0:00

When you think about super successful

0:02

businesses that are selling through the

0:04

roof like Heinz or Mattel, you

0:06

think about a great product. A

0:08

cool brand and brilliant marketing. But

0:10

there's a secret. The business behind

0:12

the business making selling simple for

0:14

them and buying simple for their

0:17

customers. For millions of businesses, that

0:19

business is Shopify. Upgrade your business

0:21

and get the same checkout as

0:23

Heinz and Mattel. Sign up for

0:25

your $1 per month trial period

0:27

at shopify.com/promo. All lower case. Go

0:29

to shopify.com/promo to

0:31

upgrade your selling

0:34

today. shopify.com/promo. Wow,

0:39

what's up? I just bought and financed

0:41

a car through Karvana in minutes. You?

0:43

The person who agonized four weeks over

0:45

whether to paint your well's eggshell or

0:48

off-white bought and financed a car in

0:50

minutes? They made it easy. Transparent terms,

0:52

customizable down and monthly. Didn't even have

0:54

to do any paperwork. Wow. Mm-hmm. Hey,

0:56

have you checked up that spreadsheet? I

0:59

sent you guys sent you for

1:01

dinner options. Finance your car with

1:03

Garvana and experience total control. Financing

1:05

subject to credit approval. the last

1:08

episode in season 5, so do

1:10

stick around afterwards for some

1:12

news and updates about the

1:14

podcast. Throughout this podcast I've

1:16

talked to many different people who

1:18

are involved in the troubles.

1:20

From victims to politicians,

1:23

to soldiers, to Republicans, but

1:25

there was always a gap in

1:27

the podcast which was hearing about

1:30

the troubles from a loyalist perspective.

1:32

After some help and a bit

1:34

of effort, I should be able to get

1:37

more loyalists on the podcast who will tell

1:39

their story. And the first of

1:41

these stories will be today's conversation

1:43

with Eddie Kinner. Eddie is from the

1:45

Shank Hill in Belfast and joined the

1:48

Ulster Volunteer Force at a very young age.

1:50

He then was arrested after carrying out a

1:52

gun and bomb attack on a bar. He

1:54

spent a considerable amount of

1:56

time in prison before

1:59

coming out and then

2:01

building a life. as

2:03

an ex-paramilitary. This is

2:05

his story. a podcast

2:07

about the violence and

2:09

bloodshed that occurred in

2:11

Northern Ireland, the Republic

2:13

of Ireland and Great

2:15

Britain, as multiple sides

2:17

and organisations waged a

2:20

bloody conflict over the

2:22

status of Northern Ireland.

2:24

Let's hand it over

2:26

to Eddie. You'll also

2:28

hear me chiming in

2:30

at different points as

2:32

well. but whenever the

2:34

troubles are up at

2:36

the 16th and I

2:38

lived on the corner

2:40

of Dover Street, Strictly

2:43

Westmoreland Street, so I

2:45

was 11. I think

2:47

a crucial point to

2:49

make is this, even

2:51

before that, the nine

2:53

memories before that, it

2:55

was never a normal

2:57

society. The kind of

2:59

thing of the four

3:01

civil rights and the

3:04

proof is, if you

3:06

were on a boss,

3:08

and the bus passed

3:10

the chapel the Catholics

3:12

on a grossed themselves

3:14

and the Protestants then

3:16

they were able to

3:18

identify by who crosses

3:20

themselves and who doesn't

3:22

who was Protestant who

3:24

was Catholic and depending

3:27

on the age group

3:29

there would have been

3:31

some violence in the

3:33

picture houses at the

3:35

end of the night

3:37

they played the national

3:39

anthem of Queen and

3:41

again who ever didn't

3:43

stand up they knew

3:45

were laid the first

3:47

So that was before

3:50

the eruption of the

3:52

troubles. This was the

3:54

early 60s kind of

3:56

you're saying is it?

3:58

What be I? Okay

4:01

and like do you do

4:03

you think like I guess

4:06

you know when you tell

4:08

the story of the troubles

4:10

you always kind of say

4:12

that there was you know

4:14

Northern Ireland was like a

4:16

what was this like a

4:18

two-tier society whatever did you

4:20

see that or feel that

4:22

or was it more like

4:24

and you just knew that

4:26

the Catholics were kind of

4:28

they were the enemy kind

4:30

of or as you're growing

4:32

up as the old person

4:35

there you were certainly conditioned

4:37

that they were over the

4:39

on the main estate the

4:41

civil rights protests they're seen

4:43

as an attempt to bring

4:45

about a united island and

4:47

unionist, or pretty much conditioned

4:49

by unionist politicians to to

4:51

oppose civil rights, particularly in

4:53

Paisley, he organized the opposition

4:55

release to the civil rights

4:57

marches and there were some

4:59

middle class Protestant students that

5:01

were involved with the civil

5:03

rights, but it was with

5:06

that on the elite. seen

5:08

as niceness. They didn't manage

5:10

the and taste this that

5:12

vampaged partisan synapse and it

5:14

and the Australian Unionist representatives

5:16

certainly worked up tensions within

5:18

the Unionist community opposed their

5:20

civil rights and the tension

5:22

before the trouble disrupted was

5:24

you know you could taste

5:26

it you can feel it

5:28

and the urges. It was

5:30

as if it wouldn't take

5:32

much for all the spark

5:35

off. Effectively, what happened was

5:37

now, it was 13th of

5:39

August, and 16th at the

5:41

bottom of Conway Street, there

5:43

was a car showing that

5:45

the falls old ones, petrol

5:47

bombed, and burnt it out.

5:49

So the 14th there was

5:51

a Habarnian triad, it was

5:53

going down the falls and

5:55

down the devastated devastate. All

5:57

the man, because of the

5:59

costume rooms, being attacked. Most

6:01

of them in a shankle

6:03

had congregated at Conway Street,

6:06

anticipating trouble there. The parade

6:08

when it got to Dover

6:10

Street tried to contend Dover

6:12

Street and there was a

6:14

handful of women and bee

6:16

specials that prevented them from

6:18

coming down and just all

6:20

hell broke loose from there.

6:22

Bombay Street was a result

6:24

of the tensions that was

6:26

there. Was that the same

6:28

days the burning of Bombay

6:30

Street or was that a

6:32

beast? Yeah, when the 15th,

6:35

the Ronald A. 15th, 15th,

6:37

August. Well, that's what I

6:39

understand, that's the day, kind

6:41

of the lines were a

6:43

bit more established, say, where

6:45

Catholic families who lived in

6:47

Protestant areas were kind of

6:49

burned out, or our left

6:51

and deliberately burnt their homes,

6:53

or, you know, it was

6:55

the setting of the lines

6:57

in a way. I mean

6:59

I can remember standing at

7:01

the corner of Dover Street

7:03

watching tracer bullets coming down

7:06

Dover Street from an ice

7:08

stone stand of the falls.

7:10

I knew we were convinced

7:12

that that was the IRA,

7:14

they would be coming to

7:16

get us. I later learned

7:18

actually in long case that

7:20

The tracer bullets were coming

7:22

from the B specials, shortened

7:24

armored cars, they were shooting

7:26

above people's heads, the trend

7:28

dispersed the crowd. I think

7:30

that's how the young lad

7:32

was killed in Divas Flats,

7:35

because that's... Unintentioned, yeah, it

7:37

was unintentional, was actually devil.

7:39

Herby Roy was the first

7:41

one shot dead. One more

7:43

time to name, sorry? Herby

7:45

Roy. And then were

7:47

you you were so you're

7:50

what like 12 13 around

7:52

this time? Are you going

7:54

to these protests with your

7:56

dad? Or were you guys

7:59

doing it? No, I was

8:01

11 the next the next

8:03

day I was 15, 16

8:06

year olds and making petrol

8:08

bombs from out of cocktails

8:10

for the next nice rat.

8:12

And then the army came

8:15

in and the army marched

8:17

up Dover Street, the stay

8:19

helmets and fixed planets and

8:22

they were behaving more like

8:24

an invasionary force. They seen

8:26

the state upon the street

8:29

and they were pretty hostile

8:31

to the Protestant community. So,

8:33

I mean, that's the eruption

8:35

of it. It was pretty

8:38

much a bar of kids

8:40

went up to have interface

8:42

regular rats. I mean, as

8:45

a teenager, one of our

8:47

forms of entertainment. would be

8:49

the, there was a pub

8:51

practically in every corner of

8:54

Shaggyll now, and we would

8:56

have pulled up in the

8:58

pub door and shoot it,

9:01

quick to tell you they're

9:03

coming up Percy Street and

9:05

you get a lot of

9:08

drunks waiting out of the

9:10

bar, you do it in

9:12

the lane of bars and

9:14

you get the drunks coming

9:17

down Percy Street. Bang, you

9:19

had a ride. That was

9:21

our entertainment, this teenage kids.

9:25

When asked if Eddie came

9:27

from a loyalist family, he

9:29

went on to explain. October

9:31

1916, there was a gun

9:33

battle that was a place

9:36

in the Shackle between the

9:38

army and loyalists, and the

9:40

constable arbuckle was shot dead.

9:42

There was two streets that

9:44

were blocked off. Melvin Street

9:47

was one on. Four of

9:49

my uncles were arrested. Four

9:51

of my uncles were arrested.

9:53

and charged. Eddie then began

9:55

to explain what would eventually

9:58

lead him into UVF, the

10:00

factively the case. Eddie then

10:02

began to explain what would

10:04

eventually lead him into the

10:06

world of paramilitaryism. It began

10:08

with fighting after football matches

10:11

and then teenagers in the

10:13

area would form into Tartan

10:15

gangs. Tartan refers to the

10:17

pattern which the gang would

10:19

wear. Nowadays, most people would

10:22

associate Tartan with a Scottish

10:24

kilt, but it was different

10:26

then. Northern Irish historian Gareth

10:28

Mulvena has written a fascinating

10:30

book about the Northern Irish

10:33

Tartan gangs. So do look

10:35

him up if you want

10:37

to learn more. Eddie references

10:39

Garrett in the next segment.

10:41

And you want to the

10:44

Linfi matches. And those groups

10:46

from the street corners were

10:48

the bottom together for the

10:50

infamages before him to shankle

10:52

young tartan. We knocked about

10:55

in Agnes Street, so we

10:57

effectively call ourselves the Agnesteri.

10:59

Tartan. Okay, and you address

11:01

a certain ways, if you

11:03

wear Tartan, is this... Tartan

11:05

scarf. Tartan scarf, okay. That

11:08

was effectively it. I mean,

11:10

that's the shirt royal red

11:12

tartan with Shankle Tartan. which

11:14

still cut away tartan. And

11:16

they were also nice now,

11:19

so that tartan gangs in

11:21

eulog in the falls. There

11:23

have been crisis, there have

11:25

been crisis. Garith has been

11:27

trying to get information on

11:30

them and they're reluctant and

11:32

hesitant. Admit their association with

11:34

them. Well sorry you see

11:36

I know very little about

11:38

this so like does the

11:41

tartan represent the team or

11:43

is the color like would

11:45

the nationalist tartan gangs and

11:47

the Unionist tartan gangs be

11:49

different colors? or the same

11:52

colors or... No, that I

11:54

had different colors. Okay, and

11:56

the tartan represents the football

11:58

team, is it? No. The

12:00

tartan was just, it represented,

12:03

the shankle young tartan, the

12:05

red tartan. That was made

12:07

up from different areas. Shankle

12:09

historically, there would have been

12:11

the homar, the neck, the

12:13

black pod, different areas within

12:16

the shankle. Were the tartans

12:18

carrying out crimes, or was

12:20

it just more about the

12:22

gang of people that you,

12:24

you hung out with? Pretty.

12:27

Gangs that would have been

12:29

responding to any events or

12:31

you could go down into

12:33

Smithfield market, looking for Catholics.

12:35

And just to get into

12:38

fight with. Yeah, pretty much.

12:40

I would have been mainly

12:42

all people your own age.

12:44

And did your parents mind?

12:46

Were they happy that you

12:49

were in the parenting? Well,

12:51

no. Would have been oblivious

12:53

to it. Yeah, I need

12:55

to do all the episode

12:57

on the Tartan gangs. They

13:00

sound really interesting. I didn't

13:02

even know there was those

13:04

nationalist Tartans. That's very interesting.

13:06

Well, Garith has struggled to

13:08

get them to admit the

13:11

anti-association. He's got some people

13:13

admitting to some things, but

13:15

most of them, then I

13:17

haven't dismissed it. So go

13:19

on, why would they deny

13:21

it? They don't want because

13:24

Tartans is associated with the

13:26

crown, I guess, is it

13:28

or was? No, I don't

13:30

think so. Just think that

13:32

if you ask a Republican,

13:35

they will try to convince

13:37

you that they were politically

13:39

motivated and they were politicised

13:41

free experience or troubles. Whereas

13:43

for me, I reacted to

13:46

what was taking place in

13:48

the ground. I got politicised

13:50

in a long case. I

13:52

wasn't really politically political war.

13:54

Yeah, so you're saying the

13:57

nationalists argue that it was

13:59

always political motivations, but reality

14:01

could have just been. react

14:03

into what was taking place

14:05

it was all absolve me

14:08

both says reacted with their

14:10

emotions not logically you know

14:12

so was there so hi

14:14

on when the Tartans are

14:16

we talking like um would

14:19

that be like 71 72

14:21

or 70 71 I mean

14:23

there's quite a few bombs

14:25

it's set off on the

14:27

shangle by a professional array.

14:29

I was 13 in 1871

14:32

when they blew up on

14:34

moral showrooms killing four people,

14:36

two babies, and a prom.

14:38

And that, I just lived

14:40

around the corner from it.

14:43

I was on the chain

14:45

dig in the rubble. And

14:47

at that point, I had

14:49

made my man up. If

14:51

I can do us here,

14:54

I can do them. It

14:56

made me determined to be able

14:59

to get myself into a position

15:01

where I could respond and can't.

15:04

The youth wing of the UVF

15:06

was known as the Young Citizen

15:08

Volunteers and Eddie explains how he

15:11

joined them at the age of

15:13

14. It was approached in a

15:16

disco and asked if he was

15:18

prepared to join a organization. They

15:20

wouldn't tell me the name of

15:23

the organization until I committed myself

15:25

to join him. I don't know

15:27

how to say that, I stipulated

15:30

that as long as it's not

15:32

the UDA, it's a transparent way

15:35

to be the junior among the

15:37

UVS. So why didn't you want

15:39

to join the UDA? Why didn't

15:42

that one as you went? Because

15:44

they were involved predominantly in street

15:47

protests. They weren't actively responding to

15:49

the IRA. They weren't responding in

15:51

kind. Effectively. EDF had explosive expertise.

15:54

So, you know, people in responding,

15:56

you know, and if I could

15:59

go in and involve our organisation.

16:01

So, you say, you get a

16:03

post to a disco, you say

16:06

to the guy, yeah, sure, sign

16:08

me up, and then what happens?

16:10

He told me a time and

16:13

place to go for a meeting.

16:15

I went along with him, a

16:18

first meeting, a group of, a

16:20

group of YCVs, a 15 to

16:22

20. Some of them I knew,

16:25

some of them I knew, some

16:27

of them were, hadn't yet. They

16:30

had already been members that I

16:32

wasn't a war of. And they

16:34

asked for volunteers for operations. I

16:37

hadn't volunteered. The guy who couldn't

16:39

visit me to join him asked

16:41

me after a meeting. I said,

16:44

well, I didn't volunteer and I'd

16:46

say I expect to be trained.

16:49

So consequently, I got some training.

16:51

Was that in like in guns

16:53

or was that in like assembling

16:56

bombs or was it you know?

16:58

It would have been weapons and

17:01

it would have been with weapons

17:03

guns. And where do you see

17:05

because I guess with the IRA

17:08

a lot of the times they

17:10

just go across the border and

17:12

they do their like gun training

17:15

over and gunning all or somewhere

17:17

so where do you do it

17:20

if you're a remote firearms for

17:22

you need taken to practice? You

17:24

know gradually enter introduced you know

17:27

you'd have been starting off by...

17:29

Gellern intelligence, taking registration numbers of

17:32

cars, coming in and out of

17:34

national stories, pausing information on, and

17:36

then you would have gotten involved

17:39

with robberies, a crucial thing that

17:41

we did was take personal protection

17:43

weapons from RUC reservists, you do

17:46

your arm in, they had a

17:48

personal protection weapons. And we would

17:51

have won't have won't, won't have

17:53

had this as we would have

17:55

on ourselves. It was, uh, we

17:58

never considered the risk of getting

18:00

to one of our houges armed

18:03

and they're not going to know

18:05

with your, that provisional air anymore

18:07

and come on to shoot them.

18:10

They would basically be, they'd shoot

18:12

first if they, because obviously you're

18:14

not going to identify yourself. Yeah.

18:17

Yeah. I mean, we had a,

18:19

a guy who was an insurance

18:22

salesman that he wouldn't go out

18:24

and get any information. He would

18:26

have been. talking to the people

18:29

and their firearm holders and it

18:31

got out of them out where

18:34

exactly the firearm was and so

18:36

we were well tuned into how

18:38

to proceed whenever you get into

18:41

the building. Make sure you keep

18:43

them away, make sure you keep

18:45

them away from the location you've

18:48

been informed as to where the

18:50

weapons stored. Eddie then talked about

18:53

signing up to plant a bomb

18:55

in Conway's bar in Belfast. which

18:57

would lead to the death of

19:00

UVF bomber Jordi Brown and Catholic

19:02

civilian Marie Doyle. Oh, factively, come

19:05

1975, it evolved here to plant

19:07

a bomb, the bomb, the bomb

19:09

exploded prematurely, killing one of my

19:12

comrades and killing a woman in

19:14

the bar. And if you don't

19:16

mind me, if we go back

19:19

a little bit, Eddie, sorry, just

19:21

say... You volunteered, do you have

19:24

any part in assembling the bomb

19:26

or anything or no? They give

19:28

it to you and they say,

19:31

drop this there. Well, the game,

19:33

you might then collect that at

19:36

a specific location. And those days

19:38

there'd have been, yeah, I suppose

19:40

it wouldn't have been much different,

19:43

but the bomb would have been

19:45

probably prepared to go on different

19:47

locations and cause it been security

19:50

forces present. Operation Vermont called off.

19:52

So I suspect the but the

19:55

fusion upon the, the total loss

19:57

was 40 seconds on the fuse

19:59

and we could cut the fuse

20:02

in half, which you said to

20:04

20 seconds, we never touched it,

20:07

but at the trail the full

20:09

capacity of the bond didn't explode

20:11

and that there was something wrong

20:14

with the fuse. I suspect that

20:16

they moved about that often. There

20:18

was a kink, I must have

20:21

come into a fuse that caused

20:23

a jump. So you, sorry, what

20:26

was the name of the guy

20:28

you were with? The guy that

20:30

was killed? Yeah. Jory brown. Jory

20:33

brown. So you and Jory, um,

20:35

approach, what was it, Conway's bar?

20:38

You drop it at the doorstep,

20:40

you light the fuse, and then

20:42

you expected 40 seconds, but then

20:45

it just, it just went off

20:47

straight away. A neighbor of security

20:49

guards were to turn up. The

20:52

tram interfered then they were to

20:54

shoot them. But they were told

20:57

to be shooting at a bar.

20:59

I let a fissile bomb. The

21:01

door, the part opened. And I

21:04

started blasting. And I started blasting.

21:06

And the time that it takes

21:09

the fire off six lines, because

21:11

I had just stepped back. I

21:13

said, let's go on the bomb

21:16

charge. There's much fancy the urn

21:18

bunch of security fence. I still

21:20

had the later in the hand

21:23

and down beside me was short

21:25

beep around with his foot blew

21:28

off chest and head injuries and

21:30

it was a train and held

21:32

down beside him and dropped a

21:35

later down the train. But you

21:37

were quite injured as well weren't

21:40

you your face I think was

21:42

quite burnt yet? Yeah. So what

21:44

happened? Does the police arrive? Does

21:47

an ambulance arrive? Did people come

21:49

out? Does a crowd try and

21:51

attack you or anything or you

21:54

know? Well I think I was

21:56

one of the innocent. Escorted may

21:59

help me on the ambulance. What

22:01

he's experience was different. He had,

22:03

he had drawn. His back was

22:06

unfair. And the crowd ran off

22:08

of him, caught him, beating him.

22:11

The army had came on the

22:13

scene. He sounded over the army.

22:15

The army beat him a bit.

22:18

And then he sounded over the

22:20

police. They slumped him about and

22:22

talking to, they sailed before taking

22:25

him to hospital. Eddie was taken

22:27

to the hospital before ending up

22:30

in prison, where he came face

22:32

to face with Gusty Spence, who

22:34

was also in the prison. I've

22:37

done an episode on Spence in

22:39

the past, but he would be

22:42

considered a senior figure in the

22:44

UVF and was beloved by many

22:46

UVF loyalists. Gusty knew Eddie's family

22:49

quite well and attended Eddie's grandfather's

22:51

funeral. Gusty warned Eddie not to

22:53

speak to the police when questioned.

26:40

I can say to my new Samsung

26:42

Galaxy S-25 Ultra, I find a keto-friendly

26:44

restaurant nearby and text it to Beth

26:46

and Steve. And it does without me

26:48

lifting a finger. So I can get

26:50

in more squats anywhere I can. One,

26:52

two, three. Will that be cash or

26:54

credit? Credit, four. Galaxy S-25 Ultra.

26:56

The AI companion that does the heavy

26:58

lifting so you can do you.

27:01

Get yours at samsung.com.com. Compatible, select

27:03

A Google Gemini account, results may

27:06

very based on input check responses

27:08

for responses for accuracy. I'm

27:55

ready for my life to

27:57

change. ABC Sunday, American Idol

27:59

Return. Give it your

28:02

all good luck. Come on

28:04

the golden ticket. Let's hear

28:06

it. This is a man's

28:08

word. I've never seen anything

28:10

like it. And a new

28:13

chapter begins. Carry Underwood joins

28:15

Lionel Ritchie, Luke Bryan, and

28:17

Ryan Seaprest on American Idol.

28:19

Season premiere Sunday 8-7 Central

28:21

on ABC and stream on

28:23

Hulu. Eddie

28:27

believes that he had his political

28:30

awakening while in prison. So I

28:32

asked him to explain this a

28:34

little bit. Effectively, um, because they

28:36

never asked me it, but he

28:38

had a question that he asked

28:40

just about most prisoners whenever they

28:42

came to the gate alone case.

28:44

Why are you here? And, um,

28:47

he didn't ask me, because he

28:49

knew about a family background. He

28:51

knew, precisely. my complete pedigree so

28:53

it didn't well or asked me

28:55

the question and effectively most people

28:57

were thinking he was asking what

28:59

they were in for and responded

29:01

that because it was caught and

29:04

effectively know if this question there's

29:06

no way you hear but what

29:08

motivated you to do what you

29:10

did and it forced quite a

29:12

few in the company 21 we

29:14

were in. It forced quite a

29:16

lot of us to question our

29:18

circumstances or scenarios. In my case,

29:21

I had already become that questioning

29:23

process anyway. The day that it

29:25

was sentenced, there was an old

29:27

uproar, whenever we were sentenced, the

29:29

whole crowd of men, how'd been

29:31

in YZVs, had been in the

29:33

gallery, and I started up on

29:35

and cheering, and the screws up

29:38

and the screws up and the

29:40

screws up on and the screws

29:42

up and the screws up up

29:44

and the screws up and the

29:46

screws up up up up and

29:48

the screws up screws up. get

29:50

us down the stairs and then

29:53

to halt and sail. At that

29:55

point I was looking around every

29:57

every that was abusing me was

29:59

carrying the British crown. It's their

30:01

question that at that stage I

30:03

was prepared to ask openly but

30:05

I recognise there's something that rate.

30:07

There's something that rate that in

30:10

here trying to refrain that link

30:12

being abused by it. That process

30:14

was there so never gusty encouraged

30:16

it in the long case in

30:18

company 21. We were encouraged to

30:20

the bait and discuss. different directions,

30:22

different options, and how things, we

30:24

think things should be in a

30:27

prison camp, cooperating with our enemy,

30:29

to improve our conditions. If we

30:31

could do that there, why can

30:33

we not do the same way

30:35

it said? That, to me, was

30:37

the genesis of the peace process.

30:39

That camp council, because they had

30:41

pulled together all in different factions.

30:44

That's for the rich live. these

30:46

process. Well what was the what

30:48

was the funny where they come

30:50

across this maybe it was on

30:52

the blanket by Ricky Arall and

30:54

I'm sure you know but what

30:56

did he say there was one

30:58

they caught I think the loyalists

31:01

caught a Republican prisoner digging his

31:03

way out of a cell and

31:05

but he'd accidentally dug into the

31:07

loyalist part and they said no

31:09

no no no you're going the

31:11

wrong way so they said they

31:13

didn't like attack him they just

31:15

said no no like you're like

31:18

if you're on escape people to

31:20

go the other direction. I don't

31:22

think he escaped. There was a

31:24

lot to escape, so this wasn't

31:26

one of them. While in prison,

31:28

Eddie passed his GCSE exams and

31:30

was offered a chance at enrolling

31:32

in Open University, which is a

31:35

university you can do in the

31:37

prison. He was reticent at first,

31:39

but once he realized that it

31:41

would be an extra expense for

31:43

the prison, he decided to go

31:45

for it. Eventually, Eddie went on

31:47

to receive a license of release

31:49

from prison. I asked how long

31:52

his sentence was in total. I

31:55

would classify most 13 off

31:58

years for 10 years. Because

32:00

the last nine months I was

32:03

on the streets, they have a

32:05

working out scheme. I'm going to

32:07

write something about it

32:09

as well, the work on

32:11

an age scheme where the

32:13

first three months you get

32:15

parole and try to seek

32:17

employment with those five parolees

32:20

as you get. The next three

32:22

months you go out to work,

32:24

come back to jail at night,

32:26

get home of the weekends.

32:29

The next six months sometimes gets extended

32:31

than 10 months. You get out to

32:33

work, stay at home, but you come

32:36

back to the jail every week to

32:38

get a parole form saying. And did

32:40

you have a family at this stage

32:42

or are you going back to your

32:45

parents' house or you know, what sort

32:47

of? Back to the parent's house.

32:49

Upon his release, I asked him,

32:51

did he rejoin the UVF or

32:53

had his priorities changed? UVF certainly

32:55

don't want you back in the ranks

32:57

in the ranks. because

33:00

you're an unknown entity

33:02

so therefore you're a

33:04

danger so then for you they

33:06

just left because you're

33:09

an indeterminate sound

33:11

prisoner your list could

33:13

be taken off yet anything

33:16

so they didn't want to

33:18

endanger that so the left

33:20

ease during the basis what I

33:22

did was there was a

33:24

community center with a

33:27

gym boxing club in it. and

33:29

fitness was a big thing and as

33:31

well as education. So I went into

33:33

the boxing club. Bobby Story's

33:36

brother, Jerry Story, came into

33:38

compounds to teach us, train us,

33:40

as boxing coaches. Jared, during the

33:42

troubles? Yeah. Bobby Story was a

33:45

well-known member of the provisional IRA,

33:47

so it sounded unusual for his

33:49

brother to arrive into a gym

33:51

in a loyalist area, but in

33:53

this case, boxing was the priority

33:56

for the men, not politics.

33:59

Eddie He enjoyed his time at

34:01

the club, which was often looking for

34:03

government funding, and he used his experience

34:05

applying for grants and funding while in

34:08

prison to advise the boxing club on

34:10

how to get more funding. He intended

34:12

to stay on with the club on

34:14

a management level, but there was a

34:16

government legislation which said that any community

34:19

group which had paramilitaries working on their

34:21

management committees would not receive any funding.

34:23

So he continued to give them advice,

34:25

but not in an official capacity. Though

34:29

there were a number of

34:32

government programs as well as

34:34

programs on the Shinkel for

34:36

ex-par militaries to find jobs,

34:39

Eddie found it quite difficult.

34:41

He eventually found a job

34:43

with a company who make

34:46

diesel generators. At the end

34:48

of me up for a

34:50

job interview. When I get

34:53

up, the job interview I

34:55

was haunted, an application in

34:58

form, and I look through

35:00

that, and there's a part

35:02

in it about a Vienna

35:05

Con convictions. So that's through

35:07

a dilemma. I declare a

35:09

conviction. If I don't declare

35:12

it, I'm not concerned, I'm

35:14

vulnerable, I can get rid

35:16

of me at the slightest

35:19

that I win. If I

35:21

do declare a conviction, I'm

35:23

here for an interview now,

35:26

I so see what I

35:28

say. So I declare a

35:30

conviction on the interview. They

35:33

quiz me about it and

35:35

ask. The race concerns on

35:38

our part of that I

35:40

may be disruptive in the

35:42

workforce and I reassure them

35:45

that the only way they'll

35:47

know is if they give

35:49

me an opportunity and they

35:52

give me the opportunity to.

35:54

I ended up working on

35:56

their computer systems for about,

35:59

well, about 1891. Yeah, so

36:01

just... a good few years

36:03

anyway to get you into

36:06

kind of just meaningful employment

36:08

I think yet. Yep, I

36:10

mean it was that was

36:13

me and I Eddie ended

36:15

up becoming a part of

36:17

us with knowledge and the

36:20

development software that managed their

36:22

drone, their cod drones. Eddie

36:25

ended up becoming a part

36:27

of the political party known

36:29

as the Progressive Unionist Party,

36:32

aka the Pup. And I

36:34

asked him why he decided

36:36

to step into politics and

36:39

why he didn't join the

36:41

Uup or the Uup. the

36:43

two largest unionist parties in

36:46

Northern Ireland. After the, um,

36:48

um, Friselles Bowman, the Shackle,

36:50

Blum, Smith, called a meeting

36:53

of 15 to 20, acts,

36:55

you've yet brought home prisoners

36:57

that were engaged in different

37:00

areas of... the meeting in

37:02

the Uyghur Center present at

37:04

the meeting was David Armin.

37:07

I had a, I went

37:09

along the meeting, assuming Plum

37:12

was going to establish a

37:14

working class, uh, therefore an

37:16

alternative to, um, also a

37:19

unison in the DUP. And

37:21

like, were the, uup in

37:23

the dupee seen as to,

37:26

uh, what, middle class or

37:28

something, or what's the kind

37:30

of big difference, I guess?

37:33

The UUP were notoriously middle

37:35

class, the DUP were, that

37:37

stage were predominantly dominated by

37:40

the three Presbyterian church. You

37:42

know, so their emphasis was

37:44

on the religion rather than

37:47

on the real politics. So

37:49

I had assumed that that

37:52

was plumb's intention to, or

37:54

on a left wing, going

37:56

develop a left wing group

37:59

with us. politicians. And that

38:01

I hadn't considered to be

38:03

But whenever Davy was present,

38:06

Davy had said, look, his

38:08

role, likes UF read home

38:10

prisoners. If he's, if he's

38:13

joined the PUP and give

38:15

him voice, you may be

38:17

only the influence of UDF,

38:20

the ceasefire. And that was

38:22

your goal? It was, yeah,

38:24

trying. One of the objectives

38:27

of joining the PUP would

38:29

have been the influence of

38:31

the influence of the UF.

38:34

along the peace process. We

38:36

then moved on to the

38:39

peace process in Northern Ireland.

38:41

Eddie explained that by the

38:43

early 90s many prisoners who

38:46

had been given indeterminate sentences

38:48

were being released and Eddie

38:50

believes that the release of

38:53

those prisoners sowed the seeds

38:55

for peaceful discourse. Again I

38:57

hold my roots, the roots

39:00

of the peace process around

39:02

the Lancash and the camp

39:04

council and that common out.

39:07

and people of the experience

39:09

of that had come on

39:11

out knew how to cooperate

39:14

and I mean the Quaker

39:16

asking also about the difficulties

39:18

that we had reintegrate them

39:21

back in the community. As

39:23

we'd be be be be

39:26

prepared to meet with Republicans

39:28

to try and work to

39:30

gather to try and obtain

39:33

funding for setting up centers

39:35

for reintegrating the prisoners coming

39:37

out. Centers would be moneyed

39:40

by their own people, by

39:42

the ones that had the

39:44

experience. So we had met,

39:47

we had agreed that we

39:49

would meet with them and

39:51

from... Maybe one, a peace

39:54

process really started. We

39:56

were and contact as

39:58

a HUD regular meetings.

40:00

And during those meetings,

40:03

Tony Catney would have

40:05

known of the Republican

40:07

representatives and Billy Hodgeson,

40:09

he reported back the

40:11

discussions of the meetings

40:13

with the UDF, Tony

40:15

reported his back to

40:17

provosts. And they acted

40:19

like liaison, legal liaison,

40:21

between those two organizations,

40:23

getting statements, getting statements.

40:25

interpreted in the way

40:27

they're intended. And behind

40:29

the same form of

40:32

communication, that was taking

40:34

place that nobody would

40:36

hear about. As the

40:38

peace talks were underway,

40:40

Eddie was a member

40:42

of the Pup, and

40:44

his job was to

40:46

travel around Northern Ireland

40:48

and talk with those

40:50

who were dead set

40:52

against the negotiations from

40:54

going through. member of

40:56

the Progressive Unionist Party

40:58

at that time. I

41:01

would have been, there

41:03

would have been meetings

41:05

held across the country

41:07

to try and interpret

41:09

events as they were

41:11

happening and the PUP

41:13

and the UVF would

41:15

have went across the

41:17

country trying to deal

41:19

with concerns and fears

41:21

that were being raised

41:23

by the anti-agratives, the

41:25

co-seaters even. In

41:29

the wake of the

41:32

Good Friday Agreement, Eddie

41:34

believes that there are

41:36

some serious holes, especially

41:38

when it comes to

41:41

what's known as the

41:43

civic forum. Well, I

41:45

mean, you can constantly

41:47

hear people haping up

41:50

at the Good Ferry

41:52

Agreement has failed. It

41:54

was a force. Probably,

41:57

you probably will. to

41:59

get the DUP on

42:01

board, it was renegotiated

42:03

in Hillsborough, given their

42:06

experience of it, when

42:08

realistically, as far as

42:10

Aincan's concern, the huge

42:12

failure agreement has not

42:15

ever been implemented. In

42:17

order to get the

42:19

DUP on board, it

42:22

was renegotiated in Hillsborough.

42:24

They did away with

42:26

the civic forum. They

42:29

reduced the number of MLS.

42:32

There's quite a few things

42:34

that haven't been implemented and

42:37

they pretty much divided it

42:39

along South Korean lanes. Oh

42:41

and another crucial point that

42:44

Evie Ermine had made and

42:46

it tends to get forgotten

42:49

about is Tony Blair had

42:51

stated that he was facilitate

42:54

the politicisation and translation of

42:56

Republicans and the police could

42:59

deal with loyalists. Well, they

43:01

weren't going to just facilitate

43:04

the translation of loyalists into

43:06

politics and community development. The

43:09

police could do the loyalists.

43:11

The emphasis was on the

43:13

loyalists would become gangs. That's

43:16

pretty much the mentality and

43:18

the view. You know, the

43:21

whole perspective out there is

43:23

that what we did in

43:26

President was wed left and

43:28

were born? Well yeah that's

43:31

I'm gonna I'm gonna quote

43:33

you in the first email

43:36

you sent back to me

43:38

that uh let's see you

43:40

you want to challenge the

43:43

Neanderthal iron pumping porn addict

43:45

perception of loyalists so you

43:48

you think that most people

43:50

around the world are most

43:53

people are biased and think

43:55

loyalists are all just a

43:58

bunch of feck and I

44:00

don't know yeah you believe

44:03

the perception is is completely

44:05

wrong. The perception is of

44:07

Johnny at their tape. And

44:10

do you think Republican-X Republican

44:12

prisoners are being done in

44:15

loyalist communities, by-house loyalist prisoners?

44:17

You don't tell them, invade

44:20

it. And anything constructive? You

44:22

just say I'm getting, hey,

44:25

I'm getting condemned. And do

44:27

you think Republican-X Republican prisoners

44:30

are, then they're treated differently?

44:32

Yeah. Why is that? Why

44:35

is that? They have, they've

44:37

been successful politically for start

44:39

us, they've wiped out their

44:42

opposition in the SDLP, established

44:44

unionist, loyalist power unionist politicians,

44:47

failed, threatened and determined by

44:49

articulate loyalists and don't want

44:52

to see them development so

44:54

we're helped back our own

44:57

representatives. I'll give you

44:59

an example of a bit

45:01

of experience before the agreement

45:03

was reached. We would be

45:05

getting invited to all around

45:07

different places to put forward

45:10

our political policies and what

45:12

went. So myself, Gary McMegel,

45:14

the EP, and Willie Ross

45:16

from the Ulster Unionist Party.

45:18

We'd been invited to go

45:20

to a guild hall in

45:22

Darry to put across Unionist

45:25

positions and views. A group

45:27

of teenagers, not sure whether

45:29

we're mixed or legislator, all

45:31

from one session, I don't

45:33

know, but the DUP never

45:35

went in, just wouldn't take

45:37

part in it. But I

45:39

had detected the teenagers getting

45:42

bored and I started to

45:44

raise the emphasis, and I

45:46

started to raise the emphasis

45:48

on the emphasis on the

45:50

emphasis. the importance of education

45:52

and that picked up a

45:54

real degree that the better

45:57

interested but what made it

45:59

even more interesting was Willie

46:01

Ross's position and he is

46:03

opposed to he was opposed

46:05

to a disadvantaged working-class people

46:07

gaining third-level education. He associated

46:09

disadvantaged and working-class people obtaining

46:11

education with the civil rights

46:14

education education with the civil

46:16

rights and education in the

46:18

civil rights in And that's

46:20

what he used as his

46:22

example, is that what happens

46:24

whenever you educate those, he

46:26

shouldn't be educated. So that

46:29

mentality, that was the mentality

46:31

of the Ulster Unionist Party.

46:33

And that mentality still exists

46:35

out there. So you think

46:37

right now the Unionist politician's

46:39

worst enemy is themselves? Don't

46:41

beady, I think. is making

46:43

all the right noises by

46:46

Huffhill's doing in his body

46:48

now. And when he was,

46:50

when he was later, he

46:52

was realizing that you need

46:54

to be a pay to

46:56

everybody, not just one section

46:58

of our community. And need

47:01

to be seen to be

47:03

working for everybody. And do

47:05

you feel the DUP just

47:07

never did that? No. But

47:09

the DUP are trying to

47:11

do you to think now?

47:13

But I think they're trying

47:15

to do it now to

47:18

some degree. I think they're

47:20

learning. I asked Eddie how

47:22

he felt about the British

47:24

government and if he felt

47:26

that they prioritize Northern Irish

47:28

Unionists. Oh, and say we're

47:30

a dynamic back. I think

47:33

the DUP are responsible for

47:35

the border issue. If they

47:37

had a, I can't remember,

47:39

is a reason, a, a,

47:41

a, a, a, a, a,

47:43

a, a, a, a, a

47:45

reason, a, a, a, a,

47:47

a, a, a, a, a,

47:50

a, a, a, a, a,

47:52

a, a, a, a, a,

47:54

a, a, a, a, a,

47:56

a, a fair amount of

47:58

support at Harrow or barris.

48:00

they had a bit of

48:02

power yet. The DUP had

48:05

a huge, just before Brexit

48:07

or something, or before the

48:09

public, had a huge red

48:11

power yet. Yeah. And they

48:13

swallowed Boris Johnson's place, right

48:15

behind him, and he totally

48:17

backstopped him. So that's then

48:19

indicating of the contempt that

48:22

the Unionists should treat it

48:24

with by the British government.

48:27

Eddie went on to explain

48:29

that many unionists had a

48:31

deep mistrust of Sinn Féin.

48:33

I think Unionists haven't adopted

48:35

sufficiently to outmaneuver Sinn Féin.

48:37

Sinn Féin's position is that

48:39

this is the failed state.

48:42

So they're not going to

48:44

help to make it work.

48:46

All they're doing is trying

48:48

to create a situation where

48:50

the Unionists pull it down

48:52

on our saying we've tried

48:54

ways people. can't work. They

48:56

want to do, the sinners

48:58

want to do it, but

49:00

it has to go down

49:02

at the hands of unionists.

49:05

So unionists need to be

49:07

prepared to watch out for

49:09

the trial. And what the

49:11

unionists want to do then

49:13

hold up the state or

49:15

reaffirm their role with Great

49:17

Britain or working states, you

49:19

know? There would be some

49:21

unionists that would advocate being

49:23

rude from Westminster. Eddie

49:26

made an interesting point regarding

49:28

the Civic Forum, which was

49:30

not going to change anything.

49:32

Really, they need to, they

49:34

need to, they need to,

49:37

develop a strategy to enter

49:39

like genuine fan and want

49:41

them storm out to work.

49:43

Eddie made an interesting point

49:45

regarding the Civic Forum, which

49:48

was meant to be set

49:50

up after the Good Friday

49:52

Agreement. The intentions behind

49:54

it, because it had been

49:56

scrapped. This is one of

49:59

the terms of the Good

50:01

Friday Agreement that didn't. Yeah.

50:03

Okay. So yeah, go on,

50:05

look at you. It was

50:07

initially, it wasn't actually established,

50:09

but whenever the Sinn Fian

50:11

and the U.T. carved up

50:13

a day, and Hillsborough, the

50:15

good for the agreement pretty

50:17

much totally rewritten. So it's

50:19

no point in saying, you

50:21

know, what has been implemented

50:23

now was not the good

50:25

for the agreement. And the

50:27

civic forum was like made

50:29

up from community representatives. and

50:31

a number of politicians, but

50:33

it was configured in such

50:35

a way that see whenever

50:37

any difficult policies were being

50:39

recommended and storm out. They

50:41

had to go to the

50:43

civic forum for them to

50:45

be able to say, well,

50:47

there's no way you're going

50:49

to sell at the oilist

50:51

community. He after developed that,

50:53

in a way that the

50:55

civic forum, go back to

50:58

our communities and say, this

51:00

is why this is intended.

51:02

and get it into a

51:04

format that both communities can

51:06

accept. To me it's a

51:08

crucial element that I was

51:10

involved in the negotiations that

51:12

negotiated the civic forum so

51:14

whenever it was scrapped it

51:16

was like that elected representatives

51:18

are making the decisions and

51:20

that's it. That's heinous winners

51:22

and losers rather than this

51:24

is something we all need.

51:26

We all need. As

51:29

collusion plays such a part

51:31

in the troubles, I put

51:33

the question to Eddie. In

51:35

his paramilitary life, did he

51:37

ever see British soldiers or

51:39

intelligence forces, colluding with UVF

51:42

power militaries? The audio quality

51:44

of his response wasn't great,

51:46

but he basically said that

51:48

he thinks it's all made

51:50

up. I then asked him

51:52

about the Glennan gang, and

51:54

he believes that it's all

51:56

hype, and that the accusations

51:58

made by John Weir is

52:01

a thing of fantasy. I

52:03

think a piano gang and

52:05

for involved. There was a

52:07

guy who is currently writing

52:09

a book about the UVF

52:11

and he said extensive access

52:13

to quite a number of

52:15

UVF people and he had

52:17

that question posed to him

52:20

and he just totally blows

52:22

it out of the water.

52:24

He's able to quote contradictions.

52:26

I'll be approved. The final

52:28

question I put to Eddie

52:30

was to ask him what

52:32

he wanted to see for

52:34

Northern Ireland over the next

52:36

10 years. I'd like to

52:39

see people working to gather

52:41

any improvement. That brings us

52:43

to the end of this

52:45

interview with Eddie Kinner. I

52:47

want to thank him for

52:49

coming on and telling us

52:51

his story. This also brings

52:53

us to the end of

52:55

season 5 off the podcast.

52:59

So what is the future of the

53:01

Troubles podcast? I still can't believe that

53:03

after 80 or so episodes, space keeps

53:05

opening up for me to make more

53:07

and carry out interviews like today's one

53:09

with Eddie. As it stands, I still

53:11

have a multitude of interviews that I'm

53:13

working on getting out. Probably a little

53:15

bit too slowly. I've won about Norway,

53:17

one on the East Tyrone Brigade of

53:19

the IRA, one about understanding loyalism from

53:21

a political perspective. And the most recent

53:24

one I carried one I carried one

53:26

I carried one on the most recent

53:28

one I carried one I carried one

53:30

I carried one I carried one I

53:32

carried out. which saw a PSNI officer

53:34

shot in the stomach by dissident Republicans.

53:36

There are so many stories to tell

53:38

and each one leads into about five

53:40

more. The future is still bright for

53:42

this podcast. There are still plenty more

53:44

episodes in the tank and the only

53:46

hard part is to get me to

53:48

sit down and actually write the episodes.

53:50

But do watch this space because over

53:52

the next month or two I'm partnering

53:54

up with the Northern Irish Company visual

53:56

antics and we're going to be launching

53:58

some really nice Troubles podcast apparel. So

54:00

t-shirts, jumpers, or sweaters. for my Mirica

54:02

listeners. Caps and beanies. So do keep

54:04

an eye out for those. I'm also

54:07

still slowly working away on a project

54:09

about the Middle East, and after months

54:11

of meandering, I finally put bent paper

54:13

on it. And it seems like the

54:15

best place to start the podcast is

54:17

the Sykes Pico line. If anybody wants

54:19

to come on board and help write

54:21

it, shoot me a message, I could

54:23

certainly use some accountability. I'm still kicking

54:25

around the idea of doing another live

54:27

show in Dublin too. If I got

54:29

the guest right. Last year's one was

54:31

great crack and it was really cool

54:33

to finally meet listeners of the podcast

54:35

in person. I'll also probably be launching

54:37

a Troubles Walking Tour around Dublin at

54:39

some stage this year. As always if

54:41

you want to come on the podcast

54:43

and tell your story or even suggest

54:45

an interview please do let me know

54:48

but please stop suggesting Jerry Adams because

54:50

I've got two requests to his camp

54:52

and I don't think you'll become another

54:54

podcast any time soon. I'll

54:56

be taking a couple of months off

54:58

to prepare for season 6, and I'll

55:00

also be jumping into the touring season.

55:03

My main job is as a private

55:05

driver guide around Ireland, where I give

55:07

multi-day tours of groups up to six

55:09

people who are usually from the USA.

55:11

It's a hard job, but I love

55:13

it, and much of this podcast was

55:15

written or edited in a random pub

55:17

or B&B around Ireland when I was

55:20

finished driving for the day. On that

55:22

note, if you are looking for a

55:24

luxury private tour of Ireland, that's also

55:26

something I can do. So feel free

55:28

to message me at Troubles podcast@gmail.com. And

55:30

if you've gotten something out of this

55:32

podcast and want to support it, I'll

55:34

still be active over on Patreon during

55:37

the off-season. Right now you can sign

55:39

up and you will have access to

55:41

over 50 videos where I talk about

55:43

episodes as well as news in Northern

55:45

Ireland. I also have a couple of

55:47

patron exclusive episodes specifically about music of

55:49

The Troubles over there. I'll probably be

55:51

doing another book club in the off-season,

55:54

so definitely is well worth checking checking

55:56

out. If you want to support this

55:58

podcast in a different way, you can

56:00

always leave. a review wherever you leave

56:02

reviews or even throw a story up

56:04

on your socials and give it a

56:06

tag. Every bit helps me grow this

56:09

into one it has become. Lastly,

56:11

after all of that, I want

56:13

to thank you for listening and

56:15

sticking with the podcast all these

56:17

years. This podcast is probably one

56:19

of the things in my life

56:21

that I'm most proud of and I

56:24

have you the listener to thank for

56:26

that. So enough waffle. That's it for

56:28

me. Thanks. and see you next time.