0:00

We're a group that embraces allyship

0:02

in advocacy, but we also

0:05

want to say those terms

0:07

may not be enough. Allyship can

0:09

be passive, allyship could be buying

0:12

a button. Allyship could be holding

0:14

a premise in your heart but not

0:16

acting upon it. And so there's

0:18

something where allyship gets to be

0:21

a self-defined and monitored

0:24

in many instances. But

0:26

what our profession is seeking,

0:28

are accomplices.

0:32

Hola, Hola! It's

0:35

Gaby Acosta.

0:36

And me. Jenelle Acosta. We're high

0:38

school sweethearts on a journey to be better allies.

0:42

You're listening to the way we lead. We

0:45

talk about inclusive leadership, allyship

0:47

and advocacy with folks across identities,

0:49

industries and experiences.

0:52

If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow

0:54

us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter

0:56

using the handle @thewaywelead.

0:57

We're glad

1:00

you're here. Let's jump in

1:04

Because we're talking to so many great people from

1:06

all across the country. We have to meet

1:08

online, which means that sound quality

1:10

might not always be perfect.

1:12

My name is

1:16

Marie Bigham. I live in New

1:18

Orleans, Louisiana and I've had the privilege

1:20

of living all over the United

1:23

States. Um, my background is

1:25

I worked for 20 plus years

1:27

in college admissions before starting

1:29

ACCEPT, which is a social justice

1:32

group for professionals in the admissions

1:35

college admissions space. Um , and this

1:37

for professionals who seek to center antiracism,

1:40

equity, and justice in our work and in our practice.

1:43

And I'm Steve Frappier. I live in

1:45

Atlanta, Georgia. I'm a school counselor

1:47

there. Grew up mostly

1:50

in Montgomery, Alabama in Orlando, Florida.

1:53

And I met Marie , uh , 19

1:55

years ago. Uh, when we worked in the same

1:58

college admissions office at our Alma mater

2:01

in St Louis .

2:02

Can you guys tell us a little bit more about

2:05

what ACCEPT is ? What's your mission? What does, what

2:07

does your organization do?

2:09

Gosh, how do I even begin with, except we started

2:11

almost well just a little bit over three years

2:13

ago now. And the

2:16

community is based in Facebook in the Facebook

2:18

group that I started in the

2:21

middle of the night and feeling despair about the

2:23

world after a series of

2:25

shootings in the summer of 2016.

2:28

And it was one of those

2:31

moments where I said, you know, so

2:33

often when bad things happen in our world

2:35

and in our culture, there's that group of friends

2:37

that we text with to say, oh my gosh, this is

2:39

terrible. What do I do? What

2:41

do I do? And that energy dissipates. We get distracted

2:43

by the next thing. And that night I said, well, we can't do

2:45

that anymore. We actually have to do something. People

2:48

who work in college admissions in

2:50

whatever role, we have a special responsibility

2:52

fighting for justice. Because if we, if

2:55

we really believe that education is the best

2:57

path to socioeconomic opportunity

3:00

and mobility than those of us who are the gatekeepers,

3:03

we have more responsibility in fighting clear

3:05

that pathway. So starting

3:08

with this group kind of in the

3:10

middle of the night in a fit of anger and rage

3:12

and upset about feeling feudal

3:15

about this world, and I saw it was going

3:17

to be like, you know, 40 or 50

3:19

friends in this little corner of the Internet. Um

3:21

, and it's grown to almost 5,400

3:23

people now in three years. And

3:26

the last three years we've been building community and now

3:28

we're in our second phase where operationalizing

3:31

making this, this is my full time job now

3:34

and hopefully we will have four of us

3:36

on board by next year. And we're , we're really

3:38

starting to change the conversation

3:41

in college admissions and really center in anti-racism

3:43

and injustice as the critical component

3:46

of what we do.

3:47

And I didn't know if we've expanded the acronym

3:50

but ACCEPT stands for admissions

3:52

community cultivating equity

3:54

and peace today. And

3:57

um, there was just some deliberation about

4:00

the T even. Uh , and there

4:02

was initial a desire

4:04

for the t to stand for together and

4:07

immediately impatient with that saying,

4:10

well together hasn't gotten us very far,

4:13

you know. And so I wanted to

4:15

add the urgency to

4:17

the, the urgency of today versus

4:20

together. And a lot of it is

4:22

, uh, just stemming

4:24

from the root of when

4:27

we're in an era of thoughts

4:29

and prayers, but we

4:32

actually have an opportunity for

4:34

action. That's what we

4:36

were trying to

4:39

instill across our

4:41

profession. Just the signal that it's okay

4:44

to ask for more of us

4:46

individually and institutionally versus

4:49

just saying, well, that's just the way things are.

4:51

And to be able to bare influence on that

4:53

without really even knowing what we

4:56

were going to encounter or

4:58

invite in or butt

4:59

our heads against, but knowing

5:01

that it was just time to start doing.

5:06

I think that that's so interesting

5:08

to me. And one of the questions I have is, so

5:10

I work for an Ed tech company. I work actually

5:14

in for admissions through this company.

5:16

And when you think about

5:18

school shootings and what sort of was

5:20

the catalyst moment for you watching

5:22

these shootings happen and saying that, you know, you

5:25

were talking about you are in a sort of a fit

5:27

of rage and wanting to start this. I

5:29

don't necessarily go to , let's

5:31

, uh, let's use the admissions counselor

5:33

community to really drive

5:36

this conversation. Why admissions

5:38

counselors rather than say administrators in the University

5:39

system.

5:40

Sure. We'll

5:42

certainly like this. You know, this is my community.

5:44

The world of college admissions is my community.

5:46

And I started, you know, like Steve said,

5:48

we worked together at our alma matter

5:50

and I started in this community in 1997

5:53

, um, and just left a

5:55

month ago. But it's why

5:58

this, it's because it was our space and

6:00

I think something that I've learned that's been

6:02

an incredibly important lesson over the

6:05

years. Is that people are most effective when they are

6:08

influencing their immediate sphere, am

6:10

I in the line I always talk about, but it's so

6:12

true. I believe in my heart

6:14

that gerrymandering is the worst possible thing for

6:17

our democracy, but I have no idea how to fix

6:19

it. But more than that, I'm not in a space that can,

6:22

so what, what space do I occupy?

6:24

Where do I have the most influence and

6:27

how do we further justice

6:29

and equity in that space? So that's

6:31

why, to me, admissions made the most sense

6:33

because it's our community. Then when you really

6:35

drill into it and talk about the

6:37

ideals that we discuss in

6:40

about higher education, about that

6:42

pathway, about admissions, that

6:45

to me of all of the

6:47

spheres of influence I might be in or where

6:49

I could have a touch admissions

6:51

makes the most sense. It's where we could

6:53

change the culture quickly.

6:57

And I think to provide insight into

7:00

the role of admissions officers

7:02

and uh, and many of us , uh

7:04

, work as school counselors as well

7:06

or uh , and the , and there's some, some

7:09

permeability back and forth between those

7:12

work in school settings and those that may

7:14

be university administrators that

7:16

there's this passing of

7:18

students through different milestones.

7:21

And for those that are pursuing

7:24

education beyond a high school realm,

7:26

there's , um, a certain level

7:28

of resources or lack of them in whichever

7:30

high school they go to. Um, there's

7:33

, uh , different types of

7:35

knowledge that are , um, present

7:38

or absent depending on

7:40

a family's familiarity with navigating

7:42

an American , uh , let's say

7:44

four year college process.

7:47

And then how, what expectations

7:49

do those students have in it

7:51

? Not just being prepared for the academic

7:53

work, but entering the , the social climate

7:56

of a particular college. And

7:59

is that college prepared to

8:01

take care of that individual student

8:03

or a whole group of

8:05

students based on their backgrounds

8:08

and intersections. And what we've

8:10

observed over time is that admissions

8:13

can be great at marketing, can be

8:15

great or bad at let's say

8:17

need based financial aid, but

8:19

then the campus climate can be , uh

8:22

, completely , uh , negative

8:24

space for students to feel like they

8:26

belong and thrive and

8:29

so on paper. And there's

8:31

this sense of, Oh, you know, getting into the toughest

8:33

part and we see time and

8:35

again that , uh, perhaps in, enduring

8:39

a four year living learning community

8:41

where students feel that they have their authentic

8:44

selves , um , able to

8:46

learn is actually part

8:48

of the story. Why students may not persist.

8:52

Um , and then, and then who are the

8:54

people within our profession. So we

8:56

, we are active on behalf of

8:59

all students as they navigate a complicated

9:02

process for postsecondary education.

9:05

But those of us that are within this profession,

9:07

many offices are structured to

9:09

where there may be an

9:12

opportunity for lower level entry

9:15

of , for non white

9:17

males to be entering

9:20

the university administrative process.

9:23

And yet there's this unspoken ceiling

9:25

regarding promotions or opportunities.

9:29

Um, and , and, and that has certainly

9:31

, uh, melted away slightly but

9:33

, uh, by and large. Um,

9:36

our profession is hurting because there

9:38

are a lot of talented folks that

9:40

are not, not really attended

9:42

to. And then they move on to other

9:44

things. And I think there's the risk of

9:46

a lot of talent leaving this

9:49

profession simply because the spaces

9:51

, um, professionally , uh , are

9:53

not as inclusive.

9:55

Well, and Steve , Steve and I attended a

9:58

conference in January

10:00

of this year and a fact came up that was not

10:03

on our minds, certainly three years

10:05

ago when we started ACCEPT, but I think bolsters

10:07

white. Why admissions? Um, so

10:10

we were at a conference and we heard Dr Darnell Cole,

10:13

who is a professor at USC

10:16

Rossier School of Education . And , um , he really pushed

10:18

us as admissions professionals to think very

10:21

intentionally about race and identity formation

10:23

through the lens of the admissions process,

10:25

how it's impacted. But when he shared

10:27

with us , uh, the important fact

10:30

that college campuses are currently the most

10:32

popular place for white supremacists,

10:34

and white terrorist groups to recruit new members,

10:38

he turned to this room of 200 professionals and said,

10:41

you are selecting the people who

10:43

they want to recruit. What is

10:45

your responsibility in that ? Wow.

10:48

And we didn't know that three years ago, but damn

10:50

. And if that's not something that drives us daily.

10:55

And , uh , and so when we think

10:57

about school counseling and college admissions

11:00

and ACCEPT has become a space where we can

11:02

post the anti-defamation league

11:04

report, you know, on reported

11:07

incidents of campus

11:09

bias and hate incidents, you

11:11

know, and that, and that's just quantity of reporting.

11:14

But we , we certainly see an up tick

11:16

, um, whether or not we're in a climate

11:18

where things are reported more frequently.

11:21

Um, but, but that's something to chew

11:23

on. That's something, you

11:25

know, and we can look at any number

11:28

of different types of reports. It's not,

11:30

it's not simply , um,

11:32

it's not enough anymore. Okay, I'm going

11:35

to , I'm going to help you file the paperwork. I'm gonna help

11:37

you search for scholarships. It's

11:39

also, let's do a scan

11:41

on, let's say on the high school side, this student

11:43

in front of me and their family. What are they

11:45

valuing? What are they

11:48

naming that they are afraid of

11:50

or intimidated by or not and

11:52

what may be in their blind spot where

11:55

it would be negligent of us as

11:57

counselors to not

11:59

point that out as a consideration.

12:03

Um, but in all of that work, depending

12:05

on our own personal identities and

12:07

intersections, who's taking care of us?

12:09

If we are the only one of a particular

12:12

background , uh, on a professional

12:14

staff like say , or

12:16

we feel at a loss of certain resources

12:19

or we have to , um, there's just

12:21

certain things that are preventing us from bringing

12:23

our whole selves to our work environments.

12:26

Yet the task is to

12:28

be wholly present for the

12:31

entire range of students and families that are

12:33

in front of us. Um, and so

12:35

ACCEPT is that we like to

12:37

think of ourselves as that charging station

12:39

where , um , those , um,

12:42

on any side of the desk regarding college

12:44

admissions, counseling , um,

12:46

you're able, we're , you're able to come in and plug

12:48

in through information , uh,

12:51

as well as with peer support.

12:53

So when I find incredibly unique about

12:55

your group and what I found really

12:58

surprising and exciting about the work

13:00

that you're doing and accept is

13:03

that you have found a way,

13:05

like you said, to create

13:07

change at your fingertips. That's something that we talk about

13:10

a lot in our world and

13:12

finding ways that are special and unique

13:15

to what you feel like you can impact

13:17

and then going for it. Um , and

13:19

so one of the ways that you've been able to do that is

13:21

by creating this super active Facebook

13:24

group. And I could

13:26

not believe how

13:29

active you were talking about

13:31

that Facebook has featured you

13:34

as one of the most highly

13:36

engaged and influential communities

13:38

in 2017. Can you tell us a little

13:40

bit more about that? Like what was it that

13:42

distinguished your community

13:45

and how have you been able to tap into

13:47

that community to drive action?

13:51

Unbeknownst to us , um, knowing

13:53

that Facebook does look at everything, but we didn't know

13:55

to what degree , um,

13:58

Facebook had reached out and said,

14:00

in looking at the analytics of

14:03

who's engaged , um , over

14:05

90% of those that are members of

14:07

your group, or at

14:10

least weekly or active, at least on a weekly basis,

14:14

we thought, okay, that's , that's nice. And they're

14:16

like, but most groups, it's,

14:18

we consider it, we consider it engaged

14:20

at the 30% mark . Yeah . It's 30%

14:23

of numbers are active on a weekly basis. That's

14:26

a pretty active group. So for it to

14:28

be at 90% in

14:30

the scaling up of membership, we

14:32

knew that it kind of our, our , our, our

14:34

professionals were into this information,

14:36

we're into , uh, you

14:39

know, supporting one another. We

14:41

had no idea of the depth and degree that

14:43

this was a need, you know , um,

14:46

across our, our, across our profession.

14:49

And , and, and one of the first that comes

14:51

to mind is that , um,

14:53

ours was a space where there's

14:56

been a rumbling on. Why

14:58

is it that students have

15:00

to pay for their test scores to be sent to

15:02

all the colleges that they're applying

15:05

to, which can amount to $14

15:07

for each sitting of each ACT.

15:11

Um, so if a student has three ACT's

15:13

to report, it's 42 bucks

15:15

per college on top of the application

15:18

fee itself. And,

15:20

and in the climate where, you know,

15:22

the average student applies to four, but some

15:24

may need to apply to

15:26

eight to 10 or 12 to

15:28

try to see financial aid. It actually

15:31

becomes , um, uh

15:33

, a cost prohibitive, you know,

15:35

for certain families to be able to , um

15:38

, do something as simple as pay

15:40

to send test scores. And so

15:43

for colleges to then say, well, we tried

15:45

you enroll a diverse class, but they just weren't, they

15:48

just weren't in the applicant pool. We

15:50

you were trying , uh, as, except

15:52

to really point out to them removing

15:55

a barrier as simple as a student

15:57

can send you a screenshot of their scores that

15:59

you can later verify if they enroll,

16:02

could actually build that pipeline

16:05

, uh, versus doing the normal thing

16:07

of saying, Eh , and we hear this in interview

16:09

processes as well, right? You know, oh, well

16:11

they just weren't in our applicant pool. We tried

16:14

and, and ACCEPT was a space where we , we

16:16

were able to , um, accelerate

16:19

, um, and amplify some of those conversations

16:22

on cost-prohibitive , uh

16:24

, test scores sending.

16:26

I love that you took something that

16:28

you were saying something as

16:30

simple as one

16:32

single monetary barrier

16:35

that could prevent the entire audience,

16:37

which most institutions often

16:40

tout their diversity numbers, right?

16:42

That's something that they want

16:44

more of and want to promote getting

16:46

more diverse students in their campuses.

16:49

And so it's almost counterproductive

16:53

for them to have had this policy and

16:55

you're pointing out for the first time. We

16:58

actually think that if you get rid

17:00

of this small application

17:03

fee from the front end and

17:05

allow them to confirm their test scores

17:07

on the back end , once they're accepted, it

17:10

will eliminate the single barrier.

17:12

I think that's phenomenal. That's such

17:14

a simple step to take that you

17:17

have been able to see that no one

17:19

else may be able to see because

17:21

you're in it every single day. Are

17:24

there other examples of, of that type of

17:26

action that your community has been able to take?

17:28

For sure. I think, I think one

17:30

of the things that has given us opportunity to this

17:32

is there is that craving for space, right?

17:35

Just to have these conversations and

17:37

by building out, ACCEPT that we've

17:39

become that space. But I think back

17:41

to march for our lives is that

17:43

only 2018? When

17:46

the Parkland shootings occurred and the students

17:49

around the nation said, we want to march,

17:51

we want to show support,

17:54

we want to protest, we want to rise up. And

17:58

all of these school's superintendents

18:00

out of nowhere started to push back on

18:02

the students saying , um,

18:05

if you do that, we will suspend

18:07

you. If you protest and leave school, we will

18:09

suspend you. And if we suspend

18:11

you, you're going to have to take that and

18:14

put that on your college applications and

18:16

colleges, they don't like that. So

18:18

if you , you protest might keep you

18:20

out of college. And

18:23

that was one of those moments where I'm

18:25

so grateful that ACCEPT

18:27

was around because there was

18:29

a collective space for the profession. Your, I'd be like,

18:31

oh that is not okay. You will

18:33

not speak for us in this way.

18:36

And the members

18:39

just with a couple of posts saying, what

18:41

can we do? What can we do? Lead to, you

18:43

know, high level deans of admissions, vice

18:46

president of enrollment, posting

18:48

public social media, post

18:51

Twitter, insta, Facebook, emails

18:53

to their applicants , whatever, saying

18:56

we support the protesters

18:58

. We support the students who have

19:00

to stand for themselves. Um , we

19:03

will not hold this against you in

19:05

the admissions process. And these other

19:07

people don't get to say that

19:09

for us. That was a space

19:11

where it was somewhat outside of

19:13

the Admissions specific

19:16

realm that someone else was using

19:18

us in our process to weaponize

19:22

against students who were doing the right thing.

19:24

And so that was not quite the

19:26

same as, hey, we're going to do it. We can't remove the fees

19:29

that could keep a student from applying. But

19:31

we were able to say, standing up

19:33

for yourself is something we value. We

19:36

did get appropriate push back . Not going to lie.

19:38

This is important. We can appropriate

19:41

pushback from black organizations and black media.

19:44

They were like, that's nice. Where were you when our

19:46

kids walked out for black lives matter marches?

19:48

And my admittedly defensive

19:52

posture during reaction at the time is , oops, we weren't here

19:54

and true, but that's not the right answer. And

19:57

our answer instead was, you're right, we

20:00

need to support all of our students who

20:02

are standing up for themselves and all the ways they can.

20:04

And so we've really, that was a great

20:06

learning moment for us, but it was a great

20:08

opportunity too for like the community in the profession

20:10

to stand up for students and to say, you

20:14

don't get to use us in our process.

20:16

And that way, in fact, we're going to do hide the opposite.

20:19

That that was really proud of that kind of activist

20:21

moment within our community too .

20:24

Yeah. That's something that I think

20:26

a lot of people struggle with is when

20:28

they're in your instance, when

20:30

they get feedback from a community

20:33

that doesn't feel like you were being an ally

20:35

to them in the same way that you were to another

20:38

[inaudible] , you know, you, you owned that.

20:40

And that's something that we've been talking a

20:42

lot about. Um, is acknowledging

20:46

and even if it hurts

20:49

and instead of wanting to react

20:52

and say, no, what are you talking about? I would

20:54

never, I'm an ally. I am here to

20:56

support you too! Acknowledging

20:58

that and then saying, you know what,

21:00

you're right. We need to, we need to be better.

21:05

If I can speak to that nuance too

21:07

because the, and what I've loved so far

21:09

in, in listening to the, the , the

21:11

first podcast that you've

21:13

put out is exploring this concept of

21:15

allyship. And we're

21:18

a group that embraces allyship

21:20

and advocacy, but

21:22

we're also ones to say those

21:24

terms may not be enough. Um

21:27

, allyship can be passive. Allyship

21:29

could be buying a button. You

21:32

know, allyship could be holding

21:34

a premise in your heart, but not

21:36

acting upon it. Uh,

21:39

and so there's something where allyship

21:41

gets to be a self-defined

21:44

and monitored , uh, in many

21:46

instances. Um, but

21:49

what our profession is seeking

21:51

are accomplices , um,

21:54

and to really take it to another level.

21:56

An accomplice in this work means

21:59

whether or not I have the language, whether

22:01

or not , um , I'm, I am fluent

22:03

or as competent. I

22:06

see in , I see

22:08

you, whether it's a professional,

22:11

a colleague or a student and

22:13

saying, I , I

22:15

am going to act to make this

22:17

better. Not just believe

22:20

it. In my heart as an ally or

22:22

speak about it as a philosopher

22:25

advocate, but really

22:27

go to that next level of doing

22:29

, um, and really putting,

22:32

sticking my neck out and , and

22:34

willing to perhaps take

22:36

a fall , um, by

22:40

sharing in the stance and by

22:42

speaking , um, uh,

22:44

on your behalf or alongside you.

22:47

And, and I think that's something where , um,

22:49

two people looking at each other can say I'm

22:52

an ally and yet they

22:54

still may not be able to get any work done.

22:56

There's something about the humility

22:58

required in

23:01

calling for accomplices

23:03

, um, and then, and

23:06

then, okay, pause and unpack that in

23:08

order for us to really do that work,

23:11

how much more do we need to get to know

23:13

about one another before we can get

23:15

into it.

23:17

I would say the thing that I have personally

23:19

taken away from except

23:22

is a, I've learned

23:24

how to apologize a lot

23:26

better, a lot faster

23:29

with that defensiveness and

23:31

with far more humility. Okay.

23:35

And that's a tough one as a leader

23:37

to learn. It's a tough one. Who for

23:39

someone who claims

23:41

to have enough wherewithal to

23:44

be able to start and lead something like this. For, for

23:47

me, my biggest gift from this group is

23:49

learning how to acknowledge when

23:51

I step in it because I stepped in it just as much

23:53

as anyone else.

23:58

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24:35

I think part of the process and becoming an ally

24:38

is getting over your ego, right?

24:40

And your ego is the one that tells

24:42

you that I

24:45

need to defend myself in this moment because I need

24:47

to sort of preserve myself and my

24:49

status rather than looking outward

24:51

and being able to see it from

24:53

a different perspective. And in , in my own

24:55

role, I have certainly stepped

24:57

in and done certain

25:00

things that in hindsight made

25:02

a lot of sense why the communities that I hurt

25:04

were hurt. And being able to come back and

25:06

own up for the fact that I made a mistake and wondering

25:09

how we can grow from that. I

25:12

also really love, you

25:14

know, talking about where you're wrong. Um, Steve,

25:16

I love you talking about how

25:19

some of the idea around being an

25:21

ally is knowing that you're going to make mistakes

25:23

but still trying to power through and if you're

25:25

not willing to power through, then what change

25:27

are you going to make? So

25:30

I think, I think that leads me into,

25:33

you know, you have done such a wonderful

25:35

thing with this community that

25:37

you've built and being able to make real

25:40

actionable change that the community has been

25:42

able to do. What tips

25:45

would you recommend to our listeners

25:47

who want to have a similar impact

25:50

in whether it be, you know, similar to

25:52

what you're doing in higher education or other organizations

25:55

and trying to make them more accessible and inclusive

25:57

for underrepresented folks?

25:59

Oh, what a great question. Yeah.

26:02

Gosh.

26:03

I do think one of the important

26:05

aspects is, is just

26:08

getting together and

26:10

agreeing upon what

26:12

you're really trying to get at, even

26:14

if it's lofty and then determine

26:16

what the norms are. An d a

26:19

lot of this is perhaps

26:21

some of the basics in advising

26:23

and working with inclusive spaces, but

26:26

then holding ourselves accountable

26:28

as a leadership team to that, you

26:30

know, that we should, we should always

26:32

speak from the, I , you know,

26:35

with I statements not, you

26:37

know, and to teach others, you know, the moment

26:39

you start using you, you

26:41

know, then walls go up. There

26:44

also needs to be , um,

26:47

just a recommendation for articles

26:50

that or whatever ongoing learning

26:52

can take place. Enforcing that as an aspect

26:55

of your group. There's always

26:57

another , uh , set of stories,

26:59

another set of , um,

27:01

and, and sometimes once we think we've done

27:03

all the reading, we've created

27:06

a space where here's an intersection,

27:08

a set of intersecting identities that has

27:11

never popped up before. And

27:13

it's a beautiful , um,

27:16

uh, brutiful, we even say , um,

27:19

set of narratives and, and

27:21

a lot of that is truly

27:24

getting to know one

27:26

another on an individual basis as

27:28

much as possible and seeking.

27:31

Okay . What brought you here and being ever

27:33

curious, what brought you here?

27:35

What keeps you here? For me, I

27:37

was so I have been so passionate about the

27:40

college process. Being a first generation college

27:42

attendee. My mom is

27:44

a Taiwanese immigrant, u m, and

27:47

married my dad during the Vietnam War.

27:49

U m, and when he was stationed

27:51

over in Taiwan and she was, she

27:54

was schooled through the sixth grade and still

27:56

can't read or write English, u

27:58

m, despite being in, in American

28:01

culture since the

28:04

mid sixties. And so, u h, but,

28:06

but I pass, I pass

28:08

as Caucasian.

28:10

U m, and in most instances,

28:13

u m, and, and I'm gay as

28:15

well, a Gay

28:17

Taiwanese American who grew up in the south. And,

28:21

and so I have come to terms

28:24

for the longest time that I'm not g

28:26

onna run into people like me, u

28:28

m, from my three primary identifiers

28:30

of gender and race and sexuality,

28:33

I've met fewer than 10 people in my

28:35

life who s hared those, that combination.

28:39

U m, I'm used to walking into a space

28:41

where I'm not g onna run into folks that have had

28:43

my, u m, my

28:45

life experiences. But I'm

28:47

also able to convert

28:49

that into being able

28:51

to be curious

28:53

about others, u h, a nd, and

28:55

to try to seek understanding versus feeling

28:58

competitive or feeling that

29:00

I've been deprived of something. I

29:02

could have chosen that. But I, I've

29:05

learned that, u m, you're

29:07

not g onna get very far by holding

29:09

onto that. And so I, I'm

29:11

trying to encourage

29:13

others to tap into

29:15

that ability to convert where you,

29:18

w here you're constantly the only one.

29:20

But for me, I have the privilege

29:22

of passing, u h, a nd, and

29:25

so how to then be ever mindful

29:27

of that in, in bringing other stories

29:29

forward.

29:32

I think for me it's if someone thinks about and want to stepped

29:35

into this space and work on equity work

29:37

and justice , um,

29:39

and anti racism , whether on social

29:41

media, in real life, how I really want to

29:43

approach it regardless of of, of the

29:45

space. I

29:47

think two things really come to

29:49

my mind to make it as, to

29:52

lay a foundation for it to be as successful

29:55

ventures. First is make sure that

29:57

the team of voices leading it is

29:59

diverse and that especially in racial

30:01

equity, can't center white people

30:04

, um,

30:06

that, that there needs to be people of color,

30:08

not just at the table but running the table. And

30:12

I think Steve and brandy are on fire,

30:15

one of the three co leaders. So I'm seeing Steve, Steven

30:18

, brandy and I have been, I hope,

30:20

extremely intentional about

30:22

looking around and saying, what voices

30:24

aren't here? But more so than

30:27

that, what voices are silenced

30:29

because we feel, because

30:31

we have to protect something.

30:34

Right? And so I think that's the first thing is making

30:36

sure that there is many voices

30:39

and experiences around the table and not

30:41

focusing or not centering a majority

30:43

experience particularly for doing

30:45

racial equity work. And second

30:48

is a concept that we learned

30:51

at SMU about a year ago when

30:53

um, when we did a program there and when

30:55

ACCEPT did a program working with SMU. And that's idea

30:58

of approaching this work with cultural humility. That

31:02

we all talk about cultural competency,

31:05

cultural competency training. And then if you're further down the

31:08

line, it's know I have cultural fluency.

31:11

We learned about the concept of cultural humility

31:13

and that's something I've tried very hard to apply in everything

31:15

I do that cultural humility

31:19

flattens the hierarchy does not

31:22

place the burden of teaching on the marginalized

31:24

person doesn't center the white

31:27

person as a as the arbiter of I've

31:29

hit a check mark, which is competency or

31:32

I've learned all there is to know and I know as much as you

31:35

which is fluency but rather cultural humility.

31:39

Stepping back and saying, let's, I

31:41

want to hear your story and I

31:44

will accept and hear your criticism without defensiveness

31:48

and my goal is to learn and to be better every day.

31:52

Those two things I think have helped make

31:54

us successful in this work.

31:58

It's interesting. Something that just

32:00

sparked inside of me from both of you

32:02

is from hearing both of you share your

32:04

part of your story is that

32:08

I am also mixed. I'm

32:10

a mixed Latina, also white.

32:12

A white mother and I

32:14

was thinking about this really recently. I

32:17

actually think that because

32:19

of being and embodying

32:21

intersectional identities, right, like it

32:24

mixed race Latina who is also

32:27

a LGBTQ community

32:29

member, it has made

32:32

me from such a young age have an open

32:34

mindedness that other folks

32:36

just aren't forced to have.

32:39

And like you were saying, Steve,

32:42

I've been able to pass most of

32:44

my life. I as soon as I

32:47

moved to the U.S. I remember like

32:49

practicing my English

32:51

because I wanted to make , I would look

32:54

and open up magazines and

32:56

I would practice to myself and record

32:59

myself in my bedroom reading

33:01

in English until I could sound like

33:03

I was from here. And once

33:06

I felt like I could sound

33:08

like I was , uh , an American born

33:10

girl, I , it was so much easier

33:12

for me to pass as if like, no, no,

33:15

I'm not an other in any other way. Right? Like

33:17

I could just pretend, which gives me

33:19

the privilege of getting access to

33:22

the same opportunities that other people

33:24

who are white and

33:28

nationally born in the U.S. get. Um,

33:31

that being said, I think

33:34

one of the most interesting things that I've experienced

33:36

growing up is that once

33:38

I got to college, one of the communities

33:41

I actually found was most active

33:43

and most vocal

33:45

in racial justice was

33:48

a community that we started called multiethnic,

33:50

interracial Smith College (MISC) . That was

33:53

all about mixed race identities

33:55

coming together to talk about how

33:57

power, privilege and identity

34:00

play into everyday life and just

34:02

thought it was really interesting that a lot of these folks

34:04

who are forced to think about

34:06

it because of their identity, they,

34:09

they are the ones who are, who can be

34:11

bridge builders in many ways because

34:13

they can empathize and

34:15

feel their experience from multiple

34:17

perspectives.

34:19

I'm high fiving you as another mixed race

34:21

person. I am half white,

34:24

half Vietnamese, like

34:26

Steve said, has a privilege

34:28

of passing. Although I don't think I do,

34:31

but I know certainly when I was younger I would make efforts

34:35

in the way that you did with your accent.

34:38

I made efforts in my appearance and say

34:41

like distancing myself. And

34:44

even to this day, I'm sad that I don't

34:46

have a lot of personal connection to my mother's culture

34:48

because that was a specific choice I

34:50

made as a way to survive. You know,

34:52

that proximity to lightness as proximity to

34:55

safety, but I think even in a more core away

34:57

from me, it was proximity to my father and

34:59

his family. But you

35:02

know , one of those icebreakers , what's your super power?

35:05

For like the last five, six years I was

35:07

saying my superpowers that I'm multiracial,

35:10

I can exist in multiple spaces at once.

35:13

Yes. Snaps for that.

35:15

I love that.

35:16

And some of the most

35:19

passionate and effective organizers

35:23

and activists I know are multiracial

35:26

people. And I think it's because

35:28

we have this intense

35:30

and never ending awareness of what

35:33

it is to have privilege and what it is

35:35

to not. Hmm

35:37

.

35:38

And I'll , I'll even go a step

35:40

further and saying no. A willingness to

35:42

build bridges even

35:44

though either culture

35:47

may not even embrace you. That I,

35:52

that I can choose or someone

35:55

of a multiracial background can

35:58

embrace each side or multiple

36:00

sides if there's , um , uh , a

36:02

deeper next year , um , and

36:04

yet may or may not have

36:07

any of the component cultures

36:10

looking back at them and say , um

36:13

, we're counting you as one of us.

36:16

Um , even the willingness

36:18

to , um, still

36:21

declare that , um,

36:23

I have found to be

36:26

a source of a source of strength

36:29

, um, uh , personally

36:31

and also in, in watching others navigate

36:34

, uh, their , their world in spaces.

36:36

I think that's so cool. Your college

36:38

had that , Smith had an

36:40

affinity group for a mix for multiracial

36:43

people and it's really amazing.

36:44

Yeah, it was really bad ass and it

36:46

had been inactive for a few years. And

36:48

then when I was a junior a friend

36:51

of mine, her name is Kendra

36:53

she and I started having these conversations,

36:55

just one on one and she identified

36:57

as hapa. So half. We

36:59

were talking a lot about these topics and

37:01

then we discovered through the archives that it

37:04

had existed at one point, and

37:06

we reactivated this organization

37:08

to be able to facilitate conversations around

37:11

this in a more formal capacity. And

37:13

it was really probably one of

37:15

the safest places where we could really

37:17

dig into our identity, especially

37:19

because both of us, I think connected on

37:22

this idea of being the other,

37:24

no matter which community we sat

37:26

with, we always felt like we didn't

37:28

belong. Right? Like when I'm here,

37:30

I'm not, I'm not white enough. When I'm there,

37:33

I'm not Salvadoran enough. Right.

37:35

And so always feeling like I'm not from here, I'm

37:37

not from there. And navigating all these different

37:40

spaces, but being able to be a translator,

37:44

both of culture and experience and

37:47

language and navigating how

37:49

we can empower ourselves to then

37:52

lift other people up through that ability

37:54

to see through that Lens.

37:57

Yeah. And, and,

37:59

and hearing that too, that, you know

38:01

, uh , one of the powerful things about

38:04

ACCEPT is that at almost

38:06

every conference , uh , that we have

38:08

professionally as counselors and college admissions

38:10

professionals, we try to host

38:13

what are called meetups. And then

38:15

folks that have been members of the groups

38:17

get to see each other in person for the first

38:20

time. You know, folks that you've admired.

38:23

Um, and, or, or

38:25

it's also as a place where folks

38:27

say, Hey, come to this meeting and they've never been

38:29

a member before. And they jumped right into it.

38:32

And, and that's added another dimension that it

38:34

doesn't have to be an exclusively online

38:38

space for reading and engagement,

38:40

but to be able to amplify it with

38:43

the in-person, the social aspect

38:45

of it, but also the challenge. Now, that I see

38:47

you in person and , and see the

38:49

sparks flying off of you, you know

38:51

, um , and how passionate you are about this.

38:54

I'm going to take that with me and try

38:56

to do better in my community.

38:59

So first off, I want to, I'm sitting

39:02

here as the w the one person who

39:04

is white and there's not share

39:06

a different ethnicity

39:08

or race. I'm like, I thank you for

39:10

your vulnerability and being able to talk about

39:12

your perspective. Um, obviously

39:14

Gaby and I have been together for 13 years, so I've

39:17

been able to really hear her challenges

39:19

of living as, as a mixed Latina

39:21

and what that has meant for her. And I've leaned a lot

39:23

about it, but it's rare for me to

39:25

hear people so openly talk about their

39:28

experience as well. And I think your vulnerability

39:30

is a lot of what we're really hoping

39:32

to get out of this podcast in the first place. So

39:34

it's just first off, thank you so much.

39:37

And I think the, the other side of this is I'm finding

39:39

myself in a vulnerable space as

39:41

well. Listening to you sort

39:43

of wondering of all of

39:45

you who identify as mixed

39:47

in in one way or another, how can I

39:50

be an ally to you? Or

39:52

in general, what does allyship to

39:54

you mean?

39:56

That's a great question. It's a big question.

40:00

There's still adults that asked us. So

40:02

I , I, you know, I'm , I'm not going to say

40:04

for you specifically, but it's

40:06

interesting the number of adults that will

40:09

pause and , and hear you

40:11

know, something in my voice or like,

40:13

you know, how I look and then

40:16

they'll just go, what are you? You

40:19

know, and , and , and there's an I and

40:21

, and we all know where

40:24

that comes from. And that's

40:26

just the way to get to it. But it's, it's

40:30

a , it's a crappy question, you

40:32

know? It's

40:36

like that's something you ask

40:38

a dog owner. Oh, well what

40:40

is that? You know , what is it, you know, like, describe,

40:43

describe your, your mut's, you

40:45

know, composition, you know , um,

40:48

and, and really just be

40:50

inquisitive. you know? Where'd

40:52

you grow up, you know, where's

40:55

your family from? Um,

40:57

versus the, what are you

40:59

as if, as if it can be put into

41:01

three or four easy compartments , compartments

41:04

for the person who asked the question. You

41:06

know, cause there's so many

41:08

ways that someone

41:10

, uh , if you're talking to someone who

41:12

is in tune with their intersections,

41:15

well, you know, what

41:17

do you really want to hear? What are you ready for? You

41:19

know? Um, so

41:21

the, the cultural humility part , think

41:23

about how our language is actually

41:26

, um , hindering relationships

41:28

because we operate in all these binaries.

41:31

And what are you [inaudible] for me? Is that

41:34

it immediately I'm leaning out, but

41:36

there's a chance for redemption.

41:39

It's such a great question to some extent , actually, like

41:41

literally in the thick of this right now as

41:43

, um , I had posted something fairly vulnerable

41:45

at , on pantsuit nation today and

41:49

I'm getting some pushback because I've been pushing

41:51

back and what

41:54

I'm seeing people play out there is

41:56

good allyship is stepping in. Or

41:59

as we say with some snark, come get your people.

42:03

Hmm . Come get your people. Um, for

42:05

me that means if I,

42:08

if I'm in a space where I, I'm

42:11

in the Asian community and people are talking about

42:13

affirmative action in the negative. Or any number

42:19

of things. Like that's my community. That's where I'm

42:21

given privilege in the past, just by my

42:23

appearance and my worth . And

42:25

in some spaces, even with white people, especially

42:28

like with my white family. So

42:30

I learned how to be a good ally in these conversations.

42:33

Like come get your people when, when

42:35

these conversations are happening, when someone

42:37

who falls into

42:40

your affinity community who is

42:42

going to automatically give you privilege

42:44

and additional space because of your

42:46

identity , um , when

42:50

they're doing something, come for them.

42:52

Because when we do, as someone

42:54

not in that community or as people of color,

42:57

the pushback is really mighty. But

43:00

when someone they can identify, corrects

43:03

gently or however it comes, it comes at

43:06

that that's received so differently. And

43:09

so I think one of the first steps in

43:11

good allyship is to really like be knowledgeable

43:13

of that and to , and to take that ownership.

43:17

I have to come get my own.

43:21

I think that's a brilliant place to close.

43:23

Um , thank you so

43:25

much for being here. I want to give

43:27

you guys one more chance in this

43:31

last couple of minutes to talk to us a little bit about what you

43:33

guys are up to right now. I know you're

43:35

going through a big life

43:38

change and taking on a big

43:40

initiative. So tell us more about that. Tell

43:42

our listeners what you're, what

43:44

you're doing and how we can support you. Uh

43:46

, thanks. So we have a great

43:49

website. It's

43:50

kind of starting a new but as a wonderful

43:52

space for our information. For those of you not

43:54

who, who don't work in the college admissions

43:56

space and that website is acceptgroup.org.

44:04

Um, in the next couple of weeks we're gonna launch a couple

44:06

of really big initiatives with the one that we're incredibly

44:09

excited about that we hope your listeners , um

44:11

, join us for and participate in is going to

44:13

be a year long project called "radically

44:16

re-imagined admissions", where

44:18

along with the Rise Center

44:21

from Colorado State, we're

44:23

going to have online conversations

44:26

in person meetups, a hackathon

44:28

and policy papers where we're

44:30

going to get them out hopefully to impact

44:33

the election. But

44:35

with all of the myriad

44:37

of controversies going on

44:39

in College Admissions,

44:41

we thought this would be a really good time for us to

44:44

step back and say, hey, if we could rebuild

44:47

this whole crazy thing and

44:49

focused on the values that we, that we believe are important

44:52

and what might this process look like for

44:54

the student, for the institution,

44:57

for any of the people around the table who

45:00

help make that happen, how might

45:02

we find greater equity and justice

45:05

if we just strip this whole thing down and rebuilt

45:07

it? So that's something that we want

45:09

folks of , of all spaces to jump

45:11

in , um , and to get involved with. And you'll be able

45:13

to find more information on our website and

45:16

mid August about that. Um ,

45:19

And how can folks who aren't in admissions

45:21

support ACCEPT?

45:23

Well, you know, as soon

45:25

as we finish our 501c3 process,

45:28

which is really going to happen any

45:30

minute now, we can start to get, if we

45:32

would love your donation, because

45:34

what has been kind of a free group

45:36

that we've run online , um , we're

45:38

not operationalizing and it's, it's

45:40

changing form pretty rapidly. So

45:42

we could always use any financial

45:45

help if folks want to collaborate

45:48

from other a social justice organizations

45:50

or or community organizations.

45:52

We're always looking for folks with whom to collaborate

45:54

and just share exciting ideas and initiatives.

45:56

And I think the biggest way somebody can support

45:59

except is to support an

46:02

antiracist philosophy and everything they do.

46:05

That's phenomenal. Thank you

46:07

so much for all of this. I want

46:10

to give a huge shout out to the except community

46:12

and for all the amazing action

46:14

you're all taking every day to

46:16

make higher education more accessible

46:18

to all and we are

46:21

just truly inspired by everything that you've

46:23

done. So thank you for joining us for a

46:26

short bit of your time today and

46:28

really sharing your story with us.

46:30

We really appreciate it.

46:32

Thank you. Thank you for highlighting leaders

46:34

of color and exciting ways of looking at leadership. I

46:36

mean all of us need to amplify

46:39

each other, so thank you

46:41

for your work.

46:42

Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, I

46:44

just put it out there before we officially

46:46

end is I think you guys are awesome. I

46:48

love just truly what

46:50

you're doing. And the way that you speak

46:52

about it and how much passion comes from it

46:55

and it, it really shows that

46:57

all of the work that you have done

47:00

is really because of that passion that comes from

47:02

it. The fact that your community is so active

47:04

really stems from that. So that's amazing. And thank

47:06

you so much for sharing your time. It's been really

47:08

impactful for me listening to you talk

47:11

about what you're doing, especially in a space

47:13

that's similar to what I'm doing. So thank you

47:15

so much.

47:16

Thank you!

47:17

Thank you both. We're so glad that

47:20

we found and connected with you of

47:22

from a a fellow ACCEPT member

47:25

of, as you all were announcing the launch

47:27

of this podcast and I'm, I am

47:29

, uh , I am a happy follower of

47:31

it already. I just wish you

47:34

all so much success with it

47:36

and looking forward to the stories

47:38

that you're going to accumulate

47:40

as a , as we, as we grow together.

47:44

Yeah, it's an exciting process. I'm finding

47:46

all these beautiful little niches on the Internet

47:49

creating change in their own, their

47:52

own unique ways and it's going to

47:54

be a phenomenal journey. Getting to learn

47:56

about all these different people, people

47:58

doing what they are passionate

48:00

about and creating change in their own ways. What

48:04

did you think?

48:06

so A) I love them

48:09

as human beings. Yeah

48:11

. They're just wonderful

48:13

and glowing and

48:16

Steve talks so passionately about

48:18

everything that he does and I love , uh,

48:20

I love the thoughtfulness of

48:22

Marie and how much talking

48:25

about how much work that she's put in into making

48:27

sure that she is, she

48:29

is thoughtful of other communities. I thought the

48:31

comment about, you know, black

48:33

lives matter, coming back and saying, where were you when

48:37

we needed you? And

48:39

her being able to sit there and maybe she

48:41

had an initial response, but be able to come back

48:43

and say, you know what? You're

48:46

right. I'm wrong. I think that that's so

48:49

huge and important and to be able to

48:51

do it in a space that's

48:53

so visible too. And to

48:56

be an example of

48:58

what that looks like is so key

49:00

to just creating that larger chain

49:03

reaction of other people being

49:05

able to do that too and get over

49:07

their own ego.

49:08

Yeah. To me that's a huge

49:11

inspiration. And an example of how

49:13

I want to be able to navigate that stuff when

49:16

inevitably we will be caught at called

49:18

out for not doing something

49:20

in a certain way and I

49:22

want to practice taking

49:24

that in. And then like,

49:27

I think the words she used were

49:29

so wonderful. It was learning

49:31

to apologize with humility. Yeah.

49:35

That's so great.

49:37

Um , I want

49:39

to add into my

49:41

vocabulary, cultural

49:44

humility. It gives me a

49:46

word to describe

49:48

what I've been trying to explain for

49:50

myself for so long

49:52

is it's not just understanding

49:55

and getting closer to the cultural

49:57

fluency that she was talking about. It's

50:01

the being able to say,

50:03

okay, I messed up. Or okay, I don't

50:05

know. Or okay,

50:07

I'm willing to learn more, or I know

50:09

I need to educate myself. Right.

50:11

It's, it's everything that comes with

50:13

being an ally, that it's not just

50:15

knowing that it exists, but trying

50:18

to help be a part of the , the

50:20

greater part of this. And educating

50:22

yourself and educating others.

50:24

Yeah. They both said something else

50:26

that I was like, oh my God, that's so

50:28

beautiful. It was like when you do this

50:30

kind of work, you need to include

50:33

team leaders who are also

50:35

people of color or marginalized groups and

50:38

not only give them a seat at the table

50:41

but let them run the table. Yes

50:43

, and I thought that was so

50:45

well said. And

50:48

I think this is an example of how , um,

50:51

in general all leadership, any

50:53

leader can do this to

50:56

empower others who are learning

50:58

in any way, shape, or form. But specifically

51:01

those who don't typically get an even

51:03

a seat at the table is to give

51:05

them a chance and a safe space to

51:08

run the table. I think

51:10

that is so cool. That idea.

51:12

I want to practice that. I'm not quite sure

51:14

exactly how yet, but I want

51:16

to do it. And it also at the

51:18

same time, it gave me a feeling.

51:20

Let's talk about feels.

51:23

My feeling was when

51:25

we were thinking about starting this podcast

51:27

and also when I was thinking about shifting

51:29

my career into diversity and inclusion,

51:32

one of my very initial

51:34

reactions, tweaks,

51:37

fears was that because

51:39

I can pass as a

51:41

multiethnic, multiracial

51:44

person that I felt

51:46

like I didn't have the right to

51:48

do this and I, I

51:50

literally checked in with my people.

51:52

Like I checked in with all of

51:55

my peer mentors and mentors of color

51:57

to ask them specifically, am I crazy

51:59

for doing this? Is this a good

52:01

idea? Am I the right person

52:03

to be doing this? And I went

52:06

to several of my friends, including

52:08

Cedric, who really encouraged

52:10

me to start this

52:12

podcast. He literally looked at me, he was like,

52:15

yeah girl, like why are you waiting

52:17

for somebody else to give you permission?

52:19

You have the tools and the right

52:21

lens and you're coming at it from the right

52:24

perspective, asking questions of other

52:26

people, letting them guide you.

52:28

So go be our ally. Like

52:30

go take, go take this and the

52:32

knowledge that you have and do it. And

52:36

I don't think I would have been comfortable doing

52:38

something like this without that encouragement

52:41

from the community that I want

52:43

to bring with me and

52:45

I want to support

52:48

and, and be an ally to. Cause otherwise

52:50

I felt like I was just like being a white

52:52

girl, you know, like, like

52:55

somebody with privilege coming in and being like,

52:57

I'm just going to help people who need

52:59

it. And I feel like that's always inherently

53:02

a huge issues like that savior martyr

53:04

complex that a lot of people have.

53:07

And I just didn't want to buy into that . So

53:10

I just thought on the piece that ties

53:12

us all back in is that I

53:15

was really worried that we were going to start this podcast

53:18

as a queer couple

53:21

and me being a mixed

53:23

Latina who can pass as white

53:26

and come at it with

53:29

a lens that was inappropriate

53:31

because we're not bringing someone to

53:33

run the table who is more

53:35

marginalized than we are. However,

53:39

the way that I'm thinking about it right now is that

53:42

that's why we have our guests on, right?

53:44

Like the whole point to me is

53:46

to have guests on who look

53:48

and experience the world differently than we

53:50

do so that they can share with us

53:53

their experience. So if it had just

53:55

been us talking about diversity and inclusion

53:57

as if like we knew all the answers, I

53:59

think that would have been really problematic. But

54:02

because we are bringing

54:04

people in, we are learning

54:06

in the process and so it makes me feel a little

54:08

bit better that, you know, I at

54:10

least that's a vulnerability that I just like suddenly

54:12

like I felt it.

54:14

Yeah. I think, and I mean the

54:16

other side of this for me is I

54:19

am a white girl. Like I'm not mixed.

54:21

I'm gay, but I'm not mixed. Right.

54:24

And doing this has been, how

54:27

do I explain this? So I look at you and I say,

54:30

you at least have some authority to talk

54:32

on this because you are Latina, you

54:35

are marginalized. Or at

54:37

least you know your community is

54:39

marginalized. You at least...You can

54:41

pass, right? So that puts you

54:43

in a very complex position within yourself

54:45

and internally that you've been working through. But

54:47

you still are a Latina. I

54:49

am not. And so I have been

54:53

feeling very similar to you that I

54:55

really want to make sure that I'm not co-opting

54:57

this space and that

54:59

I'm not speaking out of

55:01

turn. But also

55:04

I think I said it during

55:07

the last bit talking about allyship and

55:10

that I do feel vulnerable asking

55:12

them and realizing, great,

55:15

I'm now the one white like white

55:17

person in the room with the set

55:19

of mixed people talking about their experiences

55:22

that I cannot necessarily identify

55:24

with. I struggle

55:27

with when do I speak up and

55:29

when do I sit back and just listen and

55:31

make sure that I'm listening and understanding

55:34

and I'm not stepping into much with my

55:37

own , uh , not my own

55:39

opinion, but I guess my own perspective

55:41

on the situation because that's not

55:43

the, that's not the point. I want to hear from their

55:45

perspective and understand what we can get out

55:48

of that and take and move forward

55:50

with us. And so I absolutely

55:52

can relate to this feeling that you're having, at

55:54

least from my perspective of I

55:57

am the white girl in the room and how do I make sure

55:59

that I am showing that

56:02

I'm not an expert and I want to be the one

56:04

learning and that I'm not overtaking

56:06

the conversation?

56:08

Yeah. Well the very fact to me that

56:11

you're even thinking about these things,

56:14

that means that you're being thoughtful in your

56:16

responses and in your actions . So I

56:18

just, I really appreciate that about you in general

56:21

in our lives and in our relationship

56:23

and our friendships. So,

56:27

you know, I , I'm biased in this situation, obviously

56:29

being your wife, but I just think that that's really

56:31

unique and special about you, that you're

56:34

very introspective in every conversation

56:36

that you have and every action that you take

56:38

almost to a fault. However,

56:42

like it leads to a lot of anxiety and

56:44

like frustration. However,

56:46

I think like if we could find a middle

56:49

ground and everyone could do that more and

56:51

be more thoughtful and intentional in the way that

56:53

they're addressing conversations.

56:55

Asking better questions like Steve Sad , right?

56:58

Like, instead of asking what

57:00

are you, you know, like if we

57:02

could just be more intentional about saying like,

57:04

oh, that makes you feel like an object

57:06

again, that makes you feel like something

57:09

not human. So

57:12

let me ask better questions and say,

57:14

hey, tell me more about your background. Like what, where

57:17

are , where's your family from? How do you identify,

57:20

you know, the, that kind of thing. Um,

57:22

instead of saying like, what, what are

57:24

you, you like weird creature that

57:26

looks ambiguous. This

57:29

is a cool conversation.

57:31

Yeah, I like it. They want

57:34

to figure out how we can support them more

57:37

because they are, they're really

57:39

cool. I love the fact that they

57:41

said they wanted to start in their

57:43

own community. That

57:45

and the , the , the idea that it's, I

57:47

don't have to go out and create a brand new community

57:50

to try to make change. I can

57:52

start in the community that I already exist

57:55

and just start these conversations

57:57

in the first place. So in their

57:59

world, that's how we can impact making the admissions

58:01

process more inclusive. The

58:03

GRE is a barrier. So how

58:06

, how can we work around this as a barrier for

58:08

people who might be marginalized in

58:10

a socioeconomic status that can't

58:12

afford it? It's just looking at

58:14

where am I today and what can I do better

58:16

in the community that I'm in today. I love them.

58:18

I love them so much.

58:20

While you're leaving those voice memos on our website

58:22

the way we lead.com, please make

58:24

sure to subscribe to our newsletter

58:27

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58:29

We love our subscribers!

58:33

You're the best!

58:33

Get some additional pictures

58:35

and information and stories, background

58:38

information about how we got to certain

58:40

stories. It's going to be fun.

58:42

This episode was produced by me, Gaby

58:45

Acosta

58:45

And cohosted by me, Jenelle Acosta.

58:48

Our music was written and produced by the talented

58:51

Emily Henry. Here's Jenelle, singing us out

58:54

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59:03

Emily Lynch, Emily Newhook, Erica

59:06

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59:13

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59:18

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59:19

Every time.