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now on with the show. It's the

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week ending Friday the 31st of January

0:41

and this is the week unwrapped in

0:43

the past seven days We've seen a

0:46

passenger plane colliding with a military helicopter

0:48

in Washington DC Tech stocks stabilizing after

0:50

Chinese AI app Deep Seek wiped billions

0:52

from US firms and Rachel Reeves announcing

0:55

the government support for a third runway

0:57

at Heathrow You can read all you

0:59

need to know about everything that matters

1:01

in the week magazine, but we're here

1:03

to bring some stories that passed under

1:06

the radar this week big news not

1:08

making headlines right now, but with

1:10

repercussions for all our lives. I'm

1:12

Ollie Mann, and let's unwrap the

1:14

week. And joining me today from

1:16

the week's digital team, we have

1:18

Rebecca Evans from Down Under.

1:21

It's Aaron McNicol from History

1:23

Podcast Today and History with

1:25

the Retrospectors. And we welcome

1:27

back, BBC Sports Journalist. Emma

1:29

Smith. And as I mentioned

1:31

in the intro there, this

1:34

has been Deep Seek's week,

1:36

the number one app in

1:38

the US. So be honest

1:40

with me now, don't

1:42

overthink it. Rebecca, what is

1:45

your number one app? If I

1:47

was to look at your phone,

1:49

what do you use the

1:51

most? Probably WhatsApp, to be

1:54

honest, it's just very

1:56

convenient and easy to

1:58

use really. I haven't used

2:00

it in app form. What do

2:02

you, when it's just there on

2:04

your phone? What's the most handy

2:06

use of chat-GPT on the go?

2:08

Well, you can actually chat with

2:10

it now, and they've got various

2:12

kinds of personalities. No one, no

2:14

one just speak to you. And

2:16

I'm not podcasting. All right, all

2:18

right. Uh, Aaron, you're up first.

2:20

What do you think this week

2:22

should be remembered for? This week,

2:24

sunny multicultural Australia took a dark

2:26

turn. This is the discovery of

2:29

a potential mass casualty event. There's

2:31

only one way of calling it

2:33

out, and that is terrorism. That's

2:35

what we're very worried about. This

2:37

would strike terror into the community,

2:39

particularly the Jewish community. Chris Min's

2:41

premiere of New South Wales, speaking

2:43

at a press conference on Wednesday.

2:45

An Arian, this is a big

2:47

story in Sydney, where you are,

2:49

but the rest of us may

2:51

well have missed it. So what's

2:53

happened this week? Yeah so this

2:55

week Australian police said that they

2:57

found a caravan in northwest Sydney

2:59

that was packed with explosives and

3:01

also accompanied with anti-Semitic material including

3:03

a list of Jewish areas across

3:05

Sydney that looked like they were

3:07

being considered as sites for a

3:09

possible bomb attack and the caravan

3:11

was actually found by police last

3:13

week but it only became public

3:15

this week after it was leaked

3:17

to the media and police were

3:19

initially very defensive. but also quick

3:21

to say that the owner of

3:23

the caravan is in custody, though

3:25

on unrelated matters apparently, but this

3:27

pretty troubling discovery comes following a

3:29

spate of anti-Semitic incidents in Australia's

3:31

two biggest cities of Sydney and

3:33

Melbourne, including arson attacks on synagogues

3:35

and swastikas, scrawled on buildings and

3:37

cars, and it seemed significant particularly

3:39

as the world paused to commemorate

3:41

the 80th anniversary of the liberation

3:43

of Auschwitz. This is something you're

3:45

aware of walking around Sydney. No,

3:47

I mean in a day-to-day way,

3:49

not particularly other than the fact

3:51

that it's in the news in

3:53

a big serious way because of

3:55

all of this stuff that's going

3:57

down. So is that, I suppose

3:59

the thing... is, you know, we've

4:01

seen a buildup of anti-Semitism in

4:03

Australia as you've outlined, then you

4:05

get a dramatic example like this.

4:07

Is the response from people there

4:09

shock? Or is it like, oh,

4:11

well, you could see that we

4:13

were leading up to something like

4:15

this? I think that's a combination

4:17

of both. I mean, I think

4:19

that there's no surprise about the

4:21

impact of the 7th October attack

4:23

by Hamas on Israel and Israel's

4:25

subsequent war in Gaza and the

4:28

way that that has had real

4:30

reverberations around the whole world. But

4:32

I think that there is something

4:34

a bit surprising about a country

4:36

that is regarded as being kind

4:38

of progressive and multicultural and accepting

4:40

of different communities. and after all

4:42

a country that has the largest

4:44

number of Holocaust survivors outside of

4:46

Israel. So you know this is

4:48

a country that really has embraced

4:50

its Jewish community historically and so

4:52

I think that it does feel

4:54

like a big shift in that

4:56

sense. Yeah why do you think

4:58

we've seen that shift Rebecca? What

5:00

do you think is leading to

5:02

this rise in anti-Semitism in Australia

5:04

specifically as opposed to the rest

5:06

of the world where unfortunately we've

5:08

also seen a rise? Yeah, as

5:10

you say, I don't think there's

5:12

much of Australia bucking any particular

5:14

global trend. You know, we're seeing,

5:16

unfortunately, a rise of anti-Semitism across

5:18

the world. But perhaps, you know,

5:20

Australia could be seen as a

5:22

potential hot point for these types

5:24

of hate crimes. Just because of

5:26

growing polarisation in society, politics is

5:28

becoming more and more fraught with

5:30

people going to the left and

5:32

extreme left and right wing. There's

5:34

also the fact that Australia has

5:36

had fewer large-scale kind of extremist

5:38

incidents in recent years. So potentially

5:40

there could be kind of a

5:42

feeling of a perceived lack of

5:44

vigilance there, which makes Australia potentially

5:46

easier to target. Obviously the Israel-Gaza

5:48

conflict, obviously support for Palestine doesn't.

5:50

automatically equal anti-Semitism but I think

5:52

there are still some extremists who

5:54

are using that movement to to

5:56

justify the anti-Semitic rhetoric and attacks.

5:58

And Emma it's social media that's

6:00

pumping a lot of that ideology

6:02

into people's phones isn't it? Yeah

6:04

there was a study recently which

6:06

came up with all sorts of

6:08

slightly startling stats about public awareness

6:10

of the Holocaust and other you

6:12

know anti-Semitic events and crimes and...

6:14

For example, 23% of UK adults

6:16

have encountered Holocaust denial online. For

6:18

those aged 18 to 29, 42%

6:20

of them came across it on

6:22

TikTok. And a third of young

6:24

adults in the UK are unable

6:27

to name any, to name Auschwitz,

6:29

of any of the other concentration

6:31

camps. So I think that there's

6:33

definitely a knowledge gap emerging when

6:35

it comes to these kind of

6:37

things and into that ignorance. an

6:39

issue now because we're going into

6:41

the first generation of people who

6:43

don't have any sort of familiar

6:45

links to you know World War

6:47

II and stuff like that like

6:49

for example my grandparents were young

6:51

children during World War II so

6:53

kids growing up now will have

6:55

no sort of like family connections

6:57

to you know what happened so

6:59

it's that it is being basically

7:01

becoming ancient history and sort of

7:03

like something that's being completely lost

7:05

to the past and that ignorance

7:07

whether willing or unwilling it can

7:09

lead to hate which can lead

7:11

to stuff like this? Yeah, I

7:13

mean you mentioned the 80th anniversary

7:15

of the liberation of Auschwitz on

7:17

Monday, Ari, and I suppose an

7:19

event like that actually does get,

7:21

you know, the Holocaust back in

7:23

the news and gets people talking

7:25

about it again and remembering or

7:27

learning for the first time as

7:29

Emma was alluding to, but... Yeah,

7:31

aside from the hundredth anniversary of

7:33

that event in 20 years' time,

7:35

at which point everyone who was

7:37

there will probably be dead, it's

7:39

hard to see how you continued

7:41

to keep that conversation going. It's

7:43

inevitable. That's how history works. It

7:45

does recede into the past. I

7:47

think that's right, and it was

7:49

notable that 10 years... ago at

7:51

the very same event at Auschwitz

7:53

there were 300 survivors who turned

7:55

up to mark the occasion and

7:57

this week there were only 50

7:59

and I think that is a

8:01

sign of the fact that there

8:03

is this very rapid decline of

8:05

the number of people who actually

8:07

lived through the thing that is

8:09

being spoken about and I think

8:11

that is reflected by some of

8:13

those statistics that Emma was talking

8:15

about. One of the other ones

8:17

that... came out of that same

8:19

study that really caught my eye

8:21

was that like the pure number

8:23

of young adults aged 18 to

8:26

29 who hadn't heard of the

8:28

Holocaust itself in France it was

8:30

46% of people in Germany 12%

8:32

I was just staggered by the

8:34

idea that in Germany it was

8:36

be possible that one in every

8:38

10 people or even more than

8:40

that haven't actually heard of the

8:42

Holocaust itself. So, you know, I

8:44

think that there is a lot

8:46

of knowledge that's being lost and

8:48

it is incumbent upon the, not

8:50

only the survivors, but people who

8:52

are the children of the survivors

8:54

and even people unconnected with it

8:56

to ensure that that whole pledge

8:58

of never again is able to

9:00

continue through the fact that people

9:02

know what it is that they're

9:04

trying to prevent in the first

9:06

place. It's easy, isn't it, to

9:08

say, oh never again, and to

9:10

say the right things and give

9:12

the right messages for politicians, but

9:14

you know, we had Elon Musk

9:16

doing an artsy salute last week,

9:18

we have his social network amplifying

9:20

disinformation deliberately, so who's telling him

9:22

not to? Like, you know, if

9:24

the problem is, as Emma suggests,

9:26

social media, politicians can say one

9:28

thing, a journalist can say one

9:30

thing, but that's not what people

9:32

are receiving, and it doesn't appear

9:34

they're changing, in any way to

9:36

stop the amplificationification of that message.

9:38

Yeah, it's definitely very concerning seeing

9:40

these things kind of escalate once

9:42

again, particularly because obviously Holocaust survivors

9:44

have told us that it's so

9:46

important that we never forget what

9:48

happened in the past so that

9:50

we can avoid history repeating itself.

9:52

But I think there's kind of

9:54

a bystander effect which happened in

9:56

the first place. You know, people

9:58

see it as potentially not their

10:00

problem or not their fight to

10:02

get into. And that's where. things

10:04

can escalate and snowball very very

10:06

quickly into a situation that none

10:08

of us really expected. We've seen

10:10

it before so we all have

10:12

to play our part to make

10:14

sure that that's something that never

10:16

occurs again. I did wonder as

10:18

well Emma and maybe this is

10:20

because I'm Jewish I think of

10:22

because Jews being a minority I

10:24

think of part of the issue

10:27

here being that most people don't

10:29

know a Jew or don't know

10:31

that they know a Jew even

10:33

if they do know a Jew.

10:35

And so as Rebecca... correctly said

10:37

earlier, you know, support for Palestine

10:39

doesn't mean that you're anti-Semitic. Equally,

10:41

you know, even if you oppose

10:43

Israel and thought it was right

10:45

for people to protest Israel, not

10:47

in this violent way, but to

10:49

protest, you know, being Jewish doesn't

10:51

mean you support Israel. And even

10:53

if you do support Israel, it

10:55

doesn't mean that you support the

10:57

current government or the techniques of

10:59

the war against Hamas. And maybe

11:01

that gets lost because, you know,

11:03

you know, basically these anti-Semitic sort

11:05

of conspiracies which are older than

11:07

any of us and they've been

11:09

allowed to flourish more than ever

11:11

because of the freedom of speech

11:13

that social media allows. And in

11:15

the end it's important to combat

11:17

that with solid historical information facts.

11:19

I mean you look in Australia

11:21

where the Albanese government have dedicated

11:23

more than four million dollars for

11:25

the National Holocaust Education Centre in

11:27

Canberra. It's important that, you know,

11:29

solid... action like that is taken

11:31

so that again sort of like

11:33

misinformation and sort of ill-meaning debates

11:35

can be counted. This is a

11:37

breaking new story as we record

11:39

Arian so obviously I haven't asked

11:41

you too much about this particular

11:43

incident and what might happen next

11:45

because it could be out of

11:47

date by the time people are

11:49

listening but it does look like

11:51

possibly there are bad actors funding

11:53

events like this in Australia at

11:55

the moment just tell us a

11:57

bit about that. Yeah I mean

11:59

that was a really cure of

12:01

the serious aspect of the small

12:03

amount of information that the Australian

12:05

Federal Police were willing to share

12:07

that they said foreign actors could

12:09

be behind some of the attacks

12:11

that are going on and it

12:13

could potentially be people who are

12:15

being paid to commit crimes on

12:17

behalf of whoever these foreign actors

12:19

are. Police lines of inquiry also

12:21

included the possibility that young people

12:23

in Australia aren't being paid per

12:26

se, but are also being radicalized

12:28

online to commit these anti-Semitism. attacks,

12:30

that's also a possibility, but the

12:32

Shadow Home Affairs Minister James Patterson.

12:34

kind of responded to the fact

12:36

that the Prime Minister had come

12:38

out and said that this same

12:40

thing that foreign actors may have

12:42

been behind it and he said

12:44

that it was a really gravely

12:47

serious claim. He said this either

12:49

means if true that a transnational

12:51

terrorist organization is sponsoring attacks in

12:53

Australia or potentially that a foreign

12:55

government is engaging in state-sponsored terror

12:57

targeting of the Jewish community and

12:59

both of those seem pretty upsetting possibilities

13:01

if they are true. But I

13:04

think, you know, as you say,

13:06

this is something that continues to

13:08

unfold and we don't have all

13:10

the information. And I think it

13:12

is important, just as a final

13:14

thought, to consider the fact that

13:16

even though there is this rising

13:18

number of attacks, they're still very

13:20

small and I read this. piece

13:22

of commentary from a guy called

13:24

Andrew Marcus who's a professor at

13:26

Monash University in Melbourne and he

13:28

said that this is still a

13:30

small segment a minute segment he

13:33

said that's causing fear and

13:35

anxiety and headlines and I

13:37

think that's really important to

13:39

consider that we're not necessarily

13:41

talking about a wide-scale radicalization.

13:43

It is true that intolerance

13:45

towards Jewish people is going

13:47

up but it's but it's

13:49

minor as compared to something

13:51

like the possibility that someone

13:53

was about to blow up a caravan

13:55

in a part of Sydney that was

13:57

popular with Jewish people. So yeah but

13:59

then... But by the same token,

14:01

I mean, maybe we've fallen down

14:03

this trap as well, because we

14:05

instantly start talking about social media

14:08

and misinformation. You're right. The actual

14:10

reality of exploding things and killing

14:12

people. That's the thing that the

14:14

police have to deal with first,

14:16

isn't it? That's the thing the

14:18

government have to deal with first.

14:20

You know, funding a Holocaust center

14:23

is something that might stop future

14:25

radicalism. Are you confident that they

14:27

are on top of the terrorism

14:29

beat? Not necessarily, kind of a

14:31

space that has been occupied by

14:33

politicians who some of whom seem

14:35

to be keen to get names

14:37

involved in what is a big

14:40

story, but also you don't have

14:42

to look too far to think

14:44

that this could have been a

14:46

terrorist incident potentially, but I think

14:48

we do need to wait for

14:50

a bit for more information before

14:52

we leap to terrorism specifically. And

14:55

Rebecca, for the Jewish community in

14:57

Australia, how are they reacting to

14:59

this seeming rising trend for anti-Semitic

15:01

attacks, whether they're carried out eventually

15:03

or scuppered? Yes, well as you

15:05

identify, it's not just this event

15:07

with the caravan, you know, we've

15:09

seen other anti-Semitic acts taking place,

15:12

but I think what's really positive

15:14

is that interfaith communities are joining

15:16

together in Australia to condemn this

15:18

violence openly and to urge solidarity

15:20

between them. We've seen kind of

15:22

small scale events taking place where

15:24

the whole community is standing openly

15:27

with Jewish Australians, which is really

15:29

positive. And from a grassroots level,

15:31

you know, community leaders calling for

15:33

harsher penalties for anti-Semitic. crimes. So

15:35

I think seeing the support that

15:37

Jewish Australians have on the ground

15:39

is really important and hopefully that

15:42

will reflect in the actions that

15:44

politicians take next. Okay, up next

15:46

why what's happening in Africa underground

15:48

has an impact on what's

15:50

in your pocket now. That's

15:52

after this. Okay

15:57

Rebecca you're up next what do

16:00

you think this week should remembered

16:02

for. How much blood is in

16:04

your phone? Free Congo, Free Sudan,

16:06

amazing bit of wrap in there

16:09

from a young boy on the

16:11

streets in the Democratic Republic of

16:13

Congo and it's really amazing when

16:15

you see the footage because he's

16:18

clearly about 13 years old, shared

16:20

by Papi Orion on Tiktok earlier

16:22

this month. Rebecca what's the story,

16:25

what's been happening this week in

16:27

the DRC? Well, the first thing

16:29

many of us will have done

16:31

this morning is pick up our

16:34

phones, but what you might not

16:36

have realized is that in doing

16:38

so, you might be indirectly contributing

16:40

to a conflict that has come

16:43

to a head this week, thousands

16:45

of miles away in the Democratic

16:47

Republic of Congo. The fight for

16:50

the country that is rich in

16:52

minerals that make their way into

16:54

our tech has reached boiling point

16:56

this week with the invasion of

16:59

rebel groups into certain cities. So

17:01

what's going on and are we

17:03

all complicit? Okay, good questions. What

17:05

is going on? Let's say we

17:08

all complicit. There are minds, aren't

17:10

they, for important minerals in the

17:12

DRC? And that's been an area

17:14

of fighting for some time. What's

17:17

new? Well, exactly. I mean, the

17:19

history of the Democratic Republic of

17:21

Congo is quite complex and difficult

17:24

to kind of get into. But

17:26

essentially, the primary culprit of this

17:28

ongoing conflict is the rich natural

17:30

resources that are found within that

17:33

particular country. The DRC contains an

17:35

estimated 24 trillion dollars in untapped

17:37

mineral resources. And essentially what's going

17:39

on is that armed groups are

17:42

fine. in the eastern region of

17:44

the country over power, land and

17:46

resources. They want to be able

17:49

to control the areas where the

17:51

minerals are and make profit from

17:53

that. So this has culminated this

17:55

week in a particularly influential armed

17:58

group called M23 who have now

18:00

taken control of Goma which is

18:02

a key city in the Democratic

18:04

Republic of Congo. Okay so minerals

18:07

then, Emma what minerals and how

18:09

do we use them in our

18:11

technology products? Yes, so then not

18:14

minerals that one might sort of

18:16

immediately know, things like Colton, Wolfram,

18:18

cassitterites. Stuff that's really not very

18:20

familiar to layperson off the bat,

18:23

but they're important minerals in some

18:25

of our most used items in

18:27

everyday life. They're crucial in the

18:29

production of batteries for technologies such

18:32

as phones, laptops. tablets, stuff like

18:34

that. So they are incredibly valuable

18:36

in the modern world despite the

18:38

fact that their names might not

18:41

be quite so familiar. And what

18:43

about M23 as a group area?

18:45

Can you give us an overview

18:48

of who they are, who these

18:50

people are, who now may have

18:52

control of that supply chain? Yeah,

18:54

so the roots of the M23

18:57

movement in the DRC are deeply

18:59

embedded in the region's colonial history

19:01

and also those really long-standing ethnic

19:03

tensions between the Tutsi and Hutu

19:06

populations. And that's because during Belgian

19:08

colonial rule in the early to

19:10

mid-20th century, I'm sorry I'm going

19:13

a bit further back than you

19:15

might have anticipated with the question

19:17

you asked. But anyway, around that

19:19

time Tutsis were favoured over Hutos

19:22

by the Belgians. that created this

19:24

huge division that not only deepened

19:26

after Rwanda gained independence in 1962

19:28

but even after that time tensions

19:31

just continued to build and in

19:33

1994 the Rwandan genocide saw who

19:35

to extremists massacre an estimated 800,000

19:37

tutsis and the resulting instability then

19:40

sucked in neighboring countries to devastating

19:42

effect notoriously in the 1990s when

19:44

two huge conflicts that have since

19:47

been dubbed Africa's world war. resulted

19:49

in the deaths of millions. of

19:51

people and in the years since

19:53

Rwanda has continued to support various

19:56

rebel groups in the DRC's eastern

19:58

regions often fairly plainly to secure

20:00

mineral resources which brings us to

20:02

M23 which was your question after

20:05

all. So the M23 movement was

20:07

named after a March 23 2009

20:09

peace agreement which was intended to

20:12

integrate Tutsi's into the Congolese army's

20:14

ranks. But many of those soldiers

20:16

ultimately mutinyid accusing the DRC government

20:18

of failing to uphold the terms

20:21

of that agreement, and then they

20:23

went rogue. And today, M23 continues

20:25

to operate in the east of

20:27

the DRC, fueled by both those

20:30

ethnic rivalries and very obviously by

20:32

Rwanda as well, which is using

20:34

M23 to covertly gain access to

20:36

the region's mineral wealth. So that's

20:39

kind of the story that's underpinning

20:41

the whole business of this latest

20:43

flare-up of violence. Okay, good potted

20:46

history. I mean we heard the

20:48

rap there, Rebecca, that you played

20:50

for us and the boy kind

20:52

of pleading for peace in his

20:55

lyrics. What do the people of

20:57

the DRC want? Because presumably there

20:59

is some support for some of

21:01

these groups. Is it divided or

21:04

is there a clear democratic alternative?

21:06

It's hard to say really because

21:08

the conflict has been going on

21:11

for so long that essentially most

21:13

of the population just want peace.

21:15

I mean we're looking at massive

21:17

displacement as of early... 2024, it's

21:20

estimated that some 7.1 million people

21:22

have been forcibly displaced from their

21:24

homes. Civilians are undoubtedly bearing the

21:26

brunt of this conflict, whether it's

21:29

facing threats of murder, sexual violence,

21:31

human rights abuses. As we heard

21:33

there from the boy who was

21:35

wrapping, a lot of children are

21:38

so involved in this. They are

21:40

the miners themselves going down into

21:42

these very dangerous environments to mine.

21:45

these minerals but not getting any

21:47

health and safety. getting very little

21:49

pay, sometimes just pennies a day

21:51

for the really dangerous work that

21:54

they're doing. So there's a lot

21:56

of conflict obviously and I think

21:58

that the main objective of the

22:00

people of Congo is just for

22:03

peace. And that's part of the

22:05

reason that they have the name

22:07

blood minerals, these minerals like blood

22:10

diamonds. Just talk as to exactly

22:12

what that means. Well essentially what

22:14

is happening is that there is

22:16

a booming informal mining sector which

22:19

is known as artisanal mining that

22:21

is happening within the DRC. The

22:23

artisanal mining sounds nice doesn't it?

22:25

Sounds bespoke. It does, it does

22:28

but it's actually it's actually very

22:30

very awful so essentially artisanal mining

22:32

is what we consider to be

22:34

freelance work. Right. turn up with

22:37

a shovel basically and get yourself

22:39

something else. Exactly, yeah. Very hazardous

22:41

techniques, really kind of basic tools

22:44

and as I mentioned extremely low

22:46

pay. But this is one of

22:48

the few sources of income that

22:50

is available to some of the

22:53

world's most poorest people. It's a

22:55

good way for these mining companies

22:57

to kind of boost production and

22:59

obviously get more profit by doing

23:02

so. the effects on those who

23:04

are mining are obviously devastating. Yeah,

23:06

I mean just looking at the

23:09

pictures online when this is reported

23:11

in the British media, you know

23:13

there are a few photos of

23:15

people in these artisanal mines and

23:18

yeah the conditions are worse than

23:20

you'd expect in a mine in

23:22

Wales or Yorkshire a hundred years

23:24

ago. You know there is no

23:27

equipment for safety, there are no

23:29

helmets. They are literally with their

23:31

bare hands going down ladders into

23:33

dangerous places where they could be

23:36

buried alive. Yeah, it's impossible to

23:38

overstate just how dangerous some of

23:40

this stuff is. And I mean,

23:43

it really just sort of throws

23:45

into sharp focus, you know, the

23:47

tech companies which profit from these

23:49

minerals being mined to make batches

23:52

of their products. They will talk

23:54

about wanting to have, you know,

23:56

ethical practices, you know, be environmentally

23:58

conscious, but the reality. these often

24:01

very young children really being sent

24:03

into incredibly dangerous scenarios and

24:05

I mean the Ministry of

24:07

Mining in the in the

24:09

DRC recommends that managed to

24:11

dig no deeper than 30

24:13

meters below the surface but you

24:15

know reports say that they can

24:17

sometimes go as deep as 200

24:19

meters in order to get the

24:21

the resources it's incredibly dangerous and

24:24

it's something that's having an impact

24:26

on all our lives because it's

24:28

to supply the demand that we

24:30

have for tech products. Yeah, so

24:32

let's talk about that then, Aaron,

24:34

because these are the biggest wealthiest

24:36

companies in the world that we're

24:38

talking about here. You know, this

24:40

isn't some mum and pup company

24:42

that makes some business-to-business, you know,

24:44

pocket calculator and they wouldn't be

24:46

able to trace every element from

24:48

the companies they buy from. We're

24:50

talking about Apple, Microsoft, Tesla. Why

24:52

can't they trace what they're

24:54

exploiting children? Well, they claim that

24:57

they can and they publish reports

24:59

which indicate that they do and

25:02

I think that there is a

25:04

certain amount of truth to what

25:06

they publish, but I think that

25:09

there's many many places along the

25:11

line where information can be fabricated

25:14

and become confused and actually it's

25:16

not always in everyone's interests to

25:18

know exactly where all of the

25:21

minerals that go into our technology

25:23

come from. And tech companies do

25:25

now face this real growing scrutiny

25:28

over their supply chains and particularly

25:30

the demand for rare earth minerals

25:33

that is fueling all of this

25:35

conflict after all. And the DRC

25:37

itself has actually sued Apple's subsidiaries

25:40

in Brussels. and Paris, basically alleging

25:42

that its latest iPhones contain minerals

25:45

that were literally smuggled from within

25:47

the conflict zones within the DRC.

25:49

And if those cases proceed, there

25:52

is going to be a real

25:54

question of what's called source separation

25:57

because one of the things

25:59

that Rwanda for example, claims is

26:01

that it mines its own minerals.

26:03

And so, you know, it's got

26:05

plenty of minerals bound up in

26:07

the stuff that it's exporting. But

26:09

the question is, how much of

26:11

that output is legally sourced from

26:13

its own mines rather than smuggled

26:15

in from conflict zones in the

26:17

DRC? And I think that is

26:20

going to be a thing that

26:22

comes out only if these court

26:24

cases proceed. What does responsible mineral

26:26

mining look like? Rebecca is there

26:28

an example or does it all

26:30

come from within the conflict zones

26:32

ultimately? In the south of the

26:34

DRC there's cobalt mining which is

26:36

not cobalt is not considered to

26:38

be a blood mineral because for

26:40

the most part it's they believe

26:42

that it's ethically sourced but at

26:44

the same in the same breath

26:46

there's a lot of child labour

26:49

that goes into that kind of

26:51

thing so I don't think there's

26:53

necessarily any particular example of... totally

26:55

ethical sourcing of anything when it

26:57

comes to these these minerals. It's

26:59

just about companies doing the best

27:01

that they can to have the

27:03

most ethical practices but as we

27:05

as we can see through the

27:07

conflicts that are happening within this

27:09

region it's it's all but impossible

27:11

really. Do you have sympathy then

27:13

Emma with the tech companies who

27:15

will say that it's impossible? Like

27:18

we'll do our best and we

27:20

will produce ethical reports but actually

27:22

there's only so much we can

27:24

do because it isn't possible to

27:26

track everything in where it's come

27:28

from. As a general rule I

27:30

don't think it's a good idea

27:32

to have sympathy with giant tech

27:34

companies at all. You do have

27:36

the worst internet out of everybody

27:38

here. Yes. I mean there is

27:40

an issue in that there is

27:42

so much... of this material that

27:44

comes from the DRC which is

27:47

a country which has been absolutely

27:49

ripped apart by you know civil

27:51

war famine as as I had

27:53

mentioned I mean there's an estimate

27:55

is up to 24 trillion dollars

27:57

worth of untapped minerals in the

27:59

DRC which is a country which

28:01

has by recent safety children estimates

28:03

25 million people in food poverty

28:05

outbreaks of things like monkey pox.

28:07

It's one of those things that

28:09

this is a country that is

28:11

so important to the world's economy,

28:13

but is in such a state.

28:15

But of course it's in such

28:18

a state party because of Western

28:20

colonialism. Yes, there is obviously an

28:22

element to which these companies have

28:24

to go to the Democratic Republic

28:26

of Congo and all the issues

28:28

that exist there. given the power

28:30

and influence a lot of these

28:32

and money that a lot of

28:34

these companies have you feel that

28:36

they could be doing a lot

28:38

more to try and help. Is

28:40

there a way it could become

28:42

a positive though, Aryan? I mean

28:44

if you think about the California

28:47

Gold Rush or the Gulf states

28:49

and oil, I mean actually is

28:51

there a future for this region

28:53

of Africa that actually reaps the

28:55

rewards of being the world centre

28:57

for these minerals that we all

28:59

depend on? Possibly, but I think

29:01

first you would have to really

29:03

get the conflicts in the east

29:05

of the DRC under control. The

29:07

economists had this really interesting feature

29:09

this week which was explaining what's

29:11

going on via the analogy of

29:13

what went on in Donbas in

29:16

2014 when Vladimir Putin seized a

29:18

chunk of Eastern Ukraine while pretending

29:20

not to and then used local

29:22

separatist forces that Russia after all

29:24

had armed and controlled as a

29:26

cover and they were claiming that

29:28

they were defending ethnic Russians from

29:30

persecution by Ukrainian bigots or whatever.

29:32

is adopting really really similar tactics

29:34

in eastern Congo with the M23

29:36

rebels being armed and supported and

29:38

directed directly by his regime and

29:40

they claim too that they're protecting

29:42

Congolese tutsis from supposed persecution, but

29:45

actually what they're doing is they're

29:47

seizing territory. This is undeclared war

29:49

that they're waging basically, and actually

29:51

some Western diplomats are afraid that

29:53

Kagame's ambitions may extend beyond Goma

29:55

and possibly that he wants to

29:57

overthrow the Congolese government itself. And

29:59

that's not only illegal, but also

30:01

as the economist was pointing out,

30:03

it signals this really troubling erosion

30:05

of the international order and a

30:07

sign that the global taboo where

30:09

you can't just take other people's

30:11

territory is disintegrating. So I think

30:14

you know first of all kagame

30:16

has to be got under control

30:18

the business of M23 running rampant

30:20

across the whole east of the

30:22

DRC needs to be reigned in

30:24

and then maybe you can decide

30:26

how to divvy up the the

30:28

spoils in a way that's fair

30:30

to the people who are sitting

30:32

on that land. In the meantime

30:34

though Rebecca... What can we as

30:36

citizens, as consumers, what can we

30:38

do about this? It's almost inevitable

30:40

that we are kind of complicit

30:43

in some way, right? I mean,

30:45

these are huge multinational tech corporations.

30:47

It's not impossible, but it's very

30:49

difficult to buy a product that

30:51

is not Apple or Samsung or

30:53

one of these giant companies just

30:55

for ease of use. But I

30:57

suppose... The only thing that we

30:59

can do really is to conduct

31:01

our own research. It is obviously

31:03

a labor-intensive process that we could

31:05

avoid. But if we're concerned about

31:07

what's going on in the DRC,

31:09

as... all global citizens should be.

31:12

It's about just taking the time

31:14

to look at and investigate what's

31:16

going on globally and kind of

31:18

make our decisions from there. At

31:20

the moment it seems like we

31:22

will never be able to completely

31:24

divest from what's going on in

31:26

that particular region, but hopefully there's

31:28

a path that can be charted

31:30

forwards in the future that we

31:32

can all be on board with.

31:34

Yeah, or just don't upgrade your

31:36

phone so often. I know I'm

31:38

about to link into some adverts,

31:41

but I mean seriously, stop buying

31:43

things you don't need. Up next,

31:45

breathe in, breathe out, get banned,

31:47

the chain is about to come

31:49

off a controversial tactic in professional

31:51

cycling. That's after this. Okay Emma,

31:53

you're finishing the show, what do

31:55

you think this week should be

31:57

remembered for? This week, the controversial

31:59

practice... of carbon monoxide breathing may

32:01

take its final breath. My opinion

32:03

on this hasn't changed. For as

32:05

long as we're talking about the

32:07

sport that we're talking about and

32:10

the history of the sport has

32:12

and the individuals we're still involved

32:14

in this sport, then the ease

32:16

and the temptation of what you

32:18

could switch from measuring to performance

32:20

enhancing. is all too simple at

32:22

the moment. Amateur cyclist Ronan McLaughlin

32:24

on Cycling Channel the Escape Collective.

32:26

Incidentally Ronan holds the fastest ever

32:28

time for ever resting, which is

32:30

when you climb a hill again

32:32

and again until you get to

32:34

the height of Everest. Anyway, Emma,

32:36

what was he talking about there?

32:39

So Ron McLaughlin as well as

32:41

being an amateur cyclist, he's also

32:43

a journalist for the Escape Collective.

32:45

And last... Yeah, but the Tour

32:47

de France did an exclusive story

32:49

about carbon monoxide breathing, which is

32:51

a technique used by, has been

32:53

used in endurance sports for quite

32:55

a long time, which is basically

32:57

athletes taking small amounts of carbon

32:59

monoxide to help emulate the conditions

33:01

in which air is hard to

33:03

breathe, such as the high altitude,

33:05

which obviously is a factor in

33:07

cycling events and also to can

33:10

be used to more easily monitor

33:12

hemoglobin in the bloodstream, allow for

33:14

the cycling teams to monitor their

33:16

health and you know blood flow

33:18

of their for their athletes. But

33:20

this week... potentially by the time

33:22

that you listen to this podcast,

33:24

but currently as we record it,

33:26

the world's cycling governing body, the

33:28

UCI are expected. to vote for

33:30

a ban on carbon monoxide rebreathing

33:32

equipment being used in the sport.

33:34

Okay, I mean just to go

33:36

back to basics for a second

33:39

because I think for a lot

33:41

of us the words carbon monoxide

33:43

rebreathing are particularly ominous. I thought

33:45

carbon monoxide was poisonous. Like that's

33:47

the thing you're absolutely supposed to

33:49

never breathe isn't it? Yes, and

33:51

I mean I hadn't heard of

33:53

this actually until this week and

33:55

there was a piece explained. piece

33:57

on the BBC's website by my

33:59

colleague Matt Warwick which really did

34:01

a good job of sort of

34:03

laying out exactly what this is.

34:05

Yes carbon dioxide is incredibly dangerous

34:08

but under very controlled circumstances and

34:10

with specialist equipment it can be

34:12

used to help monitor things in

34:14

you know endurance athletes things like

34:16

like say like hemoglobin levels and

34:18

can also be used to help

34:20

with like say with training. for

34:22

athletes who are going to be

34:24

competing in difficult conditions such as

34:26

at high altitude, you know, cycling

34:28

for huge lengths of time, but

34:30

obviously it is dangerous and there

34:32

is concern that it has been

34:34

pushed to dangerous lengths by certain

34:37

teams which is why the UCI

34:39

are being encouraged and quite possibly

34:41

will move to Ban it. Ari

34:43

another UCI being clear on exactly

34:45

what it is they're planning on

34:47

banning because if it's always been

34:49

part of the training regime then

34:51

it might be tricky to suddenly

34:53

say you can't do that when

34:55

you've been doing it for decades.

34:57

Yeah I think that's not clear

34:59

and one of the companies that

35:01

makes these carbon monoxide rebreathing machines.

35:03

Dattalo Health told cycling news that

35:06

really there needs to be much

35:08

more clarity about what's being called

35:10

to be banned. And the CEO

35:12

of Dattalo Health, Caston Lundbe, who's

35:14

also a professor at the University

35:16

of Southern Denmark, said that while

35:18

he agrees that there should be

35:20

like advice against like people breathing

35:22

in carbon monoxide, he said that

35:24

basically the use of carbon monoxide

35:26

as a medical diagnostic tool is

35:28

very different and you know it

35:30

shouldn't be banned because there's a

35:32

distinction between those two uses and

35:35

the truth is that like lots

35:37

of cycling teams have been recalcitrant

35:39

about offering up information about how

35:41

they use use carbon monoxide rebreathing

35:43

to get any sort of effect

35:45

or to gather information, which tends

35:47

to be what at least they

35:49

would say if they even confess

35:51

to it. But, you know, the

35:53

question of whether more transparency would

35:55

help, again, going to the Dattalo

35:57

CEO, he said that basically because

35:59

there's so few devices in the

36:01

world, they can see how they're

36:04

being used in real time. So

36:06

any malpractice would be very, very

36:08

clear to see. And so in

36:10

his... opinion, the use of these

36:12

devices is all above board. So

36:14

I think there's, I think a

36:16

certain amount of clarity on what

36:18

is being called for, given that,

36:20

you know, carbon monoxide exists in

36:22

the air in any case, is

36:24

certainly something that would provide a

36:26

bit of clarity. But I think

36:28

that in general, there's not even

36:30

consensus that using carbon monoxide rebreathing

36:33

will have massively positive effects. like

36:35

altitude training because there's just so

36:37

little information. All right, as you

36:39

say, I guess we do all

36:41

breathe carbon dioxide a bit, but

36:43

in terms of how this actually

36:45

impacts us all, Rebecca, perhaps really

36:47

the issue here, is that this

36:49

is yet another story affecting the

36:51

world of cycling. Why is it

36:53

that cycling, perhaps more than other

36:55

sports, always seems to attract these

36:57

kinds of controversies? Yeah, it's just,

36:59

I don't know a lot about

37:02

cycling if I'm being totally honest,

37:04

but any... time I hear something

37:06

about cycling it's always something controversial

37:08

particularly after the whole Lance Armstrong

37:10

saga that was so well played

37:12

out within the media you'd think

37:14

that this sport would want to

37:16

kind of clean up its act

37:18

and make sure that there is

37:20

absolutely no room for misinterpretation whatsoever

37:22

they don't seem to be doing

37:24

that and I can't work out

37:26

why if we look cost our

37:28

minds back to Lance Armstrong they

37:30

said that he ran the most

37:33

sophisticated professional and successful doping doping

37:35

program that sport has ever seen.

37:37

That is such a black mark

37:39

to have upon the sport of

37:41

cycling. Okay, maybe carbon monoxide rebreathing

37:43

is above board, or so they

37:45

say, but it's the grey areas,

37:47

it's the room for misinterpretation that

37:49

I would hope that they would

37:51

want to clear up to make

37:53

sure that cycling can be enjoyed

37:55

as a sport where we don't

37:57

believe that everyone is doping or

37:59

taking blood transfusions or injecting stuff

38:02

into themselves to make sure that

38:04

they get a fraction of a

38:06

second faster than their competitors. It

38:08

just seems all a bit murky

38:10

and not worthwhile at all if

38:12

we want cycling to be followed

38:14

in an honest and open way.

38:16

I think it's interesting that you

38:18

make that point Rebecca because I

38:20

think that that's kind of what

38:22

the UCI are doing. I think

38:24

that's why they're trying to be

38:26

active in banning carbon dioxide rebreating

38:28

which... is one of those grey

38:31

areas that you know such some

38:33

teams obviously use and it's perfectly

38:35

above board and others are pushing

38:37

a bit far but I think

38:39

that the UCI really are moving

38:41

to sort of like to get

38:43

to try and get rid of

38:45

this because they are so hyper

38:47

aware of how the sport is

38:49

perceived. So are they overcompensating actually

38:51

because of Lance Armstrong? I think

38:53

that there's a potential that that

38:55

is what's happening. particularly when it

38:57

comes to doping and particularly when

39:00

it comes to blood doping, cycling

39:02

has such a poor reputation and

39:04

such a touchy reputation. I mean,

39:06

Rebecca is writing that the Lance

39:08

Armstrong case is the most famous

39:10

sports cheating case of all time.

39:12

And I think that that's partly

39:14

why the ban looks like it's

39:16

going to come in because the

39:18

UCI are so hyper aware and

39:20

so sort of desperate to clean

39:22

up their acts that they are

39:24

willing to push this through despite,

39:26

you know, it being a... a

39:29

debated topic. But actually Arian if

39:31

it was all declared I mean

39:33

I understand if it's not declared

39:35

then you don't know who's taken

39:37

what but if it's all declared

39:39

and you say yes our athletes

39:41

do carbon monoxide rebreathing on this

39:43

team that's one of the things

39:45

we do in that sense is

39:47

it really any different to them

39:49

taking vitamins I mean you know

39:51

elite athletes push their bodies where

39:53

do you draw the line? I

39:55

think that's a really interesting question

39:58

and actually I suppose that's what

40:00

the doping agencies are constantly wrestling

40:02

with you know what is a legitimate

40:04

use of training apparatus and what gives

40:06

an athlete an unfair advantage and what

40:08

chemicals are they allowed to ingest like

40:10

can they have a cup of coffee

40:12

before they have a race or can

40:14

they not? Rebecca you've just got your

40:17

pen out are you writing down a

40:19

list of emitted steroids? Yeah I'm making

40:21

a making a list and checking it twice.

40:23

What were you thinking Rebecca what was

40:25

the inspiration that struck you there while

40:27

sorry it was talking? I just figured

40:29

you know it's easy to lie. You

40:31

can say that you're doing carbon dioxide

40:34

rebreathing and it's all above board, but

40:36

you could be doing something underneath. Like

40:38

Lawrence Armstrong said he was taking, or

40:40

they discovered that he was taking certain

40:43

drugs and he said, oh no, actually

40:45

it's just for saddlesaw sword, don't worry

40:47

about it, it's fine. And meanwhile all

40:49

of this nefarious stuff was going on

40:51

in the background. What struck me when

40:54

Arion was talking is that it's easy

40:56

to kind of manipulate the information that

40:58

is being going on underneath. underneath very

41:00

easily. Well, it's also the issue, Emma,

41:03

of whether it actually matters to fans.

41:05

I mean, that's sort of the most

41:07

important thing, isn't it? I know for

41:09

cyclists and athletes, they're worried about the

41:11

international league tables and their place in history,

41:13

but for fans, does it matter? In the world

41:15

of cycling, do fans say, oh, this doesn't

41:17

count because they took that? Tour

41:19

de France, the top two finishers,

41:22

the eventual winner Táiléz Pákacao, who's

41:24

now won three Tour de France,

41:26

and the Véinigar, the Slovenian and

41:28

Danish respectively. So I do apologize

41:31

to the people of those countries.

41:33

So you did a good job.

41:35

Thank you. But they both say

41:37

that they did carbon dioxide rebuthing

41:39

and it's... One of those things that it

41:42

was slightly mishandled for example poker car in

41:44

an interview initially Denied that he did it

41:46

his team then clarified that it was and

41:48

then he was like oh I was answering

41:50

a question in a second language So I

41:52

wasn't I wasn't I wasn't sure what was

41:54

being asked which you know It's it's a

41:57

plausible excuse whereas being guys did it and

41:59

then is basically spoken out against you

42:01

know the more aggressive use of

42:03

it you know pushing the boundaries

42:05

to you know try and gain

42:07

a competitive advantage and I think

42:09

that if you've got argue with

42:11

the two best cyclist male cyclists

42:13

in the world right now who

42:15

are both admitting to this and

42:17

embroiled you know in slightly controversial

42:19

things around it it's another PR

42:21

nightmare for the sport and it's

42:23

another thing which allow sort of

42:25

fans to be like, see these

42:28

incredible athletes doing these remarkable things.

42:30

I mean, winning the Tour de

42:32

France is... You've still got to

42:34

be really good at cycling. Yes,

42:36

exactly. To say the least, I

42:38

mean, it is arguably the, again,

42:40

it's arguing the toughest sport, you

42:42

know, tough sporting event to win.

42:44

And then this great achievement gets

42:46

left with a question mark next

42:48

to it. But then that's the

42:50

thing about cycling, isn't it, Aria.

42:52

a second. Yeah, and I think

42:54

that sort of highlights the slight

42:56

absurdity of why we focus so

42:58

much on doping versus the other

43:00

kinds of inequalities that we tolerate

43:02

in sport. We all know that

43:04

like a nation's Olympic success correlates

43:06

pretty directly with A, its population

43:08

and B, it's GDP. You know,

43:11

richer nations can afford to have

43:13

like coaches who have who can

43:15

supply the best diets and get

43:17

the best equipment and all of

43:19

that. and equally when you have

43:21

a country with lots of people

43:23

then you can have things like

43:25

you know you can scan for

43:27

people with unfair sort of bodily

43:29

advantages like hypermobile knees and ankles

43:31

paired with big feet and hands

43:33

that you know that exist in

43:35

the case of the British multi-medlest

43:37

Adam Petey and help him go

43:39

faster and if you have a

43:41

bigger population you're more likely to

43:43

have people with those sorts of

43:45

advantages. But I think that the

43:47

reason that people do focus fairly

43:49

on doping is because kind of

43:51

cracking down on steroids is partly

43:54

concern for the athletes themselves and

43:56

I think particularly with something like

43:58

carbon monoxide certainly when I started.

44:00

I was like, there is easily,

44:02

like there's such an obvious way

44:04

that this can go wrong, where

44:06

people, you know, who suddenly go

44:08

outside of the realms of the

44:10

very scrutinized doctor who's helping them

44:12

do it in a controlled way

44:14

and do it just a little

44:16

bit too much. And there they

44:18

are breathing carbon monoxide. You know,

44:20

we know that it's poison. And

44:22

I think that people do have

44:24

a concern for... athletes health increasingly

44:26

and you can see that in

44:28

you know the way that people

44:30

are increasing increasingly attentive to concussion

44:32

in football or in the NFL

44:35

for example and we know that

44:37

people like elite athletes often come

44:39

out with serious body problems and

44:41

I think that this is another

44:43

area that it's worth kind of

44:45

protecting people you know we do

44:47

we want to push people so

44:49

far that they actually sustain injuries

44:51

that are going to haunt them

44:53

for the rest of their life

44:55

or even end their lives early.

44:57

And I think that's part of

44:59

the issue here. You know what

45:01

I think they should do? Big

45:03

wall of carbon monoxide detectors at

45:05

the finish line. PPP disqualified, solved

45:07

it. Or your bridge is open.

45:09

Thank you to Arian and to

45:11

Emma and to Rebecca and thank

45:13

you for listening. You can follow

45:15

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45:34

been Olly Man. audio and until

45:36

we meet again to unwrap next

45:38

week, bye bye.