0:00

Coming up on this weekend's

0:02

space, NASA's next chief weighs

0:04

in on potential budget cuts.

0:06

There's a great wall in

0:09

space and what's to do

0:11

with the Hubble Space Telescope

0:13

35 years later. We've got

0:15

the original Hubble Hugger John

0:18

Grunsell himself to tell us

0:20

the skinny. Tune in. This

0:22

is told. This is this

0:24

week in space. Episode number

0:27

158 recorded on April 25.

0:29

Hubble's 35th birthday. Hello and

0:31

welcome to another episode of

0:34

This Week in Space, the

0:36

Hubble's Future Edition, among many

0:39

other things. I'm Rod Pile,

0:41

of course, Editor-in-Chief at Aster

0:43

Magazine, and I'm joined by

0:46

my fellow non-mathematician, Tarak Malek,

0:48

Editor-in-Chief at Space.com. Hello, partner.

0:51

Hello, it's my birthday! Roddy!

0:53

It's our special birthday episode

0:55

for Hubble Space telescope. But

0:58

also me. Wow, way to be

1:00

low-key. I forgot or I would

1:02

have made you another song. I

1:05

think this is the first year

1:07

I've gone without giving you something.

1:10

No, that's great. Of course you

1:12

never return the favor. You give

1:14

me the gift of friendship. I

1:16

give you the gift of time.

1:19

There we go. The groupies way

1:21

in. And a few minutes are

1:23

going to be joined by Dr.

1:28

It's okay. You can have a

1:30

total blow out there. In a

1:33

few minutes, we're going to be

1:35

joined by Dr. John Grunsfeld. Former

1:37

NASA astronaut, former NASA chief scientists.

1:39

He's got a whole list of

1:41

qualifications that I'll read when he

1:43

comes on. But perhaps most importantly,

1:45

the guy who made was at

1:47

five house calls on the Hubble

1:49

Space. Three out of the five

1:51

shuttle flights. That's right. Yeah. So

1:53

he's the Hubble Hugger. Yeah. and rods

1:56

the screw up the first act

1:58

of the show you should really

2:00

do it again guys. All right,

2:02

before we start, please don't forget

2:04

to do a solid. Make sure

2:06

to like subscribe and the other

2:08

good podcast things we're counting a

2:10

new to keep us popular and

2:12

beloved. And now a space joke

2:14

from listener Paul Woolley. Paul.

2:17

Are we going to have a sting

2:19

for that? I guess not. Hey

2:21

Tark. Yes, Rod. What do astronauts

2:23

do right after landing on Mars?

2:25

I don't know what do they

2:27

do. They post a selfie and wait

2:30

eight minutes for the likes to

2:32

arrive. Would it take 16 minutes?

2:34

Because it would take eight minutes

2:36

to get to Earth and then eight

2:38

minutes to get back, right? Yeah, picky

2:40

picky. I just didn't want to rewrite

2:42

his joke, but yeah, and it also

2:45

depends on the points of the orbit.

2:47

It could be up to 40. But...

2:49

I still dig it. Okay, let me

2:51

try it. Let me try it. Let

2:53

me try it again. They post a

2:56

selfie and wait a while for the

2:58

likes to arrive. I've heard that some

3:00

people want to fly in a repair

3:02

mission with this joke time on this

3:04

show, but you can help and repair

3:07

us by sending your best, worse,

3:09

or most of different space joke

3:11

to us at TW. TW. TV.

3:13

All right, now that I totally

3:16

bollics that, let's go to some

3:18

headlines. headline news.

3:20

Now on the tongues of many

3:22

as it should be are the

3:24

NASA budget cuts both across

3:27

the board and specifically

3:29

to the science budget

3:31

and we're gonna be

3:33

talking about that later

3:35

on in this episode

3:37

as we we have

3:39

continually anyway but also

3:41

no less than Jared

3:43

Isaacman. That's right. Future

3:45

administrator of NASA is not

3:47

a fan of those cuts. Yeah,

3:49

I know. This came from Space

3:52

News today. Jeff Faust over there

3:54

has a great write-up that basically,

3:56

you know, we talked a bit

3:58

in a past episode. where Jared

4:00

Isaacman had his Senate hearing for

4:02

confirmation as NASA administrator. Now those

4:05

senators sent him questions back from

4:07

that hearing that they wanted to

4:09

know more and included in them

4:11

were questions about the proposed. 50%

4:13

budget, which came after his hearing.

4:15

And in fact, Senator Maria Cantwell

4:18

of a Democrat from Washington asked

4:20

him pretty much straight out if

4:22

he supports the cut according to

4:24

Jeff House and Space News. And

4:26

Isaacman is now on the record.

4:29

He says he hasn't reviewed or

4:31

been a party to those official

4:33

discussions, but that a 50% reduction

4:35

to NASA science budget. does not,

4:37

and I quote, appear to be

4:39

an optimal outcome. Like he doesn't

4:42

think that it makes sense. And

4:44

he said that if he is

4:46

confirmed, you know, he will advocate

4:48

for strong investment in space science,

4:50

astrophysics, Earth science. He says as

4:53

well, which is very interesting, when

4:55

he was answering another question from

4:57

another senator. So it seems like

4:59

NASA's, or Trump. the Trump administration's

5:01

pick for it to lead NASA

5:03

and the proposed budgets that are

5:06

being that were leaked earlier aren't

5:08

really on the same page currently

5:10

and it's something that we're gonna

5:12

have to watch develop over time

5:14

because right now like he could

5:17

face coming into an agency without

5:19

having any agency over the actual

5:21

budget because the cuts would have

5:23

been made by then so we're

5:25

gonna hopefully by design. Yeah very

5:27

possibly you know yeah that's unfortunate.

5:30

The next tour from space.com because

5:32

we love space.com. This is remarkably

5:34

unclic bait for you. Largest structure

5:36

of the universe is bigger and

5:38

closer than we knew. Is it

5:41

a threat? The jury is still

5:43

out on what it all means

5:45

is what the subhead is, not

5:47

is it a threat? Oh my

5:49

gosh. No, this isn't as from

5:51

my colleague. Rob Lee over at

5:54

Space.com. I thought this was really

5:56

fun because this was actually one

5:58

of our most successful science stories

6:00

of the week. And it is

6:02

about the so-called Hercules Corona Borealis

6:05

Great Wall, which I think is

6:07

an awesome name for my band.

6:09

You guys can preorder now, right?

6:11

But it's this super cluster of

6:13

galaxies that. like line up in

6:16

space into a filament of the

6:18

web. So it's like some of

6:20

the first galaxies in the universe.

6:22

And it is, it's crazy because

6:24

it was first discovered about 11

6:26

years ago. 11 years ago? 2014?

6:29

Is that nine years ago? Nine

6:31

years ago. Not 11 years ago.

6:33

It is 11 years ago. I

6:35

was right. Wow. This is why

6:37

we do news. Yeah. I leave

6:40

the math to the writers. Though

6:42

it's like 10 billion light years

6:44

wide, it's like, it covers an

6:46

area like 10 billion light years

6:48

by 7.2 billion light years. I

6:50

mean, it's like a billion light

6:53

years. It's absolutely crazy. It's huge,

6:55

huge thing. And what we've, what

6:57

we discovered now is that it's

6:59

even bigger. than they thought. I

7:01

mean, they've been able to refine

7:04

their observations with ground and space-based

7:06

instruments out there, and now we

7:08

know that they can use gamma

7:10

ray bursts, which is how they

7:12

did this. They look for gamma

7:14

bursts throughout the structure, and we're

7:17

able to piece that together through

7:19

like distance calculations to see exactly

7:21

how far away it is, how

7:23

large it is, etc. to refine

7:25

it. This is absolutely... blew my

7:28

mind this week because you know

7:30

I've been here 20 whatever plus

7:32

years and I guess I forgot

7:34

that this thing even existed let

7:36

alone the fact that it was

7:38

so massive and yet out there

7:41

you know so very interesting discovery

7:43

and I'll you know I we

7:45

should go there we should go

7:47

to this great wall and and

7:49

go check it out right well

7:52

I think we should put that

7:54

big space blob on was epic.

7:56

But more importantly, it is a

7:58

great wall you can see from

8:00

space because it is in space,

8:02

right? Does that? Sure, sure thing.

8:05

Okay. Okay. Last not least, China

8:07

launches the Shenzhou 20 crew to

8:09

the Tiangong space station, their new

8:11

modulars, new-ish modular space station, and

8:13

that's a program that's going strong.

8:16

Yeah, this is from Mike Waller,

8:18

Space Flight Editor over at space.com

8:20

and it was on Wednesday, right?

8:22

Yeah, it was on April 24th,

8:24

so it was Thursday actually. They

8:27

launched their latest mission, it's their

8:29

ninth crude flight to the Tian

8:31

Gong space station, which if people

8:33

don't know, is China's national space

8:35

station, it is shaped like a

8:37

giant tea. Frataric, but also just

8:40

because that's the easy one. Oh

8:42

my god. Oh my lord. And

8:44

so, and so, but what's interesting

8:46

though is that this really demonstrates

8:48

that they have this crew rotation

8:51

operations fairly well in hand. They've

8:53

been, they're on a stretch of

8:55

a series of uninterrupted missions, which

8:57

I think is really interesting. And

8:59

in fact, just last week, and

9:01

I don't think we talked about

9:04

this on the podcast, China inked

9:06

an official agreement to train astronauts.

9:08

from Pakistan to fly to Tiongong.

9:10

That's their first international astronaut agreement.

9:12

And it could be one of

9:15

many, now that the international space

9:17

station's days are numbered, that we

9:19

know maybe by the end of

9:21

the decade it could be re-entered.

9:23

So just something definitely to watch

9:25

over time. And we'll see if

9:28

the space station grows because they

9:30

said that they're not going to

9:32

rule out adding more modules to

9:34

make an even larger space station

9:36

over time. Very good. Thank you

9:39

for that and before we go

9:41

to our first break and come

9:43

back with Dr. Grunsfeld I just

9:45

wanted to Tell people that my

9:47

lovely 12 year old Labrador mix

9:49

Charlie went in for tumor surgery

9:52

yesterday. Oh, Charlie. There's a picture

9:54

of Charlie basking in the sun

9:56

a few years back. He's a

9:58

little younger then. So if everybody

10:00

could send him good thoughts because

10:03

the surgery was bigger than we

10:05

anticipated and kind of looks like

10:07

he was a loser and saw

10:09

the lady in half contest on

10:11

a magic show somewhere. I mean,

10:13

it's literally from his spine down

10:16

to his stomach. So he's not

10:18

a happy camper today. Oh, we're

10:20

going for you, Charlie. I appreciate

10:22

that. And because it's Tarak's birthday,

10:24

I have a little known fact

10:27

about Tarak Malek to share. What

10:29

is this? What? What are you

10:31

going to share to everyone? What

10:33

dark skeletons from my closet? Are

10:35

you a squirming? Are you a

10:38

squirming in your briefs there, pal?

10:40

A little bit, a little bit,

10:42

Rod. It's always unpredictable. I learned

10:44

yesterday that Tarak Malek used to

10:46

drive a Saturn LS. which was

10:48

kind of like, it was the

10:51

Pontiac Aztec of its time, somehow

10:53

he thought that was a date

10:55

magnet and I just thought that

10:57

was really fascinating. Oh, because it

10:59

had a pointy nose, you said.

11:02

Yeah, it was a very sleek.

11:04

It was, you know, I was

11:06

named it for Planet. I named

11:08

it Molly. It was great. Now

11:10

it's like a cube in a

11:12

junkyard after being totaled on Hollywood

11:15

Avenue way back when. So. Well,

11:17

it's good to understand what a

11:19

lonely man you were back in

11:21

your youth. All right. So this

11:23

is great. Let's go to quick

11:26

break and we'll be right back

11:28

with the rest of the show.

11:30

Standby. Time

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is precious and so are our pets.

11:34

So time with our pets is extra

11:36

precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch

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and shipping is always free. With Dutch

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you'll get more time with your pets

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and year-round piece of mine when it

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comes to their vet care. And

12:04

we are back with Dr. John

12:06

Grunsfeld. Let me read the list.

12:09

Former NASA astronaut, former associate administrator

12:11

of the NASA Science Mission Directorate,

12:13

veteran of five shuttle flights, NASA

12:15

chief scientist, former NASA chief scientist,

12:17

former NASA chief scientist, former deputy

12:20

director of the Space Telescope Science

12:22

Institute, and a whole bunch of

12:24

other things with a PhD in

12:26

physics and a list of awards

12:28

and accomplishments that are truly humbling.

12:31

Hello, John, and thanks for joining

12:33

us today. Hello, my pleasure. Oh,

12:35

and I shouldn't forget you're a

12:37

member of a number of associations,

12:39

including, which stuck out to me,

12:42

the American Alpine Club, as well

12:44

as the American Astronomical Society, AAAA,

12:46

AAA, AAA, AAA, AAA, and the

12:48

Experimental Aircraft Association. So I guess

12:50

the one there that sort of

12:52

sticks up for those of us

12:55

who are somewhat used to talking

12:57

with the top level people in

12:59

the space trade is the American

13:01

Alpine Club. What got you started

13:03

a mountain climbing? Well, I, you

13:06

know, I grew up in my

13:08

very, you know, impressionable years of

13:10

the 1960s. And two interesting things

13:12

happened, one of which, of course,

13:14

was the start of the space

13:17

program. I was born in 1958,

13:19

so I'm a baby of NASA.

13:21

But as I was growing up

13:23

and very impressionable, I saw, I

13:25

remember the Gemini flights. I used

13:28

to have a little John Young,

13:30

lunchbox, metal lunchbox, But also Americans

13:32

started climbing in the big mountains

13:34

with the Europeans and others. And

13:36

through the pages of National Geographic,

13:38

I got to see people like

13:41

Whitaker climbing Mount Everest. And I

13:43

thought that would be cool. I

13:45

grew up in Chicago, so not

13:47

a lot of mountains there. But

13:49

that always strike my fascination. And

13:52

then around the third grade, because

13:54

I was asked to do a

13:56

biography of Enrico Fermi, and I

13:58

was so disappointed I didn't get

14:00

somebody famous. But it changed my

14:03

life in a way. And Enrico

14:05

Fermi, of course, the famous physicist

14:07

who fled fascist Italy to the

14:09

US, helped develop the first self-detaining

14:11

atomic pile at the University of

14:14

Chicago. And in fact, it was

14:16

only maybe a mile away from

14:18

my house. We were in urban

14:20

renewal housing on the south side

14:22

of Chicago. And so I could

14:25

ride my bike over to where

14:27

Fermi built that. But more importantly,

14:29

he loved mountaineering. and he wrote

14:31

about how he he misses the

14:33

dolomites where he climbed as a

14:35

postdoc. And so in a way

14:38

I've kind of tried to model

14:40

my life of physics, cosmic ray

14:42

physics, and personal life, but I

14:44

love to climb mountains. And so

14:46

I joined the American Alpine Club

14:49

many years ago. So we

14:51

have a vaguely similar origin story,

14:53

but our lives took extremely different

14:55

directions. But I do have to

14:57

ask, since we were born with

14:59

it about a year of each

15:01

other, did you have Major Matt

15:03

Mason toys? No, I did not.

15:06

Really? Oh, that was Mattel's man

15:08

in space. That was my inspiration.

15:10

Although it didn't get me a

15:12

doctor in physics. Okay, Tarak, you're

15:14

out. Sorry. Well, thank you again,

15:16

John, for joining us today. Especially

15:18

today, as we're recording it, it's

15:20

Hubble Deployment Day, right? The anniversary,

15:22

35 years ago, today, as we're

15:24

recording it, the Hubble Space Telescope

15:26

was released into the void to

15:28

then open its eye on the

15:31

cosmos. And of course, the rest

15:33

is history. But I'm curious how

15:35

you got to where you are,

15:37

you know, now, John, I mean,

15:39

if the, you know, that path

15:41

to an astronauts of physics was

15:43

something that I mean it sounds

15:45

like you're talking about an reconferming

15:47

that it was there at the

15:49

at the get-go but was the

15:51

space angle and all of this

15:53

there at the same time because

15:56

of that gemini interest that the

15:58

space program that was going on

16:00

back then or or was that

16:02

something that came up through your

16:04

studies becoming a physicist? etc. Well,

16:06

I have absolutely no doubt that

16:08

the influence of the early space

16:10

program put me on the path

16:12

to become an astronaut. We live

16:14

close to an A&P grocery store.

16:16

I don't even think they exist

16:18

anymore. And so I would see

16:21

the big trucks come back and,

16:23

you know, back into the space

16:25

and they would unload the trucks.

16:27

And so as a young kid,

16:29

I wanted to be a, you

16:31

know, commercial truck driver. And at

16:33

about the age of six or

16:35

seven. having seen the space launches

16:37

and the ticker tape parades, I

16:39

declared to my mother I wanted

16:41

to be an astronaut. And she

16:43

thought that was actually great because

16:46

it would encourage my nascent interest

16:48

in science. This is before Enrico

16:50

for me. And there's zero chance

16:52

I would ever actually become an

16:54

astronaut, so she didn't have to

16:56

worry about, you know, blowing up

16:58

on a rocket. So I certainly

17:00

fooled her. But that background interest

17:02

in space, you know, I followed

17:04

Gemini, I followed Apollo, Skylab, and

17:06

of course, the early space shuttle

17:08

program, as I was exploring my

17:11

interest in science. And I love,

17:13

you know, all kinds of natural

17:15

science, but in particular, you know,

17:17

looking up at the stars and

17:19

wondering, you know, what's out there,

17:21

was sort of the highest priority.

17:23

And that's what drove me in

17:25

physics, in astrophysics, eventually going to

17:27

college and studying physics and becoming

17:29

an experimentalist. I built instruments that

17:31

went up on high altitude balloons

17:34

and then continued that in my

17:36

graduate studies. At the University of

17:38

Chicago, I had a balloon experiment

17:40

that I was working on, but

17:42

also we had the Chicago cosmic

17:44

rain nuclear experiment that I was

17:46

working on, but also we had

17:48

the Chicago cosmic rain nuclear experiment.

17:50

that flew in 1985 on space

17:52

shuttle Challenger. And my PhD thesis

17:54

was actually derived from that shuttle

17:56

flight. And of course, that's the

17:59

year before. the tragic loss of

18:01

challenger in 1986. But as I

18:03

was going through elementary school, you

18:05

know, up through high school, I

18:07

just assumed that by the time

18:09

I was an adult, by the

18:11

time I was practicing astrophysicist, that

18:13

all astronomers would go to space,

18:15

right? It seems like the natural

18:17

thing. And at that time, you

18:19

know, that was kind of the

18:21

rhetoric, you know, the space by

18:24

the, you know, 1990s would become

18:26

routine. So it wasn't until I

18:28

had my PhD that I applied

18:30

to NASA the first time for

18:32

the space shuttle program. And, you

18:34

know, I thought, okay, well, if

18:36

I want to be an astronaut,

18:38

this is how you do it.

18:40

And I filled out the application

18:42

sent it in thinking, you know,

18:44

okay, we'll see what happens. And

18:46

months later, I got a call

18:49

from Duane Ross at the Johnson

18:51

Space Center. He was the head

18:53

of the astronaut selection office and

18:55

he said, hey, John, are you

18:57

still interested in becoming an astronaut?

18:59

And I was sitting at my

19:01

desk at Caltech at the time

19:03

and I said, well, of course,

19:05

and he said, well, we'd like

19:07

you to come down for an

19:09

interview. And I said, sure. And

19:11

I assume they must interview thousands

19:14

of people. And I arrived and

19:16

there were 12, I think 12

19:18

people in my interview group. And

19:20

I had no clue what was

19:22

going on, you know, what the

19:24

protocol was, what I should prepare

19:26

for, what I should prepare for.

19:28

But, you know, I did well

19:30

and I was told that they

19:32

interviewed a bunch of scientists and

19:34

that they picked two and they

19:36

picked Jim Newman and Tom Jones

19:39

for the class of 1990 and

19:41

I was ranked number three and

19:43

they encouraged me to reapply, which

19:45

I did. And so in 1992

19:47

I was selected into the astronaut

19:49

candidate program and then a year

19:51

later graduating. So that is really

19:53

interesting because I knew that you

19:55

joined in 1990. But now you're

19:57

saying you applied in 1990, which

19:59

is when Hubble launched there. So...

20:01

And you're in an interesting spot

20:04

because you were on the science

20:06

side before becoming an astronaut as

20:08

Hubble, you know, launched into space

20:10

and had... We're going to talk

20:12

a little bit about that relationship

20:14

too in a bit. And then

20:16

you became an astronaut later on...

20:18

you know I ended up working

20:20

on that so I just I

20:22

find that that split of being

20:24

a scientist first with this instrument

20:26

that everyone was excited about at

20:29

that point in time and then

20:31

giving you a really unique perspective

20:33

when you get your hands on

20:35

on the the telescope itself but

20:37

we should ask about the Hubble

20:39

Space telescope now because that is

20:41

the the soup du jour it's

20:43

why it's why you know we

20:45

hope to talk to you I'm

20:47

really curious about that relationship with

20:49

Hubble like what what what what

20:51

what does it mean? to you

20:54

now, now 35 years later, and

20:56

I, or Rob, do you want

20:58

to go to a break first

21:00

or should we? Why don't we

21:02

go ahead and take quick break

21:04

because I think this is going

21:06

to be a really juicy answer.

21:08

Oh, you know, I'm going to

21:10

get carried away. So I will

21:12

tell you that, you know, when

21:14

people ask, you know, when did

21:16

you start training to repair the

21:19

Hubble Space telescope, you know, my

21:21

pithy answer is at birth. Time

21:24

is precious and so are our pets.

21:26

So time with our pets is extra

21:28

precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch

21:30

provides 24-7 access to licensed vets with

21:32

unlimited virtual visits and follow-ups for up

21:34

to five pets. You can message a

21:37

vet at any time and schedule a

21:39

video visit the same day. Our vets

21:41

can even prescribe medication for many ailments

21:43

and shipping is always free. With Dutch

21:45

you'll get more time with your pets

21:47

and year-round piece of mine when it

21:50

comes to their vet care. Great.

21:55

All right. Okay. Now I'm ready.

21:57

Now I'm ready. So so John,

22:00

you know, thank you for kind

22:02

of setting the stage with your

22:04

career there so that people are

22:07

aware of your, I guess your,

22:09

your. ever burning light for science

22:11

there that led you to NASA.

22:14

But your story really unfolded at

22:16

the same time as Hubble because

22:18

we just talked about earlier, you

22:20

applied the same year that Hubble

22:23

launched, you were, I think you

22:25

were at Caltech in 1990 at

22:27

that point in time studying, when

22:30

we spoke earlier this week, you

22:32

said gamma ray and x-ray astronomy,

22:34

right, as well. So I was

22:36

studying black holes and neutron stars.

22:39

And in particular, black holes and

22:41

or neutron stars that are in

22:43

a binary system. So there's a

22:46

large massive star, and next to

22:48

it is a compact object, a

22:50

black hole or a neutron star,

22:53

and the black hole is sucking

22:55

up the other star until something

22:57

happens. Oh, that stuff is great.

22:59

That was great. So were you

23:02

and other astronomers excited? Like, I

23:04

mean, obviously now, looking back. Hubble

23:06

has become this icon of astronomy.

23:09

But in 1990, when it launched,

23:11

it had problems, but there was

23:13

a lot of run-up. Were you

23:15

in the science community excited about

23:18

that? And then Crestwood, or did

23:20

you always expect it to be,

23:22

I guess, the powerhouse that it's

23:25

become? Well, to put that in

23:27

perspective, you know, Lyman Spitzer, I

23:29

think, was 1946, I think, was

23:32

1946 before we'd successfully launched, and

23:34

anybody had ever launched anything into

23:36

orbit, predicted that and suggested that

23:38

we should pursue a space telescope

23:41

that would orbit the earth to

23:43

get above the atmosphere so that

23:45

it could see more clearly so

23:48

it could see ultraviolet light. And

23:50

so the buildup from there through

23:52

the dawn of the space age,

23:54

the 1970s, when the large space

23:57

telescope was seriously proposed and started

23:59

being developed to the Hubble space

24:01

telescope, you know, the astronomical community

24:04

was really excited about it. of

24:06

the great observatories. Of course, there

24:08

are lots of different types of

24:11

astronomers. There are astronomers who use

24:13

ground-based facilities to look in optical

24:15

and infrared. There are radio astronomers

24:17

who use large dishes to look

24:20

up at the sky. There were

24:22

people like myself who were doing

24:24

x-ray astronomy and gamma-ray astronomy. And

24:27

Hubble was sort of taking all

24:29

the attention. And so there are

24:31

a number of us and myself

24:34

included that were, you know, I

24:36

would, I would use, you know,

24:38

we're humans most of the time,

24:40

you know, less were Vulcan. You

24:43

know, we were a little bit

24:45

jealous of all the attention and

24:47

the funding that was going to

24:50

Hubble. Of course, we had the

24:52

Compton Gammeri Observatory, which is what

24:54

I was using for my work

24:56

and the Chandra X-ray Observatory and

24:59

the Spitzer Infrared Infrared Observatory, the

25:01

other great observatories in process. But

25:03

honestly, when I was selected as

25:06

an astronaut, I was not a

25:08

true Hubble Hugger at that time.

25:10

I appreciated its significance. And then

25:13

of course, it launched in 1990,

25:15

it was deployed, you know, today

25:17

35 years ago, and it almost

25:19

wasn't successful, but then we found

25:22

out about spherical aberration. And so

25:24

I'll just say that, you know,

25:26

35 years ago today, the crew

25:29

on discovery. you know were really

25:31

sweating bullets because one of the

25:33

solar rays didn't deploy. In fact,

25:35

Kathy Thornton and Bruce McCandless during

25:38

deployment were in their spacesuits in

25:40

the airlock ready to go if

25:42

they need to manually crank out

25:45

the solar arrays. But fortunately, the

25:47

ground was able to uplink a

25:49

command to override an inhibit and

25:52

they were able to roll out

25:54

the solar rays and deploy. Hubble.

25:56

So we don't have a lot

25:58

of pictures of the Hubble deployment

26:01

because all the people to take

26:03

pictures were here. you know, in

26:05

the car lock with the hatch

26:08

closed. So that was one, maybe

26:10

the first Hubble save was on

26:12

deployment day. Wow. Wow. So I

26:15

had a list in here at

26:17

one point, although I don't see

26:19

it now of how many hours

26:21

you spent on EBA with Hubble

26:24

over various flights, but it must

26:26

have been between 25 and 30?

26:28

So I did eight space walks

26:31

between six and a half. hours

26:33

and eight hours and 40 minutes

26:35

for a total of a little

26:37

over 58 hours. We should we

26:40

should point out we should put

26:42

out John is the self-described you

26:44

mentioned you said it earlier a

26:47

Hubble hugger you flew through three

26:49

of the five how many numbers

26:51

am I holding up three of

26:54

the five servicing flights there and

26:56

including SDS 125 which was my

26:58

last my my my first and

27:00

I guess last, a Hubble servicing

27:03

mission as a space reporter there,

27:05

but no, no, what is it,

27:07

no spring chicken to servicing the

27:10

Hubble spacecraft. I think that's what,

27:12

Rod, you were gonna get up

27:14

there. Well, where I was gonna

27:16

go is, John, I've written a

27:19

lot about the early space program,

27:21

Gemini, through Apollo and so forth,

27:23

and one story that always really

27:26

intrigued me was the. the struggle

27:28

to get EBA right. So you

27:30

talk about those early to mid-Germanite

27:33

flights, where they were just doing

27:35

stand-up EBAs and floating free a

27:37

bit from the cockpit, and then

27:39

they started climbing out to the

27:42

Aegina, which was the attached spacecraft

27:44

to the front of the Gemini

27:46

capsule, to the back. of the

27:49

trunk there where they had a

27:51

busy box thing took multiple missions

27:53

that it really wasn't until Buzz

27:56

Aldrin went up. He had trained.

27:58

one of the few that are

28:00

really trained extensively in neutral buoyancy

28:02

in water and made it work.

28:05

But it's a great lesson and

28:07

description of why it's not easy

28:09

to do EVAs. So even though

28:12

there have been a couple decades

28:14

by the time you came along

28:16

to work on Hubble, I'd be

28:18

interested in hearing how challenging it

28:21

is because you train a lot

28:23

in the neutral buoyancy tank, but

28:25

then you get up there. It's

28:28

a whole different environment. Now you're

28:30

looking at the real thing. How

28:32

challenging is that? What are some

28:35

of those challenges? Well, first of

28:37

all, I think the Gemini program

28:39

is vastly underappreciated. When you look

28:41

at, you know, going from, you

28:44

know, a mercury flight, sitting in

28:46

a capsule, orbiting the earth and

28:48

entering, you know, sure, you know,

28:51

that's world changing. But when we

28:53

started Project Apollo, you know, we

28:55

were planning to land on the

28:57

moon and walk around in space

29:00

suits. And we didn't know how

29:02

to do rendezvous. We didn't know

29:04

how to do docking. We didn't

29:07

know how to do space walks.

29:09

We didn't know how long people

29:11

could live in space if they'd

29:14

even survive, a trip to the

29:16

moon and back. And Gemini proved

29:18

all of those things in a

29:20

very short period of time. Also,

29:23

Gemini was really invented between mercury

29:25

and Apollo to prove those things

29:27

out. And indeed, space walking proved

29:30

to be one of the most

29:32

difficult. you're in this pressurized suit,

29:34

you're like the Michelin man, and

29:37

it takes physical effort, you know,

29:39

for the physicists out there, the

29:41

integral of F, D, X, just

29:43

to move in the suit to

29:46

open and close your hands. And

29:48

so over, you know, of course,

29:50

we did land on the moon,

29:53

we walked on the moon, but

29:55

the shuttle program is really where

29:57

we refined the space suits so

29:59

that they worked well. and so

30:02

that they could fit lots of

30:04

different people. And especially the gloves.

30:06

The Apollo astronauts complained about the

30:09

gloves, and we worked many generations

30:11

of gloves. for the space shuttle

30:13

program. But a lot of it

30:16

comes down to what you said,

30:18

training, training, and more training. For

30:20

the Hubble flights that I was

30:22

on, we did three space walks,

30:25

the first mission, but we were

30:27

training for a bigger mission that

30:29

would do six in a row,

30:32

six day after day. It was

30:34

decided by management and probably correctly

30:36

that five was probably the max

30:38

we should do. And so on

30:41

my second and third Hubble missions,

30:43

we had five spacewalks, so I

30:45

did three on each mission. Roughly

30:48

speaking, for every hour doing a

30:50

spacewalk, we trained about 12 hours

30:52

in the pool, but that doesn't

30:55

include all the engineering work where

30:57

we developed the procedures for the

30:59

spacewalks or the tools or the

31:01

techniques. You know, so it's probably

31:04

more like 15 to 20. hours

31:06

for every hour in space. On

31:08

top of that is the basic

31:11

space suit training that we do

31:13

in the pool, you know, for

31:15

fixing the space shuttle in case

31:18

that breaks, you know, I've done,

31:20

you know, I can't remember how

31:22

many space walk practicing to fix

31:24

the space station and develop that

31:27

because that was being co-developed while

31:29

I was flying the other missions.

31:31

So much so that when I

31:34

go out... on a space walk

31:36

in the shuttle space suit, I'm

31:38

just really comfortable. I mean, it's

31:40

just a very different experience than

31:43

the Apollo astronauts. So much so

31:45

that there were times where I

31:47

sort of marveled, you know, it

31:50

started me that, you know, where

31:52

I was working with sub-miniture assembly

31:54

connectors on a radio frequency transmitter

31:57

receiver, I thought, I feel like

31:59

I'm insured sleeps. I'm so, you

32:01

know, doing this and it so

32:03

familiar. that you've, I forgot that

32:06

I was in a space suit,

32:08

not quite, but you know, I

32:10

felt that way. That's really amazing.

32:13

I do have a follow-up, but

32:15

let's run to a quick break.

32:17

We'll be right back standby. Time

32:19

is precious, and so are our

32:22

pets. So time with our pets

32:24

is extra precious. That's why we

32:26

started Dutch. Dutch provides 24-7 access

32:29

to licensed vets, with unlimited virtual

32:31

visits and follow-ups for up to

32:33

five pets. You can message a

32:36

vet at any time and schedule

32:38

a video visit the same day.

32:40

Our vets can even prescribe medication

32:42

for many ailments, and shipping is

32:45

always free. With Dutch you'll get

32:47

more time with your pets and

32:49

year-round peace of mind when it

32:52

comes to their vet care. As

32:54

I understand it then, besides the

32:56

training and everything, the actual replacement

32:58

bits for the Hubble, the things

33:01

you were upgrading and servicing, were

33:03

mostly modular, but I assume like

33:05

so many things, technological, that doesn't

33:08

always work out quite as modular

33:10

as you'd hope. terms of replacements

33:12

and so forth. Yep. You know,

33:15

the brilliance of Hubble is that

33:17

it was designed to be, you

33:19

know, serviceable almost everything. And it

33:21

was co-developed with the shuttle, you

33:24

know, it was designed to be

33:26

the, you know, to fit completely

33:28

in the payload bait. It was

33:31

as big as it could be.

33:33

If it were any bigger, it

33:35

would have been stuck. And as

33:38

well. you know, it was designed

33:40

with doors that open and closed,

33:42

you can kind of see it

33:44

on the picture behind me. And

33:47

the avionics and the scientific instruments

33:49

were modular, such that with some

33:51

bolts, you could unbolt them and

33:54

take them out, connectors, put them

33:56

back in. There were some things

33:58

that they thought it'll never fail,

34:00

but also, just because of technology

34:03

developments. and learning how to operate

34:05

the observatory there were things we

34:07

decided to do and this is

34:10

the amazing community, the Goddard Space

34:12

Flight Center, the contractors, the scientists,

34:14

that we that were never anticipated

34:17

that we would do. So one

34:19

example of something that they said

34:21

would never break was the S-band

34:23

single access transmitter. And so this

34:26

is something that's very important for

34:28

talking to the calm satellites of

34:30

GEO, and one of them failed.

34:33

if a second one failed it

34:35

would significantly impair the Hubble. So

34:37

it was decided to go fix

34:39

it. And this is just a

34:42

little box about this big with

34:44

all, you know, transistors and power

34:46

transistors and radio frequency connections. And

34:49

the antenna wires are coaxial lines

34:51

with these little sub-miniture assembly connectors.

34:53

And it was screwed in with

34:56

screws that you can't just put

34:58

a wrench straight on. And of

35:00

course, they were non-captive, so if

35:02

you take them out, they would

35:05

float away. So we had to

35:07

develop tools to, you know, get

35:09

under the overhanging lip to get

35:12

into the, where the screwdriver fits,

35:14

and a special tool to hold

35:16

on to the screwdriver, to hold

35:19

on to the screw, after it

35:21

comes out, so it doesn't float

35:23

away and, you know, get into

35:25

the Hubble optics or somewhere. And

35:28

then I had a tiny little

35:30

torque wrench wrench that was... set

35:32

at about eight inch ounces to

35:35

do the final torque inch ounces.

35:37

I've never even heard of that.

35:39

And the fun thing is that

35:41

I would go to the local

35:44

hardware store and buy tools and

35:46

modify them in my home shop

35:48

and go into the pool and

35:51

we'd try them out. And then,

35:53

you know, a month later, it

35:55

would have made an official tool.

35:58

And so we evolved those tools

36:00

during training so that again, I

36:02

could do that task. And One

36:04

of my questions is, because often

36:07

when you screw something into Hubble,

36:09

you put a little something like

36:11

lock tight. that the screw won't

36:14

back out during lunch. And I

36:16

said, you know, are those screws,

36:18

you know, glued in or are

36:20

they just tightened to a torque?

36:23

And they went, tried to find

36:25

the documentation. They said, well, we

36:27

think it's just screwed in. You

36:30

won't have to worry. And of

36:32

course, I got up there and,

36:34

you know, I couldn't turn the

36:37

screws. I ended up having to

36:39

use both hands and turn a

36:41

tiny little screwdriver because in fact

36:43

they were, they were, they were

36:46

glued in. But that's an example

36:48

of, you know, more of the

36:50

task that wasn't anticipated before launch.

36:53

Other things, you know, the Nick

36:55

Moss cryo-cooler, the near infrared camera

36:57

multi object specter graph, had a

37:00

cooling system failure. And so we

37:02

went up in 2002 and installed

37:04

a big radiator on the outside

37:06

of the telescope. And Rick Lenahan

37:09

and I replumbed a cooling system

37:11

into a hole in the bottom

37:13

of the telescope and plugged it

37:16

into the Nick Moss. So, you

37:18

know, not only was I an

37:20

RF technician, avionics technician on Hubble,

37:22

you know, I was a plumber.

37:25

And then we also did a

37:27

bunch of re-electrical wiring of the

37:29

solar rays to the power units,

37:32

and so we're electricians, and then

37:34

of course just mechanical engineers taking

37:36

big instruments in and out. But

37:39

there were a lot of repairs

37:41

we did that were not anticipated,

37:43

and in a way those were

37:45

some of the most fun, and

37:48

because they were challenging. Well, yeah,

37:50

I did want to ask about

37:52

just the whole concept of that.

37:55

Of course, these spacewalks are integral

37:57

to the repairs, to the upgrades

37:59

for Hubble, but why even want

38:01

to build that capability into an

38:04

instrument like the Hubble Space Telescope

38:06

in the first place? Because, you

38:08

know, it was launched in 1990s,

38:11

it was developed over the decade

38:13

or so prior to that. That's

38:15

all state-of-the-art technology. That's great. The

38:18

Voyager spacecraft are doing fine. relatively

38:20

speaking, 40 plus years, you know,

38:22

out, out, out, out, out in

38:24

interstellar space. But why build that

38:27

capability as both a scientist and...

38:29

and an astronaut from your view

38:31

into this instrument, you know, in

38:34

the first place. You know, we've

38:36

got James Webb, it doesn't have

38:38

that capability, and people seem to

38:41

be happy with it. So a

38:43

couple of things. One of which

38:45

is that it was recognized before

38:47

launch that the instruments that were

38:50

available in the 1980s would quickly

38:52

be overcome by new developments in

38:54

astronomy. astronomers, astrophysicists, scientists in general,

38:57

you know, to make measurements to

38:59

unravel the mysteries of the universe,

39:01

are always pushing technology. And nowhere

39:03

is that more true than an

39:06

astrophysics for ground-based observatories and space-based

39:08

observatories, where, you know, we push

39:10

semiconductor research and electronics to get

39:13

more performance to try and... look

39:15

further into the universe or in

39:17

higher spectral resolution, where you break

39:20

the light up into its component

39:22

colors and look for the signature

39:24

of various physical phenomena, or something

39:26

like LIGO, where we're measuring the

39:29

distance between mirrors at a fraction

39:31

of the diameter of a hydrogen

39:33

atom in order to look for

39:36

gravitational waves. In fact, that's one

39:38

of the reasons why our country

39:40

does this kind of breakthrough science.

39:42

is that it pushes technology to

39:45

force people to invent new things,

39:47

which then companies can take advantage

39:49

of to improve the economy, our

39:52

national defense, human health. In fact,

39:54

you know, the technology that we're

39:56

using for this podcast, the video,

39:59

is based on first charged couple

40:01

devices, silicon cameras, which when Hubble

40:03

was launched, were virtually non-existent. and

40:05

then now CMOS sensors, all of

40:08

which were developed and pushed by

40:10

astronomers, and then became. you know,

40:12

mass market items, you know, there

40:15

was no in a phone when

40:17

Hubble was launched. And so the

40:19

need to change instruments out on

40:22

Hubble periodically was really the crucial

40:24

thing because each time you bring

40:26

up a new generation of scientific

40:28

instruments, it's like having a brand

40:31

new observatory. And that's one of

40:33

the great things. Hubble now after

40:35

35 years, because of the five

40:38

service in missions, has a complete

40:40

set of scientific instruments, which are

40:42

for the most part state of

40:44

the art still today. Yeah. Wow,

40:47

you know, I'm curious that kind

40:49

of leads us to our next

40:51

question which is just the science

40:54

behind it all You know you

40:56

and I had a nice long

40:58

interview earlier this week Where you

41:01

talked about like some of your

41:03

your picks, but you know for

41:05

the benefit of our listeners and

41:07

and viewers here I am I

41:10

am curious if there's and I'll

41:12

have to go to a break

41:14

first but but uh, you know,

41:17

I am curious that like if

41:19

you have five or three key

41:21

ones, but let's go to a

41:23

break really quickly and then we'll

41:26

come back and then we'll come

41:28

back and Because we want the

41:30

whole answer. Time is precious and

41:33

so are our pets. So time

41:35

with our pets is extra precious.

41:37

That's why we started Dutch. Dutch

41:40

provides 24-7 access to licensed vets

41:42

with unlimited virtual visits and follow-ups

41:44

for up to five pets. You

41:46

can message a vet at any

41:49

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mind when it comes to their

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vet care Okay, I think we're

42:07

ready now So yeah, you know

42:09

because we talked a lot about

42:12

the the spacewalk, you know in

42:14

that prowess that engineering Accomplishments of

42:16

Hubble, but what about the science

42:19

that it's it's it's allowed? Because

42:21

the images are undeniable, right, but

42:23

there's much more to just the

42:25

pretty pictures for Hubble, is that

42:28

right? Yep, oh absolutely. So first

42:30

of all, Hubble was designed originally

42:32

for a 15 year lifetime. And

42:35

in that 15 years with servicing,

42:37

it's sort of high level requirement

42:39

was to measure the expansion of

42:42

the universe in order to get

42:44

an age estimate of how long

42:46

our universe is has been around

42:48

since the Big Bang. And it

42:51

was hoped that Hubble could see.

42:53

maybe halfway to the origin of

42:55

the universe, six or seven billion

42:58

years back in history. So keep

43:00

in mind that, you know, the

43:02

universe is very vast and light

43:04

travels at a finite speed, the

43:07

speed of light. And so it

43:09

takes time for when light is

43:11

emitted, say, by a star and

43:14

a distant galaxy to get to

43:16

Earth. And so when we look

43:18

with Hubble and do a big

43:21

time, long time exposure, were seen

43:23

back into history, cosmic history. And

43:25

so Hubble did that measurement. It

43:27

measured the distance to distant galaxies.

43:30

But because it's lived for 35

43:32

years, we've not only been able

43:34

to measure that age of the

43:37

universe and the expansion of the

43:39

universe back to half the age

43:41

of the universe, which by the

43:43

way is about 13.8 billion years

43:46

old. we've actually been able to

43:48

see back to about 13.2 billion

43:50

years with Hubble almost all the

43:53

way back to the beginning of

43:55

stars and galaxies themselves. Now James

43:57

Webb can go even further because

44:00

of the cosmological redshift. Eventually Hubble

44:02

could see further but it's not

44:04

an infrared telescope and the light

44:06

from back then is in ultraviolet

44:09

light emitted back then is now

44:11

infrared light by the time it

44:13

reaches us just because the light

44:16

waves get stretched out. as the

44:18

universe expands. So we measured the

44:20

age of the universe very accurately.

44:23

And one of the things that

44:25

we did. didn't expect when Hubble

44:27

was launched because nobody thought of

44:29

it as a possibility. Well, maybe

44:32

Einstein did. But as astronomers looked

44:34

at these distant galaxies and measured

44:36

the rate of expansion over cosmic

44:39

time, instead of seeing something where

44:41

the universe is slowing down, is

44:43

either expanding constantly at the same

44:45

rate or because of gravity pulling

44:48

on everything. the universe could be

44:50

expanding and slowing down. Adam Reese

44:52

at Johns Hopkins University and Space

44:55

Telescope Science Institute, you know, was

44:57

making those measurements and in his

44:59

notebook found that the universe looked

45:02

like it was accelerating. And he

45:04

had like a question mark in

45:06

there like, ah, there must be

45:08

something wrong with the measurement. and

45:11

made more observations and as the

45:13

data came in, it became more

45:15

and more certain that in fact,

45:18

starting about six billion years ago

45:20

or so, this expansion force, this

45:22

mysterious dark energy force, started taking

45:24

over and the universe has been

45:27

accelerated. And of course that led

45:29

to Adam Reese, Brian Schmidt, and

45:31

Saul Permutter winning the 2011 Nobel

45:34

Prize in physics for that discovery.

45:36

And I like it that Adam

45:38

says, you know, no Hubble servicing,

45:41

you know, no Nobel. Because we

45:43

put in the advanced camera for

45:45

surveys in 2002 that allowed him

45:47

to confirm that measurement. Wow. That's

45:50

kind of the update of No

45:52

Bucks, No Buck Rogers, right? And

45:54

that reminds me and just, I

45:57

feel like I'm grossly oversimplifying things,

45:59

but anybody who's been a NASA

46:01

watcher for decades. Nose has been

46:04

a struggle to to keep keep

46:06

this basically keep the sale going

46:08

with the American public which is

46:10

a shame because it's not an

46:13

expensive agency as things go and

46:15

the returns are just so vast

46:17

even just raw financial returns I'm

46:20

sure you've seen the numbers you

46:22

know the Apollo program for every

46:24

dollar that went in 16 to

46:26

26 came out but Hubble kind

46:29

of turned that on its head

46:31

because regardless of of how valuable

46:33

the science has been and it's

46:36

been fantastic the visuals have been

46:38

breathtaking as has been said over

46:40

and over and over mostly by

46:43

NASA insiders is the gift that

46:45

keeps giving. So the messages that

46:47

people involved with Hubble like yourself

46:49

have been able to send the

46:52

public are look this isn't just

46:54

interesting and cool abstract science it's

46:56

beautiful in a way that connects

46:59

you with the universe that nothing

47:01

else can. Yep well you know

47:03

absolutely NASA is popular for good

47:05

reason. First, I mean, from a

47:08

practical point of view, you know,

47:10

NASA, scientists, engineers, the missions that

47:12

NASA does. NASA's a mission agency.

47:15

You know, we perform these amazing

47:17

missions. To do those missions, we

47:19

have to invent new things. Now,

47:22

I like to say that the,

47:24

you know, the mission of NASA

47:26

in a way is to innovate,

47:28

to create new things, to go

47:31

out and explore. And when we

47:33

explore, we discover things, and when

47:35

we discover things and communicate it

47:38

to the public, we inspire, you

47:40

know, a nation and a world.

47:42

And Hubble is one of the

47:45

best exemplars of that. When, if

47:47

you go around the country and

47:49

you see, you know, go to

47:51

National Park, you know, there are

47:54

people wearing, you know, NASA meatball

47:56

shirts. And in fact, that's true

47:58

around the world. That's aliens calling.

48:01

I love that that's the ring

48:03

tone. That's awesome. But all around

48:05

the world you see NASA shirts

48:07

and as associate administrator for science

48:10

I would travel around to different

48:12

countries. you know, giving astronaut talks,

48:14

giving science talks, meeting with scientists

48:17

in those countries. And, you know,

48:19

the U.S. ambassadors around the world

48:21

say that NASA is the best

48:24

ambassador of the U.S. of any

48:26

of the, you know, federal programs.

48:28

And, you know, I think that's

48:30

pretty meaningful because as far as

48:33

U.S. leadership, as far as U.S.

48:35

greatness. you know, NASA is really

48:37

at the top of the list.

48:40

NASA is popular on both sides

48:42

of the aisle in Congress, partly

48:44

because NASA is all across the

48:46

nation. And when you ask Americans,

48:49

you know, do you like NASA,

48:51

almost universally people say yes. And

48:53

then when you dig in and

48:56

you say, well, what do you

48:58

like about NASA? As people start

49:00

listing things that they know about,

49:03

you know, there's the original moon

49:05

landing. You know, that's often mentioned.

49:07

But then it's Hubble, it's, you

49:09

know, Mars Curiosity, Mars Perseverance, the

49:12

ingenuity helicopter, uh, missions out, you

49:14

know, to the edge of the

49:16

solar system. And it's not until

49:19

eight or nine do people start

49:21

talking about, you know, the human

49:23

space light program. And only about

49:26

half of Americans know that we

49:28

even have an international space station

49:30

with U.S. astronauts on board. And

49:32

so the science missions really do.

49:35

generate that wonder and awe and

49:37

inspiration in the American people that

49:39

that make NASA so popular, which,

49:42

you know, makes me rather befuddled

49:44

that the talk now is about,

49:46

you know, slashing really an epic

49:48

slash in the science program at

49:51

NASA and cuts to human spaceflight

49:53

as well. You know, if it's

49:55

about economic superiority, if you will,

49:58

Invest in NASA, as you say,

50:00

currently the analysis shows that. Every

50:02

dollar invested in NASA is about

50:05

$7 to $9 in GDP. And

50:07

so if you really wanted to

50:09

enhance the economy, you would invest

50:11

more in NASA, not less. Yeah,

50:14

we should point out that, go

50:16

ahead, right, go ahead. I just

50:18

want to mention two things real

50:21

quick. You know, as part of

50:23

that public perception question, as I'm

50:25

sure you've seen the same polls

50:27

I have, they changed from year

50:30

to year, but generally if you

50:32

ask the average American citizen. Hey,

50:34

what percentage of the federal budget

50:37

is NASA? They go, gee, 10%,

50:39

20%, you're thinking, we'd have condos

50:41

on the rings of Saturn by

50:44

now, if that was the case.

50:46

So I know that NASA's overall

50:48

budget is roughly half of 1%.

50:50

But what is the science budget

50:53

in terms of the federal budget?

50:55

It's tiny, you know, if you

50:57

could make some big... agency, say

51:00

the Defense Department, if you went

51:02

to the Pentagon and said, hey,

51:04

we'd like you to be 1%

51:07

more efficient, you know, that would

51:09

pay for most of the science

51:11

that the U.S. invests in, you

51:13

know, across all agencies. Well, so,

51:16

so you touched on it. Let's,

51:18

so thank you for grabbing that

51:20

third rail for us. So, as

51:23

listeners, the show, no, the regular

51:25

ones, the science budget that NASA

51:27

has been, It's been proposed that

51:29

it be cut by 50% and

51:32

a significant percentage of those are

51:34

in astronomy astrophysics and of course

51:36

earth science You know it's been

51:39

been represented as everything depending on

51:41

which organizations press release you're looking

51:43

at this criminal act to you

51:46

know just extreme thinking I think

51:48

our view on the show is

51:50

look We understand you may have

51:52

to make some trims, but not

51:55

to this level, and certainly don't

51:57

slash major programs like the Roman

51:59

Space Telescope, which is already built.

52:02

already built. Yeah, and there's others

52:04

in a simpler situation. So I

52:06

imagine you have some thoughts

52:08

about this and I'd love

52:10

to hear them. Well, I think

52:12

it's nearly insane to

52:14

cut the NASA science

52:16

budget because one, Americans

52:19

love NASA science and

52:22

it's they're the taxpayers.

52:24

They are paying taxes to

52:26

get a return. But it's

52:28

also more. about the investment

52:31

that the US makes in

52:33

science. And you can sort

52:35

of reflect back on, you

52:37

know, America basically winning World

52:40

War II for peace in

52:42

the world. And coming out

52:44

of that, you know, the US put

52:46

a study together led by

52:48

Vannebar Bush to say, how

52:50

can we take advantage

52:52

of the science, the engineering

52:54

that we put into? you

52:56

know, the tools that allowed us to

52:58

win World War II, to take

53:01

advantage of, you know, scientists

53:03

and engineers working for the

53:05

benefit of the US economy

53:07

for human health for national

53:09

defense. And out of that came

53:11

organizations like the National Science Foundation,

53:13

NACA, and then NASA, DARPA, you

53:16

know, and all of the effort

53:18

that we put into and, of

53:20

course, for human health, you

53:22

know, the... Centers for Disease Control

53:24

and all of Health and Human

53:27

Services research programs. And that's why

53:29

we are lead the world in

53:31

so many areas. In astrophysics

53:33

and in fact in almost all areas

53:36

of space science, the US has complete

53:38

dominance working with other

53:41

countries, working with the European Space

53:43

Agency, working with the

53:45

Japanese Space Agency, Canadian

53:47

Space Agency, Canadian Space

53:49

Agency, scientists around the

53:52

world. in space science

53:54

and in particular in

53:56

astrophysics. And these cuts will

53:58

basically were just hand the leadership

54:00

over to other countries and

54:02

specifically China, which has been

54:04

working very hard to build their

54:07

space science program up

54:09

and specifically astrophysics. They are

54:11

working on something like a

54:13

Hubble, a servicing observatory to be

54:15

near their space station. And so

54:18

it just seems crazy. Now specifically,

54:20

you know, Hubble, James Webb,

54:22

Roman, and the next

54:24

great observatory, habitable worlds

54:27

observatory, habitable worlds observatory.

54:29

These are really important

54:31

programs for leadership in the

54:34

US, but also because when astronomers

54:36

push the boundaries as we are

54:38

with these these telescopes, it's a

54:41

great benefit to national defense.

54:43

You know, we're not the only

54:45

ones who use telescopes as you

54:47

can imagine. In the example

54:49

of the Roman Space

54:52

telescope, I was associate

54:54

administrator when Department of Defense

54:56

approached us. and said, hey, we

54:58

have a surplus optical system. Do

55:00

you think this could be valuable

55:02

to NASA? And I looked at the

55:04

details and said, oh, absolutely, if

55:07

you're not going to fly it, you know, we

55:09

have a mission that can take advantage

55:11

of this. And so as far

55:13

as government efficiency, there's nothing more

55:16

efficient than reuse of something that

55:18

taxpayers have already invested in. And

55:20

that's how we took the W

55:23

first, the wide field infrared

55:25

space telescope. concept that

55:27

was recommended by the

55:29

National Academy of Sciences

55:31

Astrophysics to Catal. We took that

55:33

concept, married it with this optics,

55:35

and now we have almost ready to

55:38

go, almost ready to go to

55:40

the launch pad, a complete

55:42

observatory with instruments, and with

55:44

a particular instrument called a

55:47

coronograph that's a technology pathfinder

55:49

that can do, that can image

55:51

planets around nearby stars to look

55:53

for... if there's life in the

55:55

universe beyond earth, is there another

55:57

earth out there? And the idea that we'll...

56:00

will just really nearly

56:02

cancel that for reasons

56:04

that are not clear, really

56:06

to me seems somewhat

56:08

insane. Now, to be fair, the

56:11

reports and all of

56:13

my knowledge come from

56:15

public domain sources. You know,

56:17

this is a proposal

56:19

by Office of Management

56:22

and Budget to NASA for,

56:24

you know, slashing and burning

56:26

NASA. Hopefully. Janet

56:28

Petro and the leadership at

56:31

NASA can push back on that.

56:33

So that the final budget

56:35

that the president announces, you

56:37

know, will have broader support

56:40

for NASA, not throwing it

56:42

down the toilet, the way it

56:44

seems like they're thinking. Now,

56:46

I want to stand up

56:48

a chair here. Well, but,

56:50

but also, there's two things

56:52

I'd like to add to

56:54

that. One of which is,

56:56

you know, we do have.

56:58

a U.S.S. Constitution, and you'll

57:01

bear with me a

57:03

second, maybe, maybe after

57:05

the break. I keep

57:07

one on my desk.

57:10

She's alluding me the

57:12

moment, but yes,

57:14

oh, of course, because

57:16

it's sitting out. I

57:19

wish I could remember

57:21

who gave this to me,

57:23

It's been to Antarctica, as

57:25

a matter of fact. But

57:27

the Constitution says that the Congress

57:29

has the power of the purse.

57:32

So the President's budget request is

57:34

exactly that. It's a proposal. It's

57:36

a request for Congress to

57:39

consider it. And, you know, widely

57:41

in Congress, NASA is appreciated.

57:43

However, this is a weird time,

57:45

you know, so it's not clear what

57:47

will happen. But, you know, Congress could

57:49

rescue us. Unfortunately.

57:52

The Office of Management and Budget, as

57:54

I learned in my five years at

57:56

NASA headquarters, they have a lot of

57:58

authority to direct agencies. independent

58:00

agencies like NASA

58:03

to start making severe

58:05

cuts even before Congress

58:07

enacts a budget when

58:09

you're in a continuing

58:12

resolution, which seems like

58:14

we're always in a continuing

58:16

resolution. And so a lot

58:19

of the cuts are happening now.

58:21

You know, people are being

58:23

offered buyouts, people are being

58:25

laid off in a reduction in

58:28

force. And Hubble and James

58:30

Weber not being spared. Yeah,

58:32

you know, my understanding is that

58:34

NASA has been directed already

58:36

to start turning off instruments

58:39

and laying off the engineers

58:41

and scientists who support

58:43

Hubble in order to save a

58:45

few tens of millions of dollars.

58:48

If that, yeah, and that's just crazy. Yeah,

58:50

for for our listeners who may not

58:52

have seen. when I was at the

58:54

American Astronomical Society meeting, that's where during

58:56

the town halls we were told that

58:58

it was a blanket 20% cuts for

59:00

Hubble, for James Webb, for a lot

59:02

of other programs just to be ready

59:04

to have a plan for that kind

59:06

of thing. And it's a good time,

59:08

Rod, we should remind people that as

59:10

John reminded us with Congress having the

59:12

power of the purse, people put them

59:14

there. Right? And if NASA science

59:16

matters to you, you can call

59:18

your congressman and tell them that,

59:21

so that they hear from you,

59:23

hopefully every day, you know, maybe

59:25

just call them everything. In fact,

59:27

I would say it's a civic

59:29

obligation. You must call your congressman,

59:31

write your congressman, and tell them

59:34

what you think, whether you're in favor

59:36

of, you know, the US being leaders

59:38

of the world in great science or

59:40

not. Hopefully you're in favor of that.

59:43

you're watching this this podcast. But if

59:45

they don't hear from you, they don't

59:47

know. And they make decisions based

59:50

on what their constituents, people

59:52

like you, tell them is important.

59:54

And I think, you know, NASA science

59:56

and NASA in general is one of

59:58

the best things that the United States does

1:00:01

for taxpayer funds. And it's a gift

1:00:03

that we've been giving to the world

1:00:05

since the beginning of the agency, which

1:00:07

is something that I think is underappreciated,

1:00:09

which is one of the reasons why

1:00:11

we send a copy of every quarterly

1:00:14

publication of Ad Astor magazine, which I

1:00:16

add it to all the members of

1:00:18

Congress at significant expense to make sure

1:00:20

that they at least give it to

1:00:22

their aides to read during their bathroom

1:00:25

breaks because these things are important. And

1:00:27

like John says. If you don't call,

1:00:29

they don't know and they need to know.

1:00:31

Sorry, Tarak, I jumped jumped in

1:00:33

on Friday over there. No, I

1:00:36

thought because this seemed like a

1:00:38

really good time to start talking

1:00:41

about the future as well. John,

1:00:43

you mentioned. successors to Hubble with,

1:00:45

you know, we talked a bit

1:00:48

about the Roman Space Telescope, but

1:00:50

you mentioned the habitable worlds observatory,

1:00:53

which you actually presented a study

1:00:55

at double A S about having

1:00:57

robotic servicing capabilities for that mission.

1:01:00

And I'm curious what the future

1:01:02

of space-based servicing telescopes

1:01:04

looks like to you. And

1:01:06

then maybe how much maybe

1:01:08

more time we'll get out

1:01:10

of the Hubble Space telescope

1:01:13

as well. Sure. Well, let's rewind

1:01:15

the movie a little bit

1:01:17

to 2004. In 2003, we

1:01:19

have the tragic loss of

1:01:21

spatial Columbia. And as a

1:01:23

result, the then mess administrator

1:01:26

Sean O'Keefe made the

1:01:28

decision that we would

1:01:30

not go back to Hubble.

1:01:32

And it was based on

1:01:34

an overall risk assessment. that if

1:01:36

a shuttle got stranded at Hubble,

1:01:39

you couldn't hang out for Hubble

1:01:41

for six months the way you

1:01:43

can on the space station. And

1:01:45

as Sunny Williams and Butch Wilmer

1:01:48

discovered even longer, that we wouldn't

1:01:50

do that mission. Yeah. At the time I

1:01:52

was NASA chief scientist. And so I

1:01:55

came up with the idea of, well,

1:01:57

what about a robotic servicing of

1:01:59

Hubble? And we actually showed

1:02:01

that you could do not

1:02:04

the complex things that we

1:02:06

had done on Hubble with

1:02:08

the space shuttle and space

1:02:11

walks, but you could remove

1:02:13

a big instrument like the

1:02:15

wide field camera to

1:02:18

and put in a

1:02:20

new wide field camera using

1:02:22

a simple robot. Now, once

1:02:24

we had returned to flight

1:02:26

figured out and a few other

1:02:29

things, If we're going to fly

1:02:31

the space shuttle, we should do

1:02:33

really important things with it. And

1:02:35

Hubble servicing was one of those.

1:02:37

And I was glad because he

1:02:39

asked me to go back. So

1:02:41

in 2009, we did a really

1:02:43

major upgrade and repair mission on

1:02:46

STS 125, such that Hubble

1:02:48

is still operating today 16

1:02:50

years later. And in fact,

1:02:52

the prediction is that Hubble

1:02:54

absent any major failure,

1:02:56

you never know. should

1:02:58

be able to continue

1:03:01

to do state-of-the-art forefront

1:03:03

science for another 10 years.

1:03:05

Which would be amazing. Now,

1:03:07

by that time, Hubble will be

1:03:09

45 years old. And so NASA

1:03:12

is starting work already.

1:03:14

Concept studies for a

1:03:17

super Hubble. And this will

1:03:19

be the first observatory

1:03:21

that's ever been conceived

1:03:24

of and built specifically

1:03:26

to look out into the cosmos,

1:03:28

actually to look at, you know,

1:03:30

nearby stars to image solar systems

1:03:33

to look for rocky planets

1:03:35

that have signs of life.

1:03:37

So there'll be sun-like stars

1:03:39

and hopefully we can find

1:03:41

a rocky planet in the

1:03:43

habitable zone and then study that to

1:03:45

see if we see any signs of

1:03:48

life on it. The current thinking is

1:03:50

it will be about a six meter

1:03:52

mirror, hubbles is 2.4 meters.

1:03:54

And it will go to the

1:03:56

same orbit as James Webb, a

1:03:58

million miles from Earth. to get

1:04:00

away from all the disturbances

1:04:02

around the earth. But that makes it

1:04:05

harder to service. And why would we

1:04:07

want to service it? Same reason

1:04:09

as Hubble. The instruments

1:04:11

that we'll launch with will be state

1:04:13

of the art at launch, but five

1:04:16

years after that, they won't be

1:04:18

quite as capable as what we

1:04:20

could build. And this trick of, you

1:04:22

know, blocking out the starlight from

1:04:24

a sunlight and seeing planets around

1:04:27

it is really, really hard. And

1:04:29

so we're going to be able

1:04:31

to get better at that over

1:04:33

time. The Roman Space Telescope will

1:04:35

give us a lot of information

1:04:37

about the performance of a chronograph

1:04:39

in space. That's the special instrument.

1:04:41

The first generation habitable world's

1:04:44

observatory, as it's called, will

1:04:46

give us more information, but it's

1:04:48

probably going to be the second

1:04:50

generation chronograph that will really

1:04:52

find us, those Earths, and the ability to

1:04:55

see if there's life there. To do that,

1:04:57

you'll have to swap them out. And

1:04:59

so a million miles from Earth

1:05:01

is not a great place to

1:05:03

send humans. But by 2045 say,

1:05:06

we should have very capable

1:05:08

servicing robots that we can

1:05:10

hire as a commercial service

1:05:12

to deliver the instrument,

1:05:14

swap them out, and then

1:05:16

send the observatory back on

1:05:18

its way. And so that's what

1:05:20

we're thinking. You know, my mantra

1:05:22

for this effort is make it

1:05:25

so easy, even a robot can

1:05:27

do it. That's fantastic.

1:05:29

As usual, we still have

1:05:31

questions left, but we're running out

1:05:33

of time, so I hope we

1:05:35

can have you back at some point.

1:05:37

That would be a delight. But

1:05:39

I want to thank you very much,

1:05:42

John, for coming on today for

1:05:44

episode 158, where we got to talk

1:05:46

about all kinds of cool stuff,

1:05:48

but especially one of our perennial favorites,

1:05:50

the Hubble Space Telescope. So for

1:05:52

our listeners viewers, you can keep up

1:05:55

with the latest on Hubble and

1:05:57

other things at... S-T-S-C-I-D-U, which is

1:05:59

the Space Telescope Science Institute.

1:06:01

John, is there some place

1:06:03

we can keep track of

1:06:06

you and your climbing adventures

1:06:08

and so forth online? I don't have

1:06:10

a website, but I do want to

1:06:12

say if you go to science. NASA.gov

1:06:15

slash missions slash Hubble,

1:06:17

that's another great place to

1:06:19

go. That's kind of the current

1:06:21

Hubble Central as NASA has

1:06:24

been directed to consolidate

1:06:26

all of its websites. So

1:06:28

again, that's science dot NASA.gov

1:06:30

slash missions slash Hubble.

1:06:33

Or if you go to science dot

1:06:35

NASA.gov, you'll see all of the

1:06:37

missions, which is a good thing

1:06:39

to do. And I'd be remiss if

1:06:41

I didn't say one more time,

1:06:43

you know, write your Congress

1:06:46

folks, write your House

1:06:48

representatives, write your Senate,

1:06:50

and you can go to White

1:06:52

House.gov and, you know,

1:06:54

every American citizen. can give

1:06:56

President Trump their input.

1:06:58

You beat me to the punch, I

1:07:01

was going to say, all together now,

1:07:03

write your representative. All right, Tarak,

1:07:05

where can we find you writing

1:07:07

your representative these days? Well, you

1:07:09

can find me at space.com, as

1:07:11

always, and on, what is it?

1:07:13

on the X I guess at

1:07:15

Tarak J. Malik and Blue Sky

1:07:17

as well. That's me. And I

1:07:19

guess this weekend, we'll be at

1:07:21

the Pinewood Derby, hoping that we

1:07:23

have the most aerodynamic car. We'll

1:07:25

see how my daughter fares in

1:07:27

her Girl Scout meat and having

1:07:29

some cake, because I'm 48

1:07:31

today, and so that's really

1:07:33

exciting. Well, I hope you

1:07:35

did the computational fluid dynamics

1:07:37

to demonstrate the aerodynamics of

1:07:39

the car. Way to put him in

1:07:41

his place, yeah! Which by the way,

1:07:44

that computational fluid dynamics, you know, a

1:07:46

lot of the state-of-the-art stuff was developed

1:07:48

by now, so... Remember, the first day

1:07:50

is aeronautics. Boy, and that would be

1:07:52

a merit badge and a half, wouldn't

1:07:54

it? I tell you, I tell you.

1:07:56

Of course, you can find me at

1:07:59

Pyle Books.com, or... And it's us.org

1:08:01

and various other places. Now

1:08:03

remember, you can always drop us

1:08:05

a line at TWIT.TV. We do welcome

1:08:07

your comments, suggestions, and ideas, especially

1:08:09

if you're saying it nicely. And

1:08:12

we will answer each and every

1:08:14

letter. New episodes of the podcast

1:08:16

published every Friday and your favorite

1:08:19

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1:08:21

subscribe, like, tell your friends, and

1:08:23

give us reviews and hats off

1:08:25

to John. Five stars will take whatever

1:08:27

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Instagram. John, thank you very much for

1:08:55

joining us today. It has been an

1:08:58

absolute pleasure pleasure. and I hope we get

1:09:00

to talk to you again. My pleasure,

1:09:02

and may you live long and prosper.

1:09:04

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