0:00

It's the weekending Friday the 7th of

0:02

March and this is the week

0:04

unwrapped. In the past seven days

0:06

we've seen the US pausing intelligence

0:09

sharing with Ukraine. following an explosive

0:11

confrontation in the Oval Office, JD

0:13

Vance rowing back after insulting British

0:15

troops in an interview with Fox

0:17

News, and Enora winning Best Picture

0:20

at the Academy Awards. You can

0:22

read all you need to know

0:24

about everything that matters in the

0:26

Week magazine, but we're here to

0:28

bring you some stories that passed

0:31

under the radar this week. Big

0:33

news not making headlines right now,

0:35

but with repercussions for all

0:37

our lives. I'm Ollie Mann, and let's unwrap

0:39

the week. And

0:42

joining me today from the week's

0:44

digital team, it's Rebecca Evans. We

0:46

welcome back BBC sport journalist Emma

0:48

Smith and we just can't keep

0:51

her away. It's journalist and campaigner

0:53

Elizabeth Carr Ellis. Also this week,

0:55

Glastonbury have announced their headliners. It's

0:58

going to be Olivia Rodrigo, Charlie

1:00

XX and the 1975. If you

1:02

were an honorary Evis for the

1:04

day. Rebecca, who would you pick

1:07

as your Glastonbury headliner for 2025?

1:09

She's done it before, but it has to

1:11

be Beyonce. Has to be? Wow,

1:13

you're killing the conversation stone dead. Emma,

1:16

do you disagree? Good choice. I'd probably

1:18

throw in Lady Gargao into there as

1:20

well. Also, if you could add in

1:22

to that lineup, they've got, like, Chapelvo,

1:25

and you've basically got the modern day

1:27

perfect, sort of queer line-up, and I'm

1:29

perfectly okay okay with that. I'm perfectly

1:31

okay with that. Oh, I'm old school. I would

1:34

go back to the Peshmo, or Barry Manalo.

1:36

Oh, pause the podcast right here. I could

1:38

do a half hour chat with you just

1:40

about how the Barry Manalo gig last year

1:43

was the best thing I've ever seen anywhere.

1:45

Manalo for the legend slot, please. Okay, Rebecca,

1:47

you're up first. What do you think this

1:49

week should be remembered for? In a

1:52

world full of noise, a quiet revolution

1:54

is offering a soothing solution. Okay,

2:00

hold still, hold still. Can

2:02

you look up for me

2:04

so I can get under

2:07

your eyes? Horrendous. Kerry,

2:09

ASMR, a tick-tocker,

2:11

a tick-tocker, performing some

2:14

intense mouth sounds on Monday.

2:16

Rebecca, why did you make

2:18

me listen to that? Well

2:20

if you've ever found the

2:22

world overwhelming or over stimulating

2:24

this kind of sensory online

2:26

content might just help you.

2:28

In fact there's a new

2:30

landmark report that's been released

2:32

this week that shows more

2:34

young people are turning to

2:36

content like this known as

2:39

ASMR to combat a struggle

2:41

with real-life interaction. So whether

2:43

it's listening to spit painting

2:45

like that... hair braiding or

2:47

playing with slime, these soothing

2:49

sounds might just be a

2:51

replacement for face-to-face connection. And that's

2:53

the new bit isn't it because ASML has

2:55

been around for I don't know a decade

2:57

or so hasn't it as a kind of

3:00

burgeoning trend but I've not seen this link

3:02

before where they say the reason people are

3:04

looking into it is because well frankly they

3:06

find the real world harder to deal with

3:09

than they used to. Well yeah, exactly.

3:11

ASMR has been kind of a

3:13

concept for about 15 years now.

3:15

It's short for autonomous sensory meridian

3:18

response. Try saying that three times

3:20

fast. Whisper it and you've got

3:22

yourself an online hit. Exactly.

3:24

It's a sensory phenomenon that

3:26

essentially aims to calm, nurture

3:29

or soothe people by inducing

3:31

this kind of tingling feeling

3:33

or sensation that certain subsections

3:36

of the population get when

3:38

listening to interesting... But this

3:40

specific study has essentially found

3:42

a close correlation between age

3:45

and sensitivity to both social

3:47

and sensory stimuli. So it's

3:49

essentially saying that younger people

3:52

are more likely to find

3:54

the world overstimulating and want

3:56

to shield themselves from external

3:59

noise. but this type of noise

4:01

this ASMR is what is particularly interesting.

4:03

Are you an ASMR consumer Emma? I'm

4:05

asking you because you introduced me to the

4:08

work of low-fi girl and I just wondered

4:10

if you know someone who seeks solace in

4:12

study might also enjoy the noise of someone

4:14

licking a phone. Yes sorry I'm glad that

4:17

that's the most impact I've had through this

4:19

podcast in the last six that was about

4:21

three years ago. You've said things about sport

4:23

as well but yes but in one ear

4:26

at the other. Yeah no one cares cares

4:28

about that. It's interesting. It's interesting. that ASMR

4:30

is becoming more popular because, I mean, personally,

4:33

I'm not a fan. The clip that Rebecca

4:35

brought us at the start of that,

4:37

I started this discussion, I had to

4:39

take my earphones out rather than listen

4:42

to it. But it's interesting how the

4:44

ASMR is becoming, I guess, sort of...

4:46

more mainstream, more sort of ingrained into

4:48

people's lives really because I mean I

4:51

think it reflects sort of changing viewing

4:53

habits that people have more like you'd

4:55

be watching things on YouTube and streaming

4:58

YouTube and stuff like that rather than

5:00

like TV and non obviously online ASMR

5:02

is a lot more common and it

5:05

gets you know referred to in on

5:07

YouTube like by content creators it's it's

5:09

sort of a much more sort of

5:12

regular well-known thing and there's great chance

5:14

you know of people sort of stumbling

5:16

across it while browsing through things

5:18

like YouTube and so it's perhaps unsurprising

5:21

that now about sort of 10

5:23

years on from Mayism are becoming

5:25

a thing that it's now part

5:27

of a lot of people's everyday

5:29

lives. Yeah I suppose it's a

5:31

comfort blanket for people Elizabeth as

5:33

well as entertainment. It is,

5:35

yes, but I find it quite

5:37

fascinating that everybody thinks it's a

5:39

new thing. I mean, throughout time

5:41

immemorial people are sat by fires

5:43

and being comforted by the sound

5:46

of the woodcrackling, for example, all gone

5:48

down to the sea. Come on Elizabeth, you're

5:50

not that old, you have TV. My cave

5:52

days all long behind me, I'm happy to

5:54

say. But you know, oh, we've gone down to

5:56

the sea and picked up shells and listened to

5:59

the sound of the... see when we go

6:01

home and what have you. So it's

6:03

not a, I wouldn't say it's a

6:05

new phenomenon. I think it's just how

6:08

it's been commercialized and hyped is a

6:10

new phenomenon. But it is. I mean,

6:12

today's world is getting more challenging. I

6:15

was thinking about this earlier today and

6:17

I remember during lockdown just certainly being

6:19

overwhelmed by how many birds we could

6:22

hear because there wasn't the sound of

6:24

the traffic anymore. We have this background

6:26

noise all the time so I can

6:29

quite understand why people are escaping to

6:31

quiet a more soothing sounds although I

6:33

have to say that clip Rebecca was

6:35

one of the most disgusting things I

6:37

never heard in my life. That's interesting

6:39

so is it all four of us that

6:41

don't like it then because Rebecca you don't

6:43

like ASMR either do you? I can't

6:46

stand it and I

6:48

think people that hate

6:50

ASMR actually there's a

6:53

disorder called misaphonia and

6:55

that is related to

6:58

decreased tolerance to specific

7:00

sounds. So I have

7:02

it particularly when it

7:05

relates to loud chewing,

7:07

loud crunching, lip-smacking noises,

7:09

it actually like induces rage within

7:12

me. a big tub of something

7:14

delicious, I like the sound of

7:16

it. It's other people doing it.

7:18

I'm like, take your gooey stuff

7:20

away from my ears that I don't

7:22

like. It's more like an extreme version

7:25

of like, so obviously we all have

7:27

slight aversion to things, but people with

7:29

misaphonia particularly have... an intense aversion to

7:31

like nails down the blackboard. So they'll

7:33

have to step away from the table

7:36

or, you know, put earphones on or

7:38

something like that. I think, so in

7:40

that sense, I think I have a

7:42

mild form of it because it kind

7:44

of grosses me out, makes me uncomfortable,

7:47

but I will, you know, hanker down

7:49

and cope with it. But some people,

7:51

for them, it's extreme, it's debilitating,

7:53

it affects their day-to-day lives. I

7:55

can liken all of these sounds

7:58

like nails down the blackboard. Well

8:00

there's some research as well isn't there or

8:02

at least some thought that sensitivity to sound

8:04

is an online phenomenon too. I mean despite

8:06

what Elizabeth's saying that we've always enjoyed sitting

8:08

around a fire, the fact we can choose

8:11

our soundtracks all the time and the fact

8:13

that so many people are using noise cancelling

8:15

headphones might mean that we're more sensitive to

8:17

sound and our filtering of sound that we

8:19

used to be. Yes, there's definitely experts

8:22

suggesting that there may be some

8:24

kind of auditory issues that people

8:26

are having in the modern world.

8:28

I think it's interesting within this

8:30

study that 39% of those aged

8:32

18 to 24 said that they

8:34

felt the need to shut out

8:36

noise in public with the kind

8:38

of noise cancelling earphones as an

8:40

example, and that's compared with only

8:42

21% of those aged 45 to

8:44

54. So there's definitely been, or

8:46

they seemingly from this seemingly from

8:49

this study, been... a cultural shift

8:51

where perhaps we're all more used

8:53

to the idea of noise cancelling

8:55

headphones because they are a possibility

8:57

now for younger people as compared

9:00

to previous generations where that wasn't

9:02

a possibility. Yes, over stimulation, but

9:04

also potentially just cultural shifts in

9:06

how we move about the world,

9:09

really. I mean, is that a

9:11

concern to you, Elizabeth, when you

9:13

think about a generation of people

9:15

coming through that the sort of

9:17

need to filter the world as

9:20

they enter out into it? You

9:22

know, not the world of crackling

9:24

fires, but the world of, you

9:26

know, a crowded train station. It is, yes,

9:29

it's very, I find the idea that you

9:31

would just sit in a room and watch

9:33

a screen. with some noise on it

9:35

rather than go outside and as I

9:37

said listen to the sea or listen

9:40

to nature or something like that it's

9:42

very very scary you are closing down

9:44

what you can tolerate I mean the

9:46

big thing when you have a phobia

9:49

for example is to get out there

9:51

and actually touch the thing or find

9:53

the thing that does and if you're

9:55

sitting in your house and closing yourself

9:58

down then you are turning up any

10:00

possibility that you might then be

10:02

able to cope better with the

10:04

world. There was a really interesting

10:06

study I found as well from

10:08

2020 that says that for younger

10:10

people for their physical health it's

10:12

quantity of social interactions they have

10:14

that matter they need to be

10:16

with people more because they have

10:18

fewer physical symptoms of any illness

10:20

or you know just any sort

10:22

of physical pains they might have

10:24

for older people like me it's

10:26

the quality I mean obviously it's

10:29

quality when it comes to people like

10:31

me but you know but younger people

10:33

and so if they're not having that

10:35

exposure then they are they are doing

10:37

themselves physical and also mental harm as

10:40

well except it's still quite difficult though

10:42

isn't it to say you know if you

10:44

were to see someone a young person as

10:46

you say walking around with on ear headphones

10:48

not to listen to music but to filter

10:50

out the world it's difficult to say to that

10:52

person take those off and expose yourself

10:54

stop shielding yourself away because actually They

10:56

found a thing that works for them

10:58

that enables them to walk through a

11:00

busy train station and not feel anxious.

11:02

I mean, when you're actually, you know,

11:04

you're taking the thing that is the

11:06

bomb and saying, stop using it. It's

11:08

quite a difficult prescription. But it's

11:11

actually been shown that, you know, cutting

11:13

yourself off is not helping you. you know if

11:15

anything is doing the way it's been

11:17

found that people who spend more time

11:19

online or in virtual worlds or you

11:22

know twice is likely to develop a

11:24

mental health condition for example like depression

11:26

or anxiety they're much more likely to

11:28

feel socially isolated and so that just

11:30

builds it up it then becomes a

11:33

vicious circle where if you feel socially

11:35

isolated you get yourself off because you

11:37

can't feel you can interact with people.

11:39

So therefore you're not building up the

11:41

skills and you're feeling worse so you

11:44

just cut yourself off even more. But

11:46

of course this isn't just about

11:48

reducing anxiety otherwise it wouldn't be

11:50

one of the most such terms

11:52

on YouTube which it was extraordinarily

11:55

Rebecca in 2023. ASMR is hugely

11:57

popular because it gives people pleasure.

11:59

It's been... compared to a brain

12:01

orgasm. Yeah exactly and in these

12:03

in this research they under the

12:06

researchers undertook some very detailed interviews

12:08

and those who are consuming this

12:10

ASMR content actually explained that they

12:12

get a lot of comfort and

12:14

pleasure from this these kind of

12:16

videos it there's a calming effect

12:18

there there's escapism there's escapism and

12:21

some even brain tingle a physical

12:23

feeling in their head that they

12:25

report Yes, so essentially what the

12:27

research is questioning is... how this

12:29

tingling affect, how this kind of

12:31

brain orgasm is actually impacting people

12:34

in their lives. I think what's

12:36

interesting with the study is the

12:38

fact that it's young people that

12:40

are looking for, younger people that

12:42

are looking for this kind of

12:44

brain tingling sensation. It's meeting a

12:46

natural wish for comfort and connection

12:49

that I think is particularly interesting.

12:51

And even though these experiences are

12:53

synthetic, it's obviously tackling immediate problems.

12:55

that people have in their lives

12:57

and providing that kind of pleasurable

12:59

sensation that perhaps they are not

13:02

getting from real life experiences. Yeah

13:04

and given that it's so related

13:06

to tactility and comfort Emma as

13:08

Rebecca was just saying it's but

13:10

I'm trying to find a neutral

13:12

way to say this but there

13:14

isn't one it is particularly repellent

13:17

the way that the White House

13:19

has been using it. Yes so

13:21

there was a video put up

13:23

on the official White House X

13:25

page titled ASMR illegal alien deportation

13:27

flight and it's basically a video

13:29

of people being illegal migrants being

13:32

deported in shackles with ASMR style

13:34

sort of like sounds and it's

13:36

been accused of you know ridiculing

13:38

dehumanizing. Yeah, so is the official

13:40

White House X account? tweeted a

13:42

video of, yes, the sound of

13:45

shackles, the sound of the aircraft

13:47

firing up. the sound of people

13:49

being deported as basically propaganda. Yeah,

13:51

and I think it's interesting on

13:53

three accounts. First of all, that

13:55

the official White House account would

13:57

tweet something quite so repugnant, but

14:00

then again, maybe we shouldn't be

14:02

hugely surprised. Second of all, it's

14:04

interesting how it's clearly sort of

14:06

like attempting sort of appealed sort

14:08

of younger. people through the use

14:10

of ASMR and you know which

14:12

is obviously something that's more closely

14:15

associated with a sort of a

14:17

younger audience. Yeah the kind of

14:19

people that would have heard Trump

14:21

on Joe Rogan. Exactly which is

14:23

interesting that that sort of like

14:25

a perhaps a base that the

14:28

Trump government's sort of like appealing

14:30

to more again with sort of

14:32

you know future elections in mind

14:34

and also it's interesting how it's

14:36

another case of something that started

14:38

online as sort of like a

14:40

niche area which is becoming more

14:43

mainstream and as with all these

14:45

things becomes taken over by mainstream

14:47

outlets and you know politicians I

14:49

mean it's you could say the

14:51

same thing about the way that

14:53

the term woke is used that

14:56

was sort of like a an

14:58

initial sort of use used by

15:00

sort of people online in a

15:02

positive context and is now being

15:04

completely you know transmogrified into a

15:06

catch all insult by conservative people

15:08

it's and it's it's just interesting

15:11

the way that sort of these

15:13

things which start off as niche

15:15

sort of like alternative ideas become

15:17

more popular, become more mainstream and

15:19

get all the way to the

15:21

White House. Well it was sort

15:23

of a fetish really wasn't it

15:26

Rebecca when it started off and

15:28

now it's going totally mainstream do

15:30

you see ASML getting seems strange

15:32

to say this but even bigger?

15:34

To a certain extent yes I

15:36

do because I think there's so

15:39

much... scope within ASMR. There's so

15:41

many noises within the society that

15:43

can be made into content. You

15:45

look at ASMR now when there's

15:47

even the most squeamish stuff like

15:49

listening to people crack their bones

15:51

and take out their ingrown toenails

15:54

and stuff like that. It's just

15:56

totally, totally bizarre in that sense.

15:58

But whilst I might not, you

16:00

know, lean into ASMR content, there

16:02

are some things that in ASMR

16:04

that I enjoy, particularly the cutting

16:06

soap thing. I find that really

16:09

soothing. And even for someone with

16:11

misaphonia that I, that I, as

16:13

I mentioned earlier, I just think

16:15

it's... Just to be clear. So

16:17

is there someone, because I hate

16:19

this stuff, but this is someone

16:22

filming themselves, are they cutting into

16:24

bars of soap with a knife?

16:26

bars of soap. You just backed

16:28

your microphone a lot of people

16:30

would have got off on that

16:32

carry-on. Bars of soap that have

16:34

like indentations in the maid and

16:37

then you slice them and it

16:39

slices into the tiny little pieces

16:41

and they make noises against the

16:43

microphone. And do you feel comfortable

16:45

and satisfied hearing it? Yeah. I

16:47

just feel like I'm wasting my

16:49

time when I hear it. I'm

16:52

just like why are I not

16:54

listening to someone saying something interesting?

16:56

You know I think it's interesting

16:58

because I think some people... seek

17:00

out ASMR content. Obviously as a

17:02

safety blanket if soap cutting ASMR

17:05

stuff comes across my social media

17:07

I will probably listen to it

17:09

but anything else no. I do

17:11

see ASMR getting bigger because the

17:13

world is a pretty rubbish place

17:15

and therefore the people that are

17:17

looking for comfort and looking for

17:20

safety within ASMR is probably likely

17:22

to grow as bleak as that

17:24

sounds. Right, on the way, the

17:26

top-tier football club taking a stand

17:28

in the USA. That's after this.

17:30

Okay, Emma, you're next. What do

17:33

you think this week should be

17:35

remembered for? This week, a football

17:37

club faced crisis, one game into

17:39

its existence. Announcers came over the

17:41

PA system, telling fans that discrimination

17:44

is not tolerated by the stadium.

17:46

If they're going to continue to

17:48

come to the game and make

17:50

that chant, it's better that they

17:52

do not come. In a press

17:54

conference after the game... coach Mikey

17:57

Varas addressed the chant. The chant

17:59

that was heard tonight is unacceptable.

18:01

It doesn't represent the players, myself,

18:03

the club, and it certainly doesn't

18:05

represent San Diego or Baja California.

18:08

San Diego football coach Mikey Varas

18:10

talking to CBS, it uses a

18:12

homophobic chant that uses a homophobic

18:14

slang term in Spanish, so apologies,

18:16

like sort of there will be

18:18

some potentially... offensive language for Spanish-speaking

18:21

listeners. The chant is Puto, which

18:23

is a Mexican slang for a

18:25

male prostitute, and it was being

18:27

shouted continuously during the first ever

18:29

MLS, Major League Soccer, a league

18:32

game featuring San Diego FC, who

18:34

said this week said that they

18:36

will take immediate steps and communicate

18:38

a detailed plan to deal with

18:40

this chanting from their own fans

18:42

after condemning the unacceptable chance during

18:45

their first ever league game last

18:47

Saturday. And so chanted against whom

18:49

the team they were playing, presumably.

18:51

Chanced against the team they were

18:53

playing St. Louis City, it's particularly...

18:56

common when the opposition goalkeeper is

18:58

preparing to take their kick and

19:00

everyone shouts puto. And it's particularly

19:02

prevalent during Mexican matches. The Mexican

19:04

men's national team have been fined

19:06

several times by FIFA for this

19:09

chance. San Diego is near the

19:11

Mexican border. There's a large Mexican

19:13

immigrant population in San Diego and

19:15

so that means that this chance

19:17

has been brought over to the

19:20

US League and was in the

19:22

spotlight this week. Okay, so Elizabeth

19:24

you'd understand how big shiny new

19:26

football team, you know, soccer is

19:28

really catching on along that coast

19:31

of the USA and as Emma

19:33

says, you know, you've got some

19:35

Mexican fans who love Mexican football

19:37

that are now going to start

19:39

coming to American soccer. You can

19:41

understand why the owners of that

19:44

team and the managers of that

19:46

team might want to play that

19:48

down, but is it avoidable? It's

19:50

difficult. I found this. I've had

19:52

to do a little. a soul

19:55

search and since I suggested this

19:57

story because I know when I've

19:59

been a football game, yeah, I've

20:01

also joined in a few shouts.

20:03

Never anything raises almophobic, that would

20:05

just be a part of them.

20:08

But you know, the odd referees

20:10

are toss, that sort of thing

20:12

that you do. And you take

20:14

it and you accept it as

20:16

part of the game when actually,

20:19

now when I think about it,

20:21

that's a really, really bad way

20:23

to go. And the fact that

20:25

you're at a football game should

20:27

not be an excuse. for abusing

20:29

people which is what it is

20:32

and we take it that way

20:34

and I mean I've done this

20:36

in Spain too I even learnt

20:38

the Spanish words for it never

20:40

used puto I have to say.

20:43

Do you really know the Spanish

20:45

word for tosser I'd love to

20:47

hear that in your accent. And

20:49

so Lausiento arbitrary pose. All the

20:51

referees that I have said. Who

20:54

needs to do or linger? I

20:56

apologize now because it's done it.

20:58

It's a horrible part of the

21:00

game. And I have to say

21:02

it's a horrible part of the

21:04

men's game because you do not

21:07

get as much. abuse or shout

21:09

in the women's game. It is

21:11

much more supportive there. It is

21:13

a much more family-friendly atmosphere, which

21:15

is why there's not so much

21:18

abuse. And also they don't have

21:20

as much tribalism. The clubs aren't

21:22

as new, which is why this

21:24

story in America is really sad,

21:26

because people are bringing their old

21:28

tribalism to a new stadium. Yeah,

21:31

I mean you think about this

21:33

a lot Emma and you write

21:35

about this. I'm interested in your

21:37

position on what Elizabeth just said.

21:39

I presume you would object to

21:42

this word because it's homophobic. Do

21:44

you object to all football chants

21:46

like the referees a tosser? I

21:48

mean where do you stand on

21:50

that? It's a big release for

21:52

people, when it comes to people...

21:55

feeling like they have the right

21:57

because they've paid for a ticket

21:59

to a foot or much to

22:01

therefore be able to say whatever

22:03

they want and be able to

22:06

shout things at people that they

22:08

would never well most people would

22:10

never think of saying you know

22:12

to someone's face on the street

22:14

there was an incident actually this

22:16

week which could have been the

22:18

hook for this story as well

22:20

which was um an F.A. Cup

22:22

match between Crystal Palace and Millwall.

22:24

There was a foul by the

22:26

Millwall goalkeeper, Liam Roberts, on John

22:28

Fleet, Mattetta, the Palace Striker. Oh

22:30

yeah, I saw a photo of

22:32

that. Yes. Yeah, mashed him on

22:34

the head with a football beat,

22:36

didn't he? Yes, it was a

22:38

horrendous challenge. Roberts was sent off.

22:40

The Millwall fans, while Mattetta

22:43

was getting treatment on the pitch, they were

22:45

chanting, let him, let him die. but it

22:47

was all part of the you know oh

22:49

it's banter he's an opposition player he's been

22:51

smashed about the head by our player we're

22:53

gonna chance it's like first of all maybe

22:56

save it until you know that he's not

22:58

going to die because he was being treated

23:00

on the pitch for about 10 minutes and

23:02

had to go to hospital for 25 stitches

23:04

so you know but then there's also it's

23:06

interesting that millible have very much

23:08

taken a very defensive stance towards

23:11

their towards their fans to the

23:13

extent that they've actually banned the

23:15

daily mail from attending the daily

23:17

mail did a story about the

23:19

let them die chance and Millwell

23:22

felt that this was unfair on

23:24

their supporters. And I think

23:26

that there really is a bit of

23:28

an issue that too many supporters

23:30

feel that they can say whatever

23:32

they want and chant whatever they want

23:34

at football matches and it's okay because

23:36

they paid the ticket and they were

23:39

the rest of the crowd and that.

23:41

and you know and I'm sure that

23:43

a lot of the people who at

23:45

San Diego who were shouting puto aren't

23:47

homophobic they were just joining him with

23:49

the crown it was just like you know a

23:52

way of having got the option keeper but it's

23:54

it's an offensive word and you would not think

23:56

of shouting it at someone outside of that context

23:58

and I don't know why some people think

24:01

that because it's in the context of

24:03

football that makes it acceptable. Yeah it's

24:05

worth actually just underlining as well on

24:07

the word before I go to Rebecca

24:10

because I was reading up on this

24:12

I never heard the word puto before

24:14

but to find a sort of correlating

24:16

equivalent it's like and again forgive the

24:19

fact I'm about to use the word

24:21

but in context I have to it's

24:23

a bit like the word faggis isn't

24:25

it it's a word that if you're

24:28

actually if you're gay you may have

24:30

heard while someone is beating someone is

24:32

beating someone is beating you up that's

24:34

beating you up that's beating you homosexuals

24:37

in particular. Yes. And it's a, yeah,

24:39

yeah, that and that's and that's the

24:41

thing is like, yes, you can sort

24:43

of say, oh, it's just, you know,

24:46

banter, but for some gay people, it

24:48

really isn't. And it's a similar thing

24:50

that in England, a lot of people,

24:52

a lot of fans will chance at

24:55

Chelsea, the Chelsea Vent Boy Champion, because

24:57

of, you know, the sort of like

24:59

history of like male prostitute, sort of

25:01

like in, you know, you know, on

25:04

one note for some people it's just

25:06

bands of football for other people it's

25:08

deeply homophobic and where do you draw

25:10

that line and would you think that

25:13

it's acceptable to say that sort of

25:15

stuff you know outside the context of

25:17

football and which most people say it

25:19

wouldn't be. And is there an argument

25:22

Rebecca sort of as we were discussing

25:24

in the last story, your story, about

25:26

how people find a release in ASMR?

25:28

You know, is there a defence in,

25:31

these people find a release by going

25:33

to the football terraces? Where else is

25:35

there for them? Where they can shout

25:37

and release and engage in what some

25:39

people frankly think of toxic masculinity? Yeah,

25:42

there's probably an argument or a wider

25:44

discussion that should probably be had about

25:46

men and their ability to have particular

25:48

spaces within society. Obviously football is a

25:51

way that brings a lot of men

25:53

together into a space and there's bonding

25:55

and kind of solidarity there, but I

25:57

definitely agree with the points that Elizabeth

26:00

and Emma have both made. I think

26:02

there is a line that... needs to

26:04

be drawn. There definitely needs to be

26:06

measures that come into place to combat

26:09

offensive chanting, offensive language used within those

26:11

spaces. It's just not acceptable. Masculinity. is

26:13

not defined by swear words, it's not

26:15

defined by abuse, it's not defined by

26:18

any of these negative things, it's not

26:20

necessary, and it just makes the game

26:22

a pretty awful place to be. People

26:24

are taking their kids to these games.

26:27

I know it's not necessarily a family-friendly

26:29

environment and there's an argument to be

26:31

had there, but at the same time

26:33

the game should be able to be

26:36

enjoyed by everyone, and being in the

26:38

football stands when people are using this

26:40

kind of language is just a... Yeah,

26:42

it's an uncomfortable experience. Yeah, and a

26:45

culture clash, I guess, Emma, for the

26:47

reasons that Rebecca just said in the

26:49

United States, right? Because, you know, baseball

26:51

is a family game, isn't it? And

26:54

so is... what they call football, American

26:56

football, and so is basketball, actually their

26:58

traditions are that you take your family

27:00

to stadiums. They're maybe not used to

27:03

such hostility like this. Yeah, and in

27:05

this, to an extent, in American soccer

27:07

as well, fan culture in the MLS

27:09

is very different to that in the

27:12

UK. Obviously in the UK it's a

27:14

very working class sport, whereas in the...

27:16

in the US, there's a much more

27:18

popular sports, it means that there's sort

27:21

of like a more of a hipster

27:23

culture, sort of like an alternative. You

27:25

know, for example, one of the clubs

27:27

in the MLS, Portland Timbers, one of

27:30

their great traditions is after scoring a

27:32

goal is to cut a piece off

27:34

a giant log with a chainsaw, which

27:36

is quite a thing, but it wouldn't

27:39

maybe go down quite so well at

27:41

milliball or something like that. US sporting

27:43

culture, which is very different. I think

27:45

it is sort of like a bit

27:48

of a shock to have something like

27:50

this in the MLS where they don't

27:52

really have this, there is some culture

27:54

of rivalry and you know, but there's

27:57

no sort of, there's not so much

27:59

of a toxic culture and this idea

28:01

of toxic phantom and I think that

28:03

this so amophobic chanting whether you know,

28:06

deliberately homophobic or otherwise, it's come as

28:08

a bit of a shot because there's

28:10

not really been too many instances like

28:12

this in the in the MLS before.

28:15

Can I point out that ice hockey

28:17

is horrendously violent? Yes, that's true. It

28:19

is absolutely disgusting. I cannot watch it.

28:21

And it's, I think in many ways,

28:24

that is similar to football here. It's

28:26

accepted, it's accepted that there's going to

28:28

be violence. We accept that there is

28:30

going to be chanting in football games

28:33

and that that chanting will go too

28:35

far. It's just accepted and excused as

28:37

part of the game and that's what

28:39

we need to get away from. How

28:42

though? I mean, you know, it's one

28:44

thing to say we don't want it,

28:46

but what do you do? What gives

28:48

you teeth? What gives it teeth is

28:51

taking much more action. These things are

28:53

criminal offences. How often does that happen?

28:55

It doesn't. We need to really boost

28:57

up the legislation and give the action

29:00

so that when players do commit these,

29:02

because they are sometimes criminal acts. You

29:04

know, they hate speech, the criminal act,

29:06

there should be stronger action taken. You

29:09

said players, but you mean fans, right?

29:11

Fans would be punished for saying it.

29:13

But some people think that the players

29:15

should be punished in the form of

29:18

the team. You know, the team should

29:20

be responsible for its fans and what

29:22

they say. What do you think about

29:24

that? I think in some ways it

29:27

would. I remember the violence, you know,

29:29

the football hulicanism in the... 80s, the

29:31

70s, and I can remember how the

29:33

teams were punished for that. Liverpool was

29:36

punished quite a lot for violence and

29:38

it did have an impact, definitely. I

29:40

think that authorities are getting better when

29:42

it's individuals, like for example you'll find

29:44

quite often with a quick Google examples

29:47

of individuals who've done racist chants, you've

29:49

got homophobic chanting, being arrested. The issue

29:51

comes when it's something like San Diego

29:53

where it's a huge... crowd of people

29:56

doing it you can't just like you

29:58

know prosecute everyone in division that's that's

30:00

just unlikely and I think there's a

30:02

debate in sport in football whether or

30:05

not if a team's fans are doing

30:07

abusive chanting should the team be forced

30:09

to abandon games be deducted points and

30:11

the argument against is that that punishes

30:14

the players and the you know the

30:16

clubs who aren't you know taking part

30:18

in this abuse chanting but on the

30:20

other hand for example in the case

30:23

of San Diego it's then obviously you

30:25

know they're doing it because they're defend,

30:27

they think they're defending their team and

30:29

they think they're standing up for their

30:32

team and having to go at the

30:34

opposition. But if they really, if it's

30:36

made, okay, by doing this you are

30:38

harming your team in terms of their

30:41

ability to, you know, accrue points and

30:43

have success in the season, would that

30:45

have an impact in stopping these chants

30:47

and it's an ongoing, you know, debate?

30:50

I think it would be interesting to

30:52

see what would happen if a, if

30:54

a league, if a governing body took

30:56

that step to three points. and see

30:59

how much of an impact that would

31:01

have, because I think it could have

31:03

an impact. Rebecca, you're a Liverpool fan,

31:05

as you've discussed on the pod before.

31:08

What do you think works? I think

31:10

what's really important is a mixture of

31:12

education versus punishment in these. scenarios. Obviously,

31:14

as we've identified, it's really difficult when

31:17

it's a large group of people, but

31:19

obviously Liverpool is all too familiar with

31:21

the idea of tragedy chanting. Obviously the

31:23

Hillsborough tragedy has sadly been the sort

31:26

of many offensive chants throughout the years,

31:28

and Liverpool has taken a real hardline

31:30

stance on these kind of chants, repeatedly

31:32

issuing strong public statements, even... partnering with

31:35

Manchester United because they're obviously another club

31:37

that unfortunately experiences tragedy chanting an offensive

31:39

offensive language. But what I think is

31:41

really important is obviously tackling the issue.

31:44

and as I mentioned through it through

31:46

a mixture of education versus punishment. There

31:48

was a really interesting interview that I

31:50

read the other day about a Chelsea

31:53

fan who actually was charged at a

31:55

game with a section 5 public offense

31:57

order after shouting a homophobic slur. He

31:59

was banned from attending football matches after

32:02

pleading guilty in court. But now he's

32:04

trying to make amends after he went

32:06

through a fan education program. He wants

32:08

to make sure that no one repeats

32:11

his mistakes. So I think that that

32:13

particular case kind of shines a light

32:15

on the importance of education and punishment

32:17

being used in tandem. Now punishment is

32:20

obviously important because people need to

32:22

know the consequences of their actions.

32:24

It's a temporary fix really. So

32:26

by combining that with education, I

32:29

think that's fostering more of a

32:31

long-term cultural shift to help people

32:33

understand the harm of their actions

32:35

and promote empathy and awareness really.

32:38

I'm laughing just because I like

32:40

the idea of an empathy and

32:42

awareness-based chant. You know, let's not

32:44

be homophobic. Let's see if we can

32:47

get that going. Thank you for that.

32:49

Up next is Scottish Gaelic, the new

32:51

Scandinavian. That's after this. Okay

32:54

Elizabeth you are

32:57

finishing the show

33:00

what do you think

33:03

this week should

33:06

be remembered

33:09

for? This is

33:11

the week when

33:14

we learned

33:16

to mind

33:18

our languages.

33:22

No, no, pretty. Give me a machine.

33:25

Dad has she known out of

33:27

phone. Dad? Ahina. Come in our

33:29

mom, really okay. A clip from

33:31

The Island from BBC

33:33

Eye Player, although it has

33:35

another title as well, which

33:37

I'm going to pronounce is

33:40

Antileen. Sorry if I got

33:42

that wrong. I must admit,

33:44

I wouldn't have recognised the

33:46

language they were speaking there,

33:48

Elizabeth. What is it, and what's

33:51

the story? Gallic not Gaelic

33:53

Gaelic is Irish. Okay, you

33:55

say Gallic do you? Okay, it

33:57

is Gallic, yes, and I have a

33:59

Scottish husband who has been nagging

34:01

at me constantly to get that

34:03

right and I will apologize to

34:05

all our garlic listeners I think

34:08

it's pronounced Anchelon from what I

34:10

can hear right okay Anchelon and

34:12

that's I mean that means the

34:14

island okay so there we are

34:16

I suppose that's a good example

34:18

of why the BBC's put some

34:20

money into this then isn't it

34:22

we've all learned a word what's

34:24

the story though I mean Why

34:27

are you flagging this drama that's

34:29

been on the screens? Well this

34:31

drama is, it's a Gallic crime

34:33

thriller set on one of the

34:35

Scottish islands and I'm highlighting it

34:37

because it has been so popular

34:39

it has gone international and this

34:41

week the Scottish government has awarded

34:43

an extra 1.8 million to Gallic

34:45

media service, which brings it up

34:48

to 14.8 million to highlight the

34:50

language and to spread its awareness

34:52

more. I find it very interesting

34:54

because the number of Gallic speakers

34:56

is only about 1.2% of the

34:58

population of Scotland. So it's tens

35:00

of thousands basically. It's about 67,000

35:02

who speak it, but there is

35:04

another... 40,000 who say they can

35:07

understand it. Being a very bad

35:09

Spanish speaker, I really understand what

35:11

they mean. There are people who

35:13

can speak it fluently, but others

35:15

who have a good understanding of

35:17

the language. That might not be

35:19

much, but it has actually gone

35:21

up. In 2011, the number speaking

35:23

was only 57,000. So it's gone

35:26

up about 10 or 12,000 speaking

35:28

eight. I became interested in Gallick

35:30

when I worked in Glasgow and

35:32

one of my colleagues used to

35:34

talk it to his mom. He

35:36

was from the Western Isles and

35:38

he used to phone up his

35:40

mom and it got it away

35:42

from being this twee little non-language

35:44

to a live and breathe in

35:47

one and the reason why I'm

35:49

so interested in this is because

35:51

I think we are starting to

35:53

see our languages developing in that

35:55

way and I think that's only

35:57

going to grow. I mean the

35:59

interest in Gaelic visit Scotland have

36:01

had over 70% increase over the

36:03

last few years and then above

36:06

people looking at Gaelic related content

36:08

for Scotland. You know if we

36:10

look at New Zealand for example,

36:12

marriage tourism brings in about 500

36:14

million... pounds to their economy every

36:16

year. It's been estimated that Gallic

36:18

could bring in up to 148

36:20

million, something like that, just by

36:22

investing in it. We're missing a

36:24

trick by not looking after our

36:27

national languages. Okay, but why did

36:29

these languages die out in the

36:31

first place, Emma? Why is it

36:33

only 1% of Scots that speak

36:35

Gallic? I think that there's... you

36:37

have to sort of look at

36:39

the history of the United Kingdom

36:41

and understand it sort of like

36:43

a lot of these languages were

36:46

suppressed to an extent particularly if

36:48

you look at like the history

36:50

of Irish for example in the

36:52

Gaelic languages sort of being suppressed

36:54

and you know English being becoming

36:56

the dominant language I think that

36:58

perhaps an interest in sort of

37:00

this is perhaps because of you

37:02

know people rediscovering their roots maybe

37:05

sort of like it because you

37:07

know I think all languages are

37:09

political and it's part of political

37:11

heritage and I think there's an

37:13

interest in rediscovering these things as

37:15

part of a discovery of national

37:17

identity. So there's still a long

37:19

way to go in terms of

37:21

education because simply the education sort

37:23

of structure isn't there. And it

37:26

was doubly interesting in that study

37:28

that found that from 2022 found

37:30

that the Scottish Gallic duolingo course

37:32

had more than one million learners.

37:34

I think that there is definitely

37:36

an interest in people discovering, you

37:38

know, these historic British languages, but

37:40

they're just necessarily the educational structures

37:42

currently there in place. Do you

37:45

think though that that interest Elizabeth

37:47

can go beyond the Scottish diaspora

37:49

and people who are currently in

37:51

Scotland who access Scottish language services?

37:53

Is this of interesting to people

37:55

that aren't Scottish? Yeah I think

37:57

it is. I think any language

37:59

gives you an insight into the

38:01

culture of the country so anybody

38:03

who's just interested in Scotland or...

38:06

in Britain together would have an

38:08

interest in it. And it's not

38:10

just Scottish that's going up. I

38:12

mean, Emma was talking about the

38:14

number of people learning Gallic on

38:16

dual lingo. According to the Cornish

38:18

Council, 5,000 people are learning Cornish.

38:20

There is a huge resurgence in

38:22

our national languages and in how

38:25

they're going. But are they our

38:27

national languages? I suppose that's what

38:29

I'm getting at Rebecca is some

38:31

people would think well the reason

38:33

not that it was the right

38:35

thing to do but the reason

38:37

that British government suppressed these languages

38:39

over time was because they wanted

38:41

to create a national or truly

38:43

national language across the UK which

38:46

was English that was the purpose

38:48

of suppressing them. So is it

38:50

an act of nationalism? you know

38:52

for a Scott or for a

38:54

Welsh person to revive these languages

38:56

which is against the interests of

38:58

the UK being a cohesive cultural

39:00

place? I think so. I think

39:02

this kind of diversity is fostering

39:05

pluralism and it really broadens our

39:07

perspectives. We've got such a rich

39:09

culture within the UK. I mean

39:11

you can travel the length and

39:13

breadth of the UK and discover

39:15

that there's so much diversity even

39:17

within such a small space and

39:19

I think the revival of these

39:21

languages only serves to... prove that

39:24

both to everyone that lives in

39:26

the UK and abroad and I

39:28

think arguably it means that the

39:30

UK government itself has a moral

39:32

imperative to restore the languages that

39:34

it historically sought to suppress. We've

39:36

talked about policies of anglicisation and

39:38

suppressing several languages and it kind

39:40

of makes me remember the concept

39:42

of NATO-alienation, which is essentially severing

39:45

ties and is stranging a person

39:47

from their cultural heritage. And I

39:49

think language plays a huge role

39:51

in that. I think it's really

39:53

important to restore these languages, to

39:55

acknowledge the historical harm that anglicisation

39:57

caused, and essentially just embrace the

39:59

diversity, the linguistic diversity within this

40:01

country. Would we talk about how

40:04

great Scotland is, how great Wales

40:06

is, how great Northern Ireland is.

40:08

and encourage tourism but just as

40:10

we're encouraging tourism we should be

40:12

encouraging a return to historical languages

40:14

as well. But it comes at

40:16

a cost Elizabeth as you're saying

40:18

this is an investment every pound

40:20

that they put into this is

40:22

a pound they're not putting into

40:25

something else. But every pound that

40:27

they put into that has been

40:29

shown to give you 1 pound

40:31

34 back so it's an investment

40:33

that's given you a 33 you

40:35

know increase on how you invest

40:37

and as I said New Zealand

40:39

embraces its marriage tourism no end.

40:41

That is what people associate with.

40:44

with that country. If you look

40:46

over at Spain for example you

40:48

have all of those different languages,

40:50

you have Catalan. They're making a

40:52

big thing out of how Catalonia

40:54

is Spain but it's not Spain

40:56

because it has its own language,

40:58

it has its own culture and

41:00

its heritage to try and get

41:03

you to go to Catalonia as

41:05

well as go to all the

41:07

other places in Spain. So there

41:09

is a huge increase. It could

41:11

do an awful lot of our

41:13

economy if we start looking after

41:15

our languages more. And all of

41:17

the cultural aspects that go with

41:19

it. Rebecca, it's all right. There's

41:21

such a rich cultural heritage that

41:24

goes with that too. And yeah,

41:26

we should embrace it. There's also

41:28

another thing going on, another cultural

41:30

movement, if you like Emma, which

41:32

goes back to what we were

41:34

talking about earlier with ASMR and

41:36

people watching YouTube rather than tele,

41:38

which is one of the reasons

41:40

there's been a big mainstream audience

41:43

for this drama in Scottish drama

41:45

in Scottish, because people are used

41:47

to watching more things with subtitles

41:49

now. Absolutely. So there's much less

41:51

of a, the one inch barrier,

41:53

I guess you could call them,

41:55

sort of like the subtitles that

41:57

used to be sort of such

41:59

a turn off for people, people

42:01

are much more likely to watch,

42:04

you know, shows with some types,

42:06

things like Squid Game, Shogun, much

42:08

more popular. And I also think,

42:10

yeah, it's part of, you know,

42:12

multicultural sort of Britain nowadays is

42:14

that people are becoming more and

42:16

more used to people speaking in

42:18

different languages and... So there's a

42:20

much more sort of a willingness

42:23

and an interest in sort of

42:25

the languages, the different languages to

42:27

English that we have, sort of

42:29

within the UK. And I think

42:31

even if it's not necessarily, you

42:33

know, learning Gaelic, Welsh, whatever to,

42:35

you know, speak it as a

42:37

first language, there's an interest in

42:39

rediscovering it for people to be

42:42

in touch with their own cultures.

42:44

But then I suppose from that

42:46

point of view, Rebecca, what we're

42:48

talking about in terms of investment

42:50

doesn't need to just come from

42:52

the government, does it? You know,

42:54

if there's money in it, then

42:56

will we see the private sector

42:58

invest more in... media in our

43:00

national languages? Yeah, I think having

43:03

a variety of approaches to funding

43:05

and supporting media in these languages

43:07

is obviously very important and as

43:09

you identify, I think through a

43:11

mix of public funding as cultural

43:13

grants as well as perhaps dedicated

43:15

broadcasting authorities, that could be a

43:17

very successful model and it's not

43:19

new. not too far away, Ireland's

43:22

TG4 is the nation's dedicated Irish

43:24

language TV channel. And even as

43:26

Elizabeth mentioned, the New Zealand's Mary

43:28

Broadcasting Agency is funded and has

43:30

even has specific grants for youth-focused

43:32

and educational content. And as we've

43:34

touched upon with so many people

43:36

trying to learn the language, I

43:38

think targeting this towards younger audiences,

43:40

many of whom are more likely

43:43

to argue. be more likely to

43:45

be receptive to language learning can

43:47

only be a positive thing. So

43:49

having a diversity of funding as

43:51

well. as taking

43:53

kind of newer

43:55

approaches towards digital

43:57

first content is

43:59

probably a successful

44:02

funding model that

44:04

Scotland could look

44:06

towards as it's

44:08

seen success elsewhere

44:10

across the globe. Elizabeth.

44:13

Yeah, I just want to

44:15

finish by saying the colleague

44:17

that I heard speaking Gallic

44:20

to his mum actually took

44:22

his MP's oath of office

44:24

in Gallic in Parliament and that

44:26

just felt like it was so

44:28

uniting for the country to be

44:31

able to hear a different language,

44:33

a British language, a Scottish language,

44:35

one of our island's languages being

44:37

celebrated in Westminster that way. As

44:39

I said, I'm all for giving

44:41

our languages. Forget Rupert Lowe, this

44:43

might be England, we speak a

44:45

lot of different languages here. Well

44:47

on that note I would like to say goodbye

44:49

and thanks for listening in Scottish Gallic but I

44:52

can't. Quick

44:54

to Google translate. I'm

44:56

sure you'll survive. Shout out to our listeners

44:58

in the Outer Ebrides though. My thanks to

45:00

Rebecca, Emma and Elizabeth. You can follow this

45:02

show for free. You can get every as

45:04

soon as it's released by searching for the

45:06

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to tap follow. You can also get six

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free issues of the week magazine with the

45:12

trial subscription if you go to theweek.com/subscriptions. In

45:15

the meantime, I've been Oli Mann. Our music

45:17

is by Tom Morby, the producer Oli

45:19

at Rethink Audio, and until we meet

45:21

again to unwrap next week, bye -bye.