0:00

Okay, we got a standby.

0:02

Three, two, one. The thinking

0:04

atheist. It's not a person. It's

0:06

a symbol. An idea. The population

0:09

of atheists in this

0:11

country is going through

0:13

the rule. Rejecting faith.

0:16

Pursuing knowledge. Challenging the sacred.

0:18

If I tell the truth, it's

0:20

because I tell the truth. Not

0:22

because I put my hand on

0:24

a book and made a wish.

0:26

And working together. For a more

0:28

rational world. Take the risk

0:30

of thinking for yourself. Much

0:33

more happiness, truth, beauty, and

0:35

wisdom will come to you that

0:37

way. Assume nothing. Question

0:40

everything. And start thinking.

0:42

This is the

0:44

Thinking Atheist podcast

0:46

hosted by San

0:49

Andrews. So much talk

0:51

about politics and religion.

0:54

I want to come

0:56

back to just religion, having

0:59

come out of a fundamental

1:01

faith. and having been co-hosting

1:03

on the line network where

1:06

we talk to a lot

1:08

of theists and they bring

1:11

their proofs for God or

1:13

at the very least they're

1:15

trying to sow doubt about

1:18

atheism I think one of

1:20

my not favorite but one

1:23

of my hashtag favorite arguments

1:25

is why do you hate God or

1:27

why do you say there could

1:29

be no God which is not

1:31

what atheism is not what atheism

1:33

is I'm struck by how often

1:36

apologists misrepresent what atheism means.

1:38

You know, I do not

1:40

believe in God. Seems pretty

1:43

basic. But I think it's in

1:45

the interest of a lot of

1:47

apologists to do that very thing.

1:49

And over the last, let's see,

1:51

I started the website in 2009.

1:54

Holy shit, what is that? Sixteen

1:56

years, I've had a lot of

1:58

these discussions. And, you

2:00

know, there are some arguments

2:02

for God that make me

2:05

crazy. And I know they

2:07

make you crazy too, and

2:09

I want to hear the

2:11

ones that make you want

2:13

to stick your head through

2:15

sheet rock. The stuff that

2:17

just, you're like, how could

2:20

you even bring that to

2:22

the table? It's not that

2:24

the apologist hasn't heard it

2:26

before, because I know this

2:28

is fresh material for a

2:30

lot of people. And I

2:33

mean, the stuff that you're

2:35

like, this is not even

2:37

an argument. Makes no sense.

2:39

Like, prove there is no

2:41

God. Which to me is

2:43

the equivalent of prove the

2:46

universe doesn't exist in a

2:48

giant snow globe Which sits

2:50

on the mantle of a

2:52

cosmic space octopus Right prove

2:54

that you know, that's not

2:56

exactly how proof works. You've

2:59

got the well, I'm not

3:01

a monkey my grandfather wasn't

3:03

a monkey. You know, I'm

3:05

not a primate. I may

3:07

be a mammal, but I'm

3:09

not an animal I heard

3:11

that would recently I heard

3:14

the story about Charles Darwin

3:16

having a deathbed conversion. Have

3:18

you heard that story? Oh,

3:20

Darwin wrote on The Origin

3:22

of Species, sure, but at

3:24

the very end of his

3:27

life when he knew he

3:29

was facing the music, he

3:31

had a conversion. And there's

3:33

a whole narrative. Somebody came

3:35

and visited him at his

3:37

deathbed and he had kind

3:40

of a... an epiphany. And

3:42

his heart changed and he

3:44

opened his mind and his

3:46

spirit to Jesus Christ and

3:48

he became a believer. Bull

3:50

shit, that never happened. It's

3:52

like that story about Einstein

3:55

in the college classroom. Hang

3:57

on, let me see if

3:59

I can find that. This

4:01

is unplanned. Einstein classroom God

4:03

story. I'll bet it pops

4:05

right up. Albert Einstein humiliates

4:08

an atheist professor. Here's how

4:10

the story goes and this

4:12

has been circulating for more

4:14

than 20 years. years. Does

4:16

evil exist? The university professor

4:18

challenged his students with this

4:21

question, did God create everything

4:23

that exists? A student bravely

4:25

replied, yes he did. God

4:27

created everything, the professor asked,

4:29

yes sir, the student replied.

4:31

The professor answered, If God

4:33

created everything, then God created

4:36

evil since evil exists, and

4:38

according to the principle that

4:40

our works define who we

4:42

are, then God is evil.

4:44

The student became quiet before

4:46

such an answer. The professor

4:49

was quite pleased with himself

4:51

and boasted to the students

4:53

that he had proven once

4:55

more that the Christian faith

4:57

was a myth. Another student

4:59

raised his hand and said,

5:02

Can I ask you a

5:04

question, Professor? Of course, replied

5:06

the professor. The student stood

5:08

up and asked, Professor, does

5:10

cold exist? What kind of

5:12

question is this? Of course

5:15

it exists. Have you ever

5:17

been cold? The students snickered

5:19

at the young man's question.

5:21

I love the hero narrative,

5:23

right? You got the evil

5:25

snickering professor and the noble

5:27

hero student. The young man

5:30

replied. In fact, sir, cold

5:32

does not exist. According to

5:34

the laws of physics, what

5:36

we consider cold is in

5:38

reality the absence of heat.

5:40

Every body or object is

5:43

susceptible to study when it

5:45

has or transmits energy, and

5:47

heat is what makes a

5:49

body or matter have or

5:51

transmit energy. Absolute zero minus

5:53

460 degrees Fahrenheit is the

5:56

total absence of heat. all

5:58

matter becomes inert and incapable

6:00

of reaction at that temperature.

6:02

Cold does not exist. We

6:04

have created this word to

6:06

describe how we feel if

6:08

we have no heat. The

6:11

student continued, Professor, does darkness

6:13

exist? The professor responded, of

6:15

course it does. The student

6:17

replied, once again you are

6:19

wrong, sir. Darkness does not

6:21

exist either. Darkness is in

6:24

reality the absence of light.

6:26

Light we can study, but

6:28

not darkness. In fact, we

6:30

can use Newton's prism to

6:32

break white light into many

6:34

colors and study the various

6:37

wavelengths of each color. You

6:39

cannot measure darkness. A simple

6:41

ray of light can break

6:43

into a world of darkness

6:45

and illuminate it. How can

6:47

you know how dark a

6:50

certain space is? You measure

6:52

the amount of light present.

6:54

Isn't this correct? Darkness is

6:56

a term used by man

6:58

to describe what happens when

7:00

there is no light present.

7:02

Finally, the young man asked

7:05

the professor, sir, does evil

7:07

exist? Now uncertain, the professor

7:09

responded, of course, as I

7:11

have already said, we see

7:13

it every day, it's in

7:15

the daily example of man's

7:18

inhumanity to man. It is

7:20

in the multitude of crime

7:22

and violence everywhere in the

7:24

world. These manifestations are nothing

7:26

else but evil." To this

7:28

the student replied, evil does

7:31

not exist, sir, or at

7:33

least it does not exist

7:35

unto itself. Evil is simply

7:37

the absence of God. It

7:39

is just like darkness and

7:41

cold. A word that man

7:43

has created to describe the

7:46

absence of God. God did

7:48

not create evil. Evil is

7:50

not like faith or love

7:52

that exists just as does

7:54

light and heat. Evil is

7:56

the result of what happens

7:59

when man does not have

8:01

God's love present in his

8:03

art. It's like the cold

8:05

that comes when there is

8:07

no heat or darkness that

8:09

comes when there is no

8:12

light. And the professor sat

8:14

down. The young student's name

8:16

was Albert Einstein. This entire

8:18

story is a big. pile

8:20

of crap. It never happened.

8:22

And yet it has been

8:25

shared in Christian circles for

8:27

I don't know how long

8:29

and many people who during

8:31

his life his contemporaries were

8:33

asserting that Albert Einstein was

8:35

somehow a Christian he came

8:37

forward and he said no

8:40

it's a lie what you've

8:42

been hearing about my religious

8:44

beliefs right I think he

8:46

was more of a Spinoza's

8:48

God kind of a thing

8:50

it's really more about the

8:53

cosmos and science and he

8:55

was not a Christian and

8:57

yet you know they want

8:59

to brandish Einstein as if

9:01

you know this is a

9:03

gotcha well and even if

9:06

Einstein had been a believer

9:08

and a brilliant scientist would

9:10

that have proved God. Scientists

9:12

X believes in God, therefore

9:14

God exists. This is not

9:16

how science works. There's the

9:18

God of the gaps. There

9:21

are gaps in our knowledge.

9:23

We don't know things. What

9:25

happened before the Big Bang?

9:27

I mean, it could have

9:29

been... specific deity with a

9:31

proper name who then had

9:34

anonymous primitive men write a

9:36

66 book book which talked

9:38

about garden nudists and talking

9:40

reptiles and 900 year old

9:42

people and giants and sea

9:44

monsters and those types of

9:47

things. One of my favorite

9:49

parts of the Bible is

9:51

in the book of Revelation.

9:53

The story about the flying

9:55

dragon riding. Actually, it's a

9:57

seven-headed dragon riding space prostitute.

10:00

Oh yeah, a horror Babylon. Totally

10:03

reasonable to say that because

10:05

we don't know, even if there

10:07

was a before, I was talking

10:09

to astrophysicist Dr. Dan Batcheldor about

10:12

space time, which is just literally

10:14

a skull melting thing to get

10:16

into, especially for lay people like

10:19

us. But if space time didn't

10:21

exist until the moment of the

10:23

singularity, then time may not have

10:26

been a thing. There may not

10:28

have been. a before, right? There

10:31

may not have been anything before

10:33

the Big Bang. I don't

10:35

know. It's a lot to take

10:37

in, but to say, well,

10:39

we don't know, therefore, gee. It

10:42

just makes me crazy. Anyway, I

10:44

want to know what your... Pet

10:46

Peab arguments are for the

10:48

existence of a God, it

10:51

can be any God or

10:53

God's plural or spirits or

10:55

ghosts or whatever. And I

10:57

know you got some, so

10:59

this is the placed event

11:01

as we just spend some

11:03

time sort of refocusing, getting

11:05

a little bit more away

11:07

from politics and Christian nationalism

11:09

today, and getting into theology

11:11

and the apologists. I've got

11:13

9-0-1 on the phone. Hi,

11:15

who's this? Hi, this is Colin.

11:17

How are you doing, Seth? Is it

11:19

Colin? Yes, sir. Oh, welcome

11:21

to the show. Thanks for calling.

11:24

What's on your mind? My

11:26

girlfriend, she did like a theology

11:28

class. There's a way after we

11:30

broke up and I just happened

11:33

to see it. And she had to

11:35

post videos on YouTube of

11:37

her giving sermons. And one of

11:40

the ones that she gave was

11:42

that once upon a time, there

11:44

was a shepherd with... a whole flock

11:46

of sheep and every night he would bring

11:48

them all back into the barn, but

11:50

there was always one that would wander

11:52

off. And day after day, he had to go

11:54

find that sheep and pick it up and carry

11:57

it back and put it back in the fold.

11:59

So one day... He gets tired of doing

12:01

that. So he goes out and

12:03

he finds the sheep and he

12:05

takes his big heavy staff and

12:07

he just breaks its leg and

12:09

then he carries it back home

12:11

and he fixes it up and

12:13

he did that not to hurt

12:15

the sheep, but because he loves

12:17

the sheep and that's why God

12:19

loves bad things happen to us.

12:21

And when I heard that, it

12:23

took me about 20 minutes of

12:25

just sitting there outside smoking a

12:27

cigarette. I don't even smoke anymore,

12:29

I just keep a pack just

12:31

in case or times like that.

12:33

It absolutely broke me. I think

12:35

this is a slave celebrating

12:37

their chains. He only hurts

12:39

me because he loves me.

12:42

This is a faith-building exercise.

12:44

Pain in this life, bliss

12:46

in the next. The more

12:48

suffering that happens for God

12:50

here on terra firma, the

12:52

greater my reward will be

12:54

in eternity. And I also

12:56

think that people are great

12:58

at creating narratives where the

13:00

nonsensical makes sense to them.

13:02

The tornado hit more Oklahoma

13:04

and 45 people were killed

13:06

including a dozen children. Well,

13:08

maybe it was because... Oklahoma

13:10

has too many of those

13:12

icky gay people. Or maybe

13:14

God is using our light

13:17

and momentary affliction to produce

13:19

in us a greater glory

13:21

that far outweighs them all.

13:23

This is a faith exercise.

13:25

You know, there are so

13:27

many apologetics that are supposed

13:29

to excuse the inexcusable and

13:31

the more you and I

13:33

hear it, the more we

13:35

think, dear God, these people

13:37

are, they're playing twister. And

13:39

I'm sure you felt that,

13:41

right? You're like, how far

13:43

have you just bent? to

13:45

make this make sense, right?

13:47

Absolutely, unfortunately. Well, I don't

13:49

know how to change that

13:51

mind. This is the question

13:54

of the ages. All I

13:56

know is that I share

13:58

your frustration and I myself

14:00

hear that kind of thing

14:02

and I want to put

14:04

my head. through sheet rock.

14:06

So you and I have,

14:08

we share frustration. You and

14:10

I are sitting at the

14:12

bar together, I'm drinking something

14:14

non-alcoholic, but I tip my

14:16

glass and I share your

14:18

frustrations, my friend. Thanks for

14:20

Colin Cullen. Absolutely, thank you,

14:22

Seth, have a great day.

14:24

You betcha. Stay perfect. Well,

14:26

you know, it's, and this

14:28

gets tough. We're in tornado

14:31

season here in Oklahoma, and

14:33

we've already had some big

14:35

weather, and we're supposed to

14:37

get a lot more. baseball-sized

14:39

hail, right? Giant deadly cannonballs

14:41

of ice from the sky.

14:43

We've got tornadoes on the

14:45

ground. We had shingles ripped

14:47

off of roofs. I saw

14:49

trash cans blowing down the

14:51

road with 65 mile an

14:53

hour wind gust. It's just

14:55

been wild and it's not

14:57

even May. But it's very

14:59

common for people to reach

15:01

out and paint the silver

15:03

lining whenever tragedy and calamity

15:06

happens. I mentioned more Oklahoma.

15:08

talked about them in some

15:10

various speeches where there was

15:12

loss of life and billions

15:14

of dollars in property damage

15:16

and people will put up

15:18

a sign that says God

15:20

bless more or when they

15:22

get really twisty they find

15:24

a Bible in the ruins

15:26

sometimes the Bible is opened

15:28

and they'll locate a verse

15:30

on whatever page happened to

15:32

be open and they're like

15:34

this verse means something. It

15:36

is a reminder that God

15:38

has not abandoned us. There

15:40

was a television station in

15:43

Oklahoma City where the reporter

15:45

actually did a story about

15:47

a deadly tornado and somebody

15:49

found a Bible in the

15:51

debris field and it was

15:53

open to a certain verse.

15:55

I think it was out

15:57

of Isaiah, some inspirational fortune

15:59

cookie. And that was the

16:01

news story. Bible found with

16:03

inspirational verse in rubble. And

16:05

I'm over here like you

16:07

are going. I'm sorry, hang

16:09

on. The woman who owned

16:11

that Bible was killed. I

16:13

think it was a grandmother.

16:15

You know what I'm saying?

16:18

She's dead. Sorry about death.

16:20

Sorry about shredding a human

16:22

life. Enjoy these pieces of

16:24

paper, God says. That kind

16:26

of thing makes me crazy.

16:28

Some other gems on the argument's

16:31

roster, it takes more faith to

16:33

be an atheist. Who's the apologist

16:35

who says this? I gotta look

16:37

it up. It takes more faith

16:40

to be an atheist. He's got

16:42

a book by that title. Norman

16:44

Geysler, the Apologist. I think he's

16:46

dead. I think he's alive. I

16:48

don't know if there is an

16:51

open Bible left in his wake,

16:53

but I think he's dead. I

16:55

don't have to go look. I

16:57

don't have enough faith to be

17:00

an atheist is the name of

17:02

his book. And this is a

17:04

common thing. It takes more faith

17:06

to not believe in God. In

17:08

Oklahoma, they're going after the public

17:11

schools. A lot of it has

17:13

to do. It's a riff on

17:15

the teach the controversy angle. Well,

17:17

you know, intelligent design. One of

17:20

those things where we need to

17:22

teach both. Let's teach the scientific

17:24

record. Let's teach evolution. Let's teach

17:26

cosmology and the origins of all

17:28

things according to science and then

17:31

let's teach intelligent design and we'll

17:33

let the kids decide. Right. That's

17:35

a terrible way to approach education.

17:37

It's ideology first. It's creationism in

17:40

costume as all ID really is.

17:42

These people make me crazy. Dan

17:44

at 8.15. Thank you so much

17:46

for calling. What's going on? Hey

17:48

Seth, I appreciate you having me

17:51

on. You bet. Yeah, I don't

17:53

have a specific argument exactly, but

17:55

it's more of a general, you

17:57

know, flow that I encounter a

18:00

lot and, you know, my interactions

18:02

with theists and it's always the

18:04

argument of personal anecdote. Regardless of

18:06

what it may be, it's, oh,

18:08

I prayed for my friend to

18:11

be healed from their chronic headaches

18:13

and they were healed or, you

18:15

know, it's go down the line.

18:17

It's really frustrating because that seems

18:20

to me in my personal experience

18:22

to be one of the prevailing

18:24

cruxes of the issue where they

18:26

just can't get past a personal

18:28

experience of theirs that they have

18:31

deemed to be causal instead of

18:33

just maybe corollary. And so I

18:35

don't know if that's something that

18:37

is the main issue when it

18:40

comes to how a lot of

18:42

theists come to their conclusions, but

18:44

it's certainly one that I've experienced

18:46

and it's really frustrating. I don't

18:48

know if you've seen the, I

18:51

think it's Jubilee that puts on

18:53

these kind of panels where they'll

18:55

have one person sitting at a

18:57

table and like 20 people around

19:00

them trying to basically rush to

19:02

the center to be able to

19:04

present an argument and discuss with

19:06

them. Have you seen that? No,

19:09

I haven't seen it. There are

19:11

interesting videos like Alex O'Connor was

19:13

on it and you know he

19:15

would make his various claims and

19:17

then this circle of people who

19:20

disagree try and present their arguments

19:22

but they recently and I know

19:24

this this particularly isn't a religious

19:26

argument but they recently had a

19:29

doctor come on who described why

19:31

vaccines are important and they had

19:33

it was he was surrounded by

19:35

20 anti-vaxers and every single person

19:37

that came up to make their

19:40

argument about why they were against

19:42

vaccine. was always about well I

19:44

was able to you know cure

19:46

myself of this particular thing by

19:49

just using holistic medicine or this

19:51

other person who is saying they

19:53

know somebody that got the vaccine

19:55

and then died afterwards. It really

19:57

does seem to be a problem

20:00

of correlation versus causation and that's

20:02

really hard for people to get

20:04

past. Yeah, and then they see

20:06

validating things or what they believe

20:09

is validating things like the pseudo

20:11

documentary died suddenly talking about all

20:13

these famous people who got the

20:15

COVID vaccine and then they keeled

20:17

over. And people who didn't do

20:20

any more digging, who felt vindicated

20:22

in their anti-VAC stance, were like,

20:24

aha, these celebrities are all dead.

20:26

They died suddenly. But if they'd

20:29

done a five-second Google search, they'd

20:31

realize that the people who were

20:33

supposed to be dead were actually

20:35

alive and well and still doing

20:37

whatever they do without a problem.

20:40

I mean, it's so frustrating, right?

20:42

Confirmation bias, it's everywhere. Yeah, and

20:44

the most frustrating part about it

20:46

is, as you mentioned, a lot

20:49

of the time, the answers are

20:51

there. They are available. They're readily

20:53

available, and they're either dismissed or

20:55

they just don't look into it

20:57

enough. I remember talking to my

21:00

mother when I was having doubts.

21:02

going through deconstruction. And that's one

21:04

of the first arguments that she

21:06

led with. You know, I had

21:09

an experience. I had a spiritual

21:11

experience. Jesus appeared to me and

21:13

I know he's real and I

21:15

know he lives in my heart.

21:17

And it was kind of a

21:20

take my word for it thing

21:22

where, you know, if I had

21:24

told her that I'd had an

21:26

experience with the snow globe possessing

21:29

cosmic space octopus. I just know

21:31

it in my heart take my

21:33

word for it. She'd have lacked

21:35

me out of the room, but

21:37

I'm supposed to take her word

21:40

for it. It's a total double

21:42

standard. But yeah, the anecdotal claims

21:44

it's hard to know what to

21:46

do with him except maybe flip

21:49

the script and say, hey, would

21:51

you take somebody else's word if

21:53

they pitched a different God ideology,

21:55

political stance, philosophy? or whatever. That's

21:57

all I know how to do.

22:00

Yeah, it seems to be really

22:02

the only approach you can take.

22:04

It's frustrating because, you know, a

22:06

lot of times you just end

22:09

up hitting a wall where, oh,

22:11

well, that's not exactly the same, or

22:13

that's different because of X, Y,

22:15

and Z. And it's, yeah, there

22:17

are roadblocks. But I agree. I

22:19

mean, you can't really do much

22:21

when somebody has an emotional attachment

22:23

and a personal attachment to how

22:26

they come to their conclusions. I

22:28

just really think. critical thinking in

22:30

general. If you just take like

22:32

religion or any specific topic out

22:34

of it, I just really think

22:36

society at large has really failed

22:38

to educate its populace on how

22:41

to properly think critically and that

22:43

would solve a lot of our problems.

22:45

It would solve so many of our

22:47

problems. I feel you Dan, great call.

22:50

Thanks for being a part of the

22:52

conversation today. Thanks for having.

22:54

All right. See you later.

22:56

Okay. I know that you,

22:58

like me, just want to

23:00

sin, but we are going

23:02

to continue with more of

23:04

the worst of the worst

23:07

apologetic arguments out there, plus

23:09

whatever our collars want

23:11

to talk about next. The

23:16

American Atheist National Convention,

23:18

this coming weekend you

23:20

can still get tickets

23:22

for Minneapolis. Go to

23:24

Convention.athiists.com and then the

23:26

first weekend in May,

23:28

I'm gonna be at

23:30

the Western Canadian Reason

23:32

Conference. And if you

23:34

wanna get tickets for

23:36

Alberta Canada, we can

23:38

reason.com. This week we're

23:40

talking about bad apologetics.

23:42

Some of the worst

23:44

believer arguments that you and

23:46

I have to feel every single

23:48

day. I had a message from Lance

23:51

in the chat. The moral argument

23:53

is one of the worst arguments

23:56

for God. Where do your

23:58

morals come from? I think

24:00

this is pretty basic. Pro-social behaviors,

24:03

communal or community thinking, collectivism in

24:05

that way, ethical actions, benefiting another.

24:07

creating solidarity with another which then

24:10

comes back to you which means

24:12

you are more apt to procure

24:14

resources and survive threats so pro-social

24:17

behaviors are actually a great adaptation

24:19

to pass on your genes it

24:22

makes total sense to me evolutionarily

24:24

even if altruism doesn't truly exist

24:26

let's say in the back of

24:29

my mind I'm I'm like, well,

24:31

okay, if I benefit somebody else,

24:33

it's in some way might benefit

24:36

me. Whatever, we're still talking about

24:38

moral, pro-social behaviors. And the idea

24:40

that this stuff has to be

24:43

handed down from on high, it

24:45

makes no sense to me. And

24:48

then who wrote the Ten Commandments?

24:50

Because they're mostly a waste. We

24:52

need to run through a few

24:55

more of these messages on the

24:57

chat. Frank Turek, thank you. He's

24:59

the apologist I was first thinking

25:02

of. He says, you don't have,

25:04

it takes more faith to be

25:06

an atheist and he also says

25:09

that a common denominator among people

25:11

who deconstruct out of Christianity just

25:14

want to have sex. It's all

25:16

about sex, sexual shame and sexual

25:18

sin. They want to go out

25:21

and do all these prairian things,

25:23

you know. My well, you know,

25:25

there's a component to kicking away

25:28

the shame and the quote unquote

25:30

moral restraints But he's just trying

25:32

to reduce it to everybody wants

25:35

to go out and have orgies

25:37

Which it you know, I don't

25:40

think that's really the driving force

25:42

behind people asking is this true?

25:44

case so GR7 has asked why

25:47

my webcam is so shaky fair

25:49

question terrible answer I shake my

25:51

leg when I'm sitting in a

25:54

chair drives Natalie crazy. You know

25:56

that invisible baby bouncing on the

25:59

knee thing? I'm always doing it.

26:01

And I have to try to

26:03

remember to will myself out of

26:06

it. That's why the camera was

26:08

shaking. We did not have an

26:10

earthquake in Oklahoma. I was sitting

26:13

here bouncing my knee like an

26:15

idiot. I've done this. I do

26:17

it in movie theaters and Natalie

26:20

has to nudge me. I did

26:22

it on the bleachers. We were

26:25

watching one of the grandkids play

26:27

a ball game. And I didn't

26:29

realize I was doing it, and

26:32

the entire row apparently was ding,

26:34

ding, ding, ding, and Natalie's like,

26:36

hey, pss, quit it. You're bouncing

26:39

the parents on the entire row.

26:41

Oops, sorry about that. So anyway,

26:43

I throw myself at your mercy.

26:46

Oh, look super chats and some

26:48

much. Welcome support to the channel.

26:51

Hunter Biden's Laptops says thanks for

26:53

appearing on Secular Rising. Last night,

26:55

this is Dr. Jay Bundy. Hey,

26:58

Dr. Jay. Big, smart people. And

27:00

I had to follow Jay on

27:02

the freaking show, right? So we've

27:05

got a PhD followed by the

27:07

guy that took 30 years to

27:09

figure out that Donkeys can't speak

27:12

Hebrew. That's awesome. That's awesome. Thanks

27:14

for that secular rarity. Thank you

27:17

for making me do that. But

27:19

we were hanging out in the

27:21

grain room and had a great

27:24

conversation and it was a real

27:26

honor. So hey, Dr. Jay, it's

27:28

an honor to be able to

27:31

have you here. Craig says Islamic

27:33

apologetics seemed to dive deep into

27:35

numerology. The number 19 seems to

27:38

be a big deal into retro

27:40

predicting historical... Events. I don't know

27:43

that much about Islam, but I

27:45

do know there's a lot of

27:47

Da Vinci code type apologists who

27:50

are always doing weird math to

27:52

try to make the nonsensical make

27:54

sense. The only thing it proves

27:57

to me is that human beings

27:59

are pattern seekers or pattern makers

28:01

connecting dots, even the ones that

28:04

aren't supposed to be connected. You

28:06

know what I'm saying? They're like,

28:09

oh, this means something. Well, what

28:11

it means is that we are

28:13

pattern-seeking primates. That's what it means.

28:16

Ben says that I have a

28:18

nervous Trump twitch. Okay. Cookie Monster

28:20

says I'm just trembling in fear

28:23

of God. Bohemian Lucy is asked

28:25

the question, what is retro predicting?

28:27

Oh, that's such a good question.

28:30

So what we do is, somebody

28:32

writes a prophecy, and the Old

28:35

and New Testament are great examples,

28:37

or the Old Testament, New Testament,

28:39

and modern day headlines are a

28:42

great example of this. But what

28:44

you often will do is somebody

28:46

who is more of a contemporary

28:49

makes a prediction. or says that

28:51

something has transpired rather that is

28:53

a fulfillment of prophecy but they

28:56

are already aware of the prophecy

28:58

that was made before and they're

29:01

able to sort of mold or

29:03

retrofit this prophetic occurrence into the

29:05

story of old or the people

29:08

who write the fulfilled prophecy had

29:10

access to the old material so

29:12

the New Testament writer has access

29:15

to the Old Testament story and

29:17

then the New Testament people say

29:19

the fulfilled prophecy happened. Well we

29:22

can't verify either one of them

29:24

but somebody was using a cheat

29:27

sheet and again we still have

29:29

vague predictions where people are connecting

29:31

dots because they want to and

29:34

we have a ton of failed

29:36

prophecies like the prophecy of tire

29:38

in the Old Testament totally failed.

29:41

Nobody wants to talk about that

29:43

one. Nobody wants to talk about

29:45

it. That one You were never

29:48

a true Christian to begin with

29:50

oh Seth nobody nobody whoever really

29:53

knew God nobody who ever knew,

29:55

had a relationship with the risen

29:57

Savior, with Jesus Christ, would have

30:00

ever walked away from him? No,

30:02

you were a counterfeit. You were

30:04

an imposter. Oh, you may have

30:07

thought you were a Christian, but

30:09

absolutely not. What you needed was

30:11

a true and authentic encounter, and

30:14

then you would still be a

30:16

believer. How dare somebody else tell

30:19

me what's going on in my

30:21

own mind and heart? who was

30:23

a preacher for a lot of

30:26

years and he's co-president of the

30:28

Freedom from Religion Foundation, he likes

30:30

to say if I wasn't a

30:33

true Christian, nobody was. And I

30:35

feel the same way. I was

30:37

all in. True blue, Bible believing,

30:40

Bible literalist, Christian. And so to

30:42

have some third party sitting in

30:45

the cheap seats looking at me

30:47

going, eh, you didn't do it.

30:49

You weren't there. I'm like, you

30:52

have no idea what you're talking

30:54

about. You didn't see me when

30:56

I was just a kid walking

30:59

up the aisle at Eastwood Baptist

31:01

Church, almost crying because the revival

31:03

preacher had rattled my cage. I

31:06

wanted to go to heaven. I

31:08

sure didn't want to go to

31:11

hell. So I went forward and

31:13

I pleaded with all my heart,

31:15

dear, Jesus, save me and take

31:18

me to heaven. I mean, I

31:20

couldn't have been more sincere. And

31:22

then after that... I was so

31:25

insecure about getting it wrong or

31:27

losing my salvation and going to

31:29

hell that all the time I

31:32

continued to restate the salvation prayer.

31:34

Dear Jesus, please save me, cleanse

31:37

my heart. I know I'm a

31:39

sinner. Please, I, you know, please

31:41

rescue me, you know, make me

31:44

a Christian over and over and

31:46

over and over again. So... I

31:48

followed the instructions in the New

31:51

Testament. If you confess with your

31:53

mouth that Jesus is Lord and

31:55

believe in your heart that God

31:58

raised him from the dead, you

32:00

will be saved. I qualify if

32:03

anybody qualifies. Totally irritates me. Or

32:05

what's another one? You took this

32:07

verse out of context, usually in

32:10

the context of slavery, discussions of

32:12

slavery. Well, you know, it was

32:14

a different time. So the owning

32:17

of other human beings and the

32:19

beating of people who were enslaved,

32:21

or they were indentured servants. So

32:24

they were just paying off a

32:26

debt. when somebody beat them with

32:29

a stick and made them unconscious

32:31

for two days and then kept

32:33

them for the master's entire life

32:36

until the slave died and the

32:38

offspring of the slave got to

32:40

be slaves themselves on and on

32:43

through the generations. Oh yeah, that's

32:45

indentured servitude. You know what I'm

32:48

saying? You know, that's sorry. Weird

32:50

verses are metaphor or parable, conveniently

32:53

literal verses that might align in

32:55

some way with the historical record.

32:57

Well, those happened. Everything else is

32:59

allegory or it's a moral lesson.

33:01

Jesus Christ, if you'll pardon the

33:03

expression. Bob said, I just didn't

33:06

read it with the correct spirit,

33:08

right? Which is another apologetic. Well,

33:10

you need to get saved. Well

33:12

this doesn't make any sense to

33:14

me. Well you have to have

33:16

the Holy Spirit to be able

33:19

to properly discern God's message. When

33:21

do I get that? Well you

33:23

get the Holy Spirit when you

33:25

get saved. Wait a minute if

33:27

I'm not saved. How do I

33:30

get the Holy Spirit to get

33:32

saved so I can have the

33:34

Holy Spirit? This makes no sense.

33:36

434 calling out of Kansas City.

33:38

Thanks for waiting. Are you there?

33:40

Excellent, let's talk. We're venting frustrations

33:43

about bad apologetics. What's on your

33:45

mind? First off, Seth, I apologize.

33:47

I have a bit of a

33:49

speech in Ediment. You're doing great.

33:51

I wanted to say I was

33:53

the guy who posted on your

33:56

Thomas Jefferson speech that got the

33:58

most likes talking about your fire

34:00

being mixed with compassion and empathy

34:02

for others. Oh, thank you. Yeah,

34:04

no problem. You really helped in

34:06

my deconversion and your level of

34:09

empathy that you show and even

34:11

some of your satire is just

34:13

wonderful. The reason I called in,

34:15

it wasn't that I'm from Kansas

34:17

City, but I wanted to talk

34:20

about the Kansas City capital protest

34:22

this last weekend. And I don't

34:24

know if you're aware of it,

34:26

there was a protest by the

34:28

satanic grotto. Basically, Michael Stewart, the

34:30

head of the grotto, saw an

34:33

anti-abortion protest in the capital, decided

34:35

he wanted to do one. They

34:37

got the permits to do it

34:39

in the capital, and last minute

34:41

the governor basically pulled it so

34:43

they could do it outside. They

34:46

decided to do it outside, and

34:48

you can see video of it

34:50

on YouTube and stuff like that.

34:52

The part of it that bothered

34:54

me was, and they got sued

34:57

because they said they had a

34:59

consecrated host and all this kind

35:01

of stuff, but the part that

35:03

bothered me is I had a

35:05

20-year career in law enforcement. At

35:07

one point when he went to

35:10

desecrate the Eucharist, a Catholic basically

35:12

dived on it and shoved it

35:14

in his mouth. And the police

35:16

were very slow to react. When

35:18

he went in the capital, he

35:20

walked in the capital as he

35:23

said he would do. Basically, they

35:25

allowed a gentleman to assault him

35:27

to assault him twice. And then

35:29

finally when he hit the guy

35:31

back, they intervened, tackled him, and

35:34

you can watch it on the

35:36

video, the other guy just walks

35:38

off casually. And from what I

35:40

understand, several people were arrested about

35:42

it, but they had thousands and

35:44

thousands of Catholics basically protesting 30

35:47

people. And I just wanted to

35:49

get your thoughts and feelings on

35:51

that. Like, do you feel nowadays

35:53

that freedom of speech is going

35:55

to be contorted or twisted? Yes,

35:57

I think it is. right now.

36:00

I think we are seeing the

36:02

shutdown of free space. Beach. Unfortunately

36:04

I don't live in Kansas City.

36:06

We wanted to talk about Kansas

36:08

City, but where I live would

36:11

make Oklahoma look secular. And if

36:13

you ever want to know, I

36:15

can reach out to you, but

36:17

where I live, I was a

36:19

next-door neighbor of probably one of

36:21

the largest pastors in history. And

36:24

basically I live in the buckle

36:26

of the belt. And so I

36:28

get the idea of ideas being

36:30

so scary around here. I mean,

36:32

I'm a closet atheist. I can't

36:34

come out in the environment I'm

36:37

in because this town is, we

36:39

have more churches than restaurants. You

36:41

can throw a rock here and

36:43

hit three, I always say we

36:45

have two things in abundance, tornadoes

36:47

and churches and the tornadoes are

36:50

easier to escape. So you probably

36:52

feel a little bit like that

36:54

you're surrounded, right? There is like

36:56

literally no. protest around here because

36:58

you will be shut down immediately.

37:01

They don't care about free speech

37:03

around here pretty much. So it's

37:05

just sad because I feel like

37:07

more so now people are withdrawing

37:09

in the closets because they don't

37:11

want to talk about their political

37:14

ideology or their religious ideology or

37:16

the correlation between the two. Like

37:18

you, I grew up in an

37:20

extremely fundamentalist environment. Trust me, I

37:22

have the scars to prove it.

37:24

But I know what religious fundamentalism

37:27

is, and I'm seeing what they

37:29

prophesies as the end times. And

37:31

you have people that are really

37:33

trying to push for that right

37:35

now. The idea of unifying Israel

37:38

because it's biblical, bringing the Jews

37:40

back. You have this entire faith

37:42

office in the West Wing now

37:44

with wonderful Paula White leading the

37:46

charge. And I feel like... A

37:48

lot of people are very scared.

37:51

I know some of the people

37:53

around here that are closet atheists

37:55

are scared about what that means.

37:57

You know, you definitely don't want

37:59

to come out now. Is there

38:01

like an argument that many believers

38:04

make along the theme of the

38:06

show? Is there anything that you

38:08

have heard that just makes you

38:10

really? Absolutely. I get all of

38:12

the normal apologetics. In fact, I

38:15

graduated from a Christian University and

38:17

I took coursework on apologetics, but

38:19

it's you taking it out of

38:21

context. Well, what he's trying to

38:23

say here is blank. You think

38:25

you're smarter than God? Just a

38:28

lot of stuff like that. And

38:30

it's a lot of the presuppositional,

38:32

oh, well, you think you're smarter

38:34

than God. Oh, you just want

38:36

to denounce him. And around here,

38:38

that is a conversation that could

38:41

potentially lead this physical problems just

38:43

because of around here. I've seen

38:45

people involved in fist fights over

38:47

religion just in the town I

38:49

live. And it feels like it's

38:51

getting worse. A lot of these...

38:54

Christians feel more empowered? And they

38:56

seem to be invoking almost the

38:58

Old Testament God. Theirs isn't that

39:00

Jesus loves the little children God.

39:02

It's the Yahweh is going to

39:05

jack you up God. That's the

39:07

one they seem to be really

39:09

into these days. It is scary

39:11

times. I don't know. I've been

39:13

having this conversation. How do we

39:15

correct it all without violence? I

39:18

don't want violence. I don't condone

39:20

violence, but I wonder at some

39:22

point, I mean, I was watching

39:24

the Alex Garland film Civil War

39:26

the other day, and I thought,

39:28

this is like contemporary. I could

39:31

project modern headlines onto what's happening

39:33

here, and I think it was

39:35

directed and produced that way, so

39:37

that it's sort of evergreen. whatever

39:39

factions are going head to head,

39:42

whatever splintering of a nation might

39:44

be taking place, you can say,

39:46

oh yeah, this is relevant. And

39:48

I thought, you know, what happens?

39:50

And I fear it's just a

39:52

matter of time. There's going to

39:55

be bombs and fires and bullets

39:57

and fists. the street and I'm

39:59

scared. I think that you have

40:01

the right idea. Sometimes what brings

40:03

me peace is listening to you

40:05

guys and knowing there's community out

40:08

there and especially from you sat

40:10

you come from a place of

40:12

empathy you understand you went through

40:14

the state panic panic with us

40:16

you know you you lived these

40:19

experiences and I think knowing that

40:21

others out there are like-minded gives

40:23

some resolve at least know to

40:25

me how about you? I just

40:27

feel like I'm not providing anything.

40:29

How many times have people called

40:32

and they're like, what do we

40:34

do? I feel overwhelmed. Everything's going

40:36

crazy. And I sit here blankly

40:38

and go, yeah, you're right. I

40:40

don't have any solutions. I feel

40:42

like an idiot. I feel kind

40:45

of powerless. But I do want

40:47

to be an encourager. And I

40:49

am activating, in fact, talking about

40:51

an event that has been going

40:53

on nationwide. I actually had a,

40:56

I'll talk about it here in

40:58

just a second, but I had

41:00

an activism poster for a live

41:02

demonstration printed up. So I mean,

41:04

I have been public, but I

41:06

don't know what to do. Is

41:09

it lip service or does it

41:11

make a difference? I think I'm

41:13

in the same boat as everybody

41:15

else. Maybe there's some therapy in

41:17

that the you are not alone

41:19

angle, but that's all I know.

41:22

Well, I think individually we don't

41:24

have much of a voice, but

41:26

I think if we remember that

41:28

there are other people out there,

41:30

sometimes that can give us the

41:32

encouragement to hold on to our

41:35

beliefs. It's very easy in an

41:37

environment like you and I live

41:39

where you have to talk to

41:41

talk, and I like you can

41:43

speak fundamentalism. I mean, you want

41:46

to hear an alter call, I

41:48

can do a great one. I

41:50

don't know what the answer is

41:52

and I like you and the

41:54

big pacifist despite previous careers in

41:56

my life I detest violence. I

41:59

think that the way that we

42:01

argument when is, or not really

42:03

win, but just bite our time

42:05

and try to, like you're doing

42:07

right now, find ways that we

42:09

can resist passively, but let the

42:12

world know that we're out there. There

42:14

are people that are, you know,

42:16

they look at you around here

42:18

like you're a freak. I have

42:20

told a few people and they

42:22

just can't believe this concept of

42:24

oh wow you you're like you're

42:26

dumb or something like you're too

42:28

stupid to understand but I think you're

42:30

doing great work Seth and I'll let you

42:33

go but I I just wanted to

42:35

say thank you oh yeah it's an

42:37

honor to talk to you I appreciate

42:39

the encouragement I'm going to talk a

42:42

little bit about my recent, my more

42:44

recent forms of protests such as they

42:46

are and maybe provide a little more

42:49

encouragement that I'm taking a cue from

42:51

the comments from the new humanist who

42:53

just gave me a great idea. So

42:56

I'm going to borrow that and take

42:58

credit for it. But thanks for

43:00

calling the show and you take care,

43:02

all right. Can I say it real

43:04

quick, sir? God bless your heart and

43:06

God bless you. Thank you. Thank you

43:08

so much. All right. Oh yeah, we

43:10

can speak the Christianese like that. I can

43:13

do it. I can recall it

43:15

quickly. The new humanist in the

43:17

comments that we got a form

43:19

more cohesive and active communities, ethical

43:21

societies, oasis chapters, satanic temples, Sunday

43:24

assemblies, there are options and they

43:26

need our support and encouragement. Actually,

43:28

this is a great point and

43:30

I'm so glad you made it.

43:33

I think we are better together.

43:35

I think we have to be unified.

43:37

I think we do, a lot

43:39

of atheists hate the idea of

43:41

forming groups or acting in groups

43:43

because they think it's a heard

43:45

mentality. This is horseshit. We are

43:47

communal creatures. We are powerful, more

43:49

effective, stronger together. I think we

43:51

have to put aside petty differences

43:53

that we might have here and there.

43:55

You know, the ancillary stuff and I

43:58

think we have to come together.

44:00

They're in focus on big picture

44:02

activism and resistance, which is one

44:04

of the reasons that many of

44:06

my co-resisters are themselves religious people.

44:09

They are state church separation advocates,

44:11

they are secular activists, they are

44:13

moderate believers. They are not necessarily

44:15

Bible literalists, we disagree on theology.

44:18

But more importantly, we care about

44:20

and love people and want to

44:22

save democracy. Am I going to

44:24

make those people my allies? Do

44:27

I want to be their allies?

44:29

Damn, Skippy, certain, yes, I do.

44:31

I also think those of us

44:33

who feel powerless have to find

44:36

and support those who are on

44:38

the front lines and this includes

44:40

legally there are a lot of

44:42

lawsuits being filed there are people

44:45

who are policy experts who are

44:47

on the front lines making a

44:49

case on a much larger stage

44:52

than you and i have an

44:54

access to so if we donate

44:56

and i know it sounds lame

44:58

but what they do takes funding

45:01

If we donate to, if we

45:03

join organizations, if we follow their

45:05

work, if we subscribe to their

45:07

newsletters to stay informed, and if

45:10

we donate to organizations like Americans

45:12

United for separation of church and

45:14

state, American atheists has been doing

45:16

quite a bit of work, I'm

45:19

on their board, the ACLU, secular

45:21

coalition for America, Freedom From Religion

45:23

Foundation, who by the way is

45:25

being sued by Ryan Walters. the

45:28

Oklahoma superintendent of public instruction because

45:30

they had the goal to say

45:32

stop broadcasting Christian prayers over public

45:34

school intercoms Ryan Walters thinks he's

45:37

being harassed So now FFRF is

45:39

facing a legal battle. Yeah, we

45:41

need to support them. And a

45:43

few bucks, hey, it's not lame.

45:46

It does matter. I didn't mean

45:48

to go off on another trail.

45:50

I was going to try to

45:52

do something other than Christian nationalism,

45:55

politics, and the state of the

45:57

world. the state. Forgive me for

45:59

that. Back to bad arguments. Pascal's

46:01

wager. I'd rather believe and be

46:04

wrong, which is crap because you

46:06

can't force yourself to actually believe

46:08

if you don't believe. Then you're

46:10

just projecting or saying you believe,

46:13

which means you're fooling God. Like

46:15

God couldn't tell the difference that

46:17

I'm just playing a poker hand

46:19

so I don't go to hell.

46:22

Pascal's wager is just total crap.

46:24

How did something come from nothing?

46:26

The eye is too complex to

46:28

have evolved. Talk about crap. Not

46:31

only are there models revealing how

46:33

the eye evolved naturally. Models that

46:35

make perfect sense. We have examples

46:37

of the various stages of eyes

46:40

now. You can find, like, the

46:42

organisms with a very basic eye

46:44

that just detect light, and then

46:46

you can see more complex eyes

46:49

throughout the animal kingdom, you can

46:51

actually see in real time the

46:53

progression of the eye and how

46:55

it would and could happen. There

46:58

are whole videos by scientists that

47:00

take this one apart, an apologister

47:02

like, look at the eye. I'm

47:04

like, you know what, look at

47:07

my bifocal glasses. Look at all

47:09

the people who had to go

47:11

have LACIC surgery. Look at the

47:13

people who have chronic degenerative eyesight

47:16

and have a hard time seeing

47:18

their way across the room. Look

47:20

at that. Tell me about that.

47:22

Not that the eye isn't wondrous

47:25

and complex and amazing, but whoever

47:27

that designer was, somebody, somebody needs

47:29

to be fired. Also noticed how

47:31

many complexity of the eye apologists

47:34

wear corrective lenses. Yeah, notice that.

47:36

How are we doing? Have I

47:38

missed any of the big apologetics

47:40

out there? I know there's some

47:43

that aren't on my list. You

47:45

can always sort of punch them

47:47

into the comment section and we'll

47:49

take more of your calls next.

47:52

Hope you're having a fantastic day

47:54

and a great week despite all

47:56

the insanity in the world. This

47:58

is a safe place. This is

48:01

a hub. This is family. And

48:03

time for us to talk about

48:05

the things that amuse and occasionally

48:07

frustrate us this week. It's bad

48:10

apologetics. Let's talk to Sarah 330,

48:12

hi, thanks for waiting on me,

48:14

are you there? Oh my God,

48:16

hey, it's great to talk to

48:19

you. You just wanted to say,

48:21

I heard the last guy talking,

48:23

I worked in politics for 15

48:25

years, I'm a political communicator, and

48:28

protest work. They do, they build

48:30

the muscle of resistance, and they

48:32

get you in your community for

48:34

bigger and better protests. So getting

48:37

out there and you advocating for

48:39

that stuff is amazing, because it

48:41

means all of us are going

48:43

to be able to be able

48:46

to get out. the big people

48:48

like you who have these big

48:50

followings advocating for it means more

48:52

and more people are going to

48:55

be doing it. That's amazing. Oh,

48:57

that's good to hear because I'm

48:59

activating with hands off 2025.com, which

49:01

is a hub where people can

49:04

find various protests in their own

49:06

zip code or in their own

49:08

region. And I mocked up this

49:10

big sign for the protest in

49:13

Photoshop. I was real proud of

49:15

it. I had trumps. White House

49:17

vote. It was posted on the

49:19

official White House account of him

49:22

wearing the crown and it said

49:24

something like long live the king.

49:26

And so under the image of

49:28

King Trump posted by the White

49:31

House, I put that Thomas Jefferson

49:33

quote from his letter to George

49:35

Washington where Jefferson said, I was

49:37

much an enemy to monarchy before

49:40

I came to Europe. I am

49:42

10,000 times more so since I

49:44

have seen what they are. And

49:46

I debated whether or not I

49:49

should put kind of a thicker

49:51

quote on a placard that I'm

49:53

holding on a. street corner, but

49:55

I didn't want to go out

49:58

and be so snarky and sarcastic

50:00

that anybody driving by or walking

50:02

by would immediately shut down and

50:04

just think I was a woke,

50:07

live, evil person. I don't think

50:09

they can do as much with

50:11

a quote from one of the

50:13

founding fathers. I think that takes

50:16

some of the teeth out of

50:18

them. I don't know. Do you

50:20

have a perspective on that? Yeah,

50:22

it's interesting. so i'm working on

50:25

this video on on why we

50:27

need to rework federalism right now

50:29

and you just hit to the

50:31

point of it right which is

50:34

that republicans are attempting to create

50:36

essentially petty dictator shifts with their

50:38

own rules and restrictions in every

50:40

state and that's the same thing

50:43

as a kingdom just writ small

50:45

and what the federal government is

50:47

supposed to do is protect our

50:49

liberties and not reduce them into

50:52

this like Christian nationalist mindset and

50:54

we see that happening especially in

50:56

your Oklahoma with the education stuff

50:58

and with reproductive liberties everywhere. Yeah,

51:01

Thomas Jefferson is right, that like

51:03

this sort of rule by the

51:05

few, whether it's a king or

51:07

a preacher, is unfit for an

51:10

American democracy. Oh, you're good. Any

51:12

other advice for us as far

51:14

as what to do and where

51:16

to do it? Because I think

51:19

that's the one thing. We're waiting

51:21

for the flash point. We're waiting

51:23

for the rallying flag. We want

51:26

to do something, but we don't

51:28

know where to be effective and

51:30

people feel helpless and sometimes give

51:32

up. Any thoughts there? Yeah, so

51:35

I originally come from like a

51:37

very middle class town in central

51:39

Ohio and I was driving to

51:41

see my parents. I saw like

51:44

10 people out on the corner

51:46

of our city hall. protesting Trump,

51:48

never seen that before in my

51:50

life. You protest with your small

51:53

group of people in your community,

51:55

build those structures of support in

51:57

places they've never been before, and

51:59

that builds your muscles. So when

52:02

the big action comes and the

52:04

thing that the United States is

52:06

kind of bad at is getting

52:08

to the mass mobilization. So that

52:11

is the goal that everyone should

52:13

be working for is like a

52:15

mass day of strike or just

52:17

a mass day of protest or

52:20

whatever if it happens on like

52:22

a Saturday or something. so that

52:24

everybody gets out there and is

52:26

ready to do it in their

52:29

town because it has to be

52:31

seen everywhere. It can't just be

52:33

in DC and in Central Park.

52:35

Good stuff. Thanks for offering that

52:38

up. Will you on it and

52:40

do something with it. Appreciate you

52:42

so much. Thank you for what

52:44

you do. You're amazing. Oh, thanks

52:47

so much. Take it easy. We'll

52:49

see you. Let's see, that website

52:51

that I was talking about is

52:53

Hands off2025.com. In the comments, if

52:56

you are aware of, I know

52:58

there's, is it 5051? And it's

53:00

the words, 5051.com, is that right?

53:02

They're another hub where people can

53:05

find and either participate in or

53:07

organize their own protest. and go

53:09

public. I think the more and

53:11

more and more people are being

53:14

visible. Once again, we have spun

53:16

from apologetic arguments that drive us

53:18

crazy, and we're talking about the

53:20

culture, politics, Trump, Project 2025, and

53:23

the end of all things. The

53:25

decline of Western civilization. I guess

53:27

this is just so on everybody's

53:29

mind. We're going to gravitate back

53:32

to that. I'll let you decide.

53:34

if that's what you want to

53:36

talk about. It's true because the

53:38

Bible says so using the book

53:41

to prove the book. That's always

53:43

a joy. How have you heard

53:45

this one? All religions deserve respect.

53:47

Why can't you respect religion? And

53:50

I always respond that I think

53:52

when possible people should get respect.

53:54

But ideas have to earn it,

53:56

don't they? Somebody walks in and

53:59

they have a claim. that we

54:01

automatically say, well, that claim is

54:03

deeply held. That's a sacred belief

54:05

to one person, therefore, what, that

54:08

belief gets deference? That's crazy. I

54:10

saw somebody post this one. Oh,

54:12

look, they think they found Noah's

54:14

Ark again. And this was just

54:17

too... three weeks ago I posted

54:19

it on the thinking atheist Facebook

54:21

page I'm like how many times

54:23

they gonna discover Noah's Ark and

54:26

then realize it's a mound of

54:28

freaking dirt. You know look it's

54:30

a little overlooking thing. Therefore it

54:32

is an arc. It is the

54:35

arc of Genesis. There are no

54:37

atheists and fox holes. You have

54:39

not been listening to this show

54:41

as we have members of the

54:44

military call quite often and they

54:46

talk about what is like to

54:48

be an atheist in the armed

54:50

forces often deployed in combat. What

54:53

about the longevity argument? If it's

54:55

not true, how come it's the

54:57

most popular religion on the planet

54:59

2,000 years later? Right? If it's

55:02

not true, why has it been

55:04

around for thousands upon thousands of

55:06

years? Of course, it's true, or

55:08

it wouldn't have stuck. Are you

55:11

kidding? Or look at, can two

55:13

billion people be wrong? And of

55:15

course, our answer is yes. Yeah.

55:17

I'm sorry. Mass delusion is delusion,

55:20

isn't it? Isn't it? I'm sorry.

55:22

Mass delusion is delusion, isn't it?

55:24

I did just... I don't know.

55:26

That's just me. Let's see, is

55:29

it Emily at 660? Hi, are

55:31

you there? Hello? Hi, Emily. Welcome.

55:33

We're talking apologetics arguments that make

55:35

us crazy. Is that what you

55:38

want to talk about? Yeah. When

55:40

you brought up the Pascal Waiter

55:42

earlier, it made me think of

55:44

an argument like I'm off. Actually,

55:47

pretty easy to give me once.

55:49

It was similar to the Pascal's

55:51

Waiter. Except he admitted. She's like,

55:53

oh. I understand that I may

55:56

be wrong and go to hell,

55:58

but I would rather die trying.

56:00

Does that make sense? How sad

56:02

is that kind of a life.

56:05

You are pledging at least an

56:07

outward allegiance to the one who

56:09

might burn you in a furnace

56:11

and that's kind of the place

56:14

she stuck with, huh? Yeah, I

56:16

think so. I mean, this was

56:18

several years ago, so like, I

56:20

may be misremembering you, but yeah,

56:23

that's how I remember. It almost

56:25

felt like she was gambling. Oh,

56:27

it is gambling. It's very much

56:29

not a statement of conviction. It's

56:32

hedging your bets. and I think

56:34

the lack of conviction in that

56:36

position, essentially it's self-interest. So it's

56:38

very sad to hear, but it

56:41

does sound accurate. So, anything else?

56:43

Well, not all pan, I don't.

56:45

But I really appreciate you taking

56:47

my call and I appreciate all

56:50

the work you do. Well, it's

56:52

a joy to speak to you,

56:54

Emily. You have a good one.

56:56

You keep on keeping on and

56:59

call the show again sometime, okay?

57:01

Okay. All the show the show

57:03

again sometime, OK. and focus on

57:05

the New Testament. Have you heard

57:08

that one? I'm sorry. Did you

57:10

just write off more than half

57:12

of the bottom? Did you just

57:14

take like a machete and go

57:17

shunk? Ignore that. Ignore the Old

57:19

Testament. Which means what? Now the

57:21

Adam and Eve story is gone.

57:23

Ten Commandments are gone. The exodus

57:26

from Egypt, all that's gone. The

57:28

walls of Jericho, all that stuff's

57:30

gone. Eh, whatever. Nj, shunk. Or

57:32

Jesus came and undid the Old

57:35

Testament, which means they haven't read

57:37

the book of Matthew or God.

57:39

Actually, Jesus guarantees that all the

57:41

law will be fulfilled. You know,

57:44

including in the Old Testament, it's

57:46

crazy. There was another comment. Let's

57:48

see, evil atheist said in the

57:51

comments, if people wouldn't die for

57:53

a lie. you all better become

57:55

Muslims real fast. Well the die

57:57

for a lie comment we heard

58:00

with Mel Gibson on the Joe

58:02

Rogan podcast, he made the claim

58:04

people don't die for a lie.

58:06

Meaning that the apostles who were

58:09

killed for their faith. They wouldn't

58:11

have died if it wasn't true.

58:13

There was so much wrong with

58:15

that statement. Was I on this

58:18

show or a different show? Where

58:20

I was talking about the Heaven's

58:22

Gate cult? They put on the

58:24

purple tennis shoes or whatever and

58:27

they drank poison so they could

58:29

rendezvous with a comet. Well, they

58:31

were convinced, they were sincere, did

58:33

they die for a lie? Jim

58:36

Jones' followers, 900 people dead in

58:38

the field, did they die for

58:40

a lie? Yeah, they kind of

58:42

did, right? This idea that somebody

58:45

is willing to end to the

58:47

Muslim faith, to Islamic extremism, the

58:49

jihadists who are willing to blow

58:51

themselves and everybody else up to

58:54

achieve paradise and the virgins and

58:56

everything else, did they die for

58:58

a lie? Yeah. They kind of

59:00

did. Let's talk to Steve 970.

59:03

Welcome. Thanks for calling. What's up?

59:05

Hey, Seth, great to be on

59:07

your show. I wanted to make

59:09

one comment about the stupid thing

59:12

that fears say to defend their

59:14

religion and I get into these

59:16

discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses occasionally and

59:18

they always end up saying, well,

59:21

You know, they can't answer the

59:23

question, but you'll find out. You'll

59:25

find out when you die, you

59:27

know, which I think is ridiculous.

59:30

Just wait till you're dead. Yeah,

59:32

that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. The

59:34

other thing I wanted to comment

59:36

on in our political situation is

59:39

I'm 71 years old, so I

59:41

was 10 years old when JFK

59:43

was assassinated. And even though I

59:45

was 10 years old, I remember

59:48

thinking, wow, you know, they can

59:50

just, somebody can come along and

59:52

kill the president and, you know,

59:54

then our whole political system goes

59:57

into chaos. And then they assassinated

59:59

his brother. And then they killed

1:00:01

Martin Luther King. And so we've

1:00:03

been living through, you know, some

1:00:06

really bad stuff. So it seems

1:00:08

like what Trump is doing and

1:00:10

Elon is doing, actually doesn't seem

1:00:12

so bad after what we've been

1:00:15

through it. This is a good

1:00:17

thing in a way that it's

1:00:19

a wake-up call. People are going

1:00:21

to start saying, wait a minute,

1:00:24

you know, whoa, you know, maybe

1:00:26

we should start paying attention. I

1:00:28

think it's going to create a

1:00:30

lot more activism. You are saying

1:00:33

that we haven't had presidential assassinations

1:00:35

and like the Martin Luther King

1:00:37

tragedy, etc. the murder of the

1:00:39

civil rights activists. We haven't gotten

1:00:42

to that point where again there

1:00:44

was gunfire and blood and murder

1:00:46

in the streets of these people.

1:00:48

So given where we are, this

1:00:51

is... A zeitgeist changing point where

1:00:53

the resistance rises and we should

1:00:55

see it as a good thing?

1:00:57

I don't know, am I hearing

1:01:00

that right Steve? Well, I don't

1:01:02

necessarily think it's a good thing,

1:01:04

but I do think it's a

1:01:06

point of, you know, if you

1:01:09

look at history and you see

1:01:11

any violent revolutions that have occurred,

1:01:13

it's usually only when things get

1:01:15

so bad. that people just can't

1:01:18

do anything else but you know

1:01:20

get out on the out in

1:01:22

the streets and we may be

1:01:24

again at that point like like

1:01:27

I said they refer back to

1:01:29

the 1960s when they had the

1:01:31

riots in the streets and there

1:01:33

there was you know it had

1:01:36

gotten so bad that people you

1:01:38

know the protest of Vietnam War

1:01:40

for example So it's just all

1:01:42

happening again and maybe we finally

1:01:45

will get to a point where,

1:01:47

you know, we can fix a

1:01:49

lot of the problems in the

1:01:51

government that, you know, and that's

1:01:54

what I'm saying. I think this

1:01:56

is going to be a good

1:01:58

thing in that it brings out

1:02:00

the awareness. that we haven't had

1:02:03

for so long? I wish I

1:02:05

shared your optimism as I watched

1:02:07

the deportations and the shutdowns of

1:02:09

government's offices, protective measures, judges under

1:02:12

fire, the alienation of the United

1:02:14

States against its allies who have

1:02:16

supported us over the centuries. I

1:02:18

wish I had your optimism, but

1:02:21

maybe there will be a correction.

1:02:23

and maybe we'll survive it. All

1:02:25

I know is to keep activisting

1:02:27

out there, Steve. So thanks for

1:02:30

calling the show. I appreciate it.

1:02:32

Yeah, thank you. All right, we'll

1:02:34

see you later. How many people

1:02:36

have heard Hitler invoked by apologists?

1:02:39

I probably jacked up my own

1:02:41

algorithm. I have noticed. that whenever

1:02:43

we talk about sensitive things like

1:02:45

this, I don't think I'm being

1:02:48

paranoid or a conspiracy theorist, but

1:02:50

I have noticed whenever we talk

1:02:52

about sensitive stuff that those shows

1:02:54

get less exposure on YouTube. I've

1:02:57

noticed that I can't help but

1:02:59

wonder if they're being scanned for

1:03:01

hot button terms and then AI

1:03:03

or whatever is knocking them down

1:03:06

lower. As far as the exposure

1:03:08

pool to potential listeners and viewers,

1:03:10

but I'm gonna go I mean

1:03:12

I don't know how to say

1:03:15

Hitler without saying Hitler and one

1:03:17

of the arguments is Hitler was

1:03:19

an atheist meaning they have aligned

1:03:21

non-belief in gods with one of

1:03:24

the greatest tyrants, if not the

1:03:26

greatest tyrant and mass murderer of

1:03:28

the 20th century. And I know

1:03:30

it's a strong field. But you

1:03:33

know, we hear a lot of

1:03:35

this. Stalin was an atheist and

1:03:37

I think actually you need to

1:03:39

do a little homework, especially on,

1:03:42

I think Stalin may have been

1:03:44

a non-believer, but you know, Hitler

1:03:46

invoked God all the time. He

1:03:48

wrote about God and God's mission.

1:03:51

You know, he believed he was

1:03:53

doing God's good. work. He wrote

1:03:55

about it in mine comp. He

1:03:57

preached about it and screamed about

1:04:00

it from podiums in front of

1:04:02

tens and tens and tens of

1:04:04

thousands of people. And he had

1:04:06

alignments and allegiances with the Catholic

1:04:09

Church and blah blah blah. And

1:04:11

of course when I say that

1:04:13

the apologists say, well he wasn't

1:04:15

really a true Christian. He was

1:04:18

just politically aligning with powerful organizations

1:04:20

to be able to achieve his

1:04:22

end goal. Isn't that a convenient

1:04:25

little excuse? You know, say, okay,

1:04:27

so if they do good, they're

1:04:29

a real Christian, and if they

1:04:31

do evil, then they're not a

1:04:34

Christian. I've been told that I

1:04:36

just want to play God myself.

1:04:38

Now, the reason, you arrogant, arrogant

1:04:40

man. The only reason that you've

1:04:43

rejected God is because you wish

1:04:45

to take God's place. I've been

1:04:47

told that Christianity is not a

1:04:49

religion, it's a relationship. And so

1:04:52

I've got it all wrong. Well,

1:04:54

of course, I gave up religion.

1:04:56

I'm not religious. I have a

1:04:58

relationship with Jesus Christ. I guess

1:05:01

which speaks to the personal experience

1:05:03

and the anecdote angle that many

1:05:05

people use. I've got a web

1:05:07

call from Mike. Mike, are you

1:05:10

there? Hey, can you hear me

1:05:12

okay? I can't indeed. Let's talk,

1:05:14

what's on your mind? Well, I'm

1:05:16

not from the US, I'm from

1:05:19

Europe, I'm from Holland as you

1:05:21

might say, and I might have

1:05:23

an interesting perspective for you guys,

1:05:25

because around my parts there's not

1:05:28

really a hub of religion as

1:05:30

you might call, like we don't

1:05:32

have something like the Bible Belt,

1:05:34

right? So I was brought up

1:05:37

atheists. I think the thing that

1:05:39

you pointed out earlier is that

1:05:41

religion and upbringing is so closely

1:05:43

tied together that since I was

1:05:46

brought up in that environment of

1:05:48

non-religion that I cannot really relate

1:05:50

to approach. or a group of

1:05:52

persons that is so intensely religious

1:05:55

that they cannot see my point

1:05:57

of view. So I'm wondering, is

1:05:59

there a possibility of having arguments

1:06:01

with each other at all? I

1:06:04

know that many people, especially here

1:06:06

in this highly religious United States,

1:06:08

are highly religious pockets of United

1:06:10

States and they're big pockets. They

1:06:13

are sincere believers living in an

1:06:15

alternate reality. And I think at

1:06:17

some point when possible we do

1:06:19

have to have the hard discussions

1:06:22

about what's true, what's not, what's

1:06:24

been proven, what's not, what's moral

1:06:26

and what's not. And I know

1:06:28

in more secular countries they look

1:06:31

at us and wonder what in

1:06:33

the hell is going on here.

1:06:35

But I think, you know, there

1:06:37

can, what was it, Christopher Hitchin

1:06:40

said something like there can be

1:06:42

no progress without confrontation. And I

1:06:44

think we are now at a

1:06:46

confrontation point in our history. And

1:06:49

that's what we must be doing

1:06:51

in focusing on. Okay, Mike. Hmm,

1:06:53

I guess so. All right. Thanks

1:06:55

with the perspective. I appreciate the

1:06:58

call very much. Take care of

1:07:00

yourself. We'll see you later. I've

1:07:02

said many founding fathers were Christian,

1:07:04

yet they still knew the importance

1:07:07

of separation in church. of church

1:07:09

and state. What a great point.

1:07:11

I made this point as well

1:07:13

in a speech I released a

1:07:16

few weeks ago called Jefferson's Jesus.

1:07:18

And we talk about, first of

1:07:20

all, it's irrelevant whether or not

1:07:22

the founders had a personal faith.

1:07:25

Some may have believed in God,

1:07:27

some were deists, some like Jesus

1:07:29

as a philosopher, some may have

1:07:31

believed in a divine Jesus. But

1:07:34

when it came to the founding

1:07:36

and the structure of the United

1:07:38

States, they purposefully left God out

1:07:40

of the Constitution. People are like,

1:07:43

we're a Christian nation. Why? Because

1:07:45

God's on the money. Where'd that

1:07:47

come from? and uh... you know

1:07:49

this idea that because somebody printed

1:07:52

it somewhere it's there okay well

1:07:54

where's god printed in the united

1:07:56

states constitution the governing document of

1:07:58

the entire country And

1:08:01

then their head pops off and

1:08:03

you see a spring kind of

1:08:05

hanging out of the neck. I'm

1:08:07

sorry, show me one mention of

1:08:10

God, show me the word God

1:08:12

anywhere in the United States Constitution.

1:08:14

There's the NDE argument near death

1:08:16

experience. I was on my deathbed,

1:08:18

my heart stopped for a second,

1:08:21

I floated above my body or

1:08:23

I saw a white light and

1:08:25

there was grandma and then Jesus

1:08:27

was behind grandma and then God

1:08:30

was behind Jesus who was behind

1:08:32

grandma and it was a big,

1:08:34

it was like a big chain.

1:08:36

Everybody reached out their hands so

1:08:38

therefore I know. Of course you

1:08:41

and I are listening to the

1:08:43

stories about the brain deprived of

1:08:45

oxygen and we're thinking hypoxia. We're

1:08:47

not thinking that heaven is real.

1:08:49

Why are you stealing my joy?

1:08:52

Why do you have to be

1:08:54

such a pain about now? You

1:08:56

know, I'm sorry, don't ever let

1:08:58

those people call us snowflakes and

1:09:01

the biggest freaking. Ryan Walters is

1:09:03

the biggest freaking snowflake on the

1:09:05

planet. For somebody who doesn't believe

1:09:07

in God, you seem obsessed. You

1:09:09

talk about God all the time.

1:09:12

I think this is self-conscious. I'm

1:09:14

like, you know, why do cancer

1:09:16

survivors or people who want to

1:09:18

promote public health talk about cancer

1:09:21

so much? Do they worship cancer?

1:09:23

Do they believe in cancer? Do

1:09:25

they love cancer? Are they in

1:09:27

denial about cancer? Is this a

1:09:29

self-conscious, sinful approach to cancer? No.

1:09:32

You acknowledge that it's doing harm

1:09:34

and you want to see the

1:09:36

harm stopped. You're like, why don't

1:09:38

you talk about God all the

1:09:41

time if I don't believe in

1:09:43

God is such a bad argument?

1:09:45

I guess the final apologetic that

1:09:47

I hear that makes me crazy

1:09:49

is you may not believe in

1:09:52

God, but he believes in you.

1:09:54

That's I think that that's awesome.

1:09:56

How to say... something without saying

1:09:58

anything at all. You may not

1:10:01

believe in Jesus, but he believes

1:10:03

in you. Oh, thank you for

1:10:05

that. Thank you for that nugget

1:10:07

of wisdom. Can I get an

1:10:09

amen? Thanks for joining me for

1:10:12

the broadcast. Keep on. Keep an

1:10:14

on. I'm going to go and

1:10:16

find the next protest that is

1:10:18

going on. Right now, my main

1:10:21

hub is Hands Off 2025, but

1:10:23

if you've got some out there,

1:10:25

put them in the comments and

1:10:27

we'll find rally points together. We

1:10:29

can go out and protest the injustice,

1:10:32

stand for what is right, and make

1:10:34

a difference. Be safe. I'll see you

1:10:36

later. Follow the Thinking Atheist

1:10:38

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1:10:40

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