0:00

This series is about real stories

0:02

of domestic and family abuse and

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listener discretion is advised. If you

0:06

need help contact 1-800-respect or check

0:08

the show notes for confidential support.

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This series is produced in collaboration

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with our proud partner Commonwealth Bank

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supporting financial independence through their next

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chapter program. This series was produced

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on what always has been and

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always will be aboriginal land. Was

0:28

this behavior down to him or

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was it down to a need

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for therapy in the ways that

0:34

Thomas Oak Player or was it

0:37

the drugs? Hello, my name is

0:39

Tara Ray Moss. I'm a best-selling

0:41

author, human rights advocate,

0:43

and holistic practitioner and

0:46

the host of this

0:49

award-winning podcast. Welcome to

0:51

season 3 of There's No

0:53

Place Like Home, After She Leaves.

0:57

There's a false narrative that

0:59

once you leave, if you stop.

1:01

Separation is one of the most

1:03

dangerous times for women.

1:06

Even that talk about

1:08

leaving minimizes the situation.

1:10

She's actually fleeing. She's

1:12

escaping. They make it really

1:14

difficult. They drag things out.

1:16

It's a way of winning,

1:18

destroying her, keeping control over

1:20

her. It's manipulative. It's ethically

1:23

and morally corrupt. This episode

1:25

is one of the most

1:27

complex discussions we've ever had

1:29

on this series. It's about the

1:31

intersection of substance dependence, mental

1:33

illness or trauma, and the

1:36

perpetration of abuse. Unlike other episodes

1:38

this season will reflect on how

1:40

this dynamic plays out during an

1:43

abusive relationship as well as after

1:45

it ends. The work to reduce

1:48

domestic and family abuse is

1:50

full of complicated conversations.

1:52

This is well and truly one of them.

1:54

We know a lot of men who use

1:56

violence struggle with metal health and dragon

1:58

alcohol issues go. are contributing factors but

2:01

they are not an excuse for

2:03

the use of violence. Violence is

2:05

always a choice. Philip Ripper is

2:07

the CEO of No to Violence.

2:09

It's the national peak body for

2:11

organizations and practitioners that work with

2:14

men to end their use of

2:16

family violence. It also operates the

2:18

men's referral service for men who

2:20

access support to change their violent

2:22

behaviour. We must understand how those

2:24

factors contribute. And we much recognise

2:26

that so much of the social

2:29

service sector is actually a family

2:31

violence sector. We know that so

2:33

many men who present to drug

2:35

and alcohol services use family violence.

2:37

So many men who use mental

2:39

health services have experienced the family

2:41

violence or may perpetrate family violence.

2:43

By now you'll know Dr Brian

2:46

Sullivan. During his 20 plus years

2:48

running intervention programs for men who

2:50

use violence. He's seen how some

2:52

of them perpetuate their families' trauma.

2:54

Many of these men have grown

2:56

up in households where there's been

2:58

histories of trauma and abuse, sexual

3:01

abuse. They've seen their fathers or

3:03

the father figure in the household

3:05

commit atrocities to women in the

3:07

household, mothers and daughters. This can

3:09

help us to understand how people

3:11

choose to act and what they

3:13

choose to do to those around

3:16

them, but not all of the

3:18

complexities of their behaviors. Not that

3:20

I'm blaming that for their abuse,

3:22

but that's the school or that's

3:24

the family which they've grown up

3:26

in and learned about relationships, largely.

3:28

So they've learned that this is

3:31

what they think men do and

3:33

men are. It's gotten them what

3:35

they want and they've gotten away

3:37

with it. So when you get

3:39

those three things together, that is

3:41

a pathway to the development of

3:43

an abuse of male, I think.

3:45

These are some of the so-called

3:48

reinforcing factors for gender-based domestic and

3:50

family violence. Here's our watch CEO,

3:52

Patty Kinnersley. The use of alcohol,

3:54

alcohol and other drugs can mean

3:56

to health, poverty, things like that.

3:58

that can amplify or make worse

4:00

violence. Work needs to be done

4:03

on them and we identify that

4:05

in our key documents and there

4:07

are experts who are doing that

4:09

work but we know that the

4:11

thing is we really need to

4:13

challenge are those gender

4:15

drivers, stereotypes, sexism and disrespect.

4:18

So how do we do that? How

4:20

do we understand but not excuse?

4:22

It's been years but Katrina Harrison

4:24

still can't stand the smell of

4:27

Jim Beam. And that means Sean.

4:29

Alcohol that you can buy it,

4:31

can't stand it. Almost a decade

4:34

ago, Katrina escaped her ex-partner. A

4:36

man will call Cameron, although that's

4:38

not his real name. He went

4:40

to jail for some of what

4:43

he did. He's already served his

4:45

sentence. He's out now. His behaviour

4:47

was like nothing Katrina

4:49

had ever experienced. All

4:51

the controlling, the anger, the alcohol

4:53

abuse, and the drug abuse. There are

4:56

a few things you should know about

4:58

Katrina. She's a proud Palawa woman, the

5:00

matriarch of her family, and a member

5:03

of the Victim Survivors Advisory Council

5:05

that advises the Victorian state

5:07

government on law reform. Katrina

5:10

also lives with an acquired brain

5:12

injury. That's because two years ago,

5:14

well after she had left Cameron, she

5:16

had a stroke. It's another

5:18

thing she holds Cameron responsible

5:21

for. I do believe the

5:23

non-fatal strangulation strangulation. We know that

5:25

when alcohol is involved

5:27

violence can be more

5:29

frequent and more intense. This

5:31

was the case for Cameron

5:34

too. His excuse all the time

5:36

is he got too drunk and

5:38

he'd black out. And that seemed

5:40

like was okay, him to

5:42

do what he did to

5:44

me. They're just full of

5:46

excuses. They're just one excuse

5:48

after the other. They met at

5:50

a nightclub. At first they dated.

5:52

Cameron flattered her, courted her.

5:55

Then once she was invested,

5:57

once he'd asked her kids to call

5:59

him dad. His mask began to

6:01

slip. It's a common example

6:03

of the cycle of violence

6:05

some abusers exhibit in their

6:07

relationships. I remember coming home

6:09

one day for my lunch

6:11

break because I was working

6:13

at the time. I'm home

6:15

and he'd been drinking moonshine. And

6:18

yeah, he saw my look

6:20

off clean house and then

6:22

smashed it up, smashed grass

6:24

and horrible, just horrible. Can

6:26

alcohol or drugs on their own

6:28

cause a person to use

6:30

violence to become abusive? Based

6:32

on available evidence, the answer

6:34

is no. However, Australia's National

6:36

Research Organization for Women's Safety, Anros,

6:39

for short, notes that there

6:41

is a solid and persistent

6:43

connection between domestic abuse and

6:45

alcohol. It estimates that between

6:47

23 and 65% of all

6:49

family violence incidents reported to police

6:51

involve alcohol. Assistant Commissioner Lauren

6:53

Callaway leads the family violence,

6:55

sexual assault and child abuse

6:57

responses with Victoria Police. The

6:59

data matches her experience. We see

7:01

alcohol abuse being present in

7:03

roughly about 25% of family

7:05

violence incidents. Now it's not

7:07

always just the perpetrator. It

7:09

might be other family members who

7:12

might be impacted by alcohol

7:14

or drugs. We're very tuned

7:16

to that. It's one of

7:18

the factors that we... collect

7:20

information on when we do

7:22

our 39 question risk assessment. Assistant

7:24

Commissioner Callaway says intoxication or

7:26

substance use can make it

7:28

more difficult for police to

7:30

determine who is at risk

7:32

in that moment. Certainly if someone

7:35

severely impacted by alcohol it

7:37

does impair their ability to

7:39

answer questions. Police officers turning

7:41

up at a family violence

7:43

internet often don't have both parties

7:45

still rare when we arrive.

7:47

So it's our job to

7:49

gather information at the scene

7:51

at the time but also

7:53

to do the follow-up inquiries and

7:56

that may include causing something

7:58

until that person is able

8:00

to answer questions, we locate

8:02

them, if they're having a

8:04

mental health episode, then not

8:06

everything has to be decided right

8:08

then and there. This is

8:10

where their training comes in.

8:12

We certainly train our police

8:14

officers to approach the situation,

8:16

look at what's before them, and

8:19

consider who is most in

8:21

need of protection in this

8:23

situation, who is most at

8:25

risk of being harmed. Now

8:27

that wouldn't necessarily always align with

8:29

who's been drinking alcohol or

8:31

who's aggressive. So our expectation

8:33

on our police officers is

8:35

here, they'll note those sorts

8:37

of things, but it's legitimate to

8:40

work through the nuances of

8:42

what's going on. Officers are

8:44

also responding to new ways

8:46

perpetration occurs. In 2023, for

8:48

the first time ever, police

8:50

in Victoria received more domestic violence

8:52

reports about former partners than

8:54

current ones. What I think

8:56

has got huge relevance to

8:58

it is the presence of

9:00

social media and smartphones and the

9:02

ability of people, once the

9:04

relationship is over, to actually

9:06

continue to have quite the

9:08

basic contact with the person.

9:10

The drug use, the alcohol use,

9:13

the control, Cameron's constant inexplicable

9:15

mood changes, all of it

9:17

destabilised Katrina's mind, her children

9:19

and her home. No one

9:21

could imagine. Who does this?

9:23

He does all the betrothing and

9:25

like chases you. And modding

9:27

could be part of their

9:29

life and then just all

9:31

of a sudden. It's like

9:33

a real jekyll and hide attitude.

9:36

One minute they're absolutely beautiful

9:38

and the next minute they're

9:40

just, you don't know the

9:42

person that you're with. You

9:44

really don't. From his vast experience

9:46

facilitating men's behavior change group

9:48

programs, Dr. Sullivan knows that

9:50

drugs, alcohol or any other

9:52

contributing factor to domestic or

9:54

family violence are just that, contributing

9:57

factors. They don't cause the

9:59

violence. using violence is a

10:01

choice. Many men on group, as much

10:03

as maybe 50% may have drug and

10:05

alcohol issues, but as I say to men

10:07

on group, there's many men who drink

10:09

and do drugs who aren't choosing

10:12

to be violent. Here's how he

10:14

responds when men in his programs

10:16

claim that alcohol or substances made

10:18

them violent. Alcohol and drugs

10:20

aren't excuse for driving under the

10:23

influence. You'll get charged if you

10:25

drive under the influence. You can't

10:27

say, oh, officer, I'm an alcoholic.

10:29

You can't charge me because I'm

10:31

not in control. No, if you're

10:33

an alcoholic, you still choose to

10:36

drive a car. You'll get booked.

10:38

If you're an alcoholic and you

10:40

choose to be violent to someone,

10:42

you should be charged with

10:44

domestic violence. Cameron continued to

10:47

harass Katrina and her children

10:49

after she ended the relationship.

10:52

It was always talking. I can

10:54

remember he followed me in the car

10:56

one time and ran my car and

10:58

ran my car. They want to wear

11:00

you down, where you just go, yep,

11:02

I'll go back. And you don't sleep.

11:04

You never sleep. This kind of harassment

11:07

can have a different impact

11:09

on children than it does adults,

11:11

because it has a greater

11:13

potential to formatively influence

11:15

how they understand the

11:17

world. Yet another negative impact

11:19

of a man's choice to perpetrate abuse.

11:22

different from adults. They

11:24

have very limited opportunities to

11:26

connect with the world compared to those

11:28

of adults who have had years of

11:31

life to know how they feel and

11:33

what their intentions are and what their

11:35

motivations are, but a child's life,

11:37

their inner life in the world

11:39

is inextricably linked to the quality

11:41

of their relationships with their

11:43

significant adults. So when they're

11:46

deeply affected by trauma or

11:48

family violence in connection with

11:50

an adult. It is a

11:52

very different, a very vulnerable

11:54

and a very violating experience

11:57

for them. Listeners will remember

11:59

Miranda. not her real name,

12:01

from a previous episode. Violence

12:03

was part of her upbringing.

12:06

I grew up the youngest

12:08

of three daughters and in

12:10

my family home there was

12:13

violence perpetrated by my dad

12:15

which was physical and verbal.

12:17

There was also alcoholism and

12:19

this was present in a

12:22

lot of our extended family

12:24

as well. It just seems

12:26

to be the norm. Miranda's

12:29

experience is not uncommon. If

12:31

a child is witnessing a

12:33

father abusing or hurting or

12:35

threatening their mother or another

12:38

member of the family, then

12:40

it becomes overwhelming for them.

12:42

They lose the sense of

12:45

any safe adults because when

12:47

this violence is happening, it's

12:49

frightening and they are often

12:51

left alone. They are often

12:54

finding places to hide. This

12:56

kind of trauma can increase

12:58

the likelihood that a child

13:01

becomes either a victim or

13:03

a perpetrator of violence. For

13:05

Miranda, this was true. With

13:07

her fractured understanding of a

13:10

healthy adult relationship, Justin used

13:12

predatory behaviors to build trust

13:14

that she didn't immediately see

13:17

as warning signs. Justin isn't

13:19

his real name. When I

13:21

entered this relationship and started

13:23

to experience similar things. such

13:26

as controlling behaviour, verbal outbursts,

13:28

pressure to behave in a

13:30

certain way, gas sliding, jealousy,

13:33

the isolation, but then followed

13:35

by the love bombing, I

13:37

didn't really see it as

13:39

red flags at the time.

13:42

I saw it as something

13:44

that was a comfortable place,

13:46

something that was really familiar

13:49

to me because that's how

13:51

I thought dynamics were in

13:53

relationships. Since then Miranda has

13:55

gotten that support. This pattern

13:58

is something Maria recognizes. Maria

14:00

isn't her real name and we've

14:02

changed her voice. A few years ago,

14:05

she met a man who we're going to

14:07

call Luka. We've changed his

14:09

name too. So when we first met,

14:11

we very quickly got to know

14:13

each other in our backgrounds. We

14:16

come from the same cultural

14:18

backgrounds and we both left. Our

14:20

place at birth, we did the

14:23

same conflict. We had that in

14:25

common. So that kind of bonded

14:27

us. In that kind of bonded

14:29

us. I'm not sure to call it

14:32

exactly trauma bonding but our

14:34

experiences from early childhood and

14:36

very similar. We had an along wing,

14:38

a number of things in common and

14:40

I think that was a big part of

14:42

us kicking off so passionately and

14:44

quickly and coming to such a

14:46

fast understanding really on the basis

14:48

of what we had this similar experience.

14:51

At first his drug use

14:53

didn't raise any red flags

14:55

but as their relationship got

14:57

serious quickly it did. One

14:59

morning Maria couldn't sleep. She

15:01

got up early before sunrise

15:03

and found out in the game.

15:05

The issue was the frequency and

15:07

the usage and the length he

15:09

would go to secure his supply.

15:11

It started to strike me

15:14

as problematic when it was

15:16

always in the house. One morning

15:18

Maria couldn't sleep. She got

15:20

up early before sunrise and

15:22

found that Luca was using drugs

15:25

before work. That was when I

15:27

realized that this was playing a

15:29

role in our our performance and that

15:31

it wasn't, he always sort of

15:34

presented as an escape or release

15:36

for other streets that he was

15:38

faced with being that helped. But

15:41

when I realized that he wasn't

15:43

allowing himself a single moment to

15:45

be sober and that probably the

15:47

ups and downs of getting iron

15:50

and that being without were really

15:52

dictated either. Yeah. This was how

15:54

he processed stress. and Maria says

15:56

the so-called craving period which he

15:58

felt when the drugs were wearing

16:00

off was the most dangerous for

16:02

her. He would get sweaty and

16:04

his eyes would become a bit

16:06

crazed and he'd become agitated visibly.

16:09

The come down was the biggest

16:11

problem and the and they're going

16:13

without and so once he realized

16:15

that it's used with problematic and

16:17

he started on lands to take

16:19

her off or or cut back

16:21

primarily for that us to do,

16:23

then we'd get into this situation

16:25

where He'd get agitated and I'd

16:27

sort of be walking around on

16:29

H-shells and then something would happen

16:31

or someone would chase something or

16:33

or we'd be faced with another

16:36

external problem and he'd just sort

16:38

of lose it. He would claim

16:40

he needed drugs to not abuse

16:42

her. It happened if she'd say

16:44

that we would be in the

16:46

middle of an argument and he

16:48

would sort of put his hands

16:50

up and stop before it escalated

16:52

to abuse and be like, I

16:54

need to smoke. And then we'd

16:56

be able to talk. And I...

16:58

It started by the narrative of

17:01

the drugs that changed him. And

17:03

when he did, he'd blame his

17:05

behavior on drugs or trauma. He

17:07

did that a lot. So when

17:09

he was basically abusive with me,

17:11

and we would talk about it

17:13

afterwards, try and resolve it, trying

17:15

to be gone, there were a

17:17

lot of moments where excuses would

17:19

come up. It happened a few

17:21

times that we would confront him

17:23

about something he had done, and

17:25

then... It was almost like, I'm

17:28

not sure how it happened, but

17:30

suddenly we were talking about some

17:32

sad story from his childhood. After

17:34

the abuse worsened, Maria convinced Luca

17:36

to move out. He promised he

17:38

would change, he would get treatment,

17:40

and she felt like he deserved

17:42

the chance to show her he

17:44

could do better. At the time,

17:46

it felt like it was worth

17:48

sticking around to see if that

17:50

old person would come back, you

17:52

know, was this behaviour down to...

17:55

Was it down to the situation

17:57

or was it down to... need

17:59

therapy and you know the ways

18:01

that Tom so player or was

18:03

it the drugs or did he just

18:05

do a really good job of

18:07

being really nice and fast six

18:10

months that there were all these

18:12

questions playing through my mind. Luca

18:14

promised he would change and it

18:16

was a hollow promise and part

18:18

of the cycle of violence. Remorse,

18:20

apologies, promises, then more violence. I guess

18:23

the easiest way to describe it is

18:25

that we broke up in stages. He

18:27

obviously... didn't want to break up. So

18:30

that turned very quickly into a bit of

18:32

negotiation, like, well, I'll move out and I'll

18:34

be a rehab, and we could talk about

18:36

the rest of our relationship, but of

18:38

course, I went in for a few, and I

18:41

clearly got work to do, so he turned

18:43

it into a negotiation from the beginning.

18:45

He stayed sober while he was dealing with

18:47

a separate charge not related to their

18:49

relationship. So he did go sober after

18:51

a few weeks, and we were waiting

18:53

for him to get through the label

18:55

proceedings, and it didn't the last. Soon

18:58

as he secured his freedom and was

19:00

no longer into a watchful life, lawyers

19:02

and courts. He went right back to

19:04

doing what he was doing. It was

19:07

a very well-played, where he always

19:09

entered around drug treatment. So there

19:11

was really that idea, that narrative,

19:13

which it's not me, it's the drugs. It

19:16

did keep me there for longer. It absolutely

19:18

did. When she realized Lucas'

19:20

promises were hollow, she gave up any

19:23

hope things would get better for them. She

19:25

cut off contact. He absolutely...

19:27

did not want to stop anything.

19:29

He really just wanted to

19:31

keep me. He just wanted to

19:34

do whatever he needed to keep

19:36

his life comfortable the way

19:38

it was. Like Maria, Katrina

19:40

also made another difficult decision

19:42

to keep herself and the family

19:44

safe. She knows it was the

19:47

right one, but it still came at

19:49

a cost. My kids not only lost

19:51

their father, they lost their

19:53

aunties, uncles. Yeah, then and then

19:55

pop at the time. Yeah, so it's

19:58

really hard on the key. The

20:00

very limitedly lost too. Domestic

20:02

and family abuse happens in

20:04

every society, every culture, but

20:06

the individual impact is different

20:08

depending on your context. Katrina

20:10

felt a particular kind of

20:12

guilt separating from Cameron because

20:14

of the value of community

20:16

in her own culture. I

20:18

think because the community as

20:20

those family are reiterated, you

20:22

really have this perception like

20:24

the same reality movie. Yeah,

20:26

you gotta keep your family

20:28

together. It doesn't matter at

20:30

what cost. Because family is

20:32

everything. Family comes birth. And

20:34

that's dropped into you from

20:37

such a young age. Family

20:39

comes birth. She credits police

20:41

in Regional Victoria as her

20:43

biggest support. They saw her

20:45

for what she was, a

20:47

woman in need who deserves

20:49

support to escape. Maria made

20:51

the decision not to report

20:53

her ex-partner to police. Katrina

20:55

felt it was important. He

20:57

choked me. He hit me

20:59

with full sticks. I remember

21:01

one time, I think the

21:03

six to eight police rocked

21:05

up and he just jumped

21:07

fences to get away from

21:09

it. And the police couldn't

21:11

find him. Maria made the

21:13

decision not to report her

21:15

ex-partner to police. Katrina felt

21:17

it was important that she

21:19

did. The decision to involve

21:22

law enforcement is a deeply

21:24

personal one. I do encourage

21:26

you to report. I know,

21:28

especially with aboriginal people, they

21:30

have issues with police. Don't

21:32

let this be an issue

21:34

that holds you back. It

21:36

worth so much more and

21:38

your life is worth so

21:40

much more. Because at the

21:42

end of the day, that's

21:44

what you got to think

21:46

about. This could kill you.

21:48

Assistant Commissioner Lauren Callaway says

21:50

more people than ever are

21:52

reporting to police in her

21:54

state of Victoria. This has

21:56

resulted in a rise of

21:58

officer callouts to so-called incidents.

22:00

which are calls requesting police

22:02

assistance due to domestic and

22:04

family abuse. What we do

22:07

know is that family violence

22:09

incidents increased 6% on the

22:11

previous year. I've visited up until

22:14

June 2024, so we went

22:16

to 98,816 incidents during that

22:18

period. I think it was 95,000

22:20

the year before and certainly when

22:22

I came into the role. We

22:24

were sitting at about 85,000 now,

22:26

that was four years ago, so

22:28

you're seeing the notice rise exponentially

22:31

every year. We estimated at about

22:33

40% of a frontline police officer's

22:35

job. She suspects increased awareness

22:37

is behind the numbers. There's

22:39

more of it happening than where

22:41

it was happening in fine, 10, 15

22:43

years ago. I don't think it's a

22:46

shift in prevalence. What I believe is

22:48

that the community has shifted to have

22:50

a greater understanding now. around what is

22:52

family violence. We don't think of

22:54

it in just the traditional physical

22:57

assault form. We know that it involves

22:59

all different dynamics of relationships. So

23:01

what I take confidence from is

23:03

that people have more confidence to

23:05

come forward and report to police.

23:07

So that's why the number keeps going

23:09

up. And if that's the goal, then I'm

23:11

happy to see those increases. Professor

23:14

Michael Salter is a researcher

23:16

and expert in gender-based violence.

23:18

He believes increased awareness should also

23:20

lead to stronger regulations around alcohol.

23:22

The fact is that the more

23:25

alcohol there is in the community, the

23:27

more domestic violence there is. In the

23:29

same way that the more cigarettes there

23:31

are in the community, the more cancer

23:33

there is. The other point is we can

23:35

regulate alcohol and we can regulate

23:37

cancer. It's also true that the more misogyny

23:39

there is in the community, the more

23:41

violence there is. So there's a good

23:44

argument for attitude change. The issue is

23:46

we can't regulate attitudes attitudes. While others

23:48

will debate and discuss the

23:51

regulations, changing attitudes is the

23:53

work Katrina continues to do. She

23:55

describes the aboriginal women in her

23:57

life as warrior women and hopes that

24:00

But those listening will remember

24:02

their power. Where the highest

24:04

indicate is to experience it.

24:06

But it's also normally by

24:08

non aboriginal men. And if

24:10

you are getting disrespected regardless,

24:12

aboriginal non-amboriginal, it's not right.

24:14

You don't need to be

24:16

treated like that. You know

24:18

your family wouldn't watch to

24:20

be treated like that. Her

24:22

life looks different now, after

24:24

escaping abuse. But the one

24:26

thing that hasn't changed is

24:28

her commitment to victim survivors

24:30

and her faith in them.

24:32

You can be anything that

24:34

you want to be, despite

24:36

your life. Don't let anyone

24:38

tell you anything different. You're

24:40

strong with our ancestors' shoulders,

24:43

which gives us strength to

24:45

carry on. So please, please,

24:47

be exactly what you want

24:49

to be. Wherever that journey

24:51

takes you in life, I

24:53

really do wish everyone the

24:55

best. Next time on There's

24:57

No Place Like Home. One

24:59

thing I really try to

25:01

reinforce with men is that

25:03

this program is not punishment.

25:05

It's opportunity. You're free to

25:07

take this opportunity or not.

25:09

There's No Place Like Home

25:11

is an FW podcast in

25:13

collaboration with our proud partner

25:15

Commonwealth Bank. who are committed

25:17

to helping end financial abuse

25:19

through Combank Next Chapter. No

25:21

matter who you bank with,

25:23

if you're worried about your

25:26

finances because of domestic and

25:28

family violence, you can contact

25:30

Combank's Next Chapter team. Contact

25:32

them on 1-800-2-347- within Australia

25:34

or visit Combank.com.au/Next Chapter. If

25:36

you need help or advice,

25:38

you can call 1-800-respect. Please

25:40

check the show notes for

25:42

additional numbers for confidential support.

25:44

If you enjoyed this podcast

25:46

please rate and review. It

25:48

helps these important stories reach

25:50

more people's ears. For more

25:52

information about... But no

25:54

place like

25:56

home or to

25:58

join the

26:00

movement, head to

26:02

futurewomen .com. This

26:05

episode was produced by

26:07

Sally by Sally Kate Kate Geraldine

26:09

Bilston Bilston and Jamila by Dave

26:11

Collins, artwork by Patty Andrews.