represented by

15:39

a continuous stream of unconscious thinking. Unconscious

15:45

thinking means you are not aware of

15:47

the voice in your head, because the voice in your head has

15:51

taken possession of you so completely that

15:54

you are a hundred percent identified with it. In

15:57

other words, you are not aware of the voice in

15:59

your head. you believe in every thought that

16:01

comes into your head, you are every thought

16:04

that comes into your head. That

16:06

is the state of being

16:08

spiritually unconscious, even if you have

16:11

two PhDs, it makes

16:13

no difference. You are then

16:15

spiritually ignorant. You might

16:17

be highly educated, but this is

16:19

not unusual for people to be

16:21

highly educated, but otherwise be totally

16:23

ignorant in the spiritual

16:26

terms. So your spirit,

16:29

to be spiritually unconscious, to

16:31

be unconscious is to be

16:34

completely identified with a

16:36

stream of thinking in your head, and

16:38

you call it my life. And

16:41

there's no end to the problems of

16:43

my life. If you look for some

16:46

kind of ultimate solution, yes, it's wonderful

16:48

to take action. It's wonderful to improve

16:51

your life here and there, but

16:54

continuously the challenges come and

16:58

you always look to the next moment

17:00

for some kind of fulfillment, some

17:03

kind of completion. And

17:06

although it is wonderful to make

17:08

plans and to have a purpose in

17:10

your life, it's absolutely necessary. But

17:15

if that's all there is,

17:18

if your entire sense of who

17:20

you are is absorbed by your

17:23

form identity and your life

17:25

situation, which

17:27

is one problem after another, as

17:31

Chartier called, when Chartier talked about

17:34

history, he said, it's one damn

17:36

thing after another. And

17:39

everybody's personal history is really

17:41

also continuous problems,

17:43

challenges. And

17:46

when the challenges become

17:48

great, there's great loss

17:51

or up disruption of

17:53

your normal way of

17:55

life or some kind

17:57

of tribulation. Then... suffering

18:01

arises, suffering increases. And

18:04

the next, then also what

18:07

arises is the possibility of

18:10

going deeper and realizing

18:12

who you

18:14

are beyond the narrative of your

18:16

mind, the unconscious voice

18:18

in the head, the thought processes that

18:20

never stop, to realize who

18:23

you are beyond the

18:25

story of me, me

18:27

and my story. That

18:29

is a mind made sense of self

18:32

that constitutes most people's

18:34

sense of identity. This

18:37

is very important to realize. They

18:39

derive their entire sense of self,

18:41

of who they are, from

18:44

a narrative, a story they tell

18:46

themselves and others in their

18:48

mind. It's your past

18:50

mostly, and then you protect from there

18:53

into the so-called future. So

18:55

that's all there is for most

18:57

people. And because they have not

19:00

found anything else, they

19:02

live only in this

19:04

dimension, which I call the horizontal

19:06

dimension of life. The

19:09

horizontal dimension of life, of course, they

19:11

you have past and future. The of

19:13

the movement from past to

19:15

present to future. The horizontal

19:17

dimension of life. They

19:20

have not realized the

19:22

vertical dimension, which is

19:24

the entry point into your essence identity, which

19:27

you could say it's a symbol if not

19:29

the cross. The cross is

19:32

the horizontal dimension and the

19:34

intersection of the horizontal

19:36

dimension with the vertical

19:38

dimension. A human being

19:41

needs to be rooted in

19:43

the vertical dimension. And

19:46

this is where we are going now. A

19:48

human being needs to be rooted in the

19:51

vertical dimension in order to have a

19:54

fruitful life in the

19:56

horizontal dimension. And

19:58

a non frustrating life. and

20:00

a productive life and

20:03

a creative life in the horizontal

20:05

dimension, which of course is

20:08

necessary and needs to be acknowledged and

20:10

honored. But you

20:12

cannot be a fully

20:14

functioning human being if

20:17

the horizontal dimension is all there

20:19

is. If you know nothing else

20:22

except the horizontal dimension in your

20:24

life, then you're always, there's

20:26

always some future moment that's

20:29

going to be more important than this one.

20:32

So where do we find

20:34

the vertical dimension? The

20:37

horizontal dimension, your life situation,

20:40

that is where it exists,

20:42

this horrid, the

20:45

life situation exists on the horizontal

20:47

dimension, lives in

20:49

time. And

20:53

a question that I sometimes ask people

20:56

who are burdened by their life situation,

20:58

which is millions and millions of people

21:00

on this planet, carry

21:02

an enormous burden around with

21:04

them, and they call

21:06

it my life and it's hard

21:08

and it's difficult. Yes, there are

21:11

external difficulties that cannot be disputed,

21:13

but to

21:15

carry your own self as

21:17

a burden in life is

21:19

a terrible fate. You carry

21:22

the burden of yourself, an

21:24

unhappy self. This

21:26

is the state of suffering that the Buddha

21:28

talked of. You carry

21:31

the burden of an unhappy

21:33

self with occasional interludes of

21:35

short-lived happiness. You

21:38

have a great meal or you have sex or you

21:41

just fall in love and it doesn't last that long.

21:44

So to live with this

21:46

burden of an unhappy self

21:48

is dreadful, but what

21:51

is that unhappy self? It's

21:54

a mental, emotional structure that's

21:56

created by God. by

22:00

the past, it's a mind made sense

22:03

of self. But

22:05

you call it my life. My

22:08

life is so hard, let me tell you about my

22:10

life. Do you want to hear about my life? And

22:13

I'm sure it's far worse than yours.

22:15

That's a very common story. I'm not

22:17

talking about myself, it's just an example.

22:20

So people live, they

22:22

walk around with an unhappy sense of

22:27

self and often you hear, oh,

22:29

I wish my life had gone a different way,

22:31

I wish this hadn't have happened. I

22:34

would have imagined my life so very

22:36

differently when I was 20, I thought

22:38

I had so many plans and so on.

22:41

So an unhappy sense

22:43

of self, how

22:45

do you realize the

22:49

ultimate unreality

22:51

of that kind of sense of self?

22:55

The ultimate unreality of what

22:58

the Buddha called the self.

23:02

And what Jesus also called

23:06

the self. What

23:08

Jesus said amazingly,

23:11

deny thyself. What

23:15

does that mean? Deny

23:17

thyself. It

23:20

cannot possibly mean how can

23:22

you, if your self is real, that

23:24

self, it would

23:26

be absurd to deny it, how you can

23:28

deny yourself. It doesn't make sense. And very

23:30

few people I believe in the churches actually

23:32

understand what he was talking about. Deny

23:35

thyself. Well,

23:38

what he's saying is exactly

23:40

the same that what the Buddha is

23:42

saying, recognize

23:45

the ultimate unreality

23:48

of your usual sense of self.

23:51

That's deny thyself means recognize

23:55

in ultimate terms,

23:57

your person, your person. your

24:00

exclusively personalized sense of

24:02

self is ultimately

24:06

not real. So that's

24:09

the meaning of, cannot have

24:11

any other meaning because if

24:13

it's real, it's absurd

24:15

to deny something that is real. So

24:19

Jesus is saying exactly the same as

24:21

the Buddha. And

24:24

then there is the possibility,

24:26

the Buddha said, to

24:29

find the end of suffering. And

24:33

Jesus talked about to find the

24:36

kingdom of heaven that is within you. They

24:39

are all they are pointing to

24:43

the transcendent dimension

24:46

of who you are. That

24:49

is always already there.

24:54

That does not need

24:57

to be achieved.

25:00

Recognizing this

25:03

transcendent dimension to who

25:05

you are is not an

25:09

achievement. You cannot

25:11

achieve it. Because if

25:13

you want to achieve this,

25:15

you could call it self-realization or

25:17

whatever you want to call it.

25:20

If you want to achieve it, you will

25:22

not achieve it because you have already put

25:24

it into the future. Because

25:26

any achievement you need future to achieve

25:29

anything. Even to achieve, to make a

25:31

cup of tea, you need future. So

25:34

if you want to achieve enlightenment

25:36

or self-recognition or the awakening,

25:39

the great awakening, that's

25:42

your, you have already

25:44

created an obstacle. The

25:47

wanting to achieve it. So

25:50

instead of an achievement, it

25:52

is a recognition, it is a

25:54

realization of something that

25:57

is already and has always

25:59

been. within you, but

26:02

it has always been

26:04

overlooked. It's

26:07

already the dimension, the

26:10

essence dimension, which is

26:12

exactly what the words

26:14

of God pointed to, that

26:17

is also the essence dimension

26:19

of God is the I am, the

26:22

ultimate I am, and we're going there now.

26:26

So it's not an achievement,

26:29

it's a recognition or a

26:31

realization. So

26:34

how do you arrive at this

26:36

realization? Sometimes

26:40

when people complain to me

26:42

about their problems and

26:47

the difficulties of their life, which

26:49

undoubtedly are true on the level

26:51

of their life situation, I

26:54

ask them, well, okay, I

26:56

see that all that is happening in your life,

26:58

but what

27:01

problem do you have right now? What

27:04

is the problem that you have in this

27:06

moment? Now,

27:11

this is a strange question, and usually people

27:13

don't know what I mean because they still

27:15

refer to some future moment. Well, I

27:18

don't know how to pay my rent. Where

27:20

am I going to live? What's

27:22

going to happen to me? What

27:25

about this and that? Tomorrow I have to see

27:27

a lawyer about that. I

27:30

have to, what about my investments? What

27:33

about my, whatever. No,

27:35

that's all some future moment in

27:37

your mind. What problem

27:40

do you have in the only time

27:42

there ever is, which

27:44

is the present moment? The only

27:46

place where your life ever

27:50

exists is in the present

27:52

moment. There is never

27:55

anything other than this

27:57

moment. Your entire

28:00

life, life unfolds in

28:02

and as this

28:04

moment. You

28:06

can intellectually, you can agree

28:09

with that statement, but

28:12

still it hasn't touched you deeply enough.

28:16

You have to have this deep realization that

28:20

this moment is inseparable

28:22

from life. There's

28:25

only ever this moment. Whatever

28:29

happened in the past, it happened in

28:31

the present moment and you remember it

28:33

in this present moment. Whatever

28:36

will happen in the future will

28:38

not happen in the future. Nothing has ever

28:41

happened in the future and nobody

28:43

has ever encountered the future. The

28:46

most intrepid explorer has never

28:49

encountered, no intrepid

28:51

explorer has ever encountered the future

28:53

because the moment the so-called future

28:55

comes, it's the present moment. There's

28:57

never anything other than the present

28:59

moment. Your entire life is always,

29:01

and there never will be anything

29:03

other than the present moment but

29:05

to realize this in the

29:08

depths of your being is very

29:10

different from intellectually thinking about it.

29:14

So you have your life situation which

29:16

unfolds in time and what I call

29:18

your life is always now. And

29:21

it is vital to differentiate between

29:24

your life situation. Yes, you honor it, you

29:26

acknowledge it and you do what you can

29:28

to improve it. No doubt

29:30

about it. But you need

29:32

to know the difference between your life

29:35

situation and your life. Yes,

29:38

your life situation has its place

29:40

but let it not consume you.

29:44

What is vital is

29:46

what this vertical dimension is your

29:48

life and your life

29:51

is always and only now.

29:55

So dealing with your

29:57

life situation is fine. often

30:00

you have to take action. The

30:02

question is, is

30:04

it consuming you so completely that you're

30:06

losing yourself in it? That

30:10

it fuels your thinking

30:12

continuously. And

30:15

it preoccupies you and it keeps you awake

30:17

at night. And

30:19

it creates an enormous amount of suffering. And

30:22

many things you think about are not

30:25

even going to happen. But

30:27

your life situation, it

30:29

is not enough no matter how conscientious

30:33

you are and how hard

30:35

you try to have a well functioning ordered

30:41

life, it's

30:43

never enough. Why is

30:45

it never enough? Because you

30:48

have ignored the vertical dimension of

30:50

your life. There's only a life

30:52

situation. Your life

30:54

is now and only ever now.

30:57

And ultimately, this sounds

30:59

a little strange perhaps, in

31:02

ultimate terms, past

31:04

and future do not exist, except

31:10

as thoughts in your mind. Isn't

31:13

that an interesting realization? And I don't think

31:16

anybody could actually prove that this

31:18

is not true or even argue with it.

31:21

The past does not exist except as

31:23

a thought in your mind and future

31:25

does not exist except as a thought

31:27

in your mind. Or

31:30

yes, we need them to function on

31:32

this level of reality, but

31:35

there is something else. If

31:38

you do not find there's something else,

31:41

no matter how hard you try, you

31:44

will not experience your life

31:46

as satisfying. You will not

31:49

experience ultimate satisfaction in your

31:52

life. Situations will always

31:54

fall short of expectations or they

31:56

will no longer satisfy you. There's

31:59

always... something that goes wrong, it

32:02

comes very frustrating, if

32:05

not leading to despair. There

32:07

is a wonderful book in

32:09

the Old Testament, I believe it's

32:12

called Ecclesiastes, which was written

32:14

by a person who had reached

32:16

this point of

32:20

the ultimate state of frustration with

32:22

life. How this book

32:24

got into Bible, I don't know, but it's

32:26

great literature, but it's really, it's

32:29

not, this person had

32:31

not found yet God within.

32:34

So it starts with a famous statement, vanity

32:38

of vanities all is

32:40

vanity. That's the famous first lines

32:42

of the book of Ecclesiastes and

32:45

translated of course, it's the older

32:47

meaning of vanity. In modern terminology,

32:49

it means vanity is

32:51

pointlessness. It's

32:54

all so utterly pointless

32:56

because this man who wrote

32:58

that book, he had

33:00

achieved so much, he had achieved

33:02

wealth and he had achieved knowledge

33:04

and it did nothing satisfied him.

33:07

So he started this book with saying, it's

33:10

all so pointless. And

33:13

so that's great literature, but

33:16

that realization of pointlessness could

33:19

be the beginning of

33:22

the realization of

33:26

your essence identity, which is inseparable

33:29

from the present moment. So

33:31

in order to realize your

33:34

essence identity, your attention

33:36

needs to come into the present moment.

33:39

Now, what does that mean? It

33:42

means your attention is no

33:44

longer completely absorbed by the

33:47

think thought processes in your mind.

33:50

So your attention comes into the present

33:52

moment. For example, now, often

33:56

it means first of all, that

33:58

you become more and more aware of the present moment. aware of your sense

34:02

perceptions, your surroundings. There's

34:05

a heightened sense of

34:07

alertness, and

34:11

you perceive things more acutely,

34:15

seeing, hearing, and

34:17

whatever other sense is. And

34:20

so your attention moves

34:22

from thought-based into alertness,

34:27

directly towards sense perceptions.

34:29

So you become, and

34:31

you might see, or hear, or touch things

34:34

that otherwise you had not been aware of.

34:37

If you're anywhere, often the

34:39

first step, but it's only the first

34:41

step, the first step into

34:43

present moment awareness, which

34:46

is the vertical dimension, which is the

34:48

opening of your essence identity, the

34:51

first one is quite often sense

34:54

perceptions. And

34:56

this is for many people, it's

34:58

also already a small waking up.

35:01

What do they wake up from? They

35:04

wake up from the dream of

35:06

unconscious thinking and the entire

35:08

sense of self that was bound

35:10

up with unconscious thinking, the narrative

35:12

of me, the story of me,

35:14

okay, look at the sky, give

35:17

it your complete attention. And

35:22

there's a moment of complete attention

35:24

in that moment of complete attention.

35:27

There's only the sense

35:29

perception and the

35:31

awareness behind the sense perception. So

35:35

it starts with a sense perception. That's

35:37

already, and you see, you

35:40

will probably see beauty or hear

35:42

beautiful things that before you are not

35:44

aware of, and you might see beauty

35:47

in the most insignificant things when you're

35:49

really present with them. Some

35:51

days you can hold something up, wow.

35:54

You look at a tree and for

35:56

a moment, you're just aware of it

35:59

and you're really looking. you're not labeling

36:01

it, that's the important thing. It

36:03

is possible to look at

36:06

a tree or flower or

36:08

the sky without compulsively immediately

36:10

labeling it. People don't even

36:12

know that this is possible. Why

36:14

don't they teach at school that

36:16

it is entirely possible and not

36:18

only entirely possible, but absolutely necessary

36:20

to be able to develop the

36:22

ability to look at the world,

36:25

engage with the world with your

36:28

sense perceptions, quite

36:30

often without compulsively labeling

36:32

it, but just be

36:36

aware of it, notice it, give it attention.

36:41

That brings you, there's a

36:43

present moment. And you notice suddenly that

36:46

you live in a world that is

36:48

full, that is alive. There are amazing

36:51

life forms all around you.

36:53

And you overlook them continuously

36:55

when you're only completely absorbed

36:58

in the thought processes. You

37:00

overlook the miracle of life that

37:03

continuously unfolds around you, even

37:05

in a plant, the trees,

37:08

I'm lucky to have trees when I

37:10

look out of my window. And I often,

37:12

I sit here sometimes before

37:15

15 minutes and just look at the

37:17

trees, it's so wonderful. And

37:19

the sky, the trees, your

37:22

present moment, but sense perception is

37:24

only the entry point, miraculous

37:27

as it is. And

37:29

then you're not only aware of the

37:31

sense perception. And now we come to

37:33

the vital next step in present moment

37:36

awareness, which is a vertical dimension. This

37:39

is, oh, this is so miraculous.

37:42

You become aware not only of what

37:44

you see or hear or touch or

37:47

smell, not only

37:49

that, you're

37:51

also aware of

37:54

yourself, but

37:56

not the historical

37:58

self. not the

38:01

conditioned self, not the

38:03

person. You're

38:06

becoming aware of yourself as

38:09

the underlying presence,

38:13

or what you could call it, the

38:16

underlying consciousness, conscious presence

38:20

that makes the sense perception possible.

38:24

So there is a, you can sense a

38:27

presence that is inseparable

38:30

from who you are. And

38:32

it is this presence of consciousness, we could

38:35

call it the light of consciousness, that

38:38

enables you to perceive. But

38:42

it also enables you to think,

38:44

but right now you're not thinking,

38:46

you're only aware of yourself as

38:49

a presence. And this

38:51

is at first, the

38:54

mind might say, well, what

38:56

does it mean? That's another

38:59

thought, a thought trying to understand

39:01

presence, and thinking cannot understand presence.

39:04

So you become present, and

39:07

what is left of you? Let's say you

39:10

look at the sky, or

39:12

you look at the plant, whatever it

39:14

may be, and then you

39:16

become aware of the one who is looking, the

39:20

one who is looking. And

39:23

that one cannot be defined, that

39:27

one has no real attributes that could

39:29

talk about. The

39:31

one who is looking is the underlying

39:33

I am. All you

39:35

know, you could then even close

39:37

your eyes and no longer look at the sky,

39:40

or the tree, or whatever you

39:42

were looking at. And

39:45

what remains is a sense

39:47

of beingness, or presence,

39:52

which has no attributes as

39:54

such. You

39:56

cannot define it conceptually. And

40:01

all you know then is that you are,

40:05

and that is the meaning of I

40:08

am that I am, because that is not

40:10

only the essence

40:14

identity of you, it

40:17

is the essence identity of the

40:20

universe itself, the

40:22

underlying I am. And

40:25

if you can go there, at first, you

40:27

just have it as a glimpse, a

40:30

glimpse of you as presence instead of

40:32

you as a person, but

40:35

they're not ultimately separate. One

40:37

could compare it to you as

40:39

a person, you are a ripple on the surface of

40:41

the ocean. And

40:44

then the ripple that's on the surface

40:46

of the ocean becomes aware that it

40:48

is more fundamentally

40:50

the ocean. Wouldn't

40:55

that be an amazing awakening for the ripple

40:58

that before thought it was separate

41:00

from every other ripple and

41:02

wasn't even aware of the ocean, or

41:05

you could see other threatening ripples and

41:08

fell in love and out of love with a few

41:10

more ripples, but

41:13

never knew itself as

41:15

more than a ripple. And then the ripple on

41:17

the surface of the ocean becomes aware of the

41:20

ocean and it is inseparable

41:22

from the ocean. In

41:25

this analogy, the ocean is

41:27

consciousness itself, it is universal

41:29

consciousness. And

41:34

then after

41:37

a while you develop the ability to

41:41

continuously be aware of this, even while you

41:43

are, even

41:46

when you begin to think again, you're

41:50

no longer totally absorbed in

41:52

your thinking. You can actually

41:54

think more effectively when

41:56

you're rooted in what

41:58

we could call. the

42:01

unconditioned consciousness, which

42:04

is what it is. You

42:06

could also call it an inner stillness. There

42:08

are many terms you can use, they're just

42:10

pointers. And

42:12

the ultimate, the I am, the fundamental. And

42:18

then you can be rooted in there. And

42:20

then you can look around. First

42:23

you practice it with sense perception.

42:26

When you become aware of yourself, it

42:29

also affects your body. You begin to

42:31

feel every cell of the body almost,

42:34

that the entire body is pervaded by a

42:36

sense of aliveness. But that

42:38

is no longer the body. It's something deeper than

42:40

the body. It's the intelligence that holds all

42:43

the atoms and molecules of the

42:45

body together. And the organizing principle

42:47

behind the material world,

42:50

the invisible organizing principle

42:52

behind the cosmos. And

42:55

this organizing principle behind the cosmos

42:57

is consciousness itself. And you

42:59

become aware, an entry

43:02

point into this realization can be the awareness

43:04

of what I call the inner body. To

43:08

sense that your body is pervaded with a

43:10

sense of aliveness. But that

43:12

aliveness is not the visible body. It

43:15

is the invisible that gives life

43:17

to the body. And

43:19

that essentially is you. That

43:22

is who you are. That is your

43:24

essence identity. That is the I am

43:27

that I am. Or

43:29

that is as Jesus called it, the

43:31

light of the world. He said, you are the

43:33

light of the world. Isn't

43:37

that what amazing to realization, I am

43:39

the light of the world. What does

43:42

that mean? What is the light of

43:44

the world? The light of the world is consciousness.

43:48

The consciousness of the world. And

43:52

what is that consciousness? We can go more

43:54

deeply into that, but we don't have another

43:56

two or three hours. That

43:58

just a little bit. bit here as

44:01

I see it. It may make sense to

44:03

you or not. It's an intuitive realization that

44:06

consciousness that you are is

44:10

like can be compared to light

44:13

that emanates from the Sun. The

44:16

Sun continuously emanates light and

44:19

the consciousness that you are could be

44:21

is a ray of that light and

44:24

that and what is the Sun is the

44:26

source of all life which

44:28

traditionally called God that does

44:30

not exist in space or

44:33

time. It

44:37

is in a transcendent dimension

44:39

not in space or time

44:41

but from the transcendent dimension

44:43

emanates into this world the

44:46

light of

44:48

the source and

44:50

it manifests in

44:53

billions of life forms and

44:55

briefly manifests in disguises itself

44:58

in continuous forms and

45:01

there's a process in this

45:03

dimension there's an evolutionary process

45:05

where gradually the entire universe

45:07

is becoming more conscious. The

45:10

universe is engaged in a process

45:12

of awakening and you are part

45:15

of this process of awakening and

45:17

this moment of us talking here

45:19

sitting here this moment

45:21

is far more than

45:24

people listening to a speaker

45:26

that's only the surface reality.

45:28

This moment is already a

45:31

manifestation of the awakening universe

45:34

of which you are inseparable part. So

45:38

the consciousness there is the essence

45:40

of the universe it emanates into

45:42

this universe from God. God

45:45

is like the Sun but of course for

45:47

a transcendence Sun and it emanates

45:49

into you now the question

45:52

arises is the ray of sunlight

45:54

separate from the Sun no it's

45:56

not the ray of sunlight

45:58

is still eternally connected to the sun

46:00

but would the ray of sun then

46:03

be correct in stating I am the

46:05

sun? Yes and no.

46:08

The ray of sunlight, yes

46:10

it is in its essence

46:13

it's part of the sun but it's not the

46:15

sun. The sun is vast

46:17

and would immediately consume you. So in

46:19

the same way for you

46:22

saying I am God is

46:25

ultimately perhaps true but

46:28

I would not recommend that you say

46:30

it because

46:32

it's not, it's not, it depends

46:35

how you look at it. The

46:38

essence of who you are is

46:40

inseparable from God

46:44

which is the light of consciousness

46:46

and that's all you need to know. And

46:49

in yourself this

46:51

is such an amazing realization that

46:53

there is this transcendent dimension to

46:55

who you are that is infinitely

46:58

more real than the person. And

47:02

that's, this

47:04

is consciousness itself and consciousness itself is

47:06

very interesting in if you look again

47:08

at the miscellogical account of the creation

47:11

of the world in the

47:13

beginning of the Bible you

47:15

might notice that before God creates

47:17

the sun and the celestial body before

47:19

he creates the sun and the celestial,

47:21

it's a miscellogical account I'm not saying

47:24

it's literally true but there's

47:26

great wisdom in there. Before he creates

47:28

the sun and the earth God says

47:30

let there be light before

47:33

the sun let there

47:35

be light. This is the great,

47:37

the ultimate statement for the creation

47:39

of the universe is the statement

47:41

let there be light. So

47:44

it's not the physical light that the

47:46

sun it is the light of consciousness.

47:48

In that moment there's the, God

47:51

begins to emanate, this

47:53

is the creation of the universe, the

47:55

light of consciousness and

47:57

then gradually the awakening of

47:59

the universe. process begins. Wow.

48:02

I'm trying to talk about something

48:04

that is totally impossible to talk about and

48:06

yet I'm doing it. So these are only,

48:08

I cannot explain

48:11

the universe, it's absurd to even attempt

48:13

it, but it's an approximation. It's a

48:15

little bit like this. These are always

48:17

used parables, that it's a little bit

48:19

like that, a little bit like that.

48:21

Yes. And then something in

48:25

you recognizes the truth of it as

48:29

if you had always known it. And

48:31

so the truth of it, the truth of the universe

48:33

is the truth of who you are. And

48:36

that is the

48:39

essence of who you are, where you are

48:41

inseparable from what, and that is what the

48:43

truth will make you free, said Jesus. What

48:45

does that mean? It is the

48:47

truth of who you are that

48:50

will make you free. You're no

48:52

longer dependent on external

48:55

conditions and the conditioning of

48:58

the person that you are

49:00

here temporarily. I

49:04

don't understand that this

49:07

is almost still, it's

49:09

not widely known what I'm talking about.

49:11

Why isn't it widely known? It's the

49:13

most vital knowledge. It's not even knowledge,

49:15

it's the most

49:18

vital knowing for every human being to

49:20

realize that. But

49:23

we are on our way.

49:25

So it is

49:28

happening. We may

49:30

be experienced a regressive movement for a

49:32

little while. Many people seem

49:34

to be going a little bit insane these

49:36

days, but

49:38

that's fine. Regressive

49:41

movements are part of

49:43

the evolutionary process also.

49:46

That's, there's

49:48

nothing to be feared. And

49:51

before I finish, the realization of

49:53

this is also

49:57

the end of fear in

49:59

its many, many ways. manifestations, fear

50:02

as nervousness, fear as anxiety,

50:05

fears, panic, fear transforming into

50:07

anger and all kinds of

50:10

other negative emotions. This

50:12

is also the end of fear

50:14

because the ripple on

50:17

the surface of the ocean that

50:19

is very fearful because it only knows

50:21

the surface of the ocean, of

50:24

course you would be fearful as a little

50:26

thing in this vastness, but the moment the

50:29

ripple recognizes that it is also

50:31

the ocean and more fundamentally the

50:33

ocean, the fear goes

50:36

because the ripple realizes it cannot

50:39

die. But another,

50:41

at the same time, it's not

50:44

only that

50:48

the ripple recognizes itself as the

50:50

ocean, but

50:53

the ocean recognizes

50:56

itself through the ocean this

50:58

recognition of the ripple. If

51:01

there had not been a ripple and

51:03

it's deluded senses, sense

51:06

of separate self, the

51:08

ocean perhaps would not have realized

51:13

its own identity. And

51:16

so this is why I'm saying this

51:18

is an awakening universe. It's

51:21

such a wonderful adventure to be

51:23

part of that and

51:25

humans go through

51:27

life with just completely blinded

51:31

by their narrow personal

51:34

identity. They don't realize how what

51:37

a wonderful adventure it is that transcends everything

51:40

else in your life. So vertical

51:44

and horizontal as

51:46

I mentioned, this

51:48

is all vital knowledge

51:51

that one day will be taught

51:53

at school as subject number one.

51:57

It's the wisdom of how to live life, how to live

51:59

life. What could be

52:01

more important than that? I

52:03

will stop here because here we have

52:06

time. Eckhart,

52:10

can we have a few questions from the audience?

52:13

Yes, sure. Wonderful, here we go.

52:18

Eckhart, thank you for this incredible

52:20

gift in the present moment. I

52:23

feel like an I am in training.

52:26

You said something beautiful. You said step

52:30

one was seeing the world

52:32

without compulsively labeling. And

52:35

you gave the example of being in nature.

52:38

Seeing the tree, the way I interpret it, you see

52:40

a tree but maybe your brain doesn't

52:42

say tree. Can

52:44

you share a little bit more about that,

52:47

seeing the world without compulsively labeling

52:50

and maybe some examples of how

52:52

to start to immerse yourself to

52:55

help condition the brain to do that? Thank

52:59

you, very wonderful question. Thank you

53:01

so much, yes. Ultimately,

53:05

what it means, and you can

53:08

experiment with that, is

53:12

you acquire the ability, let's

53:15

just use the, what is

53:17

for most people, the predominant

53:19

sense which is seeing,

53:22

RDI, vision. It

53:25

could be other senses too. You

53:28

can acquire the ability, and this is

53:30

only now with reference to sense perception,

53:32

but it is with reference to everything

53:34

else too, to

53:37

look at something and

53:40

to experience a cessation of

53:43

thinking. This

53:45

is the most vital thing to

53:48

find in yourself the ability

53:51

to be conscious without thought,

53:54

even if only for three few seconds. And

53:57

the mind might say, oh no, I can't

53:59

do that, of course I can't. at thought

54:01

talking and obviously thought cannot do it because

54:03

it's a cessation of thought. So

54:05

you look at something and

54:08

your mind is not commenting

54:11

whatsoever. You can practice

54:13

this anywhere. You can sit right here. You

54:15

can sit here. You can look around the

54:17

room or you can look at one single

54:19

thing and not

54:22

call it anything. You can

54:24

take in the totality of the room

54:27

where you are and you look around

54:29

and you're very alert,

54:32

very conscious but you

54:34

notice there's a stillness in the background.

54:37

That's you experiment with that. So

54:40

what then happens, I call that you

54:44

rise above thinking. This

54:47

case not to be confused with

54:50

falling below thinking. And

54:52

in both cases, you achieve some

54:56

kind of self-transcendence because the self

54:58

that we are talking about here

55:00

is the mind-based sense of self.

55:03

Now people are longing for self-transcendence

55:05

unconsciously. They want to be free

55:07

of the burden of themselves and

55:10

many go to drugs. So

55:12

you can go to alcohol and

55:14

if you drink enough you have one glass of

55:17

whiskey, you feel a little better because

55:19

your mind isn't that active anymore perhaps.

55:22

And you have another one and you say, ah,

55:25

it's so nice to be

55:27

alive. And then you have another

55:29

and you start singing. There's

55:31

a little bit of self-transcendence for many

55:33

people there too but you are moving

55:35

towards unconsciousness. So

55:38

in order, the

55:41

same thing happens just as you go to sleep you're

55:43

in bed and you're very,

55:45

very tired and you're too tired

55:47

to think about your problems anymore.

55:49

You can't think about them. And

55:51

there's a delicious moment when

55:54

you're half way towards sleep

55:56

and you feel it's so, the sweetness

55:58

of sleep is so, wonderful and you

56:00

can feel it. There, oh,

56:03

for a moment you have

56:05

achieved self-transcendence, but you have

56:07

fallen below thought. What

56:09

we are talking about here is the opposite,

56:11

you could say. There is

56:14

an alertness that arises when you

56:16

are, for example, looking at something

56:18

and not mentally labeling it, in

56:20

fact, having no thought about it

56:22

at all. And this

56:24

alertness is a state of presence.

56:27

And in the state of presence,

56:29

you have not fallen below thought,

56:31

you have risen above thought. And

56:34

so, and that is the most

56:36

vital thing for humans to develop

56:39

this ability so that they are

56:41

no longer completely trapped in the

56:44

movement and the gravitational pull of

56:47

unconscious thinking. Unconscious thinking means

56:50

thinking that you are completely

56:52

identified with. Unconscious thinking

56:54

means thinking from

56:57

which you derive your sense of

56:59

identity. So then the shift

57:01

that happens is you no

57:03

longer derive your sense of identity from

57:06

thinking, you derive your

57:08

sense of identity from presence,

57:10

the consciousness itself. And

57:13

that's the shift. That is

57:15

also obviously what

57:17

the Buddha talked about, what

57:19

Jesus talked about, Jesus said

57:22

talked about what is

57:24

mistranslated in the gospels as

57:27

repentance. The Greek

57:29

term is metanoia. Metanoia, which is

57:31

translated as repentance, is a shift,

57:34

a complete turnaround. It is a

57:36

shift in consciousness. And

57:39

so that's what the ancient

57:41

the Hindu teachers talk about

57:43

in Advaita and

57:46

other Hindu schools, they say

57:48

there are four states of

57:50

consciousness. There is dreamless sleep.

57:52

This is ancient Hindu teachings.

57:54

There is dreamless

57:58

sleep. There's a dream state. There's

58:00

a wakeful state. Those are the

58:02

three normal states of consciousness. And

58:05

then there's a possibility of what it's

58:07

Sanskrit is called, Tu-ri-ya,

58:09

Tu-ri-ya means the force

58:11

state of consciousness. And

58:14

this is exactly, this is

58:16

pure awareness, pure consciousness, pure

58:18

presence. That is the force state

58:21

of consciousness that is the next step

58:24

in human evolution. And it starts with

58:26

a simple thing, like

58:28

looking at something and not

58:30

compulsively labeling it. So you

58:32

can, there's nothing wrong

58:35

with labels. Sometimes you need the labels,

58:37

but many other times you don't need

58:39

the labels. The labels imprison you and

58:42

limit you. But you

58:44

do not lose your ability to use

58:47

labels. Of course you can continue to

58:49

use labels. Another little example,

58:51

you can go into, when

58:54

I go to Europe, I always love

58:56

going into the ancient medieval cathedrals and

58:59

you can experience, these

59:01

are magnificent places of vast,

59:03

the interior is just wonderful creations.

59:06

You go inside, there

59:08

are two ways you can experience that. You

59:11

can experience the cathedrals through conceptual knowing.

59:13

For example, you can hire a little

59:15

recording, you put it in your ear

59:17

and it is a little guide that

59:19

guides you through the cathedral. It takes

59:21

half an hour. So it explains everything.

59:23

This is that, it was done this,

59:25

this, that. There's this conceptual

59:27

knowledge. There's nothing wrong with that.

59:29

But have you really experienced the

59:31

cathedral this way? Not

59:33

really, because your mind is full of

59:35

concepts. The other way

59:38

of experiencing the cathedral is through non-conceptual

59:41

experiencing, just a where presence. So you

59:43

walk in there and you look and

59:45

you go, wow. There's

59:50

a sense of your overworld by

59:53

this beauty, but you're not, you're

59:55

very little mind activity. So you're

59:57

taking it in completely. And

59:59

you have... really truly experienced it, you

1:00:02

experience the essence of the cathedral. Now

1:00:04

I'm not saying that's the

1:00:06

only way, ideally you have both. So

1:00:10

ideally you are not, you know

1:00:12

things but you're not consumed by

1:00:15

your conceptual knowledge. So

1:00:17

if you go to a cathedral one day you

1:00:19

can go in and hire the little thing that

1:00:21

guides you, the recording that guides you through it

1:00:23

and the next day you go in and let

1:00:25

go of that completely or the other way around.

1:00:28

And then the two can come together.

1:00:30

And again we could call this coming

1:00:32

together of being and doing because the

1:00:35

thinking is doing also. Doing is

1:00:37

not only external, every thinking is doing.

1:00:39

So you're doing the thinking. So

1:00:42

here too you bring together the doing

1:00:45

and the being and

1:00:47

that is the ultimate human

1:00:49

state to reconcile the

1:00:54

those dimensions, the horizontal and the vertical.

1:00:56

So we are going towards developing

1:01:00

this the ability to have

1:01:04

just pure awareness when we want it,

1:01:06

when we like it, just

1:01:09

purely just be conscious. The greatest thing

1:01:11

that I have ever, people

1:01:13

ask me what is the greatest

1:01:15

thing that you have achieved in your life?

1:01:17

And I sometimes say well it's not an

1:01:20

achievement at all but it's a discovery. And

1:01:23

my greatest achievement which

1:01:25

really is discovery, I don't

1:01:29

need to think when I don't want to

1:01:31

think. That's water

1:01:33

liberation because I've experienced

1:01:36

the first many decades

1:01:39

of my life burdened by my

1:01:41

own thoughts, burdened by my mind's

1:01:43

creative identity and then to this

1:01:46

burden to have lifted and you're suddenly

1:01:49

you're free not to think but you're

1:01:52

not falling below thinking, you're

1:01:54

above thinking. That's that

1:01:56

is the next step in human evolution but

1:01:58

it's here now. Thank you. Hi.

1:02:09

Thank you so much. Once

1:02:14

you have this awareness

1:02:16

of the vertical and the horizontal,

1:02:20

that intersection of life, of

1:02:22

living in that space,

1:02:25

can you go deeper and talk more about

1:02:27

that existing

1:02:29

on both planes

1:02:31

at the same time, every day, and

1:02:35

interacting in that space with other

1:02:37

people who may be living only

1:02:41

in one? Very

1:02:43

good. Yes, that's a very important question. Thank

1:02:45

you. And you mentioned the special

1:02:48

difficulty, which is other

1:02:51

people. Because other

1:02:53

people usually make

1:02:56

your life difficult. Not

1:02:59

talking to you personally,

1:03:01

but in general. Because

1:03:07

most people will probably still

1:03:10

be completely absorbed in their

1:03:12

mind-made sense of self, their

1:03:15

mind-made identity. That is

1:03:17

the case. So every human

1:03:19

encounter is important that you get

1:03:22

your priorities right. Whenever

1:03:24

you communicate

1:03:27

with another human being, whether

1:03:29

it's somebody you just meet

1:03:31

casually in an inter-justice, an

1:03:33

interaction, you buy something or

1:03:35

whatever, or you meet

1:03:37

somebody briefly, or somebody

1:03:40

you work with, or in

1:03:42

your family. It's

1:03:46

very easy the moment you start talking

1:03:49

to somebody, it's very easy

1:03:51

to completely get, even

1:03:53

if initially you were very present, but

1:03:56

this person then suddenly questions

1:03:58

something that you say. and it's

1:04:01

very easily, you get drawn

1:04:03

back into complete mind identification.

1:04:05

This happens very easily when

1:04:07

people have conflicting opinions. And

1:04:11

so with conflicting opinions, if

1:04:13

you are completely identified with your mental

1:04:16

position, then somebody

1:04:19

else holds a completely different

1:04:21

mental position and

1:04:23

you are completely identified with it, which

1:04:25

means this is the egoic sense of

1:04:27

self. And it's very easy to happen

1:04:29

when somebody, you engage in a conversation.

1:04:33

You start, if

1:04:36

you're not present enough, you

1:04:38

get drawn back into complete identification

1:04:40

with your mental position. And then

1:04:43

unfortunately what happens, because

1:04:45

you're identified that what means yourself,

1:04:49

your sense of self is bound

1:04:51

up with your opinion or your

1:04:53

viewpoint or your mental position. That's

1:04:56

the important thing. Now, anybody who

1:04:59

questions this then, or attacks

1:05:03

it in some way, this

1:05:05

is then perceived in

1:05:08

the illusory state of identification

1:05:10

with mental positions or thinking.

1:05:12

It's perceived as an attack on yourself unconsciously,

1:05:15

because your whole sense of self is an

1:05:17

attack. So it's very

1:05:19

easy for this to happen. And

1:05:21

then you've become defensive or aggressive

1:05:23

whatever reaction you have, because you're

1:05:26

no longer, it's no longer

1:05:28

about your opinion or viewpoint that you're

1:05:30

talking about. It's about your sense of

1:05:32

self. And this

1:05:34

is how people make others into

1:05:36

enemies because they have different viewpoints

1:05:38

or positions. And is when you

1:05:40

are conscious enough, you

1:05:42

can still have your viewpoints and mental positions,

1:05:45

but there's behind it, there's

1:05:48

a sense of presence. And

1:05:50

then you, this is a spiritual practice. When

1:05:53

you discuss something with somebody, you

1:05:55

can make it into a spiritual practice so that stay

1:05:58

conscious while you're engaged. in

1:06:00

conversation or discussion. Stay conscious

1:06:02

while you listen to, when

1:06:06

you go especially

1:06:09

difficult by the way, people

1:06:11

with whom you share a lot of past,

1:06:15

it's very difficult to get out of

1:06:17

these patterns, these reactive patterns. I

1:06:19

don't know what Thanksgiving is coming up soon,

1:06:23

then traditionally the families get

1:06:25

together and then

1:06:28

often they go through the same

1:06:31

kind of talks as they do every year. You

1:06:34

go to your same

1:06:36

people who criticize you or

1:06:39

do this or the same comments. And

1:06:41

it is very hard where there's a lot of past

1:06:44

to bring in enough presence so

1:06:46

you don't fall back into the

1:06:49

old reactive patterns, defensiveness or aggression

1:06:51

or withdrawal. So that

1:06:53

it's a, to realize, get

1:06:55

your priorities right, in any

1:06:57

human interaction, the most

1:07:00

important element, apart from what it is

1:07:02

that you're talking about is

1:07:04

the state of conscious, your state of consciousness,

1:07:07

to stay as present as you can. Let's

1:07:10

say you're on the telephone, you're

1:07:12

talking to somebody who is difficult

1:07:16

and are you able

1:07:18

to realize the most important

1:07:20

thing in

1:07:22

any situation is the

1:07:25

state of consciousness with which I approach

1:07:27

or face the situation, not

1:07:30

the actual interaction. So make

1:07:32

that primary. So it's

1:07:35

every, it's continuous presence bracket. Many

1:07:37

times you will fail initially, which

1:07:40

people will draw you back in. You

1:07:42

may remember Ram Dass has

1:07:44

used to say, if

1:07:48

you think you're so enlightened, go and spend two

1:07:50

weeks with your parents. Because

1:07:54

that will give you a good reflection of

1:07:58

where you are at five state of consciousness.

1:08:00

of consciousness concern if you can stay present

1:08:02

there because the tendency is, of course, you

1:08:04

might have, maybe you have

1:08:06

very conscious presence, but most people don't,

1:08:09

parents are not that conscious. And

1:08:13

these are the old mental,

1:08:16

emotional patterns that arise very

1:08:18

easily there. So these are

1:08:20

great tests, a

1:08:22

great test for where you are at in

1:08:26

the evolution of your consciousness you look

1:08:28

at your interactions with human beings, that

1:08:30

gives you a reflection, how much conflict

1:08:33

is there in your interaction with human

1:08:35

beings? And then you

1:08:37

need to be honest and look at it

1:08:39

and see, it always, it always, it takes

1:08:41

two to being conflict with another human being.

1:08:45

So you always look at that and this can

1:08:47

give you a wonderful reflection, a better reflection than

1:08:50

some people say, I'd rather be undisturbed,

1:08:54

go on a retreat where nobody

1:08:56

disturbs me, I want to get

1:08:58

enlightened and I want the

1:09:00

best possible conditions for the, my

1:09:03

awakening. And the best possible conditions

1:09:05

are nobody's disturbs me, I need

1:09:07

peace and sign for my meditation.

1:09:10

You could feel quite good after a

1:09:13

while because nobody's disturbed, you go

1:09:15

back into the world and

1:09:17

you get immediately challenged, usually

1:09:20

by other humans. So,

1:09:24

the, as you may, I don't know if

1:09:26

you know the French philosopher

1:09:29

Jean-Paul Sartre, he said, hell

1:09:33

is other people. He

1:09:38

was of course completely, he was

1:09:40

identified very much with his egoic

1:09:42

sense of self. And if

1:09:44

you're completely identity with egoic sense of

1:09:47

self, hell is other

1:09:51

people are usually experienced as very difficult

1:09:54

to deal with. Why are there so many,

1:09:56

so many

1:09:58

difficult people in this world? So many people,

1:10:00

the main source

1:10:02

of suffering in their lives, in

1:10:06

many cases, it's relationships in other people.

1:10:10

But we learned through that. So the

1:10:13

other people give you a reflection of

1:10:16

your state of consciousness, of where you are at.

1:10:18

And the greatest freedom, for

1:10:20

the moment you realize you

1:10:23

can meet another human being who may

1:10:25

be unconscious, which means identify with their

1:10:27

mind, but he or she does not

1:10:30

drag you into unconsciousness. You can stay

1:10:32

present. That's an

1:10:34

enormous, you're no longer dependent on another

1:10:36

person's state

1:10:38

of consciousness. You begin

1:10:40

to experience freedom. And

1:10:44

then you can be stay present with

1:10:46

a very unconscious person. It's challenging, but,

1:10:49

and then you grow in consciousness. And

1:10:51

the wonderful thing is, I

1:10:54

remember, after

1:10:56

I experienced a shift in consciousness, I

1:10:58

always had a resentment towards my father

1:11:01

with certain things he did. And

1:11:05

so, and suddenly I met

1:11:07

my father again after going through this

1:11:09

shift. And there was no longer any

1:11:13

resentment. He still had the same patterns

1:11:15

of behavior, but

1:11:18

there was no longer, I no longer

1:11:20

demanded that he should behave differently. I

1:11:23

realized he couldn't behave differently because

1:11:26

no human being can manifest behavior

1:11:29

that is beyond their level of consciousness.

1:11:32

And to demand that some human

1:11:34

being should manifest behavior that's

1:11:36

beyond their level of consciousness just makes

1:11:38

you suffer and produces an

1:11:43

very unnecessary antagonism

1:11:46

with the present moment. And

1:11:49

in the present moment, many

1:11:52

humans you counter are relatively unconscious,

1:11:55

but that doesn't mean in their essence, they

1:11:58

are not, they have the same. that

1:12:00

you have, the

1:12:04

wonderful thing is, when

1:12:06

you're no longer identified with

1:12:08

the conditioned mind and thoughts, you

1:12:12

can kind of sense when you

1:12:14

meet another human, sometimes

1:12:17

it's easier and humans with

1:12:19

whom you do not share a lot of past, just

1:12:22

humans you just meet, you

1:12:24

go to a supermarket, shake

1:12:26

out counter, and there's a

1:12:28

brief interaction, and

1:12:30

you're looking at that human, and

1:12:32

there's always, when you can

1:12:34

sense the essence of who you

1:12:36

are as presence, you

1:12:38

can sense it in the other, the being as

1:12:41

of the so-called other, and

1:12:43

that's a beautiful thing when you recognize that

1:12:46

same essence, the same consciousness

1:12:49

in you is the same consciousness that

1:12:51

is the essence of the so-called other,

1:12:54

and that recognition brings about

1:12:56

an end of the sense

1:12:58

of separation between yourself and the other.

1:13:03

There's a brief moment of connectedness,

1:13:05

of oneness, and that brief

1:13:07

moment of oneness, of

1:13:09

course, empathy arises through that, the

1:13:11

ability to have empathy, the

1:13:14

ability to have compassion, but ultimately,

1:13:16

what arises when

1:13:18

you recognize the other is

1:13:20

ultimately not other, but it's

1:13:23

a sensing, that is

1:13:25

the true meaning of love, not

1:13:29

the egoic love that says, I

1:13:31

want to, I must have you, don't you dare leave

1:13:33

me, not that kind of love, but

1:13:35

the true love is

1:13:37

really ultimately the

1:13:41

recognition of the other as

1:13:43

yourself, and

1:13:45

that is, and it's

1:13:47

not an intellectual thing, it's

1:13:49

you can sense the presence of the

1:13:51

other in your presence as one presence.

1:13:55

And that transforms every

1:13:57

relationship. Yes, some...

1:13:59

humans will still make it difficult for

1:14:02

you to have that realization.

1:14:04

And so there may be some

1:14:06

very obnoxious humans with

1:14:08

whom you still can't do

1:14:11

it, that's okay. You

1:14:13

might have to remove yourself. Some you

1:14:15

might not be able to do it,

1:14:17

that's fine. But it's a gradual process,

1:14:22

gradual realization. So human

1:14:25

interaction is great spiritual practice. I

1:14:28

highly recommend it. So thank

1:14:34

you. Thank you. Hi,

1:14:40

how are you? You, I

1:14:43

read your book at a very strong

1:14:46

moment in my life and it totally changed my life. So

1:14:49

that was like 15 years ago. But

1:14:52

my question is, what's the role the

1:14:54

pain body plays

1:14:56

in our ability to

1:14:58

become present and to see the

1:15:01

other person as love and

1:15:04

to see each

1:15:07

other as one, that I am that. What's

1:15:09

the role the pain body plays? Thank

1:15:13

you. Thank you. Now to answer that, because not everybody

1:15:15

may be familiar with a term that I use

1:15:18

pain body. Just very briefly,

1:15:21

use the

1:15:23

term pain body when to

1:15:27

speak of accumulated

1:15:29

emotional energy

1:15:31

that lives in you from the

1:15:34

past. That is painful experiences you've

1:15:36

had in your childhood, especially. They

1:15:38

leave residues of unresolved emotional pain,

1:15:40

often unrecognized emotional

1:15:43

pain, because

1:15:47

some children who suffer need to cut themselves

1:15:49

off from painful emotions. So the painful

1:15:52

emotion that's the old for

1:15:55

a child, that's the right thing to

1:15:57

do. It's to cut in order not too

1:16:00

much, they cut themselves off from painful

1:16:02

emotions, but it's it

1:16:04

remains, it lingers in you. And

1:16:07

emotion is in the form of

1:16:09

energy, obviously, everything is energy. So

1:16:11

you have an emotional field

1:16:13

of suffering in you. And other

1:16:15

things can contribute to it, like

1:16:17

other traumatic

1:16:19

events in your life or

1:16:22

what abuse and

1:16:25

all kinds of things can contribute to the

1:16:27

pain body that lives in you. And I

1:16:31

regard it as an almost an

1:16:33

autonomous entity, semi-autonomous entity that lives

1:16:36

in you as a little gremlin

1:16:38

being that lives in you.

1:16:40

And the pain body sometimes is dormant.

1:16:43

And sometimes it gets triggered often

1:16:45

in relationships. And then it

1:16:47

rises up into your mind and the

1:16:49

emotion floods the mind. You don't know

1:16:51

it's emotion from the past. Painfully,

1:16:54

emotion then floods your mind and

1:16:56

controls your thinking and reactive patterns.

1:16:58

And then normally in relationships, you're

1:17:01

suddenly involved in huge drama. And

1:17:04

in many relationships, they periodically have

1:17:06

to go through their drama when

1:17:09

one partner triggers

1:17:11

the brain body of the other. And

1:17:13

the pain body feeds on drama, which

1:17:16

it feeds on the appearance of further

1:17:18

pain. It's the vibrational frequency

1:17:21

that it lives on

1:17:23

is emotion, dramatic painful emotions. So

1:17:25

it wants the drama in order

1:17:27

to replenish itself. This is how

1:17:29

I look at it. And this

1:17:31

often happens in relationships. People go

1:17:33

through their pain body episodes and

1:17:35

then it subsides and then it

1:17:38

comes back. So pain body

1:17:40

is old emotion in you that sometimes takes

1:17:42

you over and sometimes is only

1:17:44

in the background. And

1:17:46

that of course, when you're completely

1:17:48

identified with it, it becomes

1:17:51

part of your ego structure. It's

1:17:53

part of who you are as

1:17:55

an egoic sense of self. It's

1:17:57

identification. Anything that you identify with...

1:18:00

which means derive your sense of self

1:18:02

from, is part of the ego. So

1:18:06

when you identify with this emotion, then it

1:18:08

takes you over. The

1:18:10

important thing is when you

1:18:13

encounter a pain body in another human

1:18:15

being, and you can sometimes

1:18:18

in, when you start living together

1:18:20

with somebody, there

1:18:23

comes a moment when you're very surprised that

1:18:25

suddenly this person gets taken over by this

1:18:27

very dark, destructive emotions.

1:18:30

Whoever, let's

1:18:32

say you have married the person and you haven't lived

1:18:35

together before, what did I do? Who

1:18:37

is this person that I married? Suddenly

1:18:39

this person comes, it's very aggressive

1:18:41

or dark

1:18:44

being. So it'd been taken over by

1:18:46

the pain body. The important

1:18:48

thing is to

1:18:50

recognize it for what it is. It's

1:18:52

not who that person essentially is. So

1:18:55

it's not so that compassion comes in when

1:18:58

you recognize that it's their old

1:19:00

pain talking through them, speaking

1:19:02

through them. And the

1:19:04

important thing is not to be

1:19:07

yourself, not to be taken

1:19:09

over by it in yourself so that you

1:19:11

don't contribute to this pain

1:19:13

body episodes. So you need to be,

1:19:15

when you're with a human being who

1:19:17

is suddenly taken over by

1:19:19

their pain body, you need to be extremely

1:19:21

alert. Like really,

1:19:24

you don't, it's not, you don't

1:19:26

cut it. You

1:19:28

can't cut yourself off from it, but

1:19:30

just alert press, very alert. And

1:19:34

so that you don't go into

1:19:36

a negative emotional reaction. It's not,

1:19:39

you're not suppressing it. Alertness is

1:19:41

not suppression. You're just very alert.

1:19:44

If you have a partner and your

1:19:46

partner is conscious enough to be talking

1:19:48

about this, sharing this with you,

1:19:51

then when you're both

1:19:53

conscious, in other words, not during

1:19:55

a pain body episode, talk about

1:19:57

the moments of drama you have.

1:19:59

in your relationship periodically when you

1:20:02

get really worked up emotionally,

1:20:04

it's very likely that it's the

1:20:06

pain body. And give yourself,

1:20:08

give the other permission to

1:20:11

point out to you when it happens

1:20:14

and ask, could this be your pain body? To

1:20:17

help the other to be stay conscious when it

1:20:19

arises. This

1:20:21

is dangerous territory. It's not easy,

1:20:24

but the moment the pain body

1:20:26

arises, if it's already

1:20:28

taken you over, it's already too late when

1:20:30

you say to the other who has already

1:20:32

been completely, the mind has already been taken

1:20:34

over. Say, could this be your pain body?

1:20:36

You will not get an answer from that

1:20:38

person. You will get an answer from the

1:20:40

pain body and it won't be pleasant. So,

1:20:45

and of course the pain body will accuse you with

1:20:47

having a pain body. It's not me. So

1:20:52

you need to be really, it's a very

1:20:54

delicate matter. Both

1:20:57

cooperate. You

1:20:59

can go beyond being forced

1:21:01

to act out the pain body relatively

1:21:04

quickly. But if both are

1:21:06

conscious enough to participate in this,

1:21:09

it's a, I don't

1:21:11

want to go too long, but just the very,

1:21:15

very, you need to

1:21:17

be really, it's one of the great challenges

1:21:19

that is the emotional aspect of

1:21:21

the human ego. Very

1:21:24

challenging, but ultimately it's

1:21:27

part of the deepening of presence

1:21:29

that you need. The

1:21:31

challenges deepen you. Eckert,

1:21:39

it's a pleasure. I can

1:21:42

say that you're the only person that

1:21:44

has written a book that I've actually

1:21:46

read over 50 times. Rather actually

1:21:48

listened to it over the past 15 years. Falling

1:21:51

asleep on it to see if even

1:21:53

the parts I could not understand would sink into

1:21:55

me somehow magically. And I believe they have. Thank

1:21:59

you, Tony. sage for making this possible, nothing

1:22:02

short of a true

1:22:05

goal that I had of meeting you. The

1:22:08

question I want to ask you refers to the

1:22:11

relative beginning of that book. You

1:22:14

describe quite well the

1:22:17

state of despair in which you existed pretty

1:22:19

much up to your thirties and

1:22:22

how the least expected day

1:22:25

everything turned. Can you

1:22:27

realize what we're all here to realize? Could

1:22:30

you, I'm about to ask you an impossible

1:22:32

question. I'm about to ask you how to

1:22:34

convey insight into words, but if somebody can,

1:22:36

I've seen that you can. Could

1:22:40

you let us all

1:22:42

into that day, that

1:22:45

experience, how

1:22:47

it happened? We

1:22:50

all want to get there. Thank

1:22:56

you, thank you. Now I

1:22:58

need to say it first.

1:23:00

It was a fairly sudden

1:23:05

dramatic shift. For

1:23:07

most people, the shift is a gradual

1:23:09

one, I have observed. Many,

1:23:12

many people are going through a

1:23:14

gradual shift in consciousness, not a

1:23:16

very sudden shift. It

1:23:19

just happens to be really sudden. I don't know why, as

1:23:22

I described at the

1:23:24

beginning of the book. At

1:23:28

nighttime, I would often experience

1:23:31

states of deep depression and a sense

1:23:34

of great kind of nihilism. The

1:23:38

world was so hostile

1:23:40

and alien, I just couldn't

1:23:42

stand it anymore. I couldn't

1:23:44

stand myself anymore with all

1:23:46

the problems I was carrying.

1:23:49

The words that came into my mind, I cannot

1:23:52

live with myself any longer. I

1:23:56

can't live with myself any longer. Anybody

1:23:58

who has these words. in their mind may

1:24:02

be approaching suicide.

1:24:05

And of course I had considered

1:24:07

suicide quite often. I

1:24:09

started considering suicide when

1:24:11

I was eight or

1:24:14

nine years old. I often thought of

1:24:16

how can I kill myself? But

1:24:19

I didn't. So, and I can't

1:24:23

live with myself any longer. Instead

1:24:25

of suicide, what happened was that

1:24:27

thought brought about an inner kind

1:24:30

of separation.

1:24:34

Oh yes, there was another thought after that.

1:24:36

And that thought says, I

1:24:40

cannot live with myself. Who is

1:24:42

the self that I cannot live with? And who is

1:24:44

that I? Are there two of me

1:24:46

here? Because that statement seems to

1:24:48

imply that there's two of me here. I

1:24:51

cannot live with myself. And

1:24:54

that was the last thought that came. And then

1:24:56

that thought brought about a separation of

1:24:59

my sense of self and my thought structures. Now

1:25:02

my sense of self had

1:25:04

been completely bound up with thinking,

1:25:08

unconscious thinking, self-serving thinking,

1:25:10

ego thinking. The

1:25:13

separation was consciousness separated

1:25:17

itself from thought and

1:25:20

thought kind of began to collapse. And

1:25:23

the I was no longer in

1:25:25

the thoughts. The I was pure

1:25:27

I, the pure beingness or presence.

1:25:30

At the time I didn't understand

1:25:32

it, of course, it just happened.

1:25:34

So consciousness withdrew

1:25:36

itself from being completely trapped

1:25:39

in thought and

1:25:42

separated itself. There was pure

1:25:45

consciousness. The pure consciousness was

1:25:47

the I, primordial I, the

1:25:49

I am, the presence. It

1:25:52

took me years before I could understand that. But

1:25:56

because I was no longer, so basically

1:25:58

what happened to self. The

1:26:00

mind made self that the Buddha speaks of,

1:26:03

Jesus speaks of kind of, was

1:26:06

no longer kept alive by identification

1:26:10

with thinking. So, and

1:26:12

the next day I thought was extremely peaceful.

1:26:15

And from then on, basically I was, there

1:26:17

was always a peace in the background. Why was there

1:26:19

peace? I didn't know why the peace

1:26:22

was there because the

1:26:25

mind made self had collapsed

1:26:27

and I, my

1:26:30

sense of self came from a deeper

1:26:32

place. So, it's

1:26:35

the, for most people, this

1:26:37

separation of consciousness

1:26:40

and thinking is a gradual process to

1:26:42

go back and forth. I see it

1:26:44

a little bit, ah, and

1:26:46

you look at it and suddenly you're

1:26:49

clear and present and free and

1:26:51

then something happens, trigger

1:26:54

happens, another person often and

1:26:57

you're completely back into, so gradually you

1:26:59

separate again and decay.

1:27:01

So it's, the essence of it

1:27:03

is this separation.

1:27:07

An unconscious person is complete,

1:27:09

the light of

1:27:11

consciousness and their thought

1:27:16

are completely one. And

1:27:20

then often through suffering,

1:27:23

eventually something happens and

1:27:25

you step out of the eye is

1:27:27

no longer in thought. You

1:27:30

can still think, but there's no eye

1:27:32

in the thoughts anymore. There's just thoughts.

1:27:35

Because the eye is prior

1:27:37

to thought. And that's

1:27:40

the realization. And if you

1:27:44

find, if

1:27:47

you've read the book several times, as

1:27:49

you might've noticed, you're no

1:27:51

longer really reading it after a while.

1:27:53

You don't read it anymore for new

1:27:56

information. You read it because the

1:27:58

act of reading can put you into... with that

1:28:00

state of presence and it feels good. And

1:28:04

so that's how a spiritual

1:28:06

book that came out of presence

1:28:08

can help others to enter presence because

1:28:10

there's mold in it. Somehow it's

1:28:12

a miracle. I don't know how it

1:28:15

happens. There's not just

1:28:17

the informational value in that book. There's

1:28:19

an energy behind the words. It's somehow is

1:28:22

crept into the book. I don't know how,

1:28:24

because it was written out of

1:28:26

that state of presence. And let's

1:28:29

see, there's another little book that I don't want

1:28:31

to promote

1:28:34

my books here. There's

1:28:36

another little book I wrote. It's called Still and Speaks.

1:28:39

And that's a book designed for just

1:28:41

meditative reading. And you just read a page

1:28:45

at the most or two pages at the

1:28:48

most and immediately, if you're alert

1:28:50

can put you in a state of presence. But

1:28:54

then this is all I can say about it.

1:28:57

The, it's the same process whether

1:29:00

it happens suddenly or gradually. It's

1:29:02

the same process of disidentification from

1:29:04

mind. The

1:29:13

Tony Robbins podcast is inspired and directed

1:29:15

by Tony Robbins and his teachings. It's

1:29:18

produced by us, Team Tony. Copyright

1:29:21

Robbins Research International.