0:03

Ruby. It takes a lot of

0:06

things to start a small

0:08

business. You need a great

0:10

idea, you need drive,

0:12

you need determination. Sometimes

0:14

you need a great

0:17

partner, many times a

0:19

great product. But you

0:21

always, no matter what,

0:23

need cash. When Zara Hargin's

0:26

ILEF launched her company, Vessel,

0:28

she had all of that. Except

0:30

the cash. It's not like she

0:33

didn't try. She took vessel all

0:35

over, looking for someone to believe

0:37

in her vision. But the answer

0:40

was always the same. Well, go

0:42

sell some. Let us know how

0:44

it went. And that's successful. We'll

0:46

come back and maybe fund you

0:48

later on. Well, when you're building

0:50

a small business, you need the money

0:52

now. I was shocked. But somewhere

0:54

between the fifth and the tenth

0:56

rejection, it was like, ah, yeah,

0:58

this is not going to work.

1:00

It was very defeating and I was

1:02

taking a lot of blows. But Zara

1:04

had to make it work. I

1:06

got really frustrated. And then I

1:09

was just something where my head

1:11

goes, F it, you're going it

1:13

alone. We're just going to go for

1:15

it. On today's episode, how she did

1:17

it. Welcome

1:25

to The Unshakables from Chase for

1:27

Business and Ruby Studio from I

1:29

Heart Media. I'm Ben Walter, CEO

1:31

of Chase for Business. On The

1:33

Unshakables, we're sharing the daring moments

1:35

of small business owners facing their

1:37

crisis points and telling the stories

1:39

of how they got through it.

1:41

We'll hear more from Zara, but

1:43

I'd like to welcome Kathleen Griffith

1:45

back to the Unshakables. Hey Kathleen

1:47

how are you welcome back so glad

1:50

to be back in the studio with

1:52

you and back in New York back

1:54

in New York my old stomping grounds

1:56

I love it here I love the

1:58

electricity of this city the culture, all

2:00

the small businesses. You can have three

2:03

pizza places on one block. Each says they're

2:05

better than the next. It's just there's nothing

2:07

better than the big apple. You know, I

2:09

live here and I really, I just don't

2:11

eat enough pizza because I'm trying to watch

2:13

it. There's one around the corner from my

2:15

office and I smell it. I'm just like,

2:18

what am I doing? We can make that

2:20

happen Ben. I'm down for that later, but

2:22

first, we have another terrific story I

2:24

want to share with you today.

2:26

It's about Vessel, which is a

2:28

company that makes batteries of all

2:31

things. Batteries are huge as

2:33

a category. You know, I

2:35

just came across this report

2:37

from Bain and Company that

2:39

it's expected to quadruble

2:41

by 2030. Sounds like

2:43

she's an excellent company

2:45

then, so I won't

2:47

keep you from the story any

2:50

longer. On today's episode, Vessel

2:52

from St. Paul, Minnesota.

2:54

We've had past guests who

2:57

are farmers, designers, retailers, stockmakers,

2:59

and concern parents, but

3:01

Zara is, above everything else, someone

3:03

who loves to make things. I come

3:06

from a construction background. It has always

3:08

been my personal philosophy that if we

3:10

are going to build something, not to

3:13

make waste of time or materials. So

3:15

if there's materials there that can be

3:17

reused, let's use them, but if we

3:20

are going to be using... New materials,

3:22

let's care about where it's sourced, let's

3:24

care about if it's durable, renewable, and

3:27

before thinking about how at the end

3:29

of the life of this building or

3:31

home, how is this going to like

3:34

fade out or be replaced? Let's be

3:36

very conscious about that and almost like

3:38

pre-build for what we can see in

3:40

the future. Not only is she a

3:43

builder, she's an incredibly thoughtful builder.

3:45

It's not enough to make sure everything

3:47

looks great, it has to be functional

3:49

and beautifully so in every aspect. She

3:51

talks about the mechanical or the

3:54

electrical, the behind-the-scenes elements of a house

3:56

as the thing that makes the house

3:58

live and operate. When I walk

4:01

into mechanic rooms, they're so beautiful

4:03

and like all the stuff is

4:05

tied in wonderfully. It's like that

4:07

movie Pulp Fiction where they opened

4:09

up the briefcase and like light

4:11

just shines. And the pinnacle of

4:13

that to me is energy. And

4:15

for Zara, that means clean energy.

4:17

Because in a complete clean energy

4:19

system, you generate the energy. You

4:21

store it, and then you can

4:23

use it. So an example is,

4:25

like, let's say you had rooftop

4:27

solar, you're generating that energy, and

4:29

you can trickle off that energy

4:31

into you, the batteries, and they

4:33

can load up and store. You've

4:35

now basically made your own microgrid,

4:37

and that is the future of

4:39

the clean energy transition, is that

4:41

we're going to be generating using

4:43

power closer to our homes and

4:45

buildings. You just one day woke

4:47

up and said, I'm going to

4:49

start a company. I can't have

4:51

been that simple. No, it was

4:53

not that simple. I wish there

4:55

was a day where like the

4:57

confetti went off and the lights

4:59

all illuminated and I go, that's

5:01

it. It was it. It was

5:03

more of a incremental advancement. It

5:05

just seemed to be something that

5:07

I was reading about, wanted to

5:09

research more, wanted to see more

5:11

of it, something that you just

5:13

cannot let it go. Strangely enough

5:15

for me, that was batteries. And

5:17

it sounds very strange. Zara wasn't

5:19

totally unfamiliar with large-scale battery use

5:21

before she started vessel. She started

5:23

thinking about this in 2020. Her

5:25

partner was working for Tesla at

5:27

the time in the Energy Department.

5:29

So in our free time, we

5:31

literally talk about the areas of

5:34

our interest and what can we

5:36

build, because that gives me great

5:38

joy to build things. So we

5:40

were looking at building infrastructure with

5:42

EV chargers. Talked about it, planned

5:44

for it, penciled it, but it

5:46

didn't keep my interest. looked at

5:48

other things in the clean energy

5:50

space and batteries, I just couldn't

5:52

let it go and I couldn't

5:54

stop thinking about it. It seemed

5:56

like I'd already subconsciously accepted that's

5:58

what I was going to do.

6:00

And the pandemic was an amazing

6:02

time to have the open space

6:04

and freedom. So it's literally just

6:06

sitting in the living room floor

6:08

with articles and like papers and

6:10

white papers. And then up on

6:12

my laptop is this other research

6:14

paper I'm reading and just understanding

6:16

what it is and a lot

6:18

of conversations. And then we get

6:20

to play with and test with

6:22

batteries. And specifically lithium iron phosphate

6:24

batteries. They're more stable, safer, and

6:26

longer lasting than traditional lithium ion

6:28

batteries. And they're already in use

6:30

for mass energy deployment in other

6:32

parts of the world. This is

6:34

not a brand new technology. In

6:36

other places in the world, this

6:38

technology has existed for a decade,

6:40

which is very good for us

6:42

because as we grow and make

6:44

this transition, we can look at

6:46

the materials and the data that

6:48

has been existing in other parts

6:50

of the world and incorporate that

6:52

and learn from that. So how

6:54

did you go from an idea

6:56

that I want to do commercial

6:58

batteries to, okay, I've got a

7:00

business plan and I've got a

7:02

product design and I've got whatever

7:04

else you needed? Yep, yeah. Started

7:06

to put together the prototype. Yeah.

7:08

That I bootstrapped with my own

7:10

funds. Just on your own, like

7:12

literally working at home, you designed

7:14

a battery? Yes. They're in my

7:17

garage. Thank goodness they came out

7:19

of my garage because that got

7:21

really difficult in winter. Of course

7:23

it's freezing winters here. It gets

7:25

so cold. And batteries, by the

7:27

way, do not really like too

7:29

hot or too cold. Zara found

7:31

space in a university lab where

7:33

she could run research and development

7:35

for vessel. My favorite electrical engineer

7:37

came and we put stuff together

7:39

and we started testing things and

7:41

we powered a lamp and then

7:43

we would just bring things into

7:45

test and like how long can

7:47

these batteries go and how long

7:49

can they run little appliances? And

7:51

we took those calculations and then

7:53

you scale it and sent it

7:55

over for safety testing. really important.

7:57

Now of course when I hear

7:59

lab I imagine a mad scientist

8:01

with sparks flying lots of little

8:03

plumes of smoke so I had

8:05

to ask if there had ever

8:07

been any explosions. Yes, yes. Do

8:09

you know in my industry though

8:11

we don't use that word we

8:13

used the term thermal event. Soon

8:15

Zara had a prototype of her

8:17

battery. It was definitely a bit

8:19

larger than a Dura cell. This

8:21

prototype is about 350 pounds, so

8:23

that's fun. You know, like the

8:25

old style box TVs. They're that

8:27

same size. The prototype is pretty

8:29

big. And it wasn't just the

8:31

batteries that were big. Some of

8:33

my competitors are kind of like

8:35

big boys. You know, they're the

8:37

Tesla and the LG. When I

8:39

decided to formally launch, I was

8:41

not scared. You were not scared.

8:43

I was so excited about it.

8:45

I wasn't scared. A lot of

8:47

companies in my space, my industry,

8:49

either play in the utility-grade space

8:51

really large projects, literally at the

8:53

power plant. Yep. Or... residential. And

8:55

I could see right away a

8:58

need. And just from talking to

9:00

solar installers, electricians, electrical engineers, who

9:02

would say, hey, I cannot source

9:04

this. So there was a space

9:06

there in commercial industrial that there's

9:08

a need that needs to be

9:10

met, and I'm meeting that need.

9:12

And she used, so I've got

9:14

a notebook here that says build

9:16

on the front of it, she

9:18

must have used that word a

9:20

hundred times, and the way that

9:22

I define a builder is someone

9:24

who has a vision, who intentionally

9:26

steps into realizing that vision on

9:28

a daily basis, and she's an

9:30

actual builder. She's a legit, real

9:32

deal builder. It's pretty neat. I

9:34

mean, it's clear that she was

9:36

able to find the intersection of

9:38

a number of passions, right? She's

9:40

passionate about sustainability, she's passionate about

9:42

building stuff. she's been able to

9:44

put a bunch of passions together

9:46

in a unique way. Yeah. Can

9:48

we talk a little bit about

9:50

internal belief? Because she strikes me

9:52

as delusionally optimistic. There's that great

9:54

saying you're only crazy until you

9:56

do it. Yep. And she is

9:58

attacking this massive category. She seems

10:00

completely undeterred and totally optimistic about

10:02

it. So do you think that

10:04

is... a necessary trait for a

10:06

founder to have? I do. What

10:08

was different about Zara's approach is

10:10

most of the people I meet

10:12

who have what you're saying, have

10:14

this insane belief that they can

10:16

conquer. They tend to be overwhelming

10:18

personalities. And Zara's not. She's lovely.

10:20

I would say she's on the

10:22

introverted side. Calm cool and collected.

10:24

Understated. And so she kind of

10:26

strikes me as... a bit of

10:28

an entrepreneurial assassin, like she's quietly

10:30

patting around just killing it and

10:32

no one even noticed. Right. I'm

10:34

really on the same page with

10:36

you. Like I think optimism, having

10:39

this self-belief, this internal belief that

10:41

you are going to forcibly push

10:43

something into the world that is

10:45

just in your mind's eye, what

10:47

that requires is... just a tremendous

10:49

amount of belief in oneself. I

10:51

want to talk more about this

10:53

mindset later, which, spoiler, I do

10:55

think is Zara's secret sauce. But

10:57

let's get back to the story.

10:59

So you formed the company, you

11:01

and your co-founder are working in

11:03

this lab, you're coming up with

11:05

designs, you're collaborating with people, and

11:07

then you decide, okay, if we

11:09

really want to do this, we

11:11

got to go get some cash.

11:13

We gotta get some cash. So

11:15

I took my pitch deck, took

11:17

my business plan, and I hit

11:19

the circuit. The VC circuit. And

11:21

you got tons of money right

11:23

away overnight. Sure. Not a dime.

11:25

Not a dime. done. No, I

11:27

tried. I figured that, okay, I'm

11:29

going to go get BC money.

11:31

I'm going to be able to

11:33

buy a bunch of materials and

11:35

engineering help and just like go

11:37

at it and then quickly learned

11:39

that that was not going to

11:41

happen for me and for a

11:43

vessel. And the frustrating part for

11:45

me was that I struggled getting

11:47

good feedback. I wanted to know

11:49

why, like what was going on,

11:51

what didn't you, like, and I

11:53

was assuming that I would get

11:55

that feedback and then I can

11:57

make adjustments and then, you know,

11:59

go for the next, onto the

12:01

next VC and got none of

12:03

that. Now granted, a lot of

12:05

this was during the pandemic. I

12:07

don't think that one time did

12:09

I pitch in person. Did you

12:11

know why at the time? And

12:13

if not, do you know why

12:15

now? I do not have any

12:17

hindsight on it. I was told

12:19

that, hey... This looks really interesting.

12:22

Come back to me when you

12:24

have some sales. That was the

12:26

common feedback, which wasn't, you know.

12:28

Right. Yeah, they wanted proven product

12:30

market fit and you wanted money

12:32

to prove product market fit. So

12:34

then I started. Okay. We got

12:36

to find something else. I got

12:38

to do something else. So, you

12:40

know, scoured sites and like, how

12:42

can I get a hold of

12:44

money to help me buy more

12:46

materials and can I start demonstration

12:48

projects and and then at the

12:50

same time really worked my networking

12:52

and then you've got to say,

12:54

okay, this is not working. I

12:56

have to pivot. How many knows

12:58

do you think you got? I

13:00

know it's not going to sound

13:02

a lot because I hear people

13:04

like do it a hundred times,

13:06

a 30-something. That was enough for

13:08

me though. Because it is extremely

13:10

time-consuming. I've got to go back

13:12

to my product. I've got to

13:14

go back to my company. I

13:16

can't keep doing this. Right. It's

13:18

not like you're making a salary

13:20

in the meantime. You've got to

13:22

go do something. Exactly. And then

13:24

also, you're not working on your

13:26

business during that time. Yeah. You're

13:28

solely trying to raise money. I

13:30

was very surprised I couldn't raise

13:32

money. I was very shocked. an

13:34

innovation grant that the state of

13:36

Minnesota was funding. And unlike the

13:38

VC, she pitched to, Minnesota saw

13:40

potential in her. Very sweet. I

13:42

was so excited about it. It

13:44

was great. And that grant turned

13:46

out to be a nice idea,

13:48

but completely unhelpful. Zara had been

13:50

awarded a matching grant. So you

13:52

have to spend the money, and

13:54

then they will reimburse you. It

13:56

was $48,000. I was bootstrapping it

13:58

and I spent a lot of

14:00

money on materials already and things

14:03

were really tight with cash flow.

14:05

So the problem with that is

14:07

that, first of all, it's not

14:09

like a cash grant where they

14:11

just give it to you and

14:13

you take the money you go

14:15

and spend it. You have to

14:17

have the capital to spend it.

14:19

So I have to make a

14:21

decision. You know, let's say, do

14:23

I spend 10,000 on a new

14:25

website and new branding? Or do

14:27

I buy materials and engineering time?

14:29

I know those figures sound so

14:31

low, but when you are a

14:33

start-up business and you are scraping

14:35

for every dollar, and I only

14:37

have an X amount of money,

14:39

another parameter around that grant was

14:41

that they wanted to use the

14:43

money within the state of Minnesota.

14:45

So all materials and contractors had

14:47

to be in Minnesota, but my

14:49

materials aren't made here, and they're

14:51

made overseas, unfortunately. which is do

14:53

not make battery cells in the

14:55

United States. So I actually had

14:57

to give back a significant amount

14:59

of the grant that I received,

15:01

about $17,000, because I couldn't spend

15:03

it, because I didn't have the

15:05

money up front. It was very

15:07

defeating, and I was also during

15:09

the time where I was really

15:11

hitting my head against the wall

15:13

with raising money. It was really

15:15

like I was taking a lot

15:17

of blows. And then I got

15:19

really frustrated, and something in my

15:21

head goes, effort, effort. You're going

15:23

it alone. We're just going to

15:25

go for it. And we're going

15:27

to get really scrappy and we're

15:29

going to keep applying for things.

15:31

Did that leave you low on

15:33

cash? Yes, yeah, yeah, it did.

15:35

It did at that time. I

15:37

haven't. met too many women working

15:39

in the clean energy space. Are

15:41

there a lot? No. Not a

15:43

lot. But I'm kind of used

15:46

to that because there weren't a

15:48

lot in construction. Do you think

15:50

being a woman ever affected your

15:52

ability to raise money, to make

15:54

sales? Do you think it's a

15:56

factor or not? I always wonder.

15:58

I wonder that too. Because no

16:00

one ever tells you. You get

16:02

like a kind of inkling if

16:04

I would show up and look

16:06

a different way. I found this

16:08

in construction. It is having to

16:10

explain to people that I can

16:12

do this. I get asked a

16:14

lot. Are you an engineer? I

16:16

said, no, I'm not an engineer,

16:18

but I work very closely in

16:20

a higher engineer. Are you a

16:22

professor? No, I'm not a professor.

16:24

I work very closely as I'm

16:26

universities. I feel like I am

16:28

asked to explain myself when I

16:30

feel like there's other people in

16:32

the room that don't have to

16:34

explain themselves. They don't have to

16:36

take the five minutes to be

16:38

like, how did you get here?

16:40

So I don't know if it's

16:42

that or being a woman or

16:44

it could be both. I don't

16:46

know. I actually don't care. That

16:48

stuff doesn't scare me. It's just

16:50

disappointing. It will slightly make me

16:52

concerned. It's like, am I not

16:54

going to have enough people that

16:56

are brave and are just going

16:58

to go with the status quo

17:00

because it makes it feel safe?

17:02

Or is this? Because I can't

17:04

get in unless I'm let in.

17:06

Did you ever think about giving

17:08

up? No, I just got a

17:10

little bit angry. When you run

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18:23

I want to pause for a

18:25

moment, and I think we need

18:27

to talk about a few of

18:29

these things. Since I'm in finance,

18:31

I have to focus on this

18:33

a little bit. I thought it

18:35

was fascinating. The pivot she was

18:37

able to do. for a capital-intensive

18:39

business to find ways to bootstrap

18:41

it up. You really don't hear

18:43

a lot of that. And we

18:45

talk a lot about sourcing capital

18:47

on this show. It's a very

18:49

personal decision for a business owner,

18:51

but in some cases, it's just

18:53

not a choice. She did what

18:55

she had to do. Venture capital

18:57

is interesting because people always think

18:59

to go there first. And someone

19:01

said something great, which is like,

19:03

venture capital is like you go

19:05

on one date. and you decide

19:07

to get married and you can

19:10

never get divorced again. That's a

19:12

good analogy. And she talked about

19:14

that, right? Like 30 some odd

19:16

pitches. Do you think she should

19:18

go back to venture? I think

19:20

it depends. So one of the

19:22

things I always advise entrepreneurs is,

19:24

what are you trying to achieve

19:26

from a business perspective, but what

19:28

are you also trying to achieve

19:30

financially? Because some people just want

19:32

to build a business that can

19:34

earn them a nice living and

19:36

they can do what they love.

19:38

I'm for that, if that's what

19:40

you want. If she's trying to

19:42

build something that disrupts the entire

19:44

industry, she's gonna have to go

19:46

raise capital. because she'll never scale

19:48

enough. Right. Let's dig in on

19:50

that a little bit more because

19:52

when I think about our culture,

19:54

one of the things that sprang

19:56

to mind is you are saying

19:58

that we're so obsessed with these

20:00

big businesses, right, scaling to this

20:02

huge place, the unicorns. So do

20:04

you think that's part of it

20:06

where people have a hard time

20:08

also just admitting that that's not

20:10

the game they're in? Social influences

20:12

in general have been turned up

20:14

to volume 12, right? You know,

20:16

this is what you're supposed to

20:18

want. Now, what do you want?

20:20

Right. Let's all embrace that today.

20:22

Let's get radically honest with ourselves

20:24

and embrace where we're at. There

20:26

are no rules, and you get

20:28

to be as selfish as you

20:30

want. One of the things that

20:32

particularly being in a corporate environment

20:34

or a business environment, we're taught

20:36

it's not about you, it's about

20:38

the customers, it's about the company,

20:40

it's about your teammates, it's about

20:42

your employees, it's about your shareholders,

20:44

that's all true once you're running

20:46

a business. But when you're deciding

20:48

what business you want to run

20:51

and what business you want to

20:53

build, that can be the most

20:55

selfish decision ever. And it's fine.

20:57

You know, she was talking to...

20:59

She decided to then walk away

21:01

from raising capital formally. I was

21:03

thinking about Melanie Perkins, you know,

21:05

the founder of Canva, which is

21:07

a great small business, and she

21:09

got a hundred nose, and she

21:11

was undeterred. She just kept pitching

21:13

and pitching, and now I think

21:15

her company's 40, 50 billion dollars

21:17

is the valuation, something like that.

21:19

For our sports fans out there,

21:21

it's a low batting average, high

21:23

at bats game. To get into

21:25

the Hall fame, you need like

21:27

a 30% batting average. Yeah, when

21:29

Baybroughth broke the home run record,

21:31

he was also the leader in

21:33

strikeouts. But how do you know

21:35

when you're hearing no for the

21:37

right reasons or the wrong reasons?

21:39

Like, is it time to pivot

21:41

and change your pitch? Is it

21:43

not me it's you or it's

21:45

actually me or how does that

21:47

be? How do we think about

21:49

that? Well, yeah, I think you

21:51

do need to take a step

21:53

back and clearly it is you

21:55

at a certain point and you

21:57

need to recalibrillate. She could have

21:59

done better, maybe three, without knowing

22:01

her mindset intimately well. The first

22:03

is to negotiate life. She said

22:05

she did all of her negotiations

22:07

remotely. Pandemic. I know, and it

22:09

put her in a very difficult

22:11

position, but you've got to be

22:13

in the room. You have got

22:15

to find a way to be

22:17

in the room. So that's the

22:19

first. The second is, I would

22:21

say, to welcome awkward negotiations. Make

22:23

an ask. And then let it

22:25

hang. awkwardly in the air. Just

22:27

allow that pause to hang out

22:29

there. Okay. Awkward pause. I was

22:32

waiting. That's it. That's it. So

22:34

what's the advantage of the pause?

22:36

Because you'll start backing off if

22:38

you don't? Exactly. So you tend

22:40

to shift your position. You'll take

22:42

your number down. You'll start giving

22:44

all these caveats that make you

22:46

seem less strong and sure-footed in

22:48

your position. Okay. And three. Yeah,

22:50

so this is mindset. So this

22:52

is to just identify as someone

22:54

who's filthy rich This was like

22:56

actually a major aha for me

22:58

because I always saw everyone else

23:00

when I was walking into these

23:02

rooms as They're the rich people

23:04

and I'm here to get money

23:06

Okay, and so when that shifted

23:08

when I just started to see

23:10

myself as a filthy rich woman

23:12

who maybe at the time didn't

23:14

have a huge bank account But

23:16

that's how I was going to

23:18

start to move through the world

23:20

My bank account did change dramatically,

23:22

so that might be woo-woo, but

23:24

try it on for size. Woo

23:26

or not, mindset really is key

23:28

to so much of what we

23:30

do. Okay, so back to Zara's

23:32

story, because her mindset at that

23:34

moment, well, it was a little

23:36

bit angry. But there was no

23:38

chance she was going to give

23:40

up on vessel. It's

23:42

absolutely not an option. Not one

23:44

is such a great idea and

23:47

I know the future of it

23:49

and I cannot let go. I

23:51

just, I can't let go. Whenever

23:53

I got really angry there are

23:55

occasional times I'd go outside outside

23:58

of the loading dock and scream

24:00

into the air. So that was

24:02

helpful, but also... recite this speech

24:04

that I would be giving in

24:06

the future sometime. A spite speech,

24:09

I called it. Say more about

24:11

that. Okay, so I have a

24:13

spite speech in my head. I've

24:15

listed all of the people who

24:17

have told me no and don't

24:20

believe in me. And I would

24:22

recite this thing in my head

24:24

for some reason that made me

24:26

feel better and helped with being

24:29

like, okay. It'll be fine. Have

24:31

some resilience. It'll be okay. Keep

24:33

marching. That might be the coolest

24:35

entrepreneurial coping mechanism I have ever

24:37

heard in my life. My spite

24:40

speech. It's such a good mechanism

24:42

in fact that the team here

24:44

at the Unshakable has unanimously decided

24:46

that the award for Best Entrepreneurial

24:48

Coping Mechanism goes to Zara Hargens

24:51

Island. Zara, the floor is yours

24:53

for your speech. Okay, so I'm

24:55

at the podium. I've got my

24:57

evening gown on. I'm looking at

24:59

the people in the audience and

25:02

I say, Wilber. Do you remember

25:04

that when I pitched to you

25:06

at your VC equity firm, you

25:08

did not call me back, you

25:10

said you would respond to me,

25:13

give me feedback, and you didn't,

25:15

and then you just basically wrote

25:17

me an email that said N-O,

25:19

period. Look at me now, my

25:21

company makes a lot of money,

25:24

and thank you, no, thank you.

25:26

And Franklin, you did not believe

25:28

in me. You couldn't kind of

25:30

wrap your head around that I

25:33

was not a scientist and that

25:35

was not an engineer and you

25:37

had no faith. And at one

25:39

point you actually called my product

25:41

imaginary magic. And it wasn't going

25:44

to work the way I thought

25:46

it was. And you had absolutely

25:48

no faith in me. And so

25:50

look at me now. That's fantastic.

25:54

Okay, so then at some point you

25:57

broke through, right? So take me from

25:59

the... Grant had just fallen apart. You're

26:01

low on cash. You're giving a spite

26:04

speech. But at some point, something gives,

26:06

right? Yeah. I started making money from

26:08

revenue. And one of my first jobs,

26:11

fully paying energy storage projects, was at

26:13

the Ketchil-Dhi Tribal Lands in Kaloosa, California.

26:15

And you know, there is quite a

26:17

number of tribal lands that have invested

26:20

and really taken an innovative approach to

26:22

clean energy. On tribal lands, they have

26:24

52 homes, a casino, hotels, common buildings,

26:27

all run off of clean energy. Okay.

26:29

Completely free of utility power. It's amazing.

26:31

How did you make that sale? I

26:33

made that sale through networking. Okay. And

26:36

by the way, I did an exercise

26:38

with my business consultant not so long

26:40

ago where we looked at... completed projects

26:43

recently, and little over 90% of them

26:45

were for referral-based networking. That's fantastic. So

26:47

how many of these systems have you

26:50

now put in? I have over a

26:52

dozen systems in, and we've got a

26:54

lot of work in the pipeline. Because

26:56

of the scale of our projects, our

26:59

lead times are quite significant. Yeah, it's

27:01

got to be a long sale cycle,

27:03

right? Yeah. 12, 18 months. And then

27:06

a long production cycle for some of

27:08

these. Actually, a production cycle is not

27:10

that bad. I am concerned about manufacturing.

27:12

I am concerned about supply chain, since

27:15

there is parts of my battery modules

27:17

that are coming from overseas. The more

27:19

people I talk to, they're understanding what

27:22

it is, so it's not such an

27:24

educational effort. People are understanding these systems

27:26

more and more. So we're definitely in

27:28

the growth phase. Now I'm going the

27:31

more traditional financing route with banks for

27:33

growth. Right. So now that you've... proving

27:35

the market works, you can go for

27:38

debt financing instead of equity financing. Yeah,

27:40

I want to see how far this

27:42

goes. All I know, we're in an

27:45

energy transition. We can't feel it. Like

27:47

when you're in a transition, you don't

27:49

understand sometimes you can't see it that

27:51

you're in the middle of it, but

27:54

we're in the middle of it. So

27:56

if you could wave a magic wand,

27:58

what do you hope for vessel in

28:01

the next year? more projects, more projects,

28:03

more projects, and I just would love

28:05

to continue to be in the space

28:07

of working with tribal entities for helping

28:10

the lands become free energy, sovereign, independent

28:12

systems. That work is so just heartwarming.

28:14

I love it so much. I hope

28:17

and I will be getting involved in

28:19

more of those projects. It's very exciting.

28:21

I'd like to end on a question

28:24

that we ask all of our guests

28:26

on the show, which is if you

28:28

had just one piece of advice that

28:30

you could give to our listeners who

28:33

are largely entrepreneurs and aspiring business owners,

28:35

what would that piece of advice be?

28:37

Can I give two? I'll let you

28:40

cheat, don't worry. Okay, thanks. First, I

28:42

would say when you're starting your business,

28:44

immediately go get some type of counseling,

28:46

therapy, mentorship. So much of this business

28:49

building and resilience and dedication is going

28:51

to have to do a lot with

28:53

your mental state and your mental health.

28:56

So a lot of it is like

28:58

keeping that sharp, keeping that clear. That

29:00

would be my number one advice. My

29:03

second bit of advice would be... I'm

29:05

four plus years in, every six weeks

29:07

or so I go back to my

29:09

business plan and I tweak it. I

29:12

found that exercise just to be fantastic

29:14

and it changes so much and it

29:16

tells you that your pivots are working

29:19

or they're not working because whatever you

29:21

intended to do in the beginning is

29:23

probably not what you're doing now. It's

29:25

great advice. Well, Zara, I just can't

29:28

thank you enough for being on the

29:30

show. This has been so fun. Yeah.

29:32

I love your story. We're all inspired

29:35

by it. So thank you for being

29:37

here with us today. Oh, that's so

29:39

sweet. Thank you for having me. I

29:41

feel so honored. The most interesting thing

29:44

for me in the whole thing was

29:46

the advice that she gave at the

29:48

end, which I would combine with her

29:51

spite speech and everything else, was she

29:53

understood better than many people I've seen

29:55

how mental this thing is. And how

29:58

much of this is about the mental

30:00

clarity, the focus, and the drive, and

30:02

the fact that having that mental clarity

30:04

and focus is you can't pull those

30:07

things apart. They all go together. It's

30:09

everything and most founders start focused on

30:11

skill set, right? You learn the hardcore

30:14

skills, sales, financials, marketing, pitching, brand strategy,

30:16

right, customer service, you name it, and

30:18

then they try to build their mindset

30:20

off the back of that. they're trying

30:23

to kind of cobble it on top.

30:25

And I think for anyone who's listening

30:27

right now, if you're starting a business

30:30

for the first time to be able

30:32

to focus on your mindset first as

30:34

the foundation, realizing what those foundational practices

30:37

need to be, so you've got a

30:39

vision and you know how to take

30:41

care of yourself, how to practice good

30:43

self-care, all of those things to be

30:46

able to go the distance, you're building

30:48

a very different sort of business like

30:50

that, right? Yeah, it's a completely different

30:53

approach than we've heard from other guests

30:55

and I thought it was refreshing and

30:57

interesting. I also want to spend a

30:59

little bit of time on her second

31:02

piece of advice because we had another

31:04

guest on Kathleen who said, I wrote

31:06

my business plan and it is my

31:09

rock and it doesn't change and I

31:11

go back to it and it's my

31:13

Bible. And then we got very different

31:16

advice from Zara who said I have

31:18

a business plan and I updated every

31:20

six weeks because the world changes. Where

31:22

do you come down? You don't hear

31:25

that often. She's shifted, right? So initially

31:27

she's coming in, she's thinking venture capital,

31:29

she has plans to scale pretty sizeably,

31:32

and that's shifted a bit, where she's

31:34

really bootstrapping. So it makes sense to

31:36

reevaluate. How many women small business owners

31:38

have you mentored? A lot, and we've

31:41

got now. close to I think 100,000

31:43

women in our community who are all

31:45

small business owners. We talked to Zara

31:48

about being a woman, particularly in a

31:50

STEM field, in an engineering field, which

31:52

is not the most female dense. How

31:54

should people think about being outliers in

31:57

their field? You know, women is one

31:59

case, could be minorities, could be people

32:01

from other countries, could be whatever, but

32:04

you know, let's focus on women in

32:06

this case. Is there a way to

32:08

turn what can be perceived as a

32:11

disadvantage into an advantage? I mean, I

32:13

see being a founder as your number

32:15

one power tool is you stepping into

32:17

the limelight, is you owning your personal

32:20

brand irrespective of what category you're in,

32:22

then it becomes... really doubly powerful when

32:24

you are in a category that is

32:27

traditionally dominated by other people that are

32:29

not you. So as you mentioned STEM,

32:31

less than 30% of women are in

32:33

STEM currently, you know, so numbers are

32:36

still relatively anemic. This to me feels

32:38

like just such a great opportunity for

32:40

her to be able to become a

32:43

voice in the space, a leader in

32:45

the space. But how do we deal

32:47

with the fact, I mean, when she

32:50

says I had to justify myself in

32:52

a way that I've never seen a

32:54

man have to justify himself, have to

32:56

justify himself? That's got to be tough.

32:59

Yes, and in this might be a

33:01

controversial point of view, but I don't

33:03

think focusing or fixating on that is

33:06

helpful at a certain point. When you

33:08

just wholly own the uniqueness of who

33:10

and what you are as a founder

33:12

and the fact that normally as a

33:15

founder, you are an extension of your

33:17

business too, right? It's one and the

33:19

same. That's when you start to become

33:22

really undeniable. Well, and Zara seemed particularly

33:24

unflappable about the whole thing. That's right.

33:26

So I think she'll be fine. I'm

33:29

blown away by Zara's story and I

33:31

think there's some really good lessons for

33:33

everyone in there. So Kathleen, I can't

33:35

thank you enough for being back on

33:38

the show and helping us pick that

33:40

apart. Yeah, thanks for having me. Unpacking

33:42

that one was really good fun. You

33:45

know I've got a special place in

33:47

my heart for female founders, so this

33:49

one was particularly great. more.

33:51

Thanks for being here.

33:54

here. Thanks so much for listening to

33:56

this episode of so much

33:58

for listening to

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