0:01

Hello and welcome back to Things

0:03

You Can't Live Without. The podcast

0:05

where I, material scientist Dr. Anna

0:08

Pejowski, ask a special guest to

0:10

tell us one thing they can't

0:12

live without. Like last series, we

0:14

interrogate a host of experts to

0:17

find out how these items are

0:19

made, where their components come from

0:21

and how the future of those

0:24

items is being planned for. Joining

0:26

me today is Dr. Adam Motherford,

0:28

a scientist, writer and broadcaster, welcome

0:30

Adam. Hello Anna. And I'm also

0:33

joined by Mary Pierre Pacan, head

0:35

of science and partnerships at Rio

0:37

Tinto, who will be taking

0:39

us through the innovations in sourcing

0:42

and processing the materials that we

0:44

need for crucial scientific research. Welcome

0:47

Mary Pierre. Hi Anna, hi Adam. So Adam,

0:49

what is the one item that you can't

0:51

live without? Well, we had a

0:53

bit of a problem getting to this

0:55

point. Well, because when you asked me,

0:58

my initial response was poo poo. Do

1:00

you see you banned it? And it

1:02

was bodies. And then my second suggestion

1:05

was going to be temperature or low

1:07

temperatures in order to preserve the bodies

1:09

that we work on as geneticists, but

1:12

apparently cool is not a material. Not

1:14

a material, yeah, correct. So we've

1:16

gone for fringes. Fridges. And yes,

1:18

material scientists don't consider anything bleedy

1:20

or squishy to be a material.

1:23

No, thank you. Mary Pierre, what

1:25

do you think about fridges as

1:27

an item? Can you live without

1:29

a fridge? No. No, I can't.

1:31

And as like a lot of

1:33

people, I do own a fridge

1:35

and I do own a freezer,

1:37

but I don't put body part,

1:39

human body part in it. Last

1:42

summer, I went for a weekend

1:44

and I didn't close the door

1:46

properly. When I came back, nothing

1:48

in the freezer was proper for

1:50

safe consumption anymore and I will

1:53

leave the details out. It made

1:55

the freezer like very obvious that's

1:57

something that we need for L.

1:59

and for our general well-being. I'm

2:02

reading this book by Anna Ritchie,

2:04

and she's proposing data on how

2:07

access to clean water changed the

2:09

life expectancy out of different communities.

2:11

And it got me thinking, like,

2:14

how would it affect? different region

2:16

of the world where they don't

2:18

necessarily have access to electricity or

2:21

freezer or refrigerator to keep their

2:23

food safe or even vaccine in

2:25

certain medicine, how would that affect

2:28

their life expectancy and the quality

2:30

of life in general? It's totally

2:32

something we take for granted, isn't

2:34

it? So you thought fridges wasn't

2:36

an interesting option, Adam, but we've

2:38

already got into it. And the defrosting

2:40

thing is, I mean, yes, it's incredibly

2:43

annoying when you leave your freezer or

2:45

your freezer open and the food. goes

2:47

off. Imagine how bad it is when

2:50

you do that for a freezer which

2:52

is a minus 80 and contains literally

2:54

unique samples of DNA or tissue taken

2:56

from the ground from a fossil. That's

2:59

why minus 80 degree freezes in biology

3:01

labs have alarms on them. So that

3:03

sounds like a very useful feature

3:05

for sure. We're going to be

3:07

thinking much more about how important

3:10

the fridge has been, not only

3:12

in scientific research, as you've been

3:14

saying, Adam, but also to our

3:16

lives. I also really want to

3:18

get into how research and development

3:20

is helping innovation and progress in

3:23

general. The first Adam, I want

3:25

to get a bit more stuck into

3:27

you and your job, so you're

3:29

a geneticist and lecturer at University

3:31

of College London and... I know

3:34

some of your books have been

3:36

related to science, eugenics, race, a

3:38

brief history of everyone who ever

3:40

lived and how to argue with

3:42

a racist. Where did your interest

3:44

in genetics and the human body

3:46

first come from? Well I went

3:48

to university in fact to do medicine

3:51

and I had decided not to be

3:53

a doctor and I think the third

3:55

day when I just had no

3:57

particular interest in practicing medicine.

3:59

I finished a year and I wanted

4:01

to pass my exams and then I

4:04

transferred to genetics. It is the science

4:06

that underlies all bits of biology, right?

4:08

You know, it's young science. It's only

4:10

100 years old in any sort of

4:12

meaningful sense. The word gene was only

4:15

invented in 1900. But it is also

4:17

the study of families and inheritance and

4:19

sex and disease. And those are things

4:21

that have been preoccupying. people's minds

4:23

for well since people have had

4:26

minds yeah in the 90s I

4:28

started as an undergraduate in the

4:30

same year the human genome project

4:32

did so we were about to

4:34

enter this golden age of discovery

4:36

just by chance and go through

4:38

this process this sort of transformational

4:41

process in our understanding of genetics

4:43

which is ongoing and we're in

4:45

the thick of it now okay

4:47

well let's get back to fringes

4:49

and dead bodies Fridges and freezes

4:51

are really important pieces of equipment

4:54

for laboratories everywhere. Why is

4:56

that? Because bodies degrade, they

4:58

need to be maintained at certain

5:00

temperatures during life where all of

5:03

your tissues are being replaced by

5:05

very active processes to replace molecules

5:07

and to do the functions of...

5:10

and that all takes energy. As

5:12

soon as you turn off the

5:14

power supply, we start decomposing. The

5:17

bit that I'm interested in is

5:19

how bodies get preserved when they

5:22

die and there's a specific reason

5:24

for that, which is that

5:26

in the last 15, 20

5:28

years, we invented the ability

5:31

to extract DNA from people

5:33

and other animals who have

5:35

been dead for thousands, tens

5:37

of thousands and in some

5:40

cases hundreds of thousands of

5:42

years. And that has... completely

5:44

revolutionized our understanding of

5:47

evolution, a particularly human

5:49

evolution. Now the temperature

5:51

bit is relevant here

5:53

because DNA is well preserved at

5:55

cold temperatures but badly preserved

5:58

when it gets warm. So

6:00

we've got lots of DNA

6:02

from the northern hemisphere and the

6:04

further north you go the better preserved

6:06

it is. But we've got none, none

6:08

from Africa. And that's a real

6:11

shame because most of our evolution

6:13

occurred in Africa. Wow, so we need

6:15

cold temperatures and for that DNA

6:17

to have been stayed frozen basically

6:20

for thousands of years. Yeah, I think

6:22

I'm right in saying that the

6:24

oldest DNA we have so far

6:26

recovered is about a million years

6:29

old. It's not from human. I

6:31

think we've got some equine DNA

6:33

and we've got some plant DNA

6:35

from about that time. Animals or

6:37

plants that were buried in snow

6:40

and ice and have been compacted.

6:42

So they're really, really well preserved.

6:44

That is incredible isn't it? So that's why

6:47

you need these fringes and freezes in your

6:49

lab so that you can continue to preserve

6:51

those tissues and be able to get as

6:53

much information as possible out of them. Exactly.

7:01

But Maria, I'm guessing that Rio

7:03

don't do a lot of genetics

7:05

research, similar to what Adams described

7:07

you, but could you take us

7:10

through this sort of research and

7:12

development that does go on at

7:14

Rio Tinto? We actually do some

7:17

with some of our partners. So

7:19

one of the team we're working

7:21

with is looking at all kind

7:23

of bugs. bacteria and other organisms

7:26

that you can find in like

7:28

a mine site, for example. And

7:30

they're studying these organisms to see

7:32

if they could extract some of

7:35

the valuable material. For example, a

7:37

bacteria or bug that lives naturally

7:40

in a copper mine environment would

7:42

be able to sustain a high

7:44

level of copper in its own

7:47

organism and will survive to that

7:49

naturally. And understanding those types of

7:51

organism might help us find ways

7:54

to extract those material in a

7:56

very different manner than what we're

7:58

doing today. So there is some

8:01

study and they actually use those very

8:03

fancy fridge to keep the sample at

8:05

the right temperature and be able to

8:07

do the sequencing of these samples. Well,

8:09

I was just going to say that

8:11

caves and mine systems have become

8:13

an incredibly rich resource, not just

8:16

for the minerals that you're looking

8:18

for, but also for novel biology.

8:20

Because what we've discovered in the last

8:22

few years is that there's life everywhere

8:24

and you can go down like seven

8:27

or eight kilometers and find new bacteria.

8:29

As Marie Pierre is saying, they often

8:31

have extreme behaviors because they

8:33

live in these unusual environments.

8:35

We call them extremophiles. And

8:37

so we find life that

8:39

lives at extremely hot temperatures

8:41

in hot springs or ridiculously

8:43

cold temperatures, but also things

8:45

that process, for example, high

8:47

levels of copper because the

8:49

environment is such, that's what

8:51

they have to feed off

8:53

or methanogens who process methane

8:56

rather than... oxygen, looking in

8:58

caves and looking in mines

9:00

for extremophiles but for unusual

9:03

biology, has turned out to

9:05

be a very rich potential

9:08

source for new antibiotics. So

9:10

there is a real link

9:12

between environmental geology and both

9:15

genetics and subsequently medicine. That's

9:17

so interesting and it reminds me

9:20

of people might remember those headlines

9:22

from a few years ago where

9:24

scientists in Japan discovered that bacteria

9:26

were munching on plastics in landfill

9:29

sites they had evolved to

9:31

metabolized digest, I don't know

9:33

if that's the right word, these

9:35

polymers as food, and it sounds

9:37

as if they've also been munching

9:39

on copper and other minerals that

9:41

we might mine as well. Yeah,

9:43

I mean, the cliche, the line

9:45

from Jurassic Park is life will

9:47

find a way, and it is

9:49

true. It is mostly bacteria. Most

9:51

life on earth is bacteria, by

9:53

weight, by number, even on and

9:55

in you, you are more bacterial

9:57

cells than you are human cells.

10:00

Pretty much wherever we look we

10:02

find bacteria and similar types of

10:04

cells that are doing things that

10:06

we were previously unaware of So

10:08

I think our indeed departments should

10:10

always be talking more to each

10:12

other about What is in there

10:14

because if you're exploring It doesn't

10:16

matter whether it's geology or biology, we're

10:18

going to find new things which are

10:21

going to be interesting and potentially of

10:23

use. For sure. So Maripia as well

10:25

as the genetics research that you mentioned

10:27

that Rio is working on, what are

10:30

the other sort of major R&D areas?

10:32

There is so much, I was thinking

10:34

about it and it's like taking your

10:36

favorite child. But I'll try, I'll try

10:39

to share a few with you. There's

10:41

a team in our iron and titanium

10:43

business that is working with one of

10:45

the startup we invested in that are

10:48

looking at new way to use biocarbon

10:50

to replace fossil-based carbon in our process

10:52

that would have a tremendous impact

10:54

on our greenhouse gas emissions.

10:57

What's biocarbon? What do you

10:59

mean by that? So we

11:01

call biocarbon carbon that is

11:03

from biomass. So whether it's

11:06

parks, it's like trees, or

11:08

it could be other kind

11:10

of like biomass residue that

11:12

can be harvested in a

11:15

sustainable manner. Other projects, we're

11:17

also investigating carbon mineralization. So

11:19

it's a way that we

11:21

could potentially store CO2 in

11:23

a safe and permanent manner.

11:25

a rock form. So no

11:28

risk of leakage or anything

11:30

like that. There's also a

11:32

team called Newton looking at

11:34

Eepleaching of copper. So Eepleaching

11:36

is a technology where you build

11:38

some mountains of ore. So you

11:40

put it in a big pile,

11:43

once it's mine, and then you

11:45

will put a reagent on it.

11:47

And the region would just percolate

11:49

through the eep. and collect the

11:51

metal as it just percolates it.

11:53

So it's kind of a passive

11:55

way to extract material from the

11:57

ore and get it into solution.

11:59

So it's very low energy and

12:01

low impact on the environment. That's

12:04

not, stick it in a big

12:06

pile. Which would remove the need

12:08

for a very expensive smelter being

12:10

built and reduce the footprint in

12:12

general of a copper mining. So

12:14

these are all super exciting projects.

12:16

They all have one thing in

12:18

common. They have a reduced impact.

12:21

Whether it's less water use,

12:23

whether it's less land disturbance,

12:25

whether it's less energy consumption,

12:28

or greenhouse gas emission, and

12:30

burn impact in general and

12:32

societal impact in general, they

12:35

all aim at reducing that.

12:37

Awesome. As I said earlier,

12:39

most material scientists like me

12:42

won't go near anything squishy

12:44

or anything that is liable

12:46

to bleed on them. There's

12:48

that funny kind of... separation

12:50

in my mind between kind

12:52

of biological materials and my

12:54

materials, the material sizes materials. But

12:57

of course there are massive crossovers

12:59

in both. Do you either of

13:01

you have any guesses on how

13:04

many elements of the periodic table

13:06

are contained within a human

13:08

body? Do you know the answer already?

13:10

Oh, that's a great question. There's

13:12

118 elements. I would guess it's

13:14

fewer than 20. Maripia? I

13:17

would guess it's more than 50.

13:19

Okay. The answer is surprisingly low.

13:21

It's actually 21. Aye. I reckon

13:23

I could rank them. Got then?

13:26

So carbon oxygen hydrant, obviously.

13:28

The big ones. That's going

13:30

to be most of them.

13:32

Yeah. Then there's quite a

13:35

lot of phosphates because that's

13:37

one of the key elements

13:39

of DNA. Then there's going

13:42

to be plenty of iron,

13:44

magnesium calcium. and then lots of

13:46

other much more Tracy metals, not very good

13:48

at it. Yeah, yeah, you're doing really

13:50

well. There's a big one that you

13:53

haven't mentioned, if you think about like

13:55

hydration... Oh, sodium? Yes, sodium, exactly. I

13:57

guess you would need magnesium and

13:59

put... That is an excellent pub quiz

14:01

question. I wonder how many of my biology

14:04

colleagues could do 21 of them. Yeah, that's

14:06

so true. Yeah. So we've been talking

14:08

about mining and minerals, but also minerals

14:10

in the human body. One of the

14:12

kind of, the big metals in mining

14:14

is of course iron. And we know

14:16

that this is important to the human

14:18

body. What does that actually do, Adam?

14:20

It's so fundamental to human biology

14:22

because it's the oxygen carrying molecule

14:25

in red blood cells. And the

14:27

reason they're red is because they

14:29

have iron in the center of

14:32

them. Hemoglobin are protein molecules. The

14:34

oxygen is transferred in the lungs

14:36

to the center and carried bion

14:39

in the body. And that's why

14:41

our blood is red. I mean,

14:43

interestingly, not all organisms... Use iron

14:46

as the oxygen carrying molecule.

14:48

So for example crabs and

14:50

other crustaceans use copper and

14:52

so that is why the blood

14:55

of crustaceans is blue and not

14:57

red because copper is in their

14:59

oxygen carrying molecules instead of iron.

15:01

What? That is a great fact. Yes.

15:03

Marip, yeah. I was asking about

15:05

mining copper. How fundamental is it

15:08

to Rio's operation? We do have

15:10

quite a few operation in copper.

15:12

We have this huge mine in

15:14

Utah near Salt Lake City. Can

15:16

I cut copper? We have our

15:19

operation in Mongolia and a couple

15:21

of joint venture and a lot

15:23

of our resources around exploration are

15:25

turning towards copper. And the reason

15:27

for that is that the amount

15:29

of copper that will be required

15:32

for the... transition is tremendous. There's

15:34

estimate around in the public

15:36

domain that we'll need as

15:38

much copper between now and

15:40

2050 as ever been produced

15:42

by humans ever. Like since

15:44

the beginning of time since we

15:47

started to use copper. And

15:49

that includes the Bronze Age which

15:51

was really like big on copper.

15:54

Yeah so we need more copper

15:56

between now and 2050 than whatever

15:59

we've produced. So obviously, reciting

16:01

is a big part of it,

16:03

but we don't have enough copper

16:06

in circulation even to sustain our

16:08

needs for the energy transition. So

16:11

obviously, copper is going to be

16:13

critical moving forward. Think about AI,

16:15

all these data center and everything.

16:18

This will all require copper to

16:20

be implemented. So that's why copper

16:23

is such an important metal for

16:25

Rio Tinto. So what are you

16:27

doing about it? How are you

16:29

meeting that need? We are gaining

16:32

a lot of our resource towards

16:34

exploration of copper, but we're also

16:36

looking at different resources where we

16:38

can find copper. We launched last

16:41

year the Center for Future Material

16:43

in collaboration with five different universities.

16:45

We have a University of California,

16:48

Berkeley, that is working with us,

16:50

UBC in British Columbia, Canada. We

16:52

have wits in South Africa, ANU

16:55

in Australia, and the Center is

16:57

managed by Imperial College of

16:59

London. We put the challenge yourself

17:01

to look at the material required

17:03

for the energy transition. This was

17:06

launched to celebrate the 158 anniversary

17:08

of Rio Tinto. So looking at

17:10

what are the material required for

17:12

the energy transition, copper is obviously

17:15

one of them, but there's many

17:17

others. Where can we find those

17:19

materials? So is there different sources

17:21

than the one we've been exploiting

17:23

for a long time? And then

17:26

how can we extract those material

17:28

in the most efficient and

17:30

sustainable way? And there's a

17:32

big social component to the

17:34

center where we look at

17:36

how can we make those

17:38

operations socially acceptable for the

17:40

very nearby community, the first

17:42

owner, or the traditional owner,

17:45

the government, and the society

17:47

in general. Because... The time

17:49

between a copper deposit discovery

17:51

and actually moving it to

17:53

a mining operation and getting

17:55

copper out of the ground, the

17:57

average time is about 20 years.

18:00

20 years is a long time

18:02

when you think about the energy

18:04

transition and meeting all of those

18:06

requirements in the coming decades. So

18:09

we cannot wait 20 years to

18:11

have more copper available. So how

18:13

can we do differently? How can

18:15

we do with different type of

18:18

resources? Can we extract copper from

18:20

waste? We usually extract copper from

18:22

copper sulfide, but is there other

18:24

sources like copper oxide that can

18:27

be unlocked with different process? so

18:29

that to protect them from copper

18:31

mining of their blood. I think

18:33

that it would be in such small

18:35

quantities that you'd need a lot of

18:38

crabs. Good, okay. The crab community is

18:40

safe. It hasn't been proposed yet.

18:42

Good, okay. No, but seriously that

18:44

does sound amazing and looking at

18:46

it being a sort of necessary

18:49

for modern life, but making sure

18:51

that it is being done responsibly

18:53

and from lots of different angles

18:55

as well. Adam,

19:01

what in your research is exciting

19:03

you at the moment? I don't actually

19:05

do any wet work anymore. And

19:07

so even coming in and saying

19:09

the fridge is essential, it is

19:11

essential for my work as a

19:13

field, but it's not essential for

19:15

me. The fridge in our lab

19:17

is for keeping milk and beer

19:19

cold. So all of our work

19:21

is now computational and we get

19:23

huge data sets. and process and

19:25

look for patterns. We're looking for

19:27

patterns in DNA. So our genomes

19:30

are the most complex data sets

19:32

that exist in the world. So

19:34

as Marie Pierre was saying, we

19:36

need more data storage. We need

19:38

more internet capabilities and all of

19:40

those things are going to be

19:42

reliant on the extraction of rare

19:44

minerals. I mean, lithium is going to

19:47

be a big problem for battery

19:49

storage going forward. And so it

19:51

just shows the interconnectedness of disparate

19:53

fields, right? We need fridges to

19:55

do our work, and we need chemicals

19:57

that make those fridges, and we need

19:59

cop- wires to do things like this. Yeah,

20:02

exactly. And thinking about research

20:04

and development and how some of

20:06

it can be, I suppose, quite

20:08

fundamental. Do either of you have

20:10

a kind of way that you

20:12

sell that sort of fundamental research

20:14

to funders who would be needing

20:16

to invest in it? What you're

20:18

referring to is we sometimes

20:21

call blue skies projects, so

20:23

things that don't have direct,

20:25

applied, or translational economic value.

20:27

So curiosity-driven research is

20:30

more lucrative to society than

20:32

directed research. If you can show

20:34

the numbers on that and do

20:36

the economics and show that to

20:38

governments who tend to have shorter

20:41

lifespans than research projects, but if

20:43

you look at the economics of

20:45

the Apollo missions, the most conservative

20:47

estimates are that the return on

20:50

investment was seven to one. So

20:52

for every dollar spent, seven was

20:54

returned to the economy. And that

20:56

is what long-term planning in Blue

20:58

Skye's research and science can do.

21:01

And that's what governments should

21:03

be listening to. I really like

21:05

your comment here, Adam. And that's very

21:07

similar to the approach we're taking with

21:09

the Center for Future Materials. For us,

21:12

it's a new way of working for

21:14

the university also because often they are

21:16

used to being told like... work on

21:18

this specific issue with the industry, but

21:21

now we're telling them, tell us what

21:23

are the key breakthrough that needs to

21:25

happen. Sure. I want to do a

21:27

brief beat on thinking about the

21:29

future before we wrap up. And

21:32

Maripia, maybe I can come to

21:34

you first. And thinking about our

21:36

understanding of the planet and how

21:38

the research and development going on

21:40

at Rio is teaching us about

21:42

that. What key discoveries are you

21:44

looking forward to? What's on the

21:46

horizon that will really change? that

21:48

understanding. I might talk about two

21:51

things I'm very passionate about. One

21:53

is understanding biodiversity. So we pledged

21:55

to protect biodiversity, but I always

21:57

said that we're going to measure

21:59

biodiversity. What's a good level at

22:01

which we need to restore biodiversity?

22:04

The other one is the ability

22:06

to drill deep wells at a

22:09

much reduced cost. So drilling in

22:11

exploration is very expensive. Drilling in

22:13

mining is expensive. Drilling for geothermal

22:16

is extremely expensive. And it's a

22:18

big hurdle for the development of

22:20

a lot of project. So if

22:23

we were to develop... a drilling

22:25

technology that allows to go very

22:28

deep in the Earth cross at

22:30

a very low cost

22:32

that would unlock so

22:34

much potential around like

22:36

brine mining, potential around

22:38

geothermal power generation, carbon

22:40

mineralization, resource exploration, and even

22:43

things that are emerging like

22:45

a geological hydrogen would

22:47

be accelerate quite a bit by

22:49

the ability to drill at a lower

22:52

cost. Thank you. And same question for

22:54

you, Adam. What are the key things

22:56

that would represent breakthroughs that would really

22:59

teach us about how genetics

23:01

work? I think that the key thing for

23:03

us is we need more genomes, right? So

23:05

this is now a field which

23:08

is dominated by large data sets.

23:10

And the only true way we

23:12

can understand life on earth, human

23:14

life, human disease, human evolution, but

23:17

also the evolution of all species

23:19

is to get more DNA. It's

23:21

a data-driven issue. Geneticists have become

23:23

by and from politicians, but we've

23:26

also become historians as well. And

23:28

so really understanding the way that

23:30

evolution has progressed can only be

23:32

revealed if we just get more

23:34

data. So we're just data hungry

23:36

right now. And all of that's going

23:38

to need copper. Well, that brings us

23:40

the end of our discussion today. I

23:42

think from my perspective, maybe before I

23:44

accept any dinner invites from either of

23:47

you, I might just check the fridge

23:49

for dead bodies or... dead crabs we've

23:51

got on to now. Yeah, I've certainly

23:53

found a new appreciation for copper for

23:55

sure, you know, a material that is

23:57

primarily thought of as being one for

23:59

electronics. and for heat applications,

24:02

bodies, the bodies, it, the planet, all

24:04

of it, has copper in it. I

24:06

that's something that I never tire

24:08

of science is that is that there's

24:11

always new things to find out

24:13

about these familiar friends of materials. A

24:15

huge thank you to my guests this episode, Dr.

24:18

Adam Rutherford, and Rio Head of Science

24:20

and Partnerships, and partnerships, you both

24:22

so much. Thank you, you,

24:24

Thank you, Anna. Thank you, Anna. And

24:27

now it's time for me to

24:29

responsibly store away the first of of

24:31

this series 80 degrees Celsius for optimum freshness. You freshness. to

24:34

You can listen to more episodes

24:36

of things you can't live wherever you you

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