0:01

Your dream getaway? Welcome in! Starts

0:03

at the airport. With Amex Platinum,

0:05

you get access to the Centurion Lounge

0:08

where you can find space to. Send

0:10

off that last work email. Fill up

0:12

on premium dining. And finally, relax for

0:15

up to three hours before takeoff. You

0:17

might even wish your layover could last

0:19

just a little longer. Flight to Mexico,

0:22

now boarding. Oh, that's me. That's the

0:24

powerful backing of American Express.

0:26

Terms apply. For more

0:28

information, visit American Express.

0:31

I would define reclaiming as

0:33

to take back what was

0:35

yours, something you possess is

0:37

lost or stolen, and ultimately

0:39

you triumph in finding it

0:41

again. Listen to reclaiming with

0:43

Monica Lewinsky wherever you get

0:45

your podcasts. I have a very hard

0:48

time being judgmental about coaches

0:50

because you're not in the room.

0:52

And I can guarantee you every

0:55

NBA coach as things they'd like to

0:57

do and say I

0:59

can't do that. because

1:02

we're not capable or

1:04

player X

1:06

can't do it

1:09

or player X

1:11

won't do it

1:14

right so the

1:16

media's So,

1:31

We're in Scottsdale, Arizona. We're

1:33

in Scottsdale, Arizona. Start with

1:35

the song. Yeah, start with the

1:37

song. Okay. Start with the song.

1:40

What are we thinking? Good morning,

1:42

everyone. We got a good one

1:44

today. We got Tommy Altar, per

1:46

usual. And the great Steve Nash.

1:49

Gonna be exciting conversation. Had a

1:51

great dinner yesterday, covered a lot

1:53

of topics. So looking forward to

1:56

get- Where are we right now?

1:58

We're in Scottsdale, Arizona. You have

2:00

a new house in Scottsdale, Arizona. Not

2:02

from the house that is nowhere close

2:05

to being completed, but we're here. Not

2:07

to put you on blast, but so

2:09

nice and new that there's still tags

2:12

on the pillows. Well, because we don't,

2:14

we're not sure if those pillows are

2:16

gonna stick. Smart man, smart man. Until

2:19

everything is set, anything can go, anything

2:21

can get cut. How does this, what

2:23

year is this for you, a million?

2:26

Yeah. I just finished six. Year's Six,

2:28

I was in like a townhouse in

2:30

Dallas. Great. I liked it. But definitely,

2:32

definitely not palatial. Like this. Yeah. Palatial.

2:35

I also feel like, we were talking

2:37

about this, I was talking about this

2:39

last night, and you may have like

2:41

talked about this publicly before. I never

2:43

knew about the skateboarding thing in York.

2:45

I feel like yours, your stand, your

2:47

level of happiness, you're not a person

2:49

who needs a lot of bells and

2:52

whistles. Can we can you just give

2:54

a second and go over the skateboarding

2:56

thing that we're referring to here? Yeah,

2:58

I mean, people probably knew, but there's

3:00

time has passed, but, you know, when

3:02

I played for the Sons, I would

3:04

live in New York City in the

3:06

summer, played on a couple soccer teams,

3:08

and like my daily shooting routine, you

3:11

know, a shooter's got a shoot where

3:13

you always have to shoot every day

3:15

or else you're like, like, I don't

3:17

know if you're the same way, but

3:19

I'm like anxious if I haven't having,

3:21

I haven't having, I haven't, to Battery

3:23

Park at like seven in the morning,

3:25

like make 150 shots, hitting my own

3:28

rebounds, take me like 30 minutes, then

3:30

all the commuters would be getting off

3:32

the ferry from Jersey City, and I'd

3:34

be like, all right, time to go,

3:36

then I'd go back, take my kids

3:38

to camp, whatever, and then I would

3:40

skate up to Chelsea piers up the

3:42

west of the west of the highway,

3:45

which was like a mile and a

3:47

mile and a half, two miles, and

3:49

go hope up there, lift, and then

3:51

escape back home. What is sometimes sometimes

3:53

take my board on the subway It's

3:55

just what's what's really funny imagining this

3:57

us being in New York now and

3:59

you being just, you know, recently removed

4:01

from New York is everybody with phones,

4:04

everybody with that, everyone is now kind

4:06

of on the lookout for things like

4:08

this. So it doesn't mean that you're

4:10

gonna get, you know, mobbed everywhere you

4:12

go, but it feels like one of

4:14

those things, if you were doing that

4:16

in 2024, 2025, it would, it would

4:18

get written about or. Yeah, there would

4:21

be videos that go viral. No, that

4:23

mean it's just a different world, right?

4:25

Like you can't do anything nowadays without

4:27

it being documented. that you guys live

4:29

in a slightly different environment than we

4:31

did in a number of ways mostly

4:33

because of the internet technology like it's

4:35

just different we we got I guess

4:37

I don't know I feel like late

4:40

odds was like social media like as

4:42

far as like when Twitter came around

4:44

Facebook was starting to become a thing

4:46

started on college campuses like then obviously

4:48

it's exploded but we I didn't have

4:50

to deal with that or camera phones

4:52

like for the vast majority of my

4:54

career so I mean You guys live

4:57

in a complete and unfortunately, or unfortunately,

4:59

but fortunately for you guys, you grew

5:01

up with that too. So like, you

5:03

kind of get it, not saying it's

5:05

good bad or it's just, it's different

5:07

and you have to deal with a

5:09

lot more variables because of it. Yeah.

5:11

And I mean, we could have a

5:13

whole hour on how technology and social

5:16

media and camera phones has changed the

5:18

way an athlete has to operate. I've

5:20

heard a lot of stories. How is

5:22

it affected you? I mean, it's what,

5:24

it's all I've known, right? It's all

5:26

I've known in my time playing, but

5:28

it's like, you always have to be

5:30

aware of your surroundings, probably to an

5:33

extra extent, because it could be people

5:35

that you're not interacting with that are

5:37

recording or doing whatever, or you know,

5:39

it's just like, anywhere you go, anything

5:41

you do, can be a spectacle. But

5:43

like we talked about last night, it's

5:45

also, you know, sometimes it's pretty easy,

5:47

depending on where... a lot of people

5:50

have a lot of things going on

5:52

and there's a lot of everybody like

5:54

we can move around and not really

5:56

worry. Like you can roll solo and

5:58

not really worry too much about too

6:00

many things. So it's kind of like

6:02

a double-edged sword. But also like you

6:04

can slip in and out and do

6:06

all that stuff but you have to

6:09

be always have some level of awareness.

6:11

Exactly. We really didn't. Like you might

6:13

be aware of like I'm going into

6:15

a crowd here that might be pretty

6:17

basketball centric or you know when you're

6:19

like... get trying to get somewhere and

6:21

you kind of notice people or like

6:23

you might be clocking you a little

6:26

bit and you're like I don't know

6:28

if I have time for this and

6:30

that kind of awareness but you guys

6:32

have to be aware at all times

6:34

like someone could be filming recording from

6:36

afar from anywhere yeah that never leaves

6:38

absolutely that's crazy yeah and it could

6:40

be it could it could not come

6:42

out right away but but you know

6:45

too it's always it's kind of scary

6:47

when you think about it right it's

6:49

like everything is always watched I had

6:51

a, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're taping

6:53

this Wednesday morning, we're gonna, you know,

6:55

talk about a bunch of the playoff

6:57

series, but I had sort of a

6:59

question about social media in the current

7:02

league now in terms of instant reaction

7:04

and how you feel basically, because I'm

7:06

kind of curious your perspective with like

7:08

social media versus the media when you

7:10

were in playoff series and you would

7:12

have, you have bad, you guys would

7:14

get blown out or something like that.

7:16

And you get criticism, I mean, that's

7:18

part of the job. But it does

7:21

feel like, I mean, we watched the

7:23

Lakers, Minnesota game last night, it felt

7:25

like after game one, it was like

7:27

everyone's bearing Lakers, everyone's bearing the Knicks

7:29

right now. It feels like there's a,

7:31

there's a thing where after every loss,

7:33

it is. And so I'm curious if

7:35

you guys think it's different, or this

7:38

is just how it's always been, and

7:40

just kind of put your head down

7:42

and ignore everything, because it's all noise.

7:44

I mean, you're in a different era,

7:46

but I feel like I crossed over

7:48

just a little bit. It wasn't quite

7:50

as, you know, ubiquitous when I played,

7:52

like, the social stuff, but at the

7:55

end, it was there. The media became,

7:57

I think, early in my career became...

7:59

win or nothing. Like if you don't

8:01

win your trash, right? It came this

8:03

kind of, like if you don't win

8:05

a championship or bus type scenario. So

8:07

there was always kind of that pressure

8:09

there, that reaction, obviously it came more

8:11

like in the newspaper, on sports center,

8:14

than like online newspapers and then social

8:16

media. But I just, I always took

8:18

the tact of like, I'm not paying

8:20

attention to the, especially if we didn't

8:22

play well, have a good game. Why

8:24

would I? Take on that negative energy

8:26

when I'm trying to focus and have

8:28

another game now I do think there's

8:31

value and people being aware of what

8:33

their personality is like some people probably

8:35

get fuel from the negative stuff Some

8:37

people like it's just for me. It

8:39

was just like waste of like emotion

8:41

I did not need to give to

8:43

that I wanted to save that emotion

8:45

from my prep my Performance my recovery.

8:47

Yeah, I mean I don't think it's

8:50

a a horrible thing. I think instant

8:52

reactions are like those gut emotional reactions

8:54

that a lot of people are going

8:56

to be quick to consume. So it's

8:58

like you watch New York versus Detroit

9:00

the other day and then you get

9:02

all these instant reactions and that's when

9:04

people are like wanting to see these

9:07

instant reactions. So I think it increases

9:09

the volume of media and the consumption

9:11

of the game, which I think is

9:13

a positive. We want that. I think

9:15

from a player's perspective, it's like just

9:17

ignore it for the most part. And

9:19

if you're a guy that finds fuel

9:21

from it, like you said, then by

9:23

all means, like look at what you

9:26

want to look at. But for the

9:28

most part, like, you just kind of

9:30

have to compartmentalize and be like, this

9:32

event is going to occur. There's going

9:34

to be media and it's going to

9:36

swing high and it's going to swing

9:38

low, but like your job is to

9:40

say very centered in those moments and

9:43

like kind of remain, like, what's the

9:45

real here? What actually went on in

9:47

the game? What actually went on the

9:49

game? Like, like, like, like, like, like,

9:51

who cares, who cares, what actually went

9:53

on the game, like, like, like, like,

9:55

like, who cares, who cares, what actually

9:57

went on the game, like, Let's go

10:00

over this. Let's evaluate that performance in

10:02

our own right and then be clear-headed

10:04

in that way. Great point. I mean,

10:06

you know, we talk about this a

10:08

lot, but like the playoffs never too

10:10

high, never too low. Like you went

10:12

like the overreaction, there's also shreds of

10:14

truth in from an emotional standpoint and

10:16

a team. And if you haven't played

10:19

a lot of playoff games, you're a

10:21

young player, you haven't maybe learned those

10:23

lessons or had a few scars, you

10:25

can ride this emotional roller coaster, which

10:27

doesn't help you, right? It's also like

10:29

human nature. You play well and you

10:31

feel like you're never going to lose.

10:33

What's the most emotional playoff series you've

10:36

been a part of? That's a great

10:38

question. I'm so old now, I forgot

10:40

them all, but, you know, you know,

10:42

That was, you know, tough because we

10:44

were behind the eight ball. Roger Bell

10:46

got suspended when he closed on Kobe.

10:48

So we went to LA, I want

10:50

to say for game six, down three

10:52

two without Raja, the starter, you know,

10:55

and also primary defender on Kobe. And

10:57

we got the win, came back for

10:59

game seven and one. That took a

11:01

toll. Also, when I played in Dallas,

11:03

we went up three oh on the

11:05

Blazers. went to game seven. Almost the

11:07

first team ever to lose with a

11:09

three-oh lead. Kind of like just lost

11:12

focus, took our foot off the gas,

11:14

they adjusted, played better, they went home

11:16

and won in the seventh game. Those

11:18

are emotional. But then I think also

11:20

just playing the Spurs, you know, just

11:22

such a great team. Timmy was just

11:24

like such a rock for them. They

11:26

didn't beat themselves, pop an amazing coach.

11:28

Obviously, you know, Manu and Tony and

11:31

Tony and other incredible role players. Those

11:33

were emotionally draining series because you, you

11:35

know, like, they're not going to beat

11:37

themselves. So you have to, like, match

11:39

them at all moments or you're going

11:41

to lose, you know, like that kind

11:43

of mental emotional, you know, ability to

11:45

stay with it every possession, quarter, quarter,

11:48

game, after game, home, and away. Like,

11:50

they made you, like, push your focus

11:52

to the limit or else they're going

11:54

to find separation. Yeah. And there's like

11:56

a stamina to that I feel. Like

11:59

we're in again the human element is

12:01

always so fascinating to me because like

12:03

no matter how physically tough you are

12:05

like there's a resilience component to this

12:08

that shows itself in so many ways

12:10

like you you want we want toughness

12:12

we want physicality but the real toughness

12:14

is mental toughness yeah right like to

12:17

be able to stick with the game

12:19

plan the script the ebbs and flows

12:21

of the game the adjustments the read

12:23

and reacting the being greedy and big

12:25

moments like you know, being efficient, cutting

12:28

all the extra fat in a performance,

12:30

so to speak, like there's no time

12:32

for that against the league teams. You

12:34

can't like feel high and mighty and

12:36

things are going to come easy now

12:39

that we're on a roll. Things flip

12:41

quickly and then you needed that baggage

12:43

that you, you know, you left on

12:45

the table. So I think that's a

12:47

really important part about the playoffs is

12:50

like the mental toughness resilience to continue

12:52

to push, to not... feel too high

12:54

to not get too down to just

12:56

be steady steady steady in the moment

12:59

competing at all times and I mean

13:01

it's kind of obvious to say but

13:03

like in practicality that is a huge

13:05

challenge I'm sure you've seen it in

13:07

your finals run like you you recognize

13:10

how close moments can be to flipping

13:12

a game and then therefore series yeah

13:14

exactly like in that final series you

13:16

know you're up 2-0 and when you

13:18

get removed from it's like you guys

13:21

just lost 4 in a row Right,

13:23

like we did, we lost four games

13:25

in a row. But when you go

13:27

and watch those games over again and

13:30

you see how just critical moments, how

13:32

close to games with the whole game,

13:34

how much those last two minutes mattered,

13:36

it's like, you're all, like being right

13:38

there in the playoffs is not good

13:41

enough. It's just not, like, it takes

13:43

an extra bump and in that series,

13:45

you had Chris Middleton, you had Janus,

13:47

you had Drew, they... provided the extra

13:49

bump four times in a row, which

13:52

is incredibly impressive. Like I watched those

13:54

games over again and you're just like,

13:56

you know, they, they work for that.

13:58

It was not given to them, they

14:00

work for that, but that's what I

14:03

love. about the playoffs overall is that

14:05

your goal is to beat the same

14:07

team four times in a row and

14:09

both teams are 150% focus on each

14:12

other. And when you start to like

14:14

see that chess match that's getting played

14:16

and then you have these immediate emotional

14:18

reactions. to a game one, to a

14:20

game two, but how many series have

14:23

flipped after three? How many series have

14:25

been three, one, flip, and just the

14:27

momentum of it all, two oes that

14:29

have been flipped? We see it time

14:31

and time again, and it's like, you

14:34

can't win the series in one game.

14:36

You can't win the series in one

14:38

homestand, you know? It's like the series

14:40

doesn't start until somebody wins on a

14:42

road. And it's just, in my experience,

14:45

and it's limited, obviously. That is what

14:47

makes like being an NBA player like

14:49

that's peak of like basketball just that's

14:51

where you want to be. I thought

14:54

the I thought and the most recent

14:56

mind the game the quote you had

14:58

was on the playoffs once you've died

15:00

a thousand deaths what's one more? It's

15:02

a really interesting way to just kind

15:05

of think about your mental about you

15:07

you preparing for the reality of what

15:09

you know these series where you are

15:11

going to lose. You're going to have

15:13

downs. Yeah, I mean I think it's

15:16

you look at the whole picture right

15:18

the playoffs the immediacy like we talked

15:20

about like the highs and lows the

15:22

the pressure the noise All the chatter

15:24

back and forth like also if series

15:27

are competitive It's gonna get personal, you

15:29

know, there's a lot going to get

15:31

personal, you know, there's a lot going

15:33

on right in the playoffs. There's you

15:36

know, like there's obviously you see who

15:38

blinks first and makes an adjustment but

15:40

before the adjustments a lot of things

15:42

like we were chatting they played their

15:44

game plan better last night. You know,

15:47

the first game, they're obviously gonna, they

15:49

don't have any, you know, their roster

15:51

and profile isn't like a lot of

15:53

quick foot of defenders. They're like a

15:55

football team. They're big, they're physical, they

15:58

get back, back. pain, get in the

16:00

gaps, take away, because they're not going

16:02

to, no, I mean, nobody can, but

16:04

they're not going to be able to

16:07

individually keep and in front or keep

16:09

shame front. So they're in the gaps

16:11

and then they got to flound. She

16:13

was game one, they didn't get out.

16:15

Game two, you know, there was a

16:18

diligence. It felt like watching obviously the

16:20

limited kind of fashion we did. So

16:22

there's like, like, before the adjustment, there's

16:24

kind of. That wave, it's a lot

16:26

going on, right? The inside, outside noise,

16:29

the mono, the team versus team, the...

16:31

So for me, I think I kind

16:33

of bastardize this or stole it right

16:35

out of art of war, but essentially

16:37

there's two outcomes, like there's live or

16:40

die, right? There's win or lose. Once

16:42

you've lost a thousand deaths, like why

16:44

are we worried about winning or losing?

16:46

Like, put all that away and go

16:49

for it. You know what I mean?

16:51

Go for the win, don't... head your

16:53

bet and something I wish I knew

16:55

a little better not that I was

16:57

afraid or didn't show up but like

17:00

just get some of the stress the

17:02

anxiety off your table and be like

17:04

I'm trying to win this game and

17:06

I don't care what happens so there's

17:08

I don't know if that makes sense

17:11

but kind of like if you've already

17:13

died a thousand deaths absolutely I love

17:15

that I love that so you have

17:17

like the unique experience of being the

17:19

head point guard of the actual team

17:22

on the court and then the head

17:24

coach in these playoff series and It's

17:26

like, at what point do you stick

17:28

to your game plan? At what point

17:31

does that flip to like we need

17:33

to make an adjustment? And I know

17:35

hindsight is always 2020 in these things,

17:37

but like there's, there is a responsibility

17:39

from a player's perspective to like kind

17:42

of either reinforce that game plan on

17:44

the court or really effectively. Play out

17:46

those adjustments, and then the coach has

17:48

the same responsibility. So in your experience

17:50

like how is that played out? So

17:53

I think in both as a player

17:55

and a coach like you know as

17:57

people know this we've talked about this

17:59

I'm sure nausea but teams that make

18:01

the finals are high IQ teams you

18:04

generally they're often able to make adjustments

18:06

some like teams are just able to

18:08

read and react like you think of

18:10

Nick nurse's raptors like defensively like it

18:13

was chaotic you know they're in the

18:15

gaps flying running people off the line

18:17

but they were so good at reading

18:19

he flew by, ran him off the

18:21

line, the next guy came, they packed

18:24

a pen again, got back in the

18:26

picture with a second effort, like I'm

18:28

almost not sure all of it was

18:30

scripted, right? But they were high IQ,

18:32

they could read and react, they had

18:35

toughness, mental resolve, that stuff. Other teams

18:37

don't have that profile. They're not a

18:39

high IQ team, so you're limited in

18:41

what adjustments you can make, especially against

18:44

top playoff teams. So I think part

18:46

of it is the profile of the

18:48

group. I'd be very interested to see

18:50

how many adjustments the Lakers can make,

18:52

not because of the IQs out there.

18:55

They are, I think, a high IQ

18:57

team. But their profiles are all pretty

18:59

similar. There's a bunch of kind of

19:01

power forward type dudes out there that

19:03

maybe aren't the quickest, the quickest, the

19:06

quickest, the quickest, the quickest, the quickest,

19:08

but they can be physical, they can

19:10

make it hard to get in the

19:12

middle. So I think sometimes you have

19:14

to look at the profile of the

19:17

group. Like what adjustments don't work. But

19:19

just because you make an adjustment doesn't

19:21

mean it works, right? So I think

19:23

there's a, there's, there's a, let's be

19:26

ourselves, let's be ourselves better, and then

19:28

there's sometimes a blank. Okay, we got

19:30

a change. And what is my team

19:32

capable of changing? Sometimes that's between games,

19:34

but sometimes that's in-game, right? And some

19:37

of that's how you've prepared throughout the

19:39

year. What's your team capable of doing?

19:41

What have you had success with? Some

19:43

of that comes down to the profile

19:45

of the profile of the profile of

19:48

the profile of the profile of the

19:50

profile of the profile of the team.

19:52

ability to be versatile essentially, physically versatile,

19:54

guard multiple positions, change schemes, and also,

19:56

you know, mentally versatile to be able

19:59

to say like, I understand if we're

20:01

changing defenses this, my feet need to

20:03

be. Not here, there's a big difference

20:05

in six, eight, 10 inches sometimes where

20:08

you rotate, right, where your feet are,

20:10

like how you close out, how you

20:12

low man, can you see both, like

20:14

all these factors in how to make

20:16

adjustments. So as a player and a

20:19

coach, there's this kind of dichotomy or

20:21

this, let's say, pendulum between like, we

20:23

have to be really good at what

20:25

we do. And how many adjustments is

20:27

our team capable of making effectively? And

20:30

what happens when they don't work? And

20:32

then the last thing I'll say about

20:34

it is kind of, you know, at

20:36

the end of a lot of series,

20:38

we have a game or two, we

20:41

try to play our game plan better,

20:43

someone blinks, an adjustment could work, the

20:45

other team adjusts back, all the adjustments

20:47

in bait, and then it becomes a

20:50

dog fight. Who wants it more? Who's

20:52

more physical? Who's not going to take

20:54

plays off? Who's able to stay focused?

20:56

Who's able to be efficient? You know,

20:58

all those things, it comes back to

21:01

almost like now we're just playing in

21:03

the park, right? Winter stays on. Do

21:05

you know what I mean? Like after

21:07

the adjustments, the blinks, get to our

21:09

game. Let's get back to who we

21:12

are. And now it's just a dog.

21:14

what adjustment to make and to what

21:16

degree you make it to, which I

21:18

found in series like, if I remember

21:21

correctly there might have been some criticism

21:23

around adjustments that our son's team and

21:25

maybe even the one after I had

21:27

got traded had made in the playoffs,

21:29

like I was like reactions from the

21:32

media, where I'm sitting there and I'm

21:34

and like the takes that the media

21:36

takes to me are like. You weren't

21:38

in the lockroom, like you don't know

21:40

what adjustments we made, you don't know

21:43

what adjustments we made, you don't know

21:45

what adjustments are, you don't know how

21:47

well we try to execute them. It's

21:49

like, there's such a spectrum of what

21:51

you can change, how you can execute

21:54

it, that like, to me... It's a

21:56

lot of fun as a player, but

21:58

I think it gets the media kind

22:00

of twisted up in knots a lot.

22:03

It's a great point. I think I

22:05

have a very hard time being judgmental

22:07

about coaches because you're not in the

22:09

room. You're not in the room. And

22:11

I can guarantee you every NBA coach

22:14

as things they'd like to do and

22:16

say, I can't do that because we're

22:18

not capable or Player X can't do

22:20

it. Right? So the media is like,

22:22

why don't they blitz? They've thought about

22:25

that. Trust me. Trust me. Every and

22:27

every scenario. There's been 20 hours a

22:29

day thinking about this. I promise you.

22:31

And when they're not doing something, there's

22:33

usually 99% of the time a really

22:36

good reason that they have more experience

22:38

and understanding about than a view from

22:40

the outside. So like, that is a

22:42

key component here and that goes back

22:45

to profile of teams and versatility and

22:47

functionality. But like a lot of times,

22:49

you know, the adjustment game is fun.

22:51

It's great. And it's nice that the

22:53

media wants to get involved and weigh

22:56

in and even fans. The reality is

22:58

if you're not in that room, you

23:00

really don't know what the process has

23:02

been and what the possibilities are. Some

23:04

people get a wild haircut or book

23:07

a spontaneous trip when life throws them

23:09

a curveball. But Molly? Well, she dove

23:11

headfirst into a world of no-strings-attached sex,

23:13

secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs, and unforgettable adventures.

23:15

And together, we tell every juicy detail

23:18

and dying for sex. Wondery's award-winning podcast

23:20

that's now streaming on a TV near

23:22

you, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate.

23:24

And to top it off, we're dropping

23:27

brand new bonus episodes where I sit

23:29

down with the cast to spill all

23:31

the spicy secrets. Desire, friendship, self-discovery, and

23:33

the ultimate bucket list of pleasure. This

23:35

is a story that had everyone talking.

23:38

Listen to the original Dying for Sex

23:40

and brand new episodes on the wondering...

23:42

up or wherever you get your podcasts.

23:44

You can binge the original series before

23:46

anyone else and completely ad free on

23:49

Wonder Plus. What if your mind could

23:51

trick your body into feeling sick or

23:53

even worse? In hysterical I investigate the

23:55

bizarre medical mystery that unfolds in a

23:58

high school in upstate New York. It

24:00

starts with one girl developing strange violent

24:02

symptoms and then another. Rumors begin to

24:04

swirl. Is it something in the water?

24:06

Inside the school? Or is it all

24:09

in their heads? Hysterical is my search

24:11

for answers. And along the way, I

24:13

uncover surprising connections to unexplained incidents around

24:15

the world. Events that challenge everything we

24:17

think we know about our bodies and

24:20

our minds. Named Podcast of the Year

24:22

at the Gambies, Hysterical is a mind-bending,

24:24

unforgettable ride. Binge all episodes right now,

24:26

exclusively and ad-free on Wonderie Plus. Start

24:28

your free trial of Wondery Plus in

24:31

the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

24:33

You don't, absolutely. The question I was

24:35

going to ask from your, from the

24:37

Phoenix experience, but then relevant to the

24:40

Lakers series right now, is in terms

24:42

of adjustments, when it comes to an

24:44

opponent like Luca, so with like, the

24:46

Finch is dealing with right now, where

24:48

you guys had a deal with, where

24:51

it's like, there's always so much you

24:53

can say and do and strategize and

24:55

plan, is he still Luca. And to

24:57

that point, I had a series in

24:59

Brooklyn against Embed, that's a very similar

25:02

type of situation, is like, there's so

25:04

much you can do, and we went

25:06

full tilt into hitting the entire game,

25:08

trapping him the entire game. But the

25:10

result is, is like, Maxie's T and

25:13

off 12 wide open three's a game.

25:15

So it's like. the adjustment there becomes

25:17

and what scenarios do we blitz? Are

25:19

we blitzing at the top of the

25:22

key? Are we getting him on the

25:24

elbows only when he breaks the three

25:26

point line? And so yeah, that, that.

25:28

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what

25:30

makes Luke. with Lukas, LeBron, different than

25:33

almost anyone has their processing skills combined

25:35

with their physicality. So at the end

25:37

of the day, all the schemes you

25:39

can do and they can bully ball

25:41

you and see over you if you

25:44

bring a crowd. So like that's the

25:46

thing. So with Luka, similar to LeBron

25:48

is prime and still in moments now,

25:50

obviously he's, he's, Lukas, the focal point

25:52

of their offense now and LeBron's been

25:55

brilliant playing off him. But those guys

25:57

are difference makers because they can pick

25:59

you apart, they can spray the ball

26:01

over the gym, and when push comes

26:04

to shove, they can say, I'm quicker

26:06

than the big dudes, or I can

26:08

bully anyone. You know, and so you

26:10

got centers, even yolkage, you don't think

26:12

of him as quick, but he's a

26:15

43% three-point shooter, so centers flying at

26:17

him, he makes a quick close-out attack.

26:19

You're not really staying in front of

26:21

him. If you do, you're leaning, you

26:23

know. Bumping you spinning one more dribble

26:26

bumping you as you're trying to recover.

26:28

He's on the rim and oh you

26:30

came a little bit early I'm just

26:32

waiting for you you coming. Oh, you're

26:35

not I'll be on front of the

26:37

rim. Oh you are? Try ball. So

26:39

like that's where those guys are different

26:41

separators and that they break schemes they

26:43

create full rotations and there's lots of

26:46

great players in this league that are

26:48

gonna get 30 but not always gonna

26:50

cause a full rotation you can kind

26:52

of play in between you can rotate

26:54

if someone gets Straightline drive, but if

26:57

a guy can handle him for two

26:59

or three dribbles, but he's still going

27:01

to get to the front of the

27:03

room You damned if you do damned

27:05

if you don't that's what their greatness

27:08

is based on in my eyes Yeah,

27:10

and that shows up extra in the

27:12

playoffs, and that's when it's at its

27:14

most valuable Which is why those guys

27:17

are as valuable as they are when?

27:19

This was probably predating Brooklyn as an

27:21

observer just what exactly the rest of

27:23

the league was dealing with. I don't

27:25

necessarily have a timeline, but I remember

27:28

like when he was kind of emerging

27:30

as like maybe he's better than nurkage,

27:32

there was that conversation. It was. Like,

27:34

that was the first time you're like,

27:36

I didn't watch a lot of them.

27:39

I'm like, oh, wow, like, NERC is

27:41

a super skilled, big, young player in

27:43

the league, you're thinking, first round pick,

27:45

you're thinking, this guy's got a great

27:47

future. And all of a sudden, the

27:50

second round pick is like, and all

27:52

of a sudden, the second round pick

27:54

is like, like, you know, like, you've

27:56

got his body and a lot in

27:59

a lot of inner shape, but even

28:01

at that stage, like, like, like, like,

28:03

like, like, like, like, like, you can

28:05

start to see, like, like, like, like,

28:07

like, like, like, like, you can start,

28:10

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

28:12

like, he's playing 3D chess here, like

28:14

he, it's so easy for him to

28:16

like just make simple basketball plays that

28:18

bus defenses, right? And then obviously he

28:21

just kept getting better and better and

28:23

better to the point now where, I

28:25

mean, where's this going? Like, like, this

28:27

is going to the top of the

28:29

top, the upper echelon of historic basketball

28:32

players in my eyes. Yeah, like he

28:34

just had the... singular most impressive statline

28:36

NBA history. Yeah, it was. You freaked

28:38

out. So we were together, I think

28:41

the day afterwards. So would you say,

28:43

the 61? Yeah, you were like, it

28:45

takes me two weeks. Did you get

28:47

two weeks? Did you do it? I

28:49

mean, it was your 26th. They're like,

28:52

right. I'm trying my best out there.

28:54

But he's close to that almost every

28:56

now. What did he average triple double

28:58

double this year? Super high efficiency, like

29:00

40 plus percent. You know, like so

29:03

when your team is in, like Jamal

29:05

Murray doesn't play a lot, guys are

29:07

in out of the lineup, they maybe

29:09

didn't have the depth they had their

29:12

championship year, you can load up on

29:14

him a lot more. He's still, was

29:16

crazy efficient and dominant, like that to

29:18

me is, if this guy does this

29:20

for another five years, like we're talking

29:23

like he's, like on Mount Rushmore. This

29:25

is about, my question, we're talking about

29:27

the adjustments, is like, like, when you

29:29

look at, that's a great series, that's

29:31

probably going to be the, most competitive

29:34

best series I feel like in the

29:36

first round at least based on the

29:38

first two games and the Lakers mini

29:40

and like Lakers mini too but with

29:42

that particular very I feel like different

29:45

series though very different with with the

29:47

Jamal like everybody knows what's coming. And

29:49

you look at the, clippers have Kauai,

29:51

they have Chris Dunn, they have Derek

29:54

Jones, they have these, they have three

29:56

or four guys who are, you know,

29:58

three of the four best defensive players

30:00

in the NBA, and they still, they're

30:02

making every adjustment, they have a great

30:05

coach, Tyler, what, what are you supposed

30:07

to do with that two man? Yeah.

30:09

In my quick opinion, like not the

30:11

probably the most thought out opinion is.

30:13

They play, they're extra effective when they

30:16

have, when they have that pace, that

30:18

creates that space, that they, because they're

30:20

really really good at the reeds. Murray

30:22

can take the back door cut, he

30:24

can come off and shoot, he can

30:27

hit the pocket, you can do basically

30:29

anything. So the key is to wear

30:31

them, especially Murray, like done, get into

30:33

them. physical fight through every handoff, blow

30:36

up as much as you can, keep

30:38

everything up the floor, make him have

30:40

to fight that all game and just

30:42

wear them down, I think is probably

30:44

the most effective thing to do. It's

30:47

just that slow down that like it

30:49

just make it a make it has

30:51

to be a top effort to get

30:53

to get into those actions every time.

30:55

Yeah, pick him up full cord, make

30:58

yolkage, bring it up, get to his

31:00

spot and Jamal's trying to cut off,

31:02

like all that stuff, trying to wear

31:04

him down. If you give him something

31:06

easy. If you give him something easy.

31:09

and they get momentum cats out of

31:11

the bag you gotta make you gotta

31:13

be on the front foot defensively because

31:15

they're gonna create like little micro advantages

31:18

that's why it is so effective like

31:20

you can blow a play up you

31:22

can't blow that all of them up

31:24

right so like they're gonna find these

31:26

little micro advantages where they're gonna execute

31:29

and make plays so you gotta try

31:31

to slim at the amount of times

31:33

you can take that off the table

31:35

or push him out or make Jamal

31:37

like give up getting the ball and

31:40

Maggie will catch up the court a

31:42

million times get to a spot back

31:44

down almost to his elbow start playing

31:46

pitch and catch whatever they do that

31:49

is it sounds like rudimentary but like

31:51

again it to my point like after

31:53

that's what makes great players great one

31:55

great combo is great but like after

31:57

adjustment here there and now it's just

32:00

like who's gonna play the hardest the

32:02

smartest read each other be the most

32:04

effective and part of that is can

32:06

we wear them down and make them

32:08

from an a plus to an a

32:11

minus right and that might be the

32:13

difference what are the you mentioned Lakers

32:15

Minnesota as another one you feel like

32:17

could go seven what are the micro

32:19

advantages in that another side that you

32:22

feel like Well, I mean, you look

32:24

at it, like, the Lakers have to

32:26

be so disciplined to keep hand off

32:28

the rim and what he does when

32:31

he gets inside. Like, obviously, he's going

32:33

to, he's impossible to stop when he

32:35

gets on the rim. Plus, now, like...

32:37

If you're not so tight and trying

32:39

to make it as hard as possible

32:42

to get in the rim, and he's

32:44

getting in those little cracks, then he's

32:46

spraying the ball too, he's got the

32:48

best of both worlds. So they're disciplined

32:50

getting back, stopping transition opportunities, making them

32:53

be static, making them kind of look

32:55

like they're playing against the zone, but

32:57

then they're flying out of shooters. That's

32:59

kind of, you know, where we start

33:01

in that series for me. And then,

33:04

conversely, very similar, very similar, Luca be

33:06

in the head of the snake, like,

33:08

you know, you got decisions to make,

33:10

how much support are we giving? You

33:13

know, if we're gonna let him go

33:15

for 45, but he had to make

33:17

three, four dribbles every time to get

33:19

to the front of the rim or

33:21

take a step back, versus we're getting

33:24

it out of his hands, and then

33:26

the other guys, you know, are getting

33:28

wide open shots like they saw in

33:30

game one a little bit. So I

33:32

think that's where it starts for these

33:35

two teams for these two teams for

33:37

these two teams for these two teams,

33:39

but like, but like, but like, but

33:41

like, turnovers, it's offensive rebounds, it's defensive

33:43

transition, it's all these little areas and

33:46

how much can you win those little

33:48

battles is going to help, like if

33:50

you don't quite win the big battle,

33:52

right? Like that's, so there's an equality

33:55

here in a sense of, there's like

33:57

how teams exploit each other, you know,

33:59

I always say, you know, it's about

34:01

how can we create space and exploit

34:03

it and how can we constrict space,

34:06

you know, and that's the game of

34:08

basketball in the playoffs that becomes. even

34:10

more heightened. So that's where you start

34:12

is what are we doing to our

34:14

two lead creators here? But on the

34:17

flip side of that is always, like

34:19

I said, defensive transition, boxing out, not

34:21

giving up offensive rebounds, second possessions, like

34:23

turnovers, all those things add up and

34:26

are really important in a seven game

34:28

series. And it seems like the Lakers

34:30

did that yesterday. I didn't watch game

34:32

one as closely as I should have,

34:34

and we were in and out of

34:37

game two yesterday, but from a birds

34:39

I view, it seems like. that increase

34:41

in physicality, but doing it effectively really

34:43

slowed Minnesota down and what you see

34:45

is a lot worse of a shooting

34:48

day from them, less clean looks, and

34:50

then a lot more general frustration, it

34:52

seems like you go from scoring almost

34:54

120 to mid 80s, like very good

34:56

execution on the Lakers behalf there, and

34:59

the result is like exactly how the

35:01

game plan was structured, you can tell.

35:03

What do you see with the Thunder

35:05

when you watch them? Excellence. You know,

35:08

they, they, you know, I got a

35:10

saying to CAM last night, leadership, hierarchy,

35:12

buy-in. You know, they have, they know

35:14

who their leader is, it's Shea. They,

35:16

the rest of the team has a

35:19

hierarchy of knowing their roles, but they

35:21

also have the freedom to be themselves.

35:23

It's not like they are gunshot shy

35:25

or, you know, they don't play hard

35:27

because they're not the number one, two,

35:30

two, three option. They have multiple athlete

35:32

defenders. They have two bigs that can

35:34

make place. One can play the four

35:36

or five in chat. He can stretch

35:38

the floor, he can protect the rim,

35:41

he can shrink the floor with his

35:43

length, you know, Harnstein can pass, he's

35:45

got the floor, or he's great activity,

35:47

a little more physical. So their functionality,

35:50

versatility, are off the charts. You know,

35:52

there's so many guys that are like.

35:54

You know hardworking diligent discipline defenders, you

35:56

know, I mean, I know obviously Dortis

35:58

is an unbelievable role player who makes

36:01

threes is happy with his role gets

36:03

up into people's physical, but there's a

36:05

a lot of guys lining up after

36:07

him to take on the best assignment.

36:09

You know, I mean, think about the

36:12

ceiling for Jaylon Williams is in my

36:14

super high. Like he might be that,

36:16

might be a, I take a step

36:18

this playoffs, but like in the next

36:20

four or five years, the way he

36:23

can keep going because of the two-way

36:25

playmaking scoring crater he can be. I

36:27

mean, it's going to be fun to

36:29

see how that goes. But also, they're

36:32

well coached and with the hierarchy and

36:34

buy-in, they move it, they make quick

36:36

decisions. Shea, they create space for Shea.

36:38

Shea creates space for them, but puts

36:40

you in a lot of difficult, difficult

36:43

positions. Obviously, no Santa Clara bias there

36:45

is just a great team, honestly. what

36:47

they've been able to accomplish so far

36:49

in the regular season, but not only

36:51

that rolling to play as Memphis is

36:54

not a team to be taken lightly.

36:56

They were out just not too long

36:58

ago, two seed in the West, they

37:00

have the talent, they have defensive pieces,

37:03

offensive pieces, guys that can shoot the

37:05

ball, guys that can just flat out

37:07

make plays, and OKC is just giving

37:09

them such a hard time. I wanted

37:11

to ask about their culture in particular

37:14

because you sort of hinted at this

37:16

a little bit, and it is a

37:18

thing where they... They seem to fully

37:20

embrace the guys of Case and Wallace,

37:22

guys like Russ, so the guys off

37:25

the bench, they seem to fully embrace

37:27

the next man up mentality where people

37:29

don't sort of acknowledge even this year,

37:31

they weren't healthy the entire season. They

37:33

finished 68 wins, they finished the second

37:36

best net rating of all time, chat

37:38

missed what, 45 games. They didn't play

37:40

those two bigs together basically until the

37:42

end of the season because of all

37:45

of this, and it basically seemed like

37:47

beside Shea and dubbed to a certain

37:49

extent. they were just mixing and matching

37:51

the whole time but their culture was

37:53

so strong they had that ability is

37:56

is that a thing that you feel

37:58

like is it organizational thing is it

38:00

is it a is it a shade

38:02

thing like where does it come from

38:04

all above, you know, having a leader

38:07

that empowers his teammates, that is like

38:09

a good teammate, a good dude wants

38:11

to see them do well, shares in

38:13

their success, but also takes on the

38:15

responsibility. That's a key component. But, you

38:18

know, the culture, like what is culture?

38:20

Culture is like, it's a system of

38:22

behaviors. It's how we behave. To me,

38:24

like, you can have the best culture

38:27

ever on paper. It's who do you

38:29

bring in your building. And they recruit

38:31

and scout, high, you know, hard working,

38:33

collaborative. players, right? That's why they went

38:35

out and got Caruso. That's why they

38:38

draft the case on Wallace, you know,

38:40

Wiggins, like these type of players. They

38:42

understand these guys are, I've worked for

38:44

everything they got, they will continue to

38:46

work, they're happy to fit into a

38:49

system, but they still have the competitive

38:51

fire. So that's organizational. It's not like,

38:53

hey man, we created this great culture,

38:55

no. They filled the room with people

38:57

that want to fight together, were willing

39:00

to play with the team, play as

39:02

a team, to sacrifice for each other,

39:04

to compete, and then it builds itself,

39:06

right? Like it's not, it's not the,

39:09

it's not the word, it's not the

39:11

thought exercise on the wall, it's not

39:13

the, you know, the messages around the

39:15

gym, it's who do you bring into

39:17

your building. That's what a culture is,

39:20

more than anything, 100. background with him,

39:22

obviously he's from Toronto, so you've known

39:24

him since Hamilton. You've known him since

39:26

he was in high school, but just

39:28

watching how his, how he has turned

39:31

himself from, you know, a lottery pick,

39:33

but not necessarily somebody that people are

39:35

going to think is going to be

39:37

a superstar into what I think we

39:40

both think you should be the MVP

39:42

this year. with how he plays in

39:44

particular. What have you seen with just

39:46

his control and his pacing? I mean,

39:48

he's an absolute master of his craft,

39:51

and that comes from hard work. That

39:53

comes from really intentional purposeful work. And

39:55

so I don't, I haven't seen Shea

39:57

work since summer. We had him going

39:59

before he went to Kentucky with the

40:02

national team, which at which time I

40:04

knew he was. to be a pro,

40:06

I did not know this. You only

40:08

get there if you are incredibly thoughtful,

40:10

dedicated, and intentional about everything you do

40:13

every day. So one, a big admiration

40:15

for him, not just how he's gotten

40:17

there, but how he handles himself, frankly.

40:19

I mean guys, I think a complete

40:22

class act, a guy that the league

40:24

should be putting everywhere. and the Thunder,

40:26

they should be everywhere. Like I know

40:28

it's not a big market, but put

40:30

the Lakers, put the Knicks, and OTC

40:33

at every chance we get. Like this

40:35

is exactly what we want a basketball

40:37

team to look like, okay? One. But

40:39

Shea, getting back to Shea, he's a

40:41

master of his craft. He's changed to

40:44

becoming a more balanced, smoother, quicker, three

40:46

point shooter. He's always been herky jerky,

40:48

quick, but not the most explosive, but

40:50

a phenomenal athlete. Quick. Change

40:52

of pace, change of direction, shifty, skilled,

40:54

incredible length. So I think people don't

40:57

recognize how long this guy is, whether

40:59

that's at the rim or in the

41:01

mid range. He also is a master

41:03

of physicality. Okay, so like his ability

41:05

to use his body to create a

41:07

little bit of separation is textbook. Okay,

41:09

like that to me is. a huge

41:11

separator and that he finds the body

41:14

and he wins that battle and it's

41:16

not about strength it's about timing rhythm

41:18

angles angles I got this angle on

41:20

him so now he goes from being

41:22

the strongest man on the court to

41:24

the fifth strongest man because I got

41:26

him leaning now the bump now he

41:28

can't recover and whether it's a spin

41:31

step use that length I mean he

41:33

is a master of footwork change of

41:35

pace change of direction physicality then he

41:37

can use the incredible efficient I think

41:39

this year something around 58, 60% on

41:41

like 16 mid-range jump shots a game,

41:43

like we're talking Jordan Plus, like, I

41:45

mean, like it's historic, historic type player,

41:47

I might have butchered those numbers, but

41:50

a lead, lead, elite, elite, historically. And

41:52

he's the leader or thereabouts for... successful

41:54

drives in the league. So, you know,

41:56

he's worked so hard at his game.

41:58

He has an incredible mentality, confidence poised

42:00

that runs through his team. And you

42:02

can see it. You can see the

42:04

way they're connected. And so, man, I

42:07

admire the guy, an incredible amount for

42:09

where he's taking his game and what

42:11

he's done. And I just think he's

42:13

someone that we should all like celebrate

42:15

and marvel at as what he's been

42:17

able to do with. Katie was a

42:19

four-star star recruit. Got traded after a

42:21

successful rookie year. Exactly got traded right

42:24

like the emotional standpoint there how he

42:26

responded to that So I mean, I'll

42:28

let you I'd love to hear your

42:30

guys opinion on him, but this guy's

42:32

out of this world. Yeah, definitely You

42:34

can see the strategies taken every year

42:36

and the physicality is twofold. So one

42:38

he has the chicken wing he has

42:41

the bumps. He has that down pat

42:43

but as a defender you can't just

42:45

You can't use full physicality on him

42:47

because just as well as he can

42:49

feel and deliver he can feel the

42:51

physicality and then draw a foul so

42:53

as when you're trying to when you're

42:55

trying to body up when you're trying

42:57

to prevent him from doing things you

43:00

you bump a little too hard and

43:02

boom he's at the line which some

43:04

people call foul baiting and some people

43:06

might say it's unethical hoops but I

43:08

mean it's If anybody was as good

43:10

as him at doing it, you do

43:12

it. Like it's a skill more than

43:14

anything. I don't want to jump in

43:17

or up, but I love how you

43:19

explain that because if you go back

43:21

and watch the clips, there are some

43:23

that are in the middle ground. First

43:25

of all, that's not his fault. Like

43:27

the grifting stuff, like he's playing the

43:29

game the way it's played. I think

43:31

what happens is we have too many

43:34

guys that are either looking for fouls

43:36

or don't look enough for fouls. He

43:38

rides the line. a mate like like

43:40

like a hardened you know they this

43:42

is a skill like it's an there's

43:44

a genius to how they're able to

43:46

like you said like think about that

43:48

you know you gotta be physical because

43:51

if he gets the first bump when

43:53

you're you know, lifting a foot, he's

43:55

gonna win that battle. So then you're

43:57

being physical, he feels that. Like there's

43:59

such a cerebral sense and feel for

44:01

playing against your man that is just

44:03

like, I don't, you know, I'm over

44:05

here just like saying how great this

44:07

game, man, it's such a leverage game

44:10

and guarding him, you know, you get

44:12

too close and then like. he wants

44:14

to find your body but even if

44:16

he doesn't like he has wiggle on

44:18

top of it so it's it's very

44:20

pick your poison with him and a

44:22

lot of guys are pretty skilled in

44:24

the NBA a lot of guys are

44:27

very skilled like with a lot of

44:29

professional scores but he where he's I

44:31

think where he has continued and continued

44:33

and continue to get better one he's

44:35

a shot maker So all this goes

44:37

out the window if he can't make

44:39

that mity, if his three ball has

44:41

never improved, if he can't finish around

44:44

the room, he can make shots from

44:46

any point on the floor, which is

44:48

part of the really impressive thing, but

44:50

the decision making in those situations, which

44:52

probably goes back to work, which probably

44:54

goes back to like, here's a guy

44:56

that has drilled these scenarios, the feel

44:58

of the game over and over and

45:01

over, and has just been able to

45:03

like. pretty seamlessly incorporated into his game

45:05

to the point where like it's always

45:07

just building building building learning learning learning.

45:09

It's almost like a four level score

45:11

right he's he's gotten himself to where

45:13

he's a above average three point shooter

45:15

and he'll make big ones he's gone

45:17

and versatile he can pull up off

45:20

the dribble now he can pull up

45:22

behind he can catch and shoot all

45:24

those things. He's a master, master, master,

45:26

historic master of the mid-range, creating space,

45:28

separation, length, bumps, all those things. He's

45:30

a great driver, right? We're using his

45:32

length, getting to the rim, somehow getting

45:34

to the backboard, where you're either too

45:37

late or he's too high, or whatever

45:39

it is. And then the fourth dimension

45:41

in sense is his ability to draw

45:43

fouls, right? So like, it's amazing to

45:45

hear him who's... Play it against him.

45:47

Talk about like the damned if you

45:49

do damned if you don't. If you're

45:51

physical, he can use that against you.

45:54

If you're unphysically used that against you.

45:56

If you can't get to a spot,

45:58

he draws a foul. If you play

46:00

off him, you can shoot the three.

46:02

If you play him tight, he's in

46:04

the gaps. Like, he's got a counter

46:06

for almost everything other than let's hit

46:08

him. Right, let's make someone else. Pete

46:10

has, and I think there are some

46:13

numbers for a lot of the season

46:15

where they were a lead and pick

46:17

and roll, where he was able to

46:19

make the decision, they were like below

46:21

average, and they're a great team. Below

46:23

average when teams got the ball out

46:25

of his hands, like, you know, or

46:27

got the good this dude is. Hey,

46:30

I'm Cassie DePekyll, the host of Wonderies

46:32

podcast Against the Odds. In each episode,

46:35

we share thrilling true stories of survival,

46:37

putting you in the shoes of the

46:39

people who live to tell the tale.

46:42

In our next season, it's February 14th,

46:44

1979. Elmo Wortman and his three children

46:46

are stranded on a remote Alaskan island

46:49

after a massive storm destroys her sailboat.

46:51

Miles for help. Miles from help, they

46:53

have to face the brutal cold with

46:55

barely any food, only a sale for

46:58

shelter, and a leaky plastic dingy. Desperate

47:00

to survive, they build a raft and

47:02

try to reach safety. But as starvation

47:05

and frostbite take hold and days stretch

47:07

into weeks, their endurance is pushed to

47:09

the limit. Follow against the odds wherever

47:12

you get your podcasts. You can listen

47:14

ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery

47:16

app. As a contractor for the NSA,

47:18

Edward Snowden had access to a range

47:21

of top-secret government programs. But as he

47:23

learned more about these clandestine operations, he

47:25

came to understand a devastating secret. The

47:28

government was conducting mass surveillance on its

47:30

own citizens. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the

47:32

host of Wondery Show American scandal. We

47:35

bring to life some of the biggest

47:37

controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental

47:39

disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series,

47:41

whistleblower Edward Snowden changes the national conversation

47:44

about privacy on the internet as he

47:46

risks his own freedom and his family's

47:48

well-being. Follow American scandal on the Wonder

47:51

App or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:53

Listen to all episodes ad free and

47:55

be the first to binge the newest

47:58

season only. on Wonder Plus. You can

48:00

join Wonder Plus in the Wonder App.

48:02

Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free

48:04

trial today. What do you think when

48:07

you watch the Pacers? I think like

48:09

right now, you're seeing a really connected

48:11

group. A seemingly connected, unselfish, committed to

48:14

winning. Committed to their pace, committed to

48:16

their principles. It's not like a look

48:18

at me, I'm a win the game.

48:21

It seems like a very team effort,

48:23

which they've been really good at. which

48:25

has made them a good team these

48:27

past, you know, a couple seasons. playoffs

48:30

is where it's stressed the most and

48:32

last year they're able to do it

48:34

effectively. And so this year, like, you

48:37

know, they had that slow start, but

48:39

they picked it up, they figured it

48:41

out. And I mean, a lot of

48:44

it starts with Tyrese's ability to just

48:46

purely distribute. kick the ball at the

48:48

floor and he's like the pace engine

48:50

but you have contributions balance going across

48:53

the board where guys are stepping up

48:55

making shots playing their role it's it's

48:57

right now the way they're playing the

49:00

form they're in is like that's that's

49:02

their recipe yeah I mean they're they're

49:04

a different look to most teams right

49:07

like they play quicker, they play freer

49:09

on offense, they space you out, they

49:11

try to play drawing kick, get to

49:13

blender, Tyreas's ability to throw ahead, makes

49:16

teams tough, like that's why the pace

49:18

and space era was created because we

49:20

realize teams that are retreating or backpedaling

49:23

are not going to be able to

49:25

guard, rotate, you know, build their defense,

49:27

and they exploit that as well as

49:30

anyone in the league. So I think

49:32

they give everyone like it's a curveball

49:34

too in that respect, and that respect.

49:36

All these guys are able to like

49:39

play their role well plus, right? Like

49:41

Andrew Nemhore, like he's accepted. I'm a

49:43

defender first. I'm gonna be our lead

49:46

kind of point of attack defender. You

49:48

know, he's shooting a struggle this year,

49:50

but he still steps up in big

49:53

moments and makes plays, draws a foul,

49:55

makes a floater, hits a three, like

49:57

timely stuff. And then obviously, you know.

50:00

Tyrese and Pascal and these guys

50:02

and they have great versatility too and

50:04

like they have a a rim protecting

50:06

center can stretch the floor you know like

50:08

that those things are so value for teams

50:10

like this where the center can get out

50:13

of the paint run down the floor either

50:15

trail play five out or run to the

50:17

corner and let those guys play in their

50:19

little touch and go drags and getting in

50:21

the gaps while they're not set so they

50:24

are just a curveball for a lot of

50:26

teams and I mean, I just love for

50:28

the league that we have a team that

50:30

plays with that pace and that openness. I

50:32

was gonna say, do you feel like when

50:35

we were talking before about just

50:37

how the physicality can wear you

50:39

down? Just the, you just get

50:41

gassed. Feeling with these guys, because

50:43

they're just feeling with these guys,

50:46

because they're just going, feeling with

50:48

these guys, because they're just, no

50:50

matter what, they're going. No matter

50:52

what, you're going. But you, it's

50:54

an unavoidable thing for your, as

50:56

an opponent of that. And so

50:58

because of that, and I'm curious

51:01

to your perspective, you know, as a

51:03

person who's, knows this as well as

51:05

anybody about the mental toll that can

51:07

have an opponent knowing that can have

51:09

an opponent knowing that can have an

51:11

opponent knowing that you're dealing with this

51:14

for seven games regardless. Well, I'd love

51:16

to hear CAM's perspective because he plays

51:18

against them, but you know, it's a

51:20

double-edged sword because, you know, you know,

51:22

On the other hand, like when you

51:24

talk about fatigue, like Mike used to

51:27

say to us and maybe this

51:29

augmenter point, Mike Dantone used

51:31

to say, like, you're gonna be more

51:33

tired running up and down fast or

51:35

wrestling with someone all night? And so

51:37

in a sense, like, they can go both ways,

51:39

right? Who gets their midst on you first

51:42

versus who, you know, gets you up and

51:44

down first? What at that point, the,

51:46

the, the, where the pace becomes most

51:48

effective is when it keeps the other

51:50

team off guard then? Right? Like if

51:52

you keep Milwaukee on their heels, then

51:54

it would be ultra-effective. If Milwaukee gets

51:56

a handle on it, starts to turn

51:58

it into a physical battle. that's what

52:00

can really slow the Pacers down. You

52:02

know what I mean? Really make their

52:04

engine sputter. And so that's the battle

52:06

that Milwaukee has right now is how

52:09

can we get our hands on them?

52:11

How can we slow them down? And

52:13

then dictate from there. And even if

52:15

it can still be a high pace

52:17

game, but you can tell who's dictating

52:19

pace and the Pacers have been successful

52:21

at dictating so far. I wanted to

52:23

go back to our combo on the

52:25

experience front and just the sort of

52:27

wins that come from just. living through

52:29

this, but I want to talk about

52:31

Detroit in particular. As we're taping this,

52:33

I mean this will come out, the

52:36

series is one one, if an amazing

52:38

season, Cade will get into just as

52:40

just an incredible player overall, but it

52:42

feels like a team like this, even

52:44

though they do have some veterans and

52:46

we'll talk about Dennis and Tobias and

52:48

some of this, some of their contributions,

52:50

they also feel like a team that's

52:52

just playing with house money, and I'm

52:54

curious like your perspective, It kind of

52:56

feels like they have nothing to lose

52:58

and it's going to be really loud

53:00

in Detroit on Thursday, but they feel

53:03

like they lose where there isn't a,

53:05

you know, they're the opposite of the

53:07

Spurs. They're coming into the situation and

53:09

they're like, we're not supposed to be

53:11

here. And so does it just, does

53:13

that provide a little bit of a

53:15

mental edge in that no matter what

53:17

happens, this six season is already a

53:19

massive success for them? I think it's

53:21

a success for sure. I think the

53:23

rosterers improved. It can work both ways.

53:25

So right now, they maybe don't feel

53:27

the pressure of the Knicks field because

53:30

of expectations, but if it gets close

53:32

at the end of the series. And

53:34

we saw it at game one already.

53:36

They're gonna feel that, right? They're gonna

53:38

feel that, right? They're gonna feel that,

53:40

right? They're gonna feel that. So down

53:42

the stretch of games at the business

53:44

end of a series, you know, they

53:46

don't have the collective scars. years in

53:48

the league that are yet to kind

53:50

of earn their stripes and scars in

53:52

the playoffs. Now he's an elite player,

53:54

so that's one reason why they're so

53:56

successful. but the key players around them,

53:59

a lot of them are young guys.

54:01

Now they got a couple vets to

54:03

buy a serious, it's gonna be hard

54:05

away, but like, that's a team that's

54:07

on the ascent. So it is house

54:09

money in respect, but like they are

54:11

talented enough, they have found a way

54:13

of playing, you know, under Coach Biggerstaff,

54:15

where they, like, they can win the

54:17

series. It's just a matter of like,

54:19

how hard does New York mega form

54:21

and how do they respond to that?

54:23

they'll be okay. It's not, it's not

54:26

doom and gloom, it's not like, you

54:28

know, that's like, if you lose, there's

54:30

still so much positivity around your season

54:32

that you can continue escalating. But I

54:34

think there is still pressure in the

54:36

moment. I think it's still pressure in

54:38

the moment. I think it's still gonna,

54:40

I think as the series progresses, no

54:42

matter how it progresses, you're gonna see

54:44

how they react to that pressure and

54:46

they're gonna be like, It's going to

54:48

come down to like you're going to

54:50

have like you're going to have to

54:53

have K performing the way K does,

54:55

but then you get contributions like to

54:57

bias in the first half. You get

54:59

contributions like Schroeder making big plays on

55:01

the stretch. I told you it's going

55:03

to come down to like who on

55:05

the roster is going to step up

55:07

and make these big plays. Yes, K

55:09

is going to do what he does,

55:11

but you're going to need Beasley to

55:13

hit timely shots. You're going to need

55:15

Harris to hit timely shots. Hardway. It's

55:17

just going to be on New York

55:20

to counter that, campaign and game one

55:22

comes up huge, sparks and run, boom,

55:24

New York runs away with it. We

55:26

talked about this last time, we talked

55:28

about it a bunch, I guess this

55:30

year, because Dennis was Camp's teammate earlier

55:32

this season. To me, it's a little...

55:34

I understand why the Warriors had to

55:36

trade him, because he was a part

55:38

of the Jimmy deal, but it's a

55:40

little... shocking it was this easy for

55:42

them to get him and it's completely

55:44

unsurprising that he hit that shot the

55:46

other night because when I think about

55:49

Dennis I think about I think about

55:51

him hitting big shots in massive games

55:53

over and over again all over the

55:55

world. He's done it in the NBA

55:57

and he's done it globally. And it

55:59

feels like that's a guy that does

56:01

have his scars. So like when he's

56:03

taking that shot the other night, you're

56:05

like, yeah, like no shit, no shit

56:07

he's hitting that, he's hitting that shot,

56:09

that same shot Manila to win a

56:11

gold medal. Not afraid, he's been there

56:13

before. I just don't think gold save

56:16

as a good fit. I just don't

56:18

think it was a great fit. trying

56:20

to just adapt to around the way

56:22

they played. It's just not, I don't

56:24

think it was really the way he

56:26

wanted to play and how he's been

56:28

able to, like he had a great

56:30

start to the season with us. And

56:32

he was like the engine, emotional, point

56:34

guard, like you walk on the court

56:36

with that guy, you know you got

56:38

somebody that got your back no matter

56:40

what, he's gonna bark at a fan,

56:43

he's gonna bark at a player. He's

56:45

gonna be, if something pops off, he's

56:47

front and center, he's front and center.

56:49

That's exactly what you want. Somebody that's

56:51

always going to have your back. It's

56:53

always going to be able to get

56:55

down and dirty with you. But in

56:57

the playoffs right now, like Detroit has

56:59

made their identity this season on barking,

57:01

on playing hard, on being physical, not

57:03

afraid to fight literally and figuratively. And

57:05

he just fits really well with what

57:07

they're doing. And he was a great

57:10

piece for them. Yeah, that's a good

57:12

fit. I mean, Golden State, you know,

57:14

he's more of a... ball screen guard,

57:16

like get me in the pick and

57:18

roll, let me get in the gaps

57:20

and make plays. How many ball screen

57:22

opportunities are you going to get in

57:24

Golden State? Like they're not a heavy

57:26

ball screen team. When they do run

57:28

them, there's a lot of stuff. You

57:30

know, they're more of a pinch post,

57:32

cut off, cut off, all that stuff.

57:34

You know, they're more of a pinch

57:36

post, cut off, all that splits, all

57:39

that stuff. You know, they're more of

57:41

a pinch post, cut off, cut off,

57:43

cut off, cut off, all the ball,

57:45

all the ball, all of the post,

57:47

all of the post, cut off, all

57:49

of the pinch post, all of the

57:51

pinch post, all of the pinch post,

57:53

all-post, all-post, all-post, all-post. You know. You

57:55

know, cut-you-you-you-you- You know, cut-you- You know,

57:57

cut- You know, cut- You know, cut-you-

57:59

and beautiful and unique to our league

58:01

in many respects, but an adjustment for

58:03

a lot of people. Jimmy's a great

58:06

fit, so to speak. you know, compared

58:08

to Dennis in that way, obviously they're

58:10

different caliber players and different careers, but,

58:12

you know, that often is the case,

58:14

like, what is the fit? Like, how

58:16

does someone fit into what you do?

58:18

And Dennis can be a little polarizing,

58:20

but that's what also makes him great.

58:22

Like you said, like, he's, you know,

58:24

he's got like, he's agro, and that's

58:26

what makes him great too, is like

58:28

he's not going to back down, he's

58:30

not afraid. So you can't ask for...

58:33

Both right you got to take it

58:35

all and I think you see that

58:37

with a lot of guys often our

58:39

best biggest strengths are also our weaknesses

58:41

Yeah, how you manage them how you

58:43

make sure that you balance that in

58:45

a positive direction. What's your read on

58:47

this Golden State Houston series? It's gonna

58:49

be a you know a great series

58:51

I mean you obviously the Fascinating series,

58:53

you know Houston's had an amazing year

58:55

and they have a really unique team

58:57

with a bunch of really competitive athletic

59:00

dudes You know, you may's personality is

59:02

physicality, combat, you know, all those things

59:04

that I think they've taken on, which

59:06

is great. On the flipside, Golden State

59:08

just has so much experience. He'd been

59:10

there so many times, like, you know,

59:12

there was that regular season game where

59:14

Curry struggled late in the season, and

59:16

everyone thought, oh, maybe Houston can like

59:18

take him out of it. Like, this

59:20

dude, it's just like, how many moments

59:22

has he put together where he's just

59:24

made, like the, the, the Paris stuff

59:26

like. The semifinal final, like, and I,

59:29

you know what's amazing about stuff is,

59:31

same guy every day. Doesn't matter if

59:33

he's on a heater averaging 40 for

59:35

a month or he's struggling, legs are

59:37

gone and he's averaging 20. He's comes

59:39

in every day, like happy, excited to

59:41

be there, loves the environment, loves his

59:43

job, you know, like, you don't know

59:45

how, what a gift that is for

59:47

a team and an organization when like

59:49

your star player is just like. elated

59:51

to play basketball for a living and

59:53

can't, like a kid, can't wait to

59:56

get to the gym and work every

59:58

day and play and be damned. And

1:00:00

like, so like for me, one, that's

1:00:02

what makes him unique. And then two,

1:00:04

all these moments, you know, like this,

1:00:06

you know, you've seen to make the,

1:00:08

whatever, the 40-footer against OKC, was it

1:00:10

in the playoffs? You've seen to make

1:00:12

these shots and the semis and the

1:00:14

finals and the Olympics, like, these are

1:00:16

crazy, crazy shots and moments, and he

1:00:18

rises to them. And it's almost like

1:00:20

you can feel like you can feel

1:00:23

like coming? You're like, he's like, he's

1:00:25

like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:00:27

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:00:29

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:00:31

he's, he's, he's making, he's making, he's

1:00:33

making, he's making, he's making, he's making,

1:00:35

he's making, he's making, he's making, he's

1:00:37

He does it in the biggest moments,

1:00:39

like it's, he's seen, he's done it.

1:00:41

He's done it. No, he's done it

1:00:43

to me. But I'm saying, like, has

1:00:45

he done to you where you're like,

1:00:47

what the fuck just happened? Yes, we

1:00:50

played them in Brooklyn two months ago,

1:00:52

and it's half time. It's two seconds

1:00:54

left and half, Jimmy Butler's bringing it

1:00:56

up. Him and Curry cross paths, we

1:00:58

switch whoever was garden, he flips it

1:01:00

back to Curry, I think, you can

1:01:02

pull the clip. But Curry gets it

1:01:04

with his back to the basket and

1:01:06

I am a foot away from him,

1:01:08

but he's at half court line off

1:01:10

towards the score table. So he's not

1:01:12

even centered. And I'm standing in front

1:01:14

of him like a foot and it's

1:01:16

like one moment where I remember this.

1:01:19

Yes, where I'm like, I'm like, I'm

1:01:21

not close enough. Maybe I should take

1:01:23

it. Like if we get close, you're

1:01:25

gonna foul. So I just like stand

1:01:27

there at my hands up. And you

1:01:29

know, with anybody else in the hands

1:01:31

up. Oh my god, that's not good

1:01:33

enough. And he turns around and chucks

1:01:35

it over his head and as soon

1:01:37

as it left his hand, I was

1:01:39

like, hey. It's in cash. Honestly, he's

1:01:41

a savant. The one other team sort

1:01:43

of similar to the Thunder that I

1:01:46

wanted to just get your thoughts on

1:01:48

briefly is the caps, another incredible season.

1:01:50

They still feel like they're somehow under

1:01:52

the radar even after a year like

1:01:54

this, it doesn't feel and maybe that's

1:01:56

because it may not be a super

1:01:58

competitive first round series. But just what

1:02:00

they what Kenny has done there what

1:02:02

they've built overall with the really deep

1:02:04

kind of veteran group. Kenny's done a

1:02:06

great job, made some tweaks to them

1:02:08

offensively I think as much as anything

1:02:10

that's made them, you know, I think

1:02:13

more unpredictable, you know, some of the

1:02:15

spacing cutting, quick hitting actions, but I

1:02:17

think why we don't talk about them

1:02:19

as much is because they got a

1:02:21

lot of unassuming players, terrific players, like

1:02:23

you know, even Donovan being, you know,

1:02:25

their star, you know, maybe it's partly

1:02:27

that it's not a huge market, but

1:02:29

like, like, made sacrifices this year for

1:02:31

the betterment of the team. You know,

1:02:33

you look at, look at the rest

1:02:35

of their starting, you know, unassuming guys,

1:02:37

right? Like, they're too big, they're super

1:02:40

unassuming, right? Like, that's, I think, why

1:02:42

they don't maybe get the attention is

1:02:44

that they don't have this kind of,

1:02:46

you know, outgoing personality as a team,

1:02:48

but man, like what a versatile group,

1:02:50

right? Like, they got... you know guards

1:02:52

that can make a lot of plays

1:02:54

they got shooting they got versatile defenders

1:02:56

they got the two bigs that give

1:02:58

them they can play together they can

1:03:00

play with one on the floor you

1:03:02

know i think it's um gonna be

1:03:04

fascinating to see the growth they make

1:03:06

this year during the playoffs because i

1:03:09

think there's no question that they should

1:03:11

be a conference finals team and then

1:03:13

how much you know resistance can they

1:03:15

give the Celtics they've done it during

1:03:17

the regular season but now in the

1:03:19

playoffs Celtics fully healthy like it could

1:03:21

be a seven game series I still

1:03:23

give Boston the edge because of their,

1:03:25

I mean obviously their roster, but their

1:03:27

experience, collective experience. But Cleveland's capable man,

1:03:29

it's going to be a fun journey

1:03:31

here. Yeah, two smaller guards, two bigs

1:03:33

is not the most common formula and

1:03:36

NBA is very formula base. Not the

1:03:38

most common formula, and not only have

1:03:40

they done it, but they've done it

1:03:42

exceptionally well, and they figured out ways

1:03:44

to make that like their ultimate weapon.

1:03:46

And on top of that, man, shout

1:03:48

out touch around. I was going to

1:03:50

say. Shout out ties around. Yeah, he's

1:03:52

been great. And Garland, Garland, man, what

1:03:54

a player, man. Like, he's like, you

1:03:56

know, he's the second fiddle in a

1:03:58

sense to Donovan. But like, having these

1:04:00

two guys that can make plays that

1:04:03

can play off each other, take turns,

1:04:05

accept one another, like is super valuable.

1:04:07

And Thai giving them that lift off

1:04:09

the bench is huge. And then adding

1:04:11

guys like Max Strues and Hunter, like

1:04:13

gives them versatility on the perimeter where

1:04:15

you need bodies to defend, can still

1:04:17

space the floor. Like those were big

1:04:19

upgrades I think for them. And it's

1:04:21

gonna be exciting man. I just like

1:04:23

the way they try to play for

1:04:25

each other. And that to me as

1:04:27

always, it shows a level of IQ.

1:04:29

So it'll be fun to see how

1:04:32

they do in their first kind of

1:04:34

big year with Kenny. Is there a

1:04:36

specific mental match up in the next

1:04:38

couple weeks you guys are particularly excited

1:04:40

to see? So for me, I just

1:04:42

love this Lakers mini Minnesota back and

1:04:44

forth and this clippers nuggets. Like those

1:04:46

two are like we're lucky man, two

1:04:48

first round series with like, you know,

1:04:50

pretty elite teams, right? A lot of

1:04:52

them. are kind of different. I mean,

1:04:54

Minnesota made a trade, Lakers made a

1:04:56

trade, you know, obviously there's been a

1:04:59

lot of turmoil and change in Denver.

1:05:01

So I think you got a bit

1:05:03

of everything. And also, Tai Lu and

1:05:05

that coaching staff, you know, they've weathered

1:05:07

a lot of stuff this year, a

1:05:09

lot of injuries, kept that team on

1:05:11

track, playing well without Kauai, you know,

1:05:13

Zubach having an incredible season, James Hardin

1:05:15

now playing his best basketball in a

1:05:17

few years, I think. Kauai Leonard is

1:05:19

like Kauai Leonard again right now. So

1:05:21

like they can beat anyone at any

1:05:23

time because of the way their talent

1:05:26

is playing and the balance they found.

1:05:28

They're defending like they've been an excellent

1:05:30

net rating team here to close the

1:05:32

season. So now is a gift for

1:05:34

us to get to watch these these

1:05:36

two series in the first round. I

1:05:38

agree. I think we'll close with this

1:05:40

just because this is a topic we've

1:05:42

all sort of talked about independently. And

1:05:44

it's a very broad sort of question,

1:05:46

but I think you guys both have

1:05:48

unique perspectives in this. What do you

1:05:50

think makes a good leader or a

1:05:53

great leader I should say? So I

1:05:55

always say the number one thing in

1:05:57

leadership is to be authentic, be yourself.

1:05:59

Like don't think, don't read out of

1:06:01

a leadership book, don't think I watched

1:06:03

a high school football movie. Like if

1:06:05

you're a quiet leader, lead. quietly, you

1:06:07

know, like your teammates need to believe

1:06:09

in your motives and that you care

1:06:11

about the group. It doesn't matter if

1:06:13

you're like, you know, the loud leader,

1:06:15

the quiet leader, if they don't believe

1:06:17

that you want the group to do

1:06:19

well and you're willing to help sacrifice

1:06:22

for the team, you're not a leader,

1:06:24

they're not gonna follow you. So I

1:06:26

think that's where it starts, you know,

1:06:28

and then it's like just watching your

1:06:30

habits. Right? Like, what are your habits?

1:06:32

Because your habits are really who you

1:06:34

are. Whether you voice them or you

1:06:36

don't, it's like, what are your behaviors?

1:06:38

You're doing every day. And if your

1:06:40

teammates see that over and over, they

1:06:42

believe in you, they'll follow you, they'll

1:06:44

run through a wall for you because

1:06:46

they know that you care. And that's

1:06:49

the number one thing. I think all

1:06:51

of us being human beings, we want

1:06:53

belief, we want support, we want hope,

1:06:55

a chance to get better. We want

1:06:57

a chance to get better. We want

1:06:59

a chance to get better. We want

1:07:01

a chance to get better. We want

1:07:03

a chance to get better. You know,

1:07:05

it comes off intrinsically, guys buy in,

1:07:07

they want to play for, it's a

1:07:09

big word to say for him, but

1:07:11

they want to follow and fill the

1:07:13

gaps for their leader who has the

1:07:16

most responsibility. I'd love to hear your

1:07:18

take. Yeah, I completely agree. Guys sniff

1:07:20

out the BS, the fake stuff, the,

1:07:22

you know, the act, it's easily sniffed

1:07:24

out for sure. And then the other

1:07:26

element to it is again, piggy backing

1:07:28

off what you said is just like,

1:07:30

be who you say you say you

1:07:32

are. show that day in and day

1:07:34

out and be that example that like

1:07:36

that I feel like that's what you

1:07:38

guys respond to is like okay I've

1:07:40

seen him for two months six months

1:07:43

a year two years and he's been

1:07:45

the same person he's been the same

1:07:47

worker he's been the same steady presence

1:07:49

whatever it may be voice whatever it

1:07:51

may be but like be be that

1:07:53

person consistently you know what I mean

1:07:55

don't I mean and I think those

1:07:57

guys that I've played with that have

1:07:59

exhibited those tendencies have been have been

1:08:01

easy to rally around and and like

1:08:03

Just as I'm getting older in my

1:08:05

career and transitioning from younger guy to

1:08:07

more veteran presence like you see the

1:08:09

that your own emotional mental state has

1:08:12

on the rest of the groups, like

1:08:14

being cognizant of that? I think another

1:08:16

part of this, and you're kind of

1:08:18

leading toward it or right around it,

1:08:20

is being able to take the heat

1:08:22

for your team when you need to.

1:08:24

Like, take some, you know, you can

1:08:26

still drive your teammates, but you can

1:08:28

also take a lot of the risk

1:08:30

off the table for your teammates by

1:08:32

making them feel okay to fail. making

1:08:34

them feel like I can miss a

1:08:36

shot, I can make a turnover. He's

1:08:39

not gonna turn his back on me

1:08:41

because I made a mistake. Like being

1:08:43

able to after a playoff, tough playoff

1:08:45

loss, take the blame, you know, not

1:08:47

point fingers, not look around like, well,

1:08:49

they didn't, you know, do shit, even

1:08:51

if that's true, be like, man, I

1:08:53

can play better, it starts with me,

1:08:55

right, like I missed a couple assignments,

1:08:57

you know, whatever it is. I think

1:08:59

that allows players, players to feel like.

1:09:01

You know, like he's got our back,

1:09:03

like it's, you know, it's, he has

1:09:06

the responsibility, he might get the moonlight,

1:09:08

so to speak, the spotlight, but being

1:09:10

able to say like, but he'll also

1:09:12

take the heat and is willing to

1:09:14

put himself out there and, or be

1:09:16

vulnerable with his teammates and be like,

1:09:18

yeah, I screwed that up, you know,

1:09:20

I can do better, like, I think

1:09:22

that's a big component of leadership, a

1:09:24

lot of noise, a lot of talk,

1:09:26

the last thing. So Steve Nash, we

1:09:28

will be watching these games and talk

1:09:30

to you soon. Thanks, ma'am. Appreciate you.

1:09:36

At 24 I lost my narrative,

1:09:38

or rather it was stolen from

1:09:40

me, and the Monica Lewinsky that

1:09:42

my friends and family knew was

1:09:44

usurped by false narratives, callous jokes,

1:09:47

and politics. I would define reclaiming

1:09:49

as to take back what was

1:09:51

yours, something you possess is lost

1:09:53

or stolen, and ultimately you triumph

1:09:55

in finding it again. So I

1:09:57

think listeners... can expect me to

1:09:59

be chatting with folks both recognizable

1:10:02

and unrecognizable names about the way

1:10:04

that people have navigated roads to

1:10:06

triumph. My hope is that people

1:10:08

will finish an episode of reclaiming

1:10:10

and feel like they filled their

1:10:12

tank up. They connected with the

1:10:14

people that I'm talking to and

1:10:17

leave with maybe some nuggets that

1:10:19

help them feel a little more

1:10:21

hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

1:10:23

on the Wundery app or wherever

1:10:25

you get your podcasts. You can

1:10:27

listen to reclaiming early and ad-free

1:10:29

right now by joining Wundery Plus

1:10:32

in the Wundery app or on

1:10:34

Apple podcasts. In

1:10:36

the early hours of December 4th,

1:10:38

2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out

1:10:41

onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.

1:10:43

This assailant pulls out a weapon

1:10:45

and starts firing at him. We're

1:10:47

talking about the CEO of the

1:10:50

biggest private health insurance corporation in

1:10:52

the world. And the suspect. He

1:10:54

has been identified as Luigi Nicholas

1:10:56

Mangioni, became one of the most

1:10:59

divisive figures in modern criminal history.

1:11:01

I was targeted, premeditated, and meant

1:11:03

to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber,

1:11:05

host of Luigi, produced by Law

1:11:07

and Crime and Twist. This is

1:11:10

more than a true crime investigation.

1:11:12

We explore a uniquely American moment

1:11:14

that could change the country forever.

1:11:16

He's woken the people to a

1:11:19

true issue. Finally, maybe this would

1:11:21

lead rich and powerful people to

1:11:23

acknowledge the barbaric nature of our

1:11:25

healthcare system. Listen to law and

1:11:28

crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.

1:11:30

You can join Wondery Plus in

1:11:32

the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple

1:11:34

Podcasts.