0:00

Evolving your brain is possible. There's a

0:02

lot of people that say, people never

0:04

change, blah blah blah, bullshit. You can

0:06

absolutely change your brain at a core

0:09

level and become the way you want

0:11

to become. Hey there, I'm Matt Diavella

0:13

and welcome to my short form podcast,

0:15

Three Rules. Each episode I ask a

0:18

guest to share three rules that help

0:20

them find success and happiness. Today I'm

0:22

joined by Jack Conti, musician, creator, and

0:25

CEO of Patreon, the platform that's helped

0:27

thousands of artists and creators build sustainable

0:29

businesses. From co-founding Patriot to leading a

0:31

band and creating his own content, Jack

0:34

has spent his career pushing the boundaries

0:36

of creativity, entrepreneurship, and what it means

0:38

to make a living as an artist.

0:40

Yeah, let's jump right into it. What's

0:42

rule number one for you? Rule one, be

0:45

the pilot in command. This is something

0:47

I learned from paragliding. I started paragliding

0:49

about four years ago. I love paragliding.

0:51

You're up in the air by yourself

0:53

with a thing that kind of looks

0:55

like a parachute, but it's a little

0:57

thinner and a little longer, and you're

0:59

sometimes 2,000 feet in the air, more.

1:01

I was in Columbia last year inside

1:04

a cloud. you know, paragliding by myself,

1:06

literally in a cloud, they call it

1:08

the white room, because everything turns white

1:10

and you can't see shit and you're

1:12

in a cloud up a mile

1:14

in the sky by yourself.

1:16

It's pretty insane. And there's

1:18

a concept in paragliding, I

1:20

think with flight in general,

1:23

called the pilot in command.

1:25

And what this means is, like

1:27

if you're learning to

1:29

paragliding, you're too far south.

1:31

turn and go north because

1:34

you're coming out of the

1:36

lift band. So turn and go

1:38

north. Now at that point, if

1:40

you turn and go north and

1:43

you hit a tree or you hit

1:45

rotor or wind that has a

1:47

lot of sink and you crash

1:49

and you break your back or

1:52

whatever, that's your fault,

1:54

not your instructor's

1:56

fault. And it's

1:59

counterintuitive. because you say,

2:01

oh, the instructor told me to

2:03

do that. I'm following instruction. But

2:05

when you're paragliding, if you make a

2:08

mistake, your instructor doesn't die.

2:10

You do. You are the pilot in

2:12

command. Your decisions are your own,

2:14

and you are the only person to blame

2:16

or to celebrate for your success

2:18

or your failure in the air.

2:20

You suffer the consequences of your

2:22

own actions. And they drill this

2:24

into you when you're learning to

2:26

paraglide, because it's so important, right?

2:29

We're talking about life and death

2:31

here, if you're 200 feet in the

2:33

sky. They drill this concept into you, or

2:35

at least my instructors drilled

2:37

it into me. And there's a way

2:39

to extrapolate, of course, beyond paragliding,

2:42

into your life. Nobody controls

2:44

my tongue, but me. Nobody controls my

2:46

tongue, but me. Nobody controls my

2:49

tongue, but me. Nobody controls my

2:51

tongue, but me. I say what I

2:53

want to say. My body

2:55

is my ship, and I

2:57

am the pilot in

2:59

command. I can't blame

3:01

anything on anyone. It

3:04

is on me. My choices

3:06

are my own to make. I

3:08

have agency. If you

3:11

start thinking about my

3:13

life like that, it is

3:15

painful and hard,

3:18

and it creates conflict.

3:21

But for me, it's

3:23

created profound happiness

3:25

and enjoyment of life,

3:28

because I'm not betraying

3:30

myself anymore. I'm not

3:33

doing what other people want

3:35

me to do. And there's

3:37

a wonderful book called

3:40

The Courage to be

3:42

Disliked. That's sort of

3:44

about Adlerian psychology.

3:47

And it's a book that's sort of

3:49

written in narrative form, almost like a

3:51

socratic dialogue between a pupil and a

3:53

student. One of the things that this

3:55

book talks about is the separation of tasks.

3:57

What is your task and what is my

3:59

task? I'll give you an example of

4:01

that. Hypothetically, if you decide

4:04

you don't want to go to college,

4:06

you want to be a creator, you

4:08

want to be a musician, you don't

4:10

want to go to grad school,

4:12

you want to be a musician.

4:14

This actually isn't hypothetical for me.

4:16

This is what I did. And

4:18

suppose somebody else, maybe somebody

4:20

you love, is disappointed by

4:23

this decision. One way to think

4:25

about it, you disappointed them, is

4:27

that you disappointed them. Another

4:31

way to think about it

4:33

is that disappointment is

4:35

not in you and not because

4:37

of you. That disappointment

4:39

is in them. That

4:41

disappointment is their suffering,

4:43

not your responsibility.

4:46

You don't cause someone else

4:48

to feel things. The feelings

4:50

exist in them. That's called

4:53

separation of tasks. And

4:55

there's a mind state that you

4:57

can get into where... I do

4:59

the things in the life that are

5:02

true to me, that don't betray who

5:04

I am. And other people may

5:06

have reactions or emotions around

5:08

those things, but those are

5:10

their tasks. Not my tasks.

5:12

That's similar. It's a

5:14

similar concept to being the

5:17

pilot in command. When I've

5:19

started thinking about my life

5:21

that way, my decisions that

5:23

way, even my own emotions.

5:25

I've felt a stronger sense

5:27

of agency. stronger enthusiasm to

5:30

do things and to go

5:32

about my life and make

5:34

decisions and be fast and

5:36

and just a more grounded

5:38

sense of well-being and and

5:40

fun. Do you think that your

5:43

experience running Patreon has

5:45

helped to influence this rule

5:47

a little bit? I imagine working

5:49

for a company or I

5:51

imagine running a company like

5:54

yours. You can't play the blame game.

5:56

If something goes wrong. You have to

5:58

take ownership of it. or else you

6:00

won't be able to adapt and

6:02

change and make the right decisions

6:04

that are going to help course

6:06

correct. Because I imagine you've probably

6:09

made tons of incorrect or wrong

6:11

decisions that maybe didn't lead where

6:13

you thought it was going to

6:15

or didn't lead you in the

6:18

right direction. But if you continue

6:20

to be ignorant to that and

6:22

didn't take responsibility, I imagine eventually

6:25

the house of cars would

6:27

completely fall apart. Hard lessons learned.

6:29

I don't know how to say

6:31

this. The buck stops with me

6:33

as the CEO. It's everything

6:36

in the company is my

6:38

fault. Everything. It's just true.

6:40

I'm the CEO. It's all my fault.

6:43

Every bad thing that happens

6:45

in the market, inside

6:47

the company, outside the

6:49

company, if there's a

6:51

product decision that, you

6:53

know, creators are upset

6:55

about, whatever. It's all my

6:58

fault. It is. Because I

7:00

am the CEO, that's like terrifying.

7:02

It's also incredibly

7:04

empowering. And so has that

7:06

had an influence on my thinking

7:08

about my life? Yes, absolutely. I

7:11

will say, I'm so glad that

7:13

you shared that rule, because I

7:15

think that's just one of the

7:18

most important rules that all of

7:20

us need to take to heart.

7:22

And it's something that I find

7:25

myself often forgetting. Eventually. You need

7:27

to come back to this rule and

7:29

you need to realize that you have

7:31

ownership over your thoughts, your

7:33

feelings, your beliefs. So yeah, thank

7:35

you so much for sharing that.

7:37

Let's keep this thing moving. What's

7:40

rule number two for you? Rule

7:42

number two is actively evolve your

7:44

brain. Around 10 years ago, I had

7:47

to go to cognitive behavioral

7:49

therapy because I had fear of

7:51

flying. I didn't like flying. Are you

7:53

serious? This is crazy. Yeah. I couldn't get

7:55

on a plane. I literally couldn't get on

7:58

a plane. I tried once I had a

8:00

full panic attack meltdown,

8:02

sobbing, unable to

8:04

communicate, navigate the world,

8:06

couldn't get on a plane.

8:09

I developed this fear in

8:11

my mid-20s as my mom

8:13

was dying. My mom died

8:16

from pancreatic cancer. And I

8:18

think something happened to

8:20

my psyche through that stretch

8:22

of my life. It was

8:24

a very difficult battle with

8:26

cancer. And in that period.

8:29

you know, where she struggled

8:31

for about two and a half

8:33

years, I just got this insane,

8:36

deep-seated fear of flying.

8:38

I had never been scared

8:41

of flying before that, so

8:43

it was totally irrational. And

8:45

one day, my wife was

8:47

just like, she like really

8:49

gave it to me straight. She

8:52

was like, Jack, are you gonna

8:54

like, like, when we have kids,

8:56

like, are you gonna... tell them

8:58

dad's too scared to like get on

9:00

an airplane? And I was like, fuck,

9:03

I don't, I don't want to be

9:05

that person. I don't want to, I

9:07

don't want to have that complex.

9:09

I don't want to have that fear.

9:11

And so I went to about 18

9:13

months of cognitive behavioral therapy. And

9:15

I'll skip the details of how

9:17

it works, but it is, it

9:19

takes a long time. It's not

9:21

like programming, but in some

9:24

sense it's like reprogram programming

9:26

your brain. Fear of flying,

9:28

turns out, was like a software module

9:31

in my brain, and I could

9:33

take it out and replace it

9:35

with a different software module.

9:37

And it also turns out, lots

9:39

of things in your life are like

9:41

that. They are little heuristics

9:44

or complexes. Sometimes people

9:46

call them baggage. Psychologists

9:49

sometimes call them complexes.

9:51

But the ideas, they're little

9:54

shortcuts that our brains take.

9:56

There are little patterns that we

9:58

develop over time that how we

10:00

operate in the world. They

10:02

construct these real-time narratives

10:05

and guide our actions. And

10:07

what I realized through this

10:10

cognitive behavioral therapy

10:12

stint is that you can actually

10:15

alter your complexes. You

10:17

can alter the like

10:19

operating system level of your

10:21

brain to have a different approach. and

10:23

narratives about the world and your

10:26

life and yourself. These are projections

10:28

that we make onto the world

10:30

and you can alter the light

10:32

bulb that's making those projections. And

10:35

so I try to do that now. And how do

10:37

I do that? Well, I get really

10:39

clear on what it is that I

10:41

want to alter. And then I like

10:43

market it to myself over a long

10:45

period of time. Like for example, being

10:47

the pilot in command. I was not

10:49

like that my whole life. I was

10:51

kind of wet noodle. for my whole

10:53

life. I'm like easily, like, convinceable, always

10:55

caring about what other people thought

10:57

about every action and over-rotating for,

11:00

you know, if I disappointed people,

11:02

if I made somebody sad or

11:04

like, just like so concerned with

11:06

other people's feelings and wanting people

11:08

to like me and wanting to be

11:11

liked. And I was like so sick

11:13

of being that wet noodle and being

11:15

that person, I didn't want to do

11:17

that anymore. And I wanted to evolve

11:20

that. complex in my brain that

11:22

was so desperate for approval

11:24

and evolve that part of my

11:26

brain that had an external

11:28

sense of authority. What I

11:31

wanted was to develop an

11:33

internal sense of authority. Evolving

11:35

your brain is possible. There's

11:38

a lot of people say people

11:40

never change, blah blah blah. Bull

11:42

shit. You can absolutely change your

11:44

brain at a core level and become

11:47

the way you want to become.

11:49

That is possible. And learning how to do

11:51

that for yourself, it might be different

11:53

for other people. But learning how to do

11:55

it for myself, has been a really important

11:58

piece of my life. Just like me... Like

12:00

I can visually see that change,

12:02

that is unreal. The fact that

12:04

you were so terrified to go

12:07

on a flight that you broke

12:09

down, and then probably

12:11

I guess within a few

12:13

years, you're paragliding by

12:15

yourself through a cloud. Like

12:17

if that doesn't show you

12:19

that anything's possible, I don't

12:22

know what is. Like the fact

12:24

that, yeah, like you said, so

12:26

many of us feel like we

12:28

are fixed. in terms of our

12:30

growth. And I think that that

12:32

belief itself is probably what holds

12:34

people back from changing. They think

12:36

that they're a certain kind of

12:38

person so they will never be

12:40

able to start their own business, start

12:42

a podcast, lose weight, go to

12:44

the gym, get strong. And so

12:46

I think that people need to

12:48

realize how important just doing those

12:50

small things can truly build up

12:52

to huge milestones and, you know,

12:54

huge... personality and behavioral shifts. I'm going

12:57

to be back with the third and

12:59

final rule in a moment, but first,

13:01

one of the ways I'm supporting this

13:03

podcast is through Patreon. By becoming a

13:05

patron, you get access to the full

13:07

unedited episodes of the show. I think

13:10

it's something like over 50% of Listen

13:12

Time is still radio. All of that

13:14

is going to be displaced by pot

13:16

like why we're not going to be

13:18

listening to radio in 25 years. As

13:20

a patron, you also get additional unused

13:22

footage from my YouTube videos. and access

13:25

to a members-only area where you

13:27

can ask me questions for my

13:29

patron exclusive AMA podcast. And most

13:32

importantly, you'll feel good knowing that

13:34

you're supporting a creator you like.

13:36

And really, what other incentive do

13:39

you need? Simply go to patreon.com/Matt

13:41

Diavella to support the show. That's

13:43

patron.com/Matt Diavella. There's a link down

13:46

in the description below. Thanks for

13:48

considering. Let's move on to rule number

13:50

three. What do you got? I remember when I was

13:52

10 years old and I discovered the camera for the

13:55

first time, it was like a scene in the movie

13:57

Ratatui where it like zooms into his face and it's

13:59

like, oh! Like it's just insane, you

14:01

know, I was like this camera is

14:04

the coolest shit I've ever seen in

14:06

my life at the same feeling when

14:08

I discovered the ability to record my

14:11

songs onto a laptop computer I was

14:13

like this is Earthshakingly beautiful and amazing,

14:15

and I'm so excited about this I

14:17

remember showing my work to like some

14:20

audio engineers I knew some like engineers

14:22

at the time because of some work

14:24

that I was doing and they were

14:27

like Dude, that's not real music like

14:29

Digital audio recording, that shit sounds cold,

14:31

that's not warm, that's not analog gear.

14:34

Like you're not using a compressor, like

14:36

you're not, you know, there's no analog

14:38

signal going, like that's all fake music,

14:41

that's like fake recording. Like you want

14:43

to make a record, go to a

14:45

studio, hire an engineer, like use real

14:47

gear, record on tape, tape is much

14:50

warmer and sounds better and like, like,

14:52

these laptops like, have no soul. Like

14:54

you're not making real music. Now that

14:57

turned out to be a metaphor, Matt,

14:59

for basically every time I saw technological

15:01

change in my life. And I was

15:04

reminded of a story that I learned

15:06

years later. I was like, when, in

15:08

like the 20s, when filmmakers... sort of

15:11

discovered that you could record light onto

15:13

celluloid tape and you could make motion

15:15

pictures, not just like pictures, but pictures

15:17

that moved. There started, like filmmakers were

15:20

making early films. The same attitude existed

15:22

back then. People thought this new technology

15:24

was crazy. The real art, the real

15:27

storytelling was happening on Broadway, live, with

15:29

theaters. That was real storytelling. Those were

15:31

real, you know, real plays. Not this

15:34

sort of... fake celluloid technology thing. And

15:36

so those that group of people those

15:38

groups of directors like got together like

15:41

we need some way to like pat

15:43

each other on the back for like

15:45

making great stuff because we think this

15:47

is really good art here and so

15:50

they started this thing called the Oscars

15:52

where they would like celebrate each other's

15:54

movies at the end of the year

15:57

and give each other a statue and

15:59

say great job. you're a real artist,

16:01

that was good. And now, you know,

16:04

80 years later, however long you're, you

16:06

know, however long later, like we all

16:08

think of the Oscars as the mainstream.

16:11

And that's just how life works. What

16:13

the new technology, you know, that sort

16:15

of, that feels cheap to the old

16:17

school, to the people who you did

16:20

it the old way, and who looked

16:22

down on that new way of doing

16:24

it. Those people are loud voices. And

16:27

it's hard to embrace that change. And

16:29

it's scary to embrace that change. But

16:31

every time I've leveraged it and thought

16:34

of it as like, how can I

16:36

use this new technology to help me

16:38

achieve my dreams? And I helped me

16:41

achieve my goals. Every time I've thought

16:43

of it like that, it's been so

16:45

beneficial and helpful to me. And the

16:47

trick is just ignoring the people who

16:50

claim that you're for some reason not

16:52

the real thing for doing it a

16:54

different way. I remember distinctly some of

16:57

the, I guess the the perplexity from

16:59

some of the decisions that I made

17:01

early in my career. I think early

17:04

on as a filmmaker I got very

17:06

lucky and I got my first documentary

17:08

on Netflix which was just like at

17:11

the time probably still is for a

17:13

lot of filmmakers like a huge goal

17:15

and a huge milestone. And then I

17:17

decided I'm going to start making YouTube

17:20

videos. And I just remember a lot

17:22

of people in my life were like,

17:24

what are you doing? Like, why would

17:27

you, why would you, why would you

17:29

go to make YouTube videos? You're going

17:31

backwards, right? Why are you going backwards?

17:34

You're going backwards. Yeah. But I saw

17:36

it as, this is actually me taking

17:38

ownership and control over the things that

17:41

I create, you know, like I can't.

17:43

Wait for for a Netflix to approve

17:45

my next documentary like you can't rely

17:47

on them to give you permission to

17:50

do anything And I just saw an

17:52

opportunity where I'm like I don't I

17:54

don't care if it's like an hour-long

17:57

Documentary or like a one-minute long video

17:59

I just like making videos and I

18:01

want a platform to be able to

18:04

make it. But those voices, I think, to your

18:06

point, can really hold people back from

18:08

making those decisions that are contrarian. Luckily

18:10

for me, and I'm sure for you

18:13

as well, it's like I'm a bit

18:15

of a contrarian, so it's like, like,

18:17

part of me actually enjoys the fact

18:19

that people think that this is insane

18:22

and that I'm doing something completely unexpected.

18:24

But I do think there

18:26

are a lot of people

18:28

out there that are a

18:30

little bit too susceptible to

18:32

the critic and the snob,

18:34

the people that say, you're

18:36

not doing it the right way.

18:38

I think we're going to look

18:40

back, you know, in many years,

18:43

and we're going to realize

18:45

that these new forms of

18:47

art making and

18:49

communication are profound

18:51

moments. for culture and

18:53

storytelling and innovation in how

18:56

we communicate and express ideas

18:58

and express feelings and express

19:00

ourselves. You know, and some of the

19:02

early figures back then who were doing that

19:05

and who maybe took a lot of shit

19:07

from their peers are now kind of

19:09

celebrated as historically important

19:11

artistic innovators. I think

19:13

the same will be true of

19:15

this moment in time. If people want

19:18

to learn more about your work, where

19:20

can we send them? You can search

19:22

for Palmus or Scary Pockets anywhere on

19:25

the internet. I have multiple patron pages

19:27

for all my bands. Just search my

19:29

name or any of my bands and

19:32

you'll see all my stuff. Thanks for

19:34

tuning in to Three Rules. Want to

19:36

see every rule from the show. Get

19:39

the full archive at Matt devela.com/Three Rules.

19:41

For my weekly bite-sized self-development emails where

19:43

I share insightful lessons, practical tips,

19:45

and personal experiments, sign up at

19:48

mattevala.com/newsletter. And if you want to

19:50

learn more about today's guest, check

19:52

out the description for this episode.

19:55

See you next time.