0:58

So what is

1:00

Bartholomew doing in

1:02

all of this? Given

1:05

everything that's changed

1:07

so suddenly. Yikes.

1:10

Yeah. Well, I think Bartholomew

1:13

is establishing

1:16

a new church, basically.

1:18

Yeah. Yeah, just basically, you know,

1:21

that's it. Great, great time

1:23

to be doing that. People

1:25

really looking for religion right

1:28

now. Well, yeah, I think

1:30

that's probably true. Yeah, absolutely.

1:32

And, you know, every time he

1:35

gave a sermon on screen, it

1:37

was like, about the need for

1:39

hope in what feels like

1:41

terrifying hopeless end times.

1:43

Wow, why it's super relevant,

1:46

I guess, maybe. He's

1:48

got a very particular

1:50

skill set that's extremely

1:52

relevant in this particular

1:54

moment. Yeah, wild, right?

1:56

It's almost like, that was

1:58

done on purpose. Yeah, so I think

2:01

it's kind of, you know, it's not

2:03

a good time, but it is

2:05

indeed the perfect time for this

2:07

sort of change to happen, I

2:10

think. I do think it's

2:12

important that we stop calling

2:14

it a cult. Yeah, I think that

2:16

is probably very important here.

2:19

On our end, I don't

2:21

think they were ever... Yeah. No

2:23

one was ever calling it a

2:25

cult in Roonscape, but... No, no,

2:27

no, I don't think so. Yeah,

2:29

because it's not a cult. I mean,

2:31

well, what's the dictionary definition

2:33

of a cult? Maybe in

2:36

that sense of it is. Yeah, I

2:38

mean, I guess in the dictionary

2:40

definition, it is a system of

2:43

religious veneration and devotion

2:45

directed toward a particular

2:47

figure or object, but

2:49

not in the negative sense

2:51

of the word anymore. I think

2:53

even more so than the first

2:55

one, right? Because this is not.

2:57

This is not the cult of Bartholomew,

3:00

right? No, well I was thinking

3:02

it was still Jesus. Oh sure, right.

3:04

The second dictionary definition, right,

3:06

but the Catholicism also

3:09

occult by that definition, right?

3:11

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

3:13

Like any Christianity. The second

3:15

definition here, a relatively small

3:17

group of people having religious

3:20

beliefs or practices regarded

3:22

by others as strange. That's also

3:25

technically true. Yeah, that's probably

3:27

true. But I guess that is

3:29

one of my questions here is

3:31

like, is this new version of

3:34

this religion, like, other than

3:36

the acknowledgement of the sort

3:38

of blurtiness between what the

3:41

old version of the church

3:43

considered good and considered evil,

3:46

right? Other than that

3:48

acknowledgement, are there like significant

3:51

differences between this

3:53

new version of the church that

3:55

Bartholomew has founded? And

3:57

the church before. I mean...

4:00

Yeah, I think there's

4:02

probably a lot of

4:04

significant differences. Where to

4:06

even begin? I mean, I

4:09

don't think that, you know, like

4:11

the order of the righteous

4:13

apostles, I clear

4:15

obviously based on

4:17

Catholicism, and there's a

4:19

lot of guilt, there's a lot

4:22

of, you know, you're gonna

4:24

go to hell if these

4:26

things happen, like... fear tactics,

4:28

which were even more

4:31

intense in this sort

4:33

of thing since, you

4:35

know, Antaris is a

4:37

terrifying planet and

4:39

you see quote-unquote

4:42

demonic stuff on

4:44

the regular. We take, we

4:47

take, I'm like an ad

4:49

for this new... We take

4:51

that out of religious. Yeah,

4:54

I mean, but it's true,

4:56

like... This is not

4:58

about fear, it's not

5:00

about guilt. Also

5:02

not like, I think

5:04

the hierarchy is

5:07

definitely not the

5:09

same. Sure. Like

5:11

Bartholomew got proverbs

5:14

to step aside, but

5:17

not necessarily, not

5:20

with the intention

5:22

of replacing him.

5:24

You know. Right. Like, yes,

5:26

he is a leader, but I

5:29

don't think there's the

5:31

intention of being, like,

5:34

the leader. The leader. Exactly.

5:36

He's not the new

5:39

Pope. Exactly. He's not

5:41

new Pope. Yeah. I think that's

5:43

so interesting,

5:46

particularly when framed

5:48

in terms of thinking

5:50

about... Sorry, that was

5:52

the most like... Academia brained, I'm

5:54

talking in class and having thought

5:57

of what I'm saying yet, phrasing

5:59

of a sentence. That's okay. In terms

6:01

of thinking about the way that it's

6:03

okay, let it happen. In terms

6:05

of thinking about the way that we

6:07

have kind of like framed Bartholomew as,

6:10

I mean, in some cases, like a

6:12

Jesus figure, very literally, right? In some

6:14

cases, a sort of like prophet

6:16

type or like saint like figure.

6:19

It's interesting then to get

6:21

this very deliberate sort of

6:23

like anti hierarchical maneuver where

6:25

Bartholomew maybe in order to make

6:28

this happen has to like step down

6:30

a little bit from this position of

6:32

like, like still being a leader obviously,

6:34

but like, I think it would have

6:37

been very, very easy, especially given the

6:39

fact that Ruins Gate is now cut

6:41

off from the other churches by and

6:44

large, right? Oh yeah. For Bartholomew

6:46

to become like a major figurehead

6:49

for people here, right, as the sort

6:51

of leader of what we were

6:53

previously calling the cult, which was

6:55

very much a cult of Bartholomew.

6:57

Yeah. And so I wonder, I guess

6:59

one of my big questions here is

7:02

like, given that that is

7:04

the case, and obviously thinking

7:06

of Bartholomew still as

7:08

being a leader, are there

7:10

deliberate measures that Bartholomew takes

7:13

to sort of shift the

7:15

focus away from himself as

7:17

a figurehead and back on towards

7:19

what the church actually values?

7:21

Yeah, I mean, like, just in

7:24

a purely like organizational

7:26

sense, like... division of

7:28

labor, you know, like, he has

7:30

been the one that has

7:32

been doing all of the,

7:35

like, sermons before, all of

7:37

the, like, let's gather together

7:39

and listen to me

7:41

speak, like, I'm sitting

7:44

here in the brothel

7:46

and people can come up

7:48

and, like, you know, have their

7:50

little moments with

7:53

me. I think it would be,

7:55

like, I don't know. Creating

7:57

more of a sense that it's

7:59

like... I mean, at first, in the very

8:01

early bit, because this is at

8:03

first, I guess it can't be fully

8:07

equal for everyone because there

8:09

does have to be an establishment

8:11

of belief and doctrine and all

8:14

of that sort of stuff. But

8:16

I think spreading it out more

8:19

to obviously fill up Hosea,

8:24

like Dove, you

8:27

know, people like

8:29

that especially, people who

8:31

are not high members

8:34

of the church

8:36

before is

8:38

really important, I think. Not

8:41

that I have other names. You

8:46

know, who might be interested in stepping

8:48

up a little bit here now that the situation

8:50

is what it is. Yeah, who? Jasper

8:53

Lonesome. Oh, shit. I

8:55

wasn't gonna force him, but if he would be

8:57

interested. Yeah, I mean, not

8:59

as, you know, probably not as sort of

9:01

a like central, of course. Yeah, but

9:03

like certainly to, you know, helping out with

9:05

this and sort of taking on some sort

9:08

of responsibility in

9:10

that way, right?

9:12

Yeah. I think particularly

9:15

that kind of like de -centering

9:17

of power is something that makes

9:19

all of this a little more like

9:21

appealing to him. He was already

9:23

on board with you, right? But I

9:25

think that like his hesitations around

9:28

being on board with the church in

9:30

any major way have

9:32

kind of been addressed by

9:34

the like open attempt to

9:36

shift away from the like

9:38

power structures that were in place

9:40

before. Yeah, I think I'm seeing

9:42

a lot of like, you

9:46

know, people get together in

9:48

a group and talk about

9:50

these things that have been

9:52

shared. Yeah. But

9:55

also people get together in

9:57

a group and talk about how

9:59

straight and terrifying things

10:01

are right now. Yeah. And

10:03

like, but also what like we

10:06

can do, not just in like,

10:08

I think this is another

10:10

thing that's big for this

10:12

new church. It's not abstract.

10:14

Like it's not all just

10:17

like, I pray and I have faith

10:19

that something is gonna

10:22

change or something has

10:24

happened. Like, that's the big

10:26

thing. Like they have the

10:28

power. like Bartholomew has shown

10:30

that there are things that

10:32

he is able to do that the

10:34

other like former confessors

10:37

I guess at this point are able

10:39

to do that are like concrete

10:41

but not even just like

10:44

the supernatural things like right

10:46

you can concretely help

10:48

ruins gate and help other

10:50

people around you and not just

10:52

do like oh I go to church

10:54

and say a prayer and that's like

10:57

I lied a candle for someone. It's

10:59

more actionable than that. It's what

11:01

it should be. It's what it should have

11:03

been. Yeah. I'm imagining here an

11:05

emphasis even in the way that

11:07

people are speaking about this as

11:09

like, you know, we have this thing of like,

11:12

you know, Bartholomew and Philip

11:14

and Hosiah, right, like, some of

11:16

the going line about the confessors

11:18

is like, God gave us these

11:20

abilities. so that we can help

11:22

our community, which was not really

11:24

what was happening in practice before,

11:26

but was like the rhetoric, and

11:28

now is like one more happening

11:30

in practice, and then two I think

11:32

also like there's the second sort of

11:34

logical follow on to that, which is

11:36

like, and so I too as a

11:38

normal person should use the gifts that

11:40

God gave me to help my community

11:43

as well, right? Yeah, exactly. And whether

11:45

that's I have, in dubs case, I

11:47

have a space where people can congregate

11:50

safely, right. like literal tools that

11:52

I can go use to help repair

11:54

somebody's home or that kind of thing,

11:56

right? That that becomes like a real

11:58

part of the ethos. of the faith.

12:01

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Are you

12:03

still confessor Bartholomew lamentations? I

12:05

say this one because of

12:07

the hierarchical thing. I know.

12:09

And I also say this

12:11

too because confessor as a

12:13

word feels so associated with

12:15

some of the like... Like

12:17

baggage of guilt and shame,

12:19

right? Confession as a sacrament

12:21

is so much about that.

12:23

I mean, it's, I know

12:25

for Catholic listeners in the

12:27

audience, I know that it's,

12:29

it's not just about that,

12:31

right? I know that there's

12:33

more to it theologically than

12:35

just making you feel guilt

12:37

and shame. But you're talking

12:40

to the one with the,

12:42

I have been to confession,

12:44

I understand. But also, yeah,

12:46

but I think that like,

12:48

like, there's unavoidably the association

12:50

between confession and... You should

12:52

feel ashamed for the sins

12:54

you have committed. Right? Yeah.

12:56

Sorry that a priest told

12:58

me in eighth grade that

13:00

I was using my words

13:02

for evil not for good

13:04

because I confessed to gossiping.

13:06

Like, sorry that's just real

13:08

life. Yeah. Sorry that I

13:10

grew up Catholic. Yeah, I

13:12

mean, it's just, well, and

13:14

I mean, there's a reason

13:16

I chose the word confessor.

13:18

Right, yeah, yeah. You know,

13:20

we're not, we're not being

13:22

subtle here. about things. Um,

13:25

yeah, I mean, honestly, I

13:27

feel like the titles have

13:29

to go away. Yeah. But

13:31

I say that without, I

13:33

think the title of, the

13:35

titles of Confessor have to

13:37

go away, but I don't

13:39

think there's any way that

13:41

Bartholomew would give up lamentations

13:43

and would also agree that

13:45

like, Philip is, Philip, a

13:47

song of songs. And poor

13:49

Josea is still just that,

13:51

right now. Yeah. You know,

13:53

but like, yeah, I think

13:55

that's a pretty quintessential thing

13:57

to keep though. Not to

13:59

like... set apart but to

14:01

acknowledge because I mean this is

14:03

like the whole reason that Bartholomew

14:06

got here and got to this place

14:09

is because of that is because

14:11

of lamentations and everything

14:13

that he learned and

14:15

discovered with that so yeah

14:17

take away confessor but leave the

14:19

books of the Bible I don't

14:22

think they would necessary I don't

14:24

think there's a send people out

14:26

into the ruin to the ruin

14:28

to Try to get more of

14:30

us vibe going on here. Especially

14:32

not right now. In part because

14:34

I think that portion of the

14:37

ruin cut off from you all

14:39

currently. That's probably for the best.

14:41

I think we should. Yeah. I

14:43

think that's a good thing. Yeah.

14:45

Okay, I'm trying to get what

14:47

other questions I have here.

14:49

Still using the church or

14:51

moving away from the church

14:53

as a congregational space. No, I

14:55

think we should use the church. I think

14:57

we should I think we have to

15:00

use it and turn it into

15:02

something right different I

15:04

think that's pretty important to

15:06

make it to make it a

15:08

symbol of like safety and

15:10

hope and yeah you know warmth

15:12

I do I love that and I also

15:15

love even if you're not

15:17

the figurehead right I do

15:19

love finally getting the image

15:21

maybe of Bartholomew giving a

15:24

sermon in the church? Me too! Which

15:26

we haven't gotten to see because he

15:28

hasn't been allowed for all this time?

15:31

Yeah. Well, I think, well, I

15:33

mean, that's the thing. I think

15:35

that, like, obviously, Bartholm, even if

15:37

he's not the figurehead, he's still

15:39

going to give sermons and be

15:42

a spiritual leader. It's just that

15:44

he is not the spiritual. We

15:46

couldn't stop him if we tried.

15:48

Nothing could stop him. Yeah. I

15:50

mean that, yeah, I love that.

15:52

Oh, that yeah, that makes me happy

15:54

the image of him being allowed

15:56

to do that not even being allowed

15:59

like it's choice because you can

16:01

go do that and in a

16:03

way that is positive and and

16:06

yeah his choice because before it

16:08

was kind of like well I'm

16:10

doing this because this is what

16:13

I should be doing mhm and

16:15

the path I should be following

16:17

so yeah pretty important a couple

16:19

of I think like equally substantial

16:22

but slightly more aesthetic questions mhm

16:24

priest robes still You know as

16:26

much, you know me Christine. I

16:29

do, I do. You're really like,

16:31

this is a tough question because

16:33

this, my aesthetic preferences and the

16:36

theological teachings really don't match here.

16:38

I'm about to ask a much

16:40

harder question after this, which is,

16:43

what's up with the relics now?

16:45

Well, I think that I kind

16:47

of think that's an easier question

16:49

because it's not like we're gonna

16:52

just we're not gonna just right

16:54

sure I think I think it's

16:56

fair of those to stay because

16:59

these people were holy people called

17:01

to even if it was like

17:03

an incorrectly, you know, not well

17:06

informed choice, you know, I don't

17:08

yeah, I think the relics can

17:10

stay. but are just not as

17:13

prominent of a right of a

17:15

part of things now and we're

17:17

probably not going to do that

17:19

anymore sure think we can probably

17:22

put that one behind us yeah

17:24

and I think especially especially one

17:26

of the things we really emphasized

17:29

I think in and I'm realizing

17:31

now that probably a lot of

17:33

our audience maybe didn't hear this

17:36

because I don't know if it

17:38

ever came up in an episode

17:40

but it was in our faction

17:43

building episode One of the things

17:45

we talked a lot about with

17:47

that is like everyone in ruins

17:49

gate doesn't have a lot of

17:52

money and the church is spending

17:54

all this money like exactly Bedazzling

17:56

their relics, right? It's that very

17:59

like Yeah. Like all the

18:01

peasants are starving and the, you

18:03

know, the bishops are living it up

18:05

kind of like disparity there,

18:07

right? And I do remember, I actually

18:09

did say, like in one of the,

18:12

I don't remember which one, but one

18:14

of the Bartholomew sermons I

18:16

did during a downtime, I

18:18

said something about that, which

18:20

is unfortunately me that probably

18:23

like we got. We got to put away

18:25

some of the fancy. The fanciness.

18:27

Now, that doesn't mean

18:29

we can't wear plane

18:31

robes. True. I think the

18:33

only thing with that though is

18:36

that it like, I don't

18:38

think it is a requirement.

18:40

Right. I think it's more of

18:42

like a choice. And it should be

18:45

a choice that is open to

18:47

everyone. Sure. Not something

18:49

that is like only church

18:52

leaders. Right. You know, like if

18:54

you're feeling, if you're really

18:56

feeling the faith, one day... And the

18:59

spirit has moved you to

19:01

wear these robes. To wear a red

19:03

robe. I don't know, I don't know.

19:05

Maybe it's more like, because I

19:07

mean, it's not like they're

19:09

going to get rid of all their,

19:11

their robes. Of course, yeah. So I

19:14

mean, there is a certain group of

19:16

people in this town that have

19:18

those. Mm-hmm. I just imagine

19:21

like less ornate. Yeah, I

19:23

think that makes sense that use

19:25

the jewels and the well

19:27

the hellstone and the gold

19:29

and Everything for for other

19:31

purposes. I mean we can't

19:33

really we don't have like

19:35

trade with outside Right outside

19:38

people right now, but like there

19:40

may be good use for some

19:42

of that hellstone as soon as

19:45

the like energy crisis that's gonna

19:47

hit Once the oil runs

19:49

out hits, so we can

19:51

get to that in the

19:54

finale. Yeah, definitely.

19:56

Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know. I

19:58

don't know. Maybe... Maybe I

20:00

was a little like too rash and

20:02

saying that like this red, you

20:04

just wear a robe if you want to wear a

20:06

robe. I don't

20:09

know. Maybe it's more of something like,

20:11

yes, you can choose to, but you

20:13

don't have to. I don't know if

20:15

we're spreading it around, you know. Sure.

20:18

It would be more like, you

20:21

know, like, hey, I'm

20:23

wearing some red or something. Like, unfortunately,

20:25

it is red. It has to

20:27

be red and white, since

20:29

that's what Bartholomew's been wearing this whole

20:31

time. And that's kind of like

20:33

a little morbid to me considering the state

20:35

of the

20:39

world, the

20:41

red glow coming from the ground

20:43

or whatever. But

20:45

yeah.

20:48

I think I did say that they have like

20:50

more casual. You did. You absolutely

20:52

did. I think we saw, we definitely

20:55

saw some of the

20:57

like everyday robes, investments rather

20:59

than the like, the

21:02

really, really, really, yeah, or neat ones. That

21:05

would probably be for fancy

21:07

occasions. Yeah.

21:10

Okay. So that feels like a pretty good sense

21:12

of where the church is at

21:15

here in these initial couple of weeks,

21:17

as you sort of start working

21:19

on this project of reform

21:21

and as the sort of shifting

21:23

landscape of the world, I think in

21:26

many ways enables that change to

21:28

happen faster than it might have otherwise.

21:31

I guess my next question

21:33

is a question about

21:35

Bartholomew in

21:38

particular. Yeah. And

21:41

about lamentations. Yes.

21:46

And usually this is something that I

21:48

would tell you, but I think given what we've

21:50

talked about off mic, this is instead something I'm going

21:53

to ask you. Okay. How does

21:55

lamentations feel about everything that's

21:57

happening right now? Yeah. How

21:59

does Wow, to be asked this

22:01

question, I feel like I'm taking

22:04

over a big responsibility.

22:06

I don't want to

22:08

give up this responsibility

22:10

in time. I don't want you to

22:13

give it up entirely to me.

22:15

I mean, I'm going to be

22:17

giving it up in the finale

22:19

because I won't be the GM

22:21

anymore. I guess you won't. So

22:23

I'm going to miss

22:25

lamentation's voice. That's okay.

22:27

It's really easy to

22:30

do it yourself. Just

22:32

pretend you're unhinging your

22:34

entire jaw every time you

22:37

like emphasize something and

22:39

speak really intensely

22:41

close to the microphone.

22:43

I love that noted noted

22:46

big time. Um, yeah, no, but

22:48

I think I think

22:50

that lamentations feels sated.

22:53

I think that's a good

22:55

word for it. Sure. Um, you

22:57

know, there was a lot of...

22:59

We went through a lot in

23:01

the past little bit. Yeah.

23:04

But it, you know, has

23:06

been made very clear

23:08

that they both are on the

23:10

same... I don't know, there's

23:13

an understanding.

23:15

They know what... or they feel

23:17

certain that this is like

23:20

what they're supposed

23:22

to be doing, and that

23:24

it is them... together.

23:26

So I think it's like

23:29

there's no longer the,

23:31

I don't know if you would

23:33

have called it doubt, but

23:36

like, okay, the whole idea

23:38

that, you know,

23:40

lamentations did not

23:43

exist until Bartholomew

23:46

like conjured them up

23:48

with their fear. Like,

23:51

that doesn't even matter

23:53

anymore. Right. That doesn't

23:56

like yes, it's good to know,

23:58

but it is so. far from

24:00

relevant that yeah I

24:02

mean I think just like I

24:05

think Lamentations has certainty as

24:07

well they share a

24:09

certainty together um

24:11

obviously I think they still probably want to

24:13

do some crazy shit

24:15

sometimes oh for

24:18

sure that will never go away

24:20

which I think is important

24:22

because I you know I'm like

24:24

we still have the ruin right here

24:26

we can still get into the ruin

24:28

right and the ruin can yeah come

24:30

to us I mean

24:32

I think I established in another one

24:34

of these that like a decent

24:37

sized chunk of the ruin is

24:39

within the like plateau that

24:41

ruins gate is currently on great

24:43

also it and Andrew asked me this

24:45

in his recording and the answer at

24:47

the time was no but the answer

24:49

I it was the answer was at this

24:51

time no but who knows about the

24:53

future which his question was is there

24:55

anything crawling up out of them cracks

24:58

yeah which who knows right exactly

25:00

I was gonna come out of these rifts to

25:02

these chasms at some point like yeah

25:04

your your Lamentations

25:06

is talents are still very

25:08

much needed exactly exactly I think

25:10

that's the thing like

25:13

also I mean a huge

25:15

important part of how

25:17

Lamentations is feeling

25:19

is that about all

25:21

of this is that they

25:23

feel the same

25:25

way that Bartholomew feels

25:27

mm -hmm like

25:30

there is I

25:33

mean there's always been

25:35

obviously understand well

25:37

not always they got

25:39

to understanding they learned

25:41

how to communicate

25:43

with each other and feel

25:46

what each other were

25:48

feeling but now

25:50

like that's not something that

25:52

they have to think about mm -hmm

25:55

and I use a they collectively here

25:57

neither of them think

26:00

about it because it is it is

26:02

more collective now. I mean

26:05

Bartholomew has been Bartholomew

26:07

lamentations this whole

26:10

time but like it that feels

26:12

more correct. Yeah. Now than it

26:14

did before even. I think there's

26:17

almost a way in which dropping

26:19

the confessor yeah makes

26:21

the Bartholomew lamentations feel

26:23

more like a choice than

26:26

a title. Yeah that's actually

26:28

yeah you're right. Exactly,

26:30

yeah. And I think it's important

26:33

that with that, and I

26:35

think this is not like, well

26:37

you described it in the last,

26:39

the very last downtime, that like

26:42

the moment trying to talk

26:44

to Second Kings was like,

26:46

it didn't feel like having

26:48

to go through lamentations

26:50

anymore, it was just

26:53

happening. Yeah. Like instinct

26:55

basically, like how you move

26:57

your hand or whatever. He

26:59

said something like that.

27:01

And I think that this

27:03

is very much the same

27:06

thing. It's not something

27:08

that was noticeable.

27:10

It just happened automatically.

27:14

And well, it did

27:16

become noticeable in

27:18

one way, perhaps. Mm-hmm.

27:21

Yeah. So something a

27:23

little strange happened.

27:25

to Bartholomew, I

27:27

think probably pretty

27:29

soon after that, like in

27:32

the very beginning of this

27:34

like, ruins gate being

27:36

separated from the rest

27:38

of the planet and the

27:41

planet being cut off. Right.

27:43

I think right at the beginning.

27:45

So Bartholomew got

27:47

that mutation that was

27:50

the kind of perpetually

27:52

open wound. on his cheek,

27:54

but it's not like gory,

27:56

it's not bloody, it's just

27:59

like... You can see

28:01

the bone, but there's

28:03

the white light radiating

28:07

from it. Yeah. Well,

28:09

that light started

28:11

to change. And I don't

28:14

mean, it stayed the

28:16

same, like, bright white,

28:18

the same kind of

28:20

like pulsing, radiating,

28:24

but it started

28:26

to kind of like,

28:29

cascade over

28:31

Bartholomew's face

28:33

almost like a mask

28:35

of light not solid

28:37

like it's an outline

28:40

but it's an outline

28:42

of lamentation's

28:44

face oh my god so they're

28:47

like dear freaky deer

28:50

skull right yeah and

28:52

it's not like

28:54

blocking Bartholomew's face like

28:56

you I have such a clear image

28:58

in my head I wish I was

29:00

an artist so that I could draw

29:02

it. I'm picturing I'm picturing kind of

29:04

like a double exposure photograph. Kind

29:07

of yeah yeah I'm seeing like

29:09

in my head it's like like the the

29:11

double exposure part is not as

29:13

like it's not opaque like not well

29:15

it's not even any kind of opaque

29:18

like I see it more as like the light

29:20

is like the light is like the light

29:22

is like the light is like the light

29:24

outline of details. Okay. Does

29:27

that make sense? I think so,

29:29

yeah. It's like an outline

29:31

of the shape of lamentations's

29:34

skull sort of overlaid,

29:36

transparent in light

29:38

over Bartholomew's face.

29:41

So like, yeah, like the outside

29:43

of the scope, like the

29:45

shape, the silhouette of it would

29:47

be like lines of light, and

29:49

then you would see like the

29:52

part where the noses. you'd

29:54

see like shapes of light where

29:56

the nostrils would be,

29:58

but there would be... space in

30:00

between. Okay. Does that make more

30:02

sense? I think yes, I think I think

30:05

it does. See I just wish I could

30:07

draw. I think I think what matters

30:09

here is that you've painted

30:11

a very vivid and exciting

30:13

image and even if I'm not

30:15

seeing the exact version of it

30:18

you are. You're seeing something totally

30:20

fucking cool and so I think

30:22

that that is clear enough. That's

30:25

what matters. And maybe one of

30:27

our incredible fan artist... fans

30:29

will try to recreate

30:31

this and post it and tag

30:33

us on, say, Blue Sky or

30:36

Tumblr, for instance, or email

30:38

it to us. Yes, just

30:40

straight up email it. Because

30:43

we'd love to see it

30:45

if you've attempted to recreate

30:47

this. Just figure out what

30:50

the hell I'm saying. Yeah, I

30:52

think it's just important

30:54

that like you can. Like Bartholomew's

30:57

mutations. Yeah, there

30:59

you go. Great, yeah. That's the

31:02

important part. Yeah, that feels,

31:04

yeah, that feels clear. Yeah. And

31:06

that it is radiating,

31:08

like it centers from that

31:10

cut, too. So skull face, glowing

31:13

cut, antlers, with, with,

31:15

like, carvings on them, and

31:17

thorns has ended up the

31:19

sum total of Bartholomew's

31:21

mutations. List amount, yeah,

31:23

there you go. Great, good.

31:26

Beautiful. I think it's important

31:28

that it is the white light

31:30

too. Yes. Especially right now. Yeah,

31:32

that is, wow, that must look

31:35

so interesting when everything is

31:37

kind of just like glowing

31:39

vaguely red, like the whole

31:41

sky is red, and your, this

31:43

is just this like bright white

31:45

light. Exactly. And not to

31:48

like I know like I know like I

31:50

know Barthel of you isn't Jesus

31:52

I know he's not the main

31:54

thing here in this religion You

31:56

really set yourself up for that

31:59

to be We are really hard

32:01

thing to convince people of.

32:03

Well, I think here's the

32:05

thing. Like, if people

32:07

believe

32:09

that of him, that's fine. If

32:11

people want to worship Bartholomew,

32:13

nobody's going to stop him. No,

32:15

no, no, I didn't say

32:17

that. I

32:20

didn't say that. I think he

32:22

would stop people from worshiping him.

32:24

But I don't think he can

32:26

deny. There is no way to deny

32:28

that he resurrected a man. Uh -huh.

32:30

And all of the other things

32:32

that have happened. Yeah. So

32:34

I don't think that he

32:36

would fault anyone

32:39

for having a

32:41

reverence. Right. But

32:43

he would try to make it

32:45

clear that he is not the center

32:47

here. He is

32:49

just one of many

32:51

messengers, one of many

32:54

people who have

32:56

seen or heard the truth you

32:58

know that sort of thing yeah I say

33:00

all this I

33:03

say all this, but I also do

33:05

have a new name for the church. OK.

33:09

It's just very simple change, because I

33:11

think it's important to have

33:13

something official.

33:17

Well, not, I mean, who's it official

33:19

with? It's just official with them. But,

33:23

you know, it's been the

33:25

righteous Apostles of Ruin's Gate,

33:27

which does paint a very clear picture. Yeah,

33:30

righteous is a pretty weight -bearing or

33:32

load -bearing word there. It sure is.

33:34

So we're going to choose another

33:36

load -bearing word here. I

33:39

think now it's going to be the

33:41

radiant Apostles of Ruin's Gate. I

33:44

mean, again, you know, hope,

33:46

light, good.

33:49

We're all radiant. But

33:52

Bartholomew's extra radiant, literally, because

33:54

I am radiant. You

33:56

are radiant, like, you

33:58

know. Damn. My

34:00

light shines back on you.

34:02

Shared. Damn. So true. Yeah.

34:04

Okay, I think I have

34:06

one more question here. Sure.

34:09

Just a sort of forward-looking

34:11

question as you've sort of

34:13

established all of this and

34:15

sort of the church is

34:17

starting to like feel settled

34:19

in a place that Bartholomew

34:21

is comfortable with. Oh, you

34:23

know what? Wait, wait, wait,

34:25

wait. Yeah. I forgot someone.

34:27

Oh, yes. I forgot corner.

34:29

Yeah. Because it is important

34:31

to me that he ended

34:33

up like actually coming. Yes.

34:35

Yeah. And helping at the

34:37

start. Absolutely. And I think

34:39

that that's another thing too.

34:42

Like what? This confessor who

34:44

was supposedly long dead is

34:46

actually a hermit and has

34:48

been living in the ruin.

34:50

and helped figure this out.

34:52

Yeah. Like it's important to

34:54

have his, you know, testimony,

34:56

his teaching, because he's a

34:58

very like, scholarly person. So

35:00

I think a different, a

35:02

different, Bible studies, he'll do

35:04

some discussion groups. Yeah. And

35:06

I do want to say,

35:08

oh, sorry, go on. No,

35:10

go ahead, go ahead. It

35:12

wasn't going to be about

35:15

coroner. Um, I was going

35:17

to say, do you know

35:19

who I think is particularly...

35:21

Not excited is the wrong

35:23

word, but who is particularly

35:25

affected maybe by meeting coroner

35:27

Second Kings? Who? Philip? I

35:29

mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean,

35:31

that makes sense. I think

35:33

for many, many reasons, right?

35:35

One, like, you know, it's

35:37

not that Bartholomew was not

35:39

religious, but Bartholomew became a

35:41

priest because he thought it

35:43

was what he was supposed

35:45

to do, right? Philip became

35:48

a priest because of like

35:50

a very, very deep, profoundly

35:52

felt and like deeply considered.

35:54

belief in all of this,

35:56

including the teaching of the

35:58

former confessors, right? I think

36:00

that as a fellow kind of like

36:02

slightly more scholarly type than Bartholomew

36:04

I think the two of them have

36:06

a lot in common and I also

36:09

think that like I think that things

36:11

have gotten easier for Philip over time

36:13

with the song of songs but I

36:15

think they still have not been easy and

36:17

I think that you know they're

36:19

very obviously still not still on

36:21

the like terms that you and lamentations

36:24

are on and I think that

36:26

just like having even just another

36:28

person to like work through some

36:31

of that with who has

36:33

been through it as well. Yeah.

36:35

I think is is really really

36:37

good for for Philip.

36:39

I love that. I have I realize

36:42

I have two more

36:44

things to make actually

36:46

absolutely. Because one I

36:48

do just have to shout

36:50

out Dakota as one of

36:52

the like as the big

36:54

lay people. Absolutely.

36:56

You know like I feel like

36:59

he's doing his thing.

37:01

He's been supportive and

37:04

interested and I think

37:06

that's a good like normal

37:08

people like yeah could not

37:11

be a more average man

37:13

than Dakota. My average

37:16

man Dakota. Yeah like

37:18

average and everything except for

37:20

how handsome he is. That's true.

37:22

I just imagine him being someone

37:25

who would be very good at

37:27

like taking charge of the

37:29

actual like community part of

37:31

it, like the leading community

37:33

projects part of it. And I

37:35

think that having that sense

37:37

of direction and like yes,

37:39

like something to do at a at

37:41

this point. Very good for him. He

37:43

is we haven't seen a lot of

37:45

of like him reacting to sort of

37:47

like Hellstone weirdness but like I mean

37:50

he was trapped for months in an

37:52

alternate dimension that he got sent

37:54

to by like a Hellstone machine.

37:56

This could be like that was a

37:58

profoundly traumatizing experience

38:01

and this could be really really bad

38:03

for him and I think that having

38:05

a sense of direction and a

38:07

sense of purpose and being able

38:09

to do this work and have

38:11

something really really concrete to like

38:13

put himself into is really really

38:15

is I was just really helpful but

38:18

it's exactly what I just said

38:20

about Philip but it is right it's

38:22

like it's um you know I think it kind

38:24

of keeps him from from you

38:26

know spiraling And then the other

38:29

important thing is that, I mean,

38:31

Proverbs and Daniel, they're both

38:33

here. They sure are still. They sure

38:35

are both here. And I think

38:38

it is important that like

38:40

Bartholomew would make a point to,

38:42

I mean, he'll be gentle with

38:44

Proverbs, they've been, they have a

38:46

big combo. We don't need to

38:49

like, we don't need to push

38:51

our good friend John any harder

38:53

than we've pushed. I mean, he

38:55

wouldn't like... overwhelm him

38:57

that he would definitely

38:59

make it clear that he

39:01

is obviously welcome and

39:04

still you know just because

39:06

he's not he's maybe not

39:08

Pope anymore right doesn't

39:10

mean that there are not other

39:13

ways that eventually if

39:15

he feels like he wants

39:17

to and can you know to be

39:19

a part of it right I don't

39:21

really know what would happen to me

39:23

or our other friend we haven't seen

39:26

in a long long time. You know

39:28

who I think I don't think Bartholomew

39:30

has to worry about that one.

39:32

Uh-huh. I think that like in

39:34

terms of like having something to

39:36

do and feeling like something that

39:38

they can do, I think that I

39:40

think Jose is willing to make some

39:42

some inroads there I think. Yeah. That's

39:45

perfect actually. I mean it would

39:47

make sense that... that he would be the

39:49

one. I think it's not that difficult,

39:51

right? Because Daniel had only

39:54

been a confessor for like weeks

39:56

when we first met them. It has

39:58

not been that long. Yeah. So I

40:00

think that that is also,

40:03

you know, there's the ability

40:05

for progress there for

40:08

sure. Okay, great. Can

40:10

I bring up one

40:12

other person that I'd

40:14

like to ask about? I

40:16

would love for you too.

40:19

habeas grace? Yeah. I

40:21

mean, habeas grace is

40:23

an ever-present shadow. I

40:26

think last we saw them they were

40:28

kind of warming up to this a

40:30

little bit. They were, they were. I

40:32

think, and I think they're definitely

40:35

there. Yeah. I think there's still,

40:37

at least a little bit of

40:39

weariness just because, I mean, there's

40:41

so many things that we never

40:44

got into that I have deepened

40:46

my soul because, you know, they

40:48

were my MPC that I had in my

40:50

head in my head and it's like. I'll

40:52

never have a conversation with

40:54

birth to all of you and habeas

40:56

grace. Like, make, honestly, maybe

40:58

there was, maybe there is

41:01

a conversation that happens, obviously,

41:03

that we never see, but like,

41:05

I do think at least a

41:07

little bit of skepticism still is

41:09

good, or a little bit of

41:11

weariness anyway is good, but yeah. I

41:13

don't know if it has to be like...

41:15

Out of its hostility, yes.

41:18

Yes. Okay. Anything else. You feel

41:20

like we've covered it. I think

41:22

I think we've hit everything I

41:24

was thinking about. Was there, I

41:26

interrupted you before you were going to

41:28

say one more thing, but maybe you got

41:31

to it since then. As all of this

41:33

has settled down, I'm wondering if,

41:35

and I think that like we've seen

41:37

through these little vignettes here a

41:39

couple of people start to like

41:41

move beyond the boundaries of ruins

41:43

game and to figure out how to

41:45

do that, right? Getting coroner here,

41:48

you know, things like that. Is Bartholomew

41:50

making any effort to reach out to other

41:52

churches nearby and to try to maybe like,

41:54

you know, this is not going to be a

41:56

huge influence and it's not going to

41:58

happen all at once? but to start

42:01

to make inroads in terms

42:03

of the sort of wider

42:05

church on and Taras? Or

42:07

is it for now, it's

42:09

like, let's just focus on

42:11

ruins gate? No, no, no.

42:13

I think he's still thinking

42:15

about that too. I mean,

42:17

he, even before this happened,

42:19

like, you know, he sent

42:21

Jeremiah that letter to hopefully

42:23

get her to kind of

42:25

spread things around. Yeah. Obviously

42:27

the focus is on here

42:29

and now. Because also if

42:31

you have something strong here,

42:33

like eventually when things do...

42:35

Right. Hopefully. Maybe he would

42:37

be hopeful that they would

42:39

one day have connections to

42:41

other parts of Antaras again.

42:43

You know, that makes it

42:45

a little bit easier. But

42:48

I think that he he

42:50

wouldn't just completely... I mean,

42:52

he has to at least,

42:54

at least... attempt. Right. And

42:56

I don't know what that

42:58

is, like, you know, maybe

43:00

it's trying to send... I

43:02

mean, I don't know. I

43:04

don't know what the state

43:06

of getting... I mean, he,

43:08

no, he has freaking ravens.

43:10

What are I talking about?

43:12

Oh, yeah, he can get

43:14

messages anywhere. Yeah, he sends

43:16

out, he probably sends out

43:18

letters. Okay. He probably also

43:20

like encourages other people to

43:22

do That he's gonna be

43:24

right he's the new mail

43:26

Sorry Jay Andrew and I

43:28

literally talked about like the

43:30

mail doesn't really have anything

43:32

to do right now. There's

43:34

no like mail out of

43:36

town of like what express

43:38

I guess is defunct I'm

43:40

the new mail So,