0:06

Hi, it's Erica. I'm happy to

0:08

say that right now, we're working on season three

0:10

of The Turning. We think you'll love it.

0:12

It's another look into an insular community

0:15

and we talk with people who are rarely heard from.

0:18

In the meantime, we have something special for you.

0:20

I want to tell you about a new book. It's

0:23

called The Swans of Harlem. Five

0:25

Black Ballerinas, fifty years of sisterhood

0:27

and their reclamation of a groundbreaking history.

0:30

In the book, writer Karen Valbi records

0:32

the largely forgotten stories of five

0:35

black ballerinas who changed the art form.

0:37

Their stories are surprising and vivid and

0:39

poignant and totally worth your time if

0:42

you enjoyed our most recent season of The Turning.

0:45

So I'm going to turn it over to Karen for two episodes

0:47

in sort of a mini series for interviews

0:49

with two dancers. At the heart of her book, The Swans

0:52

of Harlem Today,

0:54

Karen talks to former prima ballerina Lydia

0:56

Abarka.

1:02

Long before Misty Copeland became a ballet

1:05

sensation, there was Lydia Ebarka.

1:08

Lydia was the first black prima

1:10

ballerina, the first black

1:12

ballerina in a company to appear

1:15

on the cover of Dance magazine and

1:17

the first black woman to dance Swan

1:19

Lake. She became the face

1:22

of Dance Theater of Haarlem alongside

1:24

Arthur Mitchell, her whole life

1:26

enduring a complicated relationship with

1:28

dance. Despite appearing

1:30

in The Whiz and in Bob Vossey's Dancing

1:33

on Broadway, she would be forgotten

1:35

by history. Nobody

1:38

deserves a third act like her. Hi

1:40

Lydia, Hi, Karen Lydia.

1:44

I want to begin with you telling

1:46

me about where you grew up.

1:49

I grew up in Harlem on on twenty

1:51

fifth Street, right off Broadway,

1:54

in the Grant Housing projects

1:57

with my six siblings, five sisters,

2:00

one brother, and just

2:03

had a really great childhood.

2:05

We didn't want for anything, of

2:08

course, we didn't have a lot, but

2:10

we had what we needed and we had

2:12

our parents, loving parents. My

2:15

mom was just

2:18

amazing. I mean, with so many kids,

2:20

she could find programs that we could participate

2:22

in. We all went to summer camp, sleep away

2:25

Christmas parties. My dad was

2:28

a very hard working Puerto Rican man

2:30

and he didn't speak

2:32

Spanish at home. That's my only regret.

2:35

You know, my mom knew Spanish, but

2:38

once he got into the house and married

2:40

and he just wanted to speak English,

2:42

so we missed out on that opportunity.

2:45

But he was hard working, two jobs,

2:48

strict, so he

2:50

was a good preparation for Arthur Mitchell.

2:54

Some kids just come

2:57

out bound for the spotlight.

3:00

If you were one of those kids that just

3:02

knew you wanted to be a star from

3:04

a very young age, can you share

3:07

what being a star meant to you.

3:11

I grew up with Motown, the

3:14

Jackson Five, the Supremes, the

3:16

Temptations, Ginger Rogers

3:19

and Fred Asteer. They were

3:21

stars. That's kind

3:23

of what I aspired to. But

3:25

my two loves were reading and

3:27

dancing. So if I wasn't

3:29

in a book, if music came

3:31

on, I was just strolling around the house.

3:34

I just loved music and

3:37

I just love to move. That

3:40

was my life.

3:41

Can you tell us about

3:44

that first time you actually performed.

3:48

My first performance was in fourth

3:51

grade. I went to Catholic school.

3:53

The nun who was my teacher choreographed

3:56

Walts of the Flowers. I had

3:59

never heard music like that. I

4:01

loved it, and I don't know whatever the choreography

4:04

was. That was my first time learning choreography.

4:07

I must have been like a nut up there on stage

4:09

because I was in heaven.

4:12

And after the performance, she told my mother,

4:14

you need to get her formal training. My

4:17

mom and I are looking at each other like what

4:19

does that mean? But Julliard

4:22

was right down the street on Broadway.

4:24

There used to be one hund twenty third and Claremont,

4:27

which is walking distance, and

4:29

she was able too get me an audition. The

4:32

audition was this pianist

4:35

in this room with chandeliers and mirrors,

4:37

and he started playing and the love

4:40

of music just took over. I had no

4:44

fear and I did my big

4:46

finale, which was a split. Nobody

4:50

in my family could do a split. And

4:54

the next thing I

4:56

know, I got a full scholarship.

4:58

So I went every Saturday. I

5:01

my first class. Yuck.

5:03

I was told to go over to the wall and hold

5:06

onto this wooden thing on the wall and

5:08

bend my knees. Okay, when

5:10

are we going to dance? I

5:13

did that for four years. Every Saturday.

5:16

I did plias and releve's and

5:18

advanced point shoes. That was

5:21

fun after the first

5:23

few painful lessons. But

5:26

there wasn't any dancing. It

5:28

was technique and it was. It

5:32

was not what I saw on TV.

5:36

I had never seen a.

5:37

Ballet in all of that

5:39

time.

5:40

You never know, unless

5:43

you want to count Funny Girl with Barbara

5:45

Streisan. You know, she made fun

5:47

of Swan Lake the

5:49

ballet. I did it because something

5:52

inside of me knew that it was correct.

5:57

But after six years you just kind

5:59

of get like, well, I'm not having

6:01

fun with ballet. I don't get it.

6:04

During these pivotal training

6:07

years, are

6:09

you looking up to any ballerinas?

6:13

Are you being told

6:15

you could be a ballerina?

6:18

No? No, that's

6:20

the disconnect. You know, you go

6:23

on your toes. I was doing that, So am

6:25

I a ballerina? You know, nobody

6:27

said, okay, this is the company, come

6:30

watch a rehearsal. You know, if you

6:32

went by the door and they were doing something, usually

6:34

you were told, you know, shoot away, you know, don't

6:37

stand there. So they

6:40

probably assumed that I knew

6:42

that I knew what I was working towards.

6:45

I did not.

6:47

At what point, as a teenager

6:50

do you decide I'm not doing

6:52

this anymore. I'm not going to spend my weekends

6:55

at the bar. I have

6:57

dreams outside of this studio and the studio

6:59

isn't getting me closer to them.

7:01

I quit the last two years of high school

7:04

that was my junior and senior year, and

7:06

just concentrated on trying to go to college.

7:09

My parents were really excited about me

7:11

doing that. I got a partial scholarship

7:14

to Fordham University. But

7:16

that summer I was working at

7:18

a bank to save up some money

7:20

towards the tuition. And

7:23

one of my sisters was studying violin at

7:25

the Harlem school Yards and she says, Lydia,

7:28

there's this black guy there and he's

7:30

doing something with ballet. You know. I'm

7:32

saying to myself, well, I never had a black ballet

7:35

teacher. Maybe he's going to make this

7:37

really more interesting relatable.

7:41

Help me please. Six

7:43

years of training, I needed to

7:45

know was there something that I

7:47

was missing? Obviously, So

7:49

when I went it wasn't for classes.

7:52

He was starting a company. He wanted

7:54

to see my feet. I knew

7:56

I had nice feet. I told

7:58

him I had training, I had been on point,

8:00

I had stopped dancing two years ago. And

8:03

he said he'd pay me one hundred and fifty dollars

8:05

if I would quit my job at the bank and

8:07

come be in his company.

8:10

And again I said, Okay, ballet company.

8:12

I guess we're going to do Swan Lake. I don't know, but

8:14

I was so excited. He was so dynamic.

8:17

So I quit the bank and oh

8:19

my goodness, oh

8:22

wow. Yeah.

8:25

Had you heard of Arthur Mitchell before?

8:27

Nope?

8:28

So you put your leotard

8:31

back on, you get yourself

8:33

down to this church basement where

8:36

he's hosting these auditions. What

8:40

was it like to walk into a room

8:42

with other classically trained

8:44

black dancers in it? Had

8:46

you ever conceived of a world like

8:49

this before?

8:50

Absolutely not. And

8:52

it didn't matter that it wasn't with the chandeliers

8:55

and the glass mirrors everywhere.

8:57

There was just such a feeling of camaraderie.

9:02

Hearing the others talk about how

9:04

they had tried to get into these companies

9:06

and were rejected because of their skin

9:09

color. It was a total

9:12

awakening for me. And

9:15

just meeting other dancers

9:18

who loved ballet. You

9:20

know what was I missing? What was

9:22

it about the ballet that you loved? But working

9:25

with Arthur showed me it

9:27

was a wonderful world. Arthur

9:30

Mitchell took me to my first

9:32

ballet performance, and that was at New York

9:34

City Ballet, which I had never

9:36

heard of them either. Wow. And

9:39

he was so dynamic

9:42

on stage. He was

9:44

doing a Midsummer Night's Dream I'll never forget,

9:46

which is you know, he's like a little I

9:48

don't want to say troublemaker. I'm not really sure

9:51

the story right now, but at one

9:53

point he realized he's made a mistake

9:56

and he just kind of dropped his arms and his

9:58

facade and was so street

10:01

and it was lovable, and I said, oh

10:03

my god, ballet doesn't have to be this crazy,

10:06

fiery stuff. And

10:09

I got to see the rest of the company

10:11

do ballets. I saw what a ballerina

10:13

does a lead ballerina,

10:17

Oh, unbelievable.

10:20

So at this point your whole

10:22

sense of what ballet can

10:25

be has completely changed

10:27

from those narrow studios

10:30

Saturday mornings. Yes, does

10:33

it start feeling, especially with the

10:37

zeal mister Mitchell was bringing

10:39

to the mission all these years

10:41

of ballet. Maybe ballet is

10:43

going to make me a star.

10:46

It was an avenue because

10:48

I really I thought maybe dancing

10:50

wasn't it. But

10:52

I guess all the stars and the planets were

10:55

aligned, and it just started to

10:57

make sense. And I was good at

10:59

it, and for

11:01

him, I was a clean slate. I had

11:03

no preconceived ideas of what I should

11:06

be doing or how I should be acting. He

11:08

had Clay with me and

11:11

he was molding me, and I had

11:13

to learn how to be

11:15

a principal dancer. It

11:17

was exciting. It was something I'd

11:19

come home talk to my

11:22

sisters and they're looking at me like, what was

11:24

an arabesque? You know? And

11:26

the choreography was was I

11:29

can't say fun at all, but

11:31

it was challenging and

11:34

exciting and wow.

11:38

At what point do you

11:40

realize, Wow,

11:42

mister Mitchell, his focus

11:45

is on the whole company. He is making this,

11:48

you know, a united force that's

11:50

going to shock the world. At

11:52

what point, though, do you realize I

11:55

think I might be his star

11:57

here.

12:00

I'll be honest. I was so focused

12:03

on doing what he said on

12:06

the technique, on

12:08

the presence on stage. I

12:11

know I was getting the leads and almost you

12:14

know, all the balancing ballets anyway,

12:17

but I really felt that I deserved

12:19

that, you know. And I'll be

12:21

honest. I have five sisters, and

12:24

being around women, you're

12:27

very conscious of the possibility

12:29

of jealousy. So whatever

12:32

I was doing, it was obviously

12:34

because Arthur had me doing it. And

12:37

I was not going to go around saying

12:39

that I'm the one. I

12:42

spent my time and energy proving

12:45

that I deserved it.

12:49

What was it like when mister

12:52

Mitchell started saying, we're

12:54

going to be going around town. We

12:56

need to be meeting the muckety

12:59

MUCKs for fun raising and you're going

13:01

to be my plus one.

13:03

You're this girl from the Grand

13:06

Houses, You're still a teenager,

13:08

and suddenly he's taking

13:11

you all around town. Can

13:13

you tell us about some of

13:15

those nights out with him?

13:17

That was so fun? Gave me

13:19

a chance to dress up. I

13:22

love dressing up. I didn't

13:24

have any money to buy like really expensive things,

13:26

but I knew how to look pretty. And

13:29

he was so proud of me. You know, this is

13:32

my ballerina, and I

13:34

knew it was important. Money

13:37

was important. He needed

13:39

that money. This was his dream, this was

13:41

my dream, This was all of our dreams.

13:44

And it was just wonderful watching him talk,

13:47

you know. And it didn't matter what question they asked

13:49

him, he would always be able to turn the conversation

13:51

around to and yes, we

13:54

need money to do this, And I say, oh, look

13:56

at that. This

13:58

fundraising tact were incredible.

14:01

I mean, I was happy just watching

14:04

him. I had nothing to contribute to that conversation.

14:08

And then oh, yes, thank you, you know telling

14:10

me how nice I dance. Oh thank you

14:12

so much to know how

14:14

am I doing? Arthur, I

14:16

didn't want to mess up the fundraising.

14:20

You once told me there was one

14:22

cocktail party that sat poorly

14:24

with you. Oh yeah, turned

14:26

you off on being Arthur

14:30

Mitchell's plus one. Can you tell me

14:32

about the evening?

14:33

Yeah, I don't even remember whose

14:35

party it was, but they put some music

14:38

on and they

14:40

wanted me and Arthur to dance, and

14:45

I just, I'll be honest,

14:48

I felt like a little organ grinder

14:50

monkey. You know, let's see you dance, and

14:53

that kind of dancing had nothing to do with

14:56

what we were doing. We were ballet,

14:59

you know, go down to the corner and watch somebody

15:01

dance like that. I that's not what I do.

15:04

I do it at my kind of parties

15:06

or you know, but not when we're trying to raise

15:08

money. So it Yeah,

15:11

it didn't sit well with me. I really

15:14

just went through the motions, and

15:16

of course Arthur was just you know, Arthur

15:19

and doing his thing. But

15:22

that's the first time I really felt like, if

15:25

you want to see us perform, buy

15:28

a ticket and come to the City Center

15:30

and watch watch us do our thing.

15:33

But this, I don't know. Maybe I took

15:35

it wrong, but I

15:37

didn't like it, And I think that's probably

15:40

around the time that I stopped going

15:42

with him, or him not inviting

15:44

me, it was fine with me.

15:45

Did you feel often at

15:48

these cocktail parties

15:50

and fundraising events would

15:52

you and Arthur be the only two black people

15:54

in the room?

15:55

Yeah? Yeah.

15:58

Did you ever get a sense that a

16:01

request like that, that

16:03

a room like that,

16:05

that the burden of hustling

16:07

for money like that was

16:10

hard on Arthur too?

16:13

Oh my god, I know it was. I

16:16

know it was to pull us out as

16:18

if you know, this is our special treat

16:20

for everybody, let's see them.

16:23

Yeah, at

16:26

the end of one of your evenings out. I

16:29

know this story is hard for

16:31

you to talk about because you tried to bury

16:33

it from the moment after it happened. Arthur

16:36

escorted you back into your

16:39

apartment building and in the bright lobby

16:42

right outside of the elevator, he

16:45

surprised you. Can you share

16:48

what happened?

16:49

What was that about? All

16:51

right? It was just one of those fun nights. It must

16:54

have been one of the plays that I did enjoy,

16:56

and he kissed me on my lips,

16:59

and whoa,

17:02

but it wasn't It wasn't passionate.

17:05

I'm pretty sure I kind of backed up a little

17:08

bit, like what what. But

17:12

to my recollection, I

17:14

take it as him saying thank

17:17

you. I didn't take

17:19

it that I love you. None

17:22

of that. I really to

17:25

me, it would have been the same as if

17:27

he gave me a really good hug. I

17:31

don't want to make more out of it. It's

17:33

just that it confused me a little bit because

17:37

we heard stories from him about

17:39

how balancing, you know, went out with all

17:41

his ballering as his principles

17:43

and then married them and then went

17:46

on to the next thing. I

17:48

had too much respect

17:50

for the man. What we were

17:52

doing was too important, and

17:55

I was not about to even

17:57

entertain the thought of that kind of relationship.

18:02

He was my boss, and

18:05

you all never spoke of it again.

18:09

You know.

18:11

I have had conversations with people

18:13

from the company who said, oh,

18:17

he shot his shot. He

18:19

tried and it was rebuffed,

18:21

and he sort of gracefully

18:24

moved on. You

18:27

say it was like a good

18:29

hug, But then shortly

18:31

after that evening you do

18:33

sort of tumble in to

18:36

a fast relationship with another dancer.

18:39

In hindsight, you wonder if you were

18:43

putting some visible distance

18:45

between you and mister Mitchell. Can

18:47

you say why you think it might have been important

18:50

for you to align with somebody else?

18:52

You know, I'll be honest, I didn't think of it that way

18:55

at the time, but Karen,

18:58

when you started interviewing us for the book

19:00

and we started talking about it, I

19:03

was like, wait a minute, maybe

19:06

maybe there's something to that thought that subconsciously

19:10

I was making sure

19:12

that everyone knew I

19:15

didn't want that. I

19:17

didn't want that doubt. She's

19:19

just you know, none of that, please,

19:22

Oh my god, no.

19:23

None of that.

19:24

What innuendo, that innuendo

19:27

that I was being treated specially

19:29

because of favors or something like that.

19:32

And no, no, no, no no. I

19:34

was working too hard. This was too important.

19:37

He had totally convinced me we were world

19:40

ambassadors and pioneers and all

19:42

that, and so I guess,

19:45

looking back, and you forcing

19:47

me to look back at that during the interviews

19:49

for the book, I really

19:53

started thinking about how maybe others

19:56

might have been looking at our relationship,

19:59

and it was important to me to just let

20:01

them know. I'm out here with you, guys. I'm

20:03

doing the same thing you are.

20:06

Talk to me about the

20:08

rocket ship that was Dance Theater

20:11

of Harlem. Suddenly, in

20:14

record time you all have exploded

20:17

onto the scene.

20:20

When did you feel like he's

20:23

done it? We are listen

20:26

to these audiences go

20:28

nuts for us. When did it start

20:30

feeling like success?

20:35

I think it's when we started doing our New York

20:37

seasons because up to then we

20:39

had done a lot of traveling by bus,

20:42

ugh getting

20:45

up in the morning demonstrations like at eight o'clock

20:47

in the morning we had just been on a bus for ten hours

20:50

or something. We were pretty

20:52

much dancing for people that looked like us,

20:55

and so it was kind of expected. But

20:58

when we got to City sent you know,

21:01

with the live orchestra and the curtain going

21:03

up and then the applause

21:05

afterwards, That's that's when

21:07

it was validated for me. Yeah.

21:11

Yeah, Are you starting to feel

21:14

like I made it? I've made

21:16

my dreams come true? Was

21:19

life offstage becoming

21:21

more glamorous? Are you rolling

21:25

in money?

21:27

Oh heck no

21:31

no. And you know,

21:33

but back then in Haarlem you could get

21:35

a really nice apartment for three point fifty

21:37

a month. You know, I had one apartment,

21:39

had four bedrooms, a little kitchen,

21:42

maid's room off the kitchen with its own bathroom.

21:45

I mean, they just don't have that anymore. But

21:48

I could never ever afford

21:51

a place by myself ever, And

21:55

so that was okay. I've got plenty

21:57

of sisters that took turns rooming

22:00

with me. But the money never

22:02

changed. I mean, the money at one fifty

22:05

went up to two fifty, you know, but

22:09

I don't even know how I was able to buy nice

22:11

clothes, you know, to make

22:13

sure that we were presentable. But

22:18

you know, at one point, I was like, okay,

22:21

when when

22:24

does this start kind of paying off, so

22:27

that you know, my parents can

22:29

get out of the projects or something that I could

22:31

help somebody, just help

22:33

my one of my sisters, or brought

22:35

my brother go to college. It

22:38

wasn't happening. And I know that

22:40

any money that we got, any extra money,

22:43

went to the company. It was

22:45

too important for the company to survive,

22:48

not me to have more money.

22:51

That sounds hard to know

22:54

that the mission of Dance Theater

22:57

of Harlem is so vital, and

22:59

so how

23:03

do you balance your own personal

23:06

ambition and

23:08

needs for yourself. Did you feel like

23:10

there was room for you to

23:12

hold on to your dreams?

23:16

I guess at the time, I wasn't real clear about

23:19

what did I want? You know, I

23:21

was, I was finally dancing,

23:25

I was getting reviewsed I was. I

23:29

was doing everything I thought I was supposed to

23:31

do to be a star wars.

23:33

I just wanted to have

23:36

something to show for it. I

23:38

have nothing to show for any of that. I

23:41

had some fictures, newspaper

23:44

articles. I

23:47

wanted to reward my parents

23:49

for everything they did. I

23:51

wanted to at least do a down payment

23:54

on the house. Come on, we lived in the projects.

23:58

Dad worked two jobs. They

24:00

loved us so much, and I just that

24:03

was a focus and it didn't happen,

24:06

you know what I mean. So

24:09

my parents went and got a house on their

24:11

own. I

24:14

never helped with that.

24:18

You know what strikes me as so

24:20

sad about this Lydia and

24:23

always has is, for

24:26

all intents and purposes, you

24:28

were as big a star

24:31

as a dancer can dream

24:33

of. So it's

24:35

sad to think of you looking

24:38

back on this storied career with

24:41

anything other than awe

24:44

and pride.

24:46

And I do, but again,

24:49

I just don't have anything else to show for

24:51

it. The memories are gone,

24:53

you know, there's no taps, there's no nothing,

24:57

and hopefully it's.

25:01

It's in the book, Lydia. Yeah,

25:04

your work are in the book. And what

25:06

you have done, you have reclaimed

25:10

your story. You just

25:12

maybe don't believe it yet. You

25:15

have done this, you have corrected

25:18

history, and now you just have to internalize

25:22

that correction. You were there. Do

25:26

you think your parents were so

25:29

proud of your career at Dance

25:31

Theater of Harlem. Did your hard working father

25:33

ever make it to see you in the ballet?

25:35

Oh, my gosh, she came. He was working as

25:38

a janitor at Brooklyn College, and we did

25:40

combat and I die

25:42

at the end, and my mom said that he had

25:45

tears in his eyes, and

25:47

all he said was very good Mama.

25:50

You know afterwards, imagine

25:54

seeing your oldest daughter up

25:56

on stage like that and the whole audience

25:59

on their feet. How proud they must

26:01

have been. Yeah,

26:06

you do decide at a very

26:08

pivotal time to take

26:10

a real leap of faith and

26:13

to take a break from Dance Theater of Harlem

26:16

to be a part of a movie,

26:19

and not just any movie. Can

26:21

you tell a little bit about your

26:24

decision to join the Whiz.

26:26

Oh. Yeah. We were in Chicago

26:29

and I had done Tchaikovsky Pototor,

26:32

a very vigorous ballet, and I sprained

26:35

my ankle doing it. Didn't realize

26:37

it until I went to put my points you on for

26:39

the next ballet, and my foot

26:41

was so swollen I couldn't get it on. So

26:43

I had to be off for about three weeks.

26:46

And in the meantime I heard some of the dancers saying,

26:48

you know, Lewis Johnson, who had set a ballet

26:51

on us, was doing this movie,

26:54

and Gail McKinney was going to be

26:56

one of his skeleton crew, and

26:59

so I got his number from her and

27:01

he said, oh absolutely. It

27:04

was every black dancer from

27:06

the city, every black model,

27:09

top models, emon, everyone

27:12

was going to do this movie. This was

27:14

a once in a lifetime event.

27:18

And so I never got the

27:21

disapproval from Arthur

27:23

until he started calling the eleven of

27:25

us who left the Dumb Eleven.

27:28

There were so many of us that went to do the

27:30

movie that he didn't have

27:32

enough dancers and he wanted us to come

27:34

back, and I still

27:37

wasn't ready to come back. I was

27:40

I was not feeling that pressure

27:44

of being perfect and being the lead.

27:47

No, no, no no. And

27:50

then I

27:53

auditioned for all

27:55

that Jazz with Bob Fosse and

27:58

I'll never forget. They were like, I

28:01

don't know how many hundreds of dancers on

28:03

the stage and the first thing Bob

28:05

Fassi always did was a ballet combination

28:08

m dah. He

28:11

eliminated so many dancers

28:14

just from that first piece.

28:18

And he stopped the audition. He

28:20

said, what is your name? I

28:22

said, Lydia, Lydia. Oh Barker, I

28:25

said, okay. He had even called

28:27

me and wanted

28:29

to know what he could do to make me want

28:31

to come do the movie. And

28:34

I said, no, it's just going to

28:36

be a chorus job. And I really

28:38

want to go to Europe. You

28:40

know, I might be the next Josephine Baker.

28:42

When I talk now, I said, oh my

28:44

god, I was so dense. But

28:50

I made the bad decision because

28:52

Bubblin Brown Sugar was going to Europe.

28:56

So I did it for about four months. You

28:58

know, a lot of people didn't know I did jazz,

29:00

and I taught myself tapped to do that

29:03

show and that was with Cab

29:05

calloway. Oh my god, were.

29:09

You missing ballet during this time.

29:11

Were you missing the

29:13

choreography, were you missing the

29:15

company? Were you missing Arthur?

29:21

I needed the break, I

29:23

really did. That

29:26

particular employment ended very

29:29

badly. I listened

29:31

to a co worker

29:34

who said, let's go to England and

29:36

see the London casts. A

29:38

bubb mc brown sugar just

29:40

calling sick. We're entitled the Sick

29:42

Days. And I did. But when we came back, they had

29:45

packed up our stuff and we were

29:47

fired. We had a

29:49

lawsuitcase and we got our money

29:51

back because that was ridiculous.

29:54

But it made me sit down

29:56

and think about, you know, where's

29:59

my life gone? You know, I

30:01

have this man that was really

30:03

really he had

30:05

my back, Arthur Mitchell, and

30:08

so I went back to the company and

30:10

that's when he told me they were going to be doing Swanlike.

30:15

And Swan Lake for so many ballerinas,

30:18

is the pivotal, the

30:21

essential ballet, the

30:23

krem de la creme of roles. Did it feel

30:25

like that to you?

30:28

No?

30:28

The only version I had ever seen was

30:30

Valentine's version the second act,

30:34

and that's probably sacrilegious that

30:36

a ballerina has never I've never seen

30:38

the whole thing. Okay,

30:41

I had two months to learn it, and

30:45

opening night Balanchine

30:47

was there. He wanted the pace to

30:49

be a little quicker. Arthur

30:52

wanted some we

30:54

call it the zah, you know, like za

30:57

the energy, you know,

30:59

that dotted and there was a sentence, you

31:01

know. And so the

31:05

curtains get ready to go up and I'm the wings

31:08

and someone came up and said, good luck

31:10

Lydia, and I just I just wanted

31:13

to scream because I had no

31:15

idea what

31:17

the heck I was. What kind of bird

31:20

was I gonna be? I mean,

31:22

I really didn't relate. I could

31:24

not relate. And it sounds so bad,

31:27

but I didn't grow up with this. I didn't

31:30

I didn't have this reverence

31:33

for it. I didn't get it. So

31:35

you know, I got through it. The potted

31:38

dur was absolutely beautiful.

31:40

The audience would not stop clapping

31:42

after Ronald and I separated

31:45

and went in the wings, and we just

31:47

looked at each other across the stage and we're

31:49

like, what are we supposed to do? I

31:51

don't think we went back out, but they finally

31:54

stopped clapping and we

31:56

finished the ballet. That was

31:58

the first time I got, you know, kind

32:00

of if he reviews and I

32:02

understood it. I understood it. This

32:05

is not Lydia, this is not the

32:08

culmination of the years and the sacrifices

32:11

and the hard work that I came

32:14

to do this particular ballet

32:16

that is not important to me. And

32:20

I had heard rumors that we were going

32:22

to do Giselle next. It's

32:25

so not me that I

32:27

realized it was time. It

32:29

was just time to go.

32:32

What Arthur was doing was too

32:34

important. And my little

32:37

beef about the Classics

32:39

and the direction he was taking

32:42

had nothing to do with the

32:44

goal of the company. And

32:46

there were dancers who did aspire

32:49

to do the classics. I

32:51

was just not one of them. I was

32:53

thirty years old, I was making three hundred

32:55

and fifty dollars a week. I was done.

33:00

So I remember that morning. I got up

33:02

and I was just a little restaurant on the corner

33:04

where i'd get an egg sandwich or something, and I'm

33:06

when I came out, I said, I'm

33:08

going to tell him. And I must have walked

33:10

from the traffic light pole to

33:13

the door of the restaurant. I don't know how many times.

33:15

And if I long lived in my building, then

33:17

he comes up. He's an old vaudeville

33:20

performer, and he said, what's the matter

33:22

with you? And I said, I'm gonna quit

33:24

dance theater today and

33:27

he said, good for you. We need

33:29

to see more of you. So

33:33

that gave me the little bit of push I needed

33:36

to go. Arthur's yelling

33:38

at me, You're just lazy, you don't want to do this,

33:41

and you know, I just let him rant

33:45

because I had made up my mind. And so I'm

33:47

gonna tell you when I walked out that door, who

33:52

the weight that came off my shoulders?

34:00

Get over?

34:03

You made me think when you said the weight that

34:05

came off my shoulders, I

34:08

wonder if part of the weight was

34:11

not just the weight of Arthur's expectations

34:13

for you, but the

34:16

weight of being an

34:18

ambassador, the weight

34:20

of being this

34:23

first black prima ballerina,

34:26

as big of an honor as it was.

34:30

Was that all exhausting too?

34:34

It was exhausting, but I was proud.

34:37

I was very proud of what I

34:39

had accomplished with the company, had accomplished.

34:42

I just wasn't willing to keep doing

34:44

that. I'm trying to be

34:46

careful what I say here. It

34:50

was time for Lydia to go. What

34:53

Arthur was doing was too important.

34:56

He had this mission to prove

34:59

that the answer of color, which

35:01

you know, it's so silly

35:04

that there were capable of doing

35:06

ballet. So if he felt the need

35:08

to do the classics like Giselle

35:11

and Swan Lake, that

35:13

was his mission. I

35:16

had contributed everything that I could,

35:20

and it was time to go. I did not want

35:22

anybody to hear me complaining

35:25

and then and in it. No,

35:29

I recognized it as my

35:32

time.

35:34

You do get this great shot

35:36

at another Broadway

35:39

production. Bob Fosse casts

35:41

you in Dancing. You

35:44

finally get a shot at the an ranking rule.

35:46

Yeah. I was hired

35:49

to do trombone solo Benny

35:51

Goodman sing, sing, Sing, But well,

35:54

I wanted to do that trumpet solo

35:56

so bad. It just spoke to

35:59

my heart, my soul.

36:01

And so when the role came up, I

36:04

know I nailed it. He said,

36:07

okay, this is your solo, and he

36:09

worked with me and tailored it to me, and

36:12

I have to say I didn't know how to

36:14

hold back. We had been trained

36:17

to give one hundred and ten percent every

36:19

performance, and that's what I did for

36:22

eight shows a week for six months, and

36:24

I blew out my knee. But

36:26

I have no regrets. So that's how

36:28

I went out. I

36:31

loved doing it. Oh

36:34

yeah, and all that ballet

36:36

training came in handy.

36:37

By the way, did

36:41

you know how bad the

36:43

injury was? Did

36:46

you know? It was kind

36:48

of a career ender?

36:51

When I first had it looked

36:54

at. I went to the hospital for

36:56

special surgery because my sister worked

36:58

there and she was able to get me in to see

37:01

orthopedist and he

37:03

said it needed surgery, but he

37:05

couldn't do it right away. So

37:08

I went to another doctor who apparently

37:11

did most of the surgeries if

37:13

they were needed for New York City ballet

37:15

dancers. And the surgery,

37:17

I thought it would be something I could just jump back

37:20

really quickly. And no,

37:23

and so I was still having pain, and I

37:25

went back and the second time I was under

37:27

I could hear him

37:30

during the surgery saying things like, well,

37:32

what does she expect me to do it this? Nie?

37:34

She's too old anyway? Why doesn't

37:37

she just model?

37:41

So I'm hearing this, and

37:44

I'm just so not confrontational.

37:47

I just you know, after the surgery,

37:49

I never went back. I did bag

37:51

him to refer me to physical therapy.

37:53

That was not even something

37:55

he offered me, and

37:58

I did that for a while, and I spent so much time

38:00

trying to get my knee back together. And

38:03

again, I'm thirty.

38:05

While you were rehabbing your

38:07

knee, you're on crutches for a summer,

38:10

and you start spending each

38:12

day with your grandmother, watching

38:15

TV with her, and you once

38:17

described how she said during

38:20

a commercial break, oh, Lydia, how

38:22

are you going to get on without the applause?

38:26

And what was that

38:29

like for you to stop

38:32

being on stage, to stop

38:34

being the star who gets

38:37

on course after encourse.

38:39

You know, at that time, I really still

38:41

thought I would be able to get back on the stage.

38:44

I really did, so I didn't when

38:47

she said that. In my head,

38:50

I'll know, I'll get back to that. I'll

38:52

get back to that. But you

38:54

know, as it went on and I realized I was

38:57

not Again, what

38:59

am I supposed to do? I

39:02

trusted, I lived this fairy

39:04

tale in my head. But

39:07

I was taking jazz classes at Luigi's

39:11

and there was a woman there and I noticed she

39:13

wasn't really taking the class. She was more talking

39:16

to Luigian between combinations,

39:18

and she came up to me and she said, are you Lydia Barker?

39:20

And I said yes. She says, you

39:24

have got to come teach at my school. You

39:27

have got to come to Queen's

39:31

and teach my students. And ah,

39:34

there it was. I

39:36

had never thought about teaching. I

39:39

was too busy trying to get back on that stage.

39:42

And that opened up a whole new focus

39:45

for me. Teaching, yeah,

39:47

and sharing what I knew and not

39:50

being mean like Arthur and pretty

39:52

much getting the same results.

39:56

You know, it seems a truth about

39:58

dancers is that

40:01

they're treated as disposable in

40:03

this business. You all

40:06

would often say how Arthur would

40:09

say, You're all replaceable. You

40:11

know, I got a dozen more dancers coming

40:13

up. You can lose your

40:15

part at any time. You're replaceable.

40:18

What in hindsight would

40:21

you tell young dancers

40:24

so as to not see themselves

40:28

as replaceable?

40:30

You know, what I

40:32

really think dancers need to concentrate

40:36

on is their own worth.

40:39

And I hate when

40:41

I hear of dancers

40:43

who are striving

40:46

to be in a ballet company

40:49

and the possibilities of

40:51

them getting into the company or being

40:53

promoted in the company are very

40:55

slim, and so I

40:58

feel strongly that you have have to find

41:01

a company that will nourish

41:03

you, that will nurture you, that

41:06

will use you. And

41:08

I don't know what it is about.

41:11

I don't know these big companies that

41:14

are very slow to

41:16

diversify, and that's their right.

41:19

But Arthur Mitchell had the right

41:22

idea. If you won't take us, we'll

41:24

do our own. It's a short career.

41:27

You got to make a decision.

41:30

You said, how important you

41:32

would think it is for a young dancer

41:35

to find herself

41:37

in a company that nurtures and nourishes

41:39

her. Did Dance Theater

41:42

of Harlem do that for you?

41:43

Oh? My gosh, yes, I

41:46

told you I was clueless, and

41:50

I'm the rarity because everyone else

41:52

that was there had known what

41:54

they were working towards. Oh,

41:57

Dance stead of Harlem. And you

41:59

could talk to Annie that, especially

42:01

the founding members in the first and second

42:04

generations that got mister

42:06

Mitchell's personal attention. Ooh,

42:10

priceless, priceless.

42:13

He could tear you down, but he could just as

42:15

easily build you up. You know, not with

42:17

praise, but with just

42:19

maybe a nod of approval. You're just

42:21

knowing that you know, you did your

42:23

best, and that's what he was looking for. You

42:26

know.

42:27

You visited Arthur

42:29

in his apartment shortly before his

42:31

death. Can you talk a little bit

42:34

about what inspired you to make

42:36

the trip.

42:38

I

42:40

never bragged about what I did. I

42:44

would mention it, and I loved

42:46

having proof of it. And

42:49

my daughter's the same way. Daniella.

42:51

She was telling people her

42:53

mom was the first black ballerina dance

42:56

theatre Harlem, and I

42:58

think she went to prove it one day

43:01

and she put in first

43:03

black Ballerina and the only thing that kept

43:05

coming up was Misty Copeland. Misty

43:08

Copeland, Mom, I

43:10

thought you said you were the first

43:13

black prima ballerina. Well,

43:15

I was, well,

43:17

where's your stuff? And so we made

43:20

that trip because she

43:23

wanted us as a family to

43:25

go up to dance at her Harlem, try to get some

43:27

photos. And we went

43:29

to the New York Public Library and I showed

43:32

them a film of combat, but the quality

43:35

was so bad. They were young,

43:37

they didn't stay focused

43:39

long. Al My husband

43:41

said, why don't you call Arthur because we knew he lived

43:44

near Lincoln Center. And

43:47

I called him. I don't

43:49

know, and he said, well, who's

43:51

with you? I said, just my family,

43:53

Okay, come by. I couldn't believe he

43:56

said to come by. It was wonderful

44:00

it was wonderful.

44:02

He let Al tape him.

44:05

He was so complimentary. He took

44:07

out Lord Snowden's book and showed

44:10

how the picture with me and Jerome Robbins

44:12

was so good, and you

44:14

know, he showed off his cheek muscles

44:17

back in the day. But

44:20

that's why we were there. We really, my

44:23

kids, my family, and

44:26

Arthur. I just it just

44:28

gave me validation. After

44:31

I left the company, I never called him.

44:33

I never made

44:35

it a point to talk to him again.

44:38

To me, it was just an understanding that, you

44:41

know, it was time for me to leave. But

44:43

whenever in the summers, I would drive

44:45

the kids up, just me and the kids because Al had

44:47

to work, and we always stopped

44:50

a dance theater and he, if he was

44:52

there, he'd be, oh, here's Lydia, Come, Lydia.

44:54

He'd show me around and this is a

44:56

new room, and everybody, this

44:59

is my first Bota Lydia Barker.

45:01

And it just felt so good

45:04

to know that he wasn't upset with me anymore,

45:07

you.

45:07

Know, Lydia,

45:11

how does it feel today

45:14

to reclaim the

45:16

fact that you

45:19

were a prima ballerina?

45:22

How does it feel to

45:25

put the fact of your

45:28

achievement down on record.

45:32

It's time. I'm

45:35

humble, but I know what I

45:37

did, and I know how hard it was to do

45:39

it, and I just

45:41

want, you know, history to remember

45:44

that. But I do want

45:46

people to remember I

45:48

do m that's vanity,

45:51

I guess, but I do well.

45:54

I don't know if it's vanity, it's fact.

45:57

Yeah. We were drilled

46:00

into humility. You know, you

46:03

want to be an artist, and so being

46:05

shy and non confrontational, I

46:08

was quite willing to just assume

46:10

that people would remember me. You

46:13

know, it's okay to talk

46:16

about it and brag about it and

46:18

be remembered for it. You know, Arthur

46:20

was not on stage when that curtain went up.

46:23

It was us.

46:30

You had an extraordinary first act

46:32

in your life, Lydia, and your second act

46:35

was so meaningful

46:38

in your struggle to find peace and

46:41

stability. But it's such a joy

46:43

to witness you in your third act

46:46

now and to see you in the spotlight,

46:48

which is really where you've always belonged.

46:50

Oh, thank you so much, Karen.

46:53

Thank you.

47:00

That was Lydia Ebarka and Karen Valby,

47:03

the author of The Swans of Harlem, which is available

47:05

wherever books and audio books are sold.

47:08

If you like this interview, you're in luck. There's another

47:10

one coming up with former ballerina Sheila

47:13

Rohan. Keep an eye out for that, and

47:15

thanks for listening.