0:02

The tortoise. A

0:05

podcast that digs deep. Into

0:09

the power of slow. I'm

0:13

your host, Brooke McAlary, and I am

0:15

joined by my husband, Ben McElroy.

0:18

What beautiful bird noises

0:20

we're hearing outside.

0:23

Unedited baby.

0:26

What birds are those? That's a

0:28

that's a cockatoo. That's a white cockatoo. And

0:30

one of those.

0:31

Songs, I think.

0:33

So it's just been raining here, and

0:35

I feel like they always do it once

0:38

it's rained.

0:39

Carol Wong's and Magpies love their warbling

0:41

caroling sounds.

0:45

Then non stop. It's nice.

0:47

It is nice. It's really nice. Welcome

0:49

to episode one of the Tortoise.

0:52

What a momentous occasion.

0:54

Isn't it just. Isn't it? Isn't it?

0:57

I guess we wanted to first of all, just go

1:00

through what it is the

1:02

format of the podcast

1:04

moving forward, because it's going to

1:06

be obviously different to the Slow Home podcast.

1:09

But we're going to be coming back to a number

1:12

of, I don't know, reoccurring topics,

1:14

if you like, throughout the

1:17

episodes.

1:19

Yeah, yeah, kind of segments,

1:21

almost for want of a better word segment.

1:24

That sounds highly produced.

1:26

Well, this is not that. So take that back.

1:30

Yeah. So we want to kick off today's

1:32

conversation, talking about a

1:34

topic that. I've

1:37

been working

1:40

on, if you like, or kind of

1:42

the. Deliberating

1:45

on. Yes. For for a couple

1:48

of months. And

1:50

we also want to the

1:53

idea behind this podcast is to deep

1:55

dive onto a topic into a topic. So

1:57

we've read quite a lot on the topic.

2:00

We're not going to not always cite

2:02

resources, but it's just our observations

2:05

based on what we've read and what we've heard and what

2:07

we've looked at.

2:08

And viewing stuff through the lens of

2:11

SLO, you know, and the lens that we've developed

2:13

ourselves over many years of

2:16

trying to live a slower kind

2:18

of countercultural. Way

2:22

of life, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So

2:24

it's kind of viewing. Things

2:27

that they expand beyond the home. And

2:29

I guess that's one of the things that I really. Wanted

2:32

to move away from. As much as I loved

2:35

the slow home pod to

2:37

move beyond that, you know,

2:39

into work, into community, into health,

2:42

into family, into all that sort of stuff

2:44

that didn't necessarily fit

2:46

neatly into the

2:48

conversation around home, even though we tried

2:50

to be as expensive as possible with that, I

2:52

think some of the stuff that we're going to tackle that we plan

2:55

on tackling this year on the Tortoise is.

2:58

It's just not necessarily stuff that we felt

3:00

we could talk about on

3:02

the podcast as it was. So yeah,

3:04

I'm excited to be able

3:07

to do that with. Freedom,

3:09

you know? Sounds like we were locked

3:11

in. We weren't. But, you know, it just feels.

3:15

Exciting. Yeah, it does. It really does. It feels

3:17

refreshing. It feels. We've

3:20

got our podcast,

3:22

I got my Bud cast, baby.

3:25

We've got our

3:27

podcast format

3:30

back, which is Feels nice.

3:32

It does go nice. Yeah. So yeah, today

3:34

we're going to dig into that topic and then we've also

3:36

got an article

3:38

that I wanted to talk about because

3:41

I kind of it's really nice,

3:43

but it's all.

3:47

Yeah.

3:47

Yeah. There's an article that I would like to

3:49

talk about because it kind of came

3:51

up over on the tortoise Substack a few

3:53

weeks ago, and

3:55

I've been thinking about it a lot since, and then we're going to have

3:58

a check in and. Yeah.

3:59

All right. Well, that's the format.

4:02

Very loose, but that's,

4:04

I don't know, come to expect that because

4:07

that's what it's going to be like moving forward. So

4:09

join with us now. Grab your favorite

4:12

cup of something, whatever

4:14

it is. Cup of Joe. Cup

4:17

of water. Glass of water.

4:19

What are you drinking, bro?

4:21

Absolutely nothing.

4:22

Me neither. We need to probably hydrate.

4:25

Let's get into it. Translation

4:30

for that is Brooke, how are you?

4:32

Oh, I'm very well, Mr. Cockatoo. Thank

4:34

you for asking.

4:36

So this is a check in. We're going to do this

4:38

every episode. So.

4:41

Yeah. Tell us, how

4:43

are you joining us today?

4:45

Uh, I'm joining you wrapped

4:48

in a blanket. I feel

4:50

like I'm fighting off a virus if I'm being

4:52

perfectly transparent

4:54

with you. But I'm all right. I went

4:57

to bed at, like, 8:00 last night. I'm pretty

4:59

early. Feeling well rested, felt

5:01

necessary, and I'm

5:03

good. I'm good. How about

5:05

you?

5:07

Um. I don't

5:09

feel quite as rested. Disclosure.

5:12

Recently, I. I invested

5:14

in one of these. Fitness

5:17

trackers. And

5:20

become a kind of obsessed with it.

5:22

This is the problem that people find with them. And

5:24

you.

5:24

Know what? I get it.

5:25

I think I will be obsessed for the first

5:27

two weeks and then I'll be like, That's

5:29

my personality. It's like, okay, this

5:32

is cool and I'll obsess about it. And then I'll

5:34

be like, Oh, that's not worth obsessing

5:36

about. So it's like the length of like

5:38

the optimal length of sleep you're getting

5:40

and the quality of the sleep

5:43

and your sleep score and recovery

5:45

and strain and all that sort of stuff. So I'm,

5:48

I'm lying in bed going, Ben, relax,

5:50

because your sleep score isn't

5:52

going to be good if you don't go

5:55

to sleep soon.

5:57

I get it though. So I've worn one of those

5:59

rings like a sleep tracking ring for a couple

6:01

of years. And the first probably

6:04

month that I

6:06

wore it, it was the first thing I'd check

6:08

in the morning, you know, And. Uh,

6:12

the nights that I would wake

6:14

up in the morning, I felt like I had a pretty good sleep. And

6:16

then I'd look at my sleep score and be like,

6:19

it says, it was terrible. Oh, I'm so

6:21

tired. Was I tired because my

6:23

app told me that I didn't sleep well? Was I tired

6:25

because I actually

6:27

was tired? And

6:29

you're right. Like that disappears

6:32

after a while. It is still really helpful

6:34

and really handy at tracking

6:38

long term. It's good to be long.

6:39

Term, right? Like it just can't be that short.

6:41

But I think focusing on each night.

6:43

Is that's.

6:44

Going to be exhausting pretty quickly. Yeah. So

6:47

I don't think I'll be obsessed with that

6:49

moving forward.

6:50

How was your sleep score last night, though? Just had a.

6:52

90%.

6:53

It's pretty good. It's okay. It's pretty

6:56

good. Yeah. I'm a sleeper. Yeah.

6:58

You are. You're very talented.

6:59

I'm pretty good at sleeping.

7:02

But. Yeah, so I feel. I feel okay.

7:05

I feel okay.

7:06

Yeah. You've been sick the.

7:07

Last couple weeks.

7:08

And look, all all the symptoms

7:10

of COVID. But didn't have it. But

7:12

just exhausted. Just maybe like

7:14

the old common cold.

7:17

Right?

7:17

Yeah. Well, it's. It's going around.

7:19

It's doing its thing.

7:20

Doing its thing.

7:22

And it is sort of weird, isn't it, when you have

7:24

a cold and you're like, but it's not COVID.

7:26

And so you think people are going to be less

7:28

sympathetic almost or.

7:31

Yeah. Take you less, you know.

7:34

Seriously. Seriously.

7:35

Like, it's weird, isn't it? Yeah. It's still a cold.

7:37

It's still were.

7:38

You were sick. You were literally in bed for three days. So.

7:41

And that does not really happen very often.

7:43

Yeah. I'm glad you're feeling better.

7:45

I'm feeling okay. So that's how.

7:47

That's how we are today.

7:49

Yep. As we.

7:50

As we now move on to

7:53

our, I guess, topic of the podcast.

7:56

And do.

7:57

We think that plug I think podcast is

7:59

funny, but I don't really know.

8:02

Time will tell.

8:03

Okay.

8:05

So we're going to talk about

8:07

this idea of the four day working

8:09

week.

8:11

Hot.

8:11

Button issue in Australia.

8:12

At the moment really is.

8:14

Like countless articles that

8:16

have been written in the media recently

8:19

following two Australian

8:21

political parties coming out recently and

8:23

putting forward a proposal or legislation

8:26

for a four day workweek at

8:29

full pay following a

8:31

number of trials internationally.

8:33

I think the US have led

8:35

the way and I think the UK.

8:36

The UK as well. There

8:38

was a number of trials.

8:40

There was there was a trial in Australia that has just

8:42

ended and I think that a lot of the findings have

8:44

gone into the report

8:46

that was put towards the parliamentary committee

8:48

recently because

8:51

it was overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, funny.

8:53

That well, this.

8:54

Is the this is what we're seeing is that

8:56

almost every article, 99%

8:59

of the articles I've read, they're

9:02

the results are all very,

9:04

very positive from not only.

9:07

Uh, the, the mental aspect

9:09

of a mental health aspect of it, but from

9:12

productivity, from

9:14

morale, all the all like you

9:16

look at all the indicators and they're all very, very

9:18

positive. Based on what

9:20

a four day workweek could look like

9:22

now full disclosure at the beginning of this

9:24

year, in January, you know, you'll always

9:27

have well, is it a New Year's

9:29

resolution or is it a theme? Is it a

9:31

I don't know what it is. We don't we don't really

9:33

do New Year's resolutions,

9:35

but we do have things that we like

9:37

to focus on this year and.

9:41

For you. Remember, we're sitting. Sitting

9:43

down at our kitchen table, and

9:46

you came up with the concept of

9:48

the 1%. Yes. And.

9:51

Or I didn't.

9:52

You didn't come up with it?

9:54

I tapped into it myself. Yes.

9:56

Yeah.

9:56

And you. You started to explore

9:58

that and what that could look like from a

10:01

in a slow living lens. Yes.

10:05

Which will go on to talk about in which you've written

10:07

about.

10:07

Yeah. And we'll link to all of this in

10:09

show notes and whatnot. But yes.

10:11

But then I was.

10:12

Sort of. I

10:16

was looking at. A

10:18

post-COVID. Labor

10:20

force and looking at

10:23

why I chose to go out and essentially

10:25

become self employed.

10:28

And on that sort of freelance

10:32

project based engagements

10:35

with my clients.

10:36

Which was how long ago?

10:38

Well, that was back in 2016. Yeah.

10:41

That was a decision. I

10:44

guess, brought on by what

10:47

we wanted to do in travel and what we wanted to do in

10:49

terms of traveling and traveling with your

10:51

books and doing book tours

10:54

and like this was a thing that

10:56

we just had to put in place

10:58

before we were to do that. So we did

11:00

that. And then purely it's

11:02

like a lifestyle decision,

11:05

really. It enables us to live.

11:10

Out of Sydney. Where

11:13

the commute is not as. Because

11:15

we're not commuting every day. So it's not it's not

11:17

as big a factor. Yes,

11:20

we still travel in the city, but it's not

11:22

every day.

11:23

Yeah, well, you do. I don't. Yeah.

11:24

Yeah, I do.

11:26

Uh. And so

11:28

the lifestyle changes that's brought on.

11:31

Being self-employed have been massive

11:34

and and for the most part very, very

11:36

positive. But then COVID came along. Right?

11:39

And yes, I have heard of it with

11:41

COVID.

11:42

Everyone was working home from home anyway.

11:44

Pretty much, yeah.

11:46

And so I felt and this is going to sound

11:48

really privileged. What's

11:51

in it for me? Where's my

11:53

advantage now? Right. Do

11:55

you know what I mean? Like, and I know that sounds really

11:57

selfish, but it's. I took

11:59

the risk of going out, and there's massive

12:01

amount of risk involved in being self-employed.

12:05

You carry a lot of that risk. There's no security.

12:07

Well, the argument is there's never any

12:09

security anyway.

12:10

Yeah, but.

12:11

Like, if you get booted by a client

12:14

or that can happen, it can happen overnight. And

12:16

it did happen overnight during COVID with

12:18

multiple clients. It was like, Oh, sorry,

12:21

there's no work for you anymore. One

12:23

day there was, the next day there wasn't. So yes,

12:25

there is absolutely a huge amount of risk. There's no sick

12:28

leave. There's no holiday pay. There's no severance

12:30

pay. There's none of that. None of this is surprising,

12:32

but it is part of the risk of

12:34

being self-employed and why it

12:37

felt like such a leap for us back

12:39

in 2016, even though, yes, we were

12:41

doing it for reasons, good reasons,

12:43

reasons that were values aligned, it was

12:45

still very risky. And

12:47

you were happy to take that risk

12:49

because the payoff was flexibility.

12:52

Work from home, able to

12:54

all those travel, all that sort of stuff. And

12:57

then COVID hit and then

12:59

a majority of the workforce

13:01

was able to do what you had been doing,

13:03

essentially, which was working from home

13:05

with that flexibility, you know,

13:08

painting it in a very positive light.

13:10

Now, at the time, it was bloody hard

13:12

for everyone.

13:13

100%.

13:15

Because you were also teaching

13:17

your kids as.

13:18

Well, right?

13:18

For a lot of people. Yeah. And, you know, living

13:20

through a global pandemic and all the uncertainty that came

13:22

with that. But I remember your frustration because

13:25

you're like, now everyone

13:27

has the flexibility and the lifestyle stuff.

13:29

It's a hybrid workforce now for

13:31

the majority of white collar workers is wonderful.

13:33

Yeah, it's awesome because the benefits are massive.

13:37

Uh. So at the beginning of the year, recognizing

13:39

all that, and I was like, Well, what's the next

13:42

step? Like, what's the step that

13:44

I could take as a self-employed person

13:47

that that positions

13:49

myself in front of the curve, if you like, makes

13:51

you feel out of the workforce. Like I'm getting

13:53

like a little bit of a cheat code, like I'm getting

13:55

a a benefit that other

13:58

people aren't at the moment, you

14:00

know what I mean? Like just and

14:02

just being sort of aware of what the future

14:04

of work looks like really, and the trends.

14:08

And so reading about this four day workweek,

14:10

I'm like, giddy up. Like that sounds

14:13

that sounds great. And

14:16

so I was challenged

14:18

myself at the beginning of the year. I

14:20

spoke to you and I said, I'm going to as

14:23

of. April

14:25

trial, a four

14:27

day work week. And

14:30

you then you said quite rightly, what

14:32

does that look like for your clients and how

14:34

how do you actually how will you actually

14:36

do that? And. That's

14:41

when the I don't know, like the

14:43

rubber hit the road was like that's that's

14:45

a very hard as

14:47

a self-employed person to

14:50

to manage. Yeah because as an employed

14:52

person if you want to go down if you want to

14:54

do a four day work week, it's a one

14:57

conversation.

14:57

And a contract.

14:58

Change to the contract or.

14:59

Stuff.

15:00

With me, it's having multiple

15:03

conversations and you need to align

15:05

all those conversations. Yeah. So

15:08

that's where I'm up to. Full disclosure, That's

15:10

where I'm up to is is sort of working out.

15:14

How I have that conversations

15:16

and convince people that. Of

15:19

the research of the proof in the data

15:22

of the trials that you

15:24

will get increased productivity.

15:27

You will get the same level of service.

15:31

You get a happier Ben

15:33

McAlary? Uh,

15:37

yeah. So that's, that's where

15:39

that's sort of where I've got to.

15:41

And I've started to have those conversations.

15:44

Yeah. And what does that look like?

15:46

Um. I've

15:49

just been quite open

15:51

and honest and just saying I'm

15:53

going to be unavailable on this day from

15:55

this date. Right?

15:58

And what's the response been typically?

16:02

No problem.

16:03

Interesting.

16:05

Okay. This is only with, like, one client

16:07

so far. Okay. I've only had that conversation,

16:10

but, yeah, I've got to have it with multiples,

16:12

but, like, that's. I

16:14

was expecting.

16:17

Something different.

16:18

You're expecting pushback or.

16:19

Yeah.

16:20

Yeah. Do you think that, at least

16:22

in part, the acceptance Hard

16:25

to say when it was just one person or one one

16:27

client that.

16:30

In part, it's it's

16:32

not a crazy idea anymore.

16:35

Like the conversation publicly in

16:37

the media is that a four

16:39

day workweek has merit. Whether or not organizations

16:41

are going to adopt it is a whole other

16:43

thing. But there's merit there. And it is no

16:45

longer like the outlier

16:48

who is suggesting

16:50

this. Do you think that that's

16:52

at least part of the reason why there was no

16:54

pushback?

16:55

I think there was no pushback because I

16:57

didn't say I'm having a four day working

17:00

week. Right. Okay.

17:02

I'm just having I'm not working for you on

17:04

this day.

17:04

I'm I'm unavailable.

17:06

On this.

17:07

Day from this date. Yeah.

17:08

Okay.

17:08

So I'm not saying it's the because

17:11

I still think there's probably a lot of stigma

17:13

around it.

17:13

Do you? Yeah.

17:14

Yeah. So you operate in that

17:17

realm and don't so yeah.

17:20

I mean, I think a lot of people with this

17:22

sort of these sort of issues

17:24

initially quite reluctant to want

17:26

to be the the first in market

17:29

to do it even though the trials are.

17:31

Saying there's.

17:32

Certainly nowhere near the first in market anymore.

17:34

But yeah anymore but.

17:35

Within Australia and look there's

17:37

probably companies in Australia are already doing it. There

17:39

is.

17:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah there is.

17:42

So yeah, so I so

17:44

this is, this whole thing was based

17:46

on. My

17:50

level of not being able to disconnect

17:53

from work because

17:55

everyone has a right to disconnect from work.

17:57

Yes, some countries are actually legislating

17:59

that now.

18:00

Yeah, exactly. So,

18:02

you know, by not answering phone calls

18:04

out of hours or emails

18:06

outside of work hours. That's

18:11

crept into my. Yes,

18:13

my the way that I operate,

18:16

particularly with the kids leaving

18:18

home early before. Uh,

18:21

earlier than previous

18:23

years. They're heading off earlier. They're

18:26

both in high school now, so. There's

18:29

more time for me to be in front of my

18:31

computer. And

18:34

I recognizing this.

18:36

I'm. There's

18:38

no benefit Like there's. That's

18:41

annoyed me that I've just gone. Well I can fill that

18:43

with with work and productivity

18:45

for the sake of productivity.

18:47

Right.

18:49

Are you? Do you think you're getting through

18:51

more work because of that, or are you?

18:55

I really don't.

18:55

Know. No.

18:56

It's hard for you to track.

18:57

Yeah, I really don't know.

18:59

So that's that's interesting that the

19:02

frustration with, like, productivity

19:05

creep and. Email

19:08

creep and, you know. Availability

19:12

creep has flagged

19:14

with you because mean I've noticed

19:16

it, but I

19:18

think that that's also a quite

19:20

a common problem at the moment with

19:22

the hybrid lots more people working

19:24

from home more. There's huge

19:27

amounts of research being done and,

19:29

you know, articles being written about.

19:34

Exactly that. The boundaries

19:36

have blurred significantly

19:39

for people, you know, between

19:41

work and home and tech always

19:43

made it tricky. But the fact

19:45

that home is work for a lot

19:47

of people now. Yeah, yeah.

19:49

That's yeah.

19:50

Is making it harder

19:53

again for people to extricate

19:55

themselves mentally. So

19:57

that's interesting that that has

20:00

kind of been highlighted to you

20:02

as well. Yeah.

20:05

Let me ask you this question. Okay. Do

20:08

you think we are working

20:10

more than we did,

20:12

say, 20 to 30 years ago?

20:14

How do you mean? More like.

20:16

Hours.

20:16

Hours in a week? Do you think

20:18

we're working more as an

20:20

average?

20:23

Yes. Without like

20:25

more context than that. Like you're talking about Australia,

20:28

what kind of workers are you talking about? All that sort of stuff. But

20:30

yes, I would say that yes, we are.

20:31

In the developed world in what I call

20:34

richer nations. We

20:36

are working far less

20:39

than we did 30 years ago, which

20:41

absolutely shocks me because

20:43

I feel like. I

20:46

wasn't in the workforce 30 years ago.

20:49

No, but I.

20:51

Kind of was 20 years ago.

20:53

You definitely were 20 years ago.

20:54

But as a as a as a.

20:56

Average. The population

20:58

is working. Far less.

21:01

There's a few reasons for this. So

21:03

casualisation of the workforce,

21:06

right? More people working part

21:08

time compared to 20 or

21:10

30 years ago.

21:12

The gig economy,

21:14

gig economy.

21:15

So all these all these new sort of

21:17

labor forces.

21:18

Which are far less secure, far.

21:20

Less secure.

21:22

Um, generally pay far less,

21:26

uh.

21:27

Zero benefits. Zero like, yeah.

21:29

Like not zero, but yes, less benefits

21:31

and all that sort of stuff. So. Yeah.

21:35

To me, I was like, wow, that

21:38

that's. That's shocking. Yeah, we

21:41

are. Mental health is,

21:43

you know, it's never been.

21:46

Worse. Yeah. And

21:48

burnout is huge.

21:51

That's really interesting. So why.

21:52

Is that?

21:55

I think that being on constant,

21:57

this is just my theory. This is not based in

21:59

anything scientific.

22:02

I think that people are just constantly

22:04

on, you know, and

22:06

even if they are not working,

22:08

I know this is the case for a lot of people who work in hospitality,

22:11

for example, or health care because

22:13

of the casualisation of the workforce, they

22:16

need to be ready to say

22:18

yes to a shift tomorrow,

22:20

today, tonight, whatever, you

22:22

know, so people aren't given

22:24

the opportunity for

22:27

what was the traditional 48

22:29

hours away from work or more,

22:31

you know, so people

22:34

don't ever get that time to decompress.

22:37

And I'd say that a lot of people like information

22:39

workers and, you know, people

22:42

who even aren't in those

22:44

casualised sort

22:46

of industries are

22:48

feeling the same for different reasons because

22:50

they're constantly attached to their email. They're

22:52

getting text messages. They are

22:55

expected to answer the phone even

22:57

if it is out of work hours. So

22:59

again, people aren't getting the time to

23:01

decompress. So it feels like

23:04

we are working more, even if,

23:06

as you say, on average

23:09

it's on the average is important. On

23:11

average, people are working less.

23:14

Because 30 years ago people didn't

23:16

need a dual income to survive,

23:19

right?

23:20

Right. Yeah.

23:20

And now that's pretty

23:23

useful.

23:24

It's pretty much par for the course. Of course. Yeah.

23:26

If you're in a in a relationship and

23:29

your cost of living.

23:32

Is such that

23:34

there is virtually no way

23:36

one partner. Yeah can.

23:40

And everything you need

23:42

in order to make ends meet. And that's

23:44

even looking back, like when we grew up,

23:48

my mom was at home until I was in

23:50

primary school, so she got

23:52

a job when I was in primary school, part time job.

23:55

Even that like that. I would

23:57

have said years ago that that was stereotyped.

23:59

Like that was the typical situation. It wasn't

24:02

like even, you know, 30,

24:04

40 years ago. That wasn't necessarily the

24:07

the the typical situation, but

24:09

it was more common. Like

24:11

now, it's I think it would be

24:14

quite uncommon. I

24:16

could be wrong, but I mean, again.

24:19

Where's the census data? And I can tell you

24:21

that, yeah, I think it would be uncommon.

24:23

Yeah. So cost of living is a huge

24:25

part of it too. Huge. And then you so you've

24:28

got stress of meeting

24:30

the rising cost of living. Wages are not increasing.

24:32

Wages are decreasing on

24:34

in a in a real world sense. Um.

24:38

It's brutal. So I think

24:40

that. It

24:42

makes sense that we feel that we're working more

24:44

even if we're working less.

24:46

Now, I do need to put a caveat. There's

24:48

a huge difference between richer and

24:50

poorer nations with this. So

24:53

richer nations are working fewer

24:55

hours.

24:57

On average, on average.

24:58

Poorer nations are working far more.

25:01

Right. Okay. So, yeah,

25:03

look at like agricultural

25:07

intensive industry

25:09

within developing nations

25:11

and they're working. 24

25:14

over seven. So the average is

25:16

greater there. So I think innovation

25:19

tech has a lot to do with it, but it's not

25:21

the answer. Right? Like at the end of the day,

25:23

it's a tool. And

25:25

technology as a tool is

25:27

winning.

25:29

Yep.

25:31

Yeah, it's it's interesting,

25:34

though, if we come back to the four day workweek

25:36

for. People

25:38

like you, people like me, who,

25:41

you know, work mostly on

25:43

computers. Where knowledge workers.

25:46

There is an argument that

25:48

a four day work week will

25:50

be made more broadly

25:52

possible by. Embracing

25:57

what tech offers for efficiency

25:59

sake, whether that's AI, whether

26:01

that's, you know, just

26:04

being smarter with the way that we use technology

26:07

to reduce what is

26:09

required of us. That

26:12

sounds all well and good until you put

26:14

your corporate overlord hat on and

26:16

they're like, Oh, are you doing less work? So we won't pay

26:18

you as much? You can have a four day workweek,

26:20

but we'll pay you for days. That's not what

26:22

a four day workweek promises. A four day workweek,

26:25

as it's being discussed at the moment is

26:27

about working for four days

26:29

a week.

26:30

Same pace, same.

26:30

Benefits, same pay, same benefits. Yes.

26:33

So I think that's an important distinction to

26:35

make. We're not talking about robots taking our jobs.

26:38

And giving us less work to do because that

26:40

will ultimately just result in us. Being

26:43

paid less. That's not really the point.

26:46

Although there is some evidence

26:48

that certain parts of

26:50

the workforce would take a pay cut if.

26:53

They'd be able.

26:53

To have a full day.

26:54

Yes, but.

26:55

I don't think that's most people.

26:57

Yeah. Yeah. Um.

26:59

So anyway, come with us on this journey

27:02

as I explore the four day

27:04

workweek and what that

27:07

looks like. So I'm not

27:09

doing it now. Like, it's not hasn't

27:11

started yet. I'm in the process

27:13

of managing expectations

27:16

around it. Yeah.

27:17

Which takes me to this article on

27:20

The Guardian or the AFR actually, which I'll link

27:22

to in the show notes that

27:24

spoke to a number of.

27:28

Managers for different

27:30

organizations of different kinds

27:33

of businesses that trialed

27:35

the four day workweek. And I thought it was really interesting

27:37

because one of them was like a larger

27:39

corporate office,

27:41

you know, that you would typically think

27:43

of as well suited for a four day workweek.

27:46

So they were involved. But there was also a fish

27:48

and chip shop somewhere in the UK because

27:50

that's a an argument that

27:52

I often hear that's against the four day

27:55

workweek, which is tradespeople,

27:57

service.

27:58

And.

27:58

Anyone who works in service industry,

28:01

hospitality, health care, that sort of stuff. It's

28:03

not well suited to a four

28:05

day workweek. And absolutely

28:07

that is the case for some

28:09

industries and some work. There is no

28:13

way around that. But I still don't think that that's a good

28:15

reason for it to not be applicable

28:17

to certain industries when

28:20

possible. So it was really interesting

28:22

to see the different challenges

28:24

that those two businesses faced. So

28:27

the corporate business,

28:31

he joked and he said, like, I think

28:33

it was six months of six day weeks

28:35

in order to prepare us

28:37

for the four day

28:39

workweek. And because, you know, you

28:42

think about having to look at

28:44

everyone's job

28:46

description and what their outputs

28:48

are and, you know, what

28:51

the flow on effects of changing that. Like,

28:53

let's say they don't no one works on a

28:55

Wednesday. What does that look like for their

28:58

suppliers and for their customers and

29:00

all that sort of stuff? So there was a huge amount

29:02

of preparation in order to.

29:05

Take part in this trial. And

29:08

then the fish and chip shop like

29:10

they're seasonal, right? So they are in a coastal

29:12

tourist town. There is 3 or 4 months

29:14

of the year where it is simply not feasible

29:17

for them to work four days a week, even

29:19

if. And I'd read somewhere recently

29:22

about like somewhere in the States, maybe that was

29:24

giving hospitality

29:26

workers the option of

29:28

working their five days of eight hour shifts

29:30

or working four days of ten

29:32

hour shifts. So, you know, that

29:35

has always been something that I

29:37

was curious about as an option for hospitality.

29:40

But instead of doing that,

29:42

this fish and chip shop owner, um.

29:47

Made it known, I guess, that

29:49

during peak season, his workers,

29:51

his employees would work longer hours and

29:54

in the off season they would work 32

29:56

hours a week as opposed to a

29:58

higher workload. And then in the slow season,

30:00

they would work 24 hours a week all

30:03

for the same pay. Yeah. So there'd be

30:05

periods where they would work very full time hours

30:07

and then periods where they work part time hours

30:09

for full time pay. And that

30:11

seemed to work really well for them to the point

30:13

where they're going to continue with the the

30:16

equivalent of a four day workweek.

30:17

It's so powerful.

30:18

That it's such long

30:21

term thinking and

30:23

the the scarcity mindset

30:25

of a of an employer. And if

30:27

I put myself in the shoes of that

30:29

owner of that fish and chip shop, it would

30:31

be okay. So I'm

30:33

I'm taking on these employees

30:36

at any time they could leave. You

30:39

know what? If they're leaving in the slow season

30:41

when they're not, um, or they're just

30:44

here for the slow season. Right. Sorry.

30:46

They're just here for the slow season

30:48

and they're getting paid full pay, not

30:50

working a, you

30:52

know, full day or

30:54

full week. And and then

30:56

when it comes and when it comes busier,

30:59

they leave. Sure. Do you know what I mean?

31:01

So invested all this fear based, fee based.

31:03

And so that's that's just a

31:05

whole psyche change. Yeah.

31:07

And it's got to me it's about

31:10

becoming human centered rather than profit

31:12

centered. And I know I live

31:14

in an idealist world in my own head. I

31:16

understand that. And I'm so often

31:18

frustrated by the fact that

31:21

others don't, you know.

31:23

And so for me, I always

31:25

pass things through the lens of

31:28

people first. And

31:30

I know that that's not how the world works,

31:32

but that's what we need to do

31:34

if we want to embrace that.

31:38

Uh, the abundance based mindset

31:41

rather than the fear based mindset

31:43

that you described. But that's not

31:45

taking into account the

31:48

wellbeing of employees. So maybe someone's

31:50

like, Yeah, maybe I will come in

31:52

for the flu season and work three months at part time

31:54

and get paid full time. But at the end of those three

31:56

months, perhaps they are so

31:58

enamored with the fact that the

32:00

employer. Writes

32:02

their well-being so highly that

32:05

they've realized they've become loyal to this person.

32:07

Absolutely. You know, they've realized that actually

32:10

I'm not going to get this sense, this level

32:12

of investment in my well being

32:14

anywhere else. So I'm going to stay, you

32:16

know, and.

32:17

The value that that would have is

32:19

incredible. Yeah.

32:21

Yeah, I think it's I think it's really interesting

32:24

in case study.

32:24

It is. Yeah. Thank you. Good. Yeah.

32:27

I liked it because it wasn't the traditional

32:29

white collar example.

32:31

So what I'm going to try instead of the four day

32:33

workweek is a six month on

32:36

and then six month off.

32:38

But there are people who do that too. What

32:40

there are so people I mean, these are people

32:42

and like someone who does

32:44

the work I do could possibly do something

32:46

like that. You know, writers, creators.

32:49

Um. Creatives

32:52

could potentially do that.

32:54

Like you work intensively on a

32:56

project, a book, a movie or

32:58

whatever. And

33:01

you put everything you have into

33:03

it and then you go on sabbatical for six months.

33:05

Oh, that's amazing.

33:06

But there aren't there are.

33:07

People who do it. They weren't.

33:08

I couldn't do it. But it.

33:09

Sounds amazing.

33:10

No, you couldn't do it with the work that you do. I don't think most

33:12

actually, I.

33:12

Don't think I could even if I could,

33:14

if you know what I mean. Yeah. Okay. Like

33:17

six months being on

33:19

for six months, not having any break,

33:21

you know, just powering through. I

33:24

think I get pretty sick.

33:26

Yeah. And that. I don't know. All

33:28

I know is that I had read that certain

33:30

people do that and they seem to love it.

33:32

So, you know.

33:34

Yeah.

33:34

And I mean, what's on right is on

33:36

like 40 hours a week is on 80

33:39

hours a week is on 120 hours a week. Yeah.

33:41

Yeah. So the flip side,

33:43

though, to the four day workweek

33:46

and I think it's pretty obvious we are. Absolutely.

33:49

In the camp of yes, four day work week

33:51

for so many reasons. For people's well-being.

33:53

Well enough to trial it. Yeah.

33:55

Yes, sure. I mean.

33:59

I am anyway, because.

34:03

Anything that can lead to people

34:05

being more well, people

34:08

feeling more grounded, people having

34:10

time and space and buffer and margin

34:12

in their life to. Live

34:17

differently. I'm awful. Yeah. You

34:19

know. But also, as I said,

34:21

I know that that's an idealists. Uh,

34:24

view of the world. Nothing wrong with that.

34:27

But I understand

34:29

that, but.

34:30

So the flip side of it is. The

34:33

laziness implication. A lot

34:35

of people will imply

34:38

or assume that

34:40

there is laziness attached to this

34:42

desire to only want to work four days

34:44

a week. I disagree completely. It's people

34:46

wanting to find some measure of balance

34:48

in their life. And I

34:50

think that. If it was rolled

34:53

out widely, we would discover that in fact

34:55

people weren't being lazy. Productivity

34:57

doesn't decrease people's

35:01

happiness, people's wellbeing, people's mental

35:03

and physical health, improve their relationships,

35:05

improve communities, improve and look,

35:07

look at the flow on effect. That's

35:09

what I believe would happen. But you cannot.

35:13

Have this conversation without someone piping up

35:15

saying it's just young people being lazy. And

35:17

you.

35:17

Know what? That's the capitalist society we live

35:19

in. And I don't want to get too deep into this

35:21

this. But capitalism by definition,

35:24

is productivity being

35:26

as productive as possible and

35:28

earning. A

35:31

living based on that.

35:32

Productivity, even.

35:33

Even like my argument for that is they've

35:35

shown that productivity

35:37

increases on a four day week anyway

35:40

like this. The trial has shown that it's like 25%

35:43

increase. To me, that's not the point. But

35:45

regardless that that takes that argument

35:47

away.

35:48

It does. And that's why and that's essentially

35:50

while why it's been considered

35:52

by so many companies.

35:53

Right, because of.

35:54

The bottom line.

35:55

The productivity, not because.

35:56

People are happier or healthier.

35:58

That's a nice side effect.

35:59

Oh, God.

36:01

So depressing.

36:04

But capitalism's capitalist

36:06

theory is that. Yeah. We

36:09

need to be productive. If we're not,

36:11

that's then we're sitting

36:14

idle and that's wastage.

36:16

So that's why when we when when you sit

36:18

there and do nothing, you're subconsciously

36:20

thinking I should be doing something.

36:22

Oh, it's.

36:23

Been completely ingrained into us. 100%.

36:25

Yeah. But also, I would

36:28

I would posit that

36:30

the fear is people who

36:32

have time on their hands

36:34

have time to think, and people who

36:36

think people are people who start

36:38

to think critically about the world

36:41

we live in and perhaps we can do it differently.

36:43

And perhaps.

36:44

We.

36:44

Go, we're going.

36:45

Down a rabbit hole.

36:46

No, I'm not going to go. But but honestly, I

36:48

do believe that that is. I

36:50

don't think there's any one puppet master pulling those strings.

36:53

But I think that over time that has

36:55

become the norm, is that

36:58

people are far more likely

37:00

to buy stuff, to

37:02

buy into things, to,

37:04

you know, become a

37:07

cog in the marketing machine that

37:09

is the world if we don't have time

37:11

to stop and think. Yep. Truly.

37:14

And that's why I think that slow living can be

37:16

a genuinely world changing

37:18

idea because it gives people

37:20

the opportunity to stop and think and

37:22

it is uncomfortable. The

37:25

things that you stop and think about are

37:28

uncomfortable. But. I.

37:31

I truly believe that there is

37:33

an element to this work,

37:36

work, work, work mentality that is

37:38

about. Air

37:42

control sounds ridiculous, but it's

37:45

about maximizing

37:47

money.

37:47

Yeah, it's about money. Yeah. Yeah.

37:49

How funny. I'm just smirking because I'm thinking

37:52

about my check in and how

37:54

I'm. Now I've got a fitness tracker,

37:56

and it's all about optimization and productivity.

38:00

Is it, though, that's one side or

38:03

is it about well-being?

38:05

Oh, that's true.

38:07

There's an argument for both.

38:08

There is?

38:08

Yeah. It depends how you use it.

38:10

Yeah.

38:11

If you're like, using it to hack, like, biohacking

38:13

and and whatnot, then, you know, perhaps

38:15

that's, that's.

38:17

That's about.

38:18

You know, reaching your optimum

38:21

potential versus

38:23

well being or, you know,

38:26

um. Navigating

38:29

life in a way that creates the

38:31

least amount of stress. Yeah.

38:34

Yeah. Anyway, so that's

38:36

the four day workweek. This is going to be a recurring

38:39

topic. I'm going to. I'm

38:41

not going to spend a lot of time on it in future episodes,

38:44

but I will provide an update on what it's looking

38:46

like and how I'm managing

38:48

expectations. And yeah.

38:50

So just from you personally rather than the global. Exactly.

38:52

Exactly.

38:53

Can I ask you a question before we move on? Sure.

38:57

One of the other arguments against

39:00

the four day workweek is that

39:03

people will use

39:05

their day off to

39:08

go and get another job. And

39:10

that will in turn lead

39:13

to either poorer performance

39:15

in their main job the four day

39:17

a week job or

39:20

burnout. I

39:22

can absolutely see how people would do that, because the

39:24

cost of living crisis is very

39:27

real and brutal and people

39:29

are struggling to make ends meet. So I get that

39:31

concern.

39:32

People have got side hustles

39:34

now and a five day work rate. Yeah.

39:38

So that would just free

39:40

them up to do their side hustle on another

39:43

day.

39:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good point.

39:45

I hadn't really.

39:46

Thought about that, but.

39:46

I'd love to know what percentage of people

39:48

do have some kind of side hustle.

39:52

Yeah, that would be interesting, actually.

39:54

Yeah.

39:55

So I think. Okay, let's like, follow

39:57

that argument through though,

39:59

which is. Yes.

40:02

Let's say people move

40:04

to a four day workweek. They go and get another

40:06

job to. Boost

40:08

their bank account. Will

40:13

that lead to burnout? Probably. But people are already

40:15

burning out on five days anyway. So

40:19

what do we do as a society? Like,

40:21

how do we. Negate

40:24

that need for people to feel like

40:26

they or not just feel

40:28

like they have to to have to go and get a second

40:30

job to plug the gap. We

40:33

raise wages. We

40:36

look at things like universal basic income.

40:39

You know, like this is

40:41

where the opportunity for creativity

40:43

and leadership really comes

40:45

in. I'm not asking you

40:47

to like, give your personal thoughts on

40:50

it, but to me, it's just an interesting

40:52

offshoot of the conversation. It's

40:54

like, how human

40:56

centered can we make the economy?

40:59

And what would the. Flow

41:01

on effects of that be.

41:03

So the skeptics will will no

41:05

doubt have that argument in their back pockets.

41:08

When more organizations

41:10

move to the four day workweek. Just

41:14

as like hybrid work, the

41:16

hybrid workforce and the skeptics around

41:18

people working from home have

41:20

come out and said it's not good for collaboration

41:23

and it's not good for mental health.

41:25

And like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's always going to be people

41:27

that Sure.

41:27

Of which they.

41:28

I think that there is some merit to those arguments

41:31

based on individual people, based on

41:33

the work that they do, based on the organizations

41:35

they work for. I'm not

41:37

I'm not pooh poohing that at all. And I don't

41:40

think that there is a one size fits

41:42

all. Like just because I am a super

41:44

introverted person who. Very

41:47

happily works in my own company

41:49

doesn't mean that that's going to suit everyone,

41:52

you know. And I think that hybrid tends to

41:54

be what is working for

41:56

people like on the main. Yeah.

41:59

Now as we move into whatever comes

42:01

post lockdowns and um.

42:04

Yeah.

42:06

Sorry I interrupted you.

42:07

So the question is, honey,

42:09

what am I going to do with that one day that I

42:12

don't want?

42:12

I don't know. What are you going to do?

42:15

Um, well, I think that's another discussion.

42:17

Okay. Because.

42:19

Yeah, you don't know yet.

42:21

Well, no, I have. I

42:24

kind of do know what I'm going to be doing. Okay.

42:27

And it will be upskilling based

42:29

on the work that I

42:31

do and it becoming redundant in the next three

42:34

years.

42:34

Yeah. So this is another conversation.

42:36

This is a this is another conversation which we will have.

42:39

Yeah. But yeah,

42:41

let's do it in another episode. Okay,

42:43

let's get on to.

42:47

Hobbies?

42:48

Yes. So this part

42:50

of the conversation was sort of prompted

42:53

by an article that I read.

42:56

And The Guardian.

42:56

Maybe I'll link to it in the show notes.

42:59

About the.

43:01

Benefits of having

43:03

hobbies that we are mediocre at.

43:06

Like things that we suck at. And it was written

43:08

by someone who has.

43:09

Been surfing for

43:12

20 or 30 years and is still

43:14

genuinely terrible at it, but

43:17

loves it, loves it because

43:19

they are genuinely terrible at it.

43:21

And they had a perspective

43:23

that I had not.

43:25

Uh, really considered.

43:27

Before, which was that

43:29

if you want to, if your aim

43:31

is to get better at something, a hobby, for example,

43:34

then you open

43:37

up. The prospect

43:39

of failure. So trying to get

43:41

better means that you can fail. So

43:43

they're like, I don't want to try and get better because

43:46

this is something I enjoy as it is

43:48

just for the sheer love of it,

43:50

trying to get better, getting lessons,

43:52

whatever. Watching YouTube tutorials

43:55

like that then changes my mindset

43:57

away from one of enjoyment to one of

43:59

improvement. And I

44:01

had never considered that before. But

44:04

I think that there's definitely an element of truth to

44:06

it. The comments were so interesting because

44:08

most people had this very capitalistic

44:11

mentality of like, Why wouldn't you want to get

44:13

better at it? Whereas this person was

44:15

like, I don't because I don't want to. I

44:17

just don't want I love.

44:19

Sucking at it.

44:20

Yeah, because it is enjoyable,

44:22

because it is an exercise

44:24

in movement or mindfulness

44:26

or play or

44:28

whatever it is not about.

44:32

Getting better. What do you

44:34

think about that?

44:34

It's such a.

44:36

Look. Five years ago,

44:38

I would have been on the whole. Just

44:40

give up now.

44:41

Like, why?

44:42

If I'm not going to be good, I'm not going to do it.

44:44

Exactly.

44:44

But. I

44:47

really love embracing the beginner

44:49

mindset. Being a beginner.

44:53

In something. It's

44:56

so cool.

44:58

Okay. That is very different to how you used

45:00

to be.

45:00

Because.

45:01

You don't get those first.

45:05

Big, like baby steps again.

45:08

Like when you when you do something

45:10

new. Those those little baby

45:12

steps, they're so enjoyable because they're

45:14

so basic and they're so

45:17

they're so hard. And it's funny,

45:19

like how hard it is.

45:23

And just embracing that

45:25

beginner mindset is those and

45:28

also when you're a beginner. You

45:31

get better really, really quickly.

45:35

I think that's the opposite to the point

45:37

of the article.

45:41

But it's inevitable, right?

45:42

Like if you.

45:43

Apparently not.

45:44

Come on. If they've

45:47

been surfing for 30 years.

45:50

They they would have started by not being

45:52

able to actually stand up on the surface.

45:54

Okay, I get your point.

45:55

They now would be able to stand up on

45:57

the surfboard.

45:58

I'm assuming.

45:58

So I.

45:59

Don't.

46:00

So there's a big thing, isn't it? There's a big.

46:02

Difference between laying on a board and surfing.

46:07

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, the. Yeah.

46:10

So I guess you're right. I'm still

46:12

in that camp of. But.

46:14

And you are like, I am.

46:16

I am you and I learnt to ski.

46:18

At the same.

46:18

Time, right? We did it with no

46:21

lessons. We took a chairlift

46:23

to the top of a mountain, strapped skis to

46:25

our feet and we're like, Let's get to the bottom.

46:28

Because that's how we.

46:28

Learnt to snowboard like 20, 20

46:30

years.

46:31

Before.

46:32

It's infuriating because you're like.

46:33

Captain Competent.

46:35

And you're like, It's fine. You just lean into it.

46:37

You just use your edges. I'm like, What are you talking about?

46:39

And it took me so long to get to the

46:41

same point that you got to within the first day.

46:44

So I think that you are just someone who.

46:47

At least with physical, like hobbies,

46:50

things like that. You have that. Natural

46:53

capacity to learn

46:55

on the fly to embody

46:58

your lessons really quickly. I'm

47:00

not.

47:01

So maybe this question is for you

47:03

then, because yeah, I

47:07

took that whole article

47:10

and the whole theme and embracing

47:12

the beginner mindset because I love Yeah, I

47:14

love that feeling of learning something new

47:16

because you do make huge

47:19

strides very quickly, or I

47:21

do.

47:22

Do you then get bored.

47:24

With something like once you've.

47:26

Gotten beyond the beginner mindset and

47:28

you're at like an intermediate.

47:30

So the gains, the gains and advantages

47:32

slow down? Yeah.

47:33

Do you then.

47:34

Get bored and give up?

47:36

Well then it will come down to how much I really want to

47:38

do something right. Is,

47:41

you know, am I. Am I benefiting

47:44

from it? Is it fun?

47:46

Right, Right.

47:47

Yeah. Which kind of taps into the themes of that

47:49

article. They're doing it because they

47:51

just love it, right? Like, they just. It's

47:54

pure. Like, just. Enjoyment.

48:00

Okay. So my question for you then

48:02

is. Talk

48:06

about. Pottery

48:09

as an example of a hobby that you've

48:11

started. Later

48:14

in the next couple of years.

48:17

What's that been like?

48:18

It's been really interesting, actually. And this

48:20

is what I wanted. This is why I wanted to touch on

48:23

this topic, because I wrote about

48:25

it a couple of weeks ago and got some

48:27

really interesting responses.

48:30

So I started pottery. I

48:32

don't know. You bought me like a class pass

48:35

Class Promise 2021.

48:38

Yeah, right. Okay.

48:39

And I went for three months,

48:42

absolutely loved it and

48:45

fell in love with it.

48:46

Immediately and within.

48:49

I'm going to say 3 or 4 weeks.

48:51

I was coming.

48:52

Home.

48:52

And saying things to you.

48:54

Like.

48:54

I'd like I'd love to start my own little

48:56

pottery studio.

48:57

And start selling some. Yeah, I.

48:59

Mean, I could barely throw like, anything

49:01

at this point.

49:02

You had a store somewhere, like.

49:04

You know, like. Yeah.

49:06

And this is a pattern.

49:08

That I have followed over

49:10

and over and over. It is literally how I ended

49:12

up with an accidental jewelry label

49:15

that lasted me six years. I

49:18

enjoyed making jewelry, and

49:20

suddenly people are like.

49:21

You should, you should sell these at markets.

49:23

I'm like, Yeah, should. And

49:26

it gave a reason

49:28

or a purpose to what was

49:30

previously a hobby. And

49:33

that's where I landed with pottery as well. I'm like,

49:35

Well, if I'm going to be spending this time and money

49:37

doing this thing, it should

49:39

pay its own way. And I've since

49:42

walked that back because I

49:44

realized that I stopped enjoying

49:46

it as much when I started to think about

49:48

what it would look like

49:50

to have a creative

49:53

side hustle like that.

49:56

Um, and it's, it's

49:58

not the reason I was doing it, the reason I wanted to do

50:00

it and the reason I actually really enjoyed it is

50:02

because it is a, it's

50:04

a sensory creative experience.

50:07

And when I'm at the pottery studio.

50:09

I don't think about anything else. I

50:12

just make and it's delightful.

50:15

And even if I have.

50:16

To drag myself there.

50:19

Really don't want to go. Other stuff that

50:21

I should be doing every time

50:23

I go and sit down.

50:26

I'm grateful and I'm so glad that I showed

50:29

up. So I shared

50:31

a quote over on the tortoise

50:33

a couple of weeks ago from Tricia

50:36

Hersey, who is the

50:38

founder of the NAP Ministry. And

50:41

people had some thoughts on it.

50:43

Okay.

50:43

Yeah. So her quote is

50:45

being booked and busy is not a flex

50:47

to me. Being relaxed and

50:49

aligned and living in leisure with hobbies

50:52

you don't monetize is a

50:54

flex to me. You'll be proud

50:56

of overworking and constant labor.

50:58

It makes no sense.

51:01

And I get why people were.

51:02

Rattled by that, because it really does

51:04

challenge our.

51:06

Mentality. And the one.

51:07

That I have carried around with me for a very long time

51:10

of this needs to make

51:13

monetary sense.

51:15

So that was I

51:17

think it ruffled some feathers because and

51:20

I don't necessarily say that I agree

51:22

with that in like a black and white

51:24

sense, I think that there's going to be a

51:26

whole spectrum of.

51:28

People's experience.

51:30

Around hobbies. And sometimes

51:32

people do take up a hobby and they

51:34

realize that they could genuinely make

51:36

it a side hustle or their

51:39

work.

51:40

That's how I became a.

51:41

Writer by doing that. That's true.

51:43

You know, it was a hobby for a very, very long time

51:45

before I ever earned a cent from it. So

51:49

I have no issue with monetizing

51:51

our hobbies. But I think it's just interesting that

51:53

that is. Almost

51:56

always my go to

51:58

first and I have to walk myself

52:00

back from it.

52:02

So yeah, I think that the

52:05

idea of having.

52:06

Hobbies that are simply for enjoyment

52:08

sake.

52:10

Is something that.

52:11

I'm going to keep.

52:12

Exploring.

52:15

What are your hobbies?

52:17

My hobbies are,

52:20

I guess is fitness

52:22

or hobby? No, that's a that's a,

52:25

I guess a a category onto

52:27

itself, isn't it?

52:28

Yeah.

52:28

I mean, is a hobby something

52:31

that you do without purpose?

52:33

Like it's almost like.

52:34

Saying is meditation or.

52:36

Hobby. I don't know.

52:37

That has purpose to everything, has purpose

52:39

or if you want it to. Yeah, I mean you.

52:42

I don't have a traditional hobby, I will

52:44

say that.

52:46

So you're learning Japanese?

52:48

Yeah.

52:49

Would you classify that as a hobby?

52:50

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either.

52:54

Because I do want to be a translator.

52:59

By the time you're 80. That's

53:02

what you're up skilling for?

53:04

Exactly. Yeah.

53:05

So, okay, you learn Japanese and

53:08

there is obviously a purpose to that, which is

53:10

to be able to speak Japanese. But, you know,

53:12

are you doing it because you enjoy it for

53:14

the process or are you doing it because of

53:16

the outcome?

53:18

I'm doing it to. Improve

53:21

my mental. Physical

53:25

mental.

53:27

Power. Okay. Okay. So it's

53:29

a brain.

53:30

A brain power type. Thing

53:32

is. Yeah,

53:34

that's basically what I'm doing it. And next

53:36

time I go to Japan, I'd like to be able to

53:38

converse.

53:40

Sure. That's a cool.

53:41

Yeah, cool kind of goal.

53:43

You play golf? Would you say golf as a hobby?

53:46

It's not a sport, that's for sure.

53:48

Oh.

53:50

Well, then his chest was bought.

53:52

Yeah. So I think I have a lot

53:55

in saying I don't have traditional hobbies.

53:57

I have a lot of things that I like to do

53:59

that are either leisure, leisure

54:01

based.

54:03

You're describing hobbies.

54:05

You surf.

54:06

Okay, Surfing.

54:07

We stand up, paddle board.

54:09

You know, fitness,

54:11

CrossFit type, exercising,

54:15

um, video games.

54:18

Reading. Reading.

54:19

Yeah. Playing guitar.

54:21

Playing guitar. Yeah.

54:23

You don't have any hobbies?

54:24

Okay, but I kind

54:26

of. I

54:30

don't have like a hobby that I would hang

54:32

my head on. Of all those

54:35

things, like what am I like? What's my main

54:37

hobby? I don't think I could tell. You

54:39

know, I don't think I'd have one.

54:41

You're multi potential, right?

54:43

Yeah. I would love

54:45

to have a hobby. And I. I

54:47

envy the people that have their

54:50

one hobby that they are just. It's

54:53

almost all consuming.

54:55

But then that.

54:55

Goes like back to like.

54:56

A train. A toy

54:58

train. Yeah. Okay.

55:00

Model the Walt Disney

55:02

Neil Young type.

55:03

Yeah. Yeah.

55:04

I would never do that. That does not interest

55:06

me, but the equivalent.

55:07

Right. Okay.

55:08

When you said train, I thought of that guy who

55:11

is like, huge on TikTok

55:13

and YouTube, you know, the guy who wears the head mounted.

55:16

And he's forget his.

55:17

Name, but he's obsessed with.

55:19

He's just so joyful.

55:20

The passion. That's what I want.

55:23

I want that passion. Right.

55:24

So then going back to the article that like

55:26

led us into this part of the.

55:27

That's almost the opposite

55:29

of that. So this person, the surfer,

55:32

is like, I do it, you know, Saturday morning

55:34

and it is. It is

55:36

this window of time where I

55:38

happily suck and then I move

55:40

on with my life and it's like it's enjoyable

55:44

for what it is, but it is not all consuming.

55:47

It is not like my great passion.

55:49

Yeah, I'm not saying there's like, right or wrong. I

55:51

just think it's really interesting that.

55:53

We can.

55:54

Create space in our lives for

55:56

hobbies and they can take up

55:58

vastly different amounts of

56:01

emotional space. That's so.

56:02

True. Yeah.

56:04

Yeah. And I go through periods.

56:05

I think, where I have almost an

56:07

obsession with certain hobbies. And

56:10

then there's other ones that I just slip in and out

56:12

of because they are literally enjoyable.

56:15

And so I pop in

56:17

and I enjoy them and then I pop out. Mm.

56:24

Hobbes. Hobbes.

56:25

Man, they're.

56:26

Weird.

56:27

I would love to know people

56:30

listening. What

56:32

your hobbies are because.

56:33

People have really cool hobbies.

56:34

Oh so.

56:35

Cool. I get hobby envy.

56:38

That's interesting.

56:41

Why I surface level hobby.

56:44

But that's okay.

56:46

I don't want to be like that surfer.

56:49

Why you're having a really hard time

56:51

with that. Why?

56:54

Because I don't like it. Sucks

56:56

to suck.

56:58

I think it's enjoyable to suck.

57:00

This is me saying at the beginning of this conversation.

57:03

Being a beginner is so joyful.

57:06

I don't think you.

57:07

Believed that.

57:08

Even when you said.

57:08

It.

57:10

I'm gonna have to take that one day just to do some

57:12

self.

57:14

Self analysis.

57:16

Yeah.

57:17

Okay.

57:19

Yeah. So let us know what your hobbies are.

57:20

So when I say, let us know

57:23

that we have a new home, by the way,

57:25

on the Internet. If

57:28

you. So I'm writing on Substack. I'm

57:30

writing a weekly

57:32

newsletter called The Tortoise.

57:34

Funnily.

57:34

Enough, over on Substack. And

57:37

that's where you're going to find Shownotes

57:39

for episodes moving forward.

57:41

So there will be a link in the

57:43

app or whatever app you're listening

57:45

to this on. There'll be a link there that will take you over

57:48

to the tortoise on Substack. But it's Brooke

57:50

McAlary. Substack. Com is

57:52

the name and.

57:55

You can just search for

57:58

the episode number for each

58:00

episode of The Tortoise moving forward and you'll find

58:03

all the show notes. So obviously today's

58:05

episode one, any links that we

58:07

any papers, any articles

58:09

that we talk about will link to there?

58:12

But while you're there, let us know

58:14

what your hobbies are because Ben

58:16

needs some new ones.

58:23

Thank you. Yes.

58:26

So final segment.

58:30

I know you love the idea.

58:31

Of segments.

58:33

Is a brief check.

58:35

In. So this is where we will talk about typically

58:38

about your.

58:41

Uh.

58:42

Movements towards a four day workweek.

58:43

Okay. Yep.

58:44

So this is the regular check in part. Yeah.

58:46

Okay.

58:47

But we're not going to do that because.

58:49

We've already done that today.

58:50

And you're now going

58:52

to ask me.

58:53

About my.

58:55

My running.

58:56

Like a well oiled machine. So

58:59

one so beginning of the year,

59:01

four day work week for me. One

59:05

percenters for you. Has

59:09

the 1%. Movement

59:13

going.

59:14

Movement.

59:15

It's going you know what? It's been

59:17

a phenomenal. It's

59:20

had a phenomenal impact on.

59:24

The way I spend my time.

59:27

So I'm not going to kind of rehash

59:29

it all here. We spoke

59:31

about it a little bit on the last couple of episodes

59:34

of the Slow Home podcast. So if you haven't listened

59:36

to those, you can just go back a

59:39

couple of episodes. Same feed in

59:41

the same feed.

59:42

Same feed.

59:43

Take a listen to those. But I also

59:45

wrote quite a lengthy post

59:47

about it.

59:48

On The.

59:49

Tortoise that you can go and read.

59:51

But essentially.

59:52

It's.

59:54

Using the idea of 1%

59:56

as a tool. So either 1%

59:59

of our day being 15 minutes roughly

1:00:01

of our day, what can I do for 15

1:00:03

minutes that will be

1:00:05

values aligned that will make

1:00:07

me feel better, that will move

1:00:10

me a step closer towards, you know, a

1:00:12

goal or something that I'm working towards.

1:00:14

That's one way of using it. The other way

1:00:16

of using the 1% is what is something

1:00:19

that I can do that will improve

1:00:21

or change or grow.

1:00:24

An area of my life by 1%, you

1:00:27

know, and that can be something tiny,

1:00:29

that can be, um, you

1:00:32

know, making that small extra effort

1:00:34

in whatever area it is in life,

1:00:36

a relationship, work, creativity,

1:00:39

play health, and just

1:00:41

embracing the idea of continuous,

1:00:44

gradual, slow and steady

1:00:47

improvement.

1:00:49

So that's it in a nutshell. You can

1:00:51

hear Joey snoring behind me, and

1:00:55

it's been phenomenal. So I.

1:00:57

Every morning when I wake up.

1:00:59

I.

1:01:00

Write in a log book. It's

1:01:02

something that Austin Kleon writes about

1:01:04

and I have copied. And essentially

1:01:06

I go over the day before and I look at

1:01:08

the day before.

1:01:09

I know what he's really going for it. I

1:01:13

look at the day before.

1:01:13

And I think about what

1:01:16

1% I have

1:01:19

attempted or I have managed, you know, and

1:01:21

it might be something like.

1:01:22

Stretching in the morning.

1:01:23

To me, that's a 1% improvement in the

1:01:25

way that I feel during the day.

1:01:28

Physically, it can.

1:01:29

Be journaling, It can be taking

1:01:31

the extra time to sit with the.

1:01:33

Kids when.

1:01:33

They go to bed. It can be taking the dogs for a walk.

1:01:36

It can be literally 15 minutes

1:01:38

spent exercising. It can be 15

1:01:40

minutes spent weeding the garden. And

1:01:42

I just make a note of all of those things.

1:01:45

And two things have happened. I think

1:01:47

I'm looking for more opportunities

1:01:49

to make those tiny shifts

1:01:51

that make no.

1:01:52

Material.

1:01:53

Difference to my output, but make a huge

1:01:55

difference over the course of a week or

1:01:57

a month or a year.

1:01:58

Absolutely.

1:01:59

So I'm looking for opportunities to do it.

1:02:01

But I'm also seeing that I've

1:02:03

been doing lots of 1%.

1:02:05

Anyway anyway.

1:02:06

And that is empowering. Yeah,

1:02:08

that's going okay. I know what's important

1:02:10

to me and.

1:02:11

I'm already.

1:02:13

Living like it. That feels really.

1:02:15

Great.

1:02:16

Yeah. So I.

1:02:17

Try every.

1:02:19

Month to have a different.

1:02:20

Focus.

1:02:21

Just to see, you know, what I

1:02:23

can do with this 1%. And

1:02:25

this month I've been focusing on

1:02:29

getting back to writing my

1:02:31

middle grade kids novel.

1:02:33

And it has been unbelievable

1:02:36

the.

1:02:36

Difference that the 1% has made.

1:02:38

So for the first couple of weeks of the

1:02:40

month, I spent 15 minutes

1:02:42

after writing my log book in the morning,

1:02:45

just working through my old drafts,

1:02:47

just looking at them, making notes,

1:02:50

um, noting down anything, you

1:02:52

know, structural story stuff that

1:02:54

needs to happen. And

1:02:56

then for the second half of the month, I'm

1:02:58

now able to

1:03:01

outline. The

1:03:04

entire book is really.

1:03:06

Hard to concentrate with you snoring

1:03:08

like that.

1:03:08

Unedited.

1:03:10

Yep, very candid. This is life.

1:03:13

So, yeah, and.

1:03:14

Spending that 15 minutes a day has allowed me

1:03:16

to now sit

1:03:18

down and do more intensive

1:03:20

work of outlining. So it's more

1:03:23

like 1%, but for a week.

1:03:25

So I'll sit down for maybe two hours on a Saturday or a

1:03:27

Sunday and work on it. And

1:03:29

I'm at the point now where I've started a

1:03:31

brand new draft and have a complete

1:03:34

outline for the entire book, which I've never had

1:03:36

before.

1:03:36

Incredible. And that's all from just to the

1:03:38

1%.

1:03:39

Yeah.

1:03:39

So I

1:03:41

knew theoretically

1:03:44

that.

1:03:45

1% a day would make a difference.

1:03:47

And it adds up to way more than just

1:03:49

the effort of a singular day.

1:03:52

It becomes very quickly,

1:03:54

far greater than the sum of its parts.

1:03:57

I knew that.

1:03:57

But seeing it in a very

1:04:00

real sense has been so cool. So,

1:04:03

yes, it is going well. The

1:04:05

1% is going well. And

1:04:08

I think what I'll end up finding.

1:04:11

A need for is tilting.

1:04:14

Yeah.

1:04:15

You know, because.

1:04:15

You add add.

1:04:17

15 1% to your day and all of a sudden.

1:04:19

Your days just 15% Fuller Yeah.

1:04:21

You know. Yeah.

1:04:22

That's not what this is about. It's not about.

1:04:26

Exponential growth. It's just about

1:04:28

a slow, steady commitment to.

1:04:31

A thing.

1:04:32

And in.

1:04:33

That.

1:04:34

In that capacity. It's been

1:04:37

really genuinely powerful.

1:04:40

And.

1:04:41

It's amazing. Some may argue that the 1%

1:04:44

is basically a productivity tool.

1:04:47

And you can argue that that's fine.

1:04:48

I think it depends how what lens

1:04:50

you look at it through. But there is absolutely

1:04:53

endless research that shows that

1:04:55

deep, concerted effort

1:04:57

over short periods of time is

1:05:00

often far more productive.

1:05:03

I would believe that.

1:05:04

Then spending an eight

1:05:06

hours a day, you know, half

1:05:08

doing.

1:05:08

Things well, my.

1:05:09

Japanese lessons are

1:05:12

that's my 1% at the moment is all

1:05:14

around just doing 15 minutes a day.

1:05:16

And. Anymore

1:05:20

and you become so firstly so fatigued

1:05:22

with it. Right? And

1:05:25

because it's new information, too. So it's sort

1:05:27

of like it's pretty intensive

1:05:30

like what you're learning. But

1:05:32

I enjoy it now. Like, I

1:05:35

look forward to that 15 minutes of

1:05:37

of learning Japanese. I'm

1:05:40

using Duolingo. I know there's a number

1:05:42

of apps out there, but that's the one I'm using

1:05:44

and I'm just having a lot of fun

1:05:46

with it. Yeah. I'd previously

1:05:48

studied it at school, so I

1:05:50

came to it with quite a bit of

1:05:52

base knowledge. Yeah.

1:05:56

And just. I

1:05:59

look forward to in 12 months, seeing.

1:06:03

Where you're at with where I'm at? Absolutely.

1:06:05

Yeah.

1:06:07

And I think that would be a

1:06:09

fantastic measure of the

1:06:11

benefits of the 1% of the 1%.

1:06:13

Yeah.

1:06:14

So put a note in your diary.

1:06:17

We're coming back.

1:06:18

Yeah.

1:06:19

You know, beginning of next year to see how your

1:06:21

Japanese is.

1:06:21

Hey.

1:06:23

Very good. So

1:06:26

I think that's that's sort of it for

1:06:28

our first episode of The Tortoise. If

1:06:30

you haven't.

1:06:32

Yet subscribed, if you found your way

1:06:34

here on a podcast app. Uh,

1:06:37

make sure you hit subscribe. This

1:06:39

is the same feed as the Slow Home podcast.

1:06:42

So if you were a previous subscriber and you've

1:06:44

noticed us pop up and you're like, What the heck is this?

1:06:46

We've renamed the feed so

1:06:48

that you won't have lost access to

1:06:50

our 350 past episodes. So you can

1:06:52

go back and take a listen to those. And

1:06:55

if you haven't yet signed up to receive

1:06:58

the tortoise letters, they go out

1:07:00

every Friday at this point,

1:07:03

Australia time.

1:07:04

And you head over to Substack.

1:07:06

And add your name to

1:07:08

those. There is also an option to become a paid

1:07:11

subscriber and for that

1:07:13

you it's $5 a month or $50 a

1:07:15

year. You also get access to

1:07:18

workshops that will.

1:07:19

Run roughly every.

1:07:21

Quarter. So 3 or 4 a year. I've

1:07:23

just wrapped up the

1:07:25

first workshop, which went for three weeks and

1:07:28

it was all about values, how to

1:07:30

identify your values and

1:07:32

then how to use them to help you make decisions.

1:07:34

So if that's something that you're interested in, you can sign

1:07:36

up for $5 for the.

1:07:38

Month, get access to that straight.

1:07:40

Away. But otherwise, for the Friday

1:07:42

letters, it.

1:07:43

Is completely free. And I would love

1:07:45

you to come over there and join us. We've got a really

1:07:47

beautiful community.

1:07:48

That's that's starting to spring

1:07:51

up around our conversations.

1:07:54

We have a chat every Friday afternoon.

1:07:56

Yeah. So come and join us please. Brookman gallery.substack.com.

1:08:08

What's the collective noun for

1:08:11

a group of tortoises? Oh, I don't know.

1:08:15

That'd be funny. Call that community.

1:08:16

I think we looked at that at some point, and it

1:08:19

wasn't great. I don't know what it was.

1:08:21

We could call it a plod.

1:08:22

A plot of tortoises.

1:08:23

A plot of tortoises. Love

1:08:25

it. Just a quick

1:08:28

favor, if you like.

1:08:30

We're not sure about the discoverability

1:08:32

of the show as we've changed from Slow

1:08:35

Your Home to the tortoise.

1:08:37

What really helps with that is if you

1:08:39

leave a rating and or a

1:08:41

review on. Apple

1:08:45

Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast

1:08:47

platform. That just

1:08:49

means that we're more likely

1:08:51

to be searched and

1:08:54

people find us through those apps if you

1:08:56

if we have some current ratings

1:08:59

and reviews. So it would be great if you've

1:09:01

got the time to leave us

1:09:03

a quick rating and review, please.

1:09:07

Until next time.

1:09:09

And at this point, we're hitting monthly episodes.

1:09:12

It's part of our commitment to slow and steady

1:09:14

this year.

1:09:16

That feels doable.

1:09:17

So we will be back with you

1:09:19

the third Thursday of

1:09:21

April.

1:09:23

Until then, take

1:09:25

good care.