0:00

the week ending Friday the 18th of

0:02

April and this is The Week

0:04

Unwrapped. In the past seven days we've

0:06

seen the UK government dramatically taking

0:08

control of British Steel's plant in Scunthorpe,

0:11

Rory McIlroy finally completing his career

0:13

grand slam, and Katy Perry becoming an

0:15

astronaut. What a time to be

0:17

alive. You can read all you need

0:19

to know about everything that matters

0:21

in The Week magazine. But we're here

0:23

to bring you some stories that

0:25

passed under the radar this week. Big

0:27

news, not making headlines right now.

0:29

with repercussions for all our lives. I'm

0:31

Arian McNichol. Let's unwrap the week.

0:36

And a little earlier than usual

0:38

because of the Easter holidays, joining

0:40

me today from the week's digital team,

0:43

it's Rebecca Evans. And we also

0:45

welcome back political journalist Katrina Stewart and

0:47

freelance journalist and women's health campaigner

0:49

Elizabeth Carr Ellis. But before we get

0:51

going, if not Katy Perry and

0:53

Lauren Sanchez, who, Elizabeth, would you like

0:56

to be stuck in a spaceship

0:58

with and why? Oh, easy. Chris Hemsworth.

1:00

I mean, do I have to

1:02

explain why? No, that's entirely

1:04

straightforward. Rebecca, how about you?

1:07

I'm probably an astronaut, so

1:09

I don't die. Oh, good shout. Yeah,

1:11

that's one thing that Chris Hemsworth might not

1:13

be able to help you with. Getting back

1:15

to Earth, Elizabeth. Katrina, what about you? There

1:17

is literally nobody that I would want to

1:20

be stuck in space with. I cannot think

1:22

of anything more horrifying. Don't you

1:24

think alone is worse? I think

1:26

alone is worse. Yeah, I'm pretty good

1:28

with my own company. All right, well, Rebecca,

1:30

you're up first. What do you think this

1:32

week should be remembered for? Britain's libraries are

1:34

grappling with a new issue, shelf

1:37

control. Because really

1:39

the people might be protesting my

1:41

book, but really what they're

1:43

protesting is my existence or the

1:45

existence of people like me.

1:47

And it just makes me sad

1:49

still that... people are still getting

1:51

that kind of implicit messaging

1:54

that they are something worth protesting.

1:56

That was writer Juno

1:58

Dawson speaking on RTE

2:00

in 2023. Rebecca, that was in

2:02

Ireland. What's been happening closer

2:04

to home? So when you think of

2:06

the idea of book bans, your mind might

2:08

jump straight to the US. Maybe someone

2:10

waving a copy of To Kill a Mockingbird

2:12

in one hand and holding a pitchfork

2:14

in the other. But here's

2:16

the thing. It's not just an

2:18

American issue anymore. An article in

2:20

The Guardian this week revealed a

2:22

worrying trend that's happening right here

2:24

in the UK. And that's that

2:27

librarians are reporting a growing number

2:29

of requests to remove books from

2:31

shelves. And these are not just

2:33

dusty conspiracy books either, but titles with

2:35

LGBTQ themes and books

2:37

on race and identity. And

2:40

yet with my history podcasting hat on,

2:42

if you'll let me wear that

2:44

for one second, I can confidently say

2:46

that books have been subject to

2:48

censorship and banning of various kinds in

2:50

the UK since at least the

2:53

14th century or thereabouts. So what's unusual

2:55

about what's happening now? Yes,

2:58

you're absolutely right. I think there's

3:00

a quite a storied history, if

3:02

you'll pardon the pun, about book

3:04

bans that happen not only in

3:06

the UK, but obviously in the

3:08

US and in the UK and

3:11

overseas. But what I think is

3:13

particularly interesting about this particular wave

3:15

of book bans is the fact

3:17

that demands and challenges are being

3:19

made by organised groups, individuals and

3:21

small groups of people. And that

3:24

influence is coming from across the

3:26

Atlantic in many cases. When we're

3:28

thinking of book bans, a lot of our

3:30

minds, as I mentioned, go to the US,

3:32

but that influence from the US might be

3:34

crossing the Atlantic in a way that we

3:36

haven't quite seen before in the UK before. And

3:38

yet, Katrina, demands from the community

3:41

are things that librarians have long

3:43

had to consider. You know, part

3:45

of a librarian's job is to

3:47

think about the books that are

3:49

going to best serve their community.

3:51

It would be rare, for example,

3:53

to have a collection that featured

3:55

pornography. aren't librarians always

3:58

low -level censoring in a way?

4:00

They are. And some book publishers

4:02

now are self -censoring. So there was

4:04

the issue a couple of years

4:06

ago with the changes that were

4:08

made to a reprint of Roald

4:10

Dahl's books because it was felt that

4:12

they just didn't match current sensibilities.

4:14

But I think the problem at

4:16

the moment is that there isn't

4:18

any... settled view on what current

4:20

sensibilities are. And one of the

4:22

issues is that the books that are

4:25

being targeted, and of course this

4:27

is all anecdotal because there aren't

4:29

any actual collections of data around

4:31

this, but anecdotally it's books that

4:33

pertain to the LGBTQ plus

4:35

community. And obviously that's of huge

4:37

concern because these communities have

4:39

fought so hard for equality and

4:41

they've fought hard for spaces

4:44

in public life. And the idea

4:46

that Generally, it's parents who

4:48

are challenging this or religious groups

4:50

who are asking for these

4:52

books to be removed. It's one

4:54

thing to have an expert

4:56

librarian making decisions about this and

4:58

looking at books that suit their community.

5:00

But when you have outside actors

5:03

who are campaigning, who are putting pressure

5:05

on librarians, that becomes quite a

5:07

different situation. So Katrina, who are

5:09

these action groups exactly? Who are

5:11

the groups who are having success in

5:13

censoring books in libraries in America?

5:15

And what success have they had over

5:17

there? Well, in the US,

5:19

there are evangelical Christian groups that

5:21

are putting big pressure on

5:24

libraries and school libraries in particular

5:26

to remove certain LGBT plus. There

5:29

are the individual parents who are

5:31

campaigning and there is a man

5:33

in Florida, in Clay County, Florida,

5:35

called Bruce Friedman, who's become colloquially

5:38

known. as the Michael Jordan of

5:40

book banning, because he is so

5:42

prolific and so successful. He's a

5:44

father of one, he's 59, and

5:46

his claim to fame is that

5:48

he's successfully petitioned local libraries and

5:51

schools to remove one book per

5:53

day over the past two and

5:55

a half years. So the pressure

5:57

is generally coming from political groups

5:59

on the right, from religious groups

6:01

on the right, but then

6:03

you have these individual campaigners who

6:05

are having a huge impact.

6:08

on their local school districts. Should

6:11

one man have that kind of influence? I

6:13

think most great thinking people would say

6:15

very much no. And yet, Elizabeth, you

6:17

know, meanwhile, some people on

6:19

the left want to censor themes

6:21

of empire and racism, and

6:23

then some people on the right

6:25

want to limit access to LGBTQ

6:28

plus titles like we're talking about.

6:30

Between cancelling and deplatforming and

6:32

public shaming and book banning, are

6:34

we just entering a less tolerant,

6:36

more censorious age? I don't think

6:38

so. I mean, books have, as

6:40

you said, books have been banned

6:43

throughout history. One of my favourite

6:45

is Madame Bovary. And obviously that

6:47

was banned because it was considered

6:49

far too sexual and naughty for

6:51

people to read. We had Candide

6:53

that was done for blasphemy, political

6:55

sedition. It's

6:57

really odd how many of these

7:00

books end up actually being classics

7:02

or considered classics and then put

7:04

onto bestseller lists and to university

7:06

reading books later. If

7:08

you're talking about left and

7:10

right, I think the whole

7:12

ridiculousness of trying to censor

7:14

books comes in the fact

7:16

that 1984 has been banned

7:18

for being anti -communist and pro

7:21

-communist. I mean, you

7:23

know, I'm not a huge fan of George

7:25

Orwell, but you've got to give the

7:27

man a round of applause for being able

7:29

to upset both sides of the argument

7:31

that way. I mean, Rebecca, you mentioned

7:33

earlier that a lot of what's going

7:35

on is based on anecdotal evidence. Might

7:38

it feel like there are more

7:40

calls for censorship than there actually are?

7:42

Or are there actually hard stats

7:44

supporting this? Well, I think if

7:46

we look back and into

7:48

not too much of the distant

7:50

past, really, there are some

7:53

stats that support a kind of

7:55

move towards excessive, arguably excessive

7:57

book banning. So, for example, in

7:59

2024, the Index on

8:01

Censorship found that 53 %

8:03

of librarians that they polled

8:05

had been asked to remove

8:07

books. in more than half

8:09

of those cases books were

8:11

actually taken off shelves this is

8:13

not just an issue of

8:15

lgbtq themed books either a 2023

8:18

study by sillip found that

8:20

a third of uk librarians had

8:22

been asked by members of

8:24

the public to censor or remove

8:26

books and this did identify

8:28

themes of race and empire as

8:30

among the most targeted alongside

8:32

lgbtq books and content So

8:35

it's clearly, although this particular study

8:37

that I've bought this week is

8:39

more anecdotal, there is clear evidence

8:41

that this is something that appears

8:43

to be on the rise. And

8:45

perhaps that's worrying, particularly in the

8:47

current political climate that we exist

8:49

in. You know, Elizabeth, censors

8:51

haven't always been on the right

8:53

side of history, obviously, as with

8:56

the examples that you were talking

8:58

about earlier. But aren't they at

9:00

least usually a pretty solid reflection

9:02

of their age? If you say

9:04

the censorship is reflecting the morals of

9:06

the time, then yes, but that

9:08

doesn't necessarily mean they're good. And of

9:11

course, it depends upon the morals

9:13

of the individual country. For example, Nazi

9:15

Germany burned books from everybody, from

9:17

Helen Keller to Albert Einstein, while at

9:19

the same time, they were given

9:21

Mein Kampf as wedding presents to newlyweds.

9:23

I mean, you know, that reflects

9:25

their morals at the time, but I

9:27

don't think we would necessarily say

9:29

their morals are particularly good. I think

9:31

the difference is now that people are

9:34

taking it more on themselves

9:36

to impose what they think is

9:38

morally correct. We have to

9:40

start realising that exposure does not

9:42

equal endorsement. Just because you

9:44

expose somebody to reading something does

9:47

not mean that you endorse

9:49

it. But as well

9:51

as that personal level

9:53

of censoriousness that we are

9:55

witnessing, Rebecca, there's also something

9:57

particularly odd going on,

9:59

it seems, at a kind of

10:01

state. based level, especially in the

10:03

United States. What's happening in

10:05

the US Naval Academy's library? There's

10:07

a particularly odd story there,

10:09

isn't there? Yeah, and I think

10:11

it's going to be pretty

10:14

emblematic of the Trump administration as

10:16

a whole, really. I saw

10:18

the story and I wasn't particularly

10:20

surprised. And it's the fact

10:22

that the US Naval Academy has

10:24

recently removed 400 books from

10:26

its library in what many are

10:28

describing as a sort of

10:30

anti -diversity purge. So gone are

10:32

some of the familiar titles that

10:34

would have been otherwise present,

10:36

such as I Know Why the

10:38

Caged Bird Sings by Maya

10:40

Angelou, which is a very

10:42

moving memoir about racism and

10:45

trauma. And similarly, gone

10:47

are critiques of segregation

10:49

and racism and examinations

10:51

of the Holocaust. But

10:53

ironically... And as Elizabeth

10:55

just mentioned there with Mein Kampf,

10:57

Mein Kampf has stayed within

10:59

the US Naval Academy Library and

11:01

another book called The Camp

11:03

of the Saints, which is commonly

11:05

promoted by white supremacists. So

11:07

these sorts of titles have remained

11:09

whilst critical race theory and

11:12

books on segregation, racism and discrimination

11:14

have been wiped. So I

11:16

think if we're really going to

11:18

talk about an agenda or

11:20

an indoctrination of how people are

11:22

viewing literature. We should probably start

11:24

here because we're looking at some

11:26

problematic titles that have stayed and

11:28

whether you agree that they should

11:30

stay or not is obviously entirely

11:32

up to you. But the fact

11:34

that diverse titles are being removed

11:36

while these are staying raises some

11:38

really worrying questions, I think. When

11:40

my mum immigrated to Australia in

11:42

the 1970s, the customs department had

11:44

the authority to stop imports and

11:46

they had a list of 15 ,000

11:48

books that were banned in Australia.

11:51

But my mum said that they

11:53

didn't tell you what they were,

11:55

so she and her friends turned

11:57

up at the airport, had their

11:59

suitcases rifled through and had all

12:01

their books confiscated. Wow.

12:03

Which is a kind of anecdote that I love, but it's

12:05

not relevant to the podcast. Okay,

12:08

well, we need to draw a

12:10

line under, if not straight through

12:12

that one. Up next, is there

12:14

an upside to doom scrolling? That's

12:16

after this. Katrina,

12:26

your turn. What do you think

12:28

this week should be remembered for? This

12:30

week should be remembered as the

12:32

week when doom schooling became dementia steving.

12:35

Like literally, she calls me to tell me

12:37

she sent me an email. Every

12:40

two hours, I sent you an email, son, did

12:42

you get it? Son,

12:44

I sent you an email, did you get

12:46

it? Two hours later, I sent you, mom, email

12:48

me, call me, you cannot do both. So

12:51

true story, I opened up her first email and said,

12:53

here's my email, give me a call. What the heck?

12:56

Comedian Ron Pearson there, currently on tour

12:58

in California, should our West Coast

13:00

listeners be at a loose end. But

13:02

Katrina, old people and tech, what's

13:04

the story? Well, most people have heard

13:07

of brain rot and doom scrolling.

13:09

And if you aren't aware of the

13:11

concerns around children and young people

13:13

and the effect of using digital services,

13:15

then where have you been? For

13:17

the past couple of years, there have

13:19

been concerns raised around digital dementia,

13:21

this idea that allowing our devices, whether

13:23

that's smartphones or computers, To

13:26

do a lot of our thinking for

13:28

us is slowing our brains. But new

13:30

research is challenging that idea. The first

13:32

generation of people who grew up with

13:34

tech is now approaching the age where

13:36

they might start showing signs of dementia.

13:39

And current thinking is that a

13:41

lifetime of digital use damages

13:43

cognitive function. But researchers in Texas

13:45

have found that actually people

13:47

in the over 50s category who

13:49

regularly use smartphones and laptops

13:51

have better than expected cognitive function.

13:55

This week, do we need to rethink

13:57

her negative perceptions of tech? I

13:59

mean, this does seem to fly in

14:01

the face of everything that we've

14:03

long presumed about tech and its impacts

14:05

on the brain. Have we just

14:07

been wrong about all of this the

14:09

whole time? I think that there

14:11

is, as with so many things. a

14:13

balance to be struck. I think

14:15

there's been a lot of anecdotal evidence

14:17

of people talking about the fact

14:19

that they can't navigate maps anymore because

14:21

they're so used to using Google

14:23

to get around with. And I am

14:25

one of those people that we

14:27

rely on search engines rather than looking

14:29

things up manually. And

14:31

doom scrolling is one of the

14:33

worst. I mean, personally, I feel

14:35

like my attention span is completely

14:38

through the floor because I'm so

14:40

used to just looking at little

14:42

clips of things on TikTok. But

14:44

these researchers at the University of

14:46

Texas, Austin, have done a wide

14:48

ranging study. So we've looked at

14:50

57 different studies, and that's more

14:52

than 400 ,000 adults with an average

14:55

age of about 68 years. Looking

14:58

at all of those studies, they

15:00

found absolutely no evidence to support the

15:02

digital dementia hypothesis. And they ruled

15:04

out outside factors such as health or

15:06

socioeconomic background. And it found that

15:08

digital devices keep your brain sharp if

15:11

they're used in the right way.

15:13

And that's why I'm saying there's a

15:15

bit of balance to be struck

15:17

here because... did go to a certain

15:19

point where if you were using

15:21

your smartphone and your laptop too much,

15:23

then the positive effects started to

15:26

wear off and things slid in the

15:28

wrong direction. This

15:30

idea of tech potentially being able to

15:32

sharpen the brain rather than the

15:34

opposite. I mean, could technology fix brain

15:36

rot, not just in older people,

15:38

but in anybody and contribute to cognition

15:40

regardless of age? I think it's

15:43

what Catriona says. It depends upon how

15:45

much you use it and how

15:47

you use it as well. If you're

15:49

just going to be watching pictures

15:51

of cats on the internet, I don't

15:53

really think that's going to help

15:55

you with the brain rot. I mean,

15:58

it certainly has. helped mine that's

16:00

for certain. I found it very

16:02

interesting as well looking at the positives

16:04

because as Kat says you know we're so

16:06

used to hearing about the negatives all

16:08

the time. A study said that the over

16:10

50s who used it found they had

16:12

a better social life, they were less lonely,

16:15

there was a 9 % reduction in depressive

16:17

symptom scores. you know and i was

16:19

like really using the internet can make like

16:21

feel like that but i know for

16:23

myself as a campaigner a lot of the

16:25

friends i have now i have met

16:27

online on twitter and the likes because we

16:29

have similar interests and then we go

16:32

for coffee and it's like you've met them

16:34

yesterday you know it's like you've always

16:36

been friends So I think we

16:38

have to stop looking at technology

16:40

as being bad and look at how

16:42

we can bring out the most

16:44

positive parts of it for definite. Rebecca,

16:46

you can interpret this question either

16:48

broadly or specifically, but what are we

16:50

meant to do when confronted with

16:52

seemingly conflicting scientific research? You know, there

16:54

have been numerous studies that have

16:56

pointed to the phenomenon of digital dementia

16:58

being a real thing. Does this

17:00

study then supersede those or can both

17:02

exist similar? simultaneously in some kind

17:04

of weird state of cognitively dissonant harmony

17:06

yeah i think it's hard because

17:08

a lot of you know when we're

17:10

looking at all of these studies

17:12

you'll see a study come out one

17:14

week that says red wine is

17:16

actually really good for you and then

17:18

and the next week it will

17:20

be red wine is actually really bad

17:22

for you and if you drink

17:24

it you'll die so it's very difficult

17:26

to kind of strike a balance

17:28

when there's conflicting information i totally understand

17:30

that but As both Kat

17:32

and Elizabeth have touched upon, I

17:34

think it really is just about

17:36

balance, right? It's about harnessing technology

17:38

in a way that's positive for

17:40

all of us. I think we

17:42

can pretty much safely say that

17:44

doom scrolling is probably a bad

17:46

idea because it does what it

17:49

says on the tin. It's pretty

17:51

awful. And yes, I'm guilty of

17:53

it. I think most people are

17:55

guilty of it to some degree.

17:57

But I think what's so important

17:59

with the way that we use

18:01

tech, particularly for older people in

18:03

the future, is harnessing it for

18:05

the purposes of of healthy aging

18:07

is integrating it into our lives

18:09

in a beneficial way. So I

18:11

think we're really on the cusp

18:13

of sort of a major shift

18:15

in the way that we think

18:17

about aging and technology. I think

18:19

for a long time, the narrative

18:21

has been that tech is something

18:23

that younger people just get and

18:25

older generations will just struggle with.

18:27

But I think this research that

18:29

Katz brought to the table is

18:31

challenging that in a really powerful

18:33

way. I think it's suggesting that

18:35

digital engagement isn't just manageable. for

18:37

older adults, it's actually beneficial. And,

18:39

you know, we could see a

18:41

future where tech could be fully

18:43

integrated into what we understand as

18:45

healthy aging. We might see health

18:47

plans that can kind of integrate

18:49

digital tasks into people's daily lives.

18:51

Brain training doesn't have to just

18:53

be like Sudoku and puzzles and

18:55

crosswords, although, you know, over 50s,

18:57

that is not that old. But

18:59

if we're looking towards the kind

19:01

of older demographic. sedentary activity doesn't

19:03

have to be the only thing

19:05

if we invest in technology now

19:07

if we look into digital tech

19:09

spaces we can make tech truly

19:11

integrated into the lives of older

19:13

people in a in a beneficial

19:15

way that hopefully staves off dementia

19:17

and other brain related illnesses Yeah,

19:19

that idea of incorporating digital into

19:22

older people's lives reminds me, Katrina,

19:24

of this long -running study into

19:26

nuns. I don't know if you've

19:28

heard about this, how this group

19:30

of nuns were able to perform

19:33

their duties well into their 90s,

19:35

but scientists later discovered that they

19:37

all had quite late -stage Alzheimer's. It

19:39

was the routine, as it were,

19:41

that kept them active, even as

19:43

other aspects of their brain started

19:46

to deteriorate. I mean, how much

19:48

of that? is what's happening in

19:50

this new digital study. The nun

19:52

study is fascinating. So the researchers

19:54

wanted to study nuns because the

19:57

variables around them hardly changed. They

19:59

lived in the same places for

20:01

a long time. They didn't have

20:03

a lot of interference from outside

20:05

factors. And there was one nun

20:07

in particular, Sister Mary, who at

20:10

the age of 101, her

20:12

brain scans showed that she did

20:14

have signs of Alzheimer's. She had

20:16

plaque in her brain, an

20:19

indicator of cognitive decline, but actually

20:21

she was still sharp as a

20:23

tack. And they found that brains

20:25

can have cognitive reserves that help

20:27

overcome the challenges that dementia and

20:29

Alzheimer's bring. But there was something

20:31

else about that that I find

20:33

quite interesting that sort of interweaves

20:35

with what we're talking about. One

20:37

of the benefits of being online,

20:39

of using digital technology, is that

20:42

it helps keep you connected. And

20:44

we know that isolation is... detrimental

20:46

to your mental well -being and

20:48

your cognitive state. And I wonder

20:50

if partly it's because these nuns

20:52

lived together and were constantly socialising

20:54

and had people around them all

20:56

of the time. On a personal

20:58

level, my mum is deaf, so

21:00

I've never been able to speak

21:02

to her on the phone. And

21:04

all of my friends' parents phone

21:06

them up all the time, but

21:08

I can't have that sort of

21:11

communication with my mum. And during

21:13

the pandemic, she was completely isolated,

21:15

so I got her an iPad. And

21:17

I taught her how to use FaceTime,

21:20

which has been a blessing and a

21:22

curse because now she phones me all

21:24

of the time. But I saw the

21:26

sort of decline in her cognitive function

21:28

during and just after the pandemic. But

21:30

having this way of communicating has been

21:32

really beneficial. I think we also have

21:34

to remember as well that not all

21:36

older people are online. Some

21:38

struggle to use the technology.

21:41

Age UK say that they carried

21:43

out a study recently that

21:45

found that 31 % of over

21:47

60s, which they say is around

21:49

5 .1 million people. see

21:51

that life is really hard now

21:53

compared to five years ago, because a

21:56

lot of the things that you

21:58

want to do are online. So I

22:00

think there does need to be

22:02

a lot of support for older people

22:04

to use these technologies. Yeah, I

22:06

mean, that's the big question, isn't it,

22:08

Elizabeth? Who gets left out? You

22:11

know, not all older people have devices

22:13

or access, or even in some

22:15

cases, the digital literacy to get started.

22:17

And not all younger people, for

22:19

that matter. Are there some brains that

22:21

are going to be left behind

22:23

here? 2 .3 million over 65s don't

22:26

use the internet and 48 % of

22:28

them are over 75s. So when you

22:30

have access to NHS services, for

22:32

example, which are becoming increasingly more online,

22:34

they just can't get to it.

22:36

And as you said, younger people too

22:38

are finding themselves cut out. A

22:41

survey in 2023 found that 14 %

22:43

of 8 to 25 -year -olds lacked access

22:45

to a device suitable for learning,

22:47

for example. A few years ago, I

22:49

was at a smart city conference

22:51

in China, and there was a very

22:53

interesting talk about internet usage from

22:56

one of the executives who was working

22:58

in New York at the time.

23:00

And she was talking about LinkNYC, which

23:02

was turning New York phone booths

23:04

into Wi -Fi hotspots. And she says

23:06

somebody had contacted her because they had

23:08

just finished their degree purely by

23:11

using the Wi -Fi that was free

23:13

and publicly available. I thought that was

23:15

a brilliant... it stayed with me

23:17

all these years later and it would

23:19

be great to see something similar

23:21

you know we have loads of old

23:23

phone boxes in britain let's turn

23:26

them into public wi -fi spaces so

23:28

people who can't afford to have broadband

23:30

can get it definitely i mean

23:32

rebecca like is this actually a tech

23:34

story or is it something about

23:37

connection and stimulation and engagement and

23:39

learning that we're talking about here

23:41

that promotes brain function, not devices

23:43

and technology per se. I think

23:45

it's a bit of both, really,

23:47

because obviously we've just we've touched

23:49

upon how essential communication can be.

23:52

And I think particularly the pandemic

23:54

showed us that it helped a

23:56

lot of people just like had

23:58

identified to see that their older

24:00

relatives and friends are perhaps cut

24:02

off in a way that they

24:04

don't. really realize because I think

24:06

younger generations kind of take tech

24:09

for granted particularly if we've had

24:11

tech in our lives since the

24:13

start or for most of our

24:15

adult lives we take it as

24:17

kind of second nature and a

24:19

lot of these digital tasks seem

24:21

kind of mundane like filling in

24:24

a form or booking a GP

24:26

appointment or something like that but

24:28

for older people who might not

24:30

have that kind of similar relationship

24:32

with tech it can be not

24:34

only just a barrier to leap

24:36

hope once that barrier

24:38

is conquered, I think it can

24:41

be really beneficial. So I

24:43

think the story, yes, is about

24:45

tech at its base, but

24:47

it's also about all of the

24:49

things that technology can provide

24:51

for people, whether they are an

24:53

older generation or not. Katrina,

24:56

do you imagine in the future

24:58

we're going to see doctors

25:00

prescribing tech devices, phones and computers

25:02

and laptops? iPads to people

25:04

in a bid to prevent cognitive

25:06

decline? I think it's quite difficult

25:08

to predict that sort of future

25:11

for the NHS in particular, because

25:13

there are so many basics that

25:15

need to be rectified first. But

25:17

in Scotland, there are local authorities

25:19

that give iPads to all pupils

25:21

and not only the iPads, but

25:23

they give facilities for charging, they

25:26

give access to Wi -Fi at

25:28

home. And there was huge resistance

25:30

to that, but actually we've managed to

25:32

put safeguards in place to make sure that

25:34

this tech use is really effective. It's

25:36

had a big impact in

25:39

the classroom and it has

25:41

given the kind of social

25:43

equity that was lacking before,

25:45

particularly in very socioeconomically deprived

25:47

areas of Scotland. And so

25:49

if education can do this,

25:51

then medicine may very well

25:53

follow. OK, well, next up,

25:55

another slightly counterintuitive story. Why

25:58

downing 650 pints could be

26:00

a good thing. That's after

26:02

this. Elizabeth,

26:12

you're finishing the show. What do

26:14

you think this week should be remembered

26:16

for? Are we calling time on

26:18

the demise of the pub? I'm here

26:20

at the Gun Porters Birmingham. And

26:23

the gunmaker's arms downing a pint

26:25

of our locally brewed ale from the

26:27

Two Towers Brewery. Can you count

26:29

three to one for me, please? Three,

26:31

two, one. Thank

26:39

you.

26:43

Now, it was former MP's assistant

26:45

Jay Chan downing a pint

26:47

in that dead air right there,

26:49

who has pledged to... Down

26:51

a pint, actually, in all 650

26:53

UK constituencies as part of

26:55

a campaign to support pubs. Elizabeth,

26:57

why is he doing this?

26:59

I wasn't only impressed that he

27:01

can down a pint in

27:04

eight seconds, but I'm impressed because

27:06

he's doing it as the

27:08

parliamentary group has launched an inquiry

27:10

into the important role of

27:12

beer and pubs in British life

27:14

and how it can drive

27:16

economic growth. And this comes after...

27:18

A very worrying report from camera

27:21

that found that 303 pubs

27:23

have closed this year in England,

27:25

Scotland and Wales, and around

27:27

a thousand closed last year across

27:29

the country too. OK, so

27:31

pubs closing in the UK, that's

27:34

hardly a new story, nor

27:36

are efforts to try to save

27:38

them entirely. What's different about

27:40

what's going on this time? What's

27:42

different is they are actually

27:44

looking at it in terms of

27:47

the economic importance that beer

27:49

and pubs have to British life.

27:51

The beer and pub industry

27:53

has over a million jobs in

27:55

it and it contributes £28 .1

27:57

billion to the economy. That

28:00

is a huge amount of money

28:02

that we can't afford to

28:04

lose. And also I think the

28:06

community aspect of pubs is

28:08

certainly being viewed as much more.

28:11

importantly these days too. And that's

28:13

why I have to admit

28:16

to a personal interest in this.

28:18

My mum and sister have

28:20

both worked as barmaids and my

28:22

nephew used to own two

28:24

pubs. He now only has one

28:26

because of the financial troubles

28:28

and the difficulties that pubs are

28:30

going through. For example,

28:32

his electricity bill went up from

28:34

£2 ,000 a month to £9 ,000

28:37

a month just for electricity in

28:39

one bar. So they had to

28:41

cut down and that's why he's

28:43

gone from having two bars to

28:45

one bar. His is a local

28:47

pub. It's in Newcastle, which everybody

28:50

thinks of nightlife and wild times

28:52

and parties. But his is a

28:54

proper local community pub. They host

28:56

book groups, for example. They

28:58

do things for children. They do

29:00

events for dogs. At Christmas, he

29:03

used to open just for his

29:05

old regulars who would have nobody

29:07

else to have Christmas lunch with.

29:09

And they had Christmas lunch in

29:11

his pub. We're seeing

29:13

this, we're seeing a huge amount

29:15

of community pubs opening up as well.

29:18

The most recent one, you know,

29:20

I've just found out was a 200

29:22

-year -old pub in Wigtown in Scotland

29:24

that's been saved. And there's been a

29:26

rise of more than 60 % in

29:28

the amount of communities that are...

29:30

saving their local pubs in the last

29:32

five years, as people recognise that

29:35

they're not just places to go and

29:37

get drunk, they're places where you

29:39

have a real community feel. Yeah, so

29:41

Rebecca, if the likely recommendation from

29:43

all of this is that pubs should

29:45

be supported because of not only

29:47

their contribution to the economy, but because

29:50

of what Elizabeth's talking about, their

29:52

contribution to communities, what sort of support

29:54

from the government Like,

29:56

are this working group likely to

29:58

recommend? Well, I think there's been

30:00

a number of issues that pubs

30:02

have faced, particularly in recent years.

30:05

And I think COVID is obviously

30:07

the one that obviously springs to

30:09

mind the fact that they lost

30:11

so much revenue. But pubs are

30:13

still facing real challenges to just

30:15

even keep the doors open, really.

30:18

I think we're looking at issues

30:20

like alcohol duty and VAT and

30:22

business rates. Studies

30:24

show that an estimated £1 in every

30:26

£3 goes straight to the taxman from

30:28

the publican's pocket, which is obviously a

30:30

huge issue in just running a business.

30:32

I think a lot of people just

30:35

see, it's easy to see pubs as

30:37

just a place that you go to

30:39

to have a drink and socialise, but

30:41

obviously they are businesses that people have

30:43

to fight. on a daily

30:45

basis to keep open so i

30:47

think when it comes to the

30:50

government looking at uh at issues

30:52

like these i think that there

30:54

needs to be proper intervention a

30:56

real recognition of the issues that

30:58

pubs have faced covid brexit tax,

31:01

the cost of living crisis, and

31:04

really working with publicans to address

31:06

these issues. Katrina, not everyone has

31:08

that relationship, that lifelong relationship with

31:10

pubs. There may be people listening

31:12

to this who have frankly not

31:14

stepped inside a boozer for years

31:17

or even at all. Isn't that

31:19

a good thing? I think one

31:21

of the issues here is that

31:23

there would be a lack of

31:25

real political will to try and

31:27

make a difference and turn around

31:30

the fortunes of pubs. So again,

31:32

looking from a Scottish perspective, the

31:34

latest figures that we have from

31:36

2023 recorded the highest number of

31:38

alcohol -specific deaths in Scotland since 2008.

31:40

And that is despite consistent pressure

31:42

from campaign groups through the Scottish

31:45

government to implement changes that are

31:47

going to reduce these numbers. And

31:49

they are some of the highest

31:51

figures in Europe. We're talking about

31:54

20 people a week dying from

31:56

alcohol -specific causes. And Scotland has

31:58

declared this a public health emergency.

32:00

There were heavy drinking patterns established

32:02

during the pandemic that haven't been

32:04

addressed. Issues have been raised, such

32:06

as minimum unit pricing to try

32:08

and tackle the most problematic drinking. Supporting

32:11

businesses is obviously important. They bring

32:13

vital revenue for the public purse.

32:15

They support local economies. They bring

32:18

jobs into areas. But they aren't

32:20

a social space for everybody. People

32:22

do find drink culture problematic. They

32:24

don't want to socialise in pubs.

32:26

We know that younger generations are

32:28

not that interested in drinking and

32:30

there's been a glut of dry

32:32

nightclubs. And these things have massive

32:34

knock -on effects in the sector.

32:36

And I think all the kind

32:38

of agonised conversations that we have

32:40

about drinking culture are not really

32:42

taking us any further forward. Elizabeth,

32:44

would it be possible, do you

32:46

think, to... some of those issues

32:48

with drinking itself head on by

32:50

just reimagining what the local pub

32:52

can be? You know, to keep

32:54

the same service, but in a

32:56

non -booze format, could cafes, which are

32:58

hugely in growth in the UK,

33:00

for example, not perform the same

33:02

role? Or is there something unique

33:04

and irreplaceable about pubs themselves, do

33:06

you think? coming from a family

33:09

who are so closely connected to

33:11

them i would say straight away

33:13

they are unique and special we

33:15

should protect them but a lot

33:17

of them are i mean you

33:19

know my nephew's pub you can

33:21

get coffee there and he saves

33:23

great coffee our cat has talked

33:25

about the the negative impact of

33:27

alcohol but we have to remember

33:29

that Pubs where you are less

33:31

likely to get served if you're

33:33

drunk than a supermarket, for example.

33:35

A pub licensee will not risk

33:37

losing his license because he's serving

33:39

somebody who deems to have drank

33:41

too much. Certainly not a community

33:43

one and a local one. They

33:45

are more likely to encourage responsible

33:47

drinking. You hear about pubs

33:49

where they have free soft drinks

33:52

for the person who's driving, for example.

33:54

It's a mistaken belief that pubs

33:56

are the reason why people drink. They

33:58

can see it much more than

34:00

just in an off -licence, where I

34:02

know in parts of England you can

34:04

buy a pint of Stella for

34:06

£1 .50. Yeah. And yet, Rebecca, I

34:09

can't help but feel that part of

34:11

what... is going on here is

34:13

the prevalence of big TVs and streaming

34:15

services, everyone learning to make their

34:17

own bread and coffee and beer and

34:19

wine subscriptions, bringing all our favourite

34:21

drinks to the home. Haven't we just

34:23

made being at home more fun

34:26

over the years? I think that definitely

34:28

is a part of the issue

34:30

that we're facing. But I think essentially

34:32

what the crux of this is,

34:34

is the fact that we don't value

34:36

pubs and their staff enough. Or

34:39

at least we don't value them

34:41

in perhaps the way that we should.

34:43

I think that clearly shows up

34:45

in the barriers to recruitment within the

34:47

pub industry. I think the inquiry

34:49

that Elizabeth is mentioning here is going

34:51

to examine those barriers. But I

34:53

think the answers really are right in

34:56

front of us other than kind

34:58

of home culture. We're looking at low

35:00

pay, unpredictable hours, limited protections

35:02

for staff and overall just a

35:04

general sense that hospitality work is sort

35:06

of less than. It's not a

35:08

career. it's just something that you fall

35:10

into or you do for a

35:12

short period of time and that is

35:14

not always the case i think

35:16

this is this kind of perception is

35:18

the reason why pubs struggle to

35:20

attract and retain staff but as we've

35:22

touched upon here pubs have such

35:24

a cultural value at the heart of

35:26

their communities and they function as

35:28

a social lifeline for a lot of

35:30

people so i think matching the

35:32

social value that we have for pubs

35:34

with the economic value that we

35:36

have for pubs is a important thing

35:38

that we need to address going

35:40

forward otherwise we're just going to continue

35:42

to run into the same recruitment

35:44

and retention issues you know it's not

35:46

just about filling the shift with

35:48

someone that can pull a decent pint

35:50

it's about changing the way that

35:52

we think about the pub as an

35:54

entity as well as pub culture

35:56

you know that going out culture sort

35:58

of thing rather than just staying

36:00

at home all the time i think

36:02

cost has a big big part

36:04

to play in that. Katrina, Rebecca said

36:06

there that maybe we don't value

36:08

pubs highly enough, but is there a

36:10

danger in romanticising pubs too much?

36:12

They are, after all, houses of sin

36:14

and vice, but maybe that's why

36:16

they are good. What kind of pubs

36:18

are you hanging out in? Sin

36:20

and vice? I

36:23

don't think there is a

36:25

danger of over -romanticising pubs.

36:27

I think nostalgia and attachment

36:29

to places is how we

36:31

protect those places. Cafe

36:34

culture is rising across the UK,

36:36

but cafes tend to cruise at

36:38

certain times of night, whereas pubs

36:40

are part of a community. They're

36:42

a centre that people can use.

36:44

And I don't see a problem

36:46

with that because I think the

36:48

nature of pubs is changing. are

36:51

a couple of pubs near me

36:53

that have games nights or who host

36:55

chess tournaments and here trying to

36:57

do different things to bring people in

36:59

for various reasons. And we've just

37:01

been talking about the effect that social

37:03

isolation can have on older people,

37:05

that it can have on cognitive function.

37:07

It is really important that we

37:09

have these public spaces. They don't necessarily

37:12

have to be based around alcohol,

37:14

but I don't think we have to

37:16

demonise alcohol either. I think

37:18

there has to be a way of getting

37:20

to a point where we can have

37:22

a sensible drinking culture that more reflects the

37:24

one on the continent rather than the

37:26

one that you and I are probably used

37:28

to in Australia or the American drinking

37:30

culture. There has to be a better way

37:32

forward. Yeah, Elizabeth, I'm sure

37:35

Katrina's right that we don't need to

37:37

demonise the drinking part of going

37:39

to the pub. But what is your

37:41

favourite non -alcohol related part of the

37:43

pub experience? The people.

37:46

I've just recently moved back to

37:48

Scotland and my local park. Can

37:50

I put a shout out for

37:52

it? Cobbies Inn in Tayport, please. One

37:55

of them said themselves the other day,

37:58

they are a family amongst themselves. It's a

38:00

small place. There's only 4 ,000 people live

38:02

here. And the pub is very

38:04

much a place where you can go

38:06

and meet people and find people. And even

38:08

after a few weeks, we're able to

38:10

walk down the street now and say hello

38:12

to people and chat to them, which

38:14

we wouldn't have. being able to without good

38:16

old cubbies. Rebecca? Yeah,

38:18

I would have to agree with Elizabeth.

38:20

I mean, when we were in journalism

38:22

college, we were always taught if you

38:25

want a story, go into a pub.

38:27

Like that's the best place to find

38:29

a good story is to go into

38:31

a pub and talk to people. It's

38:33

such a social experience that I think

38:35

it would be a shame to kind

38:37

of let that go. It is unique

38:39

in a way that, you know, bars

38:41

and cafes perhaps aren't. Maybe less so

38:43

in London. But I think particularly in

38:45

kind of local communities and rural communities,

38:47

pubs are, as I mentioned earlier, a

38:49

real social lifeline. And yeah, that's what's

38:51

unique about pubs, really. I think it's

38:53

a great thing that we should keep

38:55

within our culture. And Katrina? I mean,

38:57

it feels irresponsible to say it after

38:59

the conversation we've been having, but I

39:02

like drinking. I love having a cocktail.

39:04

I do. And I feel like I

39:06

should be ashamed. But my local pub,

39:08

there are two local pubs where I

39:10

live, in fact, and I know that

39:12

any night of the week, if I

39:14

am feeling a bit lonely or isolated

39:16

or if I've got nothing doing, I

39:18

can go along to one of those

39:20

pubs and there will be somebody there

39:22

that I know that I can socialise

39:24

with and have fun with. And I

39:26

think that's a really important thing, as

39:28

well as a decent Negroni. Yeah, very

39:31

important. I'm afraid I'm going to have

39:33

to call last orders on this episode.

39:35

My thanks to Rebecca, Elizabeth and Katrina.

39:37

And you can follow this show for

39:39

free and get every episode as soon

39:41

as it's released by searching for The

39:43

Week Unwrapped, wherever you get your podcasts

39:45

and then tapping follow. You can also

39:48

get six free issues of The Week

39:50

magazine with a trial subscription. Just go

39:52

to theweek.com slash subscriptions. And Ollie will

39:54

be back from his big American adventure

39:56

next week. No doubt he's drunk lots

39:58

of Negronis over. In meantime,

40:00

I've been Ariane McNichol, our music is

40:02

by Tom Morby, the producer Matt Hill

40:04

at Rethink Audio, And until we meet

40:06

again to unwrap week, bye -bye.