0:00

So, It's the

0:02

week ending Friday the 14th of March

0:04

and this is the week unwrapped in

0:06

the past seven days We've seen a

0:08

container ship colliding with an oil tanker

0:11

in the North Sea Kierstama announcing that

0:13

NHS England is to be abolished bringing

0:15

the health service back under government control

0:17

and Cheltenham Festival recording its smallest crowd

0:20

since 1993 You can read all you

0:22

need to know about everything that matters

0:24

in the week magazine, but we're here

0:27

to bring you some stories that passed

0:29

under the radar this week this week

0:31

headlines right now, but with repercussions

0:33

for all our lives. I'm Ollie

0:35

Mann, and let's unwrap the week.

0:38

And joining me today from

0:40

the week's digital team, it's

0:42

the bossman Holden Frith. We

0:44

also have Rebecca Messina and

0:46

the return of BBC journalist

0:48

Julia McFarlane. And Julia, you

0:50

are up first, what do

0:52

you think this week should

0:54

be remembered for? It's too late to

0:57

say, I'm sorry. What do you think the

0:59

end game of all this is? Just to

1:01

cause chaos, that's what I think. So

1:03

yeah, not to throw about it, but

1:05

it's kind of galvanized Canadians together, so

1:07

that's the silver lining. I was planning

1:09

a trip to Las Vegas. We've canceled

1:11

that, and we're going to Salt Spring

1:14

Island. When I go to the grocery

1:16

store, I look for the Canadian, the

1:18

little maple leaf that a lot of

1:20

grocery stores have put on the shelves,

1:22

you know, try and purchase Canadian

1:24

items or Mexican items, anything other

1:26

than the United States. without a doubt.

1:28

Sky News speaking to some ferry

1:31

passengers in Vancouver on Wednesday about

1:33

the Trump tariffs in Canada, which

1:35

is big news Julia, but what

1:38

are we missing? What we are

1:40

missing is I think a

1:42

really really interesting movement that

1:44

appears to be happening across

1:46

Canada, across sectors of society

1:48

and that is, you know,

1:51

Canadians who have long been

1:53

known for being polite and

1:55

being friendly, have become... downright

1:57

hostile to their southern neighbours. What

1:59

we are seeing all across Canada

2:01

is the public reacting really very

2:03

strongly. To the possibility of annexation.

2:05

I mean not a massive surprise is it

2:08

that people might be a bit angry about

2:10

that. But what's the thing that's happened this

2:12

week that we're missing? So

2:14

we have seen in huge

2:16

numbers Canadians... boycotting US goods.

2:18

The public has really reacted

2:20

to this. We are seeing

2:22

across Canada, grocers putting up,

2:25

buy Canada flags, there are

2:27

maple leaves on products to

2:29

signify which products come from

2:31

Canada, there are posters on

2:33

shelf saying look for the

2:35

leaf, very widespread and popular

2:37

American brands like Forga's coffee

2:39

or bourbon or jeans. are

2:41

being boycotted. Canadians are booing

2:43

the American national anthem in

2:45

their hockey games. There have

2:48

been a slew of apps

2:50

that have now flooded the

2:52

markets with names such as

2:54

Buy Beaver, Maple, Scan, this

2:56

to help shoppers, scan QR

2:58

bar codes and reject American

3:00

produce, even Wayne Gretzky, Wayne

3:02

Gretzky who is basically Canada's...

3:04

Tom Brady or David Beckham,

3:06

he was booed recently because

3:08

he is friends with Trump

3:10

and a petition to rename

3:12

Gretzky drive in Edmonton reached

3:14

more than 12,000 signatures. They

3:16

are angry and they are

3:18

using their Canadian dollars

3:21

to show their displeasure for

3:23

what is happening across the

3:25

border and how they feel

3:27

their country has been belittled

3:29

by America and a resurgence

3:32

in a resurgence in National

3:34

patriotism and pride. Okay, but

3:36

Rebecca, personal action, like this, choosing

3:38

what you buy at the store.

3:40

How much of an impact will

3:42

that actually have on the US,

3:44

compared to industrial scale tariffs? Yeah,

3:46

well, I mean, it's debatable. I

3:48

mean, swapping Jack Daniels for Crown

3:50

Royal is quite small potatoes when

3:53

you look at the wider picture.

3:55

And actually, potatoes are a part

3:57

of it. Canada exports $1.7 billion

3:59

worth. of french fries to the

4:01

US every year, but... Yeah, they're

4:03

not going to make a significant

4:05

dent. What we're talking about is

4:07

primarily an industrial trading relationship based

4:09

on vast amounts of stuff. You

4:11

know, in Canada it's primarily exporting

4:13

oil, gas, lumber, machinery to the

4:16

US, and from the US it's

4:18

importing, again, machinery, minerals, technical equipment,

4:20

apparatus, the kind of things, you

4:22

know, not the things that the

4:24

average person is picking up in

4:26

the shop. There is one arena

4:28

where the individual consumer could have

4:30

an impact sort of in the

4:32

longer term, which is cars, because

4:34

motor vehicles are the number one,

4:36

export to Canada by market value

4:38

but on the whole Canada doesn't

4:40

really represent a particularly large market

4:42

for a lot of US multinationals.

4:45

But also these these crates of

4:47

Bud Light and Jack Daniels have

4:49

been sold to the Canadian stores

4:51

for them to put the mesh

4:53

in front of it saying don't

4:55

buy it so at that point

4:57

surely doesn't make any difference. they

4:59

have, but they are generally signed

5:01

under the kinds of agreements where

5:03

they can return unsold stock. And

5:05

this is sort of the thing

5:07

beyond the tariffs themselves and the

5:09

economic impact that they are having.

5:11

There's also this question of these

5:14

terrorists disrupt the whole supply chain

5:16

because products are being bought and

5:18

sold between companies under the understanding

5:20

that demand is going to remain

5:22

relatively stable, that there isn't going

5:24

to be some huge destabilizing event

5:26

that would affect consumer demand for

5:28

them. So that's one thing that

5:30

American companies are quite concerned about,

5:32

is getting all this unsold stock.

5:34

sent back to them. The one

5:36

thing I will say though is

5:38

that... looking beyond you know the

5:40

economic impact that the average consumer

5:43

can have maybe it's not huge

5:45

compared to you know billions of

5:47

dollars of oil or lumber that

5:49

are being sold i think we

5:51

can't underestimate the impact that it

5:53

has on the country's mood like

5:55

that isn't a that isn't an

5:57

insignificant aspect because it's going to

5:59

be a pretty rough economic time

6:01

if these you know if this

6:03

trade war does continue so i

6:05

think having that such a national

6:07

unity will help you know it's

6:09

intangible but it's the kind of

6:12

thing that can help a country

6:14

stand up to that kind of

6:16

economic challenge. Yeah, I mean that

6:18

cultural shift is interesting isn't it?

6:20

Holden, I mean obviously people who

6:22

live in Canada particularly in the

6:24

cities, particularly over the border, have

6:26

relationships with the USA and always

6:28

have, and the two countries are

6:30

close geographically and culturally in lots

6:32

of ways. So, you know, it

6:34

would be a bit like England

6:36

and Scotland in that sense, wouldn't

6:38

it? It's one thing for us

6:41

in Britain to say, as a

6:43

whole, the British people aren't fans

6:45

of Trump either, but when you're

6:47

on his doorstep, regardless of the

6:49

tariffs, that cultural mood of we

6:51

really dislike what our neighbours are

6:53

doing, will have an impact. impact

6:55

and I think the, you know,

6:57

if I'm completely honest, I do

6:59

find the whole thing a little

7:01

bit cringy and I know the

7:03

Canadians aren't the instigated here and

7:05

they're the ones being bullied, but

7:07

even so, like just renaming things

7:10

with American. in their title feels

7:12

a bit pureriles. Give us some

7:14

examples. The one that's got the

7:16

most attention is Americanos becoming Canadianos

7:18

or some, I don't know if

7:20

I've pronounced that correctly, and I

7:22

think part of the problem is

7:24

it doesn't sound like a particularly

7:26

good name for a drink. But

7:28

it does, it does just recall

7:30

the you know, French fries becoming

7:32

freedom fries during the Iraq war.

7:34

And I feel it would be

7:36

classier and more Canadian just to

7:39

rise above the whole thing. I

7:41

did quite like the incident where

7:43

the American national anthem got booed

7:45

at a hockey game. I thought

7:47

the classy bit of that was

7:49

that the crowd then cheered the

7:51

singer at the end of it,

7:53

which seemed like a nice mix

7:55

of kind of defiance and courtesy,

7:57

which did feel very Canadian. The

7:59

two potential really serious effects here.

8:01

One is the effect on Canada

8:03

of the tariffs that Trump is

8:05

imposing. The US accounts for 80%

8:08

of all Canadian trade. So adding

8:10

a 25% tariff onto that would

8:12

have a really catastrophic event on

8:14

the Canadian. Canadian economy. Far more

8:16

than any reprisal tariffs would have

8:18

on the US. One Canadian minister

8:20

said a million Canadian jobs are

8:22

at stake and that's in a

8:24

country that's not that much more

8:26

than half the size of the

8:28

UK. that is a really serious

8:30

effect. But a lot of the

8:32

reporting says that US tariffs will

8:34

have a negative effect on US

8:37

consumers because they will raise prices.

8:39

Most economists agree on that. You

8:41

know, you'll always find an economist

8:43

who will disagree because that's the

8:45

nature of economists, but there is

8:47

a sort of overwhelming majority who

8:49

agree that tariffs are. a broad

8:51

negative impact on any economy. But

8:53

that's as true as the tariffs

8:55

imposed in response to Trump as

8:57

it is the ones he imposes

8:59

himself. So you know Canadian tariffs

9:01

will have the same effect they'll

9:03

raise prices for Canadian consumers they'll

9:06

reduce choice they could lead to

9:08

this kind of tip-for-tat trade war

9:10

where everyone ends up poorer. Oh

9:12

well I mean if that's true

9:14

Julia what's the point? I mean

9:16

why is Trump's White House doing

9:18

this if really everyone will end

9:20

up poorer? One thing that is

9:22

very interesting is While President Trump

9:24

is predictable in many ways, people

9:26

are paying very close attention to

9:28

what he says from time to

9:30

time as maybe a hint of

9:32

where his intentions lie. And part

9:34

of what caused a lot of

9:37

concern for the Canadians was when

9:39

he had his phone call with

9:41

Trudeau. And apparently, according to the

9:43

New York Times, he was reading

9:45

off a memo when he said

9:47

this. He mentioned, I don't like

9:49

the border treaty between our two

9:51

countries and wanted to revisit it.

9:53

This is the 1908 agreement that

9:55

basically governs the demarcation between the

9:57

US and Canada. Don't forget the

9:59

longest international border in the world.

10:01

said that he doesn't like how

10:03

the two countries share water. He

10:06

thinks Canada has too much water

10:08

and he wants to revisit water

10:10

agreements between the two countries. There

10:12

are concerns among the Canadians about

10:14

what President Trump actually wants. Now

10:16

the justification for the tariffs has

10:18

been... a border control over migrants

10:20

and fentanyl. And it was very

10:22

interesting because I was watching this

10:24

press conference by the White House

10:26

press secretary, Caroline Leavitt, and she

10:28

was pushed by reporters about the

10:30

fact that the amount of fentanyl

10:32

that crosses from Canada is negligible,

10:35

and I think amounted to less

10:37

than a suitcase's worth of fentanyl.

10:39

And this reporter was pushing her

10:41

and pushing her, saying 25% tariffs

10:43

over a suitcase of fentanyl. She

10:45

would not be drawn... to that.

10:47

And so a lot of people

10:49

are worried that the idea of

10:51

Canada not doing enough to stop

10:53

illegal fentanyl entering the US is

10:55

a forced flag for what Trump's

10:57

true intentions might be. But which

10:59

are what? And what do you

11:01

think? Why do you think he's

11:04

doing it? It's still not clear?

11:06

Well, listen... President Trump and Justin

11:08

Trudeau have had beef for a

11:10

very long time. Prime Minister Trudeau

11:12

was caught on camera almost mocking

11:14

President Trump at an international summit.

11:16

They've had quite... you know, terse

11:18

interactions from time. They're obviously, they're

11:20

from opposite ends of the spectrum.

11:22

And so it was interesting when

11:24

Prime Minister Trudeau flew down to

11:26

Maralago in November after Trump won

11:28

the election because both sides had

11:30

said that it was a successful

11:33

meeting and it was only afterwards.

11:35

It seemed to be revisited when

11:37

President Trump started talking about things

11:39

he was unhappy with. The relationship

11:41

between the two countries on trade,

11:43

he didn't like the water agreements.

11:45

and all this kind of stuff.

11:47

Okay, but if it's about personalities,

11:49

I mean, Trudeau's not there anymore,

11:51

is, is he? Another underreported story

11:53

from this side of the Atlantic,

11:55

perhaps this week, is we have

11:57

a new Prime Minister in Canada,

11:59

Mark Kearney. So will that make

12:02

a difference? It's hard to say,

12:04

Mark Kearney is in many ways

12:06

like Trump is not a career

12:08

politician, but he is seen in

12:10

Canada as... a strong economic hand.

12:12

He was the governor of the

12:14

Bank of Canada during the global

12:16

financial crisis and then he was

12:18

the governor of the Bank of

12:20

England during Brexit. And he is

12:22

not hugely well-known by Canadians. He

12:24

is certainly not as charismatic as

12:26

Justin Trudeau once was. Obviously his

12:28

personality tanked in recent years, although

12:31

interestingly reserved during this fracka with

12:33

President Trump. And he's really galvanized

12:35

the Liberals' chances at the next

12:37

election. I think it's... It's a

12:39

difficult time for the Canadians. The

12:41

economy is seen as a huge

12:43

issue and as Holden pointed out,

12:45

the US is by far their

12:47

largest trading partner and there is

12:49

so much of the Canadian economy

12:51

is at stake with this and

12:53

what is interesting is the... I

12:55

wouldn't go so far to say

12:57

as unraveling ties, but increasingly difficult

13:00

relationship with the Trump White House,

13:02

has a lot of Canadians changing

13:04

their views on what their priorities

13:06

are. There was a poll recently

13:08

that showed that a majority of

13:10

Canadians were interested in joining the

13:12

European Union. that's where we are

13:14

right now. So what the next

13:16

Prime Minister of Canada who wins

13:18

the next election may find himself

13:20

doing is seeking economic alliances outside

13:22

of the United States, which is

13:24

of course something that other leaders,

13:26

such as Friedrichmert's now in Germany,

13:29

he was on camera saying the

13:31

same thing for Germany and Europe

13:33

at large needs to find independence

13:35

from the United States. But internationally...

13:37

Rebecca, if everyone took this stance

13:39

of rejecting American products. And that

13:41

might be really hard to do

13:43

because the world does love its,

13:45

you know, its Levi's and whatever,

13:47

but if we did, if everyone

13:49

did, then that would harm America,

13:51

wouldn't it? And that would be

13:53

clearly counterproductive and in a very

13:55

simple way, the kind of thing

13:58

that Trump understands. Yeah, and I

14:00

think we've kind of seen that

14:02

in the way that terrorists are

14:04

being imposed on the US or

14:06

being threats. and other to be

14:08

imposed on the US, because a

14:10

lot of the products that have

14:12

been targeted are quite niche, but

14:14

they're chosen to be symbolic. So

14:16

it's like Harley Davidson motorbikes. It's,

14:18

you know, Kentucky bourbon. It's things

14:20

that serve more of a symbolic

14:22

purpose than anything else. Yes, whereas

14:24

I notice that like Tim Hortons,

14:27

which is symbolic for all Canadians

14:29

of their like national fast food

14:31

restaurant, is actually owned by an

14:33

American corporation. Well, yeah. So this

14:35

speaks to something else as well.

14:37

Canada imposed on US imports were

14:39

on things like food, home wear,

14:41

clothing, lots of iconic brands. But

14:43

this second round that has now

14:45

just been imposed is showing that

14:47

they are getting a little bit

14:49

more serious because now they're imposing

14:51

tariffs on American steel, computer technology,

14:53

lots of slightly more industrial products,

14:56

which are the kind of sanctions

14:58

that we're going to buy a

15:00

little bit more. But yes, it's

15:02

true that the problem is that

15:04

in this globalised world full of

15:06

multinational companies, it is very difficult

15:08

for consumers to boy... got American

15:10

goods because you have to analyze

15:12

what you're going to consider an

15:14

American good. For instance I was

15:16

looking at Canadian Club whiskey which

15:18

is made in Canada, bottled in

15:20

Canada but the company that owns

15:22

it is headquartered in New York

15:25

City and this is true of

15:27

so many things like if something

15:29

is made in Canada do you

15:31

still buy it if it's owned

15:33

by a subsidiary of an American

15:35

company and if you choose to

15:37

exclude everything that's got an American

15:39

connection you're going to find that

15:41

you maybe don't have that many

15:43

options when you're in the supermarket.

15:45

Yeah, that's right, isn't it, Holden?

15:47

I mean, consumers can end up

15:49

shooting themselves in the foot economically

15:51

as well by trying to do

15:54

what they think is right patriotically,

15:56

but then they exclude all of

15:58

the cheaper products, you know, from

16:00

their houses. One of the biggest

16:02

retailers of British beef is McDonald's,

16:04

for example. Yeah, there's a reason

16:06

that the world has moved towards

16:08

a more globalised model over the

16:10

past several decades, and that it...

16:12

does give people a lot more

16:14

choice and it gives them a

16:16

lot more choice at a cheaper

16:18

price point and there are many

16:20

problems with globalization and I think

16:23

those are... getting more attention over

16:25

there. the more recent years. But

16:27

there's a price to that too,

16:29

and that often is paid by

16:31

consumers at the till. I think

16:33

it's slightly different what we've seen

16:35

in Canada in the past few

16:37

days, where it has been voluntary.

16:39

People have been choosing how they

16:41

spend their money and trying to

16:43

find Canadian goods where those alternatives

16:45

exist. But how long you can

16:47

sustain that and how much of

16:49

an impact that can have, I

16:52

think is a completely different question.

16:54

And I've mentioned the... freedom fries

16:56

example fleetingly earlier and I was

16:58

actually living in the states at

17:00

that time. I never saw anywhere

17:02

which actually had freedom fries on

17:04

the menu. It's far more of

17:06

a kind of story that gets

17:08

attention and does the rounds for

17:10

a few weeks and then people

17:12

forget about it and I would

17:14

imagine that there's a similar kind

17:16

of reversion to normality going to

17:18

happen in Canada particularly because they've

17:21

been going through a political campaign

17:23

around the change of leadership for

17:25

the Liberal Party. They have a

17:27

new Prime Minister. That clearly led

17:29

to, you know, probably a greater

17:31

need for Canadian politicians to express

17:33

patriotic, you know, views and show

17:35

defiance than otherwise would have been.

17:37

And I imagine Mark Kearney being

17:39

an economist, being a central banker,

17:41

is probably going to want to

17:43

take the heat out of it

17:45

and actually find some way to

17:47

avoid imposing. further tariffs because he

17:49

will know better than anyone that

17:52

that's unlikely to be good for

17:54

Canadians or Americans. Do you agree

17:56

Julia that this is just a

17:58

temporary shift or do you think

18:00

there is a chance that this

18:02

could be something more long-lasting? I

18:04

think that is the question that

18:06

all governments and world leaders in

18:08

America's orbit are considering right now.

18:10

It is impossible to ask the

18:12

questions that all governments are considering.

18:14

It is impossible for any of

18:16

America's allies to decouple from America,

18:18

at least in the short... term,

18:21

but I think the volatility of

18:23

the Trump administration's policies and President

18:25

Trump's willingness to realign United States

18:27

policy, and the way he has

18:29

handled his relationships with some of

18:31

America's allies, and just look at

18:33

the rather unedifying defenestration of Volodomir

18:35

Zelenski in the White House recently,

18:37

has spooked... a lot of countries.

18:39

I think what is happening is

18:41

countries are realizing that being overly

18:43

reliant upon the United States in

18:45

terms of security could be a

18:47

potential issue. We are now seeing

18:50

people in Germany discussing openly. whether

18:52

they want to keep buying F-35s,

18:54

for example, there have been new

18:56

fears now that the US could

18:58

have a kill switch installed on

19:00

some of its fighter jet exports.

19:02

And this has been discussed in

19:04

Germany, one of the biggest German

19:06

arms companies, did an interview with

19:08

Build last week. where he said

19:10

cryptically, the head of communications at

19:12

this arms firm, said cryptically, it's

19:14

more than just a rumor that

19:16

there is a kill switch on

19:19

the F-35s, and that sparked a

19:21

frenzy in German media. And there

19:23

was a report in the New

19:25

York Times with regards to Canada

19:27

saying that there was consideration of

19:29

expelling Canada from Five Eyes, the

19:31

intelligence network. What does the world

19:33

do with an unreliable United States

19:35

that many countries have been overly

19:37

dependent on? and a realignment about

19:39

what that means for a lot

19:41

of countries and their priorities? A

19:43

question we will leave hanging for

19:45

now. Thank you for that. Up

19:48

next, Long Live the King of

19:50

Nepal. That's after this. Rebecca, it's

19:52

your turn. What do you think

19:54

this week should be remembered for?

19:56

the week that many people in

19:59

Nepal decided they were better off

20:01

with the devil they knew. Yeah,

20:03

I mean if your Napoli is

20:05

not up to scratch, I can

20:08

tell you that the people in

20:10

the crowd there are chanting slogans

20:12

such as Come Back King, Save

20:14

the Country, and We Want monarchy.

20:16

Yeah, this is... up to 10,000

20:19

people who crowded around the Kathmandu

20:21

International Airport to greet the country's

20:23

former king, Guyanedra, as he returned

20:25

from a visit to the west

20:27

of the country, calling for his

20:30

reinstatement. The monarchy in Nepal was

20:32

formally abolished in 2008 and Guyanandra

20:34

had sort of stepped back from

20:36

power in 2006 in circumstances that

20:38

we can get into. So Nepal

20:41

is currently a secular republic, after

20:43

being a Hindu kingdom for 239

20:45

years previous to that. Now 77

20:47

years old is sort of at

20:49

the spring chicken by international standards.

20:52

Yeah, I mean he hasn't explicitly

20:54

called for his own reinstatement. I

20:56

think that scene was a bit

20:58

crass. But last month, he did

21:00

make a video address. He's been

21:03

living in Nepal since stepping down.

21:05

He's sort of been living in

21:07

a palace out of the public

21:09

eye. He made a video address

21:11

in which he didn't say we

21:14

should bring back the monarchy, but

21:16

he did say the time has

21:18

come for us to assume responsibility

21:20

to protect the country and bring

21:22

about national unity, which has sparked

21:25

this revived movement to put him

21:27

back on the throne. Fascinating. When

21:29

you say revived movement though, I

21:31

mean how widespread are we actually

21:34

talking? Like obviously an impressive crowd

21:36

is an impressive crowd, but how

21:38

much of the population do they

21:40

represent? Yeah, it's a good question

21:42

actually because it's definitely the flames

21:45

of the movement are being fanned

21:47

very specifically by certain political interests

21:49

that would like to see a

21:51

revived... One of those is the

21:53

Rastria Prajantantatra Party, which is the

21:56

fifth largest party in Nepal's parliament,

21:58

but it's a Hindu nationalist party

22:00

pro-Monique and their vision for Nepal.

22:02

It's not unlike what we've seen

22:04

unfolding in India under the BJP

22:07

party. Nepal does have an 80%

22:09

Hindu population. So far that nationalist

22:11

sentiment is kind of concentrated along

22:13

the border with India. It's nowhere

22:15

near the levels that we've seen

22:18

in India, but it is definitely

22:20

being exploited by Hindu nationalist politicians.

22:22

who see the restoration of a

22:24

specifically Hindu monarchy as being sort

22:26

of one step along the way

22:29

to creating that vision. Do you

22:31

see it that way as well

22:33

Julia because I mean regardless of

22:35

the people who would vote for

22:37

that nationalist party politically, the point

22:40

of a monarchy, the symbolism of

22:42

it, is that here is a

22:44

figurehead that represents who we are

22:46

and having a Hindu monarchy solidifies

22:49

the fact that you're a Hindu

22:51

nation. Is it that? I think

22:53

that's absolutely part of it, particularly

22:55

when you have a royal family

22:57

that is associated with one religion

23:00

or with a majority of the

23:02

population. But I think the purpose

23:04

of a royal family is very

23:06

often a political one, and I

23:08

think you know if you take

23:11

our country for example you know

23:13

we've so many times we have

23:15

this conversation oh what uses the

23:17

royal family what good do they

23:19

do they cost us a lot

23:22

of money you know who cares

23:24

if it brings in loads of

23:26

tourism but the the constitutional role

23:28

of the royal family I think

23:30

can arguably play an important role

23:33

with separating the glamour the extravagance

23:35

and the opulence of power. Yeah,

23:37

but they get to sit on

23:39

the gold chairs. They get to

23:41

sit on the gold chairs for

23:44

going to a Taylor Swift game.

23:46

Exactly, exactly. And I think, you

23:48

know, it is interesting because what

23:50

we have seen, particularly in the

23:52

last year, almost sort of historic

23:55

rejection. around the world of incumbents,

23:57

increasing dissatisfaction and anger at politicians.

23:59

And a lot of analysts and

24:01

historians are increasingly writing about how

24:03

we are entering a period of

24:06

terrible 20s, that the lingering impacts

24:08

of the COVID-19 pandemic and inflation

24:10

rising, and this idea that has

24:12

caused so much populism to be

24:15

fermented around the world, a rejection

24:17

of the current ruling class, you

24:19

know, the idea of... the benevolent

24:21

dictator as the ideal form of

24:23

government. We've had this sort of

24:26

idea since Plato's idea of a

24:28

philosopher-king. Okay, but before we go

24:30

to the ancient Greeks, I mean

24:32

when it comes to this guy

24:34

Holden, when you're choosing this person

24:37

as your king, as your representative,

24:39

he was, as Rebecca alluded to,

24:41

turfed out, the very man that

24:43

was kicked out in the first

24:45

place. What did Guianendra do to

24:48

be removed? Yeah, well he came

24:50

to power in bizarre circumstances after...

24:52

his brother Birendra Vichram Shah was

24:54

killed along with many other members

24:56

of the royal family in a

24:59

massacre carried out by a family

25:01

member in 2001. When he first,

25:03

when Guillendred first took over he

25:05

continued as a constitutional monarch with

25:07

no executive powers for a few

25:10

years, but then in 2005 he

25:12

seized absolute power saying he needed

25:14

emergency powers to defeat Amaroist. rebel

25:16

group. This wasn't just a pretext.

25:18

There had been a conflict between

25:21

the Nepalese authorities and Maoist rebels

25:23

and thousands of people had died

25:25

over the course of two decades

25:27

of civil war. But the absolute

25:29

power that he took wasn't accepted

25:32

by the Nepalese people. He started

25:34

jailing politicians, he was jailing journalists,

25:36

he ruled via the military. and

25:38

this was sort of unpopular enough

25:41

that he was forced out of

25:43

power, forced to hand over to

25:45

a multi-party government and two years

25:47

later that multi-party government abolished the

25:49

monarchy entirely. And just to underline

25:52

Rebecca what Holden mentioned there, it

25:54

was pretty horrific the circumstances in

25:56

which he personally came to the

25:58

throne. Yeah, and actually I think

26:00

this sort of speaks to the

26:03

way that his image has changed

26:05

over the last 20 years or

26:07

so, because Gienendra wasn't actually at

26:09

the palace when this massacre took

26:11

place. His wife and a couple

26:14

of his children were there. They

26:16

all survived. The massacre was carried

26:18

out by the crown prince, DePendra,

26:20

who was 29 years old at

26:22

the time. He just opened fire

26:25

on the family during a gathering

26:27

at the palace, killing his father

26:29

of the king, his mother, several

26:31

of his siblings, and other royals.

26:33

And this has fueled conspiracy theories.

26:36

There are a few things about

26:38

it that don't quite add up,

26:40

I have to admit. There's lots

26:42

of conflicting accounts of who shot

26:44

who and when some people. claim

26:47

they saw DePendra being shot and

26:49

he was supposed to be the

26:51

one that was carrying out the

26:53

shooting, you know, there's lots of

26:56

conflicting stories. The official investigation into

26:58

the massacre only lasted two weeks,

27:00

which isn't a very long time

27:02

to investigate the massacre of basically

27:04

your entire royal family. And also

27:07

the fact that DePendra was right-handed,

27:09

but he shot himself at the

27:11

end of the rampage supposedly in

27:13

the left side of his head,

27:15

which would be quite an unusual

27:18

thing to assume. But I think

27:20

the fact that there are now

27:22

so many people calling for his

27:24

return does show that his image

27:26

has certainly changed and he hasn't

27:29

done it. I mean he has

27:31

been... mostly out of the public

27:33

eye during that time. So what

27:35

has actually changed of the circumstances

27:37

in Nepal, because actually at this

27:40

sort of pro-monarchy rally on Sunday,

27:42

journalists spoke to demonstrators who had

27:44

been involved in the massive street

27:46

protests in 2006 that led to

27:48

Gienandra reinstating Parliament and giving up

27:51

and ultimately then giving up his

27:53

powers. Lots of people who had...

27:55

against him and now protesting for

27:57

him to come back and that's

27:59

really to do with the situation

28:02

that Nepal finds itself in since.

28:04

I mean, one major factor is

28:06

the first for stability, the perceived

28:08

stability that a monarchy might offer.

28:10

Since 2008, Nepal has seen 13

28:13

governments come and go and just

28:15

for context, you know, Italy, which

28:17

you're seeing as being chronically unable

28:19

to hold on to its government,

28:22

has only had eight prime ministers

28:24

in that time. So there really

28:26

has been a lot of chopping

28:28

and changing. they perceive politicians as

28:30

being corrupt and venal and not having

28:32

their interests in heart and I think

28:34

again it comes back to the sort

28:36

of idealized image of a monarchy that

28:38

it can be above commercial interests or

28:40

political sectarianism. But also I guess that

28:42

feeling of nostalgia that Rebecca mentioned earlier when

28:45

she said better the devil you know holding

28:47

I mean there's that thing of Nepal changing

28:49

in progressive ways that are good for the

28:52

economy I mean I saw an article in

28:54

the times where a travel journalist had been

28:56

to the Himalayas and said The journey from

28:58

the airport to base camp is now 45

29:01

minutes by road and it used to be

29:03

the first day of your track. So there

29:05

are advantages to what's changed in the pool,

29:07

but I suppose the people feel we want

29:10

to go back often to a simpler time.

29:12

Yeah, there's a mixture I think of

29:14

nostalgia, of a sense of... the state

29:16

as a religious body, which has

29:18

dissipated with the loss of this

29:20

sort of specifically Hindu kingdom. But

29:22

I think there is also a

29:24

feeling that these signs of progress,

29:26

the roads, the communications, they haven't

29:28

benefited as broad a sway of

29:30

the Nepalese population as they could

29:33

have done. And you know, when

29:35

you have a wealthy ruling class

29:37

and when there seems to have

29:39

been widespread corruption, and when you

29:41

also have very wealthy tourists dropping

29:43

in and you seem to be

29:45

seeing infrastructure, projects that benefit them and

29:47

not you, that is going to kind of adds

29:49

to that feeling of, well, why can't we go

29:51

back to how things used to be, even if

29:53

how things used to be was actually

29:55

just replacing one set of privileged

29:57

rulers with another. Yes, and of

29:59

course. Rebecca just before we return to

30:01

Julia's grand a sweep of history, what does

30:04

this mean for us? I mean, why does

30:06

it matter to people listening to this, what's

30:08

happening in Nepal? I think the Hindu

30:10

nationalism element definitely is something that has

30:12

been making waves in the wider world.

30:14

What we have seen, which has been...

30:17

I think it's kind of the one

30:19

to watch from an outside perspective is

30:21

we've seen lots of incidents fueled by

30:23

social media of outrage being stoked up

30:25

against, you know, desecration of Hindu practices

30:27

and being alleged in Nepal. So you've

30:30

had instance where for instance there was

30:32

video footage of people eating beef which

30:34

is obviously a kind of a taboo

30:36

in the Hindu religion in the eastern

30:38

part of Nepal. Those were shared

30:40

and it's all about generating this

30:42

outrage and for Hindu nationalist politicians

30:44

in Nepal who are the political

30:46

minority. they certainly see this pro-monarchy

30:48

sentiment as being a tool that

30:50

can sort of catapult them into

30:52

the spotlight a bit more centrally

30:54

within Parliament. You've been on this show

30:56

a long time. You know, going back to

30:58

year dot of the week unwrapped, we've discussed

31:01

monarchy is another coming, are they going, you

31:03

know, is Jamaica going to leave the Commonwealth,

31:05

is Australia going to vote against the King,

31:07

is Saudi Arabia going to end up with

31:09

a more democratic system? I mean, actually, what's

31:11

your view on Nepal? It would be

31:13

really interesting to see how it goes,

31:15

because Nepal has had such prolonged political

31:18

instability. I mean, we've talked about them

31:20

having had 13 governments since 2008, but

31:22

even before then it wasn't as if

31:24

they just had a constitutional monarch. and

31:26

then it all just sort of descended

31:29

like even then there was there's been

31:31

a lot of political instability, a lot

31:33

of collapses of government. I mean, we

31:35

talked about how Gynandra actually governed for

31:37

his first years as constitutional monarch, which

31:40

he did, but he also unilaterally dissolved

31:42

parliament three times during that period where

31:44

he was supposedly being, you know, a

31:46

well-behaved modern monarch. So Nepal has never

31:49

really had a chance to have that

31:51

prolonged democratic experiment. And so there is

31:53

that fundamental weakness, you know, Nepalese democracy

31:55

is not built on a strong and

31:58

long-lasting foundation foundation so really. I hate

32:00

to sit on the fence,

32:03

but really anything

32:05

could happen. Okay,

32:07

up next, to

32:09

Fishy on a

32:11

Dizzy from Holden.

32:14

Holden, you're finishing

32:16

the show, what do you

32:18

think this week

32:20

should be remembered

32:22

for? If your

32:24

kids are misbehaving,

32:26

call Captain Bert's eye. Hmm,

32:29

can I eat this? This

32:31

is an oyster. Oh, yeah.

32:34

We should open it right

32:36

here. That is the oyster's

32:38

mouth. And then if we

32:41

open the jaws, we could

32:43

get the jewels. And I'm

32:45

gonna just crack this

32:48

open. Yeah, this is hard.

32:50

How do we open it?

32:53

I'm going for the hammer.

32:55

I mean it's child abuse as far

32:57

as I'm concerned. The video kids

32:59

try shellfish from high hoe kids.

33:01

Roal cushy oysters if you're interested

33:03

in the specifics. What's the story

33:05

olden? This is research published by

33:07

the University of Bristol on Tuesday,

33:09

which found that children who eat

33:11

more seafood are more likely to

33:13

be friendly and kind than those

33:15

who don't. It was a fairly

33:17

large study that looked at the

33:19

diets and behavior of just under

33:21

6,000 children at age 7 and

33:24

9, and it found a statistically

33:26

significant link between eating fish and

33:28

what it calls pro-social behaviors, which

33:30

includes measures of friendliness, altruism and

33:33

sharing. Okay, I mean you mentioned

33:35

Captain Birdseye in your teas. I

33:37

suppose we should clear up. Was

33:39

this funded by a fish company?

33:42

Because if you were a fish

33:44

company, this is the survey you'd

33:46

want, isn't it? It would be,

33:49

but no, it wasn't. It was

33:51

mostly through funding from the UK

33:53

government. Okay, so children eating, how

33:56

much fish are children eating and how

33:58

much should they be eating? two portions

34:00

a week or 190 grams a week.

34:02

That is almost all of the children

34:05

in this study weren't eating that much.

34:07

So even those who were at the

34:09

kind of the fissier end of the

34:12

spectrum were still falling below that recommended

34:14

quantity. But those who were closest to

34:16

it were At age 7 35% less

34:18

likely to have poor social behaviour and

34:21

by the age of 9 that gap

34:23

had increased to 45% so quite significant

34:25

differences in behaviour. Okay and before we

34:27

get on to the business of behaviour

34:30

which is fascinating but just on the

34:32

question of fish Julia surely one reason

34:34

that some children eat less fish is

34:37

because it costs more. Two salmon fillets

34:39

on Tesco today are 16 pound 35

34:41

per kilo. That's four pounds 20 for

34:43

two small fillets, a lot more than

34:46

beef, lamb, pork, a lot more than

34:48

chicken. So it's difficult for families to

34:50

feed their kids fish. It's very difficult

34:52

for families to feed their kids fish.

34:55

It's very difficult for them to feed

34:57

their kids vegetables. We increasingly get reports

34:59

about growing obesity and low food security

35:02

in the UK as we all know

35:04

we're in. a cost of living crisis

35:06

at the moment, there was a study

35:08

by Bernardo's, a children's charity recently, that

35:11

said that a quarter of parents in

35:13

the UK with children under the age

35:15

of 18 said that they struggled to

35:17

provide sufficient food for their kids over

35:20

the past 12 months. Nearly one in

35:22

10 have made use of a local

35:24

food bank in the past 12 months,

35:27

that's according to Ugov. I think when

35:29

it comes to what... parents feed their

35:31

kids, it is very difficult to be

35:33

healthy. The majority of children's options, food

35:36

options at restaurants is very unhealthy. It

35:38

relies on fried and breaded, you know,

35:40

even the fish options are fish fingers.

35:42

burgers, it's something that I think is

35:45

a growing problem particularly for our public

35:47

health as well as how our children

35:49

develop in this country. Rebecca how do

35:52

we compare with other countries in getting

35:54

children to eat fish? Well I think

35:56

this actually is what it all comes

35:58

down to, you know, in terms of

36:01

why parents might not be feeding their

36:03

children fish in the quantities that they

36:05

should be, there are some health reasons,

36:08

you know, there was a bit of

36:10

a scare over mercury, I don't know

36:12

if you saw this last year, there

36:14

was a bit of a scare over

36:17

mercury, I don't know if you saw

36:19

this last year, there was an allowed

36:21

for any fish except tuna, tuna, but

36:23

it doesn't seem to be that there's

36:26

any health justification for this. literally just

36:28

that tuna tends to have more mercury

36:30

in it yeah than other fish. But

36:33

the other thing, and I think this

36:35

is alluded to kind of within the

36:37

study itself, because in that Bristol University

36:39

study, one thing that stood out was

36:42

that almost half of the fish intake

36:44

of the children participating was breaded or

36:46

battered, and that reflects a more widespread

36:48

issue in the UK particularly, which is

36:51

unfamiliar, and that reflects a more widespread

36:53

issue in the UK, particularly, which is

36:55

unfamiliarity and almost squeamishness around non-battered fish

36:58

and shellfish, you know, which isn't just

37:00

a case of fussy children. wouldn't. You've

37:02

never eaten an oyster. I just can't

37:04

bear the idea of it. I mean

37:07

it looks great. But this is the

37:09

thing, you know the UK has very

37:11

very rich waters you know for things

37:13

like crab, sardine, languish, lobsters, very little

37:16

of which is eaten here, most of

37:18

which is exported to continental Europe and

37:20

what we do eat here is usually

37:23

in a very sanitized process form. There

37:25

is an aversion I think to eating

37:27

whole fish and to eating you know,

37:29

And even people who do enjoy eating

37:32

those things in a restaurant, there is

37:34

a lack of confidence around preparing it.

37:36

And so, and you know, as you

37:38

alluded to, there is a cost factor

37:41

too. SeaFishes 2024 report stress that seafood

37:43

consumption in the UK has been... decline

37:45

since COVID and that's due to cost

37:48

of living pressures. The only product areas

37:50

that haven't shown a downturn are the

37:52

budget-friendly ones like frozen seafood, fish fingers,

37:54

fish pie mix and this creates a

37:57

vicious circle you know because there was

37:59

a survey last year from the Marine

38:01

Stewards Ship Council that found that 86%

38:03

of Brits only eat seafood they're familiar

38:06

with and in the UK that overwhelmingly

38:08

means what's called the big five which

38:10

is cod tuna salmon salmon had a

38:13

comprawns. So if consumption is declining overall

38:15

and is becoming more narrowly focused on

38:17

what is most affordable, that means that

38:19

the current young generation are developing an

38:22

even more restrictive palate when it comes

38:24

to seafood. Although all those things are

38:26

delicious patties, just saying there's some reason

38:28

people put them in breadcrumbs, which is

38:31

they're tasty. Everything is delicious pattest. But

38:33

I think that sort of squeamishness or

38:35

you know the desire to only eat

38:38

cod or salmon or prawns, like those

38:40

are at the... expensive end of the

38:42

scale. You can eat herring or mackerel

38:44

very very cheaply. Can I just put

38:47

a shout out for mackerel sashimi? It's

38:49

an underappreciated order at my local sushi

38:51

place and it's like half the price

38:54

of the seven in the tuna is

38:56

so good. And you know a whole

38:58

mackerel is also very cheap but I

39:00

do sympathize with parents who might be

39:03

listening and thinking how am I going

39:05

to get my child to eat a

39:07

whole mackerel that doesn't seem like a

39:09

realistic prospect. But I think you know

39:12

it is it is about eating is

39:14

a lot about passing on your own

39:16

tastes and preferences to children. So if

39:19

parents, grandparents aren't willing to eat fish

39:21

in all its forms, then it is

39:23

very unlikely that children are going to

39:25

kind of pick it up themselves. Yeah,

39:28

I want you to know that during

39:30

that whole monologue, Holden, producer Ali, has

39:32

just been writing on our communication screen.

39:34

Barbecue, obviously, but to what extent... Does

39:37

what we eat affect our behavior? So

39:39

here is my issue with this study.

39:41

The original study, the way the hypothesis

39:44

was framed was that children who consumed

39:46

the least amounts of seafood were less

39:48

likely to be pro-social. And so I'm

39:50

not even sure about the premise, the

39:53

idea that eating fish makes you friendly,

39:55

but one thing that I do think

39:57

is very, very interesting is the politics

39:59

of our food choices. And I was

40:02

reading around about this, and I came

40:04

across another study, which is different but

40:06

linked, and it was about meat and

40:09

masculinity. And it was a study in

40:11

2015 in Europe that found that new

40:13

masculinity ideologies, ideas of masculinity that revolve

40:15

around things like sensitivity, empathy, caring about

40:18

the environment, not the sort of older

40:20

ideas of masculinity about strength and hunter-gatherers,

40:22

new masculinity ideologies, questioned popular beliefs like

40:24

real men eat meat, something that we

40:27

have sort of socialised ourselves in for

40:29

many many years, that it is manly

40:31

to eat red meat. The more men,

40:34

the study found, identify with these new

40:36

types of masculinity, the less meat they

40:38

chose to eat. It correlated positively with

40:40

attitudes towards vegetarians as well. And so,

40:43

I think this idea of, you know,

40:45

our food choices being political or being

40:47

associated with different behaviors, I think is

40:49

a really, really interesting one. Well, it's

40:52

back to that thing of cost again,

40:54

though, isn't it? Exactly. Rebecca, when it

40:56

comes to, I mean, obviously what I'm

40:59

not saying is that working class kids

41:01

aren't friendly, although they haven't quantified exactly

41:03

what friendly means in the context of

41:05

this study, but assuming that friendly means,

41:08

you know, sort of spoke to the

41:10

people doing the survey and asked interested

41:12

questions and participating. in discussion. Those are

41:14

qualities that are more likely probably to

41:17

be found in comfortable middle class homes,

41:19

aren't they? You know, children... that feel

41:21

like they're in an environment that feels

41:24

supportive are more likely to be doing

41:26

that and that environment is more likely

41:28

to be able to afford fish? I

41:30

mean is it just correlation not causation?

41:33

I mean I think to some extent

41:35

yeah I mean the fact that around

41:37

half of the fish was being consumed

41:40

by the children in the study was

41:42

battered or breaded you know it does

41:44

just mean they're not all being fed

41:46

on you know mackerel sashimi by their

41:49

well-meaning middle-class parents but there is certainly

41:51

an element of element of element as

41:53

well. So if you're living in a

41:55

house where your parents are preparing you

41:58

fresh fish for dinner, yeah, there is...

42:00

They're cooking period, aren't they? Yeah, there's

42:02

a socio-economic correlation there for sure. And

42:05

that, you know, our perception of what

42:07

counts as, you know, friendly behavior, of

42:09

what counts, as compliant behavior from children,

42:11

is very culturally influenced as well. And

42:14

I mean, I don't know how much

42:16

the study was controlled for socio-economic background.

42:18

I mean, usually there are those kinds

42:20

of controls in place in place, but,

42:23

but, you know, qualities like friendliness, helpfulness,

42:25

like that is very difficult to separate

42:27

from cultural stereotyping as well. But even

42:30

so, like we do know that there

42:32

are nutrients in fish that contribute to

42:34

the development and the functioning of the

42:36

brain. Yeah, I mean, it's very important

42:39

for children because a lot of the

42:41

qualities that we're talking about, you know,

42:43

friendliness, etc. They are an indicator of

42:45

maturity. And so if children are being

42:48

fed on a diet that has those

42:50

nutrients, you know, most of us know

42:52

about amiga, amigay. associated with healthy brain

42:55

function, that does mean that those children

42:57

who are consuming that are then more

42:59

likely, you know, theoretically, going by the

43:01

findings of this study, to exhibit that

43:04

slightly more mature, sophisticated brain functioning. Yeah,

43:06

so if we leave our skepticism to

43:08

one side then hold in and just

43:10

take this as red, the behavior can

43:13

be impacted by what you eat. Go

43:15

on, titillate us. What else should we

43:17

be eating that science says affects our

43:20

behavior? Yeah, I think one of the

43:22

things that caught my eye about this

43:24

story was that it... It feels as

43:26

if we've been through a period where

43:29

the general tide of research has been

43:31

pushing towards the idea that more and

43:33

more of our character and behaviour are

43:35

either defined by genetics or at least

43:38

influenced by genetics. And although it's sort

43:40

of hard to quantify exactly how many

43:42

studies we've seen going in one direction

43:45

or other, it does seem there's been

43:47

a few more stories around emphasising non-genetic

43:49

factors and how decisions be meant. Exactly.

43:51

Tuna, sugar, sugar is definitely another one.

43:54

You know, talk to any parent and

43:56

they'll say, you know, if you give

43:58

your child a lot of sugary food,

44:01

that is going to affect. the way

44:03

they behave. This is a sort of

44:05

slightly different study talking about kind of

44:07

long-term brain development and how that can

44:10

affect behavior over many years. We talked

44:12

about the story a couple of months

44:14

ago about how ultra-processed food can even

44:16

change the shape of your face, you

44:19

know, it changes sort of muscle structure

44:21

and bone density. So I think it

44:23

is just interesting to set alongside that

44:26

idea that our genes determine so much

44:28

of what we grow into. the idea

44:30

that actually what we eat is providing

44:32

as many of those raw ingredients of

44:35

who we turn out to be. You're

44:37

all friendly fish people. Rebecca if I'm

44:39

inviting you round for a fishy dish

44:41

what are you having? Well I really

44:44

like oysters but I assume I'm not

44:46

going to get at your house. Yeah

44:48

Julia what's your favorite fish or seafood?

44:51

Well As someone who is raised by

44:53

an Indonesian mother, one of the nicest

44:55

things she cooks for me smells so

44:57

appalling. My father has nicknamed it 100-year-old

45:00

fish, but it is delicious and I'm

45:02

sure that the neighbours would complain. And

45:04

Holden? I'd say Thai fish curry, and

45:06

if you want to do it for

45:09

a special occasion, you can make it

45:11

all from scratch and it's amazing, but

45:13

it can also be really cheap and

45:16

quick. If you use sauce from a

45:18

jar, very cheap fish, take that. I've

45:20

never asked a culinary question if we've...

45:22

released Oliver in just

45:25

one and just swoop. swoop.

45:27

It's barbecue salmon for me, thanks

45:29

me, thanks for asking.

45:31

to thanks to Rebecca and

45:34

Julia, you Julia. can for

45:36

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46:06

I've been Ollie Man. Our music

46:08

In the meantime, I've

46:10

been Oli Mann. the

46:12

Our music is

46:15

by Tom the producer, the producer,

46:17

the producer, Audio. the got

46:19

fish balls for

46:21

lunch. I'm off to

46:24

eat them now.

46:26

Until we meet again

46:28

to Ollie, next week,

46:31

Ollie, Ollie, Ollie, Ollie, Ollie, Ollie, O

46:36

So,