0:00

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to the

0:02

old man in the three add free right

0:04

now join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app

0:06

or on Apple podcasts Welcome

0:25

to episode 8 the young man

0:27

in the three our host today

0:29

are Mr. Cam Johnson and Mr.

0:31

Sue Bird Jason Gallagher. What's up,

0:33

man? Not

0:36

much man This is

0:38

an awesome episode We put out

0:40

a teaser clip today. It's doing really

0:42

well if you like that clip It's

0:45

it's pretty much an hour and 15

0:48

minutes of that some really great discussions

0:50

so much so that on the production

0:52

side We're like we don't feel like

0:54

we're doing any anything justice by just

0:56

clipping out like 30 seconds Like we

0:58

feel like we have to push a

1:00

full three five minute clip on social

1:03

Which is a big which is a

1:05

big no -no on Thursday the 19th

1:07

We taped the interview on Tuesday the

1:09

17th, but we're gonna be trying a

1:11

lot of different stuff With you know

1:13

cam over the next couple months. Obviously,

1:15

we've done a lot with Sue already

1:18

and we'll continue to do that I

1:20

wanted to provide a little sort of

1:22

context on these intros We're gonna be

1:24

trying a few different things in

1:26

the opening segments In addition to the

1:28

interviews over the next couple months And

1:30

so I think we would like to

1:32

sort of like bracket out the

1:34

intro and the interviews as Different parts of

1:36

the show. Yeah the intro

1:38

and the interviews as different

1:41

parts of the show Yeah, yeah, I'm

1:43

excited and you know I'm looking

1:45

forward to getting a few takes off

1:47

myself. I got one right you

1:49

got one right now I've thought about

1:51

it. You know you you all

1:53

touch on it really nicely on the

1:55

In the conversation about you know

1:57

the ratings discussion the all -star

2:00

So it's probably a little played out.

2:02

I wouldn't be the first one to

2:04

say it. I saw Kenny Beacham say

2:06

it. I saw Tim McMahon say it.

2:08

Spit it out. Okay, see not me

2:10

on Christmas Day is travesty. I still

2:12

fully believe that. But I'm actually gonna

2:14

zag a little bit. I didn't

2:16

warn you with this. Okay, you ready? I

2:19

like it. NBA is just a little

2:21

too online. The league. I think that

2:23

they're chasing a lot of gripes that

2:25

the internet sort of... has and manufactures,

2:28

you know, primarily led by, you know,

2:30

the first takes of the world. And

2:32

I feel like they're constantly trying to

2:34

appease those gripes. And that's how you

2:36

wind up with a new all-star format

2:38

every year. If I were them, I

2:40

would take a page from... the NFL's

2:42

playbook and just just not pay attention

2:45

to the people griping online because the

2:47

product is good. So I don't know,

2:49

I don't know, that's my take. It's

2:51

all, I would just, you know, like

2:53

we all need to do some times,

2:55

just shut the laptop, go outside. That's

2:57

my recommendation. I'm not even disagreeing with

2:59

the take. Sue and I were talking

3:02

about this the other day, maybe off

3:04

the show about how the NFL protects

3:06

the shield. Don't you think... The NBA

3:08

is now is sort of symbiotic of

3:10

the issue that affects a lot of

3:12

society in that case in

3:14

that in that it is reactive to

3:16

You know gripes that are maybe a

3:19

small number of people who are

3:21

particularly loud have an opinion

3:23

on this and all of a

3:26

sudden, you know, whether it's policy

3:28

changes or whatever it may be So

3:30

it's almost that you're not wrong as

3:32

much as it is they are where

3:34

everyone else is right now So

3:36

I have no disagreements there, but I

3:39

will say that I really think that

3:41

the Thunder not playing on Christmas Day.

3:43

It's just bad. I hadn't done this

3:45

until a couple days ago where it's

3:47

like when you look at the NFL's

3:49

Christmas Day schedule, and it's like they

3:51

based that schedule off of who they thought

3:53

was gonna be really good that year.

3:56

And obviously there was, you know, you've

3:58

scheduled these things out before. the season

4:00

so stuff changes but they're certainly

4:02

not selecting this because of any

4:04

sort of market size. They're selecting

4:06

this based off of the teams

4:08

they think are they're going to

4:10

be good and I highly recommend

4:12

listening to a couple weeks ago

4:14

Bill Simmons and Chuck Closterman

4:16

sort of talked about the difference between

4:19

the NFL and the NBA and I

4:21

thought it was a really interesting discussion. I

4:23

just think put your best teams. Well

4:25

it's also it's also they didn't come

4:27

out of nowhere. I don't know. We're

4:30

going to get into this. We're going

4:32

to spoil it or hopefully not a janks.

4:34

We're going to have a bunch of the

4:36

Thunder guys on the show coming up. And

4:38

so I think we can get into it

4:40

with them, but I'm just, maybe this will

4:42

add a little chip to that shoulder. A

4:45

couple things. one housekeeping note. We're not

4:47

going to put an episode out Christmas

4:49

week because it's Christmas week and you

4:51

know people have better things to do

4:53

than listen to us or watch us

4:56

or do whatever. Hopefully they're watching NBA

4:58

NFL and hang with their family and

5:00

then fantasy update. What do you have?

5:02

There are four people left in the

5:05

league. It is myself, is Tommy Alters,

5:07

Pablo Torrey, and is Tim Robinson. So

5:09

all of the professional athletes have been

5:11

eliminated, all of the- I think people

5:14

are pissed in our league that it's

5:16

us. And I'm like, my team isn't good,

5:18

it's just luck. It's not like I rigged

5:20

it with a stacked roster. We went

5:22

through it last week, but I think

5:25

my luck has run out. My whole

5:27

team is Lamar Jackson. I just really

5:29

laugh at who's at who's at the

5:31

top of the food chain in this

5:33

league chain in this league. the biggest

5:35

Lions fan that we know, I mean,

5:37

unless you have people in your life,

5:39

I don't know, but he's definitely the

5:41

biggest Lions fan that I know, and

5:43

he has no guys on the Lions,

5:45

on this insanely prolific offense, he has

5:47

no guys on this team, for whatever

5:49

reason, and yet he's just, he's just

5:51

rocking and rolling. It's like, he's like

5:53

120 every week. Yeah, I mean, I

5:55

can't think of another Lions fan other

5:58

than his buddy Sam Sam Richardson, That's

6:00

it. Well, we've talked enough. Enjoy this conversation

6:02

with Cam Johnson and Sue Burt. It

6:04

goes through about hour 20 or so. We

6:06

hit a lot of different really great

6:08

topics. I think you guys are really gonna

6:10

like it. And we will see you

6:12

back the week after Christmas with we got

6:14

a bunch of good guests coming up.

6:16

So I think you will enjoy those as

6:18

well. Peace. Hello.

6:25

Yeah. Hey,

6:28

Sue. Let's talk about your high school basketball

6:30

experience. OK, you're taking it

6:32

back to the 90s. Back to the 90s. Let's do

6:34

it. Yeah,

6:37

my high school basketball experience, when I really look back on

6:39

it, it's like I could talk about, you

6:41

know, I actually went to two

6:44

high schools. So I could talk about that.

6:46

I could talk about playing. But I

6:48

think what's really interesting about that timeline for

6:50

me is I go into high school.

6:52

There is no WNBA. And then

6:54

come my junior year, the WNBA starts.

6:56

And so there's just like a

6:58

shift there in mentality, in like goals

7:00

as a young kid. I'm

7:03

choosing a college now based on knowing

7:05

there's a professional league. But when I

7:07

really think back on it, it was

7:09

watching the 96 Olympic team.

7:12

Like the names you would know is like Lisa Leslie, Sheryl

7:14

Swoops. I mean, I could go on there. So you're, but

7:16

Denizio. So your freshman year of high

7:18

school, W does not

7:20

exist. No. What

7:22

is your basketball, like as freshmen

7:24

too, what is your basketball trajectory

7:26

in your mind? Well, that's kind of

7:29

like where the joke lives. It was getting

7:31

up the college scholarship. Like I heard

7:33

about that. There were times where my dad

7:35

would be like, hey, the women's Final Four is on. But

7:37

that was really the only thing that was on TV.

7:39

You weren't catching a game on a Thursday night on a

7:41

weekend. So where the

7:43

joke lives is like, nobody was

7:45

like dreaming of playing overseas. Like I'm

7:47

not a 14 year old kid

7:49

dreaming of playing in Russia. That didn't

7:51

exist. So it was like, get

7:53

the college scholarship, which I was

7:55

already getting letters. I definitely want to ask

7:57

you who your first one was. already

8:00

getting letters and then it's like oh

8:02

now I see this Olympic team and I'm

8:04

like oh is that it could that be a

8:06

goal and that becomes this like not even

8:08

a goal it just becomes a dream.

8:10

So when the when the W is

8:12

formed at what point in at what point

8:15

in your brain it's funny because we talk

8:17

about this all the time with guys but

8:19

when you when you thought like being a

8:21

pro was a possibility much less a thing

8:24

that's likely at what point did that

8:26

become a thing pre-ucon and dominating? or you're

8:28

like, okay, this is, this now exists, I'm

8:30

in high school, this is a thing that

8:32

I could become an immediate goal. Yes. Or

8:34

is it more just like the fact that

8:36

it's there is like encouragement to just keep

8:38

going on the trajectory? I'm like, yeah, I'm

8:40

thrilled it's an option. I still can't, you still

8:43

can't fully conceptualize what it means. But I did

8:45

go to some of the early liberty games. I'm

8:47

from New York, from Long Island. What was

8:49

the first, what was the first, or was the first,

8:51

or was the first arena arena arena arena?

8:54

arena? The garden. Oh, they were in the

8:56

garden. It started at the garden.

8:58

Guys, these games? Yeah, how were they? I

9:00

can't even tell you. Like, lit. Lit.

9:02

That's good. These games were unreal.

9:05

Because the energy, all of it,

9:07

unreal. Teresa, Weatherspoon is raising the

9:09

roof. I guess that was Cynthia

9:11

Cooper raising the roof. Teresa Weatherspoons,

9:14

like, like, so much passion. Rebecca

9:16

Logo is a big name on

9:18

the Liberty. Like, I can go

9:20

down the list. I can go

9:22

down the list. What was this, was

9:24

it the same schedule? Yeah, but it was,

9:26

God, now you're testing my history. I think

9:28

there was only maybe like eight teams at

9:31

the start, somebody to do a fact check.

9:33

I think there was only eight, like playoffs

9:35

was one game. So it was very condensed,

9:38

but I definitely went to those early

9:40

games. It is an insane journey. I was

9:42

talking to Mikhail about this other night, because

9:44

they were at the G League. At the g-league

9:46

the next g-league games where the

9:48

Liberty played for a few years.

9:50

So just having white planes having

9:53

the having MSG Trapped plates now

9:55

What was your first letter? Yeah,

9:57

what was your first letter? My first

9:59

letter Um, first letter that I can

10:01

remember opening and being geeked about

10:03

was I think Yale sophomore year of

10:05

high school. I love that. Um, yep.

10:09

I think that was my first let's go. That was

10:11

yours. Mine was Duke. Just

10:13

like the, yeah, for those that don't

10:15

know, it's like you get these like, they're

10:17

just formalities. Yeah. Like questionnaires. Yeah. It's

10:19

basically a questionnaire. They just want your

10:21

basic information. camp coming up or we're

10:23

doing this or you're on our radar.

10:25

There's like a little letter and then

10:27

there's a questionnaire, GPA, um,

10:29

you know, you ever think about what your life would

10:32

be like if you went to Yale? All

10:34

the time because Yale never actually turned

10:36

out to be one of the schools

10:38

that recruited me down the stretch, but

10:40

the IVs that were were Columbia and

10:43

Penn and of those two, I kind

10:45

of leaned towards Penn and made a

10:47

serious consideration towards it. You know, like

10:49

I applied through like to Wharton and

10:51

everything and I was good to go.

10:53

And so there was a point in

10:55

time where I was like, is this,

10:57

is this the route? And I was just talking about

10:59

that with a friend the other day and I was

11:01

like, life, my life would have been completely different. Would

11:04

you try to think who the last, I

11:06

didn't know the IV League route was, was like

11:08

on the table for you. It really was. Yeah.

11:10

That's interesting. It was a serious consideration.

11:12

Who's the last IV? NBA player?

11:14

Yeah. was it. It couldn't have

11:16

been. Oh, Devon Kennedy. Boom.

11:19

Yeah. He's from Princeton. Yeah. He's married to.

11:21

Yeah. That's it. That's it. That's gotta

11:23

be the last one. That has to be

11:25

the last one. It's amazing. It's amazing

11:27

what you're, because you would have fit so

11:29

well there as a present human being.

11:31

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it is crazy. Like

11:34

it's literally like life decisions that you

11:36

take your time and think about and huge

11:38

impacts, you know, like where you choose to

11:40

go. And for that, at that time

11:42

for me, you know, we're talking later high

11:44

school. Like I was a late, late

11:46

bloomer, really late bloomer was never a highly

11:48

ranked prospect by any means. And so,

11:50

and I was, I was a good student.

11:52

So it's like, there was tons of

11:55

legitimacy towards taking the Ivy League

11:57

route and having a really

11:59

good education. you know, my neighbor where

12:01

I grew up went to Wharton and

12:03

was, you know, very successful in that.

12:05

And it's just like, you see the

12:07

paths. It was like, this is a

12:09

good path to take. So, you know,

12:11

it's definitely in that. It's like, am

12:14

I gonna, you know, I feel like

12:16

I'm a major high level basketball player.

12:18

But nothing's guaranteed when you get to

12:20

college. You know, I'm I wasn't sitting

12:22

there thinking like okay if I go

12:24

to pit I'm going to league That's

12:26

my path. You know you just go

12:28

and scrap and hope for the best

12:30

so definitely crazy that it could result

12:33

in so many different things there. What

12:35

do you think? N-I-L in the last

12:37

two years of college would have been

12:39

like for you. Which is like I

12:41

told you from the jump it just

12:43

would have been yeah would have been

12:45

page ask I mean, it's

12:47

hard to say, like obviously it's different

12:49

journeys, but obviously what's different is just,

12:52

I guess what's different is like literally

12:54

society. I always feel so strange saying

12:56

that word, it feels so big, but

12:58

it's kind of just the truth. What's

13:00

different is society, so the attention is

13:02

different, all of it's different, but of

13:04

our time, like pound for pound, yeah,

13:06

me, my class, fast forward a couple

13:08

years, Diana, Diana comes in, yeah. It

13:10

would definitely have been on that level.

13:12

It was on that level of that

13:14

time, of what was available to us

13:17

in terms of popularity. I remember as

13:19

a kid watching those UConn teams. Yeah.

13:21

And like, yeah, so. We get that

13:23

a lot, like, to this day. It

13:25

is cool because it is changing a

13:27

little bit in that people recognize me

13:29

from the WMA, but to this day,

13:31

I probably get recognized. the most because

13:33

of my Yukon base. It is funny

13:35

we all went to the to the

13:37

Yukon game at Barclays last week. Yeah.

13:39

Just seeing those. Yeah. Camp security. There's

13:42

like only five pictures that's it like

13:44

we're not doing it all. Excuse me.

13:46

Can you give her some space? But

13:48

the way those fans traveled that was

13:50

like that my whole four years. Yeah.

13:52

On the road everywhere. I believe that.

13:54

When we were talking about. like

13:56

topics to get

13:58

into. I was curious

14:00

like both your

14:02

guys' perspective on this

14:04

with the MBA versus the W.

14:07

And, you know, there's a million reasons

14:09

to get into about just the growth

14:11

and popularity of the W overall. But

14:13

it feels like objectively speaking, how

14:16

successful college has been the

14:18

last few years has been a

14:20

huge just boost, just like

14:22

the ratings for Katelyn, for

14:24

LSU, for UConn, for South

14:26

Carolina, go on down the list. Do

14:28

you think the MBA, by doing this

14:31

stuff with Ignite and just basically like

14:33

cutting off college at the knees with

14:35

this shit, that has translated to

14:37

why there's not as much buzz for the

14:39

younger guys? I do think so. I

14:42

really, I do. And

14:44

I think the best point you made

14:46

is that like, look how much

14:48

buzz the women have created through college

14:50

basketball the last four or five

14:53

years, like amazing final fours, like great

14:55

ratings, just characters that are people

14:57

love, characters that people don't like. All

14:59

that stuff is important. Like there

15:01

got to be good people. There got

15:03

to be villains. It's just, it's

15:05

important. And this, the hero for one

15:07

person is a villain for another

15:09

and vice versa, but it created storylines

15:11

and it created drama and it

15:13

created things that you wanted to watch.

15:17

The overtime elite and the Ignite

15:19

just aren't generating the views

15:21

in the same way. And I

15:24

get the intention, but

15:26

college

15:28

basketball is a powerful machine in

15:30

creating tomorrow superstars in a

15:32

lot of ways. And you know,

15:34

I think everybody knows that

15:37

college sports is changing, but the

15:39

beauty of college sports is

15:41

that I think that what people

15:43

want to hang on to

15:45

is that you have these

15:47

athletes that are, you

15:49

watch them transform from

15:52

amateurs and kids in

15:54

an aspect into bigger stars

15:56

down the line, which is why

15:58

like when you start

16:00

to pay them more. It

16:02

kind of jumps that. And

16:04

I think that's where people

16:06

kind of first connect with

16:08

them. So obviously there's all that

16:11

at play. But yeah, I think that

16:13

college basketball traditionally

16:16

has brought us some of our

16:18

big stars, you know, minus a

16:20

couple guys like LeBron or

16:22

somebody. But yeah, it's kind of

16:24

like chopping you down at the knees

16:27

a little bit. Yeah, I, you're taking

16:29

the words out of my mouth. I

16:31

would say college basketball and the

16:33

NCAA tournament specifically is one

16:35

of the greatest marketing machines that

16:38

this country has in sports.

16:40

Like you can't, I mean, one player can

16:42

hit one shot in one game and be

16:44

on a Wheaties box. Like it has that

16:46

type of power. And you just never

16:48

will forget it. Never. Like literally

16:51

never. So it has that type of power.

16:53

Forget if that player ends up becoming a

16:55

pro. Now they're taking all of that with

16:57

them. And what I would say about the

16:59

NBA, I don't know as much about like

17:01

the nitty gritty of overtime elite, of the

17:03

glee team. Like I don't know like the

17:05

business part of it and the why as

17:07

much. But what I can say is, interestingly

17:09

enough in women's basketball, we always

17:11

had the NCAA tournament. We always

17:13

were able to create a lot

17:15

of popularity. for ourselves in those moments,

17:18

but we had trouble bridging the

17:20

gap from like that moment in time

17:22

to then taking it with us to

17:24

the WMA. Now what we're seeing, especially

17:26

this past year, but it was starting,

17:28

but definitely this past year, is that

17:30

that gap has now been bridged and

17:32

we're seeing like the fruits of that.

17:34

And that's where to your point about

17:36

the NBA cutting itself a little bit

17:38

at the knees or maybe these leagues

17:40

cutting college off a little bit. Now

17:42

you've almost, you guys have almost gone

17:44

backwards and taking away that bridge. And

17:46

the thing about college, that's so special,

17:48

back to the marketing of it all. A, it's

17:51

just a machine in and of itself, but

17:53

I always think, think of it this way.

17:55

In college, people are fans of schools, maybe

17:57

they went there, maybe their parents went

17:59

there, and...