0:02

This is the tortoise. The

0:09

podcast that

0:13

digs into the possibilities

0:15

of slow. I am your

0:17

host, Brooke McAlary, and I am joined by

0:19

Ben McAlary. Hello.

0:23

This is not a podcast. This

0:27

is a podcast. I

0:30

forget that we say that

0:32

I need to get back in saying podcast,

0:35

not a podcast because it suits

0:37

this podcast. Podcast sure,

0:39

doesn't it?

0:40

It's very plodding.

0:41

It's so we're such plotters.

0:45

I like it. Makes me feel a bit cozy,

0:48

to be honest.

0:49

Absolutely. Let's do a quick check in. How

0:51

are you feeling?

0:53

Pretty good. Pretty good.

0:55

Been a weird few weeks, but I'm

0:57

doing all right. Sitting here with you, having

1:00

a chat. Dogs at my feet. Happy

1:03

days. Yeah. Yeah.

1:05

Cozy. Comfortable.

1:07

Very cozy and comfortable. Exactly.

1:09

How are you?

1:10

Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I

1:12

just. We're. We don't record

1:14

in the afternoon very often. And

1:17

when you're listening to this podcast, we're recording

1:19

in the afternoon, so there might be some

1:22

energy differences.

1:25

Yeah, there might be some traffic noise differences.

1:28

I might be even more goofy than

1:30

usual.

1:32

Yeah.

1:34

But other than that, looking

1:36

forward to some holidays

1:39

very, very shortly.

1:40

So you're taking a week off, Which would be

1:42

great. Yeah. The kids have just

1:44

started school holidays, so. Yeah.

1:51

Yeah. I love this time of year.

1:54

Why? Why do you like winter?

1:55

Well, it's just kind of like the it's

1:58

going to say the beginning of the year. Beginning of the

2:01

new new financial year.

2:03

Woo hoo!

2:06

Accountants rejoice.

2:09

Apologies to any accountants I.

2:11

I like it because it

2:14

signifies the middle of the year

2:16

and it

2:18

like it's reminding me of how quickly

2:21

the year's gone so far.

2:22

Okay.

2:23

Yeah. Like, shouldn't it be March? Sure.

2:25

That's what it feels like to me anyway.

2:28

I often to be like just

2:30

going off on a little tangent here. I

2:32

often I have a bit of a conflicted

2:35

relationship with that whole like, gee, the

2:37

years flying by kind of talk

2:39

because it absolutely is like,

2:41

I actually cannot believe it is July.

2:44

Yeah. And it is the middle

2:46

break of the school year. Uh.

2:49

And I feel like every year

2:51

is going quicker than the last. Just to dive

2:54

fully into that cliché.

2:55

Absolutely.

2:56

But I also

2:58

don't. I don't want to lean too heavily

3:00

into it because then that becomes like

3:03

that becomes the norm, right? And all of us talk about how

3:05

quick everything's going and we sort of give up

3:07

and we give ourselves over

3:09

to the. Almost

3:12

unnatural speed of time passing. And

3:15

I don't I don't I don't like contributing

3:17

to that because I feel like that conversation

3:20

contributes to people's stress and I don't want

3:22

to do that, but I totally get it.

3:24

What's really stressing me out now is

3:26

our dog has picked up our daughter's

3:28

pillow and is literally destroying

3:31

it.

3:31

Well, he's dancing around. He wants attention.

3:33

He is. You know what I think

3:35

about this is the way that I treat it

3:38

as it's like I'm running

3:40

a long distance race.

3:42

Okay.

3:42

So I've started the year off

3:45

nice pace and

3:47

I've surprised myself. I'm halfway

3:49

through the race, okay? And I've

3:51

got so much energy left and

3:53

I'm going to finish so strong. That's

3:56

how I feel.

3:57

Well, that's.

3:57

Good. Now, what do you like this time of year?

3:58

I know it's.

3:59

Not always like that, but this particular race.

4:02

2023. Okay.

4:04

Doing well. I dig it. Yeah.

4:07

So anyway. Yeah, I just don't like. I don't like

4:09

contributing to that. You

4:12

know that feeling where everyone's like, I'm running out of time.

4:14

Oh, my God, everything's going so fast. And

4:16

life's like, passing me by.

4:19

So. It

4:21

feels slow. If it's nice

4:23

and slow. Good.

4:24

Yeah, very good. So

4:26

in today's episode, we're going to talk about

4:29

its tick tock.

4:31

Tick tock on the tortoise. Tortoise.

4:33

Tick tock.

4:36

And specifically taking kids. Yep.

4:38

And the relationship.

4:41

Of.

4:43

Our kids with tech.

4:45

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm.

4:47

Of our kids and not. We're not.

4:49

Look, we're not experts.

4:52

Nope.

4:53

Of anything.

4:54

At all.

4:55

Not a single damn thing. Which

4:58

is just the way, like.

4:59

You won't find two bigger generalists

5:03

in the history of the world than you and I.

5:05

So, yeah, we just want to say

5:07

that, though. We like we caution. Everything

5:09

we say is we're not experts

5:11

and anything. And the advice we

5:13

give is of general in nature. And

5:16

it's not.

5:16

Specific. We don't give advice, though. Circumstances,

5:18

do we give.

5:19

I was trying to sound like a financial services

5:22

ad, Sorry. Go on.

5:24

Yeah, I think we actually go to kind of

5:26

lengths to not give advice and I think your

5:28

word observations is and conversation,

5:31

that's really what we're doing here. And I

5:33

think the only reason I really want to say that is because

5:36

this is a really fraught topic

5:38

that people often feel

5:40

is laced with judgment, particularly,

5:43

I think, when you're talking

5:45

about it through the lens of slow living or mindfulness

5:48

or intentional living or whatever. It's

5:51

really easy to get defensive, and

5:53

I get it. I completely understand. I have

5:55

been there and will be there again myself many

5:57

times. So I think that's really

6:00

why I just wanted us to start

6:02

out on that fruit and just say, this is a

6:04

conversation. It's full of observations.

6:06

We have kids, our kids are 12 and 14,

6:08

so we've been through some stuff. We haven't

6:10

been through other stuff. Everyone's

6:13

situation, everyone's circumstances are

6:15

going to be different, but also every

6:18

single parent I know. Who

6:20

I've ever touched on the

6:22

conversation of parenting or tech or

6:25

anything in between with.

6:28

Everyone is struggling with it.

6:29

It's one of the biggest, if not

6:31

the biggest issues facing

6:34

parents today.

6:35

Yep.

6:36

I would agree 100% because

6:39

of the breadth of

6:41

it. We're not just talking about social media.

6:43

We're not just talking about, you know,

6:45

phone use. It's it's everything that

6:47

comes with. The

6:51

Internet, you know, and all technology

6:53

that is related like connection tech. I'm

6:56

not. I think that's really

6:58

what we're talking about is connection tech. So,

7:00

you know, anything Internet related, anything.

7:04

Connection related? Guess. Yeah.

7:06

All right, well, let's get into it. I want to start

7:09

the episode by. Having

7:14

a little quiz.

7:16

Pop quiz.

7:16

Pop quiz for you. A

7:19

couple of questions, if I could, just to get

7:21

a base level understanding of

7:23

of tech and and

7:25

the relationship. Predominantly

7:28

of of teens, but tweens as well

7:31

as some tween stuff in here as well. Anyway,

7:33

let me let's let's kick

7:35

off and we'll see how you go. What

7:39

is the most popular

7:41

online platform for

7:44

teens?

7:46

Like social media.

7:47

Social media? Yeah. This is all about

7:49

social media.

7:50

Okay. TikTok.

7:52

Okay. And, like, keep on

7:54

going. Like, what do you think's next?

7:56

Oh, you. So YouTube,

7:58

I don't know if you would classify.

8:00

This classified as as social.

8:02

Then YouTube first and then so. And then TikTok

8:05

and then Snapchat. Instagram.

8:08

Facebook.

8:10

Pretty good.

8:11

Yeah, pretty good.

8:12

You just mixed up. Snapchat and Instagram

8:15

are interesting. Instagram is slightly

8:17

more positive, more used

8:21

by about 3%.

8:22

Right. Okay.

8:22

Yeah, but yeah, YouTube.

8:25

Get this. 95%

8:30

of teenagers and tweens

8:33

have used on the

8:35

regular YouTube.

8:37

That does not surprise me at all.

8:38

That's unbelievable.

8:39

I saw a.

8:40

It's the most addictive.

8:42

Mm.

8:43

For me as well. Social

8:45

media channel that I've ever

8:47

known.

8:48

That's interesting because I'm not a YouTube

8:51

consumer. What I.

8:52

Don't like. So why.

8:54

Just.

8:55

I.

8:56

It's not on your radar?

8:57

Nope, I'm.

8:57

Not a visual learner. So I think a lot of people

9:00

find their way onto YouTube. Maybe

9:02

people our age. I'm not talking about kids necessarily

9:05

because they're looking for instruction

9:07

on how to do something and

9:10

whether that's like a holiday that they're planning

9:13

or a specific problem that they're having with

9:15

their computer or wanting to learn how to

9:17

crochet or so people will go to

9:19

YouTube. I don't learn.

9:21

Very informative.

9:22

I don't learn that way.

9:23

I can be totally sure.

9:24

And I get it. I completely understand it. You

9:27

have learnt loads of things

9:29

and if you run into a problem at home like

9:31

a, you know, an issue with a tool or something, you'll

9:33

go YouTube.

9:34

Definitely go to YouTube.

9:35

See, I will go and read about it.

9:37

I would not read a manual.

9:38

No, I.

9:39

Know I would go on YouTube and see it.

9:44

For like.

9:45

Practical reasons.

9:47

It actually annoys me that I don't.

9:49

Yeah, but it's not.

9:51

It's just not.

9:51

Part of your solution matrix.

9:54

No. Well, when I learned that whatever they.

9:56

What is that?

9:57

You're so full of crap.

9:58

It's like.

10:00

Corporate bullshit. Bingo. God.

10:05

When I learnt how to crochet.

10:08

I went to you.

10:11

Know, I tried. I did try, Yes.

10:13

And I found it so frustrating because

10:16

people who were doing the videos,

10:18

their brains didn't work the same way my

10:20

brain did. So the way they explain

10:22

things or the way they showed things

10:25

did not vibe at all.

10:27

I didn't get it. I had to find someone

10:29

who had photographs

10:31

and written instructions that

10:33

were in the same so

10:36

vain.

10:37

So you went.

10:37

On to a blog?

10:38

Basically. Yeah, it was. I think it was from like 2012.

10:41

So that's my brain. I guess that's where my

10:43

brain stopped developing back in

10:45

2012 or something. So

10:48

sorry, that doesn't surprise me. Going back to your quiz,

10:50

it does not surprise me.

10:51

So 95% followed by TikTok,

10:54

67%. Huge difference.

10:56

Instagram 62, Snapchat

10:59

59% and

11:01

lowly. Fifth place

11:04

Facebook with 32%.

11:06

Yeah, I'm in 2014.

11:08

Facebook 71%. Yes.

11:10

That's not I mean, that's not surprising. Everyone knows

11:13

that the only people on Facebook nowadays

11:16

are either our parents or

11:18

our parents parents.

11:21

Yes. All those.

11:23

Those 100 year olds on.

11:25

Facebook.

11:27

Um, but I guess

11:30

looking at, you know, that. So

11:33

the most common platforms, the

11:36

scary statistics start when you start

11:38

looking at how many times people

11:40

visit these platforms.

11:42

Per day or how.

11:43

Many hours they're on them.

11:45

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

11:46

So. YouTube

11:48

people just go down and,

11:51

you know, YouTube, there's

11:53

just videos that roll on and on

11:55

and on and looking at it and

11:57

look at TikTok short form. It's

11:59

very short form Instagram, very

12:01

short form Snapchat.

12:04

I guess I've never, ever been on Snapchat,

12:06

you know, So would not know and

12:09

never been on tip top. Tick, tip, top,

12:12

top shop Tik Tok

12:16

never been on Tik tok. I've seen and

12:18

this is the thing with YouTube. YouTube

12:21

has tik tok on it. Yes, it

12:23

has other I think

12:25

Snapchat type things as well.

12:27

It's got streaming. YouTube

12:29

is just like this big. It's like

12:31

a. Syndication,

12:34

Right.

12:35

So but also people will like there

12:37

was a meme going around about

12:39

two years ago saying, I don't I'm not on TikTok,

12:41

I'm too old to be on TikTok. I just see TikTok

12:43

videos on Instagram two weeks after

12:45

they were big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

12:48

that was me. When I used to use Instagram, I'd be

12:50

like, Yeah, I know what TikTok is. I'm I'm down

12:52

with the kids. And

12:54

then would proceed to talk about something that was big

12:57

three months ago. Uh, yeah.

13:00

So do you have any more

13:02

questions for me? Okay.

13:05

You like this?

13:07

All right. So thinking

13:10

about the

13:12

amount of time tweens

13:14

and teens spend on social media.

13:17

So now we're going on to consumption.

13:21

What do you reckon the average is?

13:24

I'm going to say something like 12 hours.

13:26

Okay.

13:28

15 hours.

13:29

Holy on average.

13:32

Okay, so that's.

13:32

An average figure. And all these

13:34

figures are from Pew Research Center,

13:37

figures from last year. So the 2022

13:39

figures, 15 hours.

13:41

Listen to.

13:41

This. Most kids are spending

13:43

more than five hours a day on social media

13:46

slash video games.

13:49

Okay. Well, that's a.

13:49

Weird thing to combine.

13:51

Well, not really. When you think about video games

13:54

are very social these days, as

13:56

in you're chatting to friends.

13:59

Not even friends, actually. Just randoms

14:01

you might find in a game you are.

14:03

You can hear them. You're communicating with

14:05

them also.

14:06

How much has the world changed since

14:08

when we were I mean, duh, since

14:10

when we were growing up.

14:12

The idea of talking like

14:15

literally having a conversation with

14:17

a random stranger on the internet

14:20

filled our parents with dread.

14:22

Right? Like, that was the thing. It

14:24

was stranger danger on, you

14:27

know, steroids because suddenly

14:29

you could connect with everyone across the world. And

14:31

now my kids, like. Talk

14:33

to people that they don't know, they'll

14:35

never know them. They don't actually really even

14:38

want to know them as people.

14:40

It's just like this connection.

14:43

Portal. Yeah, you

14:45

know. Sorry.

14:46

Who's playing the corporate bullshit?

14:48

Because I've

14:52

been watching too much of the office. That's what it is.

14:55

Just some more statistics. 32%

14:57

of teens surveyed said they were online for

15:00

5 to 6 hours. What are they?

15:02

They're at school. And anyway. 17%

15:05

reported being online for 7 to

15:07

8 hours and 13%.

15:09

So more than 1 in 10 teens

15:12

are online more than nine hours

15:15

a day.

15:15

But didn't you just say it was 15 hours, 15 average?

15:18

That's that's for everything.

15:20

Got you. Yeah. This is all.

15:21

Screens.

15:22

Yeah. Yeah.

15:23

Wow. So nine hours of social

15:25

media a day.

15:26

15 hours on a screen,

15:28

nine hours of which is on social

15:30

media slash gaming.

15:32

Unreal. Wow.

15:34

Um, and now for some

15:36

really sobering, really sobering

15:38

statistics, which, you know,

15:40

then we'll kind of get on with the episode. But

15:44

665%

15:47

of 8 to 14 year olds

15:49

have been involved in some kind of cyber

15:51

bullying incident.

15:53

What was the percentage?

15:54

65%. This

15:58

one. My jaw dropped.

16:00

90% of children aged eight

16:02

8 to 16 have

16:05

seen online pornography. 30%

16:09

of kids who use the Internet for over three

16:11

hours a day were

16:14

diagnosed with depression. That's a bit.

16:17

No, but there has been some

16:19

significant studies

16:22

released over the last couple

16:24

of months that are more

16:26

and more able

16:28

to tie the mental health crisis.

16:31

With the advent of

16:33

smartphones and social media like they are.

16:36

It's linked. So excessive.

16:37

Use of.

16:38

Technology. Um,

16:40

then you're going to have things like lower

16:42

attention spans. Like

16:46

that. Increased risk and lack of

16:48

privacy.

16:49

Yep.

16:49

Depression? Yeah. Obesity.

16:52

Falling grades. And

16:55

then like general, like social

16:57

interaction issues as well, like being

16:59

able to talk to people in

17:02

the real world.

17:03

There's so much in that that. Upsets

17:05

me and makes me it makes me angry

17:08

on behalf of these

17:10

kids. It makes me so

17:12

angry. And it makes me ashamed because.

17:16

You can almost.

17:21

You can forgive our parents generation

17:23

for. Not

17:25

knowing because like AOL

17:27

and, you know, what's AOL,

17:32

you know, instant messaging and.

17:36

My space.

17:39

Oh, those sorts of things. Yeah.

17:42

We didn't. No

17:46

one knew. What

17:48

the impact of that was. I'm sure there were

17:50

many people who were like, this is not

17:52

going to be good for yeah,

17:55

young brains. But there

17:57

was no you

17:59

know, there was.

18:01

It was more, you know,

18:03

isn't this great connection so.

18:05

Good, Maybe. Yeah. Like novel.

18:08

It's novel. It was a novelty.

18:09

But we knew famous famously.

18:12

For me, I had a boss who said

18:14

social media is a fad.

18:16

And you know what?

18:17

If you take the long view, he's probably not wrong.

18:19

Like, we may be seeing the end

18:21

of social media coming.

18:23

Definitely with Facebook.

18:24

Yeah, that's.

18:25

Right. I mean, something else is taking its

18:27

place over and over again.

18:28

Well, that's what I that's it.

18:30

Like social media as we know it is just

18:32

evolving into other things. Like

18:34

you wouldn't have classified YouTube as social

18:36

media but it is like you can chat to

18:38

people on YouTube. Comment like you want

18:41

to mean like the comments.

18:42

Yeah, yeah. And then you're getting, you know,

18:44

now I'm writing over on Substack.

18:46

That is definitely a form of social media.

18:49

Yeah, you can't.

18:50

Yeah, that's true.

18:52

You know, it's somewhere that people are creating

18:54

communities and stuff, but it is media

18:56

and it is social. You know, people are connecting and

18:58

people are able to interact.

19:00

So I'm just shocked.

19:02

Look, the 90% pornography

19:05

that just floored me

19:08

and makes me really upset.

19:10

It makes me angry. Like it makes

19:12

me angry for these

19:14

generations of kids who are just given

19:17

unfettered access to the Internet.

19:19

Yeah. And that is something that

19:21

I cannot.

19:24

I cannot understand. I

19:28

because we know like we know

19:30

what is as adults. We know what is

19:32

on the Internet. And I know

19:34

how damaging it can be to

19:36

me as an adult. Even

19:39

when you're not you're not looking for stuff

19:41

like you're not going out there looking for things

19:43

to make you upset or

19:46

to make you question yourself or to twist

19:48

your mind in horrible ways. You're not even looking

19:50

for it. And it's there and

19:53

it's really disturbing.

19:55

What's an eight year old brain going to do on that?

19:59

There are more and more studies coming out

20:01

showing the impact

20:03

of what porn can do to

20:05

young brains like and the

20:08

ripple effect of that of,

20:10

you know, self image, relationships,

20:13

intimacy, being able to,

20:15

you know, form and

20:18

maintain healthy, intimate relationships,

20:20

all of that. It.

20:23

Is so distressing to think

20:25

that 90% of

20:27

kids. Are

20:30

being exposed to some level of

20:32

porn, whether they want like whether they're searching

20:34

it out or not, You know, it's not.

20:38

It's. So,

20:42

yeah, that's why I. I

20:45

cannot understand. Kids

20:48

being given complete

20:51

and open access to the Internet.

20:52

Yeah.

20:53

And I think this is be a good time to for

20:55

us to share our tech. Rules

20:58

and regulations in this House.

21:00

Yeah.

21:00

Which are evolving always. And you know.

21:03

I shouldn't.

21:03

Say rules, guidance notes because

21:06

I think.

21:06

We have rules.

21:07

It's kind of. But they they've got to

21:09

flex, right? Like they've got to move. That's

21:11

why I like rules are quite hard and fast but

21:14

depending on. Assessments,

21:19

assignments, assignments, homework.

21:22

Like what

21:24

we're doing on a weekend. They

21:27

do flex.

21:28

Sure. Yeah.

21:29

Yeah. I understand what you're saying. I

21:31

think our mentality with kids, with

21:35

learning how to make good decisions

21:37

and we applied this to

21:41

things that they would spend money on and

21:44

the way that they would spend their time

21:46

and that kind of stuff was

21:48

that we have always tried to give

21:50

them boundaries. And

21:53

within which they are

21:55

allowed to make their own decisions.

21:58

And I think we've kind of maintained

22:00

that as they've gotten older. It's just that the boundaries

22:02

are getting bigger. But. There

22:05

are still boundaries, you know, and

22:08

I think that that has been important

22:10

for us and for them, because

22:12

any time they have tried to cross

22:14

those boundaries or, you

22:16

know, the boundaries have been crossed. We

22:20

can draw our attention to them. You

22:23

know, and that's the that's the starting point of

22:25

the conversation. So

22:28

both of our kids are in high school

22:31

now and they both got a

22:33

smartphone, their first one when

22:36

they started high school. So

22:38

our daughters had one for 18

22:40

months. Our son said one for six months roughly.

22:43

And it's not been without its bumps, that's for

22:45

sure. Uh,

22:48

one of them has social media. The

22:50

other one has no interest in social media at

22:52

this point, with the exception of YouTube.

22:55

Oh, okay. Let's not. YouTube

22:57

is social media. So, yes,

22:59

he's there's they've got. Social

23:02

media as far as I'm concerned.

23:04

Yeah.

23:05

And the platforms that they're allowed

23:07

on is an ongoing conversation.

23:10

Yeah. So Instagram

23:13

is something that because I understand

23:15

it, I've spent a lot of time on it.

23:17

I know a bit

23:20

about how. People

23:22

use it, but also how kids use

23:24

it. That was where we started.

23:27

And then there was a day where we were petitioned

23:29

very strongly for access

23:31

to TikTok.

23:32

Yeah, to.

23:32

The point where there was a presentation.

23:34

There was a.

23:34

Presentation made, which I appreciated. I appreciated

23:37

the dedication to the

23:40

to the cause. There was like a PowerPoint

23:43

presentation. It was awesome.

23:45

Reminded me of an American sitcom.

23:47

Sure.

23:47

Yeah. And so

23:49

TikTok was allowed for a while. A

23:52

TikTok isn't allowed anymore.

23:53

Let's talk about.

23:54

Why.

23:56

So it's been really interesting to

23:58

see. The

24:01

echo chamber, the algorithm,

24:03

whatever you want to call it, in play.

24:06

Because it happens on

24:09

YouTube as well. So this is a more general

24:11

comment. Um, but

24:14

you see the kids being

24:16

interested in something which is fine

24:18

and they go looking for content about that thing

24:21

and suddenly the algorithm

24:24

serves up more of that thing and

24:27

as we learning. And

24:30

I think we spoke about it a little bit on the wellness

24:32

episode, the social media and wellness episode a

24:34

few months ago. Content

24:36

creators recognize that

24:39

the more extreme their

24:41

content is, the

24:43

more engagement they're going to get. Whether that

24:45

is. Um.

24:49

Synthetic like weather. That's something

24:51

that the algorithm is doing or whether that's something

24:53

that people just like looking at things that

24:56

are that a little bit more extreme. And so

24:58

it actually does boost their engagement, I don't know.

25:00

But. Either

25:03

way. They

25:05

recognize that going more extreme with their content.

25:07

It's 100% part of their narrative.

25:10

Sure.

25:10

Which their strategy.

25:12

Yeah. Yeah.

25:14

Which is a whole other conversation. And

25:17

you just see the kids. Opinions.

25:20

You see their actions,

25:23

you see their.

25:24

This is just.

25:24

Through engaging and talking with them. That's

25:26

right.

25:27

Which is the.

25:28

Other which is going to be the flip side of this conversation,

25:30

I think. You

25:32

see, they're the lens through which they're viewing

25:35

the world and themselves in the world

25:37

change and slip. And it's

25:39

really scary. And

25:41

I think it's fair to say that we're fairly

25:43

engaged in this stuff. Like I

25:45

am probably one of the strictest

25:48

parents of my kids friends.

25:51

Like, I think

25:53

you're also.

25:55

Strict, but thank you very much.

25:58

No, you are like We agree.

26:00

Well, I'm trying to say is we agree on the boundaries

26:03

before we give them to the kids. It's

26:05

never one of us driving the bus without

26:08

talking to the other one. But

26:10

I think because of what I know, because of

26:12

the work I've done, because of the reading I've done,

26:14

because of the echo chamber that I exist

26:17

in, yeah, I get served up a

26:19

huge amount of content about how

26:22

how harmful all this stuff

26:24

is.

26:26

Totally.

26:27

So that's all you've.

26:28

Seen it through yourself and your actions

26:30

and your what you've done.

26:31

Yeah, but I.

26:32

Also happen to believe it, you know?

26:34

Yeah. Which is the.

26:36

All of.

26:37

It. No, not all of it. Definitely

26:39

not all of it.

26:40

That's the thing, isn't it?

26:40

Yeah.

26:41

So we have the capacity to

26:43

think critically. You and I have both

26:45

studied, you know, communications, and

26:47

through that, we've studied various ways

26:49

of analysing discourse.

26:52

And, you know, we understand a lot

26:54

of that. And we also read about

26:56

it because it's interesting. So we have

26:59

that set of tools

27:01

that we can use when we're reading or

27:03

being presented with information kids

27:05

don't have that. They have to learn

27:07

that. And when they're not learning it

27:09

at school, you know.

27:12

It's on us as parents to

27:14

have these conversations with them. So

27:18

that's the flip side of what I wanted to say, which is

27:20

I think the reason that we

27:22

were able to recognize that TikTok

27:24

in itself had become an issue was

27:27

because we kept having conversations and

27:29

because we and as a

27:31

parent, like everyone knows, when something's

27:33

up, you know, you have that gut feeling.

27:36

And it's just a matter of reiterating.

27:41

I'm here to talk, if ever you want to talk.

27:44

Is something going on? You know,

27:46

have you been upset by

27:48

something that you've seen? Like, let's talk about

27:50

this person. And I have no shame

27:52

in saying that. I was

27:54

very. On

27:58

it into I got a TikTok account.

28:00

Did you.

28:01

Know that?

28:02

To make sure that.

28:03

What the.

28:04

Dancing did you.

28:05

Do so much.

28:05

Dancing. Yeah. Dancing point

28:07

videos. That's my thing. Uh,

28:11

so you can call it spying if you want. Don't

28:13

mind. I don't think it's spying. It's more like just keeping

28:15

a. Finger

28:18

on the pulse of what's going on. Yeah, and.

28:21

I'd like.

28:22

That stuff would disturb me. Did

28:25

disturb me as an adult. So

28:27

it's kind of drawing your kid's attention to the fact

28:29

that. A lot of the content

28:32

they're watching is made by people not much older than them.

28:34

First of all, often. And

28:39

they don't have all the answers.

28:41

No one has all the answers. But, you know, if

28:43

you're 13, a 16 year old probably doesn't

28:45

have all the answers. And.

28:52

Helping them recognize that.

28:57

The more stridently someone speaks about

28:59

a topic isn't necessarily

29:01

tied to the level of truth

29:04

and accuracy.

29:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:07

But man, it is. It's

29:09

a job. Like, it's really tough.

29:13

Okay, so that's the platforms and

29:15

yeah, I think you've articulated

29:17

that pretty well.

29:18

So hang on. Going back to guidelines and stuff though.

29:21

Like.

29:22

This is what I'm going to get at now. So in terms of

29:25

duration.

29:26

Yep.

29:27

Uh, and looking at those averages

29:30

15 hours a day.

29:31

Um.

29:34

What? How

29:37

do you monitor the

29:39

usage?

29:40

So both of our kids have got Apple

29:43

phones and so do I.

29:45

And so do you. But they're tied to

29:48

my apple ID so

29:50

I can monitor their screen time on

29:52

my phone just because we set up as

29:54

like a family. I can't remember how I did it, to be perfectly

29:57

honest. But that's helpful.

29:59

Just to keep again, just to keep a

30:01

finger on the pulse of like what

30:04

they're actually doing, you

30:06

know? And I know. So their school

30:08

has a phone ban, a very strict phone ban,

30:11

which is awesome. And all public schools

30:13

in our state will be bringing first

30:15

phone in at the beginning of the

30:18

final term of the year. Yeah, I am.

30:20

So for that. Seeing

30:22

how their school has managed it,

30:24

I'm incredibly impressed

30:26

and I think the school benefits

30:29

over and over. The kids benefit, the teachers

30:31

benefit. Of course

30:33

kids are going to push back and they hate it and they

30:35

whinge about it and parents whinge about it.

30:37

But for me, I'm

30:40

all in.

30:41

So just just to interrupt. So do you have

30:43

do we have.

30:44

I should say.

30:46

Uh, like limits, daily

30:48

limits on on tech usage?

30:50

Oh, like not we don't have like

30:53

a 60 minute limit. We used to when they

30:55

were in primary school and it was like, can I play

30:57

Minecraft or whatever you say, Yes, you've got an hour. I'll

30:59

set the timer. Um. It's

31:02

tricky because both of them

31:04

will often have YouTube on while they're

31:06

doing other things, which again

31:08

does not compute for me. I can't do

31:10

that. But you can.

31:11

100% that.

31:12

Works. So you.

31:12

Work and you've got YouTube videos

31:14

on like that on.

31:15

So YouTube videos. I've

31:18

got music playing on YouTube or.

31:21

Like like you have.

31:21

A game like a sports match on.

31:23

Sometimes, correct? Yeah.

31:24

So I'll have like a sports

31:26

game in the background not playing a lot.

31:29

I could not do that for.

31:30

Some reason and it's because I've

31:32

worked in quite busy, noisy offices

31:36

with TVs on like kind of like newsroom

31:39

type places. For

31:41

some reason it just I

31:43

need that sort of background noise

31:46

sometimes, other

31:48

times. I'm.

31:50

Yeah. I don't have anything on. Yeah.

31:52

Yeah, they're like that. So they finish

31:54

their homework or. Or they

31:56

might be reviewing or revising

31:59

something they will have. And I've gone

32:01

in to our daughter's room and she's got

32:03

like relaxing music playing on,

32:05

on YouTube. Yeah.

32:06

Well, she likes watching. Yeah, they both like watching

32:09

like. Um,

32:11

like film critiques and like,

32:14

content about gaming and that sort of stuff.

32:17

Again, it's not my jam, but that's what

32:19

I've had to do as they've gotten older and

32:21

their their interests and their tastes

32:23

and their preferences

32:26

have started to really become their own.

32:28

And I'm like, That's not mine. That's okay.

32:31

Like I've had to let go of that. I've had

32:33

to go, okay. Their brains work differently to

32:35

mine. They can

32:37

do their revision, their science

32:39

revision while they've got this thing on

32:41

in the background or whatever. Um,

32:45

that's been helpful

32:47

for me to recognize that there

32:49

are many ways of. Existing

32:53

in like a tech connected world

32:55

that aren't going to be super duper

32:57

detrimental to the brain. So that's part of that echo

32:59

chamber that I was talking about before, like having to let

33:02

go of the quiet

33:04

black and white mentality around

33:06

that has been helpful for me, and I'm a hell

33:08

of a lot more relaxed than I used to be.

33:11

So we don't have like an, you

33:14

know, minutes per day kind of limit,

33:16

but obviously

33:18

there's no. Tech.

33:21

And until they've done their homework,

33:23

you know they can't.

33:25

Which is on a computer.

33:27

Exactly. And that's the other thing. It's really

33:29

hard to draw that distinction now, whereas

33:31

we used to write everything by

33:33

hand and it was like, you know, then you'd go and

33:35

play. Yeah, back in my day

33:38

I'd use a tablet and a piece

33:40

of chalk.

33:40

One thing that I'm

33:43

a real huge fan of

33:46

and it gets to this privacy

33:48

thing is open

33:50

door policy. Yes, the door needs to be

33:52

opened at all time. When you're using tech.

33:54

Yep. I don't care if I

33:56

can hear your conversation.

33:59

Yeah, often I don't because you're wearing a headset,

34:01

but at least there's that.

34:03

Like, it's just. It's almost like a reminder

34:06

for the kids. Like you're. Like

34:09

we're around. Like they're safe. Yeah,

34:11

like I'm looking after you.

34:13

And if they say, Oh, Dad, I need privacy, I'm like,

34:15

I'm protecting your privacy. Yeah. Yeah,

34:18

That's my.

34:18

Number one concern.

34:19

To a friend. Different situation.

34:22

But that's not that common, to be perfectly

34:25

honest. They don't sit and talk on the phone like we used to.

34:27

Um, so, yes,

34:30

open door policy. I'm not a big fan

34:32

of earbuds or headphones

34:34

when the kids are watching stuff. Yeah.

34:37

Yeah. I'm actually not a fan of

34:40

this. A lot of a lot of kids do it.

34:43

They keep their AirPods in

34:45

while they're talking to people now. And that is

34:47

something that I actually have a huge issue with.

34:49

And I've said it to both the kids. It feels

34:51

like there's a wall there between

34:53

it's rude. Sure. Yeah, that

34:55

feels like I didn't want to say that because it

34:57

sounds judgmental, but I

35:00

find it rude if it's our kids.

35:02

So I'm like, Take them out, let's

35:05

talk. But also in terms of,

35:07

you know, guidelines and stuff, the kids

35:09

will come home. We're really lucky

35:11

in that you or I is almost always

35:14

home when the kids get home.

35:16

So it's sort of part of

35:18

our afternoon rhythm

35:20

that they come home, they'll have something to

35:22

eat. Even if it's only 15 or 20 minutes,

35:25

they'll chat, they'll talk about their day, you know,

35:27

and it gives their brains a minute to

35:29

decompress because I know at

35:31

school they're on screens a lot. Not as

35:33

much as I think I assumed, but they are on screens

35:36

a lot. Then they've got like a

35:38

45 minute bus trip home. Apparently

35:41

they both listen to music a lot on the way

35:43

home, and I

35:45

believe that then they come home and I just

35:47

want them to have a minute to decompress, to talk,

35:49

to look people in the eye. I don't mind

35:51

if they're in a bad mood. I don't mind if they don't want to talk,

35:54

but to have the opportunity to. And

35:56

then it's homework. And then after

35:58

that, if there's nothing else

36:00

on, if there's no other activity, if there's, you

36:03

know. I'm not getting them to help with

36:05

dinner or whatever. They might play

36:07

a game or watch YouTube

36:10

and then later in the night. We

36:13

have a very strict no phones in the bedroom

36:16

for anyone.

36:17

That's for us.

36:18

And it has been like that for us in

36:20

our in our bedroom, especially

36:22

for as long as I can remember, since probably.

36:26

I know when the kids were really little, so probably the

36:28

first smartphone I ever had,

36:32

I would use it at night in bed.

36:34

Yeah. And that was it. That was

36:36

sort of the line in the sand for me. So

36:39

no one has a phone? Um,

36:42

no one has their computers in their rooms.

36:44

So we have.

36:45

Made it a big difference.

36:47

Absolutely.

36:47

Do you want to talk about the tech

36:50

box, if you like. Like

36:52

the tech?

36:54

Space. Yeah.

36:55

It's just somewhere that everyone can go and charge their phones.

36:58

One of our kids still uses his iPad.

37:00

Sorry about the noise. The dogs are being weird.

37:04

Um. Yeah, everything just gets

37:06

charged in the same place.

37:22

And that's it's like a visual reminder

37:25

for the kids to put their devices in the tech

37:27

box after they've like basically

37:29

at dinner time. Yep.

37:31

Because after that it's usually

37:34

unless one of them needs to

37:36

revise something for an exam

37:38

the next.

37:39

Day, 99% of the time.

37:41

It's not going.

37:41

To be like that. Yeah. So

37:44

what do you. How

37:48

could we improve? I

37:50

guess is the next question.

37:52

So there are definitely times where.

38:01

So there are definitely times where.

38:06

It's convenient. Even

38:09

at the age of the kids now, like

38:11

if you and I have a lot of work going

38:13

on, like

38:16

the kids are going to push the boundaries. Of

38:18

course they are. I would have as well at

38:20

their age. So I

38:22

guess just recognizing

38:25

that that's what they're doing and that's fine. That's

38:27

pretty normal behavior. And

38:30

B, maybe. I

38:33

don't know. I was going to say like have a whole lot

38:35

of alternatives for them. They know that I want

38:37

to do the alternative.

38:38

Covid really smashed us for that,

38:40

I think, because, yes, tech

38:42

was just such an integral,

38:45

an essential part of our lives

38:47

back then. Yep. And a

38:49

lot of the habits. A lot of

38:51

those. Usage

38:56

have just kept going.

38:58

Not not, not kept going.

39:00

But I feel like without

39:03

Covid, we'd be in a different space.

39:05

Would you agree with that?

39:06

No, I think that I

39:08

think that. Our

39:12

kids have a fairly moderate use

39:15

of tech and

39:18

we've got a fairly good grasp

39:21

on that at the moment. You know,

39:23

we have lots of conversations about it. They

39:25

roll their eyes about it, they get sick of me

39:28

talking about it, but I can always tell them

39:30

why. Yeah, we have

39:32

those points of view and why

39:34

it's not going to change or what things. We

39:36

are open to changing over time, you

39:38

know? And I think that Covid

39:40

hit at the stage where

39:43

the kids were still very much in our

39:45

sphere of influence and

39:47

now. That

39:49

sphere of influence has expanded a lot. Yeah.

39:52

You know, being in year seven and year eight

39:55

at a much bigger school, they're both older,

39:57

they've both got smartphones. So I don't.

40:00

Necessarily think that.

40:03

We would be in a different place

40:05

if it wasn't for Covid, I think. I

40:08

understand what you're saying,

40:10

but I think that would be the case maybe

40:12

if the kids were younger, but

40:14

it's sort of transitioning out.

40:17

Of Covid has happened at the same time

40:19

as them transitioning into. A

40:22

whole new phase of life

40:25

and phase of tech use. You

40:27

know.

40:27

I know what you're saying, but I totally disagree.

40:30

As is your right.

40:45

So moving on now. Do you want

40:47

to. For

40:49

a second part of the interview.

40:53

And what is it?

40:54

To close it out, we've got to close it out. Yeah.

40:57

Okay.

41:00

So. How

41:07

do you want to close it out?

41:08

So we kind of wrapped up with the guidelines. Yeah.

41:11

And then I said, What.

41:11

Would you want to change? And you didn't really answer

41:13

that question.

41:15

Okay, So let's go back to that. Okay.

41:18

So you asked me, though. Sorry.

41:20

Yeah. Going back.

41:21

To my original.

41:22

Question.

41:23

What would I change? What would

41:25

I. What would I do better?

41:27

Yeah.

41:27

And speak for.

41:29

Yourself. Speak on behalf of yourself. But also

41:32

with the kids as well, I guess. But do

41:34

not dare mention

41:38

me in this. Okay.

41:41

Um.

41:43

Sometimes I worry about.

41:47

The content that they're consuming.

41:49

And it's because.

41:52

I can't. I can't

41:54

watch it all. You know what I mean? Like I.

41:57

What do you mean?

41:59

You want to. You want to watch it before them?

42:01

No, I don't. It's. It's

42:04

not possible for

42:06

me to. Like

42:09

when, you know, our daughter started reading

42:11

more widely. I would

42:14

often read the books

42:16

before her. Yeah. So that

42:18

a I had something, you know, we had conversation

42:20

to, to have about it,

42:22

but be just as like a bit

42:25

of a screening. There weren't many things

42:27

that I stopped her from reading because I

42:29

think that it's important,

42:31

especially with, with books. And I know that was

42:33

certainly the case for me. That's how you learn,

42:36

you know, that's how you figure out

42:38

what you, you know what you like, where you

42:40

fit, all that sort of stuff. But

42:42

it was always good for me to know.

42:45

What was happening there and

42:47

the.

42:49

A laugh because it's so

42:51

strange. Books were basically

42:54

when I was our daughter's age.

42:57

I was reading Stephen King.

42:59

Right. Okay. Yeah. And

43:03

how messed up are you because of that?

43:05

Not at all.

43:06

That was more like that was me pushing

43:09

boundaries or almost, you know, that

43:11

was me going on websites

43:13

that I shouldn't be going on like

43:16

the equivalent. Maybe it's not.

43:17

I don't think it is, though. Probably not. This is what

43:20

I'm saying. I'm just.

43:20

I'm trying. Like, are we being too protective?

43:24

Sometimes I worry about that. I do. But

43:27

kids are a long time growing up and

43:29

I just think there is

43:31

so much out there that has

43:33

such detrimental impacts

43:36

on them. Like we were talking about porn. Yes, that's the obvious

43:38

one. But there's a whole

43:41

Internet worth of stuff

43:43

that can mess up a mind and.

43:49

I don't feel bad

43:51

about limiting access to that.

43:53

Yeah. So I think sometimes

43:57

I do tend to trust

43:59

our kids in terms of the content

44:01

that they're consuming because we have the open

44:03

door policy because, you know, they

44:05

know we.

44:05

Can get on a lot and because.

44:07

They know we can get on their phones at any point. They know that

44:09

we monitor their screen time via my phone. They

44:11

know all of that and

44:13

they're fine with it, which makes me

44:16

trust them. But I also know

44:18

how easy it is to fall into

44:21

spaces online that are not safe,

44:23

that are not okay, that are not going

44:25

to leave you feeling okay. And I

44:27

know that as an adult, as a, you

44:29

know, a tween, a teen,

44:32

someone who's still trying to.

44:33

Someone in.

44:33

Between. Yeah.

44:37

That's very easy

44:40

to, you know, to fall into

44:42

that that trap. So

44:48

I guess my answer to your question is

44:50

maybe. Monitoring

44:53

the content. I don't know. I don't know because I'm

44:55

really torn between what you're saying of like, are

44:57

we overprotective?

44:58

I think we're doing a pretty good job. Yeah.

45:02

Like at the moment, I think it's it's,

45:04

it's we're doing a pretty good job.

45:06

I'd like to slightly

45:08

reduce the amount of time there on YouTube,

45:11

but that seems to be like a problem worldwide

45:14

at the moment. I would like to stop the amount

45:16

of time I'm on YouTube.

45:17

So I have blown up about YouTube

45:20

recently. Like I really. I

45:24

hate it. I kind of hate it.

45:26

Do you? Yeah, I.

45:28

Why would you hate it? I'm

45:30

not out of any.

45:32

I hate social. Like I actually hate them all.

45:34

Okay, I really do. So he's going back to what I was

45:36

saying at the beginning of our conversation, how I get

45:38

angry and ashamed

45:40

because I'm ashamed that our generation

45:42

is failing our kids. Yeah, that's truly

45:45

how I feel. And.

45:48

I'm angry because bastards

45:50

like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk

45:52

and whoever else or the tech

45:54

bros are, they are

45:57

making billions of dollars

46:00

off people's misery and.

46:04

What's even worse is that most of the time

46:07

kids don't understand that they're miserable. Like

46:11

I'm going to get really emotional. It

46:13

really? It

46:15

makes me so mad that

46:18

people are making so much money

46:21

off. Mental

46:23

health crisis in kids. And I

46:25

know that the content creators on

46:28

the whole are not the problem. Like

46:30

I get it, most kids grow up

46:32

and they're like, I want to be a YouTuber. I want like,

46:35

they're not growing up saying, I want to

46:37

destroy someone's body image. I

46:39

want to spread misinformation.

46:42

I want to, you know, blow up

46:44

conspiracy. Like they're not saying that. No one's saying

46:46

that. They're like, I want to make fun videos with my friends.

46:48

It's this machine that people

46:50

get stuck in and that machine twists

46:52

things around and makes people

46:55

create content that is just

46:57

that slightly bit more extreme

47:00

and slightly and slightly and slightly until

47:02

you've got money wrapped up in it and you've got

47:04

all sorts of nefarious stuff wrapped up in it

47:07

and.

47:09

It is just.

47:11

Destroying the way the kids, the

47:13

way kids see themselves in the

47:15

world and.

47:18

That's no joke. That's not an easy

47:20

thing to come back from. It

47:22

is a crisis. I'm going to link in the show notes

47:24

to a study that came out recently.

47:26

I'm not across it enough to quote

47:29

any of it, but it was really

47:31

eye opening for me to see

47:34

the the data, like the black

47:36

and white numbers that show

47:39

the link, not saying which is causing

47:41

which, but showing the link between

47:44

the advent of smartphones and social media

47:46

with the beginning of the current mental

47:48

health crisis. Um.

47:51

Yeah. Without a. Without a doubt. It

47:53

is connected.

47:54

Yeah.

47:54

Like it's.

47:57

And then, you know, that's not even going

47:59

into the data

48:01

mining and, you know.

48:02

Algorithms.

48:03

And but.

48:04

Like the people who are selling all

48:07

the information about all the things that we watch and

48:09

all the websites we visit and, you know,

48:11

creating these. Uh,

48:15

you know, online versions.

48:17

I forget what the word is like the, you know, the

48:19

online versions of us that they then

48:22

sell to. Yeah. No, it's like

48:24

a there's a word and I've

48:26

just blanked on it, but.

48:27

Ready? Player one.

48:30

Sort of like an avatar, actually.

48:32

Like an avatar. Yeah.

48:35

They're creating these avatars of us based

48:37

on what kids are watching.

48:50

And they're using it to sell stuff. You

48:53

know, So, look, I could. I

48:56

could rant. I could.

48:57

But that's why.

48:57

I'm always shocked when the when you do get

49:00

ads on on

49:02

YouTube or Instagram, because

49:04

they're designed or they're they're

49:06

trying to be designed for you.

49:08

Right? Yeah. I mean.

49:09

And the amount of hair loss ones I've had

49:11

recently an erectile

49:14

dysfunction. Not a

49:16

happy man.

49:17

You hit.

49:17

40 and they're like, Well, obviously this.

49:19

Is relevant.

49:19

Oh, we should get one of these problems

49:22

at least.

49:23

But I mean, that's like basic that's like

49:25

birth date stuff, right? And

49:27

it's just kind of playing

49:30

the numbers, but it's when it's, like really specific.

49:34

Oh, no.

49:34

Specific things.

49:35

I shot.

49:37

That turns me off if it's really specific.

49:41

Like you mentioned something and

49:43

then you look at your screen and then it's, you

49:45

know, there's an ad for something like I just

49:49

it I disconnect. Then I'm like, I'll

49:51

put it down.

49:52

That's just too.

49:52

Spooky. It's just gross. And

49:56

I mean, what a. What

49:59

a mammoth topic that would probably hardly

50:01

scratch the surface on. So we probably will.

50:04

It's probably a revisit at some stage.

50:07

Yeah, I think it probably is. It may

50:10

even be like a. I

50:13

don't know. Like a alive.

50:17

Coal with people love coal.

50:20

I'm just thinking it literally just.

50:21

Dawned on you popped.

50:22

Into my head. But it could be something

50:24

that maybe if people are interested, um,

50:27

we could have, like, a community.

50:29

Discussion on it.

50:30

Yeah.

50:31

Yeah.

50:32

I don't know, because I think you're right. There's just.

50:37

There was a lot of emotion in that conversation and

50:40

hopefully some practical as.

50:41

We said at the start, it's one of the biggest issues

50:43

facing parents today, if not society

50:46

as a whole. Western society.

50:48

Yeah, and it's certainly not just kids. And that's

50:50

the other thing. I don't want kids

50:53

and I don't want our kids. I don't want any kids

50:55

to feel like. The

50:57

amount of time they spend on their screen is a personal

50:59

failing. And that's

51:01

something that we have said to our kids

51:04

many times, is, you

51:06

know, when the hooks get

51:08

their way into your brain, yeah, that's

51:11

not your fault. That is not

51:13

a failing on you as a person. That

51:15

is a failing, that is a design

51:17

of the system. Like you are up against

51:20

an entire industry of people

51:22

whose job it is, is to keep

51:24

your eyes on your screen. That's all. They

51:26

don't care if they're making you happy. They

51:28

don't care if they're making you sad. They don't care if your

51:31

mental health is crumbling because of

51:33

what they're serving you. All they care

51:35

about is your eyeballs on that screen.

51:37

So I think reminding our kids,

51:40

not making them feel like

51:43

they're failing somehow,

51:45

and also reminding ourselves

51:47

when we beat ourselves up for the

51:49

exact same reason. This

51:52

is not a personal failing. This is not

51:54

a moral failing. This is not a reflection

51:56

on you not being

51:58

strong enough or strong willed enough.

52:01

This is the machine.

52:02

It is.

52:04

And. I

52:06

think that's a really important, compassionate

52:08

thing to begin with.

52:10

And of those words that you used

52:12

then saying that it's not your

52:14

fault, you've used those with our

52:16

kids. So I know. They

52:20

work, you know, engages

52:23

with them in a way that they're like, wow.

52:26

Makes them think. Yeah. It

52:28

really makes them think, Yeah. Now

52:30

let's jump over to

52:33

talk about.

52:35

So our reflection. You know, we

52:37

always like we have a conversation our reflection.

52:39

Yeah. And it's always just something that I have

52:42

consumed over

52:44

the past few weeks that has.

52:48

I don't know, lit me up or interested me or

52:50

got me thinking. So previously

52:52

it's been an article that I've read or

52:54

a comment over on Substack.

52:58

So this time it is a documentary,

53:01

one that I watched

53:03

yesterday. I was lucky enough to get a pre

53:05

screener from the pre-release screener,

53:08

from the producers

53:10

who asked actually if I wanted to have the

53:13

director on as a podcast

53:15

guest and we don't do interviews anymore. They

53:18

sent me a and.

53:18

I said, no way, Jose, I'm

53:20

the only guest on this show.

53:22

Now. Exactly.

53:23

And they sent me a screener

53:25

anyway, and I loved it. So

53:28

it's called Rachel's Farm, and it

53:30

is a I

53:33

know some of the people involved were

53:35

the same team who made 2040

53:37

a few years ago, which was.

53:39

Great.

53:40

Documentary.

53:40

Really awesome documentary, Hope

53:43

Filled. And. You

53:45

know, ask the big questions about what

53:48

the world might look like in 2040. If

53:50

we did these five things. This

53:52

is in a similar vein,

53:54

and it's very uplifting, but it's

53:56

also a much smaller story.

53:58

So Rachel is Rachel Ward, who is an

54:01

actress.

54:02

Australian actor.

54:03

She's English actually.

54:05

But English actress.

54:06

She lives in Australia, has for a long time,

54:09

is married to Brian Brown. The most Australian

54:11

of actors. Isn't Brown.

54:13

Isn't he.

54:14

A New Zealander?

54:15

Oh God, don't think so.

54:16

I am going to check that while you keep going.

54:18

Russell Crowe is.

54:19

A New Zealander. I know we like claiming things

54:21

for ourselves, but anyway,

54:24

so she owns

54:26

some property up on the Northern

54:28

Rivers and.

54:31

The entire premise of the

54:34

documentary is her transitioning

54:37

that land to regenerative

54:40

farmed land region

54:42

agriculture. Sorry, Go ahead.

54:45

Pannonia He was born. So

54:47

a very Aussie, very Australian.

54:50

Uh, what I really like

54:52

about it is that

54:55

she begins by basically

54:57

owning up to her own ignorance. And

55:00

the story also begins as

55:02

a result of the Black Summer bushfires

55:05

and her personal despair

55:08

and the depression and the

55:10

anxiety and the overwhelm and almost the.

55:13

Complete shutting down that she did emotionally

55:16

as a result of it. And that is something

55:18

that I can relate to very closely.

55:21

Yeah. Um, she

55:23

called herself thin skinned at one point

55:25

in the documentary in that she feels things

55:27

incredibly deeply and they really affect her.

55:29

And I.

55:30

That's you? Yeah.

55:31

You got translucent skin.

55:32

Yeah.

55:34

I'm sure sometimes I don't even have any skin.

55:36

Um. So

55:39

I know that there are a lot of people who

55:41

read at the Tortoise and who listened to

55:43

the podcast who are similarly inclined. Like

55:45

we've got a lot of big feelers in

55:47

our audience, and I think that this

55:49

will resonate with them

55:52

because of that, but also

55:54

because they're people who are looking for

55:57

a way forward. And this was

55:59

Rachel Ward's way forward. She's like,

56:01

I used to run cattle on this land,

56:03

and over the last 30 years,

56:05

we have degraded this land. And

56:08

they showed like they measure their topsoil

56:10

and there's hardly any left and there's no

56:13

biodiversity. And, you know,

56:16

it's about the very

56:18

long, very real, very honest process.

56:20

Very slow.

56:21

Well, yeah, very slow.

56:23

Tortoise the.

56:24

Process of. Regenerating

56:27

that land through using.

56:30

Cattle through using indigenous

56:32

wisdom and knowledge. It's really,

56:35

really cool and

56:38

very human like they.

56:41

Make mistakes. They show

56:44

the tough stuff, you know,

56:46

and I don't think we see that

56:48

very often.

56:49

What was that show that we watched during

56:52

lockdown, I think. And it was an

56:54

American. It just sounds a bit like this,

56:56

where they ran a farm.

56:58

Like Apricot.

56:59

Lane.

57:00

Farm or something like that. And they had the pig.

57:01

Yes, that.

57:02

One. Yeah. Yeah. Not dissimilar.

57:04

I don't think.

57:05

I feel like it's very.

57:06

Similar to that.

57:06

Yeah.

57:07

And. It's

57:10

interesting to me for a few reasons. So

57:13

these guys, they run cattle and that

57:15

remains part of their business

57:17

strategy is to run cattle.

57:19

She's a vegetarian and

57:21

she's like, that was partly because of, you

57:23

know, environmental reasons. So to

57:25

see her not become

57:28

not a vegetarian, but to see her recognize

57:30

that running cattle responsibly

57:32

and regenerative can actually become

57:35

part of the solution was

57:37

really interesting. And also because

57:40

their property used to be managed

57:42

by an older farmer who

57:45

was very traditional, very industrial

57:47

farming with his methods and

57:50

for very good reasons, you know, it's the way he'd

57:52

always done it and it had always served them fairly

57:54

well. His son comes in and

57:57

after a number of years says this is not sustainable

57:59

and goes around. His

58:01

dad has a lot of difficult conversations

58:04

with his dad about changing the way

58:06

they farm. And his dad's like, I can't

58:08

I can't agree with you. So it's like this

58:11

microcosm of generational

58:13

change of, you

58:16

know, a new generation of people coming up. And

58:20

being prepared to put their money where

58:22

their mouth is, quite literally in some instances

58:25

and make the difficult.

58:29

You can't literally put your money.

58:31

Right.

58:31

Where your mouth is. Anyway,

58:35

I found it really inspiring. I found

58:37

it really uplifting.

58:39

Um. I felt

58:41

like. Um,

58:47

I felt like, hopeful.

58:49

I felt. Yeah, that was possibility

58:52

wrapped up in it, you know?

58:53

Um.

58:54

Did it make it feel accessible

58:56

or not? Or did it make it sound

58:59

like it's two too much hard work?

59:01

What?

59:01

It made it. It sound like it's a

59:03

lot of hard work and probably too much hard work for

59:05

most people to do, including Brian Brown.

59:08

Actually, he even said that he's like, I couldn't

59:10

do what they're doing. There's no way you don't don't

59:12

want to work that hard. But.

59:16

It made it. Accessible

59:20

to us as consumers.

59:23

To be supporting people who are doing this work.

59:26

No, that's that's where change

59:28

comes. Like, there's going to be a select group of people

59:31

who have the knowhow, who have the money,

59:33

who have the capacity, who

59:35

have the land and the desire.

59:37

That's not not going to be a lot of people.

59:40

But if everyone who believes

59:42

in what they're doing supports them when

59:45

they can, they're going to be

59:47

able to continue doing what they're doing. You know?

59:49

And I thought that was a really. Important

59:53

part of the whole message. We

59:56

sort of. Making

59:58

clear how it is

1:00:00

a system. And a

1:00:03

number of people said in the documentary, everything

1:00:05

and everyone is connected and that goes

1:00:07

to. Rewriting

1:00:10

the rules of the system. You know, we don't

1:00:12

have to be reliant on. A

1:00:14

couple of big industrial producers we can actually.

1:00:18

Shift to a more community minded, regenerative

1:00:20

minded way of attaining

1:00:23

food, not just meat.

1:00:25

You know, she also talks a little bit about vegetables

1:00:28

and things. So anyway.

1:00:30

Where can.

1:00:30

People go to.

1:00:31

Find out?

1:00:31

In Australia it is being released in cinemas

1:00:34

the first week of August

1:00:36

on a limited run at this point. But if there

1:00:38

is a cinema near you screening

1:00:41

it, I just really recommend

1:00:43

and encourage you to go because

1:00:45

the more bums in seats they get at

1:00:48

these films, the more sessions

1:00:51

they're going to be able to run, the more, you know, successful

1:00:54

it will be. But I know Rachel Ward is actually

1:00:56

doing quite a significant tour

1:00:59

with the film, so

1:01:01

check on the film. I'll

1:01:03

leave a link to this in the show notes to

1:01:05

the website, but check over there and see if

1:01:07

she's coming to somewhere near you. You

1:01:09

might want to go along and have

1:01:11

a listen to a Q&A with her. I

1:01:14

know in the States she's touring

1:01:16

September, October, and I'm

1:01:19

assuming that not long after that it will

1:01:21

be available to stream. Um.

1:01:25

Whether it's on Apple or it

1:01:27

gets picked up by one of the streamers, I don't know. But

1:01:29

yeah, definitely go over to a website

1:01:31

Rachel's farm.com you think it

1:01:34

is and you can get on the mailing list

1:01:36

and check out what they're doing. But yeah,

1:01:38

I thought I really wanted

1:01:40

to put that in front of people

1:01:43

because I really enjoyed it.

1:01:45

Well, that's been a. Pretty

1:01:48

long and winding episode really

1:01:51

been interrupted a lot.

1:01:53

But we've persevered. We have.

1:01:56

We're going to spare the listener

1:01:59

to those interruptions, so we'll do some editing.

1:02:01

Even though this is a non edited

1:02:03

podcast, it's.

1:02:04

Typically very non edited.

1:02:06

But some of it is quite

1:02:09

unlistenable.

1:02:09

So no one needs.

1:02:10

To hear the dogs barking that much new. Well,

1:02:13

honey, enjoy your holiday.

1:02:16

I'll be there.

1:02:17

You're coming. Just

1:02:19

a nice little week holiday to,

1:02:21

uh. Yeah. Reset for

1:02:23

the beginning. Beginning

1:02:26

of the financial year. Why am I your

1:02:28

best with this?

1:02:29

You're not even.

1:02:30

Accountant.

1:02:31

Oh.

1:02:33

Anyway, that's fine. We can have a little New Year's Eve party

1:02:35

if you'd like.

1:02:38

Very good. Very good.

1:02:40

Well, we'll be back in your ears next month.

1:02:42

But in the meantime, if you

1:02:44

want to know what I'm up to, I'm writing

1:02:47

over at the tortoise a couple of times

1:02:49

a week. Most weeks. If you

1:02:51

wanted to head over there and jump on the tortoise

1:02:53

mailing list, I would love to have you. There's

1:02:56

quite a few thousand of us over there now, and

1:02:58

it's developing into a really beautiful

1:03:01

little corner of the Internet or some little community.

1:03:04

Um, so yeah, head over to Brooklyn Gallery

1:03:06

substack.com if you want to join us

1:03:08

over there. That's where you'll also find

1:03:10

the links in

1:03:13

from today's episode. I

1:03:15

think that's it.

1:03:24

We always value your feedback whether that's.

1:03:27

Yeah. Over on the sub

1:03:29

stacks or

1:03:32

iTunes, Spotify ratings,

1:03:34

reviews, likes and shares or

1:03:36

very appreciative of of that.

1:03:38

So also if.

1:03:40

You're very.

1:03:41

If the idea of having a conversation about

1:03:44

technology like if

1:03:46

you know kids or if there's something

1:03:48

in particular.

1:03:49

Because we know this is a this is a

1:03:51

big topic for the amount of questions

1:03:53

we've had on this topic over

1:03:56

the years, it would have

1:03:58

to be in the top three themes

1:04:00

and topics to discuss.

1:04:02

Yeah, it's certainly something that we

1:04:04

would consider maybe hosting.

1:04:08

Q&A or something with our community.

1:04:11

Do a live.

1:04:11

Podcast.

1:04:12

Well, maybe we maybe we could.

1:04:14

To to tortoise subscribers.

1:04:17

Yeah. I going to be pretty fun. Okay.

1:04:19

So anyway, if that interests you at all, if

1:04:22

you feel like there's more mileage to this

1:04:24

conversation, leave a

1:04:26

comment on today's episode

1:04:29

and.

1:04:30

Leave a tortoise emoji. Okay.

1:04:34

Sure. That's quick.

1:04:35

I like it. Love that little tortoise emoji.

1:04:37

He looks very friendly, but, you

1:04:39

know, and we'll take a level of interest from

1:04:42

there and see what happens. But until

1:04:44

then, peace. Have

1:04:46

a wonderful day. Take good care.

1:04:48

And we'll see you soon.