0:01

Hey folks, welcome back to another

0:03

episode of TWIP. I am your

0:06

host, Frederick Van Johnson. Today, I

0:08

have a good friend of mine

0:10

on the podcast. Matthew

0:12

Jordan Smith, man. How you doing? I'm

0:15

doing good, man. Can't complain. Life is

0:17

good. Trying to be good anyway. Last

0:19

time you and I spoke was, was

0:21

it? It was after COVID,

0:23

right? Or was it, was it, it

0:25

can, it's not long. I'm trying to

0:27

remember it was. Cause you were just

0:29

about, no, you know what? You were

0:31

just about to kick off the Aretha Franklin

0:33

book. Yes, you're right. Like it hadn't,

0:35

it hadn't, the Kickstarter hadn't opened yet.

0:37

No, no. Cause you came on

0:39

the show to talk about it. Yeah. Exactly. How'd all

0:41

that go? was the last time. Yeah.

0:44

Well, it's always fast past, did well,

0:46

we made it, published a book. Sowed

0:49

out of the first edition of the book.

0:51

I didn't win to a second printing ended

0:53

up doing the view about six months ago

0:55

Did the view? Yeah,

0:57

yeah one in in so the book is

0:59

doing well the book is called Aretha cool

1:02

the intimate portraits It's the last decade

1:04

of pictures of Aretha Franklin and can

1:06

I say the big thing that

1:08

happened this week? Yes, of

1:10

course. I was gonna segue you into it,

1:12

but yeah good I mean,

1:14

it's been such a crazy, crazy week.

1:16

It's going by so fast, but this

1:18

week had a really big win for the

1:20

book. The Rock and Roll

1:22

Hall of Fame is

1:25

now carrying Aretha Koole. So

1:27

because of that, the book's on sale on

1:29

Amazon all this month to celebrate that. That

1:32

is great. Congratulations. Thank

1:34

you, man. Congratulations. you. That's

1:36

ridiculous. I

1:38

feel like I had a hand in

1:40

that. You did it. You did it.

1:43

There's a molecule, a molecule of a

1:45

hand in there. That is so cool.

1:47

So how has the book been received

1:49

so far? Is everybody loving it? I

1:51

hope they're loving it. It's done well. You

1:54

know, you got to keep pushing with a book. You know, it's

1:56

now been out that first, largely first

1:58

comes out, you're getting all the press, and

2:00

then press dies down. That's when you

2:02

got to, as an author, you've got to

2:04

really kick in and do other things.

2:06

So I'm learning it's my first time ever,

2:08

it's my fourth book, but my first

2:10

time ever going into a second printing. So

2:12

that was exciting and scary at the

2:14

same time. So for books like

2:16

this, you know, you know, that are

2:18

not ebooks, right? This is a this a

2:20

high end. This is the real

2:22

deal. In fact, you worked with didn't you work with

2:24

Peter Levchin? Yes. Yes.

2:27

Yes. Yeah. So

2:30

yeah, you bought the big

2:32

guns in to do this beautiful

2:34

heirloom book of a national

2:36

treasure, Aretha Franklin, right? So all

2:38

that. So I get all

2:40

that, right? So all that needed,

2:43

you needed the magic touch in order to

2:45

make sure that this thing was something

2:47

people were going to treasure for a long

2:49

time. But for other people, right?

2:52

You know, us mortals, you know,

2:54

if we want to publish a book,

2:56

we have other options, right? We

2:58

could do ebooks, we can go through

3:00

Blurb or any number of on -demand

3:02

publishers. Describe the process of and

3:04

the thought process from that level, your

3:07

level of, you know, speaking with

3:09

celebrities all the time and putting out

3:11

a book that needs to be

3:13

of that caliber versus putting out a

3:15

book that's, you know, hey, I

3:17

like taking pictures of grasshoppers and here

3:19

you go. Oh, like what's the

3:22

delta there? Well, the difference is

3:24

the print run. If doing like, you

3:26

know, a book for yourself or for friends

3:28

and family or to have a book

3:30

to give away to clients, that's one thing.

3:32

I think blurb would be wonderful in

3:34

situations like that. But if you're printing hundreds

3:36

of books, maybe thousands of books, you

3:38

want to go to a publisher who can

3:40

handle that. I did not go to

3:43

a traditional publisher. I went to a publisher

3:45

that's kind of like a self publisher. They

3:47

do great books in LA and specifically

3:49

a lot of music books. And I love

3:51

them for that. I see LA, they

3:53

did a great job of printing, getting the

3:55

book done. But all

3:57

of after printing was on me. So

4:00

all the publicity, all the press, no.

4:02

I had higher publicists, you know,

4:04

and then hit the ground running trying

4:06

to get the baby out there

4:08

and to the public. And now I've

4:10

got, you know, books, physical books

4:12

in hand trying to sell those ones.

4:14

So yeah, I always thought like

4:16

the publishing industry that like the old

4:18

school publishing industry, the value that

4:20

they brought and the reason that they

4:23

were gatekeepers at the time was

4:25

because if you want to get a

4:27

book out in Barnes and Nobles,

4:29

you got to go talk to this

4:31

publisher and. you know if it's

4:33

a technical book go talk to that

4:35

publisher and or and then they

4:37

would handle taking you through the process

4:39

of writing the book getting the

4:41

ISBN number promoting the book all the

4:43

things but then you fast forward

4:45

to today is I feel like it's

4:47

different so if you like you

4:49

just talked about it depending on your

4:51

your your your tolerance for

4:53

not the best

4:55

quality, you know, even then,

4:57

you know, some would argue that, but you

4:59

can do it all yourself. All that

5:01

ISBN number stuff. You do it all

5:04

yourself. You do an audio book. There's

5:06

so much stuff you could

5:08

do now. Does the self

5:10

-published flow have a pathway

5:12

into that? Okay, now

5:14

I'm publishing Aretha Cool

5:16

level work. The self

5:19

-publishing world is not an easy

5:21

one. You got to

5:23

imagine a thousand hardcover heavy books showing

5:25

up at your doorstep Then you

5:27

have to figure out how to you

5:29

know Get those books out there.

5:31

That's that's definitely a challenge and then

5:33

you know I live in Japan

5:35

and I'm selling books Predominantly in the

5:38

States. That's another challenge as well

5:40

So moving that amount of books going

5:42

through the whole process of publishing

5:44

the book and printing all that whole

5:46

process It's not easy But it's

5:48

not my first rodeo. So I had

5:50

I had experience doing it with

5:52

my last two books was self publish.

5:55

My first two were by traditional

5:57

publisher back in the day. And

6:00

the advantage of self publishing is that

6:02

you get more of the revenue, but

6:04

you have to do everything, you

6:06

know, for self publisher. Yeah,

6:08

you know, getting into any

6:10

store, all that is you getting

6:12

press. That's you. It's

6:14

a lot of heavy lifting. We're

6:16

having a publisher. They do all that

6:19

stuff. They can get a new press

6:21

that you can't get. I

6:23

had help by

6:25

having an amazing publicist.

6:29

Aretha Franklin, after working with her for 13 years

6:31

and a lot of other celebrities, I know

6:33

a lot of great publicists. So I hired a

6:35

publicist. Aretha's old

6:37

publicist, Gwendolyn Quinn, and

6:39

she helped me get on the shows. I ended

6:41

up doing like five different shows. The

6:43

two biggest ones were The View. And

6:45

then of course getting the CNN piece. So

6:47

those two were major, but it was,

6:50

it was a lot of work to get

6:52

there. Yeah. Yeah. But that's

6:54

it. And anything we're doing is going

6:56

to take a lot of work, right?

6:58

Even absolutely. So like, okay,

7:00

as an aside, I got to

7:02

ask you, how was that experience on

7:04

the view? Like, was it like,

7:06

how was that like from, from, I

7:08

would have been nervous, right? From

7:10

standing backstage until they call you on

7:13

or whatever. It was a

7:15

real lay people through it It was

7:17

surreal in so many ways it goes by

7:19

so fast You know you're out there

7:21

you're on the stage and you're you're

7:23

sitting and I'm sitting in the audience

7:25

in the front because they wanted me to

7:27

be in the front I'm sitting there

7:29

with my publicist and and they say okay

7:31

Well, she's gonna ask you one question

7:34

because whoopee was had chose my book

7:36

as one of her favorite books and

7:38

She was each person had their favorite book

7:40

and whoopee chose my book as her

7:42

favorite book And she asked me, like, you

7:44

know, what was so great about this

7:46

book was different. So I had to say

7:48

that really fast. I was giving, like,

7:50

literally 20 seconds to speak. And that

7:52

was it. But it was great.

7:54

And they got it out there. And then,

7:56

like, Whoopi has, there's two versions of my book.

7:58

There is the normal book, which is on

8:00

Amazon. And then there is a

8:03

limited edition book of only 100 signed

8:05

and numbered books, one through 100. And

8:07

Whoopi has one of those books. There

8:09

are about 40 of those left. Those

8:11

books are only on Aretha cool .com.

8:13

They're like 40 left of those and

8:15

this, you know, yes, it was surreal

8:17

being on the view and fantastic in

8:19

so many ways and great having whoopie

8:21

Goldberg say, Oh, this is my favorite

8:23

book, you know, you know of the

8:25

summer. So that was kind of cool. I

8:28

mean, that that whole thing seems

8:30

like a dream, right? It seems like

8:32

you had the idea or even

8:34

the whole part of the topic of

8:36

this podcast is, you know, personal

8:38

projects. So take us through that. How

8:40

did it start? Because you knew

8:42

Aretha from way back in the day,

8:44

right? Way back when, yeah. You

8:46

had this idea for this book. Was

8:48

it commissioned? Take us from the

8:50

germ all the way through to you're

8:52

sitting talking to Whoopi Goldberg. Well,

8:54

it actually starts like the

8:56

first time I met Aretha. My

8:59

first book was out at the time,

9:01

which is kind of funny. So I

9:03

gave her, or my very first shoot, a

9:06

gift at the end of the shoot, which

9:08

was my first book called Sepia Dreams. And

9:10

Sepia Dreams is a book of

9:12

50, you know, African -American celebrities

9:15

with interviews that I did of

9:17

each of them talking about their

9:19

journey of being, you know, stardom,

9:21

reaching becoming a star. And

9:23

she's looking through the book at the end

9:25

as I'm giving her the book and she's

9:27

like, oh, this is beautiful. Why

9:29

am I not in this book? So

9:32

she puts me on the spot and rightfully

9:34

so, she's the queen of so. So I told

9:36

her right then and there, I promise you

9:38

one day I'll do a book. And you will

9:41

be included if not you alone in the

9:43

book. And that's what started our

9:45

relationship. And 13 years later, you know, where

9:47

I've shot her until she passed away. And

9:50

okay, I made that promise to

9:52

her, I should do this book.

9:54

Then the pandemic hit. And

9:56

for the brakes on things. And

9:58

when it was over, kind of over,

10:00

I started back again and got

10:02

the book out there. And that was

10:04

the process for me. But it

10:06

started with, you know, just doing personal

10:09

projects, which I'm always doing. I

10:11

go one to the I'm working on

10:13

another one right now as a

10:15

matter of fact and You you never

10:17

I guess you never stop like

10:19

it's great for commission work and all

10:22

that stuff But the personal projects

10:24

those are you know your your life's

10:26

blood keeps you going keeps you

10:28

excited Keeps you inspired and it makes

10:30

you work hard. Yeah, the the

10:32

whole story of the inception of Aretha

10:35

cool the book Even your meeting

10:37

her right was the thread

10:39

that goes through all that

10:41

was photography, all the way from

10:43

meeting Aretha Franklin using your

10:45

camera as your, I don't know,

10:47

catalyst, Trojan horse, whatever, right?

10:49

It got you, you know, without

10:52

the camera, he's like, hey,

10:54

hey, I'm a fan, you know?

10:56

That's true. What you want, baby, I

10:59

got, right? But, you know, but

11:01

after that, like once you put that

11:03

thread of photography and the work

11:05

that you do that stands on top

11:07

of that, It's all instant credibility,

11:09

right? It's like, okay, this person is

11:11

real. They do real work. Now

11:13

we are as artists, we can have

11:15

that bond all the way through

11:17

her passing, right? That's awesome. Exactly. Exactly.

11:20

Yeah. What a story. So

11:22

then on personal projects then,

11:25

you know, so on that

11:27

scale, right, that's lightning

11:29

striking, you know, something

11:31

similar may happen to people, but not

11:33

that, right? So for people that are doing

11:35

more, let's call it pedestrian, the

11:38

personal projects, what are we, you

11:40

know, what are we looking at? How

11:42

do we get inspired to just

11:44

come from like things we see on

11:46

TV? Like how do I get

11:49

that spark to do something that's not

11:51

only important to me, but other

11:53

people and you know, in some cases

11:55

society? I think she's always

11:57

start as a photographer with the

11:59

things that move you that you aren't

12:02

even that you aren't even aware

12:04

of things that move your soul like

12:06

all my personal projects have meant

12:08

something to me and I think for

12:10

every photographer find that thing that

12:12

you identify with you know what makes

12:15

you happy what makes you sad

12:17

what makes you feel something turn those

12:19

feelings that you have that are

12:21

yours into a personal project because you

12:23

put your heart and soul into

12:25

it it won't be like work and

12:27

the pictures will show that so

12:30

follow your heart that's for every photographer

12:32

whatever that thing is that you

12:34

love or that you feel passionate about

12:36

Turn that passion into your personal

12:38

project. Yeah. You know, a

12:40

lot of photographers will say, okay, that sounds

12:43

great. You live in

12:45

one of the most dynamic and

12:47

vibrant cities on the planet,

12:49

Tokyo, right? You're rubbing elbows with,

12:51

you know, celebrities of, you know, all

12:53

this raw talent all around you all the

12:55

time, plus you're a talent of yourself.

12:57

Sure, you could say that, but if you

12:59

live in a small town, there's not

13:02

a whole lot going on in that town.

13:04

You might have it in and out.

13:06

I'm describing myself. Like, how

13:08

do you get that spark to

13:10

go do something like that, you

13:12

know? I'm in an agricultural community,

13:14

right? So I'm not in Tokyo.

13:16

I have San Francisco that I

13:18

can drive to, granted, but, you

13:20

know, for those people that are

13:22

like, yeah, yeah, you're you, I'm

13:24

me. How do I get me

13:26

closer to where you are? Well,

13:28

I grew up in a small

13:31

town. was born in Brooklyn, New

13:33

York, but grew up in Columbia,

13:35

South Carolina. So I know about,

13:37

you know, being small town city, but

13:39

you find your inspiration no matter where you

13:41

are. It can be, it doesn't matter

13:43

what it is. Whatever moves you, you can

13:45

shoot. I mean, we all went through

13:47

the pandemic and we're stuck in our homes,

13:49

you know, with nothing to do. And

13:52

people were finding that thing. that

13:54

made them come alive and

13:56

shoot. And I think for

13:59

all of us, no matter where we

14:01

are, we find that thing, whatever it

14:03

is that you enjoy doing, I don't

14:05

care what it is, you turn that

14:07

passion into your personal project. It

14:10

can be small, it can be big, it

14:12

doesn't matter. It can be all -consuming or

14:14

not. It can be a

14:16

book, it can be an exhibit

14:18

of five images, five images

14:20

you shot in the last five months. do

14:23

something that moves you, that

14:25

inspires you to get your work out

14:27

there. I remember

14:29

once going out with a friend

14:32

and went to an opening and

14:34

she made a comment that has

14:36

always stayed with me. She said,

14:38

oh, yeah, if you're not photographed

14:40

by, you know, in the red

14:42

carpet, it's like you weren't there.

14:44

Now, this is a celebrity talking

14:47

about going to an event for

14:49

and I'm like, hmm. But I've

14:51

always thought about that statement, and

14:53

I'm like, as a photographer, if

14:56

you shoot something and you don't show it, it's

14:58

like you didn't shoot it. Wow. So I'm always thinking,

15:00

OK, yeah, we

15:02

need to shoot all the time, which

15:04

I always do, and then show

15:06

the work. And those words that

15:09

I heard 15 years ago or more,

15:11

they stay with me, even with my

15:13

other small project. like, oh, wow,

15:16

I shot that, but nobody knows I

15:18

shot that. She just put it

15:20

out there because I love doing it

15:22

and Sometimes in doing that without

15:24

thinking about how it's gonna benefit us

15:26

in the long run or in

15:28

career wise or whatever You'll be do

15:30

better at it if you're just

15:32

doing things for the love of it

15:34

and putting it out there because

15:36

people feel the love in the images

15:38

and then it comes back Yeah,

15:40

but a lot of that has gotten

15:42

Yeah, yeah, it was a strong

15:45

word. I was a polluted A lot

15:47

of that purity of vision and

15:49

drive, I feel like, you know, to

15:51

be an artist, like I feel

15:53

this burning thing in the back of

15:55

my head. I got to go

15:57

create this shot of this black and

15:59

white thing with a red balloon.

16:01

It got to go do it. Right.

16:03

So you that that vision and

16:05

creative drive, I feel like has been

16:07

polluted by social media and and

16:09

the the chasing of the thumbs up

16:12

and the likes and group group

16:14

sort of what do you call it?

16:17

Cosigning of your work, right? Everybody this

16:19

this many people gave me a thumbs

16:21

up So therefore I must be good

16:23

at that kind of shot So I'm

16:25

gonna do more of that and feed

16:27

it right because they're telling me what

16:30

I'm good at is that I mean

16:32

you feel that Yeah, I do I

16:34

talk about it all the time with

16:36

my students I'm like, know, don't get

16:38

led, you know astray by the likes

16:40

because I know people who are growing

16:42

up in this generation, you know generation

16:45

alpha generation X, you know, I mean

16:47

just It just probably feel like this

16:49

is how I know I'm liked when

16:51

my work is liked. And it's a

16:53

fallacy. It's not true. It can

16:55

lead you astray. You shouldn't really care

16:57

about, and as hard as

16:59

to say this, you shouldn't care about

17:01

what people think. I'm gonna

17:04

say that again. You shouldn't

17:06

care about what people think. You've

17:09

got to show the work that

17:11

you really enjoy. regardless of if anybody

17:13

gives you a thumbs up on

17:15

it or not. Now

17:17

I know that's hard to think

17:19

we live in a world where

17:21

this graphication comes from getting, you

17:23

know, 100 likes or whatever. That

17:26

means nothing. Sometimes

17:28

people are watching your

17:31

work silently, seeing what

17:33

you're doing and taking it all

17:35

in little by little by little. And

17:38

then it's the accumulation of all

17:40

that work. Where really settles

17:42

it's not about one picture for

17:44

photographers. It's never been about that

17:46

one image, but the body of

17:48

work It's hard to see the

17:50

body of work on social media

17:53

today by strolling so fast and

17:55

going past from one thing to

17:57

the other But we must work

17:59

on the body of work and

18:01

if the body of work is

18:03

just the work that you love

18:05

After a while you start seeing

18:08

this amazing work. That's

18:10

all You. And

18:12

there's nothing about you that can be wrong. You

18:15

put out you and you're going

18:17

to find your audience. We don't need

18:19

the whole world to love our

18:21

work. We just need our, our tribe.

18:24

That's it. Yeah. That's great.

18:26

I love that. I'm going to, that's going to be a

18:28

clip. I'm going to make a short on YouTube just or

18:30

anything. No,

18:32

but like, as you were saying

18:35

that, I'm wondering. And

18:37

this goes back to, Hey. like my

18:39

my dad used to tell me if

18:41

you're going to do a thing do

18:43

that thing better than anybody else you

18:45

know even if you can't get there

18:47

at least strive for you know that

18:49

you remember that that time yes i

18:51

do very well and i wonder like

18:53

does that lead to to specialization and

18:55

and not being able to explore genres

18:57

that you may have found more suited

18:59

to you because you are drilling down

19:01

on this one thing right here because

19:03

you know If it first don't succeed

19:05

and all that stuff. So I'm just

19:07

going to burn a hole in that

19:09

and keep trying until I get good

19:11

at that better than anybody else. When

19:14

in reality, you should have been over

19:16

here doing this thing because you didn't

19:18

try it. Can photographers have two minds?

19:20

Like, can you have two genres? Or

19:22

can you can you only be

19:24

a, you know, I don't want to

19:26

say one trick pony, but you

19:29

know, do you have to specialize in

19:31

order to be successful? Or can

19:33

you be, you know, sort of a

19:35

jack a couple of trades conversation

19:37

a lot with photographers here in Japan

19:39

because I have friends who do

19:42

a little bit of everything and literally

19:44

jump from one thing to the

19:46

other whatever is hot in the moment

19:48

and those images look great all

19:50

the time however I might be minority

19:52

in this I feel the audience

19:55

gets confused and like oh yeah you

19:57

can do everything but what are

19:59

you really really good at And

20:02

until you're showing what you thrive

20:04

at, and staying on that, I

20:06

think people can get very confused

20:08

by seeing, okay, one day I'm

20:10

doing cars, I do them really

20:12

well, maybe one day I'm shooting

20:14

pictures of landscapes, I do that

20:17

very, very well, one day I'm

20:19

shooting portraits, I do that pretty

20:21

well as well. I

20:23

think people start seeing

20:25

somebody who does everything, like

20:27

everybody else. but when they

20:29

want to come to one person who does one

20:31

thing well, and that one

20:34

thing is the thing that you enjoy

20:36

doing the most, when

20:38

you do that, you can't help

20:40

but thrive at that one thing,

20:42

because people know you for doing

20:44

that thing. Now, I shoot stuff

20:46

that are outside of beauty portraits

20:48

for sure, that are for me, but

20:51

I don't show that

20:53

work with my core body

20:55

of work. That's

20:57

more personal. Yeah, perfect.

20:59

Is it personally is for you

21:02

only or is it just

21:04

your close circle of friends? It's

21:06

more for me only to

21:08

be honest like I've been I've

21:10

been doing a documentary the

21:12

last Wow five years now, maybe

21:14

six years. It's something called

21:17

yabu -same in Japan yabu -same is

21:19

horseback archery and They dress

21:21

in Edo style they go they're

21:23

gapping on a horse The

21:25

horse is dressed ittle style and

21:27

the shooting bow and arrow

21:29

at targets. What a

21:32

galloping horse. It's amazing

21:34

to see. So I've gotten very

21:36

close to this one group and I've been

21:38

documenting them over the years as they get dressed,

21:40

the whole process and I have an amazing

21:42

bite of work. That's just for

21:44

me. I love doing it. I haven't shown

21:46

it anywhere yet, but I love the

21:48

process. And I've made things like that I

21:50

do that you know that I love

21:53

doing. It gives me joy. keeps me in

21:55

love with photography. But

21:57

for my work, air

21:59

quotes, you know, it's it's

22:01

about just showing the work that is

22:03

in my realm. It's interesting. Because

22:05

that that I had a conversation

22:07

with. I think you mean,

22:09

I'm not sure if you know her

22:11

over at Adobe, one of the Adobe evangelists,

22:13

Julianne Cost. Oh, yes, absolutely.

22:16

Yeah, yeah, she was a while ago. She was

22:18

telling me, we're talking about personal projects even

22:20

back then, she was telling me. I think it

22:22

was actually in a Twitter interview, so it

22:24

may be in the archives. But

22:27

she does the same thing, you know,

22:29

there's there's projects that she shoots just

22:31

for her own self, you

22:33

know, fulfillment as an artist to

22:35

tell stories that nobody cares about.

22:37

And she's just telling them to

22:39

herself, right? Yeah, her camera. And

22:42

then your knife. Yeah, sharpening

22:44

your knife. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's another

22:46

body of work she has that's that people

22:48

can see. Right, you go out and see

22:50

what she does and see her as an

22:52

artist. Yeah, that that's

22:54

really interesting. I hadn't heard sort

22:56

of that perspective of it, like

22:58

something like the the sport of

23:00

shooting Apple from a moving horse,

23:02

you know, like Rapunzel or something.

23:04

And then the photography, knowing that

23:06

the caliber of photographer that you

23:08

are and that that work is,

23:11

you know, may or may not

23:13

ever be seen. That makes that

23:15

work that that much more valuable.

23:17

I think it also adds. another

23:19

dimension from a public perspective into

23:21

you because it's like, oh, he's

23:23

got all this hidden work in

23:26

there that we don't even know

23:28

about. We're letting us see this

23:30

one, right? That's true. That's true.

23:32

But here's the other great thing about

23:34

doing things like that. It's like

23:36

you practicing storytelling. As a photographer, you

23:38

know, you're shooting things that, that

23:41

move you, you know, it's your point

23:43

of view and you're putting all

23:45

that work together. as a story.

23:47

Maybe one day there'll be a book. I

23:49

don't know what it will be, but I

23:51

know I love shooting so much and and

23:53

trying to tell a story. And I just

23:55

shoot, you know, the main shot of them

23:57

gapping down this right way and, you know,

23:59

and shooting the bone arrow. That's that's that's

24:01

the touchdown. But I want to

24:03

get, you know, as they're getting ready as

24:06

they're practicing, you know, what does that feel

24:08

like? What's what kind of saddle do they

24:10

use? You know, why do they write a

24:12

certain way? I want to find out all

24:14

that stuff and tell a story. visually. And

24:17

I think doing that helps

24:19

you helps me anyway, in telling

24:21

stories, period, no matter what

24:23

I'm shooting. And stories,

24:25

visual stories, grab people, not

24:27

just one single picture, but

24:29

your ability as a photographer

24:31

to tell a story visually

24:33

that people can connect with. Yeah.

24:38

Yeah, the story is the other element

24:40

of it. Because then, you know, the

24:42

the self on the self project that's

24:44

ongoing. can be an ongoing narrative of

24:46

something that you're telling yourself that no

24:48

one else would even know how these

24:50

photos relate to each other. But you

24:52

know, yeah, very

24:54

interesting. I

24:56

wanted to kind of go back

24:58

a little bit and talk

25:00

about history a little. You

25:02

and I, I think in our last

25:05

conversation, we were having this deep dive,

25:07

nerd and out about AI and all

25:09

that stuff and what it was even

25:11

back then, what it could do. And

25:13

we're still blown away now, obviously. But

25:15

looking at all that stuff you know

25:17

the AI the generative this and that

25:20

and what's real what's not real and

25:22

you know that whole kind of world

25:24

of ambiguity that we're in. Does

25:27

that make the history of photography

25:29

more important than ever do you think

25:31

or does it make it less

25:33

important because all the cool stuff is

25:35

ahead of us not behind us.

25:37

What do you think? That's a great

25:39

question. I think that AI is

25:41

definitely another tool and there's some pros

25:43

and cons about it for sure. I

25:46

think in terms of photography

25:48

and being authentic, it

25:50

does make authentic pictures

25:52

more valuable. I definitely feel

25:54

that. By authentic pictures, I

25:56

mean, like, you know, I'm seeing this

25:59

surgeon now, everybody who's like, you know, 30

26:01

and under that I know in Japan,

26:03

they're all shooting film. They're shooting his old

26:05

cameras and they're all like, it's this

26:07

authentic thing about showing. Let

26:09

me just show you something. I got

26:11

this last week a photographer shot

26:13

an image of me and a friend

26:16

and Then made prints for me

26:18

and made prints on paper. It's like

26:20

and this is like paper. It's

26:22

like, you know Printed they brought one

26:24

to the dark room made the

26:26

image in this negative on Silver paper,

26:29

you know, it's just great to

26:31

see this moment, you know shot with

26:33

a camera and and to hold

26:35

this paper in my hand And

26:37

the whole thing is, you know,

26:40

analog. Something very special

26:42

about that. Made me

26:44

stop for a second, like, I keep

26:46

on looking at this picture and

26:48

I love it. That

26:51

tangible thing, you know, not

26:53

ones and zeros is kind of

26:55

special. And I thank

26:57

for photographers. Yes, it's great to

26:59

know about all that's brand new

27:01

and shiny and wonderful. But

27:03

we have to always think about,

27:05

you know, The authentic voice that

27:08

we all had and keep that

27:10

in our work. Yeah, it's like,

27:12

um, maybe when you showed that

27:14

print it reminded me was it

27:16

was it John Paul Kepernigro or

27:18

maybe Jay Meisel went one of

27:20

them, you know sort of luminaries

27:22

He had said something like the

27:24

print is the the punctuation at

27:26

the end of a sentence not

27:28

a comma You know, it is,

27:30

it's the end of the story.

27:32

But we've gotten away from that

27:34

as photographer. Since

27:36

we've been talking in this like

27:39

30 minutes, there's been probably

27:41

billions of photos that have been

27:43

shot and seen where where

27:45

does the where does the tactile

27:47

Adam physical romantic print come

27:49

into that narrative when everyone's just

27:51

in the sea of imagery

27:53

all the time. For

27:56

me, what I'm really working on

27:58

and pushing going forward is

28:00

having more exhibits and showing work

28:02

that way. It's a

28:04

wonderful way to get people off

28:06

their devices and into the real

28:08

world and come to an event

28:11

and for networking is fantastic. It's

28:13

great to show work and there's

28:15

nothing like seeing a real rent

28:17

versus seeing it on a device. You

28:20

walk into a gallery, you walk into

28:22

the museum, and you see something on a

28:24

wall or however you're displaying it, and

28:26

it moves you in a very, very different

28:28

way. I think for photographers,

28:31

we all need that. If you've never

28:33

had an exhibit before, this

28:35

is the time to have one.

28:37

Should we all throw away our iPads

28:39

and go back to the... I'm

28:41

not saying that at all. No, actually,

28:43

I'm serious though, because if you

28:45

look at, especially today, Matthew, if you

28:47

look at today, like with

28:49

all the AI stuff that we talked about,

28:51

it's hard to, it's hard to believe

28:53

what you see on a screen. In fact,

28:55

you shouldn't believe what you see a

28:57

screen. That's very true. In the old days,

28:59

like say three, four, five years ago,

29:01

you show up with like your 12 inch

29:04

iPad with your body of work on

29:06

and it's just beautiful. that that

29:08

was amazing. And I wonder, I

29:10

don't know, I'm just guessing, I'm

29:12

one person guessing. But I wonder,

29:14

because of all this digital stuff,

29:16

and it's kind of the cheapening

29:18

of what it took to create

29:21

amazing stuff on a screen that

29:23

the print, the physical printed book

29:25

now would have so much more

29:27

weight, like you in that photo,

29:29

right? So much more physical and

29:31

you know, sort of creative weight

29:33

than showing stuff on a screen

29:35

that you can show to a

29:38

million people. I wonder. It's

29:40

so funny you say that. It's so funny

29:42

because I was printing a book last night.

29:44

I'm actually still printing the book. I'm not

29:46

finished yet. But I want to have like,

29:48

you're always, I'm always meeting people out and

29:50

about. It could be on the plane. It

29:52

could be like, you know, in a jazz

29:54

bar, it could be anything. But

29:56

people always ask what you do

29:58

and saying your photographer doesn't

30:00

have that weight anymore. But

30:03

if you're showing somebody something

30:05

that's different, so I'm printing

30:07

small books to have with

30:09

me all the time You

30:11

know I'm in Japan so

30:13

you can find many everything

30:15

right so I was working

30:17

on too many books last

30:19

night so This is one

30:21

version of a mini portfolio

30:24

now. This is tiny tiny

30:26

tiny I wasn't expecting you

30:28

to pull out a minion

30:30

portfolio anywhere And just

30:32

making small little prints, you

30:34

know, to go through and...

30:36

That's crazy. That's beautiful. And

30:39

then I have another small book as well.

30:41

But this is a little bigger one just, you

30:43

know, because they make that difference to show

30:45

a print. Yeah. And

30:47

it's different and small

30:50

this way. You can have with

30:52

you everywhere you go. And you

30:54

can show people your work versus tell

30:56

them. And they can hold

30:58

it in their hand. Like back in

31:00

the day, what was super powerful was having

31:02

a Polaroid in your hand. You take

31:04

a picture and that client holds the Polaroid

31:06

before the shoot. And this

31:08

is special. We've lost that. So

31:11

having something that somebody can hold

31:13

in their hand and almost possess it

31:15

for a moment will make them

31:17

want your work more. Make

31:19

them want you. See, that's

31:21

cool. And you're right. If I'm

31:23

at some event or whatever, hanging

31:25

out with other people, and I

31:27

say, hey, what do you do?

31:29

I'm a photographer. The weight is

31:31

different from if they pull out

31:33

their phone and say, here's my

31:35

Instagram. Absolutely. To if they pull

31:38

out something like that, and it's a

31:40

little felt bag, and you're like, yeah,

31:42

here's my work. Take a look. Exactly.

31:44

And then they have to give it back

31:46

to you. They can't just bookmark it and

31:48

say, I'm going to go check that out

31:51

later while I'm doing something else. They have

31:53

to be physically present to hold and look

31:55

at the work at that time and it's

31:57

fleeting because you need it back. So

31:59

yeah, I think all of it brilliant. Brilliant.

32:02

Yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, chat. I'm curious how you

32:04

guys are to feel about that when we get

32:06

to the Q &A. Like

32:09

the printed, like that's a new idea.

32:11

I hadn't thought about that because everyone is,

32:13

especially after COVID, right? You even go

32:15

to a restaurant and the restaurant menus are

32:17

gone and there's a QR code on

32:19

the table, right? Before

32:21

you can oh, look at that. That looks

32:23

juicy. You

32:25

know

32:28

exactly

32:30

Yeah,

32:32

I feel very different different than

32:34

it almost feels like I'm bagging

32:36

my own groceries when I scan

32:38

a QR code. Thank you. Thank

32:41

you. Thank you That's like, okay,

32:43

I gotta use my energy and

32:45

my effort to look at I'm

32:47

going to pay you for it

32:49

and figure it out Yeah,

32:51

that is so good. That is so

32:53

good. So let's wrap on at least

32:55

the recorded segment of this. Let's wrap

32:57

on the, so we talked

32:59

about self projects and all that, but

33:01

you're also an educator, right? So

33:03

yeah, I've seen you on stage. And

33:06

again, I'm going to bring up

33:08

how you did a whole thing on

33:10

the light meter and the importance

33:12

of understanding light meters versus trusting R2D2

33:14

all the time, right? Yes, yes,

33:16

I live by them. Yeah,

33:18

so so people that are in this and

33:20

they want to get better now They

33:22

may be good already and they want to

33:24

take it to the next level They

33:26

may just be starting and they want to

33:28

get a little bit better Where there's

33:30

so much online now, you know with YouTube

33:32

and masterclass and There's stuff to learn

33:34

everywhere. Where would you recommend people go just

33:36

to like okay? I want

33:39

to I want to get started. I

33:41

want to be a I want to

33:43

be a real photographer that understands light

33:45

and all the things, not just somebody

33:47

that understands how to put a filter

33:49

on something. How do those real photographers

33:51

get started in this? That's a great

33:53

question. I've got a lot to say

33:55

on that. I teach a class and

33:57

I don't talk about this one that

33:59

much at all. I started doing this

34:01

class during the pandemic and it stayed.

34:03

I've got a course called Photography Lighting

34:05

Course and it started off being just

34:07

a lighting course. But

34:09

then it changed to being so

34:11

much more during the pandemic. I

34:14

started doing a weekly live session

34:16

every weekend for an hour where we

34:18

all come together, photographers

34:21

from all over the world,

34:23

and we talk about photography.

34:25

And it is such an

34:27

inspirational hour. It's become something

34:29

way more than just the

34:31

tech, which there's so much of that

34:33

out there. But shooting and

34:35

connecting with people, that's

34:37

In many ways, so much more important

34:39

than just, oh, what f -stop was this

34:41

shot at? What ISO? What camera? What lens?

34:44

All that stuff that anybody can

34:46

learn. But the soul of photography

34:48

is so much more. I

34:51

have my students now all working

34:53

on a big, big project. And

34:55

we meet every weekend for

34:58

an hour and go through

35:00

the work. And I give

35:02

them my suggestions. I

35:04

push them. The one we're doing right now is a

35:06

very hard one. but

35:08

it's essential. And I remember doing

35:10

different projects and assignments during

35:12

the pandemic. It was not easy.

35:15

Like my first assignment right

35:17

before it began was to do

35:19

a portrait of somebody wearing

35:21

a mask. And people were like,

35:23

what are you talking about? This is before it was

35:25

cool and way by I was doing it. People were

35:27

like, I'm not gonna do that. And

35:30

then like, you know, six months

35:32

later when the whole world was wearing

35:34

a mask, like you saw this

35:36

coming. I'm like, It was written on

35:38

the wall guys. And as photographers

35:40

were like, you know, these assignments also

35:42

documenting what's happening in life at

35:44

that moment. They're not just an assignment

35:47

for whatever about, you know, of

35:49

course, yes, improve your lighting and your

35:51

photography and storytelling, but they're much

35:53

deeper than just those types of assignments

35:55

because they are about life. They're

35:57

about Where we are at this point

35:59

where you are at this point

36:02

where I'm at this point and it's

36:04

strict. It hits you differently It's

36:06

everybody differently But I think that's why

36:08

they keep coming back week after

36:10

week after week. That's good. I mean

36:12

community as part of me just

36:14

the community The photography is like golf

36:16

right? It's kind of a solo

36:19

sports right that people can then come

36:21

together around and exchange notes and

36:23

Pay a lot of money for things

36:25

and all of the above But

36:27

that said, I don't want to just

36:29

plug my course. I want

36:31

to plug it at all. But

36:33

I just want to say that wherever

36:35

you find, it's great to get

36:38

into a community of photographers where you

36:40

can thrive together and learn together

36:42

and grow together. It can be online

36:44

or it can be in person. In

36:46

person is better. I

36:48

will say that because getting into

36:51

a workshop, getting

36:53

hands dirty, meeting people,

36:56

Something special about that and it never

36:58

gets old you never learn everything

37:00

You're always learning and growing when you

37:02

stop learning you kind of die

37:04

so get into a class in your

37:06

neighborhood in your in your state

37:08

Anyway, just get to a class get

37:10

to a workshop and learn how

37:13

to think differently than what you are

37:15

normally doing. Yeah Yeah, and preferably

37:17

one not in your town because there's

37:19

something about the being in a

37:21

in a different sort of environment that

37:23

places you go synapses. Yeah. And

37:25

then the other electricity above being around

37:27

other people that are that are

37:29

shooting interesting things and using that camera

37:32

that you thought you might have

37:34

bought and you know, you mean notes.

37:36

Absolutely. Yeah. Wow.

37:38

Those things change your life like

37:40

dramatically places you go people you

37:42

meet books you read those things

37:44

have profound impact on

37:46

your life, not just

37:48

your photography on your life. Yeah.

37:52

This is true. This is true. All of

37:54

it. And it's, yeah, so much, so much.

37:56

See, we're already almost an hour in. We

37:58

got to end this. I have another questions,

38:02

100 questions to go. Chat, if you

38:04

guys have questions, go ahead and put

38:06

them in the chat and we'll knock

38:08

those out in this last couple of

38:10

minutes here. But before that, so we

38:12

talked about this sort of tactile and

38:14

the importance of, you know, respecting the

38:17

art form all the way through the

38:19

end to the end of the sentence,

38:21

right? With a period. Yeah. But

38:23

then, so that, yeah, and I

38:25

100 % agree with all that. What

38:27

about digital storytelling? Where do you fall

38:29

on that? Because I used to,

38:31

I used to, you know, call it

38:33

multimedia, where you're telling

38:35

stories. with whatever medium is the

38:37

best for that particular story, right?

38:39

If audio is the best, you're

38:41

going to use audio and you

38:43

know how to do that. If

38:46

a photo with an audio track is

38:48

it, or if video is it, or

38:50

now it's AI, if that's it, whatever

38:52

the tools you need to, the A

38:54

team you need to assemble to tell

38:56

this story, you assemble it and then

38:58

tell the story can, you know, the

39:00

other side of that. Or I don't

39:03

know if it's the antithesis of it,

39:05

but the other side of it is,

39:07

you know, I'm a photographer. I use

39:09

a camera. I'm going to tell all

39:11

the stories through that microphone, you know,

39:13

of the camera or, you know, I

39:15

do microphone stuff. So I'm only going

39:17

to use the mic because that's my

39:19

tool. It's very powerful. Right.

39:22

We're here like, you know, I play podcasts every

39:24

day in the gym and it's wherever I'm

39:26

walking, you know, down the street or I'm on

39:29

the train, I'm playing a podcast. It's

39:31

very powerful. So using all

39:33

the tools that we have at our disposal

39:35

to tell a story only makes us a

39:37

better artist. Better storyteller.

39:40

If you can tell a story with an

39:42

image or you're having a hard time

39:44

telling a story of the image, why not

39:46

have that still image with an audio

39:48

behind it? Or whatever comes out next, we

39:50

don't know what's coming around the corner

39:52

two months from now, three months from now.

39:55

You should always learn the new

39:57

tools and how to play

39:59

with them and how that can

40:01

impact your impact on the

40:03

world. You know, show how that

40:06

work can have a major

40:08

influence on you and those who

40:10

see the work. Yeah.

40:12

Yeah. Impact. Impact.

40:16

Matthew, if people want to contact

40:18

you, you know, and kind of,

40:20

you know, either for your workshop

40:22

or... try to convince you to

40:24

let them see those photos of

40:26

the horseback. A very active on

40:28

Instagram, but also my email

40:31

is super simple. It's

40:33

mjs at

40:35

matthewwith2tsjordansmith .com.

40:38

There you

40:40

go. Mjs at

40:42

matthewjoys .com. I love it. I

40:44

love it. We're to leave it right there.

40:46

It looks like the chat didn't have anything

40:48

to chat. I think they're all riveted in

40:50

there. Phil says, excellent advice. Thank

40:53

you, Phil. Yeah. Great

40:55

point on photographing what we enjoy rather

40:57

than what we believe from Michael. What's

40:59

up, Michael? Yeah. And

41:02

then, oh, here Phil has a question. He

41:04

said, could you talk a bit about how

41:06

many images you started? Let me bring this

41:08

on screen. So could you

41:10

talk a bit about how many

41:12

images you started with for your

41:14

book and how you edited down

41:16

to the final version? Did you

41:18

get other opinions in the process?

41:20

That's a great, great, great question.

41:22

And I get that a lot

41:24

about books like Aretha Kool, or

41:26

even like your portfolio. People are

41:28

always asking about the number of

41:30

images, it seems like. With Aretha,

41:32

I had 13 years of shooting

41:34

her. Quite a

41:36

lot of images and as a

41:38

photographer you are very connected to

41:40

the work and sometimes that's a

41:42

bad thing because you see it

41:44

thinking about the experience of being

41:46

there in the room Doing the

41:48

shoot how much fun you had

41:50

where the person said what you ate

41:53

You're having that whole experience, but

41:55

the viewer has none of that

41:57

so it's great to have other

41:59

eyes to help you edit especially

42:01

a big project like exhibit or

42:03

a book so I had other

42:05

Feedback from trusted friends book editor because

42:07

I had a separate editor designer

42:09

and they gave me their opinion

42:11

and What they chose for the

42:13

cover? I never would have chosen

42:15

as a matter of fact in

42:17

my archive. I never saw the

42:19

picture When they show me that

42:21

you'd never seen it I'd never seen

42:23

it. It's my work. It was

42:25

you know on a contact sheet

42:27

for those Yeah, it was like

42:29

buried in there somewhere Wow, and

42:32

they showed me the dummy. I'm

42:34

like that's my image. I

42:36

had never seen the picture. I've

42:38

seen the picture, of course, but

42:40

it never hit me as being, Oh,

42:42

this is a great shot. I was oblivious

42:44

to it. And that's why it's great

42:46

to have other eyes seeing your world. Yes.

42:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

42:52

Yeah, or else you become, depending on

42:54

your personality type, you may become a

42:56

victim of yourself, where I take pictures

42:58

of this and I love it. You're

43:00

going to love it and no one

43:02

loves it, right? It

43:04

wasn't your self -project and who

43:06

cares because it's all yours. All

43:09

right, well, cool. Let's wrap it.

43:11

I'm going to bring this coming

43:13

up from Michael Michael says this

43:15

has been fantastic as past president

43:17

of two photo organizations I fully

43:19

agree with the advice of encouraging

43:22

photographers to join communities. Yeah, 100 %

43:24

super important. Super important. I

43:26

mean, even for me as

43:28

as the, you know, teacher

43:30

leader, it is therapeutic in

43:32

many ways. I mean, think

43:35

about the last 70 years

43:37

we've been through and we're

43:39

meeting every single week. So

43:41

we're living through all this

43:43

history going on as photographers,

43:45

learning, shooting, discussing work, and

43:47

discussing life through images. When

43:51

I think back about all the discussions

43:53

we've had, all the assignments we've had, it

43:55

kind of blows my mind. I mean,

43:57

that alone could be a book. All

44:00

the work from the students over the

44:02

last seven years, every single week, every

44:04

single week of the pandemic, and

44:07

then coming out of it, anything we're going through even

44:09

now. Visually

44:11

is powerful, powerful

44:13

stuff. Yep. 100%.

44:15

100%. Yeah. The, the, my twit

44:17

community, you know, some of the

44:19

folks that are here in the

44:21

chat tonight, we went through the

44:24

whole COVID adventure together and that

44:26

entire roller coaster of uncertainty and

44:28

all that, you know, and I

44:30

can't, I can't tell you how

44:32

invaluable it was to have like

44:34

human contacts. outside

44:36

of the house that were interested in the

44:38

same stuff I'm interested in, right? So we can

44:41

connect on that level and still commiserate about

44:43

the, you know, whatever is happening. So yeah, it's

44:45

good. Yeah, it's good stuff. Community will have

44:47

to continue this and we can't make another. Definitely

44:49

have to. Definitely have to. I would love

44:51

that. There's so much to say. I mean, there's

44:53

so much even like in your question that

44:55

you sent me, I'm like, oh, wow, I want

44:57

to definitely hit on that and that and

45:00

that, you know, there's so much I want to

45:02

get into for sure. So. Yeah, yeah, some

45:04

of those things on that list could be a

45:06

whole, I think we'll just make it a

45:08

whole episode, you know. That'd be great. That

45:10

would be cool. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about, so we'll do Yes,

45:12

I do. Yes, I do.

45:14

make that a whole episode, and we'll have

45:16

that conversation later. All right,

45:18

everyone, you know, thank you, Matthew. Thank you,

45:21

thank you. fantastic again. My mind is

45:23

blown. It's gonna be one of those episodes

45:25

I have to re -listen to. Again, you

45:27

know after the edit, you know, just

45:29

because you there's so many sage nuggets of

45:31

inspiration and wisdom in there So, yeah,

45:33

thank you. Thank you for sharing that always

45:35

great talking to you and hello to

45:38

the audience who's just coming in Thank you

45:40

guys for being here for for your

45:42

questions for everything that last one about about

45:44

the amount of pictures for a book

45:46

We can talk about that for an hour

45:48

alone. I mean, that's a big one

45:50

Thanks for that with the pain and joy

45:52

of culling, right? Yes. Yes indeed Alright,

45:55

alright, we'll end it right there. Thanks

45:57

everybody for listening. This week

45:59

in photo, the new style.

46:01

We'll see how it goes. Take

46:03

care everybody.