0:00

you were suddenly dropped back in time half

0:02

a billion years ago, could you survive? What

0:05

about 252 million years ago during

0:07

the biggest mass extinction of all

0:09

time? On Season 2 of the

0:11

Eons podcast, we'll explore the most

0:13

common question we're asked by our

0:16

audience. How long could a human

0:18

survive if they were dropped into

0:20

a particular period of the geologic

0:22

past? Surviving deep time is available

0:24

now at youtube .com/eons and wherever

0:26

you get your podcasts. In

0:31

early January of this year, photographer

0:33

Ivan Kaczynski was on vacation about

0:35

a day's drive from his home

0:37

outside Los Angeles. We were

0:40

in Big Sur in a

0:42

very remote area, no cell

0:44

phone reception. One day Ivan

0:46

climbed up a dirt path to the top

0:48

of the hill overlooking the ocean. It's a

0:50

place he's visited for years. And

0:53

it's in that one place where you

0:55

can actually really get cell reception in

0:57

Big Sur and my phone just started

0:59

blowing up. I

1:01

was just getting messages from everybody. Are you okay?

1:03

Are your kids okay? Do you have your pets?

1:06

All these people were messaging me

1:09

because of the fire. It

1:11

was there and then that Ivan

1:13

learned the Palisades fire was wrapping

1:16

itself around his neighborhood back home

1:18

in Topanga Canyon. When

1:23

I first got the messages, I was like, this

1:25

is crazy. I can't believe this is happening. And

1:28

then I started to think about the house

1:30

and what's inside the house. I'm

1:33

a photographer. My wife is a photographer

1:35

as well. And we store

1:37

all our images, like our life's work

1:39

on hard drives. So

1:41

all our hard drives, including all the negatives

1:43

from before the digital days, are

1:46

all stored in the house,

1:49

as well as there were two cats in the

1:51

house. And my

1:53

mom's paintings, my mom's an artist, all

1:55

her paintings are stored in the house.

1:59

So I started thinking about

2:01

I have to get back and get the

2:03

cats, get the hard drives, and then

2:06

get as many as my mom's paintings that I can

2:08

and get them out of the canyon. Everything

2:10

was irreplaceable. Yeah,

2:13

the house is very special.

2:16

It's the house I grew up in

2:18

since the age of seven. My

2:22

mom, as I said, is an artist. She

2:25

put a good amount of

2:27

time and energy into everything

2:29

from every doorknob to every

2:31

faucet to every tile to

2:33

every paint color she chose.

2:35

It's basically like a giant

2:37

art piece. So

2:39

the thought of losing the

2:41

house itself was also terrifying.

2:45

Ivan made the five -hour drive back

2:48

to Topanga Canyon, and when he arrived,

2:50

fortunately, the house was still standing.

2:52

He grabbed his hard drives, his two cats,

2:54

and his mom's paintings. The house

2:57

was spared, but his community in the

2:59

canyon was forever changed by that fire.

3:02

I grew up in the canyon, and I know

3:04

all the back roads. So

3:06

we were able just pop into

3:09

the canyon through the back roads. And

3:11

I came to the top of the

3:13

hill, and I looked

3:15

across the canyon and there was

3:18

this huge plumes of smoke like

3:20

right above my house and all

3:22

these helicopters flying in and out

3:24

and at that point I was

3:26

like wow this is serious I

3:29

bought my camera because I knew

3:31

it was always my back of

3:33

my mind like I'm gonna need

3:35

to document this if I can

3:38

I thought to myself you know

3:40

what this is an historic event

3:43

and I've been a photojournalist my

3:45

whole life and this canyon means

3:47

like so much to me. That's

3:50

when I really made the switch to like

3:53

okay I'm gonna photograph this story. From

3:57

Smithsonian Magazine and PRX Productions, this

4:00

is There's More to That, the

4:02

show that reaches beyond the camera

4:04

to bring to life the stories

4:06

captured by film. I'm

4:08

Ari Daniel. In this episode,

4:10

two Smithsonian photographers document the

4:12

toll of the California wildfires

4:14

on humans and wildlife and

4:17

explore the long -term effects

4:19

on the natural world. Have

4:32

you photographed fires before? Not

4:35

like this, not really. It

4:38

was just a different level. Those

4:40

winds, they were a killer. The

4:43

helicopters were coming over and

4:45

dropping water on the hotspots.

4:48

And slowly but surely with the

4:50

wind dying and those helicopters coming

4:52

over, they won the fight that

4:54

saved our neighborhood. As

4:57

the fires subsided, Ivan kept taking

5:00

photographs. He'd later publish them on

5:02

smithsonianmag .com alongside his own recollections

5:04

from those fateful days. There's a

5:07

road that goes up in the

5:09

Santa Monica Mountains called Payuma. The

5:12

tallest mountain in the area is up there.

5:15

And that area is really special to

5:17

my family. We actually named

5:19

my son Payuma. I

5:21

had to see that. So

5:25

I went up there. It's amazing that they

5:27

didn't lose more houses. Everything

5:30

was completely burnt. It

5:32

just looked like a moonscape. Gray

5:34

black as far as you can

5:36

see with these like demonic black

5:39

bushes that are just like hands

5:41

coming up from the ground. As

5:43

far as you can see. And

5:45

I turned the corner and there was this

5:48

telephone pole like half burnt. Just

5:50

hanging. It was very eerie

5:52

just being up there with nobody up there.

5:55

The whole place was closed. It was

5:57

just me and it was almost dark. And

6:00

yeah, then I came across this telephone

6:02

pole just hanging from the wires. Yeah.

6:08

Yeah. And you took a lot

6:10

of car carcasses. Yeah.

6:13

When I first entered the Palisades,

6:16

I was completely shocked because I

6:18

drove around the corner and basically

6:20

there were cars on each side

6:22

of the road. half

6:24

of them were completely burned out and the

6:26

other half were okay they weren't burned but

6:28

they were all kind of crashed together. What

6:32

happened is like people just panicked

6:34

and left all their cars there

6:36

and then a bulldozer came through

6:38

and had to clear out all

6:41

the cars so the fire trucks

6:43

get through and then the fire

6:45

came through there and burned half

6:47

those cars. That

6:49

was like my introduction to the Palisades. I drove

6:51

in there and that was like the first thing

6:53

I saw. It was shocking. Ivan,

6:55

what does your community look like

6:58

now? You know, I

7:00

really thought that I was

7:03

gonna lose Topanga and I'm

7:05

so grateful that it's pretty

7:07

much is totally intact. The

7:11

park area burned and then some

7:13

people did lose their houses up

7:15

on the Fernwood side. One

7:18

person died. who decide to

7:20

stay. The terrible tragedy

7:22

that some people went through is

7:24

just incomprehensible. So

7:27

where do you and your neighbors go from

7:29

here? I'm sure this

7:31

leaves quite a scar. I

7:34

know a lot of people lost their

7:36

houses and I feel really terrible for

7:38

them. But for

7:40

me, like, to go to the

7:42

point where you're about to lose

7:44

everything and then somehow be saved,

7:47

and have your house and

7:49

have all your belongings and

7:51

your pets safe, I

7:54

think you just feel this immense

7:56

gratitude. It's

7:58

almost like a rebirth, like, oh, wow,

8:00

like, you can't take this for

8:02

granted because you can just go like that. So,

8:05

you know, I feel like it's like

8:07

an intense gratitude that the house didn't

8:09

burn down and I didn't lose everything

8:11

and have to start from scratch. While

8:20

Ivan was documenting the fires farther

8:22

south, Anton Sorokin was watching the fires

8:25

from his home near Santa Cruz, more

8:27

than 300 miles to the north. Like

8:42

Ivan, Anton is a

8:45

journalist and photographer. but

8:47

he's also a wildlife

8:50

biologist. I'm always thinking

8:52

about the animals, everything

8:55

that happens affects them

8:57

in some way or

8:59

other, and especially with

9:02

the extent of the

9:04

wildland -urban interface there,

9:06

where there's so much

9:08

of the city and

9:10

urban regions that are

9:12

kind of enmeshed with

9:14

wildlife habitat. I

9:16

knew that the effects would

9:18

likely be pretty disastrous. Soon

9:21

Anton started seeing reports of mountain

9:23

lions running across roads trying to

9:26

escape the fire. He knew this

9:28

was just the beginning. Really,

9:31

for wildlife, the worst

9:33

of it isn't that initial fire because

9:35

certain animals would have been able to

9:37

shelter or escape, but the aftermath of

9:40

what goes on in coming months and

9:42

even years. So tell

9:44

me about some of those impacts

9:47

on wildlife that you uncovered. The

9:50

immediate impacts of just the

9:52

fires themselves and the flames

9:54

were that not all animals

9:57

can escape that sort of

9:59

thing. Obviously, some larger animals

10:01

are able to move relatively

10:03

quickly. They sense the fire,

10:06

they smell the smoke, and they might be

10:08

able to escape, but anything smaller insects,

10:11

amphibians that may have been out

10:13

and active. If they were on

10:15

the surface, they likely perished in

10:17

the flames. Some animals

10:19

might have been able to go down

10:22

deeper underground and shelter. So

10:24

there would have been some

10:27

animals that perhaps were burrowed

10:29

underground or kind of already

10:32

protected from what was going

10:34

on. Yeah, absolutely. Anything

10:36

that could have made it down more

10:39

than A few inches underground

10:41

was likely insulated from the heat

10:43

itself. And the same thing goes

10:45

for anything in creeks like the

10:47

endangered steelhead trout. They would have

10:49

been able to shelter from the

10:51

actual fire itself in deeper pools.

10:53

That would have been the case

10:55

for western pond turtles potentially. for

10:58

red -legged frogs in the area,

11:00

for newts, aquatic insects. The flames

11:03

themselves wouldn't have been able to

11:05

reach them, but the fire is

11:07

just as damaging in the long

11:09

run. The burnt vegetation, the

11:12

lack of shade as the immediate

11:15

flames themselves. As

11:20

we continue to grapple with the

11:22

human toll of the LA fires,

11:24

understanding their effects on surrounding wildlife

11:27

can provide clues about the health

11:29

of the overall ecosystem and may

11:31

even deliver us some stories of

11:33

resilience. So

11:36

tell me more about the fish

11:38

and how they were impacted and

11:40

how officials dealt with them. The

11:42

two fish that got the most

11:45

attention are the steelhead trout and

11:47

the tidewater gobies. Both these are

11:49

endangered. Some listeners might be

11:51

a little confused hearing that steelhead trout

11:54

are endangered because they are a widespread

11:56

species and they are abundant in some

11:58

regions in the north. However,

12:00

this is the southernmost population segment

12:03

of them, which means that it's

12:05

unique genetically. These steelhead

12:07

trout, they return to the same streams to

12:09

breed from the ocean. And then the young

12:12

grow up in those streams, go back to

12:14

the ocean and come back just like a

12:16

salmon life cycle. And

12:18

so you get in. in

12:20

these separate watershed unique genetic

12:23

lineages of these fish. And

12:26

the ones in Southern California

12:28

are unfortunately all really endangered.

12:31

There are not many viable

12:33

populations left. And

12:36

Topanga Creek was home to quite

12:38

a few of these steelhead trout.

12:40

To save the fish from the

12:43

ash and other debris, conservationists went

12:45

around collecting them from their ponds

12:47

and lakes. After the

12:50

fire burns through, it burns away

12:52

all the vegetation whose roots are

12:54

anchoring the soil in place, as

12:56

well as all the ash from

12:58

the nearby fires just settling on

13:00

the hillsides. And

13:02

the terrain around Topanga Creek is

13:04

fairly steep, so you get a

13:06

lot of runoff. And

13:08

what biologists saw in

13:10

the forecast is that

13:12

rain was expected. And

13:14

they anticipated that this rain was just

13:17

going to wash this slurry of ash

13:19

and mud and chemicals into the water.

13:21

And what would happen is that the

13:23

fish would actually just suffocate. Suffocate

13:26

from the ash coming into contact with

13:28

their gills? Right. And the

13:30

low oxygen content that would be

13:32

in the water as a result.

13:35

And there's been some videos that

13:37

came out. afterwards of rains in

13:39

and around LA of just this

13:41

like current of slush coming down

13:43

the hillsides. I would describe it

13:46

as looking like kind of like

13:48

runny concrete. You

13:50

immediately see why nothing could survive that.

13:52

And so it's kind of a race

13:54

against time to get in there, scoop

13:57

up the fish, get them out before

13:59

the rains wash that in. Biologists needed

14:01

to go back in there, scramble in

14:03

with electrofishing gear with backpacks. Um,

14:06

would you say electro fishing gear?

14:08

Yeah. So electro fishing gear, it

14:10

looks a lot like a scene

14:12

from Ghostbusters. It's this like backpack

14:14

that they wear with the current

14:17

running through it. And there's usually

14:19

a pole and a electric line

14:21

that is put into the water.

14:23

And it briefly stuns these fish,

14:25

allowing for biologists to scoop them

14:27

up with a net, put them

14:29

into buckets and catch them that

14:31

way without harming the fish. Wow.

14:34

I hadn't heard about that before and

14:36

it's clearly safe for the people who

14:39

are administering it. Yeah, you can feel

14:41

a little shock like they wear rubber

14:43

gloves and boots and I've been around

14:45

people that feel a little tingling as

14:48

they're doing it, but it's so low

14:50

of a current that it does not

14:52

affect the people catching the fish. And

14:54

it's probably the best way to catch

14:57

fish when you're limited by time, just

14:59

because it gets everything in an area.

15:01

And that was the case with the

15:04

steelhead trout, which they

15:06

rescued from memory 271 of those,

15:08

which represented, I think, more than

15:10

half the expected population in Topanga

15:12

Creek. And then they went down

15:15

to the lagoon that is at

15:17

the base of Topanga Creek and

15:19

rescued even more tidewater gobies than

15:22

that. And both of those had

15:24

to be relocated. It's

15:26

a little bit uncertain as to when they

15:28

can actually return to the creek because once

15:31

this slush that has run into there, it

15:33

needs to clear out. It just kind of

15:35

lingers, fills in deep pools, and that might

15:37

be a long process. So

15:39

they're currently in a captive facility?

15:42

They went to Fillmore Hatchery. which

15:45

ironically like the Hughes fire broke out

15:47

just a few days later and there

15:49

was some concern that the fish would

15:51

need to be evacuated again from Fillmore

15:53

hatchery. Luckily that wasn't necessary in the

15:55

end. However, since it's going to

15:58

be years potentially until they can return

16:01

to Topanga Creek and their

16:03

natural environment, keeping them in

16:05

a captive setting for that

16:07

whole time isn't ideal because

16:09

there are health problems, kind

16:11

of long -term adaptability to

16:14

the wild situations. So

16:17

what biologists ended up doing is

16:19

they relocated them to another creek

16:21

elsewhere called Arroyohondo Creek where the

16:24

fish are going to live for

16:26

the foreseeable future until Topanga Creek

16:29

is ready to have them translocated

16:31

back into it. And

16:33

the tidewater gobies did go down nearby

16:35

aquarium. It sounds like

16:37

so much effort. I mean,

16:40

for good reason, but what

16:42

an effort to go in,

16:44

relocate these fish and then

16:46

try to sustain them. Yeah,

16:48

it's it's definitely a huge

16:50

effort, but it's worth it.

16:52

Once this genetic lineage blinks

16:54

out, you can't get it

16:56

back. Yeah. to keep

16:58

the population viable and to hopefully restore

17:00

it someday. There's a big culture

17:02

around trout. So hopefully

17:05

maybe someday they'll get restored

17:07

to Panga Creek. Maybe someday

17:09

fishing will be possible recreationally.

17:12

For now, we're kind of a long way

17:14

from there. What about birds? Were they able

17:16

to fly out of the flames? Yeah,

17:19

birds are interesting because there's

17:21

such a wide variety of

17:24

birds and the reactions are

17:27

species dependent. There's going to

17:29

be some species that easily

17:31

would have been able to

17:33

evade the flames, fly away

17:35

over the thermals. And

17:37

there's other birds that would have probably

17:39

had to hunker down, may not have

17:41

been able to escape the flames, ones

17:43

with smaller territories. One

17:46

thing that all birds would

17:48

have been exposed to is

17:50

the smoke and smoke inhalation.

17:52

Of course. And birds are

17:54

particularly sensitive to that. Their

17:57

lungs are really at oxygen

18:00

exchange. They're unlike our lungs,

18:02

which are bi -directional. Bird

18:05

lungs are unidirectional. And

18:07

they have a lot of continuous

18:09

airflow across capillaries. And so they're

18:11

really good at sucking out oxygen.

18:13

But that also means that they're

18:15

really good at sucking out those

18:17

toxins. Oh, that's fascinating. You mean

18:19

they don't breathe out? They breathe

18:21

out, but they don't have... a

18:23

diaphragm like we do. And so

18:25

they have a constant flow of

18:27

air coming in. And it's very

18:29

different than a mammalian system. So

18:31

there's constantly bringing air in. And

18:33

when there's smoke, especially from a

18:35

urban firestorm like this was, there's

18:38

going to be all sorts of

18:40

toxic compounds in there from burning

18:42

plastics, from burning cars, burning houses.

18:44

Yeah. And they're also

18:46

accessing different heights. of

18:48

the air column where I

18:50

imagine particulates and pollution might

18:52

vary. Absolutely. And the

18:54

smoke can carry for such long

18:56

distances. So I talked to Dr.

18:58

Olivia Sanderfoot. who researches

19:01

this and they found effects

19:03

of wildfire on birds removed

19:05

by hundreds of miles from

19:07

where the epicenter the fire

19:09

is. And then obviously I

19:11

would expect the closer you

19:13

get to the epicenter, the

19:15

more inhalation there is. And

19:17

this affects the bird's body

19:19

condition. They're less healthy. And

19:21

right now we are approaching

19:23

bird nesting season. So over

19:25

winter, these birds should be

19:27

fattening up, eating. much

19:29

as possible so that they can have a

19:31

successful nesting season. However, birds

19:34

that were impacted by this that

19:36

might be feeling the after effects

19:38

of smoke inhalation. It's not unlikely

19:40

that they're now going to struggle

19:43

a little bit more downstream of

19:45

this. Will this change their way of

19:47

life? It's hard to imagine

19:50

that it won't change their way

19:52

of life just because there are

19:54

going to be less continuous tracts

19:56

of habitat for them to nest

19:59

in. Birds also

20:01

feed on a variety of

20:03

things from insects to seeds,

20:06

and the insects would have

20:08

been impacted by the fire

20:11

in the months to come.

20:13

It might be hard for

20:15

insectivorous birds to forage enough

20:18

in the burned areas to

20:20

keep. themselves well fed. Same

20:23

with birds that have evolved to

20:25

eat native seeds. There may

20:28

just not be many plants

20:30

producing seed. And historically,

20:33

there were always fires, but we had large

20:36

continuous tracts of habitat. So like one area

20:38

would have burnt, but the adjacent area would

20:40

have been okay, and there would be movement

20:43

back and forth. And nowadays

20:45

with as much development as

20:47

there is as many roads,

20:50

infrastructure, it's all much more

20:52

fragmented and much more difficult

20:54

to move between these fragments

20:56

of habitat for all animals,

20:59

including birds. We often

21:01

think of birds as good dispersers and they are,

21:03

but there are certain species that just don't move

21:05

big distances ever. You mentioned

21:07

insects and I'm wondering what sort

21:09

of impacts did they experience, including

21:11

things like monarch butterflies? Yeah,

21:14

insects would have been very

21:16

affected. So one of the

21:19

groves of trees that burned

21:21

was the second largest overwintering

21:24

site for monarch butterflies in

21:26

the county. And

21:28

there weren't a huge number

21:31

of butterflies there this year.

21:33

However, that said, there are

21:35

not a huge number of

21:38

butterflies in California this year,

21:40

monarch butterflies specifically. So

21:43

any loss is pretty

21:45

serious. The western

21:47

monarch is threatened. There's been a

21:49

huge decline in recent decades. The

21:53

long -lasting question is how bad is

21:55

the burn? Will they be able to

21:57

return and overwinter there in future years?

22:00

Other insects besides butterflies are

22:03

going to be pretty affected as well.

22:05

So there's a lot of pollinators that

22:08

love chaperol habitat. And

22:10

when that burns up, it

22:12

is replaced by non -native

22:14

grasses oftentimes. And

22:16

that's a big concern. What

22:18

is chaperol? Chaperol is a

22:20

shrub. It is a plant

22:22

of the Southwest and it

22:24

forms bushes that are really

22:26

dense up top, but actually

22:28

fairly open along the bottom.

22:30

So there's a lot of

22:32

small animals that have evolved

22:35

to live in that sort

22:37

of habitat. And it describes

22:39

a habitat as well, or

22:41

an ecosystem? Yes, correct.

22:44

So the habitat that

22:46

largely burned is shaperol.

22:49

And shaperol is fire

22:51

adapted, but it

22:54

is fire adapted to burn infrequently,

22:57

but at high intensity. The

23:01

problem after a burn is

23:03

that you get these invasive

23:05

grasses like cheatgrass, which was

23:08

introduced for livestock very long

23:10

ago, but has now kind

23:12

of taken over. And

23:15

it's an annual plant, so

23:17

it regrows every year. and

23:19

it provides more fuel for

23:22

these fires. And

23:24

the problem is that with this grass, it

23:27

is providing such a bounty

23:29

of fuel for the fires

23:32

every year that the habitat

23:34

can burn more frequently than

23:36

the shaperol has a chance

23:39

to recover. And you get

23:41

this loss of shaperol and

23:44

takeover of grass and a

23:46

huge changeover of habitat. The

23:49

species that have evolved their

23:51

various moths, beetles, flies, pollinators,

23:54

once they're gone from an area, they're

23:56

gone for the foreseeable future because they're

23:59

small, they can't move big distances. That

24:02

sounds like some of

24:04

the long -term effects

24:06

will include extirpation of

24:08

certain populations and potential

24:10

extinctions. Yeah, there

24:12

are definitely species

24:14

that are at risk of vanishing from

24:17

an area and not coming back. The

24:20

California red -legged frog, which is

24:22

our largest native frog, was

24:25

gone from the Santa Monica Mountains

24:27

and it was reintroduced about a

24:29

decade ago and it was impacted

24:31

by the Woolsey fire and now

24:33

the Palisades fire has affected areas

24:35

that it could occur in. So

24:37

it's already a battle to have

24:39

it there in the first place

24:41

and then it just keeps getting

24:44

battered by more

24:46

and more obstacles.

24:49

Then there's species which still obviously

24:51

do occur in the area but

24:54

are kind of on the edge.

24:56

There's a lot of endangered invertebrates.

24:58

There are endangered snails that live

25:01

nowhere else in the world except

25:03

in the regions around LA. There's

25:05

endangered trapdoor spiders which live nowhere

25:08

else other than the areas around

25:10

LA. And there's potentially extinction risk.

25:13

Are there any lessons that we

25:15

can learn from these fires on

25:17

how to protect wildlife? Unfortunately,

25:20

all predictions are that we

25:23

are going to keep on

25:25

experiencing fires more and more

25:28

frequently in the face of

25:30

changing climate, in

25:33

unpredictable precipitation. And

25:36

the lessons to be

25:38

taken away are that

25:41

an ounce of prevention

25:43

goes a long way.

25:46

Prevention is easier than

25:48

trying to deal with

25:50

the repercussions, and that

25:53

might involve control of

25:55

invasive vegetation, more

25:58

funds towards studying wildfire,

26:00

which will potentially reveal

26:03

how to better predict

26:05

it and have resources

26:08

on standby. to

26:10

combat it when it breaks out in the

26:12

early stages. Yeah, it's

26:15

hard to say what the lessons

26:17

are other than we need to

26:19

be prepared for more. Tell

26:23

me about the word you used

26:26

in your story, Pyrosine.

26:28

I hadn't heard that before,

26:30

and it felt rather ominous

26:33

to me. What is it?

26:36

The pyrosine is a

26:38

term that some climate

26:40

scientists have begun to

26:42

use and is popping

26:44

up with increasing frequency

26:47

and it is used

26:49

to describe this time

26:51

that we're living in

26:53

where the frequency of

26:55

fires has increased to

26:58

beyond a natural point

27:00

where there's huge fires

27:02

every year and it's

27:04

become almost commonplace.

27:07

But the word pyroscene extends

27:09

beyond California. We're talking about

27:12

a global phenomenon, right? Yes,

27:15

definitely. So as I was writing this

27:17

piece, I was seeing

27:19

reports of massive fires in

27:21

Madagascar. Just last year,

27:24

we had massive fires in

27:26

South America across Peru and

27:28

Bolivia and Brazil. that

27:31

covered huge swaths of

27:34

land and the toll

27:36

of environmental damage is

27:38

immense. And

27:40

every year, there

27:43

are more and more Australia

27:45

experienced massive fires recently. I'm

27:47

not as familiar with the

27:49

footprint of these other places.

27:51

However, I do know that

27:53

these mega fires are a

27:55

global phenomenon. It's not

27:57

just unique to California. It's

28:00

everywhere. And

28:02

we're all going to have to

28:05

learn to live in a world

28:07

where these fires break out and

28:10

also be aware of how our

28:12

wildlife neighbors are faring in response

28:14

to it as well and do

28:17

what we can to help. Anton,

28:20

thank you so much for bringing your

28:22

reporting to us and talking to me

28:25

about the ways in which animals, including

28:27

birds and insects and mammals and reptiles

28:29

and amphibians, are really

28:31

struggling in this new age of

28:33

fire. Thank you. To

28:39

see the photos and read the stories

28:41

from Ivan and Anton that we talked

28:43

about in this episode, head to SmithsonianMag

28:45

.com. We'll also put links in our

28:48

show notes. Thanks for listening

28:50

to There's More to That. You can help

28:52

others find our show by leaving us a

28:54

rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the

28:57

iHeart radio app, and wherever you get

28:59

your podcasts. We'd really appreciate it. From

29:02

the magazine, our team is me,

29:04

Deborah Rosenberg, and Brian Wally. From

29:07

PRX, our team is Jessica Miller,

29:09

Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra

29:11

Lopez -Monsalve, and Edwin Ochoa. The

29:14

executive producer of PRX Productions is

29:16

Jocelyn Gonzalez. Our

29:18

episode artwork is by Emily Langkowitz,

29:20

fact -checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our

29:23

music is from APM Music. I'm

29:25

Ari Daniel. Thanks for listening.