0:05

Hello, and welcome to Things

0:07

You Can't Live Without, the podcast where

0:09

I, material scientist Dr Anna Pajaiski, ask

0:11

a special guest to tell us the

0:13

one thing that they can't live without. We

0:16

also interrogate a host of experts to

0:18

find out how these items are made,

0:20

where their components come from, and how

0:22

the future of those things is being

0:24

planned for. In this episode,

0:26

I am delighted to be joined by

0:28

Mark Mangini, two -time Oscar -winning sound

0:30

designer. Welcome, Mark. Good morning, Anna. Thank

0:32

you for having me. And also

0:34

with us is Didier Assagel, vice

0:36

president of technology at Rio Tinto,

0:38

who will be taking us through

0:40

ways of creating from a better

0:42

place, using repurposing and recycling. Welcome,

0:45

Didier. Hello, Mark. Hi. Hello, Emma. Very

0:47

pleased to be with you today. Thank

0:49

you for joining us. So, Mark, you

0:51

know the premise of the podcast. What is the

0:53

one item that you can't live without? unequivocally,

0:56

a microphone, my portal into

0:58

the world of sound. Which makes

1:00

complete sense. So what

1:02

we're going to do in this episode is we're

1:04

going to learn more about how the art of

1:06

sound design, first of all relies on

1:08

the technology of microphones, of course, but also

1:10

your massive sound library. I want to get into

1:12

that, how you've cultivated that over a lifetime. The

1:16

commonality between you two is this

1:18

idea of repurposing and recycling and

1:20

the materials that make up the

1:22

microphones. You know, it is, of

1:24

course, a physical object as well

1:26

as a portal into the sound

1:28

world. So we will be talking

1:30

about how those processes can hopefully

1:32

ensure that there'll be many generations

1:34

of sound artists to come and

1:36

that you'll be able to have your

1:38

sort of prize technology as a sustainable object

1:41

as well in the future. I just want

1:43

to get into a bit of the background

1:45

of your career mark. As a sound designer,

1:47

you've worked on lots of movies that our

1:49

listeners will have heard of, winning two Academy

1:51

Awards. June, Mad Max Fury Road, for those.

1:53

And you've also been nominated six times. You

1:55

are obviously at the top of your game.

1:57

Movies that people would have heard of, Blade

2:00

Runner, The Fifth Element, Gremlins,

2:02

Aladdin, Anchorman, any more favourites

2:04

to name? I'm

2:06

a big fan of June, so it's

2:08

a real privilege to be with

2:10

you today. Thank you. I'm glad you

2:12

mentioned Dune because Denis Villeneuve is

2:14

a very progressive filmmaker and Dune takes

2:16

place in a universe that doesn't

2:19

exist. So everything you hear,

2:21

we have to create bespoke. And

2:24

his way of framing that

2:26

universe was, I want

2:28

to hear my movie as if

2:30

We had dropped a documentary film

2:32

crew on the planet of Arrakis

2:34

and everything we hear could have

2:36

been captured by the boom mic.

2:38

Right, so that's important for listeners.

2:40

So we're not talking about a

2:43

soundtrack, we're talking about the sounds

2:45

that would happen in that scene

2:47

and more, right? I'm responsible for

2:49

everything that you hear, the dialogue,

2:51

the sound effects, the ambiances, the

2:53

foley. I'm responsible for everything except

2:55

for the music and that's an

2:57

important distinction. although I am a

2:59

musician and a composer, and

3:01

those skills deeply inform the way

3:04

I design sound because I

3:06

bring to bear all the skills

3:08

that a composer uses, the

3:10

thoughtfulness of timbre, time,

3:12

tempo, dynamic, but with sounds

3:14

that are non -melodic. I love that description.

3:17

That's incredible. And if listeners want to hear

3:19

more about Foley artists, I interviewed the wonderful

3:21

Shelly Rodin in series one, so you can

3:23

go back and listen to that. Didier, do

3:25

you have any favorite film sound

3:27

moments that spring to mind.

3:30

Yes, it is Star Wars. a

3:33

great sounding film. The sound

3:35

designer Ben Burt achieved so much

3:37

greatness with the sounds from

3:39

that film. He used a similar

3:41

technique as Weave on Dune,

3:43

which was he built a universe

3:45

of sound out of found

3:47

sound. He didn't use a lot

3:49

of electronica synthesizers. He went

3:51

out into the real acoustic world,

3:53

as we did, to capture

3:55

the real world and repurpose it

3:57

in ways that you wouldn't

3:59

recognize. The wookie is a

4:01

baby bear sound. The lightsaber

4:03

is the sound of the arc

4:05

lamp of a film projector. That's

4:08

part of the fun and

4:10

the magic of what sound designers

4:12

do is this repurposing or

4:14

recontextualizing to make things feel unique

4:16

and yet oddly recognizable, but

4:19

you don't know why. Everything that

4:21

we can do in cinema

4:23

as artists to convince you that

4:25

a sound is real is

4:27

to start with something that is

4:29

real in the first place.

4:31

So there's this interesting antagonism in

4:34

my community of When do

4:36

we use electronic sound, which inherently

4:38

does not check that subconscious

4:40

box of, that sounds real?

4:42

One of my favorite sounds

4:44

is really, you know, the tight

4:46

fighters. Do you know how

4:48

they were produced? Absolutely. It

4:50

is made from an elephant's scream. He

4:52

didn't do anything to it. What? This

4:55

is the genius of Ben Burt.

4:57

He heard spaceship engine, and it's

4:59

just as... So,

5:03

he added a little bit of

5:05

doppler shift, you know, that change

5:08

in frequency when something travels by

5:10

you, the pitch shifts. That's

5:12

a tie fighter. That is so amazing.

5:14

And that really actually touches on the

5:16

point that I wanted to put to

5:18

you, Mark, which is that you must

5:20

have to have trained your mind to

5:23

have made those connections between sound and

5:25

totally random thing like an elephant screaming.

5:28

Yes, that's kind of the training

5:30

we go through, which is

5:32

to extrapolate or find metaphor in

5:34

the world. Yeah, I love

5:36

that. My example of my favorite

5:38

film sound is in Jurassic

5:40

Park. And particularly, you know, the

5:42

bass -y thump of the T -Rex's feet

5:44

before we see it for the first

5:46

time. It just transports you right there

5:48

into the car. You know, what's interesting

5:50

about that to me is the sort

5:53

psychological nature of that. It's

5:55

the audiences and our anticipation

5:57

that that's what a big

6:00

heavy thing should sound like.

6:02

Yeah. It should shake the

6:04

firmament and it should frighten

6:06

us. And in that idea

6:08

of being frightened comes a

6:10

deeply evolutionary thing going on

6:13

in sound, which is low

6:15

frequency sounds are terrifying because 100

6:17

,000 years ago, the things that

6:20

rumbled were things to truly be

6:22

frightened of, volcanoes and earthquakes. Now

6:24

we leverage that as a

6:26

cliche to induce fear that may

6:29

not have an actual origin,

6:31

especially in things like horror films.

6:33

You're always introducing some kind

6:35

of rumble to get the audience

6:37

on edge. That's amazing. So

6:39

you're kind of an emotional manipulator

6:42

through sound as well. Oh,

6:44

very much so because we are

6:46

constantly navigating our world with

6:48

sound. What

6:54

sort of microphones do you use? Let's

6:56

get an idea about the tech and

6:58

then we can talk about what they're

7:00

made of. Well, I have somewhere on

7:02

the order of 50 microphones. Amazing. A

7:05

microphone for me is much like a

7:07

lens to a photographer. And

7:09

all of these microphones have a

7:11

very specific purpose. So most of

7:13

my microphones are traditional. diaphragm

7:16

-based capture devices, diaphragm meaning

7:18

there's a very sensitive piece

7:20

of material that receives sound

7:22

waves, sound moves in waves

7:24

and it vibrates the diaphragm

7:26

and the diaphragm converts those

7:28

movements into electrical impulses that

7:31

you can record. But

7:33

I have a lot of

7:35

other specialty microphones. I

7:37

have hydrophones. Microphones designed to

7:39

work underwater. I have

7:41

EMF microphones that capture electromagnetic

7:43

frequencies. I have contact

7:45

microphones. What other... kind of crazy

7:47

microphones do I have. I

7:49

have subsonic microphones designed to capture

7:52

only those frequencies well below

7:54

human hearing. So that's a broad

7:56

description of the types of

7:58

microphones that I have. That is

8:00

quite a box of tricks. I've

8:03

heard about your rig for

8:05

rain sounds and I really

8:07

want to hear more about

8:09

it. Well, that rig came

8:12

about as an outgrowth of my

8:14

philosophy, which is How do

8:16

I place my microphones, hence

8:18

the audience, as an extension

8:20

of the audience's ears? Rain

8:22

is particularly antagonistic to sound

8:24

recording because you don't want

8:26

to put expensive equipment out in

8:28

moisture. So I had to

8:30

figure out a way to

8:32

protect the equipment while capturing

8:35

rain the way we hear it when

8:37

we're stuck out in the rain

8:39

so I built a canopy for my

8:41

microphone rig but it had to

8:43

be an inert material because I didn't

8:45

want to hear the rain dropping

8:47

on my canopy I wanted it to

8:49

only capture the sound of the

8:51

rain around the microphone. So

8:53

I found a particular kind of foam

8:55

that would absorb water, that would

8:57

not reflect sound. You wouldn't hear tick,

8:59

tick, tick, tick, tick, because the

9:01

microphones are right there. And I could

9:03

run for about 10 minutes before

9:05

the sponge material absorbed enough water that

9:08

it would start to leak. Now,

9:10

mind you, I'm out in the middle

9:12

of the rain. So I could

9:14

only be out in the rain for

9:16

10 minutes till I had to

9:18

take off my cotton jacket and ring

9:20

it out. and then go back

9:22

out into the rain. Now, what that

9:24

achieved was recordings that I used

9:26

for Blade Runner 2049. We had a

9:28

lot of rain sounds. That is

9:30

incredible. You know, listening

9:32

to you, Marc, I think

9:34

what you describe is

9:36

really fantastic in terms of

9:38

innovation and breaking the

9:40

rules. It's thinking

9:42

out of anything. Really

9:45

impressive. So getting

9:47

back to... You mentioned

9:49

your microphones have got diaphragms in, they've

9:51

obviously got a structure. Any

9:53

guesses about what materials go into

9:55

making your microphones? The good microphones

9:58

almost always have an alloy like

10:00

aluminum as a casing, as the

10:02

body that contains the parts and

10:04

the shape of that body is

10:06

critical in terms of how the

10:08

microphone captures the sound and the

10:10

way you want it to capture

10:13

sound. And the diaphragms, I would

10:15

love to know more about the

10:17

science of those materials because the

10:19

diaphragm of a microphone mimics what

10:21

your eardrum does. Yeah, I did

10:23

some research into this and in

10:25

a way I was surprised to

10:28

read that sometimes those diaphragms are

10:30

made of very thin plastic material. Which

10:32

surprised me because we think of plastic

10:34

as being quite cheap and quite weak

10:36

as a material. But thinking about it,

10:39

it's probably one of the most similar

10:41

synthetic materials we have to human body

10:43

materials. So yeah, I was sort of

10:45

surprised to think like, oh, it's just

10:47

plastic membrane that's so important in the

10:49

working of it. Did you?

10:51

Any further guesses on microphone materials? I

10:53

think you say muddles. Yeah.

10:55

Yeah. If I think about

10:58

the materials that maybe Rio

11:00

Tinto would be, involved in.

11:02

In some microphones there are

11:04

magnets involved and probably sort

11:06

of alloys of iron, boron,

11:08

neodymium, maybe would be ones

11:10

that Rio would be involved

11:12

in. Yes, I would say

11:14

that the first one that

11:16

Mark was lighting, aluminium, Rio

11:18

Tinto. is really super well

11:20

involved. Aaron, as well,

11:23

you know, obviously, overall rehearse

11:25

is quite challenging for

11:28

different reasons. You know, it's

11:30

a type of material that economical and

11:32

environmental viability, it's a big technical challenge.

11:34

Yeah, and actually that brings me on

11:36

to what I wanted to talk to

11:38

you about in terms of sustainability and

11:40

recycling, because we think of metals, we're

11:42

familiar with the fact that they are

11:44

recycled, we put them in our recycling

11:46

bins. But I wanted dig

11:48

much deeper into those processes and

11:50

how recycling is only going to

11:52

become a much more important part

11:54

in both the Rio business, but

11:56

also in the products that are

11:58

ultimately made out of their materials

12:00

and how that fits into a

12:02

circular economy. Didier, how

12:05

does repurposing and recycling come

12:07

into your very different line of

12:09

work? Yeah, very different. I

12:12

think there is no ideal recipe.

12:15

I really believe It's all

12:17

about having an open

12:19

mindset by looking to what

12:21

is already available externally

12:23

in the open world, but

12:26

as well internally. It's

12:28

about having no hesitation to

12:30

take, to adjust, and

12:33

to adapt to your current situation

12:35

and purpose. I believe it's

12:37

really about having an open mind.

12:39

An open mind is so vital

12:41

in cinema, certainly in cinema sound,

12:43

because to create, to

12:45

design sound is to be

12:47

open to anything, to sort

12:50

of approach a problem with

12:52

no preconceived notions. Exactly. You

12:54

know, these things maybe

12:57

20 years ago from

12:59

an economical technology standpoint

13:01

were possible, but that

13:03

now became possible. The

13:05

world is dynamic, technology

13:07

is evolving. One

13:10

best example is what

13:12

we call it leaching. It

13:14

bleaching is about recycling

13:16

copper tails via bacteria which

13:18

will process this tail.

13:20

So that's an example of

13:22

how you're sort of

13:24

repurposing what would otherwise be

13:26

classified as waste and

13:28

getting useful stuff from it.

13:30

Exactly. It's a

13:32

way to maximise what's the

13:35

nature, the earth. Geethers.

13:37

You just made me think of a

13:39

nice little wooded area behind my home

13:41

and there's a lovely barn owl that

13:43

I wanted to record. But of course

13:45

you can't ask a barn owl to

13:47

speak on command. So we put out

13:49

what we call a drop rig. We

13:52

put a recorder out there and we

13:54

turn it on and we leave it

13:56

for 24 hours in the tree branch

13:58

right near where the owl existed. And

14:00

I recorded for 24 hours and I

14:02

came back and I put that recording

14:04

of 24 hours into my timeline, my

14:07

sound processing tool, and

14:09

in that 24 hours

14:12

was about 15 seconds

14:14

of great owl vocalizations.

14:16

Amazing. Didier, tell us

14:18

about biocarbon and what that's all about.

14:20

Yes, for sure. Biocarbon

14:22

is a project

14:24

that we are developing

14:27

within the context

14:29

of our decarbonization strategy.

14:31

The purpose of

14:33

that is really to

14:35

replace fossil anthracite,

14:37

fossil coal. And biocarbon

14:39

is a high -quality

14:41

metallurgical carbon which

14:43

could be used in

14:45

our processes based

14:48

on wood recycling and

14:50

with no incremental

14:52

CO2 emissions. That's

14:54

biocarbon. So is it a material that

14:56

would be used when you process

14:58

iron ore, you need a lot of

15:00

carbon involved? Would it be instead

15:02

of using coke and coal, you could

15:04

use this carbon that came from

15:06

wood. Exactly. Assuming it

15:08

works, it could be a

15:10

key element to decarbonise the steel

15:12

industry, which is one of the largest

15:15

industries in the world. But as

15:17

well, it could be

15:19

titanium feedstock production, because

15:21

you need to remove oxygen

15:23

from the ore, and

15:25

a way to remove

15:27

the oxygen is using

15:29

carbon. But the value,

15:31

the beauty of biocarbon

15:34

is you develop high

15:36

quality carbon with no

15:38

incremental CO2 emissions. And

15:40

you don't need to mine for

15:42

cilantro site. Knowing that would

15:44

be based on wood and

15:46

especially on wood residues. Brilliant. One

15:49

thing that really surprised me

15:51

is it's not just about sort

15:53

of repurposing and recycling in

15:55

an outward looking. where you're

15:57

kind of taking feedstocks and

15:59

you're recycling and making existing products

16:01

greener. It's also about looking

16:03

internally and finding ways that you

16:05

can repurpose and recycle in

16:07

terms of your own processes, your

16:09

own ways of doing things

16:11

that aren't actually about making products.

16:13

It's just about making the

16:15

business more efficient. Exactly. Mark,

16:23

I want to touch on your

16:25

relationship with recycling because we talked a

16:27

bit earlier about you reusing sounds

16:29

and I'd love to know to what

16:31

extent is recycling or do you

16:33

think of recycling as part of your

16:36

portfolio? I've never made that direct

16:38

association but in that context it's certainly

16:40

a way to look at the

16:42

way I work, which is to say

16:44

there's this universe that all of

16:46

us in sound aspire to, which is

16:48

to have everything that you hear

16:50

in a film be an original recording

16:52

for that project. But time

16:54

and budget have never allowed for

16:56

that and may never allow for

16:58

that. Thus, We record

17:00

sounds constantly and master them

17:02

to be part of a

17:04

sound library, a collection of

17:06

sounds that is browsable and

17:09

recallable. So I am constantly

17:11

recycling, if you will, sounds

17:13

from my sound library when

17:15

I'm not able to go

17:17

out and record the new

17:19

sounds that I desire to

17:21

use. Do you have

17:23

any questions for Didier about what elements

17:25

might be recycled or recycled in the future?

17:27

Well, I have a sort

17:30

of a personal concern because

17:32

it's harder and harder to

17:34

find a recycling center here

17:36

in Los Angeles. And I

17:38

generate a fair amount of

17:40

electronic waste. And I know

17:42

there's a lot of rare

17:44

elements in my electronic waste

17:47

that could or aren't extracted

17:49

or repurposed. And I'm just

17:51

curious what the future is

17:53

for electronic equipment. Are there

17:55

advances being made on how

17:57

to recycle electronic waste? Well,

17:59

it's a super challenge equation,

18:01

but the fundamental element is

18:04

how can we develop technologies

18:06

which will allow to recycle

18:08

these things in an economic

18:10

way. You need to target

18:12

multi metals, multi elements, you

18:14

know, in order to be

18:16

able to build the business

18:18

case, the business value. and

18:20

address the cost issue. Another

18:23

way to recycle sometimes is

18:25

about using an existing asset,

18:27

an existing process, which is

18:29

already in place and recover

18:31

material like rehearse. In

18:33

Rio Tinto, an example is

18:35

we are recovering Scandium,

18:37

which is a type of

18:40

critical material, type of

18:42

rehearse, access challenges. How

18:44

can you make economically

18:46

viable? One of the

18:48

potential avenue is exactly

18:50

that is developing synergies

18:52

with an existing already

18:54

processes in place, which

18:56

will address the cost

18:58

dimension. Electronics, they're

19:00

so complicated. There are

19:02

so many elements that

19:04

go into making those

19:06

sorts of components. And

19:09

if you think about all of the energy

19:11

that it takes and effort to extract all

19:13

of those different elements and process the parts

19:15

and then construct them all together into an

19:17

amplifier or a phone or a laptop or

19:19

whatever. To then try and

19:21

reverse that process. And

19:23

if you had 50 elements that

19:25

went into it, to try and

19:28

get 50 piles of all of

19:30

those different elements out of it

19:32

again is virtually impossible. These components

19:34

that we make are so finely

19:36

engineered that the materials are mixed

19:38

at such a small level that

19:40

we can never really hope to

19:42

extract them all and recycle them.

19:44

as if they were fresh. I

19:46

guess that's the importance of the

19:48

repurposing part, is that we wouldn't

19:50

necessarily want to turn an amplifier

19:52

into piles of material again. We

19:54

might want to turn it into

19:56

a different type of amplifier or

19:58

into a microphone, even changing what

20:00

it is, but not exactly deconstructing

20:03

it. down to its individual part.

20:05

And this is what we mean

20:07

by circular economy, right, is that

20:09

the repair culture just has to

20:11

become much more embedded in these

20:13

products that we use. Maybe the

20:15

innovation, you know, technology improvement can

20:17

bring part of the solution. That's

20:19

where we need to keep going

20:21

in terms of innovation and maybe

20:23

it would partly look at dress

20:25

with concern. I want to end

20:27

on an optimistic note. And

20:30

Didier, I'll come to you first. When

20:32

it comes to this repurposing and recycling

20:34

work, what outcomes are you

20:36

hoping for? What impact do you want to

20:38

have? Well, I

20:40

would expect the least

20:42

impact from an environmental

20:44

standpoint and the best

20:46

outcome. to our

20:48

in terms of communities. What

20:50

do you mean by that? In fact,

20:52

you know, bringing the best to the

20:54

society and our community. Practically,

20:57

what does it mean? Can

20:59

we avoid waste? Can we

21:01

maximize, you know, what the

21:03

earth gave us? What about

21:05

the sort of the size

21:07

and the scale of this?

21:09

What does it mean at

21:11

scale for Fariotinto? It's all

21:13

about improving performance, improving

21:15

energy efficiency. We

21:18

have an active development

21:20

in renewable energy. Wind,

21:22

solar, we are testing

21:25

electric car, trucks, bioiron,

21:28

biocarbon. New way

21:30

of producing titanium metal, fantastic

21:32

metal, you know, which has

21:34

a fantastic ratio, weight and

21:36

strength, which will open as

21:38

well, new field for the

21:40

world. We are still work.

21:42

But we're focusing on that.

21:45

And Mark, how about for you?

21:47

What will future technology allow us

21:49

to do when it comes to

21:51

sound design in your work? I

21:53

would say the first is

21:56

the development of microphones that can

21:58

capture in a true binaural,

22:00

meaning the way we hear, receiving

22:02

with two points of access,

22:04

immersive. content. The other area is

22:06

artificial intelligence. Of course. The

22:09

ability of artificial intelligence to inform

22:11

sound in a film through

22:13

the creation of sounds that we've

22:15

never heard before. Going back

22:17

to our conversation at the start,

22:19

the way that you've trained

22:22

your mind to make those connections

22:24

between... Yeah. a physical object

22:26

and a sound that would represent

22:28

something entirely different. That skill

22:30

is something that you've honed over

22:32

decades of work. You could

22:35

maybe put a description into an

22:37

AI, make a thing that

22:39

sounds like this. But you still

22:41

need your skill set to be able

22:43

to make those connections. Hopefully. Thank

22:45

you for saying that. You led me

22:47

right into what I wanted to

22:49

say, which is that it can only

22:51

generate through iteration from something that

22:53

has already existed. So that

22:55

in and of itself speaks to

22:57

this idea that AI, to

23:00

me, is never very original. It

23:02

can originate ad infinitum, but

23:04

it will always be reflective of

23:06

something that has already existed.

23:08

The corpus is built out of

23:10

my work. To

23:14

me, creativity is about

23:16

the fusion of two disparate

23:18

ideas into something that

23:20

is greater than the sum

23:22

of its parts. 100%. Maybe

23:25

in a few years time you'll

23:27

have completely sustainable titanium microphone made

23:29

with bio -iron and all sorts. I'm

23:32

looking forward to that. Whoever's on the end of

23:34

the boom mic will thank you for that, I'm

23:36

sure. Well, it takes to hold a boom pole.

23:39

Oh my God, the arm shake. Well,

23:42

we've come to the end of our

23:44

conversation. A huge thank you to my

23:46

guests this episode, sound designer Mark Mangini

23:48

and Rio Tinto's vice president of technology,

23:51

Didier Arsagell. Thank you both so much.

23:53

Thank you, Anna. Thank you. You

23:58

can listen to more episodes of things

24:00

you can't live without wherever you get your

24:02

podcasts. And don't forget to follow Raight

24:04

Emery US to make sure that you don't

24:06

miss an episode.