0:00

Coming up on This Week in Space

0:02

is the truth really out there. We're

0:04

gonna get to the bottom of UFOs,

0:06

UAPs and conspiracy theorists in general with

0:08

expert debunker, Mick West. So, stay tuned. This

0:21

is This Week in Space,

0:23

episode number 147, recorded

0:25

on February 7th, 2025. 5

0:27

Not As They Seem Hello

0:29

and welcome to This

0:31

Week in Space, the Not

0:33

As They Seem edition. I'm

0:36

Rod Pyle, Editor -in -Chief, Bad Astro

0:38

Magazine, and I'm joined by my closest

0:40

ever pal, Tarek Malik, Editor -in -Chief

0:42

at Space .com. Hello, sir. Hey, how's

0:45

it going, Rod? How are you

0:47

doing? I'm good. I forgot to put on...

0:49

Hold on a second. I forgot to put on

0:51

my... Oh, look at this. I didn't

0:53

know we supposed to wear props. Well, it's

0:55

your idea. I think mine are at a very

0:57

rakish angle now. I was gonna make a

0:59

tinfoil hat and then I got... The reason I

1:01

have these on... Oh, you know, we did

1:04

tinfoil hats about a year and a half ago.

1:06

That was a fun one. The reason I

1:08

have this on is because we'll soon be speaking

1:10

with Mick West, the incomparable gentleman who has risen

1:12

to fame as one of the most reasonable

1:15

and actually epithetic voices in,

1:17

among other things, the

1:19

UFO UAP discussion as a

1:21

seeker of reason and an

1:23

explainer. And I came across

1:25

his work when it was

1:28

specific to the GoFast video. One of

1:30

those UAP videos released, well, not

1:32

released, leaked from the Navy that

1:34

they later said, okay, okay, we'll

1:36

release the same thing officially. And

1:40

he's not just

1:42

a critical thinker and a voice

1:44

of reason, but he's kind about

1:46

it. Yeah, very

1:48

respectful. Yeah, and this

1:51

discussion between believers and non -believers can

1:53

get pretty loud and pretty angry and

1:55

pretty hot. So it's nice to have

1:57

somebody come in and calmly discuss it.

2:00

to both sides, which I

2:02

think is very unique to a

2:04

small group of people that includes him.

2:06

Before we start, however, please

2:08

don't forget to do us a solid

2:10

and make sure to like, subscribe, and

2:12

other cool podcast things because

2:15

we need your love, especially

2:18

Tarek. He does us. I'm very

2:20

sad, everybody. And now we're

2:22

here to debunk our questionable humor

2:24

segment with another quality joke

2:26

from Nate Tanner. Hey, Tarek. Hey,

2:28

Rod. How do we know that

2:30

Marston's used the metric system? How do we know?

2:32

How do we know that? I don't know. Because

2:34

they always say, take me to your leader. I

2:37

think we actually used that before, didn't

2:40

we? I don't know. I don't know,

2:42

but it's still funny. Thank you, Nate.

2:44

Thank you, Nate. Yeah. Keep

2:47

him coming. He said a batch of

2:49

about five, so I probably should have

2:51

sent him a check, but this is

2:53

me we're talking about here. Now, I've

2:55

heard that some people want to send

2:57

us to Mars with this joke time

2:59

on this show, but you can help

3:01

send your best, worst, or most of

3:03

different space joke to us at twits

3:05

at twit .tv. That's TWYS at twit .tv.

3:07

And now, hold it.

3:10

Time for headlines! Headline

3:12

news. Oh, I always

3:14

miss. I

3:18

got it right this time. Well,

3:20

yeah. So it's funny. You picked

3:22

at the last minute, I might

3:24

add, you picked three completely different

3:26

headlines than the ones that I

3:28

was looking at, and I get

3:30

them off of space .com. I know.

3:33

I picked for everyone listening,

3:35

Rod lets me pick all the headlines, and

3:37

then I wait until the last minute because I

3:39

want to know what the big headlines are

3:41

for the week and Rod wants know. That's not

3:43

why. like, Tuesday, he wants them in there

3:45

on Tuesday. You're

3:50

noticed that you also put extra headlines

3:52

in today because of that. So maybe we'll

3:54

get there. Maybe we can be fast

3:56

and then we can talk about all of

3:58

them. So I just learned something. on Discord

4:00

from Tanya W-42. Tanya! You said

4:02

nice dealy boppers, Rod. I didn't

4:05

know these things had a name.

4:07

Yeah, your little, your little antenna?

4:09

They're dealy boppers? I've heard the

4:11

term before, but it did not

4:14

come to mind when you put

4:16

your antenna on, because to me

4:18

they're just wiggly wobbles. And here

4:21

I just always thought they were

4:23

signs of inferior intelligence. From the

4:25

80s. All right, let's talk about... Spaceex

4:27

is Dragon's swap for Starliner crew. The

4:29

story that just keeps giving. This is

4:32

great because actually, so this comes from

4:34

Arstetnica and Eric Berger over there, and

4:36

this is like on the QT, right,

4:38

because it came out like yesterday or

4:41

a day ago as we're recording this.

4:43

And it's not official yet. Why we're

4:45

talking to the world about it. We're

4:47

actually expecting NASA to make an announcement.

4:50

Maybe they have, well, we've been recording

4:52

this, this podcast, but. But Eric, you

4:54

know, has his sources at NASA

4:56

amongst the space flight leadership,

4:59

who says that NASA could

5:01

announce, as very soon, that

5:03

the astronauts, Butch Wilmore and

5:06

Sunita Williams, on the international,

5:08

you know, the stuck Starlander

5:10

astronauts, could return actually

5:13

earlier stranded. Stranded. Stranded.

5:15

Somebody recently said they

5:18

were stranded. That's right.

5:20

Herald clinging to life on

5:22

the space station, right? No,

5:25

no. At death's door, abandoned.

5:27

I think that Trump called

5:29

them abandoned, if memory serves.

5:31

But anyway, the the TLDR

5:33

is that, according to Eric,

5:35

the Paris that be at

5:37

NASA, have decided to bring

5:40

them home a little bit earlier,

5:42

not a little bit earlier. Then

5:44

plan so instead of late March,

5:47

which is when they they were

5:49

expected to come back on a

5:51

SpaceX Dragon crew nine spacecraft

5:54

They They they could come home in

5:57

March You know March 19th, you know

5:59

the the initial plan was that

6:01

these astronauts who flew up on Starliner,

6:03

they didn't come home because Starliner had

6:05

its issues, they were going to come

6:08

back on a SpaceX Dragon. NASA said

6:10

the next available one for them to

6:12

come back on was on the Crew

6:14

9 Dragon, which just recently launched. And

6:17

so that was slated to return home

6:19

in February. But in December, NASA pushed

6:21

it back by at least a month

6:23

because SpaceX's next dragon spacecraft for Crew

6:26

10, the relief crew, was not ready.

6:28

In fact, according to Eric. crew dragon

6:30

vehicle because it's a new version of

6:32

the dragon spacecraft and NASA says they

6:35

can't wait because apparently those problems are

6:37

still not solved and they may not

6:39

be able to get that capsule ready

6:41

to fly until sometime in April which

6:44

would be a really big delay and

6:46

then they start running on red lines

6:48

for food for air for water for

6:50

all that stuff that you don't want

6:53

to run on red lines for at

6:55

the space station so all right they're

6:57

gonna swap the the dragon capsule out

6:59

and the one that they're gonna use

7:02

was one that was in line for

7:04

the axiom space for a mission a

7:06

private mission and you know it's the

7:08

endurance dragon it's flown to the space

7:11

station before they move that up and

7:13

and then I've been sitting here like

7:15

concentrating on this story and you've been

7:17

adding alien eyes do you hey am

7:19

I'm watching you am I just want

7:22

to I just want to get through

7:24

three or four more stories so I'm

7:26

trying to compact your answer? There are

7:28

all media, the meaty stories. Asteroid impact

7:31

odds going up, but don't worry. This

7:33

is an important one because people are

7:35

worried. Yeah, yeah, we talked about this

7:37

asteroid on the show before. This comes

7:40

from my colleague Rob Lee. It's a

7:42

really great story at space.com. I really

7:44

recommend people check it out. But there

7:46

was, there is this newfound asteroid 2024,

7:49

Y.R. 4. NASA and some others announced

7:51

that it had a one and 83

7:53

chance. According to the math, I'm not

7:55

the math genius, that's what I was

7:58

told. And Rob has found out, Rob

8:00

has found out. that those odds have

8:02

increased slightly to one in 43. And

8:04

so a lot of people, you might

8:07

have seen online, are trumpeting this, the

8:09

odds are going up, this asteroid is

8:11

gonna kill us in 2032, it's gonna

8:13

hit Earth. And according to Rob, and

8:15

the scientists he's spoken to,

8:18

it's like not so fast, because

8:20

there's still a 97.7, I think

8:22

he says chance, yeah, 97 chance,

8:24

that it's gonna miss us. So before

8:26

you start like building your

8:28

bunker or selling off all

8:31

your worldly possessions, you know, take

8:33

a step back, have a cup of

8:35

coffee, have a cup of tea, and relax,

8:37

it's going to be fine. So

8:39

it's these odds will go down

8:41

over more and more as they

8:43

get more observations of it. And

8:45

so it's a little early to

8:47

get upset and worried. Sky is

8:49

falling! Shake up at Rose Cosmos!

8:52

We had, who was the

8:54

guy that was there before

8:56

who was crazy? Demetri, Burgosan.

8:58

Burgosan? Burgosan. Trepoline, everyone needs

9:00

it. Everyone needs a trampoline to

9:03

get the, which is Brooms. And

9:05

then he gets replaced and the

9:07

poor guy last two and a

9:10

half years. Well, yeah, Yuri, he

9:12

was replaced by Yuri Borisov. And

9:14

now, Putin has said.

9:16

Dostvidonia, right? Is that

9:18

too soon to say that? To

9:21

Yuri Borsov. In fact, and this

9:23

came out of the Moscow Times

9:25

this week, he has been, Putin

9:28

has replaced him with a relatively

9:30

young new space chief, Dmitri Bakkenev,

9:32

who... 37 years old. Yeah, well,

9:35

he's 39, we have. You see

9:37

37? Is that... Maybe we have

9:39

that wrong. So, but he was

9:42

much he was the Russia's deputy

9:44

transport minister and he led their

9:46

GONET satellite communication system program from 2011

9:49

to 2019. So he is, he is.

9:51

Oh, look at this guy. I know.

9:53

He looks like a GQ model. I

9:55

know, look at that. Why isn't he

9:58

on the front lines in Ukraine? What's

10:00

going on here? So,

10:03

you know, he's taking

10:06

the reins from Borisov and

10:08

then I guess to

10:10

continue Rogozin's legacy, but it'll

10:12

be interesting to see

10:14

what happens. Is this because

10:16

of the relatively turbulent period

10:20

that was going on with

10:22

Borisov and the fact that they

10:24

had the failure of their

10:26

Luna 25 moon sample return mission.

10:29

And, you know, and just like a

10:31

lot of other issues, there was the

10:33

leak on the space station, which is

10:35

in the Russian segment, you had the

10:37

Soyuz, I think, during Borisov's

10:40

term to the hole in the Soyuz,

10:42

all of that stuff, which they tried to

10:44

pin on a NASA astronaut, by the

10:47

way. of course, desperate astronauts go and drill

10:49

holes in Russian spacecraft. Yeah, totally not

10:51

behind instrument panels, we might add. Yeah. So,

10:53

try to get home. Anyway, so, so,

10:55

so new chief is the new boss, same

10:57

as the old boss, we're going to

10:59

have to wait and see. And will this

11:01

at least help them do anything to

11:03

accelerate their other space programs instead of just

11:05

keep on keeping on, we're going to

11:07

have to wait and see, too. Well, and

11:09

the last I checked their budget was

11:11

very smart. I think it was the equivalent

11:13

of two billion U .S. Is that right?

11:15

Yeah, it's barely enough to keep to

11:18

keep the current slate. It's very hard to

11:20

do anything extra beyond what they're doing

11:22

at the space station right now. Which, which

11:24

ain't much. Okay. Viper

11:26

replacement. So Viper is the NASA

11:28

rover, very capable prospecting rover that

11:30

was going to be delivered to

11:32

the southern pole region of the

11:34

moon and go prospecting for water

11:36

ice and do other scientific analysis.

11:38

And as listeners regularly listen to

11:40

this show, no, it was canceled

11:42

by NASA last year, even though

11:44

it was basically finished and had

11:47

a ride on a private vendor

11:49

who was behind schedule. And it's,

11:51

it's just been a mess. The

11:53

inside word is there was not

11:55

as much agency support for this

11:57

as there could have been, which

12:00

maybe could be part of the reason

12:02

that yeah got pulled even though it

12:04

was complete but they are now taking

12:06

at NASA soliciting bids from

12:09

commercial players other than the

12:11

one it was originally supposed to

12:13

fly on to go ahead and

12:15

finish the mission to get it to

12:17

the moon however the people who

12:19

were going to launch Viper now

12:21

have a replacement from a fellow

12:24

private company called Flip which is

12:26

not that much smaller. It's half

12:28

the size and weight, I think

12:30

a viper. But is flip Viper's dimwitted

12:32

cousin or is it actually another capable

12:35

rover? No, if the flip is actually

12:37

a moon rover designed by those that

12:39

the company that did the the flex

12:41

rover remember when you and I went

12:44

to that conference a year or so

12:46

ago and we saw that big that

12:48

big moon rover Oh Yeah, we took

12:51

our pictures on it. It's a company

12:53

called Astrolab and they have built this

12:55

smaller rover prototype called flip that they

12:57

that is basically snagging NASA's previous ride

13:00

to the moon with Griffin. Now the

13:02

reason that that Viper was pulled

13:04

is because NASA wasn't sure if

13:06

Griffin was going to be ready

13:08

currently it still is not ready

13:10

to go but this it's they

13:12

still had the capability to take

13:14

a rover and so they have

13:16

found this this replacement river and it's

13:18

going to give Astro Lab both

13:20

some wheels on the moon, Astro Lab

13:23

by the way is based in California,

13:25

and they're going to be able to

13:27

showcase what this commercial rubber can do

13:30

so they can take commercial payloads and

13:32

what flip stands for Flex, Flex is

13:34

the name of the primary rover, Flex

13:37

Lunar Innovation platform. It's a four

13:39

wheeled rover that weighs about a thousand

13:41

pounds. It is not small. And it

13:43

always, it can carry up to 66.

13:46

pounds of experiments, payload, etc. And it

13:48

can do exploration work on its own

13:50

but can also test technologies that they

13:53

want to use on their bigger rover,

13:55

which is the one that astronauts could

13:57

use. It's called flexible logistics and exploration.

13:59

So, and that's a car-sized robot that

14:02

could carry a couple of astronauts and

14:04

will fly on a Space X lander.

14:06

So, so, you know, the the TLDR

14:09

there is that... Space X lander?

14:11

Yeah, Space X's Starship is going

14:13

to carry one of your safety.

14:15

They've booked a trip on that

14:17

with the flex, the flex rover.

14:19

And so, so they're going to

14:21

test a lot of what they need

14:23

for that bigger rover on this smaller

14:25

one. Okay. And finally, sorry, but we

14:28

got to get... We got to get through

14:30

here. You're the one that added extra stories

14:32

to the news budget. You're the one. They

14:34

were good, Mr. Winie Pants. What do Trump's

14:36

first weeks back in office being approved NASA

14:39

and space flight? Yeah, this is a long

14:41

story. So I'm going to put the link

14:43

in our in our show notes so that

14:45

our readers and listeners can do it. But

14:48

it's been only a couple of weeks. since

14:50

the Trump administration began and already what a

14:52

couple of weeks. Yeah, but and my head

14:54

has been spinning and it got me thinking

14:57

that maybe if my head is spinning maybe

14:59

many of our listeners and readers

15:01

enter spinning as well and Mike

15:03

Gruss over at Space News has

15:05

a excellent overview of all of

15:07

the things that have happened that

15:10

affect NASA as well as space

15:12

exploration from the executive orders that

15:14

have gone out from the fact

15:16

that Elon Musk is running the

15:18

Doge office to attack or I

15:20

guess budget and spending initiatives across

15:22

I shouldn't say attack but to

15:25

address right and I don't know

15:27

that attack is it depends on

15:29

which part we talk about and of

15:31

course you can't leave DEA out of

15:33

the in inclusion. So there's a really

15:36

good rundown there that I really encourage

15:38

everyone to take a look because it

15:40

is a good score sheet for what

15:42

has happened over the last two weeks

15:44

and what may be coming down the

15:47

pipeline. I would say that everyone should

15:49

be keeping an eye out next Wednesday

15:51

on the Commercial Space Conference because that

15:53

is where Janet Petro, the acting head

15:55

of NASA, the acting in NASA administrator,

15:58

will be giving a fireside chat. which

16:00

I think might be the first

16:02

fully public set of comments from

16:04

her about where she sees NASA

16:06

going right now in this interim

16:08

period before they get a permanent

16:10

administrator. So we're gonna be watching

16:12

that too. That is on February 12th.

16:14

I like not in my head

16:16

and watching my, what are they

16:19

called, dingle boppers? Your weebel wobbles?

16:21

My weebel wobble, but they don't

16:23

fall down. Deely Boppers, Deely Boppers.

16:25

Okay, before we run to a

16:27

break before Big West comes on,

16:29

I owe an apology to Dr.

16:32

Sariah Haruki of USRA, who we

16:34

had an interview with their new

16:36

director last week, set up by

16:38

her, who is not the executive

16:40

assistant or associate, whatever I said,

16:42

I was caught flat-footed because

16:44

I hadn't finished doing my

16:47

homework that day. She is

16:49

the director of communications. and

16:51

she's a director of communications

16:53

unlike me that has a

16:55

PhD. I'm a director of communications

16:57

with the National Space Society with

16:59

a master's degree, she's got a

17:02

PhD, so she outrags me, so

17:04

for, so sorry, my apology, I was

17:06

quoted myself. And your version of

17:08

the video is not corrected. All

17:10

right, now that that stuff's behind us,

17:13

let's get to Mick West. We'll be

17:15

right back everybody, so close your hatches

17:17

and button up. We are

17:20

back with Mick West, science

17:22

writer, professional debunker, and premier

17:24

critical thinker. Mick, thanks for

17:26

joining us today. We're really glad

17:29

to have you. And besides the

17:31

copious writing you do, you've also

17:33

created a couple of really cool

17:36

websites. One's called Metabunk.

17:38

My favorite is called Contrail Science.

17:40

And I do want to get

17:42

into a proper start for

17:44

the episode, but just out

17:46

of curiosity. What made you go

17:48

so specific as contrail science? Was

17:51

it just seeing how wacky the

17:53

conversations were? Well, it's a very

17:55

specific conspiracy theory, the chemtrails

17:57

conspiracy theory, and you know,

17:59

she's a... that the government is

18:01

spraying things. And it's actually cropped up

18:03

again quite recently. There's a bunch of

18:05

people in local government who have been

18:07

convinced by this theory, and they've started

18:09

to introduce legislation banning chem trails. These

18:11

white lines in the sky, which are

18:13

actually just contrails. So back then I

18:16

just was kind of interested in flying

18:18

and things like that. And so I

18:20

started writing a blog about the science

18:22

behind contrails and how it explains chem

18:24

trails, which kind of a fun little

18:26

thing to write about. And that's kind

18:28

of the root of all of this

18:30

stuff that I've been doing now. I

18:33

have seen those theories on my

18:35

social media. It was a surprise

18:38

to start seeing it there. Well,

18:40

and then, you know, because we're

18:42

writers and we both have venues,

18:45

we get those messages on LinkedIn

18:47

and Facebook and so forth, people

18:49

are saying, you need to tell

18:51

the truth. They're killing us all.

18:54

And for some reason, it's always,

18:56

not can I put it, it

18:58

seems like the... The perpetrator is

19:00

always identified on a particular part

19:03

of the political spectrum and the

19:05

victims are always identified as being

19:07

on another part broadly. And that

19:09

always makes you suspect. All right,

19:12

but we're not here just to

19:14

talk about cat trails. We're here

19:16

to talk about other things in

19:19

this guy. So Tark's going to

19:21

have his trademark early life question

19:23

for you soon, but what got

19:25

you started in this particular? area

19:28

of science explanation. UFOs? Well, just

19:30

debunking in general, because you're kind

19:32

of setting yourself up with a

19:34

big red bullseye painted on your

19:37

back. Yeah. Well, I've always been

19:39

interested in science. You know, I

19:41

read a lot of science fiction

19:44

as a kid. I learned to

19:46

read by reading my dad's collection

19:48

of Marvel and DC comics. So

19:50

I've had this strong, strong... background

19:53

in science fiction that translated into

19:55

an interest in science and then

19:57

at school I preferred doing like

19:59

math. medical stuff and physics than

20:02

rather than the other subjects. And

20:04

so I kind of just developed

20:06

a good skill set for what

20:08

turned into video game programming. And

20:11

I did video game programming for a

20:13

few decades to make some money. And

20:15

then I kind of retired and when

20:18

I retired, I just kind of

20:20

followed my interests, which were things

20:22

like science and math and stuff

20:24

like that. And like naturally kind

20:26

of led to a few. topics

20:29

that people were claiming were interesting

20:31

and one of those was chemtrails.

20:33

There are other things like other

20:35

conspiracy theories like the World Trade

20:38

Center being demolished by explosives and

20:40

now of course I'm really into

20:42

UFOs and that's almost like the

20:44

perfect mix for my unique set

20:46

of skills I guess. C. Tarak,

20:49

somebody who ended up doing something

20:51

different because he could not because

20:53

like you and I that's all he

20:55

was capable of doing. And by the

20:57

way, Mick, when you say, oh I

21:00

did some video game programming, that means

21:02

you're actually like responsible

21:05

for things like Tony Hawk, the

21:07

skateboarding game, Spider-Man, and guitar hero,

21:09

which I would assume means you never

21:12

have to work again as long as

21:14

you live. Well I would say that

21:16

because I really only did Tony Hawk

21:19

which is the skateboard I have right

21:21

there and I left the company Neversoft.

21:23

I was one of the founders of

21:25

the company Neversoft which created the Tony

21:28

Hawk franchise but I left after that

21:30

so I missed out on the the

21:32

Golden Years of Guitar Hero and then

21:35

the other things. Well, that Spider-Man game

21:37

was really hard, I have to say. Sorry.

21:39

Yeah, Spider-Man. I did a little bit of

21:41

work on Spider-Man, on the PS-1, the original

21:43

one, but that was way back in the

21:45

day, and Neverself was splitting into two teams,

21:47

and then we came back together, and we

21:49

just did skateboarding games. Yeah, that was kind

21:51

of a fun time in my life, back

21:54

in the 90s and the early 2000, when

21:56

we were working on these games, but that

21:58

stuff that stuff that it did back. then

22:00

is kind of like, in a way,

22:02

stuff that I'm doing right now. I

22:04

do a lot of programming just, you

22:06

know, just last night, I was coding

22:09

away and the coding tasks that I'm

22:11

doing now are very similar to what

22:13

I was doing back in, you know,

22:15

the early 2000s with Tony Hawk. He

22:18

said, now I have a little AI

22:20

assistance to help me instead of other

22:22

programmers. But yeah, it's very interesting to

22:24

me how, you know, that skill set

22:26

translated translated into investigating UFOs. My kind

22:29

of trademark question that Rod was alluding

22:31

to is usually like what what is

22:33

like this space bug like how how

22:35

how did it bite you when you

22:38

were a kid but you kind of

22:40

hinted at that a bit you know

22:42

about you know reading your dad's comic

22:44

books and and whatnot but but I

22:46

am interested about that that early decision

22:49

to pursue like coding that that led

22:51

you kind of on that that that

22:53

more kind of computer facing. you know

22:55

engineering type of journey. I mean was

22:58

there something that just grew naturally out

23:00

of your interest in science that led

23:02

you to computers like that or was

23:04

it like a different type of a

23:07

fulcrum moment where you decided that you

23:09

were going to kind of pursue that

23:11

professionally at least at the outset? Now

23:13

my interesting computers was a very kind

23:15

of organic thing back when I was

23:18

you know, my teens, my grandfather gave

23:20

me a programmable calculator. This would have

23:22

been in the late 70s, I think.

23:24

And he encouraged me to learn how

23:27

to program it. And so I did.

23:29

I wrote like very simple games on

23:31

this calculator that had about literally 50

23:33

bytes of memory that you could use,

23:35

so you could record keystrokes. And then

23:38

again, my grandfather inspired me because he...

23:40

he was very interested in math and

23:42

he also he bought himself a computer

23:44

and you know I went I got

23:47

a paper round and I saved up

23:49

for a computer which back then was

23:51

a ZX 81 with one kilobacter memory

23:53

and I taught myself to code and

23:55

it was just a fun thing to

23:58

do and being a kid, a teenager,

24:00

the fun things to code back then

24:02

were video games. So you would make

24:04

simple games on these computers. And as

24:07

the computers get more and more powerful,

24:09

you could make more and more involved

24:11

games and that naturally just kind of

24:13

led into me going to university to

24:15

study computer science and then getting a

24:18

job in the games industry. And so

24:20

now here I am. That's awesome. That's

24:22

awesome. So my daughter, she's going into

24:24

honors computer science. So it's like an

24:27

inspiration story I can give her. Thank

24:29

you so much. It's very different nowadays.

24:31

I think AI is changing

24:33

the equation quite considerably. Yeah, one

24:35

would almost say cheating, but that would

24:37

be unfair. So I wonder if you could

24:39

talk a little bit. You know, you kind

24:42

of touched on your childhood and at

24:44

least according to a couple of websites,

24:46

you had an interest as a young

24:48

man in things like UFOs and

24:50

psychic phenomenon. But initially, as I

24:52

read it, not as a doubter,

24:54

but more as somebody who was

24:56

kind of embracing the possibility of

24:58

it. Yeah, I mean I guess as a

25:00

child I was, you know, I grew

25:02

up Catholic, I was raised Catholic, and

25:05

now I'm no longer Catholic. And back

25:07

then, you know, you believe in essentially

25:09

magical things, like I believed if I

25:11

prayed, then God would give me things.

25:13

And we also had little beliefs like

25:15

that, there were fairies in the woods

25:18

and things like that was, we were

25:20

young kids. And then you grow up

25:22

a little bit and then you learn

25:24

more about science and things and you

25:26

think if Santa isn't real, there isn't

25:29

real and maybe you start to have

25:31

doubts about religious figures as well. But at

25:33

the same time I'm getting more and

25:35

more interested in science. and reading all

25:37

these science fiction, my dad didn't just

25:39

have a collection of comics, he had

25:41

a huge collection of science fiction books.

25:43

He was a big fan of science

25:45

fiction. He used to take us as

25:47

kids to science fiction conventions, which was

25:49

going to a weird thing for a,

25:51

you know, like a seven-year-old kid to

25:53

be going to this convention with all

25:55

these grown-ups dressing up in those aliens

25:57

and things. Yeah. Yeah, so I had...

26:00

this very, you know, I guess,

26:02

you know, interesting upbringing in that

26:04

sense. And then I just kind

26:06

of got interested in, I found

26:08

this magazine called The U

26:10

unexplained, which is a British kind

26:12

of periodical. And it had all

26:15

kinds of interesting stuff like ghosts

26:17

and UFOs and strange psychic powers

26:19

and things like that just fascinated

26:22

me. And also at the same

26:24

time as, you know, reading, excuse

26:26

me, reading books. I remember

26:28

a particular one book by Roll Dahl,

26:30

which I believe has been made into

26:33

a movie right now, it's about a guy

26:35

who thinks he has psychic powers, and

26:37

he trained himself to have psychic powers.

26:39

Yeah, I'm like a kid, like, I

26:41

think I can do that. I can train myself

26:43

to have psychic powers, so I tried that.

26:46

Didn't work, but yeah, I was, you know,

26:48

for a while, you're convinced these things that

26:50

were real. Then you start to investigate

26:52

them. And then this is kind of

26:54

transition between. childhood and this belief in

26:56

the magic and the supernatural and science.

26:58

And if you get into a lot

27:00

of science, it kind of makes all

27:02

this stuff, you know, you can see

27:04

this, but what it actually is, that

27:07

a lot of it is just, excuse

27:09

me, a lot of this is just a belief and

27:11

not actually evidence-based belief. It's just essentially faith.

27:13

And so as I grew, I moved more

27:15

and more towards the science, but I'm still

27:17

interested in this other stuff. But now from

27:20

a different perspective, so now I'm looking at

27:22

how do I'm looking at how do I

27:24

explain these things. you know how do I

27:26

explain you know the what people saw when

27:28

they think they saw a ghost and you

27:31

know now how do I explain what people

27:33

saw when they think they saw a UFO

27:35

yeah yeah I'm interested in that

27:37

as well and I'm also interested

27:39

in why people believe and why

27:41

that is so seductive because it

27:43

seems to be not a uniquely

27:45

American thing but there is a

27:48

uniquely American flavor to some of

27:50

the conspiracy theories and how they're

27:52

embraced by the way I just want

27:54

to mention Roll Doll,

27:57

I mean, incredible thinker

27:59

outside. the box and beyond the

28:01

box, the boxes, and I'm not sure

28:03

if I was a publisher, I would

28:05

have ever allowed him anywhere near Children's

28:07

Books because he has kind of a

28:09

twisted mentality, but he wrote, if I

28:11

recall correctly, he wrote the original screenplay

28:13

for You Only Live Twice, the Bond

28:15

movie, which actually makes a lot of

28:18

sense, if you remember the movie. Let's

28:20

go to a quick break. We'll be

28:22

right back and Tarck can jump in

28:24

with his next impassion question. Stand By.

28:27

By the way, I just want to

28:29

say you're talking about going to odd

28:31

conventions as a kid. You're lucky AlienCon

28:33

didn't exist then or your brain really

28:35

would have been twisted in interesting directions.

28:38

It's a lot of fun actually. It's

28:40

just not really my thing. Tark. Yeah,

28:42

I thought it was my turn to

28:44

talk, Rod, right? That's why it opened

28:46

on me. That's why it took it

28:49

away from you. No, actually I had

28:51

a question about the books that you

28:53

were interested in growing up too, just

28:55

really quickly because... my family had those

28:57

time life, unexplained phenomena series of books,

28:59

that that was like my first exposure

29:02

to it. And I'm just curious if

29:04

you had those kinds of books or

29:06

if there was a science fiction book

29:08

in particular that really gripped you at

29:10

that kind of formative age, that really

29:12

stuck with you as well. And that

29:15

was kind of my big question that

29:17

was burning from that that that segment

29:19

there. Yeah. Now I there. A lot

29:21

of books, I can't remember the name

29:23

of the authors right now, but I

29:26

read a lot about C. Clark when

29:28

I was young, like rendezvous with Rama,

29:30

childhood's end, books like that, like which

29:32

are about essentially like humanity's first encounter

29:34

with aliens, which is always a fascinating

29:36

thing to me, like, you know, what

29:39

would happen when we encounter an alien

29:41

species and how it would be different.

29:43

And I really enjoy books where aliens

29:45

are very different to us. There's a

29:47

book called Dragons Egg. which is about

29:49

aliens that live on the surface of

29:52

a neutron star essentially. And they operate

29:54

in a very different time scale to

29:56

work, so they're actually moving like a

29:58

thousand times as fast as they think

30:00

of that. times as fast as well.

30:03

So that type of stuff was always

30:05

fascinating to me. And I read a

30:07

lot of the older science fiction stuff

30:09

that's because my dad, you know, he

30:11

had this collection of books from when

30:14

he was younger that he'd kept all

30:16

these years. So I read a lot

30:18

of books from the, you know, the

30:21

50s, 60s, and 70s. So I guess

30:23

I had a very broad range of

30:25

sources. And then I went to the

30:27

library a lot. I was lucky enough.

30:30

I could just walk down to the

30:32

local library and then they had a

30:34

large science fiction selection. So I

30:36

read quite voraciously as a child.

30:38

your own book with escaping the

30:40

rabbit hole which is all about

30:42

how to debunk conspiracy theories and

30:44

people should should definitely check that

30:47

out. Was that something that you

30:49

gravitated to from the work that you had

30:51

you had been doing like were there any

30:53

kind of inspirations that came from that I

30:55

guess that reading childhood? Yeah I definitely

30:58

wanted to write all my life when I

31:00

was younger and you know it's one of

31:02

those things you everybody wants to write a

31:05

book and it's hard to get around to

31:07

doing it. And you know it was kind

31:09

of. looking for me in a way that

31:11

I kind of got forced into writing, escaping

31:14

the rabbit hole, just because there was in

31:16

the right place at the right time, I

31:18

went on the Joe Rogan podcast. back when

31:20

he wasn't quite such a, you know, the

31:23

type of person that he is now. Although

31:25

he's always been a bit strange, Joe Rogan.

31:27

A polarizing figure, we'll say. Indeed.

31:29

Indeed, yes. Lots of fans, but

31:32

anyway. So I went on the

31:34

Joe Rogan podcast, which is quite

31:36

big, and the publisher approached me

31:38

and said, you would write a

31:40

book about the stuff that you

31:43

talked about on the show, and

31:45

I was like, sure, let's do

31:47

it. I work a lot better

31:49

when I'm working with other people.

31:52

So it was good to have

31:54

that kind of external force moving

31:56

me to write this book. But

31:58

I felt it was. there's a

32:00

book that was needed and is

32:02

perhaps needed even more now. There's

32:05

a lot of disinformation out there.

32:07

I updated the book recently and

32:09

I kind of made a distinction

32:11

between these older conspiracies, which are

32:13

kind of static and don't really

32:15

change very much, and these new

32:17

conspiracies that we have, which are

32:19

very, very dynamic, changing from day

32:21

to day, like Qenon and things

32:23

like that. And even now, the

32:25

UFO world is very, very dynamic,

32:27

as is constantly shifting whistle blowers

32:29

coming out and promises of things

32:31

just around the corner. It's not

32:33

the kind of like, you know,

32:35

the not some bolts lights of

32:37

the sky, it was perhaps 10

32:40

years ago. you're steering us towards

32:42

the meat of the conversation, which

32:44

I appreciate. I just want to

32:46

ask one thing before we go

32:48

to the kind of main line

32:50

of the conversation, which is about

32:52

UFO theories and observations and some

32:54

of this emerging so-called whistleblower evidence

32:56

and all that. What do you

32:58

think it is though about modern

33:00

society? You know, personally I kind

33:02

of blame it on social media,

33:04

but that's what people my age

33:06

do when they're not out yelling

33:08

at the clouds in their front

33:10

yard. But... You know, as a

33:12

young person, I would never have

33:15

looked at a former wrestler like

33:17

Joe Rogan or a basketball guy

33:19

like Steve Curry to cultivate my

33:21

opinions about, you know, did we

33:23

land on the moon or, you

33:25

know, do people really get abducted

33:27

and probed and all that kind

33:29

of stuff. So there's been the

33:31

shift towards just general, generally idolizing,

33:33

you know, non-acadmissions, non-scientists, whereas when

33:35

I was a kid. Science was

33:37

in capital letters with quotes around

33:39

it. Do you have any thoughts

33:41

on that? Because I find it

33:43

to this day very puzzling. It

33:45

is interesting and I think it

33:47

kind of boils down to humans'

33:50

natural state is to believe in

33:52

weird things. And the natural inclination

33:54

is to believe in things that

33:56

are wrong. Someone wrote recently, you

33:58

know, asking why do people... believe

34:00

in weird things isn't really the

34:02

right question to ask. The real

34:04

question to ask is why do

34:06

people believe in science? What historically

34:08

has meant people actually believe

34:10

in science? Because science is

34:12

a difficult thing to believe

34:14

in because it's complicated. It's

34:16

actually a lot easier from

34:19

a human perspective to believe

34:21

in these simple explanations. And

34:23

simple explanations are often things

34:25

like conspiracy theories like somebody

34:27

did this or it's come

34:29

from... I don't know, like a

34:31

big plot or something like

34:34

that. So humans are kind

34:36

of naturally inclined to go

34:38

for these simple easy explanations

34:40

and historically we've had something

34:42

of people thinking sciences

34:45

is good and institutions are good

34:47

and this is because we've

34:49

actually had these monolithic outlets

34:52

of information in terms of

34:54

like the national media and

34:56

our education system. which in education

34:59

systems still there, but the national

35:01

media is really fragmented. Far less

35:03

people watching now. Far more people

35:06

are watching these other outlets like

35:08

Joe Rogan, and they do that

35:10

simply because they have choice. It's

35:12

not like the preferences have shifted.

35:14

It's like all of a sudden

35:16

we have all these things available,

35:18

and organically people are moving

35:20

to the things that are more in

35:23

tune with their natural human failings. which

35:25

is to believe in weird things. So

35:27

if you've got people believing in weird,

35:29

if you're people saying weird things, they're

35:32

going to start going to that. Joe

35:34

Rogan is way more entertaining

35:36

and he resonates more with what

35:38

might be the natural human state,

35:40

you know, believing in conspiracy theories

35:42

and witness. And I think the,

35:44

sorry Tark, but I think there's a

35:46

key thing there which is to to subscribe

35:49

to believe and be influenced by the kind

35:51

of things we're going to be talking

35:53

about here is fun. It's for

35:55

some people sexier than real

35:57

science. There's a mystery. to

36:00

it because it can't be proved that

36:02

I think people find seductive. But, and

36:04

this may be just an robbery on

36:07

my heart, so please feel free to

36:09

tell me if you disagree. Some of

36:11

the people that approach both Tarak and

36:14

I are so impassioned and defensive about

36:16

their beliefs, that it leads me to

36:18

believe, you know, there's this kind of

36:20

general pushback against higher education in the

36:23

US, has been for maybe 10 or

36:25

20 years, you know, scientists don't know

36:27

what they're doing, what a scam, this

36:30

kind of stuff. you know don't you

36:32

dare have a PhD in something and

36:34

I get the sense from some believers

36:37

not all I mean some some some

36:39

believers in this stuff are very well

36:41

educated and really we've had some on

36:43

the show who really have worked through

36:46

it in a logical rational way but

36:48

in a lot of cases my sense

36:50

of it is here's something that makes

36:53

me special Here's something that makes me

36:55

different. I don't have to go spend

36:57

six years to get some silly PhD.

37:00

I can go on a couple of

37:02

websites and dig up stuff that will

37:04

convince you. Do you think I'm going

37:07

down the wrong path here? Yeah, I

37:09

think that's kind of definitely an aspect

37:11

of it. There's been lots of research

37:13

into the psychological factors behind belief in

37:16

conspiracy theory. And they've done tests, this

37:18

kind of standard measures of personality. like

37:20

Gnosticistic and things like that. And one

37:23

of them is the need for uniqueness.

37:25

And some people have a stronger need

37:27

for uniqueness than other people. And those

37:30

type of people tend to be more

37:32

likely to believe in conspiracy theories. Because

37:34

everybody likes to feel unique, everyone likes

37:36

to feel special. But some people, it's

37:39

more of a factor. They don't really

37:41

care about fitting in. In fact, they

37:43

don't want to fit in. with what

37:46

they see as the mainstream. They want

37:48

to be different, they want to be

37:50

outliers, they want to be trailblazers, and

37:53

they want to be in some ways

37:55

like Messiahs, they want to be people

37:57

who are saving the nation from itself.

38:00

They have to feel like they're on

38:02

the side of good and God when

38:04

they're doing these things. So yeah, there's

38:06

definitely psychological factors behind it. But, you

38:09

know, that said, they're not huge factors.

38:11

It's not like this is why people

38:13

get into conspiracy theories. It makes it

38:16

more likely that they'll get into conspiracy

38:18

theories. But pretty much anyone can. It

38:20

just kind of depends on what information

38:23

you've been exposed to and to a

38:25

certain extent. your circumstances like whether you

38:27

have a lot of spare time whether

38:29

you're surrounded by like-minded people or you're

38:32

isolated or you're surrounded by people who

38:34

believe in conspiracy theories and you know

38:36

sometimes whether you're bit more vulnerable because

38:39

you've gone through some kind of life

38:41

events like you've lost your job or

38:43

you've got a divorce or you've gone

38:46

through an illness or during the the

38:48

coronavirus pandemic a lot of people were

38:50

forced to stay at home which was

38:53

quite mentally debilitating for some people and

38:55

you know these things can lead to

38:57

the things so it's not just you

38:59

know these are just people who want

39:02

to feel special that's just something that

39:04

kind of pushes them in that direction.

39:06

Well and I think trailblazers is a

39:09

good word because you know to be

39:11

fair. as I've kind of alluded to,

39:13

there are people that really do genuinely

39:16

feel that this is the pursuit of

39:18

something terribly important, and they're not looking

39:20

to be important. They're just looking to

39:23

help us, I guess, help us understand.

39:25

We're gonna go to another quick ad

39:27

break, Tarak, so hold on to your

39:29

pearls for a few minutes, and we'll

39:32

be right back. Go. I was gonna

39:34

say, can I ask my question, Rod,

39:36

or are you gonna start again? I

39:39

live in New Jersey these days, like

39:41

across the river, from New York, which

39:43

is where space.com is base. And obviously,

39:46

the big story here is that we

39:48

have crazy unexplained drones flying all around

39:50

and people are catching them on video.

39:52

Not anymore. Well, well, there were, there

39:55

were. No one's explained them. Over the

39:57

holidays, I had so many points. that

39:59

were clearly just airplanes, but that's beyond

40:02

the point. And of course, you know,

40:04

in your experience, there were a lot

40:06

of other, well, we used to call

40:09

the UFOs, but I guess now they're

40:11

called UAPs, these days where people

40:13

have rock solid video evidence about

40:15

them. And then I watched you

40:17

very expertly just take down one after

40:19

another, like on a live newscast. In

40:22

some of the videos we were doing

40:24

during research, that was pretty expert there.

40:26

And I guess the question there is,

40:28

is... you know how how that

40:30

that video technology

40:33

has really been you know

40:35

it either advancing or

40:37

or adding to this this

40:39

this trend you know

40:41

and in this where

40:43

that technology fits in like

40:45

the story of how these these these theories and

40:47

are being you know put out there we had

40:50

the the navy videos that were that made a

40:52

big splash a few years ago and I think

40:54

that's the discussion still going on now and I'm

40:56

wondering how you've seen that evolved over time because

40:59

we all have one you know in the in

41:01

the palm of our hand you know that we

41:03

can we can catch this and I would have

41:05

assumed that if the little green men were

41:08

here or whatnot we would have a little

41:10

green men were here or what not we would

41:12

have a Yeah, I think it's really

41:14

made a big change in uphology

41:16

since like, you know, 70s, 80s,

41:18

90s, the 2000s. You know, back

41:20

then, people were asking the same

41:23

question, why don't we have good

41:25

video of UFOs? You know, several

41:27

people have video cameras, would have

41:29

been the thing that they were

41:31

saying back then. And now, of

41:33

course, like, it's literally tens of

41:35

thousands of times more video cameras,

41:37

and the cameras are 100 times

41:39

better. You can just whip them.

41:42

instantly and you know they often have

41:44

multiple zooms and things like that so

41:46

it's really kind of changed things and

41:48

I think the the new Jersey drone

41:50

flap has been very illustrative of what's

41:53

actually going on here is we got

41:55

a lot of people yeah thousands

41:57

probably thousands of people at

41:59

least hundreds of people taking video of

42:01

what they thought were drones. And then

42:04

they're posting it online and they're saying,

42:06

look at this, look at this, look

42:08

at this, what I saw, you know,

42:10

I saw this fly over my head,

42:12

it was, it was definitely not a

42:14

plane, it was, you know, this, this

42:17

car size thing, it's about 200 feet

42:19

up. And then they'll show the video.

42:21

So we've got the, you know, the

42:23

whole package. Whereas, you know, back in

42:25

the day, we would just have mostly

42:28

eyewitness accounts and very, very few videos.

42:30

So now we're able to compare the

42:32

eyewitness accounts to the videos. And not

42:34

only do we have like the videos,

42:36

we usually have in a lot of

42:38

cases the location, and we have the

42:41

date and the time, and you know,

42:43

we've figured out what direction they're looking

42:45

in. So we can go back and

42:47

we can look at the actual flight

42:49

data around that particular time, and pretty

42:52

much every single case that we looked

42:54

at. It turned out to be a

42:56

plane. So we've got people actually convinced

42:58

that they saw something that wasn't a

43:00

plane and they were convinced it was

43:02

200 feet up and then they take

43:05

video of it and they're still convinced

43:07

even after they've seen the video that

43:09

they themselves took and then you show

43:11

them that it was actually a plane

43:13

and some of them will reject that

43:16

but a lot of them were like

43:18

oh yeah. But you know back in

43:20

the day before we had all this

43:22

all we had with these eyewitness accounts.

43:24

So we just had people who were

43:26

convinced they saw a giant triangular craft-sized

43:29

thing with lights flying over their heads

43:31

200 feet up. We've got no way

43:33

of knowing what it actually was, but

43:35

based on what we've been seeing, it

43:37

probably was something like a plane. Misidentifications

43:40

are huge now. They were huge back

43:42

then. That's what they wanted to think,

43:44

right, Rod? That's what we want you

43:46

to do. This brings up a point.

43:48

So I worked at Griffith Observatory for

43:50

about 10 years back in my college

43:53

days. So in the late 70s, early

43:55

80s, you know, the area you're talking

43:57

about when the best you had was

43:59

probably. you know, 400 ASA Black and

44:01

White Tri-X film to shoot these things.

44:03

And we would get calls pretty much

44:06

every day for people. I see an

44:08

EUFO kind of calls. And it became

44:10

pretty clear, a couple things became pretty

44:13

clear to me anyway, and became kind

44:15

of the party line, which is, it's

44:17

really hard for people to identify

44:20

things in the sky. because we're

44:22

really used to identifying things on the

44:24

ground. How far is that stop sign?

44:26

How far is that building, because I'm

44:28

judging by the parallax with the building

44:30

behind it, as I'm driving by it,

44:32

is to tell how far away it

44:34

is, how much haze, you may not

44:36

be objectifying it, but how much haze

44:38

is there between me and the thing I'm

44:41

looking at. And with some things in

44:43

the sky, you lose all those kind

44:45

of points of comparison, and people really

44:47

have no sense of size speed, anything

44:49

else. I asked you before we came

44:51

on about the Go Fast video, which

44:53

is where I first saw your work.

44:56

You know, these are military pilots,

44:58

but if you're looking, for instance,

45:00

something between your high-speed moving

45:02

jet and the sea below

45:04

you that may be moving

45:06

in a different direction, even

45:08

with Flur radar, it's really hard

45:10

to tell what's going on, isn't

45:12

it? Isn't that part of the

45:15

problem? Yeah, I mean the problem is

45:17

our human brains have not evolved to

45:19

look at things that are high in

45:21

the sky. You know, we look at

45:23

things on the ground, we look at

45:25

maybe birds, but things that are five

45:27

miles up in the sky, we just

45:29

have no idea. Things that are five

45:32

miles below us, yeah, that the brain

45:34

just does not compute. Yeah, the

45:36

brain just does not compute. We

45:38

don't have the kind of the

45:40

mental framework to actually look at

45:43

that. That's many miles away. The

45:45

motion you see isn't actually the

45:47

motion of the object. It's actually

45:49

the motion of the camera. We're

45:52

actually being filmed from an FAA

45:54

18 jet and it's zoomed in

45:56

about the optical equivalent of a

45:59

2,000 millimeter lens. camera, which would

46:01

be like a huge, huge lens. Most

46:03

big zooms you see top out of

46:05

600. So it's about half a degree

46:07

field of view right there. So this

46:09

isn't something the human brain can actually

46:12

comprehend and figure out the relative motion

46:14

and things like that. And even if

46:16

you're a fighter pilot, you're not trained

46:18

to. visualize that particular thing in three

46:20

dimensions. You're trained to like intercept things,

46:23

you're trained to identify threats, you're trained

46:25

to hit targets, you're not trained to

46:27

spot UFOs, you're not trained to like

46:29

analyze UFOs. So it's very easy to

46:31

fall for these these kind of illusions.

46:33

Another big one is, I wonder I

46:36

saw a lot in the chemtrail days,

46:38

which is if a plane is flying

46:40

towards you, it looks like it's flying

46:42

straight up. And this is something that

46:44

just, you know, it's quite hard to

46:47

actually convince people of this, this thing,

46:49

because you will see these contrails in

46:51

the sky that are either going straight

46:53

up or they're going straight down. And

46:55

yeah, everybody just, lots of people, just

46:58

assume that's, you know, it's something like

47:00

a rocket launch or it's a plane

47:02

that's descending or it's a plane that's

47:04

a plane that's climbing. But these are

47:06

all just planes in level flight, plane

47:08

flying at 40,000 feet, flying away from

47:11

you, flying away from you, just looks

47:13

like it's just dropping straight down. if

47:15

it's flying toward you it looks like

47:17

it's going straight up or if it's

47:19

to the side of you it looks

47:22

like it's going at a bit of

47:24

an angle and you know until you

47:26

actually kind of take a step back

47:28

and look at it from three dimensions

47:30

it's very difficult to understand what's going

47:33

on and then you get the same

47:35

thing with UFOs you'll see a plane

47:37

in the distance I had this case

47:39

just today someone sent me a video

47:41

it was a light you know in

47:43

the distance next to Venus and it

47:46

was slowly rising something hovering over the

47:48

distant hills, but he was actually a

47:50

plane about 30 miles away coming straight

47:52

towards them and it just looked like

47:54

he was rising because he was getting

47:57

closer to them. See, there's an explanation

47:59

for everything, Rod. You know, that's why

48:01

he's here. Yeah, well, you know, I...

48:03

I did want to ask you, those

48:05

Navy videos, you know, earlier, kind of

48:08

set off, I don't know if it's

48:10

like a renewal or what do you

48:12

call that, Rod? It was a renaissance.

48:14

That's the word. That's the word. So

48:16

much so that, you know, we cover

48:19

NASA and NASA put their own committee

48:21

together and, you know, had a lot

48:23

of public meetings and everyone was really

48:25

following it. And I'm just curious if

48:27

that pattern that you observed there. has

48:29

just, you know, mirrors what we've seen

48:32

from the UFO reports and investigations of

48:34

the past, or is it because of

48:36

the technology involved like a new era

48:38

or a new age of both a

48:40

lot of these claims and the debunking?

48:43

Because you said earlier that, you know,

48:45

that there's that pattern of everyone reporting

48:47

it still, but now they have all

48:49

the video. And I would hope that

48:51

a military video would have all the

48:54

information that we need to know what's

48:56

what. But I'm just curious about this,

48:58

these cases in particular, if this is,

49:00

if there is something truly different about

49:02

the technology pace now. Yeah, well, the

49:04

videos that we see are actually, the

49:07

technology is not that new. The the

49:09

Fleir 1 video from the Nimitz incident,

49:11

you know, that's back from like 2004

49:13

or so. So it's a long time

49:15

ago, nearly 20 years ago, well it

49:18

is 20 years ago now. And you

49:20

know that's, but the thing is we

49:22

as a public have not seen these

49:24

types of videos before. So these are

49:26

the things that might have existed like

49:29

in the military is like not not

49:31

showing them to you because they are

49:33

in. these military training is classified and

49:35

stuff like that. And we just got

49:37

these two ones, there's three ones that

49:39

were leaked out. Now the Gimble video,

49:42

which looks like this flying saucer, that's

49:44

just rotating, there's the Go Fast video

49:46

where it looks like it's going very

49:48

fast over the water. And then this

49:50

Fleur 1 video, which comes from the

49:53

Nimitz incident, which just looks like a

49:55

little fuzzy bob doing nothing in the

49:57

background. And these are all things that

49:59

are... very difficult to understand

50:01

from a human perspective, like I was

50:03

saying. So you show these things, like

50:06

the Gimble video, for example, it looks

50:08

like an actual flying source, it looks

50:10

like it's flying along, and then it

50:12

kind of like rotates on its ends,

50:14

and you know, that would be something

50:17

that's aerodynamically impossible. But there are actually

50:19

explanations for these things. You know, the

50:21

rotation of this flying source of the

50:23

Gimble actually comes from... The gimbal system

50:25

of the camera, this is the simulation

50:28

that I did where I took all

50:30

the parameters that we can get from

50:32

the video because there's lots of numbers

50:34

on screen and created a 3D recreation

50:36

and it turns out that the rotation

50:38

of the object matches exactly what the

50:40

rotation of the camera needs to be

50:43

to move from one position to another.

50:45

So it seems like what we're looking

50:47

at isn't actually a real object as

50:49

such. It's an object behind it. But

50:51

it's something like the heat source. The

50:53

heat source is the engine and we're

50:56

seeing these thermal videos, which is

50:58

another aspect. We're looking at thermal

51:00

videos. We're not looking at visible

51:03

lights. So we're looking at something that

51:05

looks like a flying source, but that's

51:07

just the shape of the heat signature.

51:09

It's not actually the shape of the

51:12

object itself. It could be just the,

51:14

you were looking at the tailpipe of

51:16

a jet, and because that's so hot,

51:19

it just kind of flies up in the

51:21

camera. you get this kind of optical bloom

51:23

where things spread out a bit and we

51:25

call it glare within the camera. It's the

51:28

same thing as like when you, this is

51:30

a little demo I do all the time,

51:32

I just point my flashlight at the camera

51:34

and you can see you can't see the

51:36

flashlight. But aliens, oh! Blair is a lot

51:39

bigger than the flashlight. And it happens when

51:41

you're pointing the flashlight at the camera. So

51:43

there are potential explanations for these things. But

51:45

we also have the testimony of the pilots

51:48

and they are convinced that they saw

51:50

something amazing. but then you have to think

51:52

you know we've got all these other things like

51:54

I just said the New Jersey thing thousands of

51:56

people thought they saw something amazing every single time

51:58

we can actually handle the video turns

52:00

out not to be amazing. That also

52:03

turns out to be the case with

52:05

a lot of these military sightings as

52:07

well. See Tarak I'm not as smart

52:09

as Mick but I could do the

52:12

same thing. Sorry we're gonna be a

52:14

little silly here. We have one more

52:16

break and we'll be right back so

52:19

go nowhere. At Ritual we know what

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and Drug Administration. This product is not

52:46

intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent

52:48

any disease. Mick, I want to talk

52:51

a little bit about, I mean, as

52:53

usual, we've gotten through less than half

52:55

the questions I have, but we'll just

52:58

have to have you back if you

53:00

back if you're willing. But I want

53:02

to talk a little bit about the

53:04

UFO industry and people, if you don't

53:07

mind, talk about specifics, like Lewis Elizondo.

53:09

So I do two space conferences a

53:11

year that I helped put on that

53:14

are so-called legitimate space conferences. You know,

53:16

it's for scientists and NASA people and

53:18

they motivated public and all that. We

53:20

get, you know, 800, 1100 people. I

53:23

went to AlienCon a couple years ago

53:25

on invitation to speak. And actually, you

53:27

know, had a really good audience of

53:30

smart motivated people with smart questions. So

53:32

it wasn't all, you know, rubber antenna

53:34

and wackos or anything. It was actually

53:37

a good crowd. But there were like

53:39

10 or 12,000 people there. And when

53:41

they when they wheeled what was left

53:43

to very quadonica up on the stage

53:46

to speak, the auditorium, I think had

53:48

a maximum capacity of 2800. It was

53:50

estimated there were 3, 300, 300, I

53:53

mean, hanging from the balcony and that

53:55

kind of thing. So obviously, there's a

53:57

public appreciation for this, but there's also

53:59

a very... lucrative business in it,

54:02

then you see somebody like Elizondo

54:04

who seems to come

54:06

from these unimpeachable background

54:08

credentials. Is there a

54:10

story there that you can talk

54:12

about? Because it left me scratching

54:15

my head. Yeah, well I went

54:17

to Eileen Khan last year down

54:19

in Pasadena. Oh, very interesting. Yeah,

54:21

yeah, yeah. So I might have

54:23

crossed paths briefly. Yeah. Yeah, and

54:25

it was very interesting. You see

54:27

they have. in counter events where

54:29

you can pay an extra 20

54:31

bucks to get your photo taken

54:33

with Travis Taylor or someone like

54:35

that, someone from these shows. And

54:37

what they really are, this convention

54:40

is, they're basically extensions of

54:42

the TV show. You know, ancient aliens,

54:44

there's The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. And,

54:46

you know, there's a show that I'm

54:49

actually on, which is called The Proof

54:51

is Out There, where they do a

54:53

little bit more investigation of things, and

54:55

I'm like, one of the Voices of

54:58

reason of reason on that show. What

55:00

that convention largely was was the fans

55:02

of those shows. And they also have

55:05

like a traveling road show now like

55:07

ancient aliens and skim walk around like

55:09

yeah, you go around the country to

55:11

different places and people like

55:13

see pay lots of money to see

55:16

them. And so it is quite lucrative.

55:18

They are actually making money. Lou Elizondo,

55:20

you know, he came out in 2017

55:22

as part of Tom de Long's. to

55:25

the Stars enterprise, which is kind of

55:27

an interesting thing. Tom the Long, he

55:29

was seen as the front man of

55:32

Link 182, or Rockbound, and he started

55:34

this business to basically leverage

55:36

UFO disclosure to do entertainment and

55:38

science. The science dropped away very

55:40

quickly and it became more about

55:42

entertainment and now that's kind of

55:44

dropped away as well. And I

55:46

think all the people invested in

55:49

it. So basically throwing away their

55:51

money and most of the people

55:53

who were part of it. I've

55:55

left it and it doesn't really

55:57

exist anymore. But Alexander has kept

55:59

going. He's... written a book recently

56:01

called Imminent, which I thought was

56:03

actually a joke when they said

56:05

that was the title because UFO

56:07

disclosure has been imminent since the

56:09

1940s. It's bit a running joke

56:12

that it's always just around the

56:14

corner. And then he probably just

56:16

a book saying, yeah, it's just

56:18

about to happen. It's imminent. But

56:20

I think he's angling for a

56:22

position in government. He wants to

56:24

be the UFO czar or the

56:26

UAP czar. And he was recently

56:29

on Donald Trump Jr.'s

56:31

podcast, making the case basically that

56:33

he should do that. I know his

56:35

friends with Tulsi Gabbard and various

56:37

other people who are now obviously in

56:39

government. So it seems like, you

56:41

know, he might actually be the person

56:43

running UFO investigations in the future,

56:46

which I don't think is a pretty

56:48

good thing. If you read his

56:50

book, he doesn't seem to be very

56:52

interested in investigating. He actually had

56:54

aliens in his house, he said. He

56:58

had glowing orbs, which he thought were

57:00

perhaps some kind of alien scout ship

57:02

or drone, alien drone or something like

57:04

that, floating down his hallway and going

57:06

through walls. And this happened for weeks

57:09

and weeks and weeks. And he never

57:11

really investigated it. He just was like,

57:13

yeah, maybe it's just the weather or

57:15

something like that. And apparently his neighbors

57:17

saw them when they were barbecues and

57:19

they were just laughing about them. Oh,

57:21

there are those orbs again. And

57:24

he has other things like he

57:27

said, he can remote view. He says

57:29

that he, he once kind of

57:31

remotely interrogated a terrorist who was on

57:33

the other side of the world

57:35

and appeared as an angel over his

57:37

bed and shook the bed psychically

57:39

with a bunch of his psychic friends.

57:41

And he got trained as a

57:43

psychic soldier essentially. So he's not really

57:46

the person I would pick to

57:48

be running this thing, but he talks

57:50

a good talk. But I don't

57:52

think he's actually very good at investigating.

57:54

I grew up in a household

57:56

very much like that with a lot

57:58

of these beliefs and, you know,

58:00

seance. and stuff and it was just yeah I guess that's

58:03

what turned me into a non-believer

58:05

was the the kind of passion

58:07

belief despite anything well I think

58:09

you know that's what's being revealed

58:12

now is that a lot of uphology

58:14

is based upon this belief in

58:16

the supernatural we've got all these

58:18

people coming out and they've all

58:20

had these you know basically weird

58:22

supernatural experiences elizondo you know there's

58:24

all kinds of you know things

58:26

going on the like David Grush,

58:28

you know, one of the, there's

58:30

whistle blow. I want to ask

58:32

about him too. And you guy

58:34

coming in. Because his testimony, so

58:36

much of his testimony was, well,

58:38

sir, where did you hear that?

58:40

Well, a friend of a friend of

58:43

mine said, and that's not particularly

58:45

compelling. Yeah, and this is the other thing

58:47

about the the UFO culture like I think

58:49

you know where it seems like there's a

58:51

lot going on right now It seems like

58:53

we've got whistleblower's we've got congressional hearings with

58:55

all this stuff But I think what's actually

58:57

happening is like the spotlight is coming on

58:59

to these ants and you know It's almost

59:01

like a magnifying glass and they're just out

59:03

scurrying around and all this stuff is being

59:05

revealed like it's like you pull the rock

59:07

back and you get to see all the

59:09

the the ants doing their business doing their

59:11

business doing their business It's just

59:14

people talking to each other. There's no

59:16

actual evidence. There's people saying, I believe

59:18

in aliens because this person told me

59:20

that he knows someone who worked on

59:22

this program, or I know someone who

59:24

worked on this program, but I can't tell you

59:26

what it is. I know whether the UFOs are,

59:29

I can't tell you what it is. No one

59:31

will actually give you any actual

59:33

evidence, but they're all convinced that it's

59:35

true, because they're all been talking to

59:37

people who are convinced it's true. of

59:39

good credentials like, you know, Arizona, most

59:41

reasonable credentials. You've worked in government. There's

59:44

Tim Gallaudet, who's, you know, he was

59:46

the head of Noah, he was in

59:48

admiral in the Navy, and, you know,

59:50

another person who believes in the supernatural,

59:52

but, you know, he's got good credentials.

59:54

You've got Chris Mellon, the former, like,

59:57

you know, of a assistant under secretary

59:59

for defense. or something, I can't remember

1:00:01

exactly, but he's got great credentials and

1:00:03

he's very interested in UFOs, but none

1:00:06

of them actually have any real evidence.

1:00:08

But do you see, because as we're

1:00:10

recording this discussion today, which is fantastic

1:00:12

by the way, thank you so much

1:00:15

again for coming on the show. We're

1:00:17

just a couple of weeks into a

1:00:19

new administration. In fact, Trump on the

1:00:22

campaign trail said that if elected, he

1:00:24

would, you know, declassify the UFO, the

1:00:26

Area 51 stuff there. Of course, we

1:00:29

haven't heard about that yet. But in

1:00:31

the space.com newsroom, we had a whole

1:00:33

big discussion about when are we going

1:00:35

to run that story about what could

1:00:38

he do, you know, on this whole

1:00:40

thing. And I think we ended up

1:00:42

running it like over the holidays. But

1:00:45

do you see a a... imminent announcement

1:00:47

that that would come because of of

1:00:49

of at least the claims on that

1:00:51

campaign trail now in the administration and

1:00:54

and if so like what should people

1:00:56

who follow me what are you following

1:00:58

what are you looking for to see

1:01:01

if there's actually any merit or anything

1:01:03

to even reveal I hope so I

1:01:05

mean I really do hope that Trump

1:01:08

will declassify the UFO files that would

1:01:10

be great I think that you know

1:01:12

if there I think what we're going

1:01:14

to find is that there have historically

1:01:17

been people in government who believed in

1:01:19

UFOs. And that there probably are things

1:01:21

like special access programs where those people

1:01:24

have gone and looked for UFOs. And

1:01:26

we know that certain things like this

1:01:28

have happened in the past. There was

1:01:31

a government program called Project Stargate where

1:01:33

the government tried to do remote viewing.

1:01:35

And this is, you know, there's the

1:01:37

movie in the book Men's Steric Goes.

1:01:40

This is stuff that actually happened. This

1:01:42

is real. You know, people within government

1:01:44

tried to do this. These, there was

1:01:47

this AllSAP program back here, started back

1:01:49

in the nineties, and this was basically

1:01:51

Robert Bigelow, or Las Vegas. real estate

1:01:53

developer and his friend Harry Reid, he

1:01:56

convinced Harry Reid to get some legislation

1:01:58

passed so they could investigate this place

1:02:00

called Skin Walker Ranch. And Skin Walker

1:02:03

Ranch is just a supposedly supernatural ranch

1:02:05

in Utah, which is now the subject

1:02:07

of a TV show and it's part

1:02:10

of this, you know, this alien car.

1:02:12

We should point out that Robert Bigelow

1:02:14

also. I just want to point out

1:02:16

that Robert Bigelow also built a room

1:02:19

that is currently on the International Space

1:02:21

Station right now with Bigelow Aerospace. Well,

1:02:23

and flew to inflatable space stations before

1:02:26

that, which I always found, talk about

1:02:28

cognitive dissonance. Here's this UFO guy who's

1:02:30

actually building space hardware based on old

1:02:32

NASA designs that is still inspiring new

1:02:35

space station design, so it was... Again,

1:02:37

that's one of those moments we think,

1:02:39

well, maybe there's more to this than

1:02:42

I think is a doubter because he's

1:02:44

obviously a smart guy who's engaged in

1:02:46

the business. But then there's a lot

1:02:49

more. Houston was an alchemist. Just because

1:02:51

someone's a great scientist doesn't mean they

1:02:53

can't also believe in magic. Yeah. So

1:02:55

we kind of touched on this, but

1:02:58

what do you think this shift towards?

1:03:00

a distrust of science, a distrust of

1:03:02

big science, a distrust of academia. Actually,

1:03:05

I think it disdained for academia. I

1:03:07

don't have to go very far east

1:03:09

from Los Angeles for people, you know,

1:03:11

if I wear a Stanford t-shirt or

1:03:14

something, they'll say, oh, you will, and

1:03:16

then college boys, and it's like, I'm

1:03:18

not even in Arizona yet, what's going

1:03:21

on? Yeah, well, that's what was being

1:03:23

a thing, anti-intellectualism has been a thing,

1:03:25

but I think, but I think, recently

1:03:28

the former head of a formative arrow,

1:03:30

Shonco-head of, Shonco-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a what we're seeing is

1:03:32

actually a return to a belief in

1:03:34

magic. And I think that is somewhat

1:03:37

true. I think that as people are

1:03:39

becoming untethered from institutions and institutional knowledge

1:03:41

and more going towards individual knowledge. on

1:03:44

the internet, they tend towards the natural

1:03:46

human inclination to believe in magic. And

1:03:48

so we're getting people in positions of

1:03:51

authority and positions perhaps even within science

1:03:53

itself who are employing magical thinking. And

1:03:55

it's a little concerning, perhaps even a

1:03:57

lot concerning. And it's something we certainly

1:04:00

need to keep an eye on. So,

1:04:02

because this is a largely space flight

1:04:04

and space technology show, I can't let

1:04:07

you go without talking about the Apollo

1:04:09

deniers. And there was a couple years

1:04:11

ago, there's a study, I don't remember

1:04:13

if it was the Inmar Saturday, the

1:04:16

IPSO survey, but a fair amount of,

1:04:18

between depending on who you ask, how

1:04:20

you ask the question, when you ask,

1:04:23

10 to roughly 30% of Americans think

1:04:25

the moon landings were faked. Yeah, he

1:04:27

gets a little bad about that. 72%

1:04:30

of Russians think we faked it, which

1:04:32

kind of makes sense, because they're still

1:04:34

a little hurt about not being the

1:04:36

Soviet Union anymore, maybe. But oddly, 54%

1:04:39

of people in the UK don't think

1:04:41

that happened, at least. That's more than

1:04:43

half. What? Yeah, so. you know and

1:04:46

we've all seen the the videos of

1:04:48

look that flag moved yeah it's called

1:04:50

static electricity you know uh... but at

1:04:52

this point so i used to get

1:04:55

this question a lot especially on coast

1:04:57

to coast well what do you say

1:04:59

about the this and that it's like

1:05:02

i used to go in this long

1:05:04

song of dance about look go to

1:05:06

the museums look at the rockets go

1:05:09

to the national archives to go through

1:05:11

the millions of documents and feed a

1:05:13

film and so forth talk to the

1:05:15

moon walkers like i have you know

1:05:18

see if you think they're Now, since

1:05:20

the fall of the Soviet Union in

1:05:22

the 21st century, I can say, look,

1:05:25

we have the records of the Soviet

1:05:27

Union tracking the Apollo flights around the

1:05:29

moon with Doppler radar and all that,

1:05:31

and people like Japan and China and

1:05:34

India have orbited the moon and taken

1:05:36

images of the surface. If anybody's going

1:05:38

to call us out on lying about

1:05:41

that, it would be the Russians of

1:05:43

the Chinese. So what part of that

1:05:45

don't you get? What are your thoughts?

1:05:48

It's a difficult one. And yet, to

1:05:50

some degree, I give up on people

1:05:52

that are so entrenched in beliefs like

1:05:54

that. I used to talk to flat

1:05:57

Earthers, which is extreme. Until they killed

1:05:59

themselves in rockets, right? I believe. Yeah,

1:06:01

the space race. put a dent in

1:06:04

flat earth as because we actually got

1:06:06

photos from space, but then of course

1:06:08

people went to space being fake, which

1:06:11

probably had some influence on people thinking

1:06:13

that the moon linings were fake because

1:06:15

that would spoil the whole flat earth

1:06:17

thing. But there's only so much you

1:06:20

can do with some people. A lot

1:06:22

of people are going to be amenable

1:06:24

to reason. You can show them things.

1:06:27

You can show them like these photographs

1:06:29

of the landing site from space, but

1:06:31

other people are just going to say

1:06:33

that's fake. you can show them like

1:06:36

these records from the Russians, you can

1:06:38

do these explanations of why is the

1:06:40

flag standing up and things like that

1:06:43

and why are shadows at a different

1:06:45

angle, but they're not really that interested

1:06:47

in it. They've got their belief and

1:06:50

they're just going with it. So you've

1:06:52

got to try to figure out, is

1:06:54

the person you're talking to amenable to

1:06:56

reason or not? And if they're not,

1:06:59

yeah, you might be better off. debunking

1:07:01

some other belief of theirs because these

1:07:03

moonlining ones aren't going to be that

1:07:06

consequential. I would feel like such a

1:07:08

chump if I found out that like

1:07:10

the last 20 years of my life

1:07:12

have been dedicated to covering a space

1:07:15

program where I have rearranged everything at

1:07:17

great expense to go and watch these

1:07:19

missions launch and then I find out

1:07:22

that it was also the dog and

1:07:24

pony show. So that's a class action

1:07:26

lawsuit against the government coming up. So,

1:07:29

yeah, I got the same kind of

1:07:31

reaction from geoengineering researchers. This is an

1:07:33

actual topic, geoengineering. And these people, they're

1:07:35

basically trying to figure out how could

1:07:38

we manipulate the Earth's climate in the

1:07:40

future if we need to. And so

1:07:42

they've done all this research into it.

1:07:45

It's mostly mathematical modeling. computer models. But

1:07:47

then they got these people saying that

1:07:49

chem trails are a real thing and

1:07:51

chem trails are what's doing this. And

1:07:54

you know, they say like, why would

1:07:56

I do that? You can come talk

1:07:58

to me. And then they go out

1:08:01

and they talk to these chemtial groups.

1:08:03

There's a guy, David Keith, he went

1:08:05

out and he's one of the most

1:08:08

famous geoengineering researchers out there and he

1:08:10

went out and talked to them and

1:08:12

explained to them like what he does

1:08:14

and things like that. Getting a connection

1:08:17

with the people themselves is often the

1:08:19

most compelling thing for other people, like

1:08:21

talking to the actual scientists. But yeah,

1:08:24

you've really got to try to tune

1:08:26

your communication. priorities to the individual and

1:08:28

what they're going to receive and what's

1:08:31

going to what's going to actually stick.

1:08:33

So you know I know we've been

1:08:35

talking for a good hour now I

1:08:37

did I did I do feel like

1:08:40

I can't let you go if I

1:08:42

if without asking I guess one kind

1:08:44

of fun one I'm curious if there

1:08:47

is one conspiracy theory out there UFO

1:08:49

or otherwise that You would love to

1:08:51

be true, even if you know it's

1:08:53

not, right? But you would just internally

1:08:56

really love to be true and what

1:08:58

that might be. I mean, I... I

1:09:00

mean I guess if I just could

1:09:03

pick one I'd go with like let's

1:09:05

say the free energy conspiracy theory is

1:09:07

true and the government's been covering up

1:09:10

free energy because that would be great

1:09:12

if we could all just get zero

1:09:14

point energy and we could just pluck

1:09:16

energy out of the back vacuum fluctuations

1:09:19

or whatever it is or out of

1:09:21

magnets that would be really good and

1:09:23

you know that's kind of like the

1:09:26

UFO thing in a way because a

1:09:28

lot of the UFO believers think that

1:09:30

the government is denying as a golden

1:09:32

age of science. with lots of free

1:09:35

energy and faster than light travel and

1:09:37

easy, easy transatlantic flights on these flying

1:09:39

sources. So yeah, hidden technology, if that

1:09:42

would be true, and we could actually

1:09:44

demonstrate that it's true and get that

1:09:46

hidden technology revealed, that would be great.

1:09:49

Unfortunately, it doesn't really look like it's

1:09:51

true. Yeah. And you have one? Yeah,

1:09:53

I had my goals set so low.

1:09:55

I just wanted to be abducted. didn't

1:09:58

probe for probably years. Always, we got

1:10:00

through almost the whole episode. Almost, but

1:10:02

not quite. Okay, before we go though,

1:10:05

I want. Can I, can I say

1:10:07

mine? I can't say mine? No. I

1:10:09

thought that was it. Okay, heard. No, my

1:10:11

theory. I just, I would like all over

1:10:13

earth to be true, right? That'd be

1:10:16

great that they'd be like a whole

1:10:18

other world. underneath the planet and dinosaurs

1:10:20

and Godzilla. Maybe Michael Jackson because you

1:10:22

know my theory on that. And Elvis.

1:10:24

I thought earlier about you today in

1:10:27

this context and this this fits with

1:10:29

my my construct that this is my

1:10:31

conspiracy theory. You're actually a hobbit. And

1:10:33

you have very large feet that you've been

1:10:35

hiding from me and you want to go

1:10:38

down the middle earth. Mick, before we go,

1:10:40

I'd like you to talk a little bit

1:10:42

about your book, why people will enjoy it.

1:10:44

I've bought a copy. They should too. Sure,

1:10:47

my book is Escaping the Rabbit

1:10:49

Hole, how to debunk conspiracy theories

1:10:51

using facts, logic and respect. And

1:10:53

it's basically how to talk to

1:10:55

people who believe in various conspiracy

1:10:57

theories. And I cover a lot

1:11:00

of them specifically, like Kemtrails, 9-11,

1:11:02

you know, false flags where people

1:11:04

think that like school shootings and

1:11:06

things like that are fake. And

1:11:08

the newest edition of the book

1:11:10

has chapters on coronavirus, election fraud,

1:11:13

and UFOs, and Qunon. So, you

1:11:15

know, if you have somebody in

1:11:17

your life who believes in these conspiracy

1:11:19

theories and it's causing a problem, or

1:11:21

if you yourself believe in them and

1:11:24

you want to kind of investigate

1:11:26

them a little bit more from

1:11:28

another perspective, it's kind of tries to

1:11:30

teach you how to talk about

1:11:32

those particular topics and how do

1:11:34

you actually communicate with people and

1:11:36

how do you understand people and how

1:11:38

do you get them to understand you

1:11:40

and how do you actually have a

1:11:42

conversation about conspiracy theories. Great update.

1:11:45

And I think it's great that

1:11:47

you have the word respect in

1:11:49

there because so rarely is compassion

1:11:51

or empathy showed on either side

1:11:53

of the argument, honestly. And it's

1:11:55

nice to see somebody advocated for

1:11:57

that. Yeah, I think it's very important

1:11:59

to. treat people with respect. I know,

1:12:01

like, you know, we kind of make fun

1:12:04

of these strange beliefs, but these are real

1:12:06

people and they believe in them for reasons.

1:12:08

You know, the reasons are wrong, but that

1:12:10

doesn't mean that they're idiots. You know,

1:12:12

some people are idiots, but some

1:12:14

people are idiots who don't believe

1:12:17

in these theories. You know, it's

1:12:19

like conspiracy theorists, I just... a

1:12:21

cross-section of society. They're not worse

1:12:23

than us, they're not better than

1:12:25

us, they're just people who happen

1:12:27

to have fallen for a conspiracy

1:12:29

theory and you got to respect

1:12:31

them as people and talk to them

1:12:34

as people and you can help them.

1:12:36

Very well said. Well I want to

1:12:38

thank you and everybody for joining us

1:12:40

today for episode 147. I like to call,

1:12:42

not as they seem. with the resonating

1:12:44

voice of reason Mick West. Mick besides

1:12:46

your YouTube and your website that we

1:12:48

already mentioned, Mickwest.com, are there other places

1:12:51

people should go to keep up with

1:12:53

your work? Yeah, I do a lot

1:12:55

of stuff on Metabunk.org which is my

1:12:57

web forum and unfortunately I'm still on

1:13:00

Twitter now X and I'm there because

1:13:02

other people are there. I'm not endorsing

1:13:04

it but I'm there if you want

1:13:06

to see what I'm doing. All right

1:13:08

and Tarak where can we find

1:13:10

you being abducted these days? Well

1:13:12

you can find me at space.com

1:13:15

as always Also also on X

1:13:17

at Tarak Jay Malik and on

1:13:19

YouTube at Space Tron plays I've

1:13:21

been diving pretty deep and getting

1:13:23

lost in space in the lure

1:13:25

of Marvel rivals and space exploration

1:13:27

So if anyone wants to help

1:13:29

me get to Grand Master there,

1:13:31

let me know hit me up Well, I

1:13:33

think Nick could probably tell you how

1:13:35

to go through the backdoor code and

1:13:37

just But of course you'd never do

1:13:40

that because you're an honorable man. Of

1:13:42

course, you can find me at pilebooks.com

1:13:44

or at Astor Magazine.com and or at

1:13:46

NSS.org, which is the home of the

1:13:49

National Space Society. Remember also, you can

1:13:51

always drop us the line at TW.

1:13:53

TV. That's TWIS at TW.TV. We love

1:13:55

getting your comments, especially for this

1:13:58

episode because I think we're We're

1:14:00

going to get a few, and I

1:14:02

look forward to hearing from you and

1:14:04

responding to each and every one of

1:14:07

them. New episodes of the podcast publish

1:14:09

every Friday on your favorite podcatcher, so

1:14:11

make sure to subscribe. Tell your friends,

1:14:13

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1:14:23

Club Twit in 2025. Besides supporting Twit,

1:14:25

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1:14:27

And today... Thank you, Mick is an

1:14:29

excellent example of our show at its

1:14:32

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1:14:34

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1:14:36

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1:14:45

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1:14:50

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Twitter Tech Podcast Network at Twitter and

1:14:57

on Facebook and Twitter and Twitter TV

1:14:59

on Instagram. Gentlemen, this has been an

1:15:01

absolute pleasure. Mick, I really appreciate you

1:15:03

coming on. As I think I mentioned

1:15:06

to you, I've been angling to get

1:15:08

you on for, I don't know, three

1:15:10

years and finally managed to track you

1:15:13

down and I really appreciate you taking

1:15:15

the time. I'm very glad to be

1:15:17

here. So fascinating conversation. Thanks everybody and

1:15:19

we'll see you next time. Bye bye.

1:15:22

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Twitter TV on Instagram. Gentlemen. This

1:18:49

has been an absolute pleasure. Mick, I

1:18:51

really appreciate you coming on. It's, as

1:18:53

I think I mentioned to you, I've

1:18:55

been angling to get you on for,

1:18:57

I don't know, three years and finally

1:18:59

managed to track you down and I

1:19:01

really appreciate you taking the time. I'm

1:19:04

very glad to be here. So fascinating

1:19:06

conversation. Thanks everybody and we'll see you

1:19:08

next time. Bye bye. No matter how

1:19:11

much spare time you have, Twitter TV

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has the perfect tech news format for

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your week with this week in tech

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for an in-depth, comprehensive dive into the

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midweek boost, Tech News Weekly brings

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you concise quick updates with the

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journalists breaking the news. Whether you

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need just the nuts and bolts

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or want the full analysis, stay

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informed with Twitter TV's perfect pairing

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of tech news programs. Hi,

1:19:53

I'm Chris Gatherden, I'm very excited to tell you

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about beautiful and honest. A podcast where I talk

1:19:58

to random people on the phone. I tweet out

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a phone number, thousands of people try to call,

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and talk to one of them, they stay anonymous,

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I can't hang up, that's all the rules. I

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never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones,

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I've talked with meth dealers on their way to

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prison, I've talked to people who survived mass shootings,

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crazy funny ones, I talked to a guy with

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a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a

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pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna

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happen, it's a great show, subscribe today, beautiful, beautiful

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anonymous.