0:00

Canada Land, funded by you.

0:02

Hey, it's Katie. You might

0:05

recognize me from the worst

0:07

podcast. You know those hop-on,

0:09

hop-off tour buses that you

0:11

see in various major cities

0:14

around Canada? Well, when I

0:16

was in university, this was

0:18

my dream summer job. All I

0:20

wanted to do was be one

0:22

of these tour guides, Mike in

0:25

hand, telling people all the fun

0:27

facts about the city. To me,

0:29

this was like... the foot in the

0:31

door to the radio industry. Of course,

0:34

once a summer I applied, I

0:36

got an interview and ahead of

0:38

the interview, this tour company sent

0:40

me a whole document full of

0:42

fun facts about Toronto. I read the

0:44

fun facts, I memorized as many as

0:47

I could, and I was pretty

0:49

confident going into this interview that

0:51

I was going to get the job.

0:53

Well, I got to the interview

0:55

and it was basically a surprise

0:57

audition. I am not an actor.

1:00

I am merely someone who thinks

1:02

they're charismatic behind a microphone.

1:04

And in that interview they asked

1:06

me to recite those fun facts

1:08

word for word from the script.

1:10

It was a script. It was

1:13

a surprise audition. Needless to say,

1:15

I absolutely bombed the interview. I

1:17

was rejected from that job and that's

1:19

okay because it led me to where

1:22

I am now talking to you. So why

1:24

am I telling you about my

1:26

failures? Well, because this week we're

1:28

sharing an episode from a show

1:30

we really love and it's all

1:32

about rejection. It's called We Regret

1:35

to Inform You by our friends

1:37

at Apostrophe. From actors like

1:39

Jim Kerry to authors like Stephen

1:41

King or even the movie Elf,

1:44

behind every success is a road

1:46

full of rejection and I know

1:48

it so well. And hidden inside

1:50

each rejection is a unique insight.

1:53

We regret to inform you, tells

1:55

those stories, and breaks down how

1:57

celebrated people moved past those failures

1:59

and... goals. At my house we

2:01

have been binge watching The Sopranos.

2:03

I've actually never seen it before

2:06

until this year. And so I'm

2:08

deep in how good this show

2:10

truly is. And so this episode

2:12

that we're dropping on the feed

2:14

is all about how the Sopranos

2:17

was actually almost left on the

2:19

cutting room floor. Could you imagine

2:21

a world with no Tony,

2:23

Polly, or Carmella? Not to

2:25

mention Gabagoul? We hope

2:27

you like this episode

2:29

as much as we

2:32

do. You can listen

2:34

to all five

2:36

seasons of We Regret

2:39

to inform you

2:41

wherever you get your

2:44

podcast. This is an

2:46

apostrophe podcast

2:50

production. This

3:12

is we regret

3:14

to inform you,

3:17

the rejection podcast.

3:20

I was trying

3:23

to write movies

3:26

and trying to

3:28

write movies. I

3:31

wrote them, but

3:33

nothing happened with

3:36

them. David Chase He was

3:38

sent to visit his grandfather,

3:41

who lived on an apple

3:43

farm in Hudson, New York.

3:46

It was the summer holidays,

3:48

when New Jersey is hot

3:50

and sticky, the perfect time

3:53

for a rural respite. Chase's

3:55

grandfather was Roman, last name

3:58

Fusco, from the Italian meaning

4:00

dark features. The trip would

4:03

be just one week for

4:05

the only child, but one

4:07

night after dinner, the two

4:10

sat at the kitchen table

4:12

chatting. When his grandfather told

4:15

his grandson that one time,

4:17

he'd killed a man. Years

4:20

ago, in Buffalo, he'd gotten

4:22

into a bar fight with

4:25

a fellow Italian from a

4:27

different part of Rome. Soon

4:30

they took the brawl outside.

4:32

One thing led to another,

4:35

and Chase's grandfather grabbed a

4:37

stray brick and hit the

4:40

man square in the head

4:42

with it. Killing him. Twelve-year-old

4:45

Chase was stunned. 67

4:48

years later, he has

4:50

no idea if that

4:52

violent story is true,

4:55

or why his grandfather

4:57

chose to tell it

4:59

to his pre-teen grandson.

5:02

But one thing was

5:04

for sure. Grandpuff Fusco

5:06

was a bad apple.

5:09

His story featured a

5:11

dark family secret. Chase

5:13

would never forget. Chase's

5:18

upbringing was that of a

5:20

typical Italian Protestant family in

5:23

New Jersey. His original family

5:25

name was De Cesaray. When

5:28

his father's mother fled from

5:30

her husband, seven children in

5:33

tow, she changed it to

5:35

Chase, so he'd never find

5:38

them. Like most suburban saplings

5:40

of the 1950s, Chase's childhood

5:43

was pretty hands off. No

5:45

one blinked if he wandered

5:48

too far or broke a

5:50

window, so long as he

5:53

was home at the end

5:55

of the day for spaghetti

5:57

dinner with the extended family.

6:00

While Chase describes his childhood

6:02

as a one. There was

6:05

one figure in his life,

6:07

aside from Grandpa, who'd leave

6:10

an indelible mark, his mother

6:12

Norma. One of 11 children,

6:15

Norma Chase came of age

6:17

in the Great Depression, with

6:20

limited means and resulting unlimited

6:22

fears. He's described her in

6:25

many ways over the years,

6:27

but the word narcissist appears

6:29

often. Chase says she thought

6:32

of herself constantly and was

6:34

full of anxieties, obsessions, and

6:37

hatred. Qualities that, through a

6:39

modern-day lens, Chase would later

6:42

ascribe to mental illness. Norma

6:44

had big dreams for her

6:47

only son. She wanted him

6:49

to become something, quote, unassailably

6:52

respectable, like a teacher, a

6:54

lawyer, or a diplomat. But

6:57

should anyone veer too ambitious,

6:59

was also known for the

7:01

catchphrase, who do you think

7:04

you are? In the seventh

7:06

grade, Chase overheard his uncle

7:09

telling his female cousins that

7:11

Chase didn't have it in

7:14

him to ever become a

7:16

varsity athlete. He didn't really

7:19

want to become a varsity

7:21

athlete. But perhaps it's never

7:24

fun to hear someone else

7:26

cross the possibility off your

7:29

list. The truth was, his

7:31

interests required neither a ball

7:33

nor a diploma. He was

7:36

interested in the arts. TV

7:38

and movies were a big

7:41

deal in the Chase household.

7:43

He watched The Twilight Zone,

7:46

Laurel and Hardy. He loved

7:48

anything Abbott and Costello. And

7:51

every Saturday night after family

7:53

dinner, he and his cousins

7:56

would huddle around the box

7:58

to watch the Jackie Gleason.

8:01

show. Like every 60s teen

8:03

Chase wore out his Beatles

8:06

Bob Dylan and Stone's records.

8:08

He said it was the

8:10

time art was really starting

8:13

to happen and in grade

8:15

9 it was decided he

8:18

would become a musician. Chase

8:20

started drumming in a local

8:23

band. Then he also took

8:25

on lead vocals. Karen Carpenter

8:28

style. But they never landed

8:30

a real gig. Chase later

8:33

said it was like they

8:35

thought they were so cool,

8:38

they were saving themselves for

8:40

the right opportunity. Soon came

8:42

the inviting, then came the

8:45

band's demise. But hanging out

8:47

with those guys reinforced something

8:50

within David Chase. One of

8:52

them played incredible guitar. and

8:55

he was a painter. They

8:57

were a group of budding

9:00

artists, and he liked being

9:02

around artists. Chase enrolled at

9:05

Wake Forest College in North

9:07

Carolina. In his freshman year,

9:10

he took a creative writing

9:12

course. He'd written a story

9:14

once upon a time about

9:17

a cook and his daughter

9:19

at the summer camp he'd

9:22

once attended. But he didn't

9:24

know where the story should

9:27

go from there. So it

9:29

went in a drawer. In

9:32

college, the same thing happened.

9:34

He wrote one story, three

9:37

pages long, and it also

9:39

ended up in a drawer

9:42

somewhere. But Friday nights on

9:44

campus were foreign film nights,

9:47

and Chase never missed a

9:49

Friday. He saw breathless, cul-de-sac,

9:51

a gangster movie he couldn't

9:54

get out of his head.

9:56

and Felini films, which floored

9:59

him. It was like watching

10:01

his own family on... screen.

10:04

And he started to realize.

10:06

Movies didn't come off the

10:09

assembly line like Chevy's. Somewhere

10:11

behind a typewriter was a

10:14

person who created these stories,

10:16

these characters. And somewhere on

10:19

a set were actors bringing

10:21

those characters to life. And

10:23

when he walked out of

10:26

the theater on one such

10:28

Friday, it hit him. Like

10:31

an author's name on the

10:33

cover of a novel, maybe

10:36

one day he would see

10:38

his name on a movie

10:41

poster. In his sophomore year,

10:43

Chase left North Carolina and

10:46

transferred back home to NYU.

10:48

There he started dating the

10:51

woman who would become his

10:53

wife. And at the behest

10:55

of his aunts and uncles,

10:58

who feared Chase's narcissistic mother

11:00

would drive away any woman

11:03

he brought home, the newlyweds

11:05

hopped in their brand-new VW

11:08

beetle and drove across the

11:10

country to California. Chase loved

11:13

the idea of becoming an

11:15

actor, but decided he wasn't

11:18

good-looking enough. So he enrolled

11:20

at Stanford's graduate film program.

11:23

Maybe he'd become a director.

11:25

And there, with a friend,

11:27

Chase co-wrote a spec script.

11:30

His teacher thought it was

11:32

pretty good. So that teacher

11:35

sent that script to a

11:37

man named Roy Huggins. Huggins

11:40

had created several successful TV

11:42

shows, like Maverick, starring James

11:45

Garner, among others. But a

11:47

year passed, and they didn't

11:50

hear a thing. Chase's co-writer

11:52

gave up on the film

11:55

industry and moved to Chicago.

11:57

Chase gave up on directing.

12:00

But then, someone from

12:02

Universal Studios got

12:04

in contact with

12:06

Chase. Turns out, Huggins had

12:09

read the script, and he

12:11

liked it. So we offered Chase

12:13

the chance to write one

12:16

episode of his latest TV

12:18

series. It was a legal drama

12:20

called The Bold Ones, Colin,

12:23

The Lawyers. Chase really

12:25

wasn't interested in

12:27

television. If he was going

12:30

to go into the industry,

12:32

he wanted to work on

12:34

films. But it would be

12:36

bold of him to turn

12:38

down his first professional gig

12:40

out of college. So, he took it.

12:42

Following his stint with Huggins,

12:44

Chase was hired to write

12:46

a teleplay. It would take

12:49

him three months to finish

12:51

the 60-minute teleplay. It would

12:54

take him three months to

12:56

finish the 60-minute teleplay. No

12:59

one bugged him for it.

13:01

He figured they were giving

13:03

him all the time he

13:05

needed to make it

13:07

perfect. But that wasn't

13:09

exactly how it worked.

13:12

Three months was an

13:14

eternity in TV land.

13:16

Everyone at Universal

13:19

had moved on, and Chase

13:21

wasn't rehired. A month

13:23

passed with no work. Then

13:26

two. Then three. Fortunately,

13:28

Chase's wife's job at the

13:30

law firm kept the lights

13:33

on at their rental apartment

13:35

in Hollywood. But then a full

13:37

year went by. Chase

13:39

was pounding the pavement.

13:42

He approached Time Life

13:44

films, production houses, studios,

13:46

documentarians, even porn companies,

13:49

looking for anyone, anywhere,

13:51

who'd give him a

13:53

job. But they all rejected

13:55

him. And soon, three

13:57

years had passed. of

14:00

nothing. In 1973, the Writers

14:03

Guild of America went on

14:05

strike against movie and television

14:08

producers, and Chase found

14:10

himself on the picket line.

14:12

He was of two

14:14

minds about picketing that February.

14:17

On the one hand,

14:19

his brief stint writing for

14:21

television had landed him in

14:24

the Writers Guild. On

14:26

the other hand, the guild

14:28

had been of no

14:30

help landing him another job

14:33

over the next three years.

14:35

He said it was nothing

14:38

like, say, the plumbers' union,

14:40

which connected non-working plumbers with

14:43

non-working pipes. He'd been languishing

14:45

for one thousand days.

14:47

But as Chase begrudgingly marched,

14:50

he started chatting with

14:52

fellow picketers. And he met

14:54

a fellow named Paul Clayton.

14:57

Clayton had been a story

14:59

editor on Mission Impossible. Now,

15:02

or until the strike

15:04

began, he'd been put in

15:06

charge of the back

15:08

nine on a new television

15:11

series called The Magician,

15:13

starring Bill Bixby. Meaning, he'd

15:15

produced the nine episodes following

15:18

the mid-season break. He

15:20

and Chase got to talking.

15:22

Clayton's next job would

15:24

be producing a horror TV

15:27

show called Colshack the Nightstalker

15:29

about a news reporter with

15:32

a pension for solving supernatural

15:34

crimes rather than reporting on

15:37

them. Sixteen weeks later, the

15:39

strike ended. Winning salary

15:41

increases for writers over the

15:44

next three years and

15:46

guaranteed residual pay schedules. And

15:48

Chase found himself with a

15:51

winning new title. Staff writer

15:53

on the Night Stalker. The

15:56

Nightstalker would run for just

15:58

one year before it was

16:01

cancelled. But Paul Clayton

16:03

took chase along with him

16:05

to his next project.

16:07

A detective series called Switch

16:10

at Universal. Switch would last

16:12

a few seasons. But what

16:15

came next gave Chase something

16:17

he never, ever thought

16:19

he'd have in this business?

16:22

Job security. He was

16:24

offered a seven-year deal to

16:26

write for Universal. It

16:28

was a switch Chase never

16:31

saw coming. He was steadily

16:33

employed in his 20s

16:35

in the very industry that

16:38

had shut him out

16:40

for years. Soon Chase became

16:42

a writer on Roy Huggins'

16:45

latest series. Like Maverick, it

16:47

would star James Garner. As

16:50

an ex-con, who, after serving

16:52

years in prison for a

16:55

crime he didn't commit,

16:57

becomes a private investigator. A

16:59

private investigator with a

17:01

moral code. He won't kill

17:04

for money, and he won't

17:06

marry for money. But otherwise,

17:09

he was pretty wide open.

17:11

It would be called the

17:14

Rockford Files. There would be

17:16

many funny writing opportunities

17:18

on the Rockford Files. Jim

17:21

Rockford lived in a

17:23

mobile home off the Pacific

17:25

Coast Highway. He kept his

17:28

38 special in a cookie

17:30

jar. Every gig saved him

17:33

from the brink of

17:35

bankruptcy, though he almost never

17:37

collected payment in full.

17:39

In the glove box of

17:42

his gold Pontiac Firebird

17:44

Espree, he kept a mini

17:46

printing press on which to

17:49

print fake business cards.

17:51

And James Garner performed... many

17:53

of his own stunts.

17:55

The mantra in the writer's

17:58

room was, Jim Rockford could

18:00

be a jerk, but he

18:03

had to be the smartest

18:05

guy in the room. It

18:08

was long before Chase was

18:10

promoted to producer, and

18:12

in 1978, he won an

18:15

Emmy Award for Outstanding

18:17

Drama Series. The Rockford Files

18:19

would air for six seasons.

18:22

Until James Garner's knees couldn't

18:24

take it any longer. Doctors

18:27

advised the star to lay

18:30

off the stunts, and without

18:32

their Jim Rockford, NBC

18:34

pulled the plug on the

18:37

Rockford files. Right on

18:39

the heels of Rockford. Chase

18:41

landed a TV movie, for

18:44

which he'd win a second

18:46

Emmy, and a Writers Guild

18:49

award. By all accounts,

18:51

his career as a TV

18:53

writer was thriving. But

18:55

the truth was, he didn't

18:58

want to be in

19:00

TV. In fact, five years

19:02

in, Chase was dying to

19:05

get out of his

19:07

universal contract. His initial dream

19:09

had never faded. He

19:11

wanted to write films. but

19:14

the gap between TV writers

19:16

and movie writers had never

19:19

been wider. Chase said at

19:21

that time movies and television

19:24

were written in the same

19:26

town, on the same

19:28

lot, often in the same

19:31

high-rise building. Yet, they

19:33

may as well have been

19:35

worlds apart. Nobody from the

19:38

TV floor ever made it

19:40

up to the features floor.

19:43

You might get yourself

19:45

penciled in for a meeting.

19:47

But at the end

19:49

of the day, the network

19:52

saw you as one

19:54

thing. The filler between commercials.

20:01

One day, Chase attended a

20:03

film industry luncheon with colleagues.

20:06

The keynote spoke about the

20:08

future of the movie business,

20:10

and she concluded her talk

20:13

by saying, And if you're

20:15

in TV, you're the king

20:17

of a dung heap. Chase

20:19

could earn dozens of Emmy's,

20:22

but it wouldn't matter. He

20:24

was the bottom of the

20:26

Hollywood food chain. Soon

20:29

he started getting approach

20:32

to write pilots, and

20:34

with that came a

20:36

development deal. Basically, his

20:38

job was to sit

20:40

in an office with

20:42

a writing partner and

20:44

get paid to think

20:47

up ideas for pilots,

20:49

without having to actually

20:51

develop any of those

20:53

pilots. It was a

20:55

dream gig for a

20:57

TV writer, low stress

21:00

and lucrative. Over two

21:02

years, Chase put forward

21:04

four TV ideas. None

21:06

of them were picked

21:08

up. But those rejections

21:10

gave him an idea.

21:12

Instead of getting home

21:15

after work and finally

21:17

getting to work on

21:19

his own ideas in

21:21

his garage until 2am.

21:23

He could spend the

21:25

time designated for his

21:28

TV development deal working

21:30

on his own ideas.

21:32

No one would find

21:34

out. Well, someone did

21:36

find out. The head

21:38

of the TV department.

21:40

He realized, quote, these

21:43

two clowns weren't doing

21:45

anything. They were writing

21:47

movie scripts when they

21:49

should be coming up

21:51

with TV ideas. So

21:53

that executive assigned Chase

21:56

to a series. A

21:58

new show called Almost

22:00

Grown. Almost Grown would

22:02

tell the story of

22:04

a divorced couple by

22:06

traveling back in time

22:08

to explore different decades.

22:11

of their marriage. It

22:13

was a fun series

22:15

because music punctuated each

22:17

decade. The show got

22:19

the green light and

22:21

Chase directed the pilot.

22:24

This was a series

22:26

he was proud to

22:28

be a part of,

22:30

but it wasn't cheap

22:32

to produce. Not only

22:34

was it a period

22:36

show, it was a

22:39

multi-period show. The 60s

22:41

wigs, the 70s cars.

22:43

It would cost a

22:45

fortune for a brand

22:47

new show with zero

22:49

traction. And after just

22:52

13 episodes, Almost Grown

22:54

was completely cancelled. He

22:56

had two fundamental questions.

22:58

Why hadn't the movie

23:00

industry discovered him yet?

23:02

And why had his

23:04

mother been so incredibly

23:07

difficult all his life?

23:09

But first he'd tackle

23:11

question A. At this

23:13

point he'd been waiting

23:15

over a decade for

23:17

his big break in

23:19

film. Toiling away in

23:22

network television, unhappily. Chase

23:24

leader told IndieWire, network

23:26

executives had the unique

23:29

ability to sniff out

23:31

the most interesting parts

23:33

of scripts, and, like

23:35

peas that had been

23:37

boiled too long, turned

23:39

those scripts into mush,

23:41

removing all the vitamins.

23:43

He was tired of

23:45

episodic television. He wanted

23:47

to make movies that

23:49

made the audience sit

23:51

up and pay attention.

23:53

He thought about stepping

23:55

away from the medium

23:57

altogether to make a

23:59

real go at movies,

24:01

but that would mean

24:03

giving up steady income.

24:05

They had a young

24:07

daughter. TV money kept

24:09

the lights on. At

24:11

dinner parties, Chase would

24:13

tell stories about his

24:15

mother, and they would

24:18

always get the biggest

24:20

laughs. And one day,

24:22

his wife said, what

24:24

if you wrote about

24:26

Norma? Certainly not in

24:28

a way that was

24:30

commercial or interesting. Then

24:32

he had a thought.

24:34

What if he told

24:36

the story of a

24:38

gangster with enemies, one

24:40

of whom was his

24:42

mother? When he sends

24:44

her to a nursing

24:46

home, her resentment sends

24:48

him, a hardened criminal,

24:50

straight into therapy. That

24:52

was a much more

24:54

interesting angle to chase.

24:56

He saw it as

24:58

a film. Starring Robert

25:00

De Niro and Anne

25:02

Bancroft. So Chase told

25:04

his agent about the

25:07

idea. But that agent

25:09

told him, mob comedies

25:11

weren't happening. There had

25:13

been many attempts at

25:15

a TV version of

25:17

The Godfather already. So,

25:19

Chase shelved the idea.

25:34

and

25:39

we'll

25:45

be

25:47

right

25:50

back.

25:52

50

25:54

years

25:56

old.

25:59

He'd

26:01

pitched 11 or 12

26:03

screen plays to studios,

26:06

but zero were picked

26:08

up. The youth-obsessed industry

26:11

wasn't interested in middle-aged

26:13

ideas. He felt himself

26:16

letting his film dreams

26:18

go. Chase started working

26:20

with a new management

26:23

company. Then one day

26:25

after such failed pitch meeting.

26:27

His manager turned to him

26:29

in the elevator and said,

26:31

I want you to know we

26:34

believe that you have inside you

26:36

a great television series. Chase

26:38

was floored. He had no

26:41

interest in creating his own

26:43

television series. He was touched

26:46

by the confidence, but he'd

26:48

spent his entire career trying

26:51

to move away from the

26:53

small screen. Then

26:55

in the car on the

26:57

drive home he got to

26:59

thinking Chase remembered his discarded

27:02

movie pitch the one

27:04

about the mother Maybe

27:06

it could be autobiographical

27:09

in every sense about

27:11

a TV producer

27:13

from New Jersey

27:15

whose domineering comma

27:17

Frustrating mother sent

27:19

him careening onto

27:21

the therapist's therapist

27:23

therapist But then

27:25

he thought, that was way

27:28

too soft an idea. Some

27:30

yuppie in his horrible

27:32

mother, it had to

27:35

be the gangster angle.

27:37

A tough guy. A guy

27:39

whose everything Chase was not.

27:42

Then he thought, maybe that

27:44

idea could be a television

27:46

series. If it was a

27:49

television series, it would give

27:51

him more time to establish

27:53

the core pillars of the

27:56

show, the female characters, the

27:58

wife, the dog. the

28:00

therapist, the mother. Norma

28:03

Chase passed away in

28:05

1994 and David Chase

28:07

wondered, without his mother

28:10

around to ever read

28:12

it or criticize it,

28:15

could he sit down

28:17

and flesh out a

28:20

pilot? We'd

28:26

meet the protagonist, a 40-year-old

28:28

Mofioso, in the throes of

28:31

a midlife crisis. More inconvenienced

28:33

than curious about his onset

28:36

of panic attacks, he tries

28:38

to shake them off. But

28:41

fearing looking weak in front

28:43

of his crew and vulnerable

28:46

in front of his enemies,

28:48

he starts regular therapy to

28:51

put a stop to the

28:53

supposed anxiety. The problem was,

28:56

a mob boss couldn't exactly

28:58

talk freely about his life

29:01

stressors. His work in waste

29:03

management, his extramarital activities, his

29:05

Italian mother, who tried to

29:08

have him whacked for putting

29:10

her in a nursing home,

29:13

despite the fact she gave

29:15

her children her life on

29:18

a silver plata. It was

29:20

a lot, even for the

29:23

broadest of shoulders to bear.

29:26

But still, he doesn't

29:28

see why he must

29:30

whine and cry about

29:32

it. Whatever happened to

29:34

Gary Cooper, the strong,

29:36

silent type? The protagonist

29:38

would be a jerk.

29:40

But he was always

29:42

the smartest guy in

29:44

the room. Well, aside

29:46

from the four walls

29:48

of Dr. Melfi's office...

29:51

Dr. Jennifer Melfi, by

29:53

the way, would be

29:55

based on Chase's own

29:57

therapist. When Chase was

29:59

a kid, his His

30:01

father's business partner had

30:03

a son named Toby

30:05

Soprano who drove a

30:07

Cadillac. Chase's story was

30:09

supposed to be about

30:11

a father from Down

30:13

Neck Newark, so he

30:15

changed it slightly to

30:18

Tony Soprano who drove

30:20

a Cadillac. He'd called

30:22

the show, The Sopranos.

30:29

Chase took his pitch to

30:31

Fox. Fox had a string

30:34

of major hit television shows

30:36

in the late 80s, early

30:39

90s, including Ali McBeel, 21

30:41

Jump Street, and the X

30:43

Files. Fox was intrigued by

30:46

the Sopranos, and executives told

30:48

Chase to go ahead and

30:50

write the pilot script. But

30:53

when he brought the script

30:55

back to the network, Fox

30:57

rejected it. Chase said

31:00

looking back he wasn't

31:02

surprised. He said Fox

31:04

didn't trust its audience.

31:06

They were afraid of

31:08

an anti-hero in Tony

31:10

Soprano because how could

31:13

you like this guy?

31:15

Chase also realized viewers

31:17

tuning into a mob

31:19

show would expect a

31:21

few dark features. He'd

31:23

written the script to

31:25

be too palatable for

31:27

network tastes. His pilot

31:30

didn't have a single

31:32

beating or betrayal. So

31:34

Chase worked in a

31:36

few grizzly murders before

31:38

bringing it next to

31:40

ABC. But ABC rejected

31:42

the Sopranos. Next, Chase

31:44

took his show to

31:47

CBS. CBS liked the

31:49

violence, but they said,

31:51

Does Tony have to

31:53

go to a psychiatrist?

31:55

For Chase, the angle

31:57

about the mother and

31:59

the therapy was a

32:01

central to the storyline

32:03

as the crime. He

32:06

refused to remove it

32:08

and CBS rejected the

32:10

Sopranos. So Chase took

32:12

his pilot to NBC,

32:14

but NBC rejected the

32:16

Sopranos. And Chase said,

32:18

that was it. They'd

32:20

exhausted the only markets

32:23

in town. Two whole

32:25

years had passed. Then

32:27

his management got an idea to

32:30

send the script to one more

32:32

place HBO or Home Box Office,

32:34

launched in the 70s as a

32:37

way to put movies on the

32:39

small screen and provide exclusive pay-per-view

32:41

sports. It was the first pay

32:43

channel and the first to be

32:46

carried via satellite. It was a

32:48

success. But soon other networks followed

32:50

suit. Showtime, the movie channel, and

32:53

suddenly HBO needed a new way

32:55

to stand out in the crowd.

32:57

So in the 80s the cable

33:00

network started pivoting toward original programming

33:02

made for cable films and TV

33:04

shows with blockbuster budgets Thanks to

33:07

its subscription model HBO didn't answer

33:09

to advertisers and in 1997 the

33:11

network produced its first home-grown one-hour

33:13

drama called Oz Oz followed the

33:16

lives of inmates in an experimental

33:18

ward, a prison within a prison.

33:20

Next came Sex in the City,

33:23

which followed the unfiltered sex lives

33:25

of four-thirty and forty-something women living

33:27

in Manhattan. And it wasn't long

33:30

before HBO became a... hub for

33:32

TV shows that made audiences sit

33:34

up and pay attention. Sex in

33:37

the city alone would bring home

33:39

seven Emmys and eight Golden Globes.

33:41

Chase pitched the Sopranos to HBO.

33:43

But just then, Fox offered him

33:46

the executive producer role on a

33:48

new TV show. If he took

33:50

the Fox gig, He'd be walking

33:53

away from the Sopranos. He'd be

33:55

abandoning Tony and going back to

33:57

a life of working on other

34:00

people's ideas. There was one hour

34:02

left. One hour before he was

34:04

set to sign the deal with

34:07

Fox. He waited for HBO's response.

34:09

Nothing. Nothing. The Sopranos got the

34:11

green light. Not only that, HBO

34:13

would let David Chase direct the

34:16

pilot. A fact he was thrilled

34:18

about. He said it would be

34:20

the closest he'd get to being

34:23

a filmmaker. Chase was okayed to

34:25

shoot 13 episodes, an entire first

34:27

season. He knew exactly how he

34:30

wanted to make this series. If

34:32

it couldn't be a movie, he'd

34:34

make a television show that read

34:37

like 13 little movies. Stephen Van

34:39

Zant was Chase's first choice for

34:41

the role of Tony. He'd seen

34:43

the East Street band guitarist speak

34:46

at the Rock and Roll Hall

34:48

of Fame. He was magnetic. And

34:50

that night, Chase turned to his

34:53

wife and his wife and his

34:55

wife and his wife and his

34:57

wife and his wife and his

35:00

wife and his wife and his

35:02

wife and his wife and his

35:04

wife and his wife and his

35:07

wife and his wife and his

35:09

wife and his wife and his

35:11

wife and his wife and wife

35:13

and his wife and his wife

35:16

and his wife and his wife

35:18

and his wife and his wife

35:20

and his wife and his wife

35:23

and his wife and his wife

35:25

and his wife and his wife

35:27

and his wife and his wife

35:30

and wife and his wife and

35:32

wife and wife and his wife

35:34

and wife and his wife and

35:37

wife and wife and wife and

35:39

wife and his wife and wife

35:41

and wife and wife and his

35:44

wife and wife and wife and

35:46

wife and wife and his wife

35:48

and wife and wife and his

35:50

wife and wife and wife and

35:53

wife and Van Zandt has to

35:55

be on the show. Having never

35:57

acted before, Van Zand auditioned for

36:00

Tony, but he said to Chase,

36:02

you should find an experienced actor

36:04

instead. Chase told Van Zant he'd

36:07

find a smaller role for him

36:09

down the line. When Van Zant

36:11

felt guilty about taking that part

36:14

away from a real actor, Chase

36:16

wrote him in another small part

36:18

that didn't exist yet. Ray Leota

36:20

turned down the part of

36:23

Tony Soprano to focus on

36:25

his movie career. Anthony

36:27

LaPalia was considered but also

36:29

turned down the role to

36:31

appear in a Broadway play.

36:34

Then Enwalked an actor

36:36

named James Gandalfini. Gandalfini

36:39

had just played a

36:41

small part in the

36:43

star-studded Tarantino mob film

36:45

True Romance. So they

36:48

invited him to audition.

36:50

But Gandalfini's audition that

36:52

day was horrible. He

36:54

was so unhappy with

36:57

his performance, he stopped

36:59

midline and stormed out.

37:01

He was a big

37:03

guy, whose stature could

37:06

flip-flop between intimidating mob

37:08

boss and overstuffed Teddy

37:11

Bear on a dime.

37:13

Chase said he had

37:16

range, but most importantly,

37:18

he had the sadness. And

37:21

with that, Chase had his

37:23

Tony. Lorraine

37:29

Brocko auditioned for the

37:31

role of Carmella Soprano,

37:34

Tony's wife, and Chase

37:36

loved her. But she

37:38

turned it down. She just

37:40

played a mob wife in

37:43

Goodfellas. But she loved the

37:45

script. So she asked Chase

37:47

if she could play the

37:50

role of the therapist, Dr.

37:52

Melfi, instead. Chase agreed and

37:54

gave Brocko the part. So

37:57

HBO recommended ED Falco for

37:59

Carmel. After her stint

38:01

on Oz, and Chase

38:03

knew instantly she was

38:06

the right choice. Michael

38:08

Imperiali would play Tony's

38:10

nephew and protégé Christopher.

38:12

Dominic Chenese would play

38:15

Junior Soprano. Then they

38:17

were only two days

38:19

away from shooting, and

38:22

they still hadn't cast

38:24

Tony's mother, Livia Soprano.

38:26

Chase auditioned 200 actresses.

38:28

But nothing felt right.

38:31

The whole series hinged

38:33

on this character. Then

38:35

In walked Nancy Marchand.

38:37

And Chase said, Oh

38:40

my God, that's my

38:42

mother. They began shooting

38:44

in Queens. Chase said,

38:46

no one kept an

38:49

eye on them. They

38:51

were kind of free

38:53

to do whatever they

38:55

wanted. 12 months after

38:58

shooting the pilot. They

39:00

shot the next 12

39:02

episodes. And Edie Falco

39:04

said, what happens now?

39:07

Chase told her the

39:09

truth was, probably nothing.

39:11

They had their fun.

39:13

Countless times in his

39:16

career they'd shot a

39:18

pilot, a season, and

39:20

it all came crashing

39:22

down. He figured the

39:25

show would premiere and

39:27

everyone would say, another

39:29

mob show? That horse

39:32

is dead. Put the

39:34

stick down. The chances

39:36

were unbelievably low they'd

39:38

get a second season.

39:41

But on January 10th,

39:43

1999, the series eponymous

39:45

pilot premiered on the

39:47

home box office. But

39:50

the reviews coming in

39:52

were so... The Hollywood

39:54

reporter said, quote, David

39:56

Chase rises to the

39:59

challenge with incredibly absorbing

40:01

scripts and the help

40:03

of a remarkable cast.

40:05

Newsday called it the

40:08

best new series of

40:10

the year. The LA

40:12

Time said, Hands Down,

40:14

the Sopranos was the

40:17

series of the season.

40:19

Audiences started to grow.

40:21

fast, eventually reaching an

40:23

average viewership of 12

40:26

million per week. The

40:28

Sopranos revolutionized the one-hour

40:30

drama, by weaving family,

40:32

mental health, moral ambiguity,

40:35

and gritty adult subject

40:37

matter like sex and

40:39

violence into one sharp,

40:41

funny, character-driven narrative, making

40:44

it the ultimate water

40:46

cooler show. The budgets

40:48

per episode jumped to

40:51

between two and six

40:53

million, setting a new

40:55

precedent for higher spending

40:57

on prestige TV dramas.

41:00

In total, the series

41:02

would air six seasons

41:04

to the tune of

41:06

21 Emmys, 111 Emmy

41:09

nominations, three for James

41:11

Gandalfini, three for Eddie

41:13

Falco, and bringing David

41:15

Chase's grand total up

41:18

to seven. with 23

41:20

nominations. Many credit the

41:22

Sopranos with the birth

41:24

of what's become known

41:27

as the second Golden

41:29

Age of Television. Television

41:31

writers were no longer

41:33

the kings of a

41:36

dung heap. They were

41:38

the emperors of a

41:40

new realm, ushering in

41:42

a Hollywood renaissance. One

41:45

where TV scripts attract

41:47

the best actors, and

41:49

the best actors attract

41:51

audiences that rival those

41:54

of me. Hollywood films.

41:56

After years of floundering

41:58

in a medium he

42:01

felt in his bones

42:03

he wasn't right for,

42:05

wishing he was somewhere

42:07

across the lot on

42:10

a movie set. After

42:12

facing rejections for 12

42:14

of his screenplay ideas,

42:16

getting stuck in development

42:19

deals for shows that

42:21

never lasted past a

42:23

single season, and having

42:25

the four major television

42:28

networks reject his original

42:30

script idea and nearly

42:32

shelving it all together,

42:34

David Chase served the

42:37

world 86 little movies

42:39

on a silver plata.

42:41

The New York Times

42:43

called it the greatest

42:46

work of American pop

42:48

culture in the last

42:50

quarter century. The Guardian

42:52

called it the greatest

42:55

TV show of the

42:57

21st century. And TV

42:59

guide, Rolling Stone, and

43:01

the Writers Guild of

43:04

America, rated The Sopranos,

43:06

the best television series

43:08

of all time. Even

43:26

Chase's story is a fascinating study

43:29

and why it's so hard to

43:31

listen to the universe when it's

43:33

trying to tell you something. So

43:36

often, many of us have very

43:38

specific dreams and the universe won't

43:40

let us get there. You pull

43:43

and pull in that direction and

43:45

the universe keeps yanking you back

43:47

and you think, what the hell

43:49

is going on? Well, here's what

43:52

the hell is going on. The

43:54

universe is hip checking you to

43:56

keep you on the other path.

44:00

David Chase dreamed of

44:02

writing movies, but every

44:04

time he pushed hard

44:06

in that direction, the

44:08

universe hauled him back

44:10

to television. He yearned

44:12

to get out of

44:14

TV. He desperately wanted

44:16

to leave television. But

44:18

the universe had other

44:20

plans for him. Because

44:22

at the end of

44:24

the day, David Chase

44:27

was meant to be

44:29

in television. He was

44:31

meant to create the

44:33

sopranos. He was meant

44:35

to kick-start. the second

44:37

golden age of television.

44:39

That's why every rejection

44:41

he faced was necessary.

44:43

Every time he put

44:45

the script back in

44:47

the drawer, it came

44:49

out a little better.

44:51

The rejections let the

44:53

story marinate in his

44:56

mind. They let him

44:58

gather the required wisdom

45:00

and experience and hindsight.

45:02

If the TV networks

45:04

had picked up the

45:06

Sopranos early on, it

45:08

would have been watered

45:10

down, pecked to death,

45:12

and forgettable. But there

45:14

was a better home

45:16

for the sopranos on

45:18

the horizon. And that's

45:20

why the universe ran

45:23

interference for so long.

45:25

It had to wait

45:27

for HBO. So what

45:29

is the universe telling

45:31

you right now that

45:33

you're ignoring? It's hard

45:35

to go left when

45:37

your dreams want to

45:39

go right. But maybe...

45:41

Just maybe, Destiny has

45:43

a magnificent spot reserved

45:45

for you. All you

45:47

have to do is

45:50

listen. Never, ever give

45:52

up. 62 Tony Sopranos

45:54

estimated net worth 6

45:56

million number of F

45:58

bombs across the series

46:00

episodes directed by David

46:02

Chase to the first

46:04

and the last price

46:06

of syndication deal in

46:08

2005 200 million The

46:28

Rejection Podcast is an apostrophe

46:30

podcast production and is recorded

46:33

in our air stream mobile

46:35

recording studio. This series is

46:38

hosted and written by me,

46:40

Sydney O'Reilly, Research, Allison Pinches,

46:43

Director, Callie O'Reilly, Engineer, Jeff

46:45

Devine, producer, Debbie O'Reilly. Theme

46:47

music is by Ian Lefever and

46:49

Ari Posner. Toons are provided

46:51

by 8 p.m. music, and we

46:54

don't regret to inform you, we're

46:56

proudly powered by A-cast. Significant

46:59

sources for this episode are

47:01

listed in the show notes

47:04

on our website, apostrophe podcasts.ca/rejection.

47:06

If you liked this one,

47:08

you might also like our

47:11

special two-part episode rejecting madmen

47:13

from season four. The creator of

47:15

Madman Matthew Weiner was a

47:18

writer on The Sopranos before

47:20

making the leap to create

47:23

his own series. And according

47:25

to Rolling Stone, Madman is

47:28

the fourth greatest television show

47:30

of all time, bested only

47:33

by Breaking Mad, The Wire,

47:35

and The Sopranos. But Weiner

47:38

was also rejected by every

47:40

major network, including HBO, FX,

47:43

and Showtime. You can follow

47:45

us on social at

47:47

A Poster Fee-Pod. This

47:49

series is executive produced

47:52

by Terry O'Reilly. See you

47:54

next time.