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based on how you buy. Hello

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and welcome to this day

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a history podcast from Radiotopia.

0:31

My name is Jody Avergan.

0:33

This day we are marking five

0:36

years of doing this show which

0:38

started in March of 2020 a

0:40

very normal time in America and

0:43

the world. Here we are at

0:45

another very normal time. Nicole

0:47

here as always Nicole Hammer of

0:49

Vanderbilt and Kelly Carter Jackson of

0:52

Wellesley. Hello there and happy five

0:54

years of this day. Hello there,

0:56

five years. I remember us hiding out

0:58

in our closets and recording the first

1:01

year episodes. And look at how far we've

1:03

come. I'm still in a closet. You're in

1:05

a hotel. I know. I'll never forget. I

1:07

mean, I can never forget this day because

1:09

the day my daughter was born, March 12th

1:11

of 2020 is like the day the world

1:13

shut down. So five years to me always

1:16

feels pretty special, but. Yeah, and look,

1:18

we're doing this as part

1:20

of our Some Sunday Context

1:22

series, which are the Sunday

1:24

Conversations. We're trying to connect

1:27

history to the present. And

1:29

we're also doing this on YouTube.

1:31

So shout out to everyone watching

1:33

on YouTube. This is also a

1:35

little bit of a celebration. You

1:38

know, we don't have to run

1:40

through too many of the stats

1:42

and so forth. And hit a

1:44

few even before then. I think.

1:46

The last time I checked I haven't

1:49

run the stats in like six months

1:51

or so, but definitely the 60s is

1:53

the most covered decade We've changed the

1:55

name of the show once that was

1:57

not that We have this exact same

2:00

we get emails from time to time

2:02

and got a few as I put

2:04

a call out for any questions and

2:06

comments around the fifth anniversary. People ask

2:08

about the music all the time. So

2:10

our theme music is by Teen Days.

2:12

This guy in Vancouver, who writes great

2:14

music, shout out to him. And you

2:16

can actually download the theme song on

2:18

our website, this daypot.com. So go check

2:20

that out if you want the theme

2:22

song. We're also looking forward. There's a

2:24

lot more on the way. I think

2:26

people have heard us talk about next

2:28

year a big. year-long initiative we're going

2:30

to do around 2026 and the America's

2:32

250th birthday. And today I thought what

2:34

we could do is do something that

2:36

I think flows into that a little

2:38

bit, but I wanted to just talk

2:41

with you about what I see as

2:43

some of the big lessons and themes

2:45

we've learned about American history and see

2:47

how they feel like they connect to

2:49

now and then heading into the 250th

2:51

next year. I'll just say, I think

2:53

I've said this on the show before,

2:55

but to me, my relationship to this

2:57

show has changed in the last year

2:59

or so, in that at first, I

3:01

really loved, and I think the kind

3:03

of strength of the show was this

3:05

sort of jumping around, and we would

3:07

just like be in one year and

3:09

then be in another year, and we

3:11

would dive into a story and often

3:13

a little small one, often an esoteric

3:15

one, and we would just spend some

3:17

time in it, and then we'd dip

3:19

out and then we dip out and

3:21

move out and move on and move

3:23

on. You two are historians, so you've

3:25

probably owned this all along, but I

3:27

will confess that only in the last

3:29

year or so have I kind of

3:32

been able to just have a little

3:34

bit of like own a little bit

3:36

of like, okay, I think I see

3:38

some patterns here. And it's that whole

3:40

like, we were collecting dots for a

3:42

long time and now I've seen the

3:44

hell those dots connect. And so I'm

3:46

in that. The newsletter has been helped.

3:48

Yeah, pretty much so. And I mean,

3:50

you know, and I'm an amateur at

3:52

this history of this history stuff. I

3:54

want to own that a little bit

3:56

more. I have found it be a

3:58

very sort of satisfying phase in my

4:00

experience doing the show with the two

4:02

of you. And it's a big part

4:04

of what I think I'm excited about

4:06

for this year, when I think we

4:08

need some of that perspective, and then

4:10

next year when it's like America's going

4:12

to be... telling itself a story about

4:14

itself as it gets 250 and I

4:16

kind of feel like we have some

4:18

insight to offer now and so yeah.

4:20

What do you want to do? You

4:23

want to run through some of these

4:25

sort of basic themes and none of

4:27

you have to be a huge huge

4:29

surprise but these are some things that

4:31

we've learned so we're going to do

4:33

five themes for five years and these

4:35

are five things that have jumped out

4:37

to me across the many many many

4:39

stories we've done. So the first one

4:41

people are petty. a lot of times

4:43

when you're examining a historical moment, it

4:45

is a very fruitful first question to

4:47

ask, which is, who has beef with

4:49

who? You know, who's annoyed? Who has

4:51

backstory? Who's in the bad headspace? Sometimes

4:53

it's even like, you guys know I'm

4:55

obsessed with this, but what was the

4:57

weather like that day? Was someone running

4:59

on low sleep? Was it really hot?

5:01

You know, like, just that little texture

5:03

of people's interpersonal relationships. just defines these

5:05

massive events over and over and over

5:07

I found. So I think that's so

5:09

important because we do tend to go

5:11

straight toward ideology or like end goals

5:14

for why people are doing something. But

5:16

if you've ever met people, you know

5:18

that they're not really driven as much

5:20

by those things as much as they

5:22

are by like that bitchy crackers again.

5:24

Or to me, I feel like it's

5:26

the petty stuff that... really doesn't matter.

5:28

You know, I feel like all of

5:30

that sort of plays into how we

5:32

perceive people and what we want to

5:34

blow up to make big or whatever.

5:36

But I like knowing that people in

5:38

the past were just as petty as

5:40

we are because like it's easy to

5:42

like mark it down to like social

5:44

media and like our little grievances and

5:46

annoyances being part of something that's wrong

5:48

with us today, but it's something that's

5:50

always been wrong with us. Yeah. by

5:52

accident and not of my own volition.

5:54

I watched about 15 minutes of Hamilton

5:56

for the first time. I thought you

5:58

said you've never seen me! yourself. I've

6:00

never, I've never, I've never seen it.

6:02

No, it's about beef. My daughter, my

6:05

daughter was very interested in watching it

6:07

and so it got put on a movie

6:09

night and mostly I, it's just, it's not

6:11

for me. I just couldn't, I left the

6:14

room. But I will say in that little

6:16

bit that I picked up, it does a

6:18

very good job of that. The small beef,

6:20

the texture, the way that people are just

6:22

annoyed with each other for decades and so

6:24

I will give it. Yeah, and there's

6:26

nothing like the genre of hip-hop

6:29

to play a B, right? And

6:31

some pettings. I will say, and

6:33

my praise of Hamilton was, I

6:36

don't know why, I don't have

6:38

this vendettigous Hamilton, but it's just,

6:40

every time I think, I've brushed

6:43

up against him, it's not, it's

6:45

just, every time I think, I've

6:47

brushed up against him, it, it's

6:49

not, it's not, it's, it's not,

6:51

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

6:53

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, play

6:56

out those those beefs. So we'll move

6:58

on to the next theme, but I

7:00

also want us to sort of keep

7:02

a log as we go of which

7:05

ones feel like they're useful for this

7:07

moment right now. And I will say,

7:09

as dire as the consequences of these

7:11

beefs are that we're living in right

7:14

now, like we've never maybe had

7:16

a collection of pettier people

7:18

in charge than this- Beef-

7:20

Petty officer! So, you know, yes.

7:22

Well, how central vengeance is to

7:25

his administration is remarkable. I

7:27

mean, even what's going on

7:29

in Columbia is all about petty.

7:31

Yeah. You're right. All right. What's your

7:33

next big theme? Our next big

7:35

theme is a history full of

7:37

mere disasters. There's so many episodes

7:40

we did where the world could

7:42

have ended. Our many, many presidents

7:45

could have been assassinated. There's so

7:47

many. attempts when we talked about

7:49

the atomic bomb that or not

7:51

the atomic bomb. It was armed

7:54

and it fell. Yes, yes, thank

7:56

you. And it's like, wait, what?

7:58

We could be that. close to

8:00

being on the brink of nuclear

8:03

disaster it just boggles the mind

8:05

and then I can't even recall

8:07

how many near presidential assassinations we've

8:09

had at least a handful you

8:11

know I think everyone's at some

8:13

point and I think it just

8:15

shows how violent America is. We

8:17

are always sort of on the

8:19

razor's edge of some sort of

8:22

catastrophe and also somehow we find

8:24

a way to bring it back.

8:26

Those episodes have always just sort

8:28

of like even get me little

8:30

chills just thinking about what might

8:32

have been, what could have been.

8:34

Historians study contingency and I think

8:36

those are the moments where you're

8:39

like Okay, yeah, like if one

8:41

thing tips the other way suddenly

8:43

you are in a nightmare scenario.

8:45

The missile crisis, like, yeah, it's

8:47

no joke. I find those moments

8:49

absolutely fascinating because there's a little

8:51

bit of like there but for

8:53

the grace of God, but it's

8:56

just like, we're on a razor's

8:58

edge quite a lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

9:00

so is there a weird... Is

9:02

there any part of you that's

9:04

like comforted or contextualized by that?

9:06

Does it put the disasters that

9:08

do happen in a little more

9:10

context that they are actually not

9:13

that big of outliers given how

9:15

many so near misses there have

9:17

been? I mean, I find them

9:19

interesting because they scratch the creative

9:21

part of my brain, but I

9:23

don't know that I find them

9:25

comforting. Even as I was saying

9:27

that I didn't find myself comforting.

9:30

I'm not comforted by the fact

9:32

that we are not that many

9:34

steps away from people making bad

9:36

decisions. Actually, maybe one step away

9:38

from a person making a bad

9:40

decision. And sometimes it's not even

9:42

a bad decision. It's just a

9:44

mistake or carelessness or things that

9:47

happen. And I never know what...

9:49

to make of that. You would

9:51

hope that people will be a

9:53

little bit more careful when things

9:55

like this almost happened, but people

9:57

never really are. We forget and

9:59

we move on. I also feel

10:01

like we're living in a quarter

10:04

century where we keep losing the

10:06

coin toss. You know what I

10:08

mean? Like, things have not fallen

10:10

in a good direction since Bush

10:12

v Gore. And certainly, I mean,

10:14

obviously, even among all the scary

10:16

disasters, there's like different levels. This

10:18

country has survived assassinations and even

10:21

wars, but we've done an episode

10:23

about being one button away from...

10:25

the US and the Soviet Union

10:27

sending nuclear missiles at each other,

10:29

that's a whole other level. So

10:31

it's important to keep in mind

10:33

when we say near disaster that

10:35

can mean a number of different

10:37

things. Yeah. Well and by near

10:40

disaster we also mean there were

10:42

mechanisms in place that acted as

10:44

safeguards and snapped in and at

10:46

a moment when the safeguards are

10:48

all being taken away I feel

10:50

less comforted. Oh yeah, oh yeah,

10:52

I do too. Let's move on

10:54

to our next one, our next

10:57

theme theme. Which is also not

10:59

uplifting. Which is fine, that's a

11:01

history is not a bedtime story.

11:03

No, it's a nightmare. One big

11:05

theme that comes through again and

11:07

again is this idea of backlash.

11:09

That for every story of progress

11:11

that we have to tell a

11:14

victory for greater inclusion, for more

11:16

freedom, what happens very quickly after

11:18

is a story of backlash. And

11:20

it's kind of incredible that personal

11:22

liberties and sort of like citizenship

11:24

and rights have grown as much

11:26

as they have over the course

11:28

of US history, given how persistent

11:31

and how sustained backlash is in

11:33

American history. This is something I

11:35

think a lot about today, because

11:37

one of the things that I've

11:39

learned from this show is how

11:41

brief those windows of opportunity are

11:43

for what I think of as

11:45

progressive and positive change. Obviously, one

11:48

that we go back to again

11:50

and again is reconstruction. Yeah, and

11:52

how breath-taking it is. that you

11:54

have this moment where you can

11:56

legitimately call it. the United States'

11:58

second founding, that we rewrote the

12:00

social and political contract, that millions

12:02

of people were freed from enslavement

12:05

and were granted citizenship and were

12:07

granted the right to vote, and

12:09

there was an opportunity to rebuild

12:11

the United States in a much

12:13

more liberty-driven way, and that window

12:15

slammed shut. so fast. And they

12:17

would take both good and bad

12:19

from that, right? Like, so much

12:22

was accomplished in just a few

12:24

years. Yeah. And you only got

12:26

a few years. Yeah, that was

12:28

it. And in some cases, not

12:30

even a few years, I mean,

12:32

it was that swift and that

12:34

fast. You can never rest on

12:36

your laurels. You know, like when

12:39

you get these victories, you think

12:41

everyone passed themselves on the back

12:43

and it's going like, all right,

12:45

we're good. And it's like, no,

12:47

you hold and you hold and

12:49

you hold because you cannot sort

12:51

of relinquish that victory because it

12:53

can be snatched away at any

12:55

moment. And we are absolutely seeing

12:58

that. we've talked about this on

13:00

the show a little bit before

13:02

but the kind of other thing

13:04

I just am puzzling through is

13:06

how asymmetrical sometimes this can be

13:08

so your moments of progress or

13:10

your little inches towards progress often

13:12

met with a backlash that feels

13:15

at least much much much much

13:17

bigger it's not two steps forward

13:19

one step back sometimes it's one

13:21

step forward three steps back you

13:23

know which means you're going backwards

13:25

if you do the math but

13:27

you know it's not just kind

13:29

of oh it swings in one

13:32

direction swings in the other backlash

13:34

is the right word. It's an

13:36

active sort of hard push in

13:38

the other direction. And this is,

13:40

you know, I think a lot

13:42

of it has to do with

13:44

the fact that, you know, when

13:46

you're gaining rights, you maybe don't

13:49

know what you have in front

13:51

of you. And then the people

13:53

who feel like rights are being

13:55

taken away from them, which I

13:57

generally think is not the case,

13:59

it's not a zero-sum game in

14:01

this country, but the people who

14:03

feel like... rights are being taken

14:06

away from them because they have

14:08

felt there's a sense of loss

14:10

there. That's why I think a

14:12

lot of that sort of really

14:14

over reaction in the backlash comes

14:16

from this kind of like when

14:18

you're coming at rights from two

14:20

different directions it leads to this

14:23

symmetrical. But also people who are

14:25

driving backlash are the ones who

14:27

have the most social and political

14:29

and economic power. But it's because

14:31

they feel it right but they

14:33

feel it's slipping away. Yeah right

14:35

or right but then they have

14:37

the resources to... fight back in

14:40

a way that folks who are

14:42

trying to scrape for new rights

14:44

don't have access to those things.

14:46

But obviously a huge, I mean,

14:48

the defining element I think in

14:50

our politics and culture right now

14:52

is backlash. And I think that's

14:54

a huge part of when we

14:56

look to next year, I think

14:59

that's going to be one of

15:01

the big defining stories that we

15:03

tell you. Any other thoughts? But

15:05

here's the positive thing that I

15:07

just want to say very quickly,

15:09

which is the thing that it

15:11

has made me think is that

15:13

we got to open. And so

15:16

we have to be ready for

15:18

when it does. And I think

15:20

that there's something really useful about

15:22

that because it encourages all of

15:24

us to think about what is

15:26

the world you want to live

15:28

in. And how are you going

15:30

to get there? Yeah. Yeah. In

15:33

print or here on the podcast,

15:35

the New Yorker brings you thoughtfulness

15:37

and depth and even humor that

15:39

you can't find anywhere else. So

15:41

please join me every week for

15:43

the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever

15:46

you listen to podcasts. Guess what

15:48

Americans really don't want to pay

15:50

their taxes over and over and

15:53

over so many stories feel like

15:55

they come down to just basically

15:57

that you know from the whiskey

16:00

rebellion and sort of a lot

16:02

of the sort of early revolutionary

16:04

fervor to you know like domestic

16:06

terrorism a lot of that comes

16:09

down to down to that so I don't

16:11

know how much more I have to say

16:13

other than just Americans don't want to pay

16:15

your taxes other than you know even that

16:17

kind of framing of it's you paying

16:20

your taxes as opposed to you funding

16:22

the government for things that

16:24

generally people want you know when you

16:26

ask them do you want your government to

16:28

do this most people say yes most people

16:31

like a sort of robust government offers social

16:33

services and so forth but we've just conceived

16:35

of it in this country in a way

16:37

that makes people feel like you know someone

16:39

is coming and taking something from me and part

16:41

of that I will say is nuts and bolts

16:44

like just the actual way we pay taxes

16:46

I mean people joke about this all time but

16:48

it's like the government comes to you and it's

16:50

like I know how much you owe me,

16:52

but you have to guess. If you

16:54

get it wrong, then you're going to

16:56

jail. Then you're going to be in

16:59

trouble. It's like, can you just tell me

17:01

that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So

17:03

I just think the whole dynamic of

17:05

how we pay our taxes just colors

17:07

this idea of what taxes are for

17:09

and why people are. I mean, so

17:11

much anxiety. Yeah, people don't want to

17:14

pay taxes, but at the same time,

17:16

people feel deeply entitled to certain services.

17:18

I mean, just a few weeks ago,

17:20

when we talked about paying for toilets,

17:22

like the use of a public restroom,

17:24

I'm not painies, the restroom, you know,

17:26

that's just the irony of it for

17:28

me, is like, how can you be

17:31

demanding for the things that you want? I

17:33

will throw out one little thing that

17:35

I gleaned from recently reading a minitious

17:37

and has the rise and fall of

17:39

the Second American Republic, which is about

17:41

reconstruction and its aftermath. She talks about

17:43

how freed people who were living in

17:45

the South, I can't remember quite the

17:47

location, but there was a bill passed

17:49

to get rid of taxation and they

17:51

rebelled against it, but they protested against

17:53

it because they were like, no, we

17:56

want to be taxed, we want to

17:58

pay taxes, because those taxes great. the

18:00

schools that we are desperate to

18:02

send our children to. We want

18:04

to be able to pay the

18:06

teachers, tax us. I should call

18:08

that the perhaps the only pro-tax

18:10

revolt in US history. Wow, that's

18:12

fascinating. That is. Maybe we should do

18:14

that and end up. Yeah. Perfect. All

18:16

right, our final one, five lessons for

18:18

five years. What is our final one?

18:20

That? is that we are constantly fighting

18:23

the Civil War. We are constantly reframing

18:25

the Civil War. We are constantly contesting

18:27

the Civil War. The Civil War has

18:30

never ended. This is a conversation I

18:32

had with Wright Thompson in New York

18:34

where he was like, all of this

18:36

shows me the South One. We are

18:39

constantly in these battles about who won,

18:41

who lost, who gets to shape the

18:43

narrative. Yeah, who gets to shape how

18:46

these stores are told. The statues that

18:48

come out of this, the murals, the

18:50

art, the relic, the textbooks

18:53

are highly contested. And I

18:55

think that's just because the

18:57

Civil War implies that the stakes

18:59

are so high, the way that we

19:02

think about liberty and freedom

19:04

and democracy and even our

19:06

own economy, the sticks are

19:08

so high that we have

19:10

not settled this issue yet far

19:12

from it. It really does feel like

19:15

the... animating

19:17

fight in the United States ever

19:19

since. I mean, it was the,

19:21

it was the animating fight before

19:23

the Civil War, it was the

19:25

animating fight during the Civil War,

19:27

and it continues to be the

19:30

animating fight. And even though, you

19:32

know, as we mentioned earlier, you

19:34

have those reconstruction amendments that do

19:36

fundamentally rewrite the contract, those get

19:38

contested immediately. We are still fighting

19:40

over the 14th Amendment. Yeah. This

19:42

is one of the biggest fights

19:44

that's happening right now in US legal

19:46

circles is... How much what what

19:49

should the 14th Amendment mean?

19:51

And that contestation that is

19:53

happening right now between conservative

19:55

jurists and non-conservative jurists is

19:58

about the civil war. Yeah. civil

20:00

war meant and what it settled and what

20:02

it didn't settle. Yeah. It just makes me

20:04

think, do you think that the people who

20:06

were living in the 1860s would have thought

20:08

150 years from now? This won't be settled.

20:11

You know, 150 years from now, we will

20:13

still be debating and actively trying to dismantle

20:15

or reconstruct like these ideas. I don't know

20:17

that Robert Lee would think 150 years later

20:19

people would still be fighting to keep his

20:22

statue alive. But at the same time, and

20:24

this is another kind of big meta thing

20:26

I feel like I've learned, but people actively

20:28

fight to write history in real time, right?

20:30

Absolutely. So, you know, maybe they didn't say,

20:32

okay, 150 years from now, this will be

20:35

unsettled, but there was, you know, we've done

20:37

episodes on the bloody shirt fight. deriding of

20:39

people who were telling one story of the

20:41

Civil War and trying to replace it with

20:43

another. If you're not doing that, I guess

20:46

your question is, are you doing that just

20:48

because of your goals in the moment, or

20:50

are you doing that to leave a legacy

20:52

and write a history? I don't know. I

20:54

will also say that the other thing that

20:56

I think about in this fight over the

20:59

meaning of the Civil War, if the original

21:01

sin of the not holding people accountable. Yes.

21:03

And we are living with the consequences of

21:05

that problem, that mistake, that error, that decision.

21:07

There's been no consequences. There's been no accountability

21:10

and there's been no sustainable reparation. And I

21:12

don't mean like reparations like pay us for

21:14

safety. I mean, well that, but more. Reparative

21:16

work to sort of heal the parts that

21:18

have been. broken. Do you know what I

21:20

mean? Like there's there has not even in

21:23

the efforts that that words are sort of

21:25

like addressed. of that harm has not lasted.

21:27

Well, that's another big theme is this country

21:29

just likes to really like to keep it

21:31

moving, you know, and it doesn't like the

21:33

same. Which at times, you know, there's a

21:36

part of me that does by the argument

21:38

that is a part of sort of whatever

21:40

you want to call it American exceptionalism or

21:42

what makes this country special at times is

21:44

that it does have that amnesia. I mean,

21:47

Nikki, you talked a minute ago about how

21:49

like... when things swing back things can swing

21:51

really fast you get these windows where you

21:53

can make a lot of progress and maybe

21:55

that has a little to do with the

21:57

fact that we don't stop down and go

22:00

into paralysis I don't know but yes it

22:02

is remarkable how much we just don't convene

22:04

and talk and to this point you know

22:06

kind of settle on a collective story, you

22:08

know, and that leaves just a vacuum for

22:11

everyone to fight over it. So, okay, those

22:13

are our five themes, as we said, not

22:15

the sunniest. I want to throw in one

22:17

bonus, always, there are lots of animal stories

22:19

that are wonderful throughout American history. It's important

22:21

to point that out. We love weird animal

22:24

stories. We have a whole section on our

22:26

YouTube page of all of our animal stories

22:28

collected, but yes. Animals play a big part

22:30

in American history. We love our pets. Our

22:32

pets are squirrels that are invading our White

22:35

House lawn. And we hate rats. And we

22:37

hate rats. rodents in general are not getting

22:39

a good showing on this show. We will

22:41

hunt a bear, but then also turn it

22:43

into a cute. Stuff doll that will turn

22:45

into our nickname. Yeah, we love our animals.

22:48

We would throw beavers out of airplanes with

22:50

parishes. With little goggles and parishes. You know

22:52

what? Jody, we don't have to wear goggles.

22:54

You know what? Jody, we don't have to

22:56

be that stuck on the historical record. Fair

22:59

enough. Fair enough. All right. Happy fifth to

23:01

the two of you. Happy fifth to everyone

23:03

listening. We really appreciate all your support over

23:05

the years. And of course we have lots

23:07

more great stories coming up for year six

23:09

and beyond. Nicole Hammer, thanks to you as

23:12

always. Thank you, Jody. and Kelly. Oh wait,

23:14

before I before I do

23:16

this, someone wrote how

23:18

asked how did you

23:20

come up with your

23:22

little sign -offs? And And

23:25

they were like, I

23:27

always play along when

23:29

I say, I say. Nicole Hammer thanks

23:31

you always, and you

23:33

say, you, you and thank

23:36

you Jody and Jackson, thanks

23:38

to you, and you

23:40

say, my pleasure. to you and

23:42

we've gotten a couple

23:44

of emails over the

23:46

years about how we

23:49

into that. It was

23:51

just very natural. fell

23:53

didn't want to repeat

23:55

the thing that I

23:57

said, like Kelly didn't to repeat people

24:00

always say, thanks so

24:02

much for having me,

24:04

always say I wanted to

24:06

mix it up. me

24:08

one says my pleasure,

24:10

but it is my

24:13

pleasure. so no it. says my pleasure

24:15

but signature move. love it yeah

24:17

their Once every, once every like

24:19

I I don't know, know,

24:21

episodes, my brain will

24:24

just freeze as I'm

24:26

doing it. It's the

24:28

same every time, and

24:30

I'll just up and

24:32

just say the wrong

24:34

thing or switch up

24:37

the order. like when

24:39

I up nobody can speak

24:41

say the like, thing, that's

24:43

not, that's not how

24:45

we do it. And then nobody

24:47

can speak, because we're right. but

24:50

Bye, guys. Happy Sunday.

24:52

Bye. not how we do it. Bye.

25:23

Radio Tapia. From

25:26

PRX.