0:10

I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome to the

0:12

to the contrary podcast. We're recording

0:14

this in the midst of a

0:16

growing trade war. Imagine this global

0:18

game of chicken that is leading

0:20

to higher and higher tariffs and

0:23

the prospect of the possibility of

0:25

both inflation and a recession at

0:27

the same time. Meanwhile, Donald Trump

0:29

is assuring the world. I got

0:31

this. Just, you know, keep cool

0:33

because I have a plan. So

0:35

I'm really interested in bouncing this

0:38

off of our guest today. The

0:40

authors of, this is like

0:42

the first big bestseller

0:44

of the 2024 campaign,

0:46

right? This is a

0:48

fight inside the wildest

0:50

battle for the White

0:52

House by Jonathan Allen

0:54

and Amy Parnes. By

0:57

the way, congratulations

0:59

on the book, both of you.

1:01

First of all, welcome to

1:03

the podcast. Jonathan, Amy. Thank

1:06

you. And we were competing

1:08

with like Easter Bunny books

1:10

and a Mel Robin self-help

1:12

book. So like hitting number two

1:14

overall on Amazon is pretty heady

1:17

stuff. We're like super excited to be

1:19

talking with you on the day that

1:21

that happened. Well, I mean, to underline

1:23

that, you know, to be number two

1:25

on Amazon, it means you're ahead of

1:27

about like, what, 27 million other books

1:29

out there in the universe. Yeah, it

1:31

is something like that. So look, I

1:33

want to talk about this book, and

1:35

I have read this book, and I

1:38

told you right before we started this,

1:40

that I was actually surprised, because having

1:42

lived through all of this, what I

1:44

want to subject myself to it again.

1:46

But I read it cover to cover,

1:48

I stayed up past my bedtime, which

1:50

is the highest praise that I can

1:52

give for a book. And I do want

1:54

to talk about that. But I want to

1:56

get your thoughts about this moment that we're

1:59

in right now. In an election, and

2:01

by the way, correct anything that I

2:03

say, that it's an assumption, but in

2:05

an election, a lot of people thought

2:08

turned on the economy, on inflation, that

2:10

we're now seeing the markets in absolute

2:12

turmoil, global chaos. And here we are,

2:15

Donald Trump, you know, in office for

2:17

less than 80 days. So give me

2:19

your thoughts on this moment in light

2:22

of the campaign, because I'm guessing that

2:24

if somebody would have told you... At

2:26

the end of the campaign, as insane

2:29

as it was, and it was the

2:31

wildest campaign in American history, that we

2:33

would be in this wild moment.

2:36

What would you have said? We'll start

2:38

with you, Jonathan. I mean, I don't

2:40

know that I would have predicted

2:42

this exact moment. You referenced the

2:44

possibility of stagflation. And for those

2:46

younger folks who have never lived

2:49

through that before, it's not pretty.

2:51

So I don't know that I would

2:53

have predicted this moment. You know, Trump

2:55

talked about the economy. He talked about

2:57

bringing down inflation. He articulated

3:00

his vision for how to do

3:02

that. I think there were a lot of

3:04

critics who said it didn't add up. He's

3:06

wanted to do tariffs across the board

3:08

tariffs for as long as he has been

3:10

in the public eye, you know, long before

3:12

he ever ran for president. You

3:15

know, people who are more familiar with

3:17

economics than I am, and certainly

3:19

my economics professors in college, when

3:21

it told you that slapping tariffs

3:23

on... pretty much every country on

3:26

pretty much every item would result

3:28

in higher prices for consumers.

3:30

You know that we're we're gonna see I think

3:33

at the same time as you're getting

3:35

higher prices people are losing

3:37

money from their 401ks and if

3:39

you're close to retirement or

3:41

you're in retirement that means

3:44

at the same time prices are going

3:46

up you have less money to buy things

3:48

and that creates... Its own sort

3:50

of negative situation because people become scared

3:52

they become panicked and they certainly start

3:54

spending less Which means that you're gonna

3:57

have less? Economic growth, but this is what Donald

3:59

Trump said was going to do and

4:01

if you don't believe that Donald

4:03

Trump wants to do the things

4:05

he says he does you haven't

4:07

been paying attention and whether that

4:09

is you know whether that is

4:11

tariffs or if it is wanting

4:13

to be president for the rest

4:16

of his life and into someone

4:18

else's lifetime it's because he

4:20

wants that okay Amy your thoughts I

4:22

mean I don't have said it

4:24

any better and on the other

4:26

side you have a democratic party

4:29

that has completely

4:31

fallen down and doesn't

4:33

know what to do with

4:35

itself. You know, trying to

4:38

not be the 2017 resistance,

4:40

but is taking it up

4:43

a notch and is rudderless

4:45

and leaderless and I think

4:48

is trying to just find

4:50

its way. But there is...

4:53

Essentially, Donald Trump is being

4:55

left unchecked right now. I mean, I

4:57

think, my existence, there is

5:00

no real leadership on the other

5:02

side to combat it. And, um, yeah.

5:04

There are, there are some folks like

5:06

James Carville who said, you

5:08

know, you don't need to just,

5:10

you know, sit back and watch

5:12

Donald Trump implode. He's going to

5:15

set himself on fire. Why should

5:17

you interrupt that, right? And given

5:19

what's happening right now. Do the

5:21

Democrats actually need to do anything?

5:23

If the stock market is, it's

5:26

not plunging as you and I

5:28

are speaking, but you know, the

5:30

bond market people are, I

5:32

mean, when people around the world

5:34

say that they're leaving US Treasury

5:37

bonds, which used to be the

5:39

safe harbor, that's a massive red

5:41

light. So do Democrats

5:43

really need to do anything or

5:45

is this thing in a meltdown on

5:48

its own? He can look at what is in

5:50

the collective interests of all the Democrats without

5:52

having the responsibility, and this isn't

5:54

a criticism of them, but he

5:56

doesn't have the responsibility of representing

5:58

constituents who are actually... feeling

6:00

harm. So if you're a member

6:02

of Congress, for example, or your

6:04

governor and your constituents are feeling

6:06

harm, it's very difficult to sit

6:08

back and say nothing for them.

6:10

And at the same time, it's

6:12

in the collective interest of the

6:14

Democrats to get out of the

6:16

way of an importing enemy, as

6:18

Napoleon or Sun-su or anybody else

6:20

for war strategy would tell you.

6:23

And so, you know, I mean,

6:25

I think what the Democrats need

6:27

short term. is the basic pendulum

6:29

shift that you tend to see

6:31

in midterms, right? The president will

6:33

overreach, the voters will decide that

6:35

they don't want him to be

6:37

in control of all three levels

6:39

of power in Washington, and that

6:41

doesn't take a lot from the

6:43

minority other than sort of pointing

6:45

out when the president is overreaching

6:47

or doing something wrong. I think

6:49

for the future for presidential elections,

6:51

they're going to have to do

6:53

it. Come forward with a vision

6:55

for a modern economy in America,

6:57

which they you know They have

6:59

not done Joe Biden did a

7:02

little bit He did the chips

7:04

act some you know things here

7:06

and there, but it wasn't really

7:08

a comprehensive vision for what does

7:10

America look like? 10 years down

7:12

the road 20 years down the

7:14

road, and I think you know

7:16

There are a lot of people

7:18

to argue that Trump's a vision

7:20

for that is absolutely wrong and

7:22

it's leading to the chaos right

7:24

now, but he did articulate a

7:26

vision But certainly in the 1990s

7:28

America. Right, right. The gilded age.

7:30

But there was sort of a

7:32

comprehensiveness to his approach in terms

7:34

of what he was offering. And

7:36

I think the Democrats are going

7:39

to have to figure that out

7:41

long term. How do they stop

7:43

just defending the institutions that they

7:45

care about? Not that they shouldn't

7:47

be defending Social Security, Medicare, abortion

7:49

rights, whatever. How do they really

7:51

pitch that forward into what America

7:53

looks like? We're going to come

7:55

back to that. So, see, so

7:57

I mean, wanted to get your

7:59

thoughts on on whether Democrats actually

8:01

need to do that much right

8:03

now, given the level of the

8:05

chaos. They need to start providing.

8:07

an alternate plan. As John said,

8:09

he can't be just the resistance

8:11

of anti- Trump party. I think

8:13

that is why they fell on

8:15

their faces in November because people

8:18

didn't feel seen as the kids

8:20

say. Voters didn't feel connected to

8:22

what they were offering and they

8:24

need to get back to being

8:26

the party of telegrants and the

8:28

party, you know, that speaks to

8:30

working class. issues and I feel

8:32

like they have lost their way,

8:34

the parties have essentially kind of

8:36

flipped. And a lot of these

8:38

Trump voters that supported him this

8:40

time should really be Democrats. So

8:42

they need to find those voters

8:44

again and speak to them, really

8:46

speak to them. Do you think

8:48

that there is going to be,

8:50

you talked to a lot of

8:52

these Trump voters, and he did

8:54

articulate a vision, and that vision

8:57

was prosperity, it was growth, it

8:59

was low inflation? Do you have,

9:01

I feel like we've been through

9:03

this over and over again over

9:05

the last decade, but Amy, is

9:07

there a subsection though of Trump's

9:09

support that's going to peel off

9:11

because they feel they were misled

9:13

or that they were disillusioned? I

9:15

mean, aren't they, you know, going

9:17

to look at the price of

9:19

eggs and go? Shit, this is

9:21

not what I was told was

9:23

going to happen, my 401k. Well,

9:25

I thought I thought it was

9:27

going to explode. Yeah, it's happening.

9:29

Or is he immune from that,

9:31

I guess is the question. Well,

9:33

I think he is in a

9:36

sense. I mean, as we've all

9:38

predicted that he would employ various

9:40

points, class presidency and one, but

9:42

I do think that. The anger

9:44

is starting to brew as I'm

9:46

hearing from Republicans, Republican strategists, and

9:48

lawmakers who are feeling very antsy

9:50

about this moment, and hearing from

9:52

starting to hear a little bit

9:54

more from their constituents, I think,

9:56

and that is sort of what

9:58

I'm interested in seeing, how Trump

10:00

responds to pressure. the Republican Party

10:02

because he did campaign on the

10:04

economy and he did make things better

10:07

and they are not better at

10:09

the moment. Okay let's talk about

10:11

your book which is the only

10:13

book so far to deliver a

10:15

complete 360 degree view of the

10:17

2024 election. going deep inside the

10:19

behind the scenes from Maralago, the

10:21

Oval Office, and the Vice President's,

10:23

and the Vice President's residence. I

10:25

mean, you know, fight has a

10:27

lot of details. I guess I'm

10:29

going to start with this, because

10:31

we have to get into some

10:33

of the stuff on Biden. I

10:35

got to tell you, I had

10:37

a pretty strong reaction to some

10:39

of the stuff in your book. I'm

10:41

working up to that because I know

10:44

what the reaction is going to be

10:46

to our conversation is going to be

10:48

to our conversation. because I thought I

10:50

knew this campaign pretty deeply inside. There

10:52

were a couple of things were like,

10:55

holy shit, when I read them. What

10:57

was your holy shit moment in reporting

10:59

this book? And Amy, if you have

11:01

a different one, but go ahead. Amy

11:03

has a different one, which I think,

11:06

because for me, there's this incredible moment,

11:08

and I guess it was surprising because

11:10

it was reported in part at the time,

11:12

in very small part, which is when

11:14

Joe Biden finally decides he's going to

11:17

get out of the race, And he hands

11:19

over to Kamala Harris. There's a phone call

11:21

between the two of them. And it was

11:23

reported at the time as Biden calls her,

11:25

tells her he's getting out. She says, are

11:27

you sure? He says yes. And then, you know,

11:30

boom, he decides to endorse her. But

11:32

that's not really what happened. What really

11:34

happened is he calls her and she's got

11:36

her staff is out in the pool

11:38

by the swimming pool, the vice president's

11:40

residence. And they were discussing the very

11:42

topic of like the strategy of how

11:44

they're going to How they're going to get

11:47

in if Biden gets out and they've

11:49

agreed that it's not going to happen

11:51

anytime soon and Biden calls and then

11:53

she beckons for her brother and law

11:55

Tony West and her staff to come

11:57

up and join her in the house and

11:59

Biden's got his top stack was

12:01

on the line and he says he's

12:03

going to get out and she says

12:06

are you sure and he says yes

12:08

and then she says and he says

12:10

I got a statement and she says

12:12

well does it does it endorse me

12:15

and the answer is no and she

12:17

says meanwhile she knows he's got all

12:19

the delegates and Barack Obama and Nancy

12:21

Pelosi have been working behind the scenes

12:23

to put together this open convention idea

12:26

so for her she needs an endorsement

12:28

immediately and she's like She's like, Mr.

12:30

President, are you going to endorse me?

12:32

And he says, you've got my support

12:35

kid. And she's like, well, that's not.

12:37

I mean, she's been in politics long

12:39

enough to know, you've got to use

12:41

the word endorsement. She's like, you've got

12:44

to endorse me, or people are going

12:46

to think that you have no faith

12:48

in me, and I'm not going to

12:50

be able to lock this thing down.

12:53

And he says, well, maybe on Thursday.

12:55

magnanimous act that he thinks he's making

12:57

by stepping out voluntarily when we all

12:59

know we got you know pushed pretty

13:02

damn hard before he stepped out voluntarily

13:04

he's gonna you know compare himself to

13:06

George Washington giving up power and he

13:08

wants to basket in that moment and

13:10

Harris is like he got endorsed me

13:13

they get off the phone like they

13:15

have not resolved this and the two

13:17

camps sort of talk amongst themselves and

13:19

then finally they get back on the

13:22

phone And Biden's team says that Biden

13:24

will endorse her, but it will be

13:26

a separate statement. Meanwhile, Barack Obama is

13:28

literally lining up phone calls to try

13:31

to get people in for the open

13:33

convention. One of them to Jim Clyburn,

13:35

he's got set up for that evening.

13:37

And Clyburn's like hoping that Biden will

13:40

make this announcement and endorse Harris so

13:42

that Clyburn can then endorse Harris before

13:44

he talks to Obama, because he knows

13:46

Obama is going to try to cajole

13:49

him and jaw bone him into doing

13:51

this open convention. I found all that

13:53

super fascinating told for the first time

13:55

in this book when I when I

13:57

started to hear that conversation that back

14:00

and forth my eyes nearly popped. out

14:02

in my head. I was like, man,

14:04

Joe Biden is selfish in this moment,

14:06

you know, doesn't sort of understand the

14:09

importance of, of, you know, endorsing his

14:11

vice president and, and clearly not having

14:13

either the political instincts of what was

14:15

going on or the faith in her,

14:18

but more likely, I think, just kind

14:20

of not getting that it was his

14:22

time to move on. So Amy, what

14:24

was your biggest surprise in reporting in

14:27

this book? You had a different one.

14:29

I mean, we never really see how

14:31

this plays out behind the scenes, but

14:33

what Nancy Pelosi is hearing. And I'm

14:36

not just saying that because this is

14:38

our book that we wrote, but we

14:40

learned a lot. There were a lot

14:42

of holy shit moments. Even starting, we

14:44

start out with Nancy Pelosi watching alone

14:47

in her living room. And the book,

14:49

I mean, we never really see how

14:51

this plays out behind the scenes, but

14:53

what Nancy Pelosi is hearing and thinking

14:56

that night. is fascinating to me. What

14:58

the Democratic Party intelligenceia is thinking and

15:00

hearing that night is so fascinating. But

15:02

I think the biggest bombshell, and I

15:05

don't want to ruin this for anyone

15:07

who is going to read the book,

15:09

but when you get to the and

15:11

you see Kamla Harris go into election

15:14

night and Tim Walsh go into election

15:16

night, and they think they are going

15:18

to win. the feeling there's one line

15:20

in particular in the book we and

15:23

I think this is the biggest bombshell

15:25

but they were essentially gaslit by their

15:27

entire campaign and I'll just leave it

15:29

there. Oh wow. All right so your

15:31

book with I want to focus a

15:34

little bit on on the what you

15:36

have in the book about Joe Biden,

15:38

because one of the things that made

15:40

2024 just so extraordinary is the fact

15:43

you have a sitting president who's running

15:45

for re-election, who would nail down the

15:47

renomination, and then drops out of the

15:49

race after a disastrous debate. There's no

15:52

parallel in American history to anything like

15:54

that. But, and I'm going to just

15:56

your indictment, which when I read it,

15:58

I went, who boy. This is brutal.

16:01

You talked about in the end, Trump

16:03

overcame voters' concerns about his personal flaws.

16:05

By the way, leaving aside the fact

16:07

you have a convicted felon who was

16:10

elected president, the voters overcame concerns about

16:12

his personal flaws. At the same time,

16:14

Democrats struggled to connect with an electorate

16:16

that felt gas lit by Biden's insistence

16:18

that he had delivered economic prosperity and

16:21

his pledge to be a bridge president.

16:23

Here's the one sentence here. He tore

16:25

his party asunder. Leaving destroyed personal relationships

16:27

in his wake as he clung the

16:30

power and when he gave it up,

16:32

he kneecapped Harris by demanding unprecedented loyalty

16:34

from her. That is a brutal indictment

16:36

of Joe Biden. I think a lot

16:39

of people were saying that history is

16:41

going to be very kind of Joe

16:43

Biden. I'm beginning to doubt that that's

16:45

going to be the case. But let's

16:48

talk about his decline. Because this was

16:50

for millions of Americans apparently a huge

16:52

shock when he walked out on that

16:54

debate stage and we found out that

16:57

everything the right wing media had been

16:59

saying about him was true. It was

17:01

a complete disaster. So I guess I

17:03

have to ask you guys, was there

17:05

a conscious cover-up and how long did

17:08

it last and who knew what when?

17:10

Okay, there's a bunch that they're unpacking

17:12

there. But I mean, this is the

17:14

big one because, because I have to

17:17

say that in the days after that

17:19

debate, I felt... as a growing personal

17:21

anger that I had been gaslit, that

17:23

I had been misled about his condition,

17:26

how long had this been going on?

17:28

And I'm not giving anything away here

17:30

because this was, it was off the

17:32

record, but it was reported, I was

17:35

actually in the meeting with some of

17:37

the White House staff and Never Trumpers,

17:39

the Monday after the debate, and I

17:41

have to say that I won't say

17:44

what anybody else said in that meeting,

17:46

but what I said was, I think

17:48

that everybody in this room is underest

17:50

estimating the pure fakitude of what just

17:53

happened. So I want to talk about

17:55

before the debate and after the debate.

17:57

So Jonathan, was there a conscious comment?

17:59

who knew what went. I think it

18:01

was a conscious effort to cover for

18:04

Joe Biden. And the reason that I

18:06

don't use the term cover-up is that

18:08

to me that it connotes a

18:10

criminal conspiracy that I don't

18:12

have evidence for. Was it

18:14

a conspiracy though? Was it

18:16

a conspiracy though to hide

18:18

his condition not just from

18:21

the general public but from

18:23

other people and who apparently

18:25

were also taken by shock? Yes, I

18:27

mean, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, absolutely.

18:29

There was a small circle of White

18:31

House aides who had, you know, frequent

18:34

access to him and, of course,

18:36

family. So the first lady, Mike

18:38

Donovan and Steve Rissetti, who

18:40

were two senior advisors at the

18:43

White House, who was a

18:45

senior advisor at the White

18:47

House, Annie Thomasini and Anthony Bernal,

18:49

who were the personal aides to

18:51

Biden and to Jill Biden for

18:53

years. I mean. They had up close

18:56

contact with Joe Biden. They never

18:58

said to anybody publicly or

19:00

even people lower than them in the White

19:02

House that this was a problem. But they

19:04

saw him. And the reason that we know

19:06

they saw him is because we know people

19:08

who were in the outer rings that saw

19:10

him struggling physically, struggling

19:13

mentally. Sometimes members of Congress, we

19:15

report many of these episodes in

19:17

the book, as you know, Charlie,

19:19

having read it. But you know. He

19:21

didn't recognize Eric Swarl

19:23

at a congressional picnic

19:25

in 2023. Eric Swarls on TV

19:27

about as often as advertisements.

19:30

Right? I mean, like he's on

19:32

TV constantly. And he ran against

19:34

Joe Biden for president in 2020.

19:36

He was one of the Democratic

19:38

primary guys. They fought on

19:41

a debate stage and Biden just

19:43

didn't recognize. So this is 2023. You

19:45

talked in the book about that there

19:47

was maybe a... clear signs of

19:49

decline in early 2024, but

19:52

we're talking now about 2023.

19:54

I mean, how far back

19:57

did it go that people

19:59

saw? Wow, this guy has lost

20:01

something. Either one of you. I

20:03

mean, I think in the lead

20:06

up to the debate, it starts

20:08

to really change. I mean, we

20:10

talked to people who mentioned the

20:12

Swalwell incident and then on from

20:15

where you really really start to

20:17

notice a major decline. You know,

20:19

if he looks, he gets out

20:21

of his limo and he looks

20:24

sort of lost. He can't quite

20:26

follow, you know, what's going on.

20:28

He has a makeup artist, so

20:30

this deals with optics around his

20:32

physical appearance, but a makeup artist

20:35

meets him. First thing that he

20:37

does every morning when he's overseas,

20:39

they bring in this makeup artist

20:41

to completely, you know, of this

20:44

larger narrative about his age and

20:46

about his mental acuity. How wide

20:48

was that circle though? How many

20:50

other people in Hollywood in Congress

20:53

sought and decided to keep it

20:55

to themselves? I think it's a

20:57

I think it's a good question

20:59

Charlie and I think it really

21:01

it's really on a spectrum of

21:04

your proximity to him. Right. If

21:06

you're close to him you see

21:08

it a lot and you decide

21:10

not to say anything. And if

21:13

you see him at a congressional

21:15

picnic once a year, maybe figure

21:17

that was the worst day, you're

21:19

not sure. But this also speaks

21:22

to like the, you know, the

21:24

problem of Joe Biden deciding to

21:26

run for re-election without any conversation,

21:28

without any discussion, like the conversations

21:30

that he had with his staff

21:33

about running for re-election were about

21:35

how he would run for election

21:37

and when he would announce it.

21:39

There was never really a question

21:42

of whether he would run for

21:44

re-election, even though he had... heavily

21:46

to the American people that he

21:48

was going to serve one term.

21:51

So you go back to that,

21:53

that's on him. And then when

21:55

you've got a president seeking re-election,

21:57

anyone who's close to him, who

21:59

tells him that he's making a

22:02

mistake is, anyone who's close to

22:04

him, who tells him that he's

22:06

making a mistake is soon going

22:08

to be cast out of the

22:11

inner circle. And these people care

22:13

about being in the inner circle.

22:15

They spend their whole lives working

22:17

to get to the point where

22:20

they're next to a it was

22:22

me, and I saw that. And

22:24

I saw that. I saw what

22:26

I saw on the debate stage

22:28

behind closed doors with the President

22:31

of the United States. I would

22:33

say, hey, that's the guy with

22:35

his finger on the button. Someone

22:37

needs to boil the whistle. Right.

22:40

Well, I mean, that's the other

22:42

question is, is that the media

22:44

coverage of it, you know, there

22:46

was some coverage of it. But

22:49

I guess the reason I'm... We're

22:51

spending time on this and we're

22:53

going to get blowback. I don't

22:55

know, you probably already gotten it.

22:57

You know, why are you beating

23:00

a dead horse? You know, you

23:02

know, Donald Trump is setting the

23:04

world on fire. But I think

23:06

it's important to keep asking the

23:09

question, how did we get here?

23:11

Because I think that the Biden

23:13

administration had one prime directive, which

23:15

was to keep Donald Trump from

23:18

returning to power. And they clearly

23:20

failed. The central decision was Joe

23:22

Biden's decision to run for re-election,

23:24

to read the midterm elections as

23:26

kind of a green light. But

23:29

how, look, there was a split.

23:31

How did the media do? I

23:33

mean, leaving the political world aside

23:35

and the insiders aside, should the

23:38

media have been more aggressive? in

23:40

reporting on all of this because

23:42

I remember even late into 2024

23:44

there was a lot of coverage

23:47

of the you know fake news

23:49

and the you know attempts basically

23:51

to gloss it over but in

23:53

a year since though of how

23:55

the watchdogs behave. I mean I

23:58

think it's it's unfair to loop

24:00

us all in one bucket for

24:02

a starter. We all I covered

24:04

the president John did as well.

24:07

we all attempted to take various

24:09

stabs at this story so much

24:11

that the White House would often

24:13

push back and push back hard

24:16

and threaten to cut off access

24:18

and everything else. Oh really? I

24:20

mean, oh yeah, it's been... It

24:22

was pretty routine for people to,

24:24

you know, say that our reporting

24:27

is garbage and, you know, how

24:29

dare we accuse the president of

24:31

cognitive decline. There, but I do

24:33

think that there were. There was

24:36

a great deal of reporting from

24:38

myself, from my colleagues, getting at

24:40

this storyline. It's not like anyone

24:42

was asleep at the switch. It's

24:44

not like we weren't to get

24:47

this. But the thing about our

24:49

book is that, you know, once

24:51

they leave office, once they're, the

24:53

floodgates kind of, and people will

24:56

talk about it. get these various

24:58

narratives? Well, I also want to

25:00

introduce another phrase because I'm sure

25:02

that you encountered it as well,

25:05

which was, people aren't going to

25:07

like this, the blue, became known

25:09

as blue magga, which was this,

25:11

this pro-biden group that would attack

25:13

anyone who would raise these questions.

25:16

And this happened. to people that

25:18

I was associated with as well.

25:20

You know, why do you keep

25:22

talking about Biden being well? Why

25:25

do you keep talking about? And

25:27

there was that bubble that was

25:29

a very very tight bubble that

25:31

pushed back against people in the

25:34

media. One of the reasons why

25:36

there wasn't more discussion, I think,

25:38

in the resistance was that there

25:40

was a, you know, a lot

25:42

of people would really, you know,

25:45

beat the shit out of you,

25:47

if you brought this up, including...

25:49

after the debate. I mean that

25:51

period after the debate is extraordinary

25:54

and that's extraordinary in your book.

25:56

You know the the maneuvering back

25:58

and forth. First of all... How

26:00

many of the insiders were genuinely

26:03

shocked by the debate? I mean,

26:05

genuinely shocked as opposed to, okay,

26:07

now it's unavoidable we have to

26:09

do something about it. You know,

26:11

Jonathan, you actually have the behind

26:14

the scenes account of people are

26:16

watching it who realize in real

26:18

time it was over, but were

26:20

they taking completely by surprise or

26:23

did this just give them the

26:25

incentive to do something about it?

26:27

Jonathan, you're muted. Sorry

26:30

about that. I think the people at

26:32

the very top of the Democratic Party

26:34

knew that there was a problem Before

26:37

the debate One of the reasons I

26:39

think that is that Nancy Pelosi went

26:41

to Joe Biden and urged him not

26:43

to debate Trump And she did it

26:46

in a way as we report in

26:48

the book for the first time and

26:50

she did it in a way that

26:52

You know was sort of aimed toward

26:54

his ego, right? Mr. President, don't lower

26:57

yourself to debate Donald Trump was the

26:59

way she framed it. But if Nancy

27:01

Pelosi thought that Joe Biden had a

27:03

chance of beating Donald Trump in a

27:06

debate, if she was unconcerned about his

27:08

fitness to compete on stage, she would

27:10

have urged him to debate Trump not

27:12

to stay away from him. Barack Obama

27:15

saw Joe Biden in person just a

27:17

couple of weeks before the debate with

27:19

George Clooney, who ended up writing an

27:21

op-ed about how bad Joe Biden was

27:23

at this fundraiser that they managed to

27:26

not mention until after the debate. And

27:28

Obama had to like, you know, lead

27:30

Biden off stage by the wrist, you

27:32

know, sort of like a chaperone. So

27:35

I think that there were people at

27:37

the very top that knew there was

27:39

a problem. The other problem, you know,

27:41

there's a problem with Joe Biden's mental

27:44

acuity. But the other problem, and this

27:46

is the one that that I think

27:48

bothered them the most, was they knew

27:50

that Joe Biden was trailing Trump and

27:52

had been. And the message coming from

27:55

the White House in the campaign was,

27:57

this is of super close rates.

27:59

and yada, yada, yada.

28:03

But the reality was Trump had

28:05

opened up a small but stable

28:07

and significant lead to the

28:09

point that the leaders of the

28:11

Democratic Party thought even before the

28:13

debate that Biden was on track

28:15

to lose. And it's one of

28:17

the reasons that they decided to

28:20

do an early debate. They wanted

28:22

to, the White House wanted

28:24

to change the trajectory of the

28:26

race. And they did just not

28:28

in the way that they

28:30

had hoped to. So in that

28:32

period between the debate and when

28:34

Joe Biden finally very reluctantly

28:36

dropped out, was there one decisive

28:38

moment, because your book has so

28:41

many turning points, you could say,

28:43

that was obviously a turning point.

28:45

This was the key moment. Was

28:47

there one thing, because I guess

28:49

I continue to be surprised

28:51

by how serious they were about

28:53

staying in the race after that

28:55

disastrous debate performance. I mean,

28:57

I looked at that and I

28:59

thought there's just no way that

29:02

number one, that he's going

29:04

to be able to survive, that

29:06

he's going to be able to

29:08

do this campaign, that he's going

29:10

to be able to beat

29:12

Donald Trump and quite frankly raise

29:14

real questions about his ability to

29:16

serve another four years in

29:18

office. But they were adamant they

29:20

were going to stay in. They

29:22

had a lot of the cards.

29:25

So, Amy, was there, was there

29:27

one thing that stuck out with

29:29

you? Was it Nancy Pelosi?

29:31

Was it Barack Obama? I mean,

29:33

who was it who finally delivered

29:35

the, I'm sorry to use this

29:37

phrase, the dagger in this

29:39

scenario? I think it was collective

29:42

in a way, Charlie, but I

29:44

mean, there was a one -two

29:46

punch game one day where Nancy

29:48

Pelosi appears on Morning Joe

29:50

and we detailed the behind the

29:52

scenes moment leading up to that

29:54

in the book. And then the

29:56

op -ed featuring George Clooney and

29:58

we also detailed how the campaign

30:01

tried their best to kill that

30:03

using Jeffrey Katzenberg as the trying

30:05

to go after it. and put the

30:07

kabash on it, and they couldn't. And so you had those two

30:09

moments sort of playing out, and that kind of resulted in

30:11

the downfall. You know, and then of course, Joe Biden goes

30:13

to Nevada, gets COVID. It's brutal

30:15

for him. It's almost, you

30:17

know, the debate starts with him

30:19

and his cold, and we detail

30:21

that in the book and how

30:24

he prepped around the cold. The

30:26

other bookend is COVID. And that

30:28

really is the nail in the

30:30

coffin. And we go into great

30:33

detail about that, about how he

30:35

was a lot sicker. Right. knew

30:37

about he was having respiratory

30:39

issues. He was actually very

30:42

weak, a weakened leader at

30:44

perhaps his greatest political moment

30:46

when he has to make

30:48

the biggest decision of his

30:50

political career. And so I

30:52

think all of that collectively

30:54

has a huge tremendous impact

30:56

on that. Okay, so I

30:59

want to fast forward Jonathan to

31:01

another remarkable day, the day that

31:03

Joe Biden drops out, you talked

31:05

about the phone call between Kamala

31:07

Harris and Joe Biden where she

31:09

begs him. But what's also extraordinary

31:12

is, and it felt extraordinary at

31:14

the time, how quickly she put

31:16

together the nomination, but when you

31:18

read your book, you realize that

31:20

that was not a foregone conclusion

31:22

necessarily. And I was surprised. to

31:24

realize how resistant both Barack Obama

31:27

and Nancy Pelosi were to Kamala

31:29

Harris. Neither of them were Kamala

31:31

Harris fans and apparently rather strongly

31:33

not Kamala Harris fans. Could you

31:36

talk to me about that? Yeah,

31:38

so I mean, Pelosi is from the same

31:40

place as Kamala Harris. She has had

31:42

a bird's eye view of Kamala Harris's

31:45

political career as a, you know,

31:47

local prosecutors, the state attorney

31:49

general, United States Senator. You

31:52

know, there's... Are there a few

31:54

people I've ever come across, if

31:56

any, who have the political

31:58

judgment that Nancy... Pelosi has

32:00

an understanding of what it takes

32:02

to be a successful politician and

32:05

she just never thought Kamala Harris

32:07

had it. She's just not a

32:09

fan of Harris and you know

32:11

we we have a scene in

32:13

the book where you know she's

32:15

talking Pelosi's talking to the California

32:17

delegation and you know she's talking

32:19

about you know how there might

32:21

be an open primary and somebody's

32:23

asked like will you to support

32:25

Harris and she's kind of stays

32:27

away from it. And it becomes

32:29

very clear to the Biden people

32:31

very quickly, you know, and they

32:33

sort of summarize Nancy Pelosi's view

32:35

in this mantra of he goes,

32:37

she goes, I mean, to get

32:39

rid of him. So yeah, and

32:41

Obama's never been a huge Harris

32:43

fan. I mean, the most memorable

32:45

thing that Barack Obama ever did

32:47

before this campaign regarding Kamala Harris.

32:49

was say that she was the

32:51

best looking Attorney General in the

32:53

country, which I am sure did

32:55

not sit well with either Connell

32:57

Harris or Michelle. You know, when

32:59

you're president of the United States,

33:01

don't go around saying which Attorney

33:03

General turns you on. You know,

33:05

it's kind of a terrible moment

33:07

for him. But he, no, he

33:09

didn't have any faith in her

33:12

either. He, you know, he tried

33:14

to set up this open convention.

33:16

I think of you, I think

33:18

the sort of cover story from

33:20

his camp was... you know they

33:22

think that that's the right way

33:24

to do things and you know

33:26

even if she locks it down

33:28

but like he was actively working

33:30

against her and that she what

33:32

she beat both Pelosi and Obama

33:34

which speaks to some ability to

33:36

do internal politics and she did

33:38

it with the help ultimately of

33:40

Biden and of Bill and Hillary

33:42

Clinton and Jim Clyburn who turned

33:44

out to be the kingmaker again.

33:46

Right? Because Obama calls him in

33:48

your account and try to get

33:50

him on board and he's already,

33:52

he's already pro-como. So I mean,

33:54

I'm going to get your take

33:56

on this because, you know, a

33:58

lot of this entire narrative of

34:00

what happens. Joe Biden staying in

34:02

the race, the resistance, goes back

34:04

to conventional view of Kamala Harris

34:06

that she was going to be

34:08

a disastrously bad candidate. And I

34:10

will admit I was one of

34:12

those that circulated the videos, the

34:14

social media videos, comparing her to,

34:16

you know, to beep and everything.

34:19

During the campaign though, she comes

34:21

out and comes out strong. And

34:23

that was a narrative for a

34:25

very long time that she was

34:27

running a pretty flawless campaign. I

34:29

mean, I'm I'm I'm pretty cynical

34:31

about candidates and I actually was

34:33

quite it's and was prepared to

34:35

be disappointed. I was surprised by

34:37

how well she did. But I

34:39

mean, obviously she loses in the

34:41

end. But give me your sense

34:43

though of Kamala Harris as a

34:45

as a candidate. I think the

34:47

expectations were incredibly low. She exceeded

34:49

them. But she fell short. So

34:51

was she a good candidate or

34:53

not? What is your take on

34:55

her? She was a good candidate,

34:57

but she also had a very

34:59

condensed timeline, obviously. She inherited Joe

35:01

Biden's campaign along with his people.

35:03

And his message, you know, we

35:05

detail in the book about how

35:07

she... she's almost pigeonholed by him

35:09

and handcuffed. She can't, she can't

35:11

go either way. He calls her

35:13

right before the debate and says

35:15

no daylight kid. And so even,

35:17

and that explains. Was that a

35:19

pivotal moment when in your book

35:21

that feels like this was the

35:23

moment at which he kneecapped her

35:26

by making it impossible for her

35:28

to separate herself from his unpopular

35:30

presidency? Exactly. Think about the great

35:32

chorus of the time was, why

35:34

isn't she the thing herself? And

35:36

you know, they had they had

35:38

prepped her to do, to say

35:40

different things, to say, you know,

35:42

that she was proud of the

35:44

record, but, you know, that she

35:46

was going to live it. And

35:48

she had different ideas in the

35:50

future. And that all came to

35:52

be on. the view when she's

35:54

asked about that and she can't.

35:56

She says that she can't think

35:58

of a thing that she would

36:00

do differently and meanwhile her aides

36:02

are just so aghast at that

36:04

moment they just can't believe what

36:06

she had just said because she

36:08

had practiced and rehearsed. what to

36:10

say in that moment. But I

36:12

do think as you talked about

36:14

earlier, she does have some political

36:16

skill, but at the same time,

36:18

she was also sort of handicapped

36:20

as vice president. I think a

36:22

lot of people said that she

36:24

wasn't, you know, they didn't use

36:26

her or utilize her in the

36:28

right way set her up to

36:31

run for such an office. And

36:33

so I think all of these

36:35

things kind of played out in

36:37

the end. Well, I mean, yeah,

36:39

her performance in the debate was,

36:41

I believe, the most dominant performance

36:43

I've ever seen, but yes, I'm

36:45

sorry. Go ahead, John. I was

36:47

just going to add to it.

36:49

I mean, I think if you

36:51

look at the failings on the

36:53

Democratic side, of course, there are

36:55

strengths in any campaign to even

36:57

losing campaigns, but if you look

36:59

at the failures on the Democratic

37:01

side, particularly the leaders of the

37:03

Democratic Party, there are a number

37:05

of sort of moral failures. And

37:07

by that I mean... you know

37:09

Joe Biden deciding to run for

37:11

president at you know the expense

37:13

of his party and you know

37:15

in his view of the country

37:17

his unwillingness to let his legacy

37:19

be you know tarnished a little

37:21

bit from Kamala Harris distancing herself

37:23

his desire to like hold back

37:25

from endorsing I mean these are

37:27

these are sort of what you

37:29

know what you would think of

37:31

as as moral failures and and

37:33

even some of the other leaders

37:35

who let their own priorities get

37:38

in the way of you know

37:40

what everybody else with the voters

37:42

actually cared about in the Democratic

37:44

Party which is preventing the second

37:46

Trump term that we're now seeing.

37:48

Whereas Kamal Harris I think when

37:50

you look at her failures as

37:52

a candidate their political failures. There

37:54

is so aside from her views

37:56

on issues of the day I

37:58

mean you can judge somebody being

38:00

moral and moral. not. But I

38:02

think, you know, she exhibited this

38:04

in tremendous loyalty to Biden, arguably

38:06

too much. I mean, you know,

38:08

it was a flaw as well

38:10

as a strength, but... She has

38:12

agencies. She didn't have to go

38:14

along, right? She didn't have to

38:16

go along, and she felt loyal

38:18

to Biden, who had put her

38:20

on the ticket, even after she'd

38:22

attacked him back in 2020 on

38:24

the debate stage. She did not

38:26

lose sight of the... sort of

38:28

north star of what this campaign

38:30

was, um, you know, designed to

38:32

be about. Um, I think she

38:34

tried to, uh, and we report

38:36

in the book, um, you know,

38:38

it didn't, didn't always work, but

38:40

she tried to limit the sort

38:42

of infighting within the campaign and

38:45

we have a whole chapter called

38:47

Fuckery about some of the, you

38:49

know, I think she tried to

38:51

get her people to not, you

38:53

know, engage in that to not

38:55

get, um, caught up in their

38:57

own petty jealousies and And I

38:59

think her people largely did that,

39:01

even as some of the Biden

39:03

holdovers were pretty ruthless internally. And

39:05

I guess the other thing I

39:07

would just say on that score,

39:09

you know, in terms of, you

39:11

know, in terms of the sort

39:13

of morality of the Harris campaign

39:15

is, she, one of the reasons

39:17

she didn't want to throw the

39:19

Biden legacy under the bus was

39:21

she felt like it was dishonest

39:23

to go out there and disowned

39:25

things that she had been part

39:27

of. And we always ask for

39:29

authenticity and politicians. And I think

39:31

we got the real Kamala Harris,

39:33

you know, good, bad, and indifferent,

39:35

or good, bad, and ugly, all

39:37

warts and all, whatever, in this

39:39

campaign. And, you know, I see

39:41

that as a moral victory for

39:43

her. And moral victories don't, don't,

39:45

don't stop battle Trump for being

39:47

president. But like, I just see

39:49

her in a different category. And

39:52

it's sort of a sort of

39:54

a... a positive light in the

39:56

way she conducted herself in this

39:58

campaign that was somewhat refreshing even

40:00

if it was not successful. Amy,

40:02

I mean, in your book, she,

40:04

you know, Biden comes off much

40:06

worse than... than she does, which

40:08

is an unusual thing. By the

40:10

way, that chapter on the internal

40:12

fighting, how she basically had to

40:14

have her campaign taken over by

40:16

the Biden folks and the Biden

40:18

folks kept sidlining her own people.

40:20

I mean, it's kind of inside

40:22

baseball, but it gives you an

40:24

insight into how difficult it was

40:26

to take over under those circumstances.

40:28

Okay, so let me give you

40:30

the cosmic question. Amy, in the

40:32

end, with all of his flaws.

40:34

Why did the American people elect

40:36

Donald Trump? Why did he win?

40:38

Was it inflation? Was it the

40:40

price of eggs? What was it?

40:42

Was it just his beautiful winning

40:44

personality? No, I don't think it

40:46

was... I think he ran a

40:48

better team. And that's hard for...

40:50

here, but he did. It was

40:52

more disciplined, it was tighter, it

40:54

was, he had a message, he

40:57

knew exactly, like in 2016, he

40:59

had a message back then too.

41:01

He knew exactly what he was

41:03

for, he knew exactly how to

41:05

brand himself, he's a really great

41:07

marketer, brander. uh... and but but

41:09

let me just stop you there

41:11

because because in in in real

41:13

time it felt as if this

41:15

was one of the most undiscipli

41:17

you watch those rallies in the

41:19

bad shittery in the craziness and

41:21

the way he would ramble all

41:23

over that that you what you're

41:25

saying though is that there was

41:27

a different campaign that was in

41:29

fact perceived by voters as being

41:31

more disciplined Guys like me, we're

41:33

focused on what's coming out of

41:35

his mouth, which is like, what

41:37

the hell? This is, you know,

41:39

Trump at his most deranged, and

41:41

yet you're saying he ran a

41:43

disciplined campaign. So we're talking me

41:45

about that. He did. And he

41:47

knew what people wanted in the

41:49

sense that he spoke to them.

41:51

He knew that the economy was

41:53

ill. I mean, keep in mind

41:55

that yes, he does ramble and

41:57

yes, he is rather undisciplined personally.

41:59

But he and campaign apparatus

42:02

knew exactly what to do.

42:04

And they ran a different

42:06

playbook, a better playbook. And

42:09

Democrats did. Democrats were

42:11

still saying, oh, we have more

42:13

boots on the ground in swing

42:15

states. You know, they were saying,

42:17

we've raised more money. We've,

42:19

you know, they ran a

42:22

smarter campaign. And that's, that's

42:24

really hard for that for some

42:26

people to stomach right now. Yeah, I'm

42:28

going to put it in the,

42:30

I think the simplest terms I

42:32

can. I think the American public

42:35

wanted change and Joe Biden did

42:37

not offer change and Kamala Harris

42:39

did not offer a substantive change

42:41

from Joe Biden. She refused to

42:44

distance herself or come up with a

42:46

plan that looked any different from

42:48

Biden. So the public wanted change,

42:51

that Trump offered it. He didn't

42:53

offer so much change that the average

42:55

voter that the median voter looked

42:57

at it and said. Wow, that's

42:59

way too chaotic. To Amy's point

43:01

about the campaign itself having

43:03

a lot more discipline

43:05

and, you know, measured against

43:07

the Democrats saying, we're going

43:10

to keep doing the exact

43:12

same thing. And when people

43:14

were worried about their pocketbooks,

43:16

they were worried about about

43:18

crime, worried about various things.

43:21

It was a change election

43:23

and the Democrats said, let's

43:25

just keep going exactly as

43:27

we are. the day of

43:29

the attempted assassination. Yes. That

43:32

in itself explains what

43:34

the perception of Donald

43:36

Trump and how he wants

43:39

the public to perceive him.

43:41

You know, in probably the

43:43

scariest moment of his life,

43:45

he knows exactly what to do.

43:48

And that image will be one

43:50

of the most iconic political

43:52

images of our lifetimes.

43:55

Yeah, strong, strong versus weak. But

43:57

of course, you know, we also

43:59

have to. ask the question, did

44:01

Kamala Harris underperform so badly because

44:03

she was a black woman? You

44:05

know, what was the role of

44:07

gender and race? Because a lot

44:09

of Democrats are now going to

44:11

ask themselves, you know, can we

44:13

ever nominate a woman again? Is

44:15

America ever going to be ready

44:17

for something like that? I mean,

44:19

did she code as too woke?

44:21

Was Trump able to actually more

44:23

successfully portray her as radical for

44:25

them as opposed to ours because

44:27

of who she was. What do

44:29

you think? He was able to

44:31

use her own words to do

44:33

that, right? The most effective political

44:35

ad I've ever seen in my

44:37

entire life was the trans ad.

44:39

Oh my God. It was run.

44:41

And it's the words out of

44:43

her own mouth that she wants

44:45

the state, meaning taxpayers, to pay

44:47

for transgender surgeries for people who

44:49

were in prison. and or undocumented

44:51

immigrants. It's like four issues in

44:53

one that ends with the narrator

44:55

saying, Kamala Harris is for they

44:57

then, President Trump is for you.

44:59

So an overall message with four

45:01

sub-units in it. It's just this

45:03

incredibly damaging ad using her own

45:05

words about how extreme she is.

45:07

And her campaign's decision using their

45:09

brilliant data analytics was to not

45:11

respond as we write in the

45:13

book. They were getting pressure from

45:15

all around the Democratic Party to

45:17

respond and they kept saying Bill

45:19

Clinton's one of them. He called

45:21

up, he said, hey, I've seen

45:23

this, this trans ad. A million

45:25

times. People are asking about it

45:27

on rope lines. And you know,

45:29

y'all ought to do something about

45:31

it. And the answer that he

45:33

gets back is, you know, from

45:35

General Ali Dillon in the campaign

45:37

is our data analytics say that

45:39

ad isn't very effective. And they

45:41

say that our responses aren't that

45:43

effective. So we're just not going

45:45

to do anything about anything about

45:47

it. And you know, like you

45:49

don't need a data team to

45:51

tell you that that ad was

45:53

brutal and it had the effect

45:55

everywhere everywhere. Everywhere. every football game

45:57

every hockey game during the baseball

45:59

playoffs I mean men must have

46:01

seen that ad more than they

46:03

saw their families during in Wisconsin

46:05

yeah that's true yeah me yeah

46:07

you know I look at that

46:09

as sort of emblematic of you

46:11

know a sort of failure to

46:14

understand the the basic common sense

46:16

of politics at the at the

46:18

campaign leadership level even when Someone

46:20

is smart about politics as Bill

46:22

Clinton is calling and saying, hey,

46:24

you got to do something about

46:26

this. This is not some random

46:28

guy. This is the random guy

46:30

that can take a diner in

46:32

America and walk out with a

46:34

friend, you know, of everybody in

46:36

that place. And he's like, this

46:38

thing's calendar. So I mean, I

46:40

look at that and I'm like,

46:42

this is just, you know, pure

46:44

campaign bullshit failure and just, I

46:46

can't even fathom it. But to

46:48

your question about. kind of person

46:50

of color or a woman of

46:52

color or a woman in the

46:54

presidency. I don't think that this

46:56

election or 2016 proved that a

46:58

woman can't win. I think that

47:00

the bar may be higher in

47:02

some places. We've never seen a

47:04

woman elected governor or senator in

47:06

the state of Pennsylvania or a

47:08

person of color for that matter

47:10

in those offices. Bar might be

47:12

a little higher, but I think

47:14

what we really learned from this

47:16

election is we just, you know,

47:18

the Democrats need a better, better

47:20

quality of candidate and maybe shake

47:22

up some of the consultant class

47:24

that's been running these cookie cutter

47:26

campaigns for the last, you know,

47:28

four or five cycles. Amy, might

47:30

give you the last word? Yeah.

47:32

Any of this? I completely agree

47:34

with Don, obviously, I think that

47:36

that ad coupled with you, you

47:38

add that to kind of let

47:40

Kamelaris speak in her own words,

47:42

those were both of them deadly

47:44

for campaign. They were absolutely

47:46

deadly and then the fact that they

47:49

that the Trump campaign put what is

47:51

something like a hundred million dollars behind

47:53

one ad was certainly an indication that

47:55

they thought that that was decisive and

47:58

being in a swing state here in

48:00

Wisconsin. I cannot. I cannot overstate how

48:02

often that ad was on. And I'm

48:04

not sure the Democrats have still gotten

48:07

it because my sense is there's still

48:09

kind of in denial about those cultural

48:11

issues, you know, every, you know, that

48:14

they continue to think that, you know,

48:16

that it's the economy stupid when I

48:18

think one of the, it's kind of

48:20

the weird tricks of the right has

48:23

been, yeah, the economy might matter, but

48:25

we're going to play on the cultural

48:27

playing field. And if you guys aren't

48:30

going to answer back, we own that.

48:32

And so we'll see whether they adapt.

48:34

Hey, the book, the book is Fight

48:36

Inside the Wildest Battle for the White

48:39

House by Jonathan Allen and Amy Parnes.

48:41

It is a great read. I have

48:43

to say that as a political junkie,

48:45

sometimes I think I knew this stuff,

48:48

but it's filled with good shit, guys.

48:50

It really is. I strongly recommend. And

48:52

so thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Amy,

48:55

for joining me. I appreciate it very

48:57

much. Charlie and thank you all for

48:59

listening to this episode of to the

49:01

contrary podcast we do this because Obviously

49:04

this week reminds us more than ever

49:06

that we are not the crazy ones