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fan at .com slash slash gifts. This

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is this

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week in

1:49

space episode

1:51

number 140

1:54

This is This

1:57

Week in Space,

1:59

episode number 140,

2:01

recorded on December

2:03

13th. 2020 for the University Rockatiers.

2:05

Hello and welcome to another episode

2:08

of This Week in Space, the

2:10

University Rockatiers edition. I'm Rod Pyle,

2:12

editor-in-chief, Vad Astor magazine, and I'm

2:14

joined, as always, by Tarak Malek,

2:17

editor-in-chief at Space.com, and apparently, for

2:19

those of you not watching the

2:21

video, because he will never let

2:23

us forget, USC graduate. And he

2:25

was in the band. Oh my

2:28

gosh. No, no, no. We're going

2:30

to talk about why this is

2:32

the USC episode forever. I'm very

2:34

excited. Very excited for today, Rod.

2:36

Doing well. Doing good. How are

2:39

you? Oh, I'm fine. Today. Would

2:41

we get to the good part?

2:43

We'll be speaking with Dr. Dan

2:45

Irwin and his student Ryan Kramer

2:48

from the University of Southern California's

2:50

undergraduate rocketry team, who recently broke

2:52

an altitude record with an amateur

2:54

rocket flight, and when I say

2:56

broke, like by a lot, like

2:59

90,000 feet. And a 20-year record

3:01

at that, we should point out.

3:03

So this is a rocket that's

3:05

like giving off Sonic booms at

3:08

two seconds after a launch of

3:10

stuff. So this isn't your... your

3:12

father's SD's model rocket. But before

3:14

we start, don't forget to do

3:16

us a solve. Make sure to

3:19

like subscribe and other cop podcast

3:21

things to let the world know

3:23

that you love us and keep

3:25

us here because we love you.

3:28

All right, now amidst more space

3:30

junk our weekly high high altitude

3:32

record space joke from Ritchie O'Shea

3:34

in Ireland. Ritchie. If I could

3:36

do an Irish accent I'd try,

3:39

but I'll spare you all. Hey

3:41

Tarak! Yes, Rob. What did Mars

3:43

say to Saturn? I don't know,

3:45

what did Mars say to Saturn?

3:48

Why don't you give me your

3:50

ring sometime? I love it! I

3:52

love it! I love it! Isn't

3:54

Jupiter closer to Mars than Saturn?

3:56

Shh! Shh! Oh, sorry, sorry. deflate

3:59

our own stuff.

4:01

All right, now I've heard All

4:03

right, now I've heard some jokes want to

4:05

stick, jokes, I've heard some folks want to

4:07

stick their face into a burning a do

4:09

what it's time for a space joke on

4:11

this show, it's but you can help. a space

4:13

by sending us your best

4:15

worst or most different space

4:18

joke to us your best, worst, or most

4:20

that's twis at twit .tv. joke to

4:22

And now, wait a minute,

4:24

I feel an audio cue

4:26

coming. It's time for time for

4:28

headlines. Headline news. Thank

4:33

you, princes, whoever you're supposed

4:36

to be. be. So this story warmed

4:38

so heart. story warmed my

4:40

heart in right. Our little on.

4:42

That's right. little helicopter

4:44

did think so. That right? about right.

4:47

A I think flights. right. lot, a

4:49

lot of flights, Yeah, lot of yeah,

4:51

I think it was was 72. So our so

4:53

our little low budget $80 million,

4:55

which a a lot for a drone,

4:57

but not much much for a Mars, Mars aircraft

5:00

aircraft. flew for a number of years

5:02

and many, many times and help guide

5:04

perseverance where we need to go we

5:06

need to all kinds of new concepts

5:08

for flying on another world and all

5:10

that, flying on last year and his last

5:12

flight, landed hard, snapped off part

5:15

of a rotor, but part of a up. That's

5:17

right. And now

5:19

we've come we've come to to understand

5:21

that it may may last

5:23

another 20 years a weather a

5:25

weather station and fixed

5:27

camera, which is pretty cool.

5:29

cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this story

5:32

came from came from space.com's own Brett

5:34

Tingley, but, uh, but they were at, hey,

5:36

yeah! yeah, but it was announced

5:38

announced at, uh, it was announced this

5:40

week this week, Union Geophysical Union NASA

5:42

NASA had like like a a what is

5:45

it like an what is it,

5:47

like an accident analysis.

5:49

They're called like the first accident on

5:51

another planet. and they they were talking

5:53

about how they they think that they

5:55

figured out like what really went wrong

5:57

like what really went but whatnot but and

5:59

There is a story there basically Mars

6:02

looks too boring for the camera on

6:04

ingenuity to be able to parse out

6:06

different details and it all looked the

6:08

same so it didn't have enough information

6:10

to understand the texture of the surface

6:13

and you know where it was and

6:15

you know how it could land safely.

6:17

It basically looked down and saw like

6:19

a sheet of yellow construction paper and

6:21

said okay. Yeah, like is it really

6:24

really close or is it really really

6:26

far? Oh, it was really really close.

6:28

That's like judging into a pool that

6:30

you thought was seven feet deep from

6:32

a diving board and it turns out

6:35

to be eight inches and empty, right?

6:37

Yeah, that's true. But one of the

6:39

real interesting things in Brett's story is

6:41

is not the fact that they know,

6:43

you know, what what happened. to the

6:46

helicopter. You know, they had some nice

6:48

diagrams about how they think that it

6:50

like how it landed hard, how it

6:52

snapped the rotor, etc. But the fact

6:54

that because as you mentioned, it landed

6:57

upright, the solar arrays are actually on

6:59

like they face up underneath the rotors

7:01

or above the rotors. And so they

7:03

are able to keep this little helicopter

7:06

powered and use its camera. as a

7:08

weather station, essentially. Like they can know

7:10

what the conditions are like at this

7:12

spot. And according to Brett's story, it

7:14

could last something like 20 years. Yes,

7:17

20 years. Yeah. And you know, if

7:19

the dust conditions allow, which is crazy,

7:21

because I mean, it's already been on

7:23

Mars for like over three years. And

7:25

so the fact that it could last

7:28

a lot longer than that. It's just

7:30

like like amazing that they've got this

7:32

tool. And this is, I mean, we

7:34

talked about it before, it's a mission

7:36

that almost never made it to Morris.

7:39

Yeah. But this is JPL. So we

7:41

are usually amazed. These are the guys

7:43

that took a 90 day rover mission

7:45

and drove it for 14 and a

7:47

half years. That's right. That's right. All

7:50

right. This isn't a big story. But

7:52

it's a good one for today since

7:54

it's happening tonight tomorrow. The geminids are

7:56

here. So if you want to go

7:58

freeze your little meteorites off, head out

8:01

to the desert or somewhere dark, although

8:03

you don't have to worry about it

8:05

being as dark as you usually would

8:07

because the moon's going to be up.

8:09

But apparently this weekend is going to

8:12

be a promising time for them. Yeah,

8:14

this weekend is the peak of the

8:16

geminid meteor shower, that annual rain of

8:18

space dust that comes from asteroid. Faithion,

8:20

it's got the numbers in front of

8:23

it, what is it, like 3200 faith,

8:25

something like that. 3200 faith in, 3200

8:27

faith in, everybody knows that. I know,

8:29

right? So, and of course, as always,

8:31

there's a caveat. So in order to

8:34

see any kind of media shower, you

8:36

have to be very far away from

8:38

from city lights, you don't want to

8:40

be like on your suburban street with

8:42

the street out in front, like on

8:45

my street, but you could see up

8:47

to 120 meteors 20 meteors an hour.

8:49

really great and the sad part is

8:51

is that those meters are actually still

8:53

there but the full moon peaks on

8:56

Sunday as well it's full this weekend

8:58

it's gonna be a full moon this

9:00

weekend so it will wash out a

9:02

lot of the faint ones but you

9:04

could still see you could still see

9:07

some some really bright ones in fact

9:09

we were talking about Brett earlier Brett

9:11

said this morning that he saw like

9:13

three or so overnight even with the

9:15

full moon so or the nearly full

9:18

moon so did he actually stay up

9:20

to see them Well, well, you just

9:22

stay up at night and he's looking

9:24

up at the sky and... Well, yeah,

9:26

but I mean, it really picks up

9:29

after midnight because you're... Yeah, well, because

9:31

after midnight, the sky lets it all

9:33

hang out. Right? Right? No, after midnight,

9:35

the earth turns into its orbit and

9:37

slands into a fast. Okay, so that's

9:40

a song. For every minute, Raj is

9:42

like, like, skip right over it. My

9:44

musical knowledge stops at 1939 at 1939

9:46

at 1939. other than the sporadics that

9:48

you just see on random nights, is

9:51

the Earth going through a part of

9:53

its orbit where an asteroid or a

9:55

comet has gone by a leftist? gravel

9:57

bank that we slam

9:59

into. we This one

10:02

I guess has

10:04

some some slightly unique

10:07

or elements in the asteroid

10:09

Phaeton because there's a a

10:12

lot of green. and different

10:14

colors in the colors in the

10:16

larger I So I remember

10:18

once seeing a... a horizon horizon

10:20

bolide, which is a which is

10:22

a you know, come up over know, come

10:24

up over the the set in the was

10:26

It was like watching a fast fast

10:28

motion sun. Amazing. and And it was bright

10:30

green and it it off off fragments and

10:32

stuff. I mean, it was breathtaking. was

10:34

And that was the its beast probably the size

10:36

of a probably the size of a basketball

10:39

or something. So that was pretty cool. sorry

10:41

right, I'm sorry. good the reason I think The reason

10:43

that I think it's really good to

10:45

point that out because there's always been been like

10:47

a back back and forth of it is is faith

10:49

on even an asteroid or is it a

10:51

it a is it it in between? between? Well it's an

10:53

asteroid. Yeah, Yeah. So, uh, so now we

10:56

know it's an asteroid, But, you know, as

10:58

we found the last few years, a lot

11:00

of asteroids aren't big rocks. They're big

11:02

gravel banks that are just held together by

11:04

mutual attraction, held of like you and me,

11:06

mutual attraction, sort know as they as they me,

11:08

through space stuff can come off

11:10

and that's what we slam it to

11:12

all right that's what we slam into.

11:15

All another NASA update. So, update.

11:17

So, don't mean to sound

11:19

discouraged, but this is kind

11:21

of of like... So it's a humans to the

11:23

the and Mars update, moon to Mars

11:25

is their mantra now at least mantra

11:27

now, new administration comes in where

11:30

they might do something else. This

11:32

feels kind of like.

11:34

do something a DRM light. kind

11:37

of like the years, we've

11:39

the years, we've Let's see what

11:41

I say, since 1988. since 1988. There's

11:43

been 12 major studies, including design reference mission

11:45

or design reference architectures which are these

11:47

big, formal, expensive studies they do

11:50

to say, say okay? how are we

11:52

going to get to to get when

11:54

we finally decide to go, we finally

11:56

they come, they go, they come,

11:58

they go they to 1988. 1988 There was

12:00

probably another, I think it's six or

12:02

seven, since Ron Braun back in the

12:05

50s, major studies. So if we just

12:07

stack the paper, you know, going from

12:09

these studies, we could just walk to

12:12

Mars. I know, right? But we keep

12:14

doing them. So here's another one, although

12:16

it didn't, it didn't appear to be

12:19

to be as major as a formal

12:21

DRM, but it talked about using nuclear

12:23

reactors for power in the moon and

12:25

Mars, which you assumed they would. There

12:28

was a bunch of other stuff that

12:30

I thought I wrote down here, but

12:32

I didn't. Oh yeah, well, what we

12:35

should point is that? So this is.

12:37

Cargo Landers, Habitats, and so forth. Yeah,

12:39

sorry. Yeah, so this comes straight from

12:42

NASA, everybody, and this is their, their,

12:44

their big moon to Mars architectural review.

12:46

So it's a 2024 to their big

12:48

architecture about how we're going to get

12:51

to the moon. how we're going to

12:53

get to Mars in 20 years or

12:55

whatever. You know, oh my gosh, it's

12:58

like been forever. And to do that,

13:00

they have these 12 new white papers

13:02

that touch on very specific either needs

13:05

or capabilities or something that they think

13:07

is either lacking now or needs to

13:09

be improved. And that covers everything. We've

13:11

got lunar surface cargo. quote unquote mobility

13:14

drivers and needs. So that's like we

13:16

need things to truck cargo and people

13:18

around on the moon. You have Mars

13:21

crew complement considerations. What do you need

13:23

to actually have a crew safe to

13:25

go to Mars? And then surface power

13:28

needs and I think part of that

13:30

is nuclear vision, you know, they're talking

13:32

about nuclear systems and power plants. I

13:34

mean, everything that you would think of

13:37

you would need, there's like a white

13:39

paper. for these things. You know, assent

13:41

propellant, you know, what do you need

13:44

to get off the planet? Because getting

13:46

there is, you know, half the battle.

13:48

So, so they're touching on like everything

13:51

and I think the frustrating part that

13:53

I'm picking up from you, Rod, and

13:55

please correct me if I am wrong.

13:57

The frustrating part you're picking up is

14:00

I turned you into an old man

14:02

waiting for him to go back to

14:04

the moon. That's what's getting frustrated. Is

14:07

that it's just a lot of, it's

14:09

more iteration and more fine tuning for

14:11

a program that seems to just really.

14:14

be spinning and spinning and not really

14:16

getting off the ground. And I think

14:18

that's really going to be a challenge

14:20

that we see, not just NASA, but

14:23

the United States face as we come

14:25

up to on a new administration with

14:27

a new NASA administrator. They're going to

14:30

inherit this architecture and then there's going

14:32

to be more changes or tweaks as

14:34

they refine different priorities once that administration

14:37

gets underway. So we will, I mean,

14:39

it's good that they have this update

14:41

now so that they've got. the basis

14:43

of all the considerations that need to

14:46

be done when they start to make

14:48

those changes then, but you know how

14:50

much this is really going to reflect

14:53

what actually happens in the next say

14:55

10 years to get people back to

14:57

the moon or 20 to get people

15:00

to Mars, I think it's still, you

15:02

know, uncertain because that new administration, that

15:04

new NASA chief, that new agency is

15:06

going to put its stamp on this

15:09

this outline, if you will, and this

15:11

architecture. Okay, so I'm going to write

15:13

Jared Isaacman a letter after I get

15:16

off the show. I'm going to say,

15:18

Jared, you know, I'm 30 years older

15:20

than you or something, I think I

15:23

was born 84, and so I'm old

15:25

enough to have seen the space race.

15:27

I've old enough to have seen a

15:29

time, admittedly with more money and resources,

15:32

but with much more primitive technology, that

15:34

we started from zero and got to

15:36

the moon. in eight years. Three different

15:39

crude spacecraft, dude. Don't forget. Now, this

15:41

program that we're currently undertaking started in

15:43

one form or another in 2004. 2004.

15:46

That's right. Constellation. So it's been 20

15:48

years. With lots of money, with much

15:50

more advanced computer modeling and engineering techniques,

15:52

metallurgy and all that. And, and, not

15:55

very smartly in my opinion, using legacy

15:57

hardware from the shuttle that's incredibly expensive

15:59

to update and maintain and so forth

16:02

instead of buying engines with the origin

16:04

or SpaceX, but whatever, you know, they

16:06

weren't ready at the time. What is

16:09

the holdup? I don't know, man. And

16:11

let me just say one more thing

16:13

if I can. Mobile launch structure. $325

16:15

million. And now it's, I think. uh...

16:18

extended out that's going to be two

16:20

point two billion yeah this is that

16:22

you brown the carrier for for for

16:25

us els is exploration upper state it's

16:27

just unfathomable which is and if it

16:29

is and we've talked in the past

16:32

like are they gonna cancel less less

16:34

anyway or not like then the then

16:36

they've built all this stuff for what

16:38

for what so i don't know it's

16:41

really a captain kirk from trouble with

16:43

dribbles there what what What? Storage cabinet?

16:45

Storage cabinets? Why we're out here, right?

16:48

So. All right, so I have one

16:50

more item here, which is a question

16:52

from a beloved listener, Darren Kusano. Dear

16:55

Tark, what is up with the Jersey

16:57

drones? And from what I saw, we

16:59

don't have any real answers. One expert

17:01

thinks they're military swarms, or the military

17:04

has said, it's not us. And the

17:06

main thing the feds are saying, don't

17:08

shoot at them. because they're big and

17:11

they may crash. Now I've looked at

17:13

the videos, I've seen the reports, there's

17:15

a lot of people saying, oh it's

17:18

the size of a school bus, you

17:20

know. S-U-V, yep, yep. And it's like

17:22

one thing that came up during UFO

17:24

hearings starting in the 60s was even

17:27

if you talk to military aviators. It's

17:29

really hard to guess the size of

17:31

an aircraft because you have very few,

17:34

it's like the same thing I experienced

17:36

up in the Arctic when it was

17:38

just sand and rocks in sky. You

17:41

have no real points of reference, you

17:43

don't know how big that rock is

17:45

over there, and if you're looking at

17:47

a clear... horizon and say over the

17:50

ocean, you don't have any idea how

17:52

big that thing is because you don't

17:54

know how far it is. So your

17:57

brain is, you don't realize it until

17:59

you've gone somewhere like that Arctic base,

18:01

but your brain looks for comparative objects

18:04

and guesses based primarily on haze, like

18:06

how hazy and how soft and how

18:08

faded out it is. And we don't

18:11

have any haze or road signs or

18:13

street lamps or anything as I did.

18:15

you know 80 foot rock suddenly becomes

18:17

12 feet high because it's a lot

18:20

closer do you think so you know

18:22

I don't think I trust the size

18:24

estimates on these things but they do

18:27

appear to be flying in formation they

18:29

have marker lights which if they were

18:31

you know Chinese spycraft or something you

18:34

probably wouldn't have marker lights on it

18:36

and these days you could do that

18:38

was something the size of a bumblebee

18:40

so why the heck are these things

18:43

the size of maybe? of Shabbat. Yeah,

18:45

I've heard SUVs is what I've seen.

18:47

So, case in point, I live near

18:50

U.S. like New York City. I was

18:52

going to say U.S.C. I've heard that.

18:54

So, so, you know, I'm in New

18:57

Jersey, but just outside of New York.

18:59

So I'm in northern New Jersey and

19:01

a lot of the southern New Jersey

19:03

and like the coast. So maybe it's

19:06

a different kind of place down there.

19:08

I don't know. I haven't seen any

19:10

of these drones personally myself. And I'm

19:13

sure there's a mundane explanation for them.

19:15

In fact, I think I mentioned this

19:17

to them too because, you know, to

19:20

me it seems like it would either

19:22

be something that's either military or maybe

19:24

there's like some super secret film being

19:26

filmed out there, you know, and they're

19:29

trying to keep it on the deal.

19:31

I don't know. I don't know. But

19:33

it is just being reported in Oregon

19:36

and San Diego. I think. Well, that

19:38

is so weird. I don't know. I

19:40

don't see like what's stopping the government

19:43

from like, especially when they fly over

19:45

these military bases to just go up

19:47

and catch one. Do an intercept. I'm

19:49

sure they can just get up there

19:52

with another drone that has a net

19:54

on it and catch it, right? I

19:56

mean, it's like the pigeon? I mean,

19:59

no, you got to make sure it's

20:01

not over somebody's house or business or

20:03

something. So, but I fully plan to

20:06

go down to the boat on Sunday

20:08

and spend a couple of very cold

20:10

evenings out there, because, you know, Long

20:12

Beach Harbor, cold in Long Beach, right?

20:15

It's like 27 degrees outside right now,

20:17

right? Well, that's, you live in the

20:19

wrong part of the country. Okay, chilly,

20:22

but I've got a hundred, almost 108

20:24

degrees of visibility, you know, you know,

20:26

it's, as you know, it's, it's, it's,

20:29

it's lit pretty brightly brightly brightly brightly

20:31

brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly

20:33

brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly brightly

20:35

brightly brightly at night brightly at night

20:38

brightly at night, But if there's something

20:40

flying around, I should be able to

20:42

see it. Because I'm dying to see

20:45

one of these things. Yeah. Because they

20:47

do appear to be quite big. And

20:49

they're large. They're large. Are they in

20:52

charge? I guess we're going to find

20:54

out. Right. Larged and in charge. Talk

20:56

about ourselves. So I have a great

20:58

kind of a work through the question

21:01

explanation thing, but I'm going to save

21:03

it for next week so that I

21:05

can bore Anthony and everybody else on

21:08

our special episode. Oh, nice cocked eyebrow

21:10

from him. All right, let's go to

21:12

a quick break and we'll be back

21:15

with Daniel and Ryan in just a

21:17

few minutes to talk about big amateur

21:19

rockets from USC from USC. Yeah, it

21:21

says the guy who flunked calculus and

21:24

was in the band. Okay. Stand by.

21:26

We'll be right back. AT&T customers switching

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-USA USA.com sale for complete for complete

22:44

terms. Restrictions apply. We are are back

22:47

with Dr. Erwin Daniel Ryan

22:49

and Ryan Kramer of the University of

22:51

Southern California that that other

22:53

school in Southern California, Oh you just

22:55

fight on USC. I'm on USC. here.

22:57

Yeah so now I'm outnumbered here.

22:59

professor of astronautics and aerospace a professor

23:01

of engineering at USC at Engineering

23:03

at USC at the and

23:06

of Engineering, and Ryan is

23:08

an undergraduate student. which is Which

23:10

is, which is interesting because you

23:12

don't find a lot of undergraduates reading

23:14

leading things the the USC rocket propulsion

23:16

lab. know know, usually that gets saved

23:18

for the, for the grad the grad So

23:20

it's pretty cool. cool. that is an

23:23

undergrad, you get to do that.

23:25

And I know the second I release

23:27

Tark who's who's wearing his USC shirt today

23:29

is make a bunch of noise about

23:31

being in the band being in the band and all other

23:33

shirt too, it says too it says USC. all

23:35

the other things that he and I

23:37

did that did not get us into

23:39

being in the technical end of space.

23:42

end of space. Tell tell me a little bit

23:44

about, uh, how this got started, if you you

23:46

would. Well,

23:48

if if you want to talk about

23:50

the about the club's can definitely tell you about

23:52

that, okay, that'll be good tell you

23:54

about that. Okay, Okay, well, the

23:57

whole thing started when thing started

23:59

when a, uh, young student of freshmen, his

24:01

name is Ian Whittinghill, came into

24:03

my office in fall of 2004

24:05

and he told me that he

24:07

had spent his youth in a

24:09

kind of an airspace family and

24:11

he launched a lot of rockets

24:13

with his dad and he'd kind

24:15

of done everything he could do

24:17

just as a basically by himself

24:19

and in his family and his

24:21

goal was to start a rocket

24:23

group at a college and since

24:25

he was there at USC, he

24:27

wanted to start a rocket lab

24:29

at USC and as it happens.

24:31

I had an open, we had

24:34

just remodeled and redone our research

24:36

lab and I had an open

24:38

side. And so I thought, okay,

24:40

let's do this. And so the

24:42

following spring in 2005, we actually

24:44

put out a call for some

24:46

students. I got a little bit

24:48

of funding from the School of

24:50

Engineering. We bought some stuff, we

24:52

used some things I had sitting

24:54

around and we got started. And

24:56

Ian's initial prediction was that. that

24:58

they would get to space in

25:00

about a year and a half,

25:02

but it was off by a

25:04

factor of 10. It took actually

25:06

till 2019 to make it happen.

25:08

Well, I don't feel bad. That

25:10

sounds a lot like the Artemis

25:12

program, so I think that's right.

25:14

I just have one quick follow-up,

25:16

which is I have described myself

25:18

in the past as an amateur

25:20

rocket here to people, but my

25:22

experience other than, you know, the

25:24

SD's toy rockets and all that

25:26

that many of us did as

25:28

kids, maxed out with, I think

25:30

an F-engine rocket, which I built

25:32

in my 20s, which I built

25:34

in my 20s. And I didn't

25:36

like kits, so I decided, well,

25:38

I know better than the instructions

25:40

how to design this thing. So

25:42

I added some retaining tabs at

25:44

the top to hold the nose

25:46

cone in, not realizing that one

25:48

would fold back and cause it

25:50

to fly into ballistic arc onto

25:52

the first baseline of a Little

25:54

League game that was currently in

25:56

play. The fathers there did not

25:58

find the little charred crater I

26:01

made at all amusing, and that

26:03

was the end of my rocketry

26:05

career. I assume you're doing something

26:07

a little larger and more powerful

26:09

than what I did. Just to

26:11

give an idea the The current

26:13

rockets have a thrust of around

26:15

1,500 pounds. Ryan can correct me

26:17

on the numbers, but you could

26:19

use a couple of them to

26:21

pick up a car if you

26:23

wanted to. They're unbelievably loud. Yeah,

26:25

yeah. So like you mentioned that

26:27

you flew an F motor and

26:29

you know the power rankings go

26:31

on kind of an exponential scale.

26:33

So like each next letter it's

26:35

like times two, right times two,

26:37

right. we fly like the largest

26:39

motor that we fly as an

26:41

arm motor. And yeah, like Dr.

26:43

Irwin said, that means like 50,000

26:45

pound force seconds. Oh yeah, yeah,

26:47

there it is. And then the

26:49

1500 pounds force, that's like on

26:51

our smaller scale stuff now, but

26:53

yeah, 4,000 pounds stuff like that.

26:55

It can get, obviously, if we

26:57

were to send it realistically like

26:59

a missile, then it would be.

27:01

possibly more than a crater, which

27:03

is why, you know, you got

27:05

to be safe playing around with

27:07

these. Yeah, that would probably end

27:09

the little league game, for sure.

27:11

That should press rocket. So for

27:13

those who are listening and not

27:15

watching the video, on the video

27:17

stream, we have a clip of

27:19

their, how many, 4,000 parents you

27:21

said for this one or 1500?

27:23

It peaks a little under 4,000,

27:25

this one. You can read it

27:28

on the thrust half up top.

27:30

Yeah. Oh, well, if I was

27:32

an engineer, I'd know that. But

27:34

it's called Shock Wave, I think,

27:36

which is whimsical and fitting, that's

27:38

something Elon would probably like. And

27:40

it's a solid rocket, right? Yeah,

27:42

all solids. Okay, Tark, I'll shut

27:44

up now, because I know you're

27:46

bursting at the scenes. Well, I

27:48

just want to ask my standard

27:50

question that I always ask every

27:52

guest on the show. And maybe

27:54

Daniel we could start with you

27:56

first, but then Ryan, please feel

27:58

free to jump in. And that's

28:00

basically what's your path. to either

28:02

space or to engineering, you know,

28:04

doctor, whichever you'd like to start

28:06

with, you know, what got you

28:08

there? Was it something that like

28:10

grabbed you when you were a

28:12

kid? Or is it something that

28:14

happened through an evolution of interests

28:16

and academics? I'm just curious, like,

28:18

what that path was that led

28:20

you kind of to this moment

28:22

where now you've got a history

28:24

making rocket under your belt. I

28:26

did draw astronauts in space stations

28:28

when I was a kid, but

28:30

I had my relatives were largely

28:32

doctors and I just assumed to

28:34

the kid I was going to

28:36

be a medical doctor, but then

28:38

I hit ninth grade biology and

28:40

deception and oh no, that's not

28:42

for me. So meanwhile I was

28:44

realizing that what I actually could

28:46

do was math and science. So

28:48

I did, I did applied physics

28:50

with an undergrad and I majored

28:52

in electrical engineering as a grad

28:55

student. So still nothing to do

28:57

with arrow and rockets. But then

28:59

in, as a young professor, we

29:01

were in a place where the

29:03

Apollo generation was starting to retire

29:05

and the industry, he was in

29:07

TRW, those kind of companies were

29:09

around that, this is in the

29:11

90s, they told USC that we

29:13

needed to amp up our space

29:15

research and education and we started

29:17

a whole astronautics group. So I

29:19

started teaching rocket propulsion propulsion, which

29:21

was a big change for me.

29:23

And I still probably wouldn't have

29:25

started a student group on my

29:27

own. It really took the students

29:29

like Ian, and then a year

29:31

later, another guy came along, a

29:33

guy named David Reese, who was

29:35

really good at solid propellants. Ian

29:37

was good at structures, and between

29:39

the two of them, they got

29:41

the whole thing started. And then

29:43

we've been lucky, every couple of

29:45

years, a couple of really new

29:47

students come along. I mean, really

29:49

new, really good students come along,

29:51

and we've kept the thing going

29:53

for... for now 20 years. We're

29:55

going to have our 20th anniversary

29:57

celebration this coming February. Oh, that's

29:59

exciting. Five years too late. Five

30:01

years too late. So, Ryan, how

30:03

about you? Was space always in

30:05

your veins there? Or is it

30:07

something that you found later when

30:09

you got into college? Honestly, yeah,

30:11

like I've always been interested in

30:13

engineering. funny story I like to

30:15

tell is like in kindergarten they

30:17

did this like career day you

30:19

know where you can choose what

30:22

you want to do like for

30:24

college or whatever it was and

30:26

you could there's like a bunch

30:28

of different options like you know

30:30

art and painting and cooking and

30:32

chemistry and then uh so I

30:34

wanted to do cooking because you

30:36

got a free cake out of

30:38

it. But then, because I was

30:40

a kindergartner and I couldn't read,

30:42

I chose chemistry because it started

30:44

with a C. And then I

30:46

just got into STEM from there.

30:48

And then, you know, I didn't

30:50

really, I wasn't interested in space

30:52

much specifically. You know, I thought

30:54

engineering was cool when I actually

30:56

got to USC. I was still

30:58

thinking I might do like electric

31:00

vehicles or something like that. You

31:02

know, we have a good electric

31:04

racing team here, but then... I

31:06

found the Rock Propulsion Lab and

31:08

it was kind of sold from

31:10

there, you know, this club is

31:12

super cool and I can't imagine

31:14

myself doing anything else now. Okay,

31:16

Tark, do we want to spend

31:18

any more time winding about where

31:20

were these opportunities when we were

31:22

that age or so? Well, I

31:24

wanted to say that Daniel had

31:26

the reverse experience that we had.

31:28

Right? I know. Right? Whereas we,

31:30

you and I hit that differential

31:32

equation wall and that ended our

31:34

engineering or science career. He sailed

31:36

through it. Right, right? But biology

31:38

was his Achilles heel. I was

31:40

going to point out that Ryan,

31:42

we're all in good company because

31:44

as we know, not only is

31:46

USC home to Dr. Dan. here

31:49

and yourself Ryan and of course

31:51

it was you know me in

31:53

the marching band it was amazing

31:55

but also always got to work

31:57

the marching band in there somehow

31:59

Neil I was I played trumpet

32:01

in the band everybody so it

32:03

was a lot I played trumpet

32:05

too all right see I'm like

32:07

in the band I'm like in

32:09

this guy's get a room we

32:11

had a bunch of students in

32:13

the band that is great that

32:15

is great to know but of

32:17

course of course Neil Armstrong graduate

32:19

of USC school of engineering too

32:21

so there's a big plaque for

32:23

him and everything it's great it's

32:25

great That's great. You're welcome. You're

32:27

welcome America for your moonlander, right?

32:29

USC. All right, okay. I don't

32:31

think he designed them later, but

32:33

that's fine. So let's jump right

32:35

in now that Tarks had his

32:37

way with all of us. After

32:39

Shock 2 is the name of

32:41

the rocket, correct? Yeah. So I'm

32:43

sure that you iterated up to

32:45

this point. If you can just

32:47

tell us about this particular rocket.

32:49

And I don't mean to oversimplify

32:51

this, but really, since we're kind

32:53

of starting at ground zero, chuckle-

32:55

chuckle. What differentiates this from, say,

32:57

what I'd see from, you know,

32:59

a mid-level hobbyist at Black Rock,

33:01

the Black Rock Range or something?

33:03

Yeah, so, you know, that's a

33:05

good point as well. We launch

33:07

out of the Black Rock Desert,

33:09

similar to if you're familiar with

33:11

the balls competition, or I guess

33:13

it's not necessarily a competition as

33:16

much as an event. we know

33:18

a lot of obvious get together

33:20

and launch their high performance experimental

33:22

rockets. We launch out of there

33:24

because it's high performing, but I

33:26

would say what kind of differentiates

33:28

us from those is that the

33:30

way probably that I see the

33:32

club has developed its rocket over

33:34

time is, you know, we started,

33:36

you know, 20 years ago, basically,

33:38

like Dr. Nguyen mentioned with hobby

33:40

rocketry experience, but since then we

33:42

have kind of been developing on

33:44

the side our own design over

33:46

those 20 years and each year

33:48

it we make it you know

33:50

slightly better and better. some

33:52

years we make

33:54

it worse and

33:56

then it blows

33:58

up and then

34:00

we make it

34:02

better. up and then we make

34:04

it better. would say one of

34:06

the big things is just the continuity

34:08

of those 20 years continuity of those 20 years

34:10

and like basically continuous

34:13

design. continuous continuous,

34:15

but then also, of course, as

34:17

a team. then also of course as

34:19

a you can get a bit

34:21

more more funding than on their

34:23

own could do. it's great to

34:25

work as a team because you

34:27

can kind of accomplish more, yourself

34:29

thinner there's more people to

34:31

handle all the stuff handle all the

34:34

stuff. Well, you sound you sound like you're

34:36

primed for for but we're gonna talk

34:38

about that later. talk about fact, before we

34:40

talk about that, we're gonna go to

34:42

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35:47

So, you know, and you know, sure we I'm

35:49

sure we mentioned that BlackRock is in

35:51

Nevada, but I mean, you I mean, you

35:53

launched right out of the, like the Mojave as

35:55

the or at least the as well, or at least

35:57

the program has, correct? In the past back in

35:59

2019, there was a. like a big launch there

36:01

with Traveler 4 2. So I'm really

36:03

curious, by the way Travelers the name

36:06

of the mascot, the horse, that rides

36:08

out during the games. And so I'm

36:10

curious, compared to that launch, what were

36:13

the big advancements that you and the

36:15

team were trying to make, or that

36:17

you did make, right, for After Shock

36:20

2, to kind of hit the targets

36:22

that you were able to, I'm not

36:24

sure if we talked about how high.

36:27

everything went. We didn't rod right so

36:29

yeah so maybe maybe maybe Ryan that's

36:31

a good place to start let's say

36:34

this is you're here to talk about

36:36

these this record this record launch what

36:38

happened right what happened with after shock

36:41

to walk us walk us through it

36:43

kind of like like drwin mentioned is

36:45

it took them 15 years after the

36:47

club was founded to launch traveler four

36:50

and the goal with that was like

36:52

So far in 2004 actually I don't

36:54

know if maybe Ian was inspired by

36:57

the Go Fast launch but in 2004

36:59

a group of like amateur hobbyists they

37:01

were adults kind of all in their

37:04

careers already they got together and launched

37:06

a rocket called Go Fast to 380,000

37:08

feet space like the boundary of space

37:11

the Carmen line is like oh like

37:13

around 330,000 feet. So yeah it took

37:15

our club. 15 years to do that.

37:18

And they launched to basically 340,000 feet

37:20

with Traveler 4. That was actually out

37:22

of Space Port America and New Mexico.

37:24

We launched all of these videos that

37:27

you're showing right now like our smaller

37:29

vehicles. Those are the ones to launch

37:31

out of Mojave. Got it. And then

37:34

we get the bigger rockets in more

37:36

remote locations basically. But yeah, then after

37:38

Traveler 4. you know the pandemic struck

37:41

pretty soon after and we wanted to

37:43

go back as soon as we could

37:45

but then you know because the club

37:48

relies on transfer of knowledge we just

37:50

needed to make sure because you know

37:52

people are graduating that's one of the

37:55

main challenges with the club is people

37:57

are graduating we wanted to do something

37:59

bigger and better but it just took

38:01

us a bit of you know honing

38:04

our skills passing on the knowledge all

38:06

those people who had been there for

38:08

the time of travel before it taught

38:11

us everything they know and then it

38:13

took us like another five years but

38:15

we got there and it was like

38:18

so I mentioned Go Fast was 380,000

38:20

feet and After Shock 2 went to

38:22

470,000 feet. And that's like, then those

38:25

are the only three rockets by amateurs

38:27

that have made it to space. So

38:29

we think we crushed the record pretty

38:32

well, so well almost that we don't

38:34

know if we should attempt to beat

38:36

it because it might go over the

38:39

legal limit. They're beating Virgin Galactic and

38:41

I think Blue Origin. So that's pretty

38:43

impressive. Those guys have a little more

38:45

money. So Dr. Erwin, I have a

38:48

question. Oh, and I want to mention,

38:50

you know, it's comforting. I was watching

38:52

the video yesterday. It was comforting. It

38:55

was watching the video yesterday. It was

38:57

comforting to see that it was comforting

38:59

to those kids playing Little League who

39:02

just stood there with a shock look

39:04

on their faces. Anyway, I started getting

39:06

carried away. It's unusual for a lab

39:09

like this or program like this to

39:11

be run and staffed by undergrads, isn't

39:13

it? This sounds kind of kind of

39:16

groundbreaking. Well, here's the thing. It's undergrads

39:18

who have time and motivation to do

39:20

things that are kind of for glory

39:22

or for their own purposes as opposed

39:25

to grad students who are busy working

39:27

for a, typically a PhD thesis. And

39:29

so grad students have a lot less

39:32

spare time. Yeah. Undergrads, you have to

39:34

realize that when they graduate and they

39:36

go out into industry, the industry people

39:39

interview them and you can't really tell

39:41

from somebody's grades how good they're going

39:43

to be. What you really want to

39:46

see is what they've actually done. So

39:48

students who have worked on hands-on student

39:50

projects like Rocket Lab, there's a whole

39:53

bunch more, by the way, in the

39:55

School of Engineering, but the Rocket Lab

39:57

is perhaps the most famous now, but

39:59

students who have worked in Rocket Lab

40:02

and can show what they've done, have

40:04

kind of a golden ticket in the

40:06

industry. The experience is very, very valuable.

40:09

And there are a lot of student

40:11

groups that are... that are designed around

40:13

national competitions. So USC has, for example,

40:16

and the air design team that flies

40:18

aircraft for a national competition run by

40:20

the Aeronautics and Astronautics Association, yeah, AA.

40:23

But RPL is unusual in that there's

40:25

no specific competition. They were founded with

40:27

the goal of being the first student

40:30

group, you get to space. And that

40:32

they pursued the goal single-mindedly all these

40:34

years. So it isn't actually unusual like

40:37

you think in fact it would be

40:39

it would be more unusual if this

40:41

were a grad student organization Let's see

40:43

You know, I'm curious where or after

40:46

shock to lens up in the programs

40:48

Like achievements, you know, you mentioned that

40:50

you you passed the Carmeline you kind

40:53

of shattered it. I think you hit

40:55

like 90 miles, which is crazy, right?

40:57

So that's actually higher than Blue Origin

41:00

too, now that we think about it.

41:02

And so, and I think it's, it's

41:04

what, it's about 13 feet tall, 330

41:07

pounds, and then you were able to

41:09

reach like what, 3,600 miles an hour

41:11

or so, just just over that. Yeah.

41:14

Where does that line up, you know,

41:16

in... in the vehicle evolution? I mean,

41:18

you know, is the rocket just get

41:20

bigger and bigger and that's what lets

41:23

you get higher and faster? Is it

41:25

lighter? Is it smarter? Like, where does

41:27

it line up for the evolution there?

41:30

Yeah, so if you look actually at

41:32

Traveler 4 and After Shock 2. you

41:34

know, are two kind of biggest most

41:37

successful rockets. They have the exact same

41:39

outer dimensions. Meanwhile, after shock two went

41:41

like 1.4 times higher than traveler four.

41:44

And there's like, you know, there's a

41:46

lot of things. It looks basically the

41:48

same on the outside, but... everything on

41:51

the inside is essentially what allows it

41:53

to go higher and some you know

41:55

more thermal stuff on the outside but

41:57

you know we we it's actually used

42:00

a completely new propellant that we formulated

42:02

our club formulated and you know we

42:04

cast that propellant it uses kind of

42:07

we we kind of squeezed together all

42:09

the rest of the systems so that

42:11

we could fit more propellant in there

42:14

and then we you know made everything

42:16

lighter that we could And yeah, it's

42:18

just, it's, we actually didn't work entirely

42:21

by making the rocket bigger. It was

42:23

mostly by optimizing things because we actually

42:25

have like a kind of limit on

42:28

how big we can make things just

42:30

based on the infrastructure we have in

42:32

our lab space. And actually in the

42:34

future, we're considering making our rockets smaller

42:37

but still achieving the same height. So

42:39

we'll see how that goes. So one

42:41

of the problems I had in my

42:44

brief and unimpressive career as an amateur

42:46

rocketeer, like many, because there were no

42:48

electronics involved at the time, because I'm

42:51

old, was tracking the thing down down

42:53

range. You know, the parish, it goes

42:55

up, you lose sight of it, parachute

42:58

pops, you kind of might track it

43:00

for a second, and then it disappears.

43:02

And because I was doing this in

43:05

Southern California down Orange County, It was

43:07

critical to find it quickly because they

43:09

tended to start fires. And of course

43:12

we were always launching in the summer

43:14

and poosh, and that did happen a

43:16

couple of times when we put it

43:18

out. I assume you had some kind

43:21

of radio tracker on this so you

43:23

could go track it down? Yeah, we

43:25

have a lot of different tracking systems.

43:28

The main ones that were successful on

43:30

this flight were... GPS-based, so they, you

43:32

know, they talk to the satellites wherever

43:35

they are on Earth. Of course, GPS

43:37

actually locks out if you're going so

43:39

fast and so high because the government

43:42

doesn't want people using GPS for missiles

43:44

or anything like that. So we're only

43:46

able to get a GPS data low

43:49

to the ground, which is important because,

43:51

you know, that's where you want to

43:53

find the rocket. And yeah, it talks

43:55

to the satellites and then radios back

43:58

that information as well. The satellites tell

44:00

us and then the radios tell us

44:02

we have a system that tries to

44:05

trilaturate the rocket, you know, basically from

44:07

the launch point we send a few

44:09

groups of people out a few miles

44:12

away each in different directions so they

44:14

can point radios, point antennas at the

44:16

rocket and based on Yale. the time

44:19

that it takes for the signal to

44:21

go to the rocket and come back,

44:23

you can tell how much distance the

44:26

radio signal traveled. And that way you

44:28

can get a position on the rocket.

44:30

It didn't work on this flight, unfortunately,

44:32

but it's worked before and where that's

44:35

like one of the cooler things we're

44:37

hoping to get working in the future

44:39

for sure. Is that like what happens?

44:42

When you know how to do math

44:44

and you have like computers more advanced

44:46

than those crummy calculators we had, they

44:49

can triangulate things. I was going to

44:51

say when I launch my Estes Rock,

44:53

because that's like the funnest part, is

44:56

this to go run after it, most

44:58

fun. I shouldn't say fun. I shouldn't

45:00

say fun. I shouldn't say fun. I

45:03

shouldn't say fun. That's not a word.

45:05

I shouldn't say fun. I shouldn't say

45:07

fun. That's not a fun. I shouldn't

45:10

say fun. Most fun. I shouldn't say

45:12

fun. I shouldn't say fun. I shouldn't

45:14

say fun. I shouldn't say fun. I

45:16

shouldn't say fun. I say fun. That's

45:19

when I say fun. That's when I

45:21

say fun. fun. That's when I say

45:23

fun. That's when I say fun. That's

45:26

when. That's when. That's when. That's when.

45:28

That's when. That's when. That's when. That's

45:30

when. That's when. That's when. are just

45:33

like getting their their feedback for academics

45:35

and one on. And I'm curious how

45:37

the program and and like the students

45:40

that that you oversee you know adapt

45:42

to that schedule. I mean is this

45:44

something that's just always going on in

45:47

the background that you have students that

45:49

you're overseeing? like throughout the summer and

45:51

the year or is there like a

45:53

really specific time where you have to

45:56

get them into gear? And with like

45:58

Ryan and the members to go out,

46:00

you know, to go out to Nevada

46:03

and Black Rock to have everything ready.

46:05

I mean, I'm curious how you kind

46:07

of wrangle those cats to get to

46:10

space when they have finals and everything

46:12

else to worry about. You're acting as

46:14

though I'm in charge of the students.

46:17

Actually, the students are very self-motivated. They

46:19

pretty much schedule their own trips. By

46:21

the way, October is not the start

46:24

of the school year for us. That's

46:26

more of a UCLA thing because we

46:28

start in August. So by October, we're

46:30

well, where some of the students are

46:33

taking midterms by that time. So we

46:35

don't do much over the summer, by

46:37

the way. The summer is kind of

46:40

a downtime for the rocket lab because

46:42

the students are all off doing their

46:44

summer interning their summer internships. So the

46:47

lab tends to be fairly empty. But

46:49

fall and spring semesters are when everything

46:51

really happens. One year, they were a

46:54

little late in their launch work, and

46:56

they actually did a launch during finals

46:58

week. That was really, that worked out

47:01

very badly. And we made a rule

47:03

that that could never happen again. But

47:05

in general, when students are going to

47:08

go out, and by the way, this

47:10

is a big group, I think, Ryan,

47:12

correct me if I'm wrong, but I

47:14

think about 150 students attended this launch.

47:17

Really? Wow, yeah, 130 came out here

47:19

this time. No, I had a little,

47:21

okay, I was a little overestimated, but

47:24

still a pretty big group. And they

47:26

have to miss class because it isn't

47:28

just a one day trip, there's a,

47:31

it's a long drive, plus they camp,

47:33

they set up there, it's a multi

47:35

day trip, the launches actually on over

47:38

the weekend, but they, the earliest people

47:40

leave in the early part of the

47:42

week. So they miss a bunch of

47:45

classes, and in some cases they had

47:47

to miss midterms, so. Part of my

47:49

job is to write to their professors

47:51

and say, this is a USC thing.

47:54

It's considered very important by the School

47:56

of Engineering. Would you please do the

47:58

extra work that it takes to give

48:01

these. students make-ups or do something to

48:03

accommodate their missing work. And the other

48:05

professors are universally very nice about it

48:08

because it is extra work. And they

48:10

gladly do it because they've, I don't

48:12

know how it is for other clubs,

48:15

but Rocket Lab gets really good press

48:17

and I think all across the university

48:19

people have heard of it. So the

48:22

students get a lot of leeway. Well

48:25

it didn't, good lord, his name

48:27

is Casey in the bone, the

48:29

guy that started Relativity Space came

48:32

out of your program as well.

48:34

Tim Ellis. There were two, and

48:36

they were both from Rocket Lab.

48:38

One's Jordan Noon, and the other

48:40

is Tim Ellis. Okay. Wow, that's

48:43

a, that's a respectable, that's a

48:45

respectable crew there. All right, we're

48:47

gonna go to another break, and

48:49

we'll be right back, so hold

48:52

your launch until we return. AT&T

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50:19

So the the other major I don't

50:21

know if you want to use

50:23

the term amateur because you guys

50:25

are semi professional and went away, but.

50:27

non-professional rocketry guy that we've had

50:29

on this show is Steve Gerbertson who

50:32

is a big investor in SpaceX

50:34

and many other things Tesla and so

50:36

forth and his idea of going

50:38

out and flying a hobby rocket as

50:40

Lisa's he described it to me

50:42

was yeah I get my first

50:44

stages by buying surplus cruise missile booster

50:47

stages which I thought was interesting

50:49

I don't think it's as powerful as

50:51

what you're doing but you know

50:53

it's kind of scary when you hear

50:55

it that way. So what kind

50:57

of licensure do you need? Clearances,

50:59

monitoring, is that tough? I mean, we

51:02

know, you know, the pains that

51:04

Elon has described with the FAA. I

51:06

assume you're less stringent, but still,

51:08

you're going high. A lot of airplanes

51:10

can be up there. Yeah, exactly.

51:12

The license, the main license that

51:14

we need is the FAA. They give

51:17

a... certificate of authorization, you know,

51:19

for you to fly, however high you

51:21

say you're going to fly. They,

51:23

you know, they give, we give them

51:25

details on the rocket on where

51:27

we predict it's going to land, how

51:30

high it's going to go, and

51:32

yeah, they have to approve it,

51:34

we have to send them all the,

51:36

all of our. like data and

51:38

stuff like that. And then the other

51:41

group we have to work with

51:43

is really just a Bureau of Land

51:45

Management who owns the Black Rock,

51:47

or who like, you know, oversees

51:49

the Black Rock Desert. So we need

51:51

a land permit from them and

51:53

we need a flight permit from the

51:56

FAA. And then once we have

51:58

the flight permit from the FAA, then

52:00

we go and talk to air

52:02

traffic control and we're like, hey,

52:04

I'm gonna be launching. on this day,

52:06

can you set up a no-fly

52:08

zone around our launch site so that,

52:11

you know, no planes come in?

52:13

But then, as it turns out, people

52:15

ignore the no-fly zone a lot

52:17

of the time, so then we have

52:19

to wait until the airplanes are

52:21

out of our space before flying.

52:23

Not even the students are safe from

52:26

the pictures, right? You wouldn't want

52:28

to hit one of those Jersey drones.

52:30

I know. Now showing up over

52:32

the California and Oregon. We don't know

52:34

what's causing them. Oh, stop, stop,

52:36

stop, stop. Can I, can I

52:38

jump in here? I want to say

52:41

something about, I want to say

52:43

something about Jordan Noon, who was the

52:45

head of rocket lab at the

52:47

time they did the first space shot.

52:49

So in addition to doing the

52:51

engineering lead stuff, and there was

52:53

a lot of stuff that only Jordan

52:56

could do, reprogramming stuff over a

52:58

weekend and anyway. But one of the

53:00

things that he actually did was

53:02

because it was the first space shot.

53:05

he actually had to get the

53:07

bureaucratic infrastructure going. He was the guy

53:09

who talked to the Bureau of

53:11

Land Management and talked to the

53:13

FAA and this was a new thing

53:15

for them because student groups don't

53:17

normally get permits to go to space.

53:20

So he had to figure all

53:22

that stuff out. But ever since that

53:24

time, the students have made sure

53:26

to to kind of keep up

53:28

the politics and when new students graduate

53:30

or the FAA guy retires and

53:32

the new one comes along, they make

53:35

sure to renew the... the relationship

53:37

and you know send along a case

53:39

of a of a whiskey or

53:41

whatever it might be to keep

53:43

the relationship up. Which is not bribery

53:45

it's simply encouragement. No it's not

53:47

working. I'm working. You know I have

53:50

to ask both as as like

53:52

a supervisor as a as a teacher

53:54

Dan and as a student about

53:56

the dangers involved in in this kind

53:58

of rocketry, I was stunned just

54:00

in finding out that, you know,

54:02

hobbyists, that that. like folks like the

54:05

Joe Barnards and whatnot on YouTube,

54:07

are making solid propellant in their garages,

54:09

you know, and those types of

54:11

things. And it seems to me that

54:13

when you're actually talking about rocket

54:15

science with these students and making

54:17

their own propellants, that there's some inherent

54:20

dangers that you have to set

54:22

up safety guidelines for. and appropriate safeguards

54:24

and you know what what are

54:26

like the dangers involved or is it

54:29

as easy as ordering a fuel

54:31

from the internet but Ryan you

54:33

mentioned that you came up with a

54:35

new picture so I'm just curious

54:37

what how dangerous is it to put

54:39

this stuff together and then and

54:41

then make sure that no one you

54:44

know makes a mistake a pretty

54:46

costly one okay first of all the

54:48

The solid propellant itself is not

54:50

just stuff you can casually mix

54:52

in your kitchen. One of the key

54:54

elements, for example, is powdered aluminum.

54:56

You don't think of aluminum as something

54:59

that burns, but that's because it's

55:01

big and doesn't have much surface area.

55:03

When you grind it up into

55:05

a tiny powder, tens of microns,

55:07

then it has so much surface area,

55:09

it's actually an explosive. And you

55:11

can't just buy it without a permit

55:14

from bureau tobacco and firearms. powdered

55:16

aluminum. Yeah, so powered aluminum is the

55:18

stuff that actually burns in the

55:20

rocket propellant. And then to go

55:22

along with that you need an oxidizer

55:24

and the kind of oxidizer that's

55:26

needed is kind of like what what

55:29

was the guy's name Timothy McVeigh.

55:31

who blew up the building in Oklahoma

55:33

City. Yeah. He filled his Pinsky

55:35

truck with our rider truck, I forget,

55:37

with a whole bunch of fertilizer.

55:39

It's basically the same stuff. So

55:41

basically you mix powder aluminum and oxidizer

55:44

and something to hold it together,

55:46

a binder, and that makes. something kind

55:48

of liquid, kind of doughy like,

55:50

and it has to be mixed and

55:53

cast, and then it becomes solid.

55:55

And this cannot be done, well,

55:57

okay, it can be done by yourself

55:59

in your kitchen, but it's very

56:01

dangerous. In fact, the Rock Lab students

56:03

do it under professional supervision at

56:05

a company that does this for a

56:08

living. The company is called X

56:10

Squadron. There's a lot of driving

56:12

involved, because they're way out of Victorville.

56:14

So the students have to put

56:16

a ton of miles on their cars.

56:18

going on. Even though we do

56:20

it under like supervision, a lot of

56:23

people always try to nitpick us

56:25

and be like, well, okay, you're just

56:27

buying the motor then, right? But

56:29

it is still like our formula

56:31

and it's supervised, but all of our

56:33

students we send out about a

56:35

dozen students and they're the ones actually

56:38

doing the mixing. It's mostly a

56:40

safety thing that we, you know, we

56:42

go out there and we just

56:44

want to be, you know, safe

56:46

and professional about it while still getting

56:48

the learning experience. That's what we

56:50

do. And like Tanner and said, it

56:53

involves a lot of driving. Is

56:55

it like a certification that you need

56:57

then? Like do you have to

56:59

be raided to be able to

57:01

handle that stuff? Or is it the

57:03

supervision is what lets you, what

57:05

lets you, you know, proceed, you know,

57:08

because everyone knows what the safety

57:10

requirements are or the protocols are? Well,

57:12

the, the supervision has to be

57:14

done by a licensed pyrotechnic operator. and

57:17

that's what that's part of what

57:19

the professional company provides as well

57:21

as the the appropriate equipment for making

57:23

sure that if anything goes wrong

57:25

the the any any fires or explosions

57:27

can be can be contained by

57:29

the way the solid motor once it's

57:32

completed the solid itself is not

57:34

that dangerous you can take a

57:36

piece of it in your hand you

57:38

can light it with a lighter

57:40

it just kind of sparkles a little

57:42

bit but on the other hand

57:44

if it gets hot and under the

57:47

presence of of high pressure atmosphere,

57:49

then it burns very rapidly. That's

57:51

a whole different story. That's kind of

57:53

like the weird thing about plastic

57:55

explosives, the C4, that you can actually...

57:57

that eat it, light it on

57:59

fire, use it to cook your dinner,

58:02

just don't put a blast of

58:04

cap in it. You know, Tark, it's

58:06

funny, I'm having trouble visualizing this

58:08

from everything you've told me about

58:10

your time at USC. I have this

58:12

picture of students in their Maybox

58:14

and Bugatti's and Aston Martin's driving out

58:17

to Victoriaville to pick up the

58:19

rocket. Does it still like that or

58:21

have we kind of rounded the

58:23

curve into... more normal. What is

58:25

it still the university of spoiled children?

58:27

Is that what you're asking? I

58:29

say that. I'm just saying I'm just

58:32

I'm getting that vibe. I'm getting

58:34

that vibe. I don't know. I think

58:36

Ryan and Dan are probably better.

58:38

You know, I was at USC

58:40

back in what? When did we go

58:43

to the conference? Was that last

58:45

year? Right. The we were back there.

58:47

I was on campus and it's

58:49

so much different now than it was

58:51

when I was there in, you

58:53

know, you know, 2000. What? Dan, where

58:56

did you go to go to

58:58

college? If I may ask. I

59:00

was an undergraduate in the late 70s.

59:02

I graduated in 1981 and then

59:04

I went to to grad school in

59:06

the from 82 to 86. My

59:08

wife laughs at me because all this

59:11

stuff from the 80s. I don't

59:13

even know about it because I

59:15

was busy being a PhD student. So

59:17

represent. So I started that UCLA

59:19

in 74. was invited to stop attending

59:21

in 77. Invited. Invited. I like

59:23

that. I had racked up too many

59:26

units and I was taking so

59:28

many classes, they said, you're not

59:30

going to be able to graduate the

59:32

way you're going. I was like,

59:34

but what do you mean? I can't

59:36

say, I didn't realize that if

59:38

you hit a maximum number of units,

59:41

they just said, you're out of

59:43

here, we got other students who want

59:45

to come in and actually finished

59:47

up. But I took a lot

59:49

of classes, which is really cool. And

59:51

speaking of taking things, we're gonna

59:53

take one more break and we'll be

59:56

right back in Tarak, you're up.

59:58

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1:00:59

I I had a question and Dan you

1:01:01

of mentioned this early on but

1:01:03

what the atmosphere is like is

1:01:06

like of these launches. You mentioned that the students go

1:01:08

on out. You had that the folks

1:01:10

there, 130, I think Ryan said,

1:01:12

like a and that they camp there 130

1:01:14

I think that paints a picture to

1:01:17

me. camp and whatnot and that

1:01:19

paints a picture me of like

1:01:21

a burning man atmosphere like around around

1:01:23

that will hopefully go

1:01:25

go to space and

1:01:27

so and so You know know, I know

1:01:29

that. is a student is a student

1:01:31

project as a student club. and I'm And

1:01:34

I'm wondering what that atmosphere

1:01:36

that like is like, cause it's very high

1:01:38

high stuff that you, you want to

1:01:40

go. well you have to you have to make

1:01:42

sure that everything is set up properly, up but...

1:01:44

but. you're out there in the the desert

1:01:46

know is know, is it a a bunch

1:01:48

of campers, is it it tense you know everyone

1:01:50

know, everyone has to bring their

1:01:52

food. what is that like to kind of have that that

1:01:54

of have that and then then what's it

1:01:56

like on launch date date you're gonna

1:01:58

go to space? to space Well,

1:02:02

yeah, it's, Dr. Owen could give you kind of what it

1:02:04

could give you kind of what

1:02:06

it might have used to be

1:02:09

like. I wasn't there in the

1:02:11

old times, say, I would say. his

1:02:14

preface his story we've probably probably got

1:02:16

a lot more boring than it, than

1:02:18

how it might have been at

1:02:20

other days because we want it

1:02:22

to go well we want curious

1:02:24

to hear what stories he has

1:02:26

curious to hear what stories well. he

1:02:28

has. I think think he's censoring right

1:02:30

now in his head. He's let's see

1:02:32

what I want to tell. what go

1:02:35

ahead. to tell? Sorry, go ahead. Well, okay. There's

1:02:37

two parts. There's the two parts,

1:02:39

the, the part where, the day, during

1:02:41

the day. are the students are

1:02:43

actually setting things up, doing large

1:02:45

amounts of technical work, work, and

1:02:47

there's the time at night night when there's

1:02:49

campfires and students are sitting around

1:02:52

shooting the breeze. the breeze, and I

1:02:54

I will neither nor nor deny

1:02:56

that there is alcohol consumed at

1:02:58

that time. time. I will say something though about

1:03:00

modern times will say something times.

1:03:02

Years times compared to old

1:03:04

times go to launches, there would ago, when

1:03:06

students would go to launches, work to do,

1:03:08

be a ton of work, last minute

1:03:10

work to do, basically the rocket finished.

1:03:13

were always delays in getting the to finished.

1:03:15

so there's a bunch of work to do

1:03:17

out at the launch site. In recent

1:03:19

years, the students have gotten so much better

1:03:21

with their organization their organization things a bunch of

1:03:23

things which we call systems engineering, which

1:03:25

is is of a long word for

1:03:27

getting things, for planning and getting things

1:03:29

right, that there's much less to

1:03:31

do actually at the launch site. less

1:03:33

So to do actually at the launch rocket with a

1:03:35

little time to spare before their

1:03:37

launch trip this time. with a

1:03:39

little time to spare before their

1:03:41

their I say the right

1:03:44

thing this time so Ryan is that did I say

1:03:46

the said thing or there's you said

1:03:48

the thing is and I yeah

1:03:50

used to probably have more

1:03:52

fun about things, fun about know. you

1:03:54

know because it's a camping trip at the end

1:03:56

of the day, right? the end of the day, right? But then

1:03:59

we realized. like things will

1:04:01

go better. go better if unfortunately,

1:04:03

we we have as much

1:04:05

fun and we do

1:04:07

focus more on we

1:04:09

not messing anything up. messing

1:04:11

anything can can I can deny

1:04:13

that currently we don't do

1:04:15

any drinking and then I and then

1:04:17

we yeah it's a lot of like script

1:04:19

following now we it's a lot of a

1:04:21

following we follow We like a script.

1:04:23

We follow all the correct procedures

1:04:25

for And then it right. And then

1:04:28

there's still a lot of you know. shooting

1:04:30

breeze. There's a soccer ball. People

1:04:32

are playing soccer in their spare

1:04:34

time at this past their spare because

1:04:36

past people, there's not going to

1:04:38

be work for everyone. not going to be work

1:04:40

for it's very exciting. it's very

1:04:42

of course, of the day of launch, once

1:04:45

you've done all the annoying grueling work

1:04:47

all the it go up. work to

1:04:49

see it go I have a question

1:04:51

for both of you. for both

1:04:53

of you. Ryan for the short

1:04:55

the short term Daniel for the

1:04:57

long the long term. future prospects for

1:04:59

the club, future plans, plans

1:05:01

do we see see a Trojan going

1:05:03

on one of your of your rockets

1:05:05

what's trajectory here? here I mean

1:05:08

yeah I'd say the the I mean, yeah,

1:05:10

I'd say the, the big thing we're

1:05:12

working towards right now, I guess there's

1:05:14

kind of two big things we're working

1:05:16

towards. working towards One is is

1:05:18

just continuing to optimize

1:05:20

our rocket's performance. We're We're

1:05:22

making more energetic, a

1:05:24

new propellant formula, a better

1:05:27

better burning geometry. Our structures are

1:05:29

going to be our structures are

1:05:31

gonna be lighter. chance that, even a

1:05:33

chance that, two is eight inches in inches in

1:05:35

diameter. a There's a very strong

1:05:37

chance we could make a rocket work

1:05:39

and go to space of six

1:05:41

inches in diameter with all of

1:05:43

our optimizations. But then

1:05:45

the other thing, and other

1:05:47

more the probably you know,

1:05:49

forward you know, forward-thinking thing that we're

1:05:51

going towards so we're gonna

1:05:53

be launching. to be you

1:05:55

know, you know, of scientific

1:05:58

research devices. research devices. Currently,

1:06:01

we're mostly testing the infrastructure for that.

1:06:03

We're not going to do any

1:06:05

of it in the immediate future. immediate future.

1:06:07

Like on a flight that we're planning for this

1:06:09

April, actually, we're going to be

1:06:12

deploying a little capsule. a It looks

1:06:14

like a mini it looks like a -entry capsule,

1:06:16

like a dragon capsule, the capsules they

1:06:18

would use in the Apollo days. And

1:06:20

it's going to come down after going

1:06:22

to and then fall down on its

1:06:24

own. and then fall down on its own. so

1:06:26

that that... maybe in the future, we

1:06:28

could put some some control on it or

1:06:30

something that allows it to point at.

1:06:32

point at a certain certain star or whatever

1:06:35

somebody wants to do research with.

1:06:37

kind of the kind of the exciting

1:06:39

future because not only would we then

1:06:41

be the only student group to

1:06:43

have reached space, but then we'd

1:06:45

be the only non then we supplier

1:06:47

of, you know, space payload slots. payload

1:06:49

slots. You you know he looks He

1:06:51

looks lower lower mass than either of

1:06:53

us, but I think we'd both volunteer

1:06:55

to go to go. Sorry your turn. I

1:06:57

didn't mean to I your answer mean

1:07:00

to usurp your answer. Big picture.

1:07:02

Well, yes, the idea of Yes,

1:07:04

the idea of launching scientific payloads, I

1:07:06

think, is is an exciting thing, because... thing

1:07:09

because a big a big role

1:07:11

for for for scientific experiments

1:07:13

that go up that go

1:07:15

up space. into space and and

1:07:17

the... If you you have hundreds of millions or

1:07:19

billions of dollars to spend, then you

1:07:21

do it on a spacecraft that orbits

1:07:24

and might have a mission duration of of 10

1:07:26

years or more. if But if you a lot

1:07:28

a lot less and a much smaller a

1:07:30

much smaller experiment, can be on the

1:07:32

you can. called a be on the tip

1:07:34

of what's called a sounding rocket, which is

1:07:36

something that goes just just up into space and

1:07:38

then back down again, like the lab vehicles

1:07:40

do. do. And once you're Once you're above the boundary

1:07:42

of space, you're outside the atmosphere you you can

1:07:44

do the kinds of experiments that that... where you

1:07:46

don't have the the intervening So you can do

1:07:48

so you can do you can look at the sun,

1:07:50

you can do all kinds of things that

1:07:52

can do cannot do from the ground. you cannot

1:07:54

do from the ground. with the advances

1:07:57

in miniaturization of electronics. there's...

1:08:00

There's good science you science do

1:08:02

do with a very

1:08:04

tiny payload. Now at the Now at

1:08:06

the moment, it would be risk

1:08:08

factor would be

1:08:10

intolerable intolerable because the,

1:08:12

you a success ratio well up

1:08:15

into the well up into the 90% in

1:08:17

order to be insurable

1:08:19

and be spending your

1:08:21

money well. Right now,

1:08:23

money well. Right shots launch vehicle space

1:08:25

shots have a, we're at what, 25 or

1:08:27

30% of things. so there's a

1:08:29

little story there about story

1:08:31

there about prior efforts, huh? Well,

1:08:33

in the video you In the

1:08:35

video showed a showed a of a sequence

1:08:37

of missions all the way

1:08:40

from 2006 all the way up, up.

1:08:42

They were they were mostly successes or

1:08:44

partial successes. You You did

1:08:46

show Traveler 1, One, which which didn't talk about

1:08:48

it at the time, but it it blew

1:08:50

up. there have been blew up. And there

1:08:52

have been a lot of failures. of

1:08:54

And the majority of motors that

1:08:56

are tested on the ground, the majority

1:08:58

of rockets that go up, of rockets that

1:09:01

go up, they result in big fireballs and

1:09:03

pieces go everywhere. But the cool thing

1:09:05

about this, said as a it's often said

1:09:07

as a more from learn more from

1:09:09

failure than successes. the But for the lab,

1:09:11

that's really true. It's It's kind of

1:09:13

a joy to see kind of a letdown when

1:09:15

of a some when there's some kind

1:09:17

of failure or explosion. but on But

1:09:19

on the other hand, the students go, they

1:09:21

find everything, they all the all the pieces.

1:09:23

pieces. They they diagram it an airliner

1:09:26

crash site, they figure out what

1:09:28

happened. And every single time,

1:09:30

within a few within a few days, they out

1:09:32

what happened and they move on from

1:09:34

it and fix whatever went wrong. fix

1:09:37

whatever went wrong. Yeah, like, know,

1:09:39

Traveler 4 is the one that

1:09:41

worked worked 2 is the one

1:09:43

that worked. the That might make

1:09:45

you what happened to you what 2,

1:09:47

and 3 and then to

1:09:49

Aftershock 1, then 2, After Shock 1, which is

1:09:51

none of them worked. worked. So,

1:09:53

it's like, like you like he said,

1:09:55

it's not even a cliche. cliche.

1:09:57

We learn the most about about engineering.

1:10:00

when one of our things doesn't work, work,

1:10:02

we kind of how stupid we might've

1:10:04

been and then we fix that. then we fix

1:10:06

that. Well, just so it's so it's I'm sure

1:10:08

I'm sure, knows all about this, but I

1:10:10

wrote a book years ago that included

1:10:12

a chapter about the development of the

1:10:14

F1, of the F1, F1 engine

1:10:16

for the Saturn V, for big

1:10:18

1 V, big one point fill, a five million beast. beast.

1:10:20

And I don't remember the exact

1:10:22

number, but I think the number

1:10:24

of the destroyed in the development of

1:10:27

that thing was something of in

1:10:29

the was sixties. in the 50s or 60s. would just

1:10:31

fire this thing up, tremendous thrust, huge

1:10:33

exhaust plume, it would shake and it would

1:10:35

shake itself to death and explode, you know,

1:10:37

and, you know, the engineers rules slide their

1:10:39

and their mechanical pencils and stuff would

1:10:41

go stumbling around the field and pick

1:10:43

up the smoking pieces and say, and looks

1:10:45

like this one like that one did. before

1:10:47

that one got ahead of it ahead of it

1:10:49

by... putting explosive charge in it so

1:10:51

that they could decide when to

1:10:53

start the acoustic the acoustic the engine. that was

1:10:55

see, you're way ahead of the

1:10:58

curve. It only took you four or

1:11:00

five. of the curve. It only took you

1:11:02

four or five. Mark, I just, you know,

1:11:04

last asked that question yeah, what's ahead

1:11:06

for the club asked I'm just

1:11:08

curious. about, like, what's want. club?

1:11:11

And to get involved,

1:11:13

either future students, current

1:11:15

students, or students, someone

1:11:17

to support. you know, the club

1:11:19

like how how can they how can they

1:11:21

get involved you know help raise funds

1:11:23

to kind funds all these these all

1:11:26

of these imagine you I to have to build

1:11:28

the to build the rockets themselves. know what

1:11:30

would you send people to try to

1:11:32

get involved with the club? with the

1:11:34

club? Okay to to begin with I would be

1:11:36

To begin with, I would be remiss if

1:11:39

I didn't give a shout out to the of

1:11:41

the School of of the School of Engineering because

1:11:43

they've actually been dominant in funding the Rocket

1:11:45

Lab all these years. lab all these years and

1:11:47

We do do get a fair number of

1:11:49

donations. from companies,

1:11:51

so like Boeing and like Boeing and Lockheed

1:11:53

and Places will give us a few thousand

1:11:55

dollars few every year or two. every

1:11:58

year or two. And if you... As you

1:12:00

might expect, it's actually quite easy

1:12:02

to funnel your browsing toward giving

1:12:04

to USC. They work as hard

1:12:07

as they can to make sure

1:12:09

it's an easy thing to do.

1:12:11

So if you just Google give

1:12:13

to USC or something similar, you'll

1:12:15

be directed to a site where

1:12:17

you can find all sorts of

1:12:20

places to direct your money and

1:12:22

you can endow scholarships. There's all

1:12:24

sorts of line item things and

1:12:26

the rocket lab is there. You

1:12:28

can say, I want to support

1:12:30

USC rocketry. and you can you

1:12:33

can give money. Yeah. Tark is

1:12:35

an alarm. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

1:12:37

I was just going to say

1:12:39

to make it even easier on

1:12:41

USCRPL.com. We have a link for

1:12:43

that. There you go. There you

1:12:46

go. There you go. Excellent. Tark

1:12:48

is an alum. You need to

1:12:50

get this week in space on

1:12:52

that donor page. That's right. And

1:12:54

then you asked about like students

1:12:56

getting involved, maybe. And I mean,

1:12:59

yeah, anybody. if you're listening to

1:13:01

this and you're, you know, applying

1:13:03

to colleges, you're going to be

1:13:05

applying to colleges. Unfortunately, the only

1:13:07

barrier to entry to entry to

1:13:09

being in this club is being

1:13:12

a student at USC. I wish

1:13:14

I could admit students directly to

1:13:16

the club, obviously, because there's a

1:13:18

lot of people who reach out

1:13:20

to me who want to join

1:13:22

and they're passionate about it, but

1:13:25

then, yeah, just, USC is a

1:13:27

great place to be and we're

1:13:29

happy to have you if you're

1:13:31

here here. Right? So, that's great.

1:13:33

That's great. Thanks so much. Well,

1:13:35

I want to thank everybody for

1:13:38

joining us for another episode, episode

1:13:40

140 of This Week in Space,

1:13:42

entitled The University Rocketeers. Gentlemen, I

1:13:44

think you've mentioned already, but one

1:13:46

more time, where's the best place

1:13:48

online to keep up with your

1:13:51

spectacular efforts? Instagram, USCRPO, and then

1:13:53

USCRPO.com, our website. Okay,

1:13:55

and Daniel, do you have any other work

1:13:57

you're doing that would be of interest? I'm

1:13:59

sure you do. Oh, I have bits of

1:14:02

research progress, research projects here and there, but

1:14:04

they would take too long to even say

1:14:06

what they were and you would be bored

1:14:08

at the end, so I won't even go

1:14:11

there. Okay, we'll just bring you on again

1:14:13

so we can talk about that. Tarak, where

1:14:15

can we find you playing with playing with

1:14:17

the toy rockets these days? Well, you can

1:14:20

find me at space.com as always on the

1:14:22

X as well at Tarak J. Malag also

1:14:24

on Blue Sky now, but I have to

1:14:26

figure out how to learn how to use

1:14:29

that. So it's a whole new thing. And

1:14:31

then, you know, the big big thing that

1:14:33

we're looking for is like the holiday season

1:14:35

getting ready. for Christmas in space. Product placement.

1:14:38

All that fun thing. You've got two weeks

1:14:40

of product placement to look forward to. And

1:14:42

of course, speaking of that, you can find

1:14:44

me at pilebooks.com, at Astor Magazine.com, or at

1:14:47

the National Space Society at Innoces.org, where you

1:14:49

can buy Christmas memberships in our organization. which

1:14:51

will get you among many other things copies

1:14:53

of the wonderful magazine I put together a

1:14:56

recorder. And we should do an article on

1:14:58

these USC guys. Make sure to drop us

1:15:00

a line at TWST.TV if you have complaint

1:15:02

suggestions, comments, love sonnets, whatever you want to

1:15:05

send, jokes, please. And we love getting them

1:15:07

and Tarak will answer all the emails because

1:15:09

I've been doing it for two years. New

1:15:11

episodes this podcast published every Friday on your

1:15:14

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1:15:16

give us thumbs up flying rockets whatever you

1:15:18

want icon just to tell the world that

1:15:20

you love us and speaking of love don't

1:15:23

forget we're counting on you. We're counting of

1:15:25

love don't forget we're counting on you the

1:15:27

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1:15:29

Twit and Twis. You'll help keep us on

1:15:32

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1:15:34

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1:15:36

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1:15:38

available there, which I won't talk about this

1:15:41

time, for just $7 a month. You can't

1:15:43

even... a crash rocket for $7 a month.

1:15:45

So look into it. And for a limited

1:15:47

time, if you refer to new subscribers, you

1:15:50

get free time for your own club Twitter

1:15:52

subscription. I think that's how it works. And

1:15:54

you've heard Leo talking about how important this

1:15:56

is to the organization. So please step up

1:15:59

and be counted. You can also follow the

1:16:01

Twitter tech podcast network at Twitter and on

1:16:03

Facebook at Twitter.TVuit.com. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

1:16:05

It's been a real treat, talking to you.

1:16:08

Dan boundless admiration for your work and administrating

1:16:10

this thing because I'm sure that's not easy.

1:16:12

And Ryan, congratulations for the accomplishment for you

1:16:14

and your team, your large team. And what's

1:16:17

that? I hear a little birdie saying something

1:16:19

about a future job at SpaceX. Double congratulations.

1:16:21

That's about as cool as it gets. And

1:16:23

by the way. I haven't gotten a tour

1:16:26

down there for seven years. So once you're

1:16:28

there, please put in a good word. Me

1:16:30

too. Me too. I never got one. It's

1:16:32

been 20. If you're willing to go to

1:16:35

Texas, then that's where you'll find me. But

1:16:37

lots of our members are in Hawthorne too.

1:16:39

Yeah, be careful. Are you going to Star

1:16:41

Base? Or are you going to Brex? six

1:16:44

months a year. See Tark and I have

1:16:46

this long-held fantasy. No, I have this long-held

1:16:48

fantasy that Tark and I, this is starting

1:16:50

to sound kind of weird. Yeah, I don't

1:16:53

know where you're going with this, right? No,

1:16:55

we're going to red a condo down there

1:16:57

is our executive editor-in-chiefs retreat so we can

1:16:59

go see launches and drink and, you know,

1:17:02

stare at the birds or whatever, because, you

1:17:04

know, we run these two publications and they

1:17:06

should pay for that. Yeah, the beach is

1:17:08

nice there. The beach, the Boca Cica beach

1:17:11

is very nice. So, so we'll be looking

1:17:13

for you, we'll be looking for you Ryan

1:17:15

out there. So, it's a fun place to

1:17:17

be. Thanks very much. much.

1:17:20

Oh, the way, the way? Does,

1:17:22

does, is there like a

1:17:24

viewing range for the

1:17:26

public you're you do

1:17:29

with these things or

1:17:31

is it a closed

1:17:33

range? range? For USC? For your, your test

1:17:35

launches, yeah. I launches, don't really hope

1:17:38

to have a mean, of, we

1:17:40

don't really hope to

1:17:42

have a lot of

1:17:45

people attention, but technically

1:17:47

people could come. know, we

1:17:49

it's really just, you

1:17:51

know, we go out

1:17:54

to the desert, we

1:17:56

do our own camping it's

1:17:58

It's in the middle

1:18:00

of nowhere. nowhere, yeah. So it's

1:18:03

not, there's not like

1:18:05

a little like a little corral.

1:18:07

you go to a

1:18:09

press conference, a press conference they've

1:18:12

got this enormous facility

1:18:14

this they cram a

1:18:16

hundred journalists they space. It's

1:18:18

about 30 feet by

1:18:21

30 feet it's their

1:18:23

elbows pinned in. You

1:18:25

guys should do the

1:18:27

same thing to set

1:18:30

up a You guys up.

1:18:32

Be a whole desert thing

1:18:34

to set up a square foot

1:18:36

of like Like a And

1:18:39

they could sell souvenirs.

1:18:41

foot of like ropes. And they we're

1:18:43

sell souvenirs. The Atari could buy would

1:18:45

buy a hat with

1:18:48

a little rocket sticking

1:18:50

out of it. I

1:18:52

know he would. out of it,

1:18:54

I know you are. Okay, need

1:18:57

to let you get

1:18:59

back. I need to let you you

1:19:01

get back to what I'm going to do don't know

1:19:03

what I'm going to do with

1:19:05

you, day. Thank you day. Thank you very

1:19:07

much for joining us. It's been a

1:19:09

pleasure. We'll see you again. We'll see

1:19:11

you. Thank you. Thank care. care. Now

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