0:10

I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome to this episode

0:12

of To the Contrary podcast. We are

0:14

recording this the day after. Elon Musk,

0:16

humiliation in Wisconsin, so look, I'm still

0:19

in the vibe of talking about that.

0:21

Somebody actually asked me, are Democrats making

0:23

too much of all of this? And

0:26

I said, look, you know what? As

0:28

a principal, hope is better than despair.

0:30

Energy is better than lassitude. Fighting is

0:33

better than surrendering. But we have a

0:35

lot to talk about today. There's a

0:37

lot going on in this particular news.

0:39

cycle and I am really delighted to

0:42

welcome back my old friend, good

0:44

friend, Josh Kroshauer, who is the

0:46

editor-in-chief of Jewish Insider. Good to have

0:48

you back, Josh. Charlie, it is

0:50

really great to be back with you.

0:52

And there's never a dull moment and

0:54

we got our first elections too this

0:57

week, so at least notable elections of

0:59

consequence that... Oh no, I'm not... Well,

1:01

and of course then we also are

1:03

now getting the spin and you and

1:06

I are speaking on Wednesday afternoon We're

1:08

getting the spin that Elon Musk is

1:10

leaving Doge There's I kind of interpret

1:12

that as cover your ass spin Certainly

1:15

not a coincidence that would happen

1:17

after the shellacking in Wisconsin But

1:19

you know my default setting with

1:22

the Trump administration is do not

1:24

trust verify I think it's going

1:26

to be hard for Donald Trump

1:28

to scrape to scrape Elon Musk off

1:30

the bottom of his shoe, what do you

1:32

think? What do you think that goes?

1:35

Well, I will say this about Musk

1:37

is that the one thing we've learned

1:39

about Trump in the second term is

1:42

that even though he tries to ignore

1:44

the media reporting and the scrutiny, that

1:46

he's tried to blow past norms as

1:49

aggressively as ever, he is very attuned

1:51

to public opinion. And every time Elon

1:53

Musk kind of... cuts too close to

1:56

the bone and you can look at

1:58

it in the poles and how Musk

2:00

his own favorability. Musk's favorably rating has

2:02

dipped faster than any public figure. And

2:05

I remember in this short period of

2:07

time with these aggressive cuts to the

2:09

federal government. And I think all you

2:12

have to do is look at the

2:14

results in Wisconsin to understand how quickly

2:16

and how ferociously a lot of swing

2:19

voters and certainly a lot of Democrats

2:21

are mobilized to vote against his candidate

2:23

in the state Supreme Court justice race.

2:26

So yes, he's become a lightning rod.

2:28

He is. anchor? He is he's sort

2:30

of the heat shield for Trump and

2:33

I think the big question Charlie is

2:35

whether he whether Trump ultimately get get

2:37

takes the heat for the consequences of

2:39

these very deep and significant cuts to

2:42

the federal government. But I think that's

2:44

a savvy point, that in some ways

2:46

he has been a heat shield. However,

2:49

in Wisconsin, it was Donald Trump's face

2:51

who was on every single piece of

2:53

literature for the conservative candidate. I mean,

2:56

so this was as much a referendum

2:58

on Trump as it was on Musk.

3:00

And the fact that, you know, everything's

3:03

closer in Wisconsin. It's generally decided by

3:05

20,000 votes. This was a blowout. And

3:07

this was a big turnout election. This

3:10

is not just your normal, you know,

3:12

odd year off year election. There was

3:14

a turnout of 2.4 million voters and

3:16

the conservative candidate who, by the way,

3:19

Brad Shimmel, is a former Attorney General

3:21

of the state of Wisconsin. He's a

3:23

good candidate for the Republicans and for

3:26

the conservatives. He lost by 10 points

3:28

to Susan Crawford after Elon Musk dumps

3:30

in 26 million dollars. So I look

3:33

I think this is this was extraordinary

3:35

I think almost everything that Elon Musk

3:37

did in Wisconsin backfired I think the

3:40

timing was very very revealing you know

3:42

the voters were going to the polls

3:44

right as they were hearing about the

3:47

attacks on Social Security that cuts to

3:49

health care signal gate all of that's

3:51

that stuff but you know what what

3:53

what it means for it means for

3:56

Musk, we don't know, but I want

3:58

to ask you this because I know

4:00

you're pretty wired in. There are a

4:03

bunch of Republicans in Washington who are

4:05

probably not disappointed by this, who were

4:07

kind of rooting for Elon Musk to

4:10

take a fall because they're thinking, you

4:12

know, the guy's gotten too big, he's

4:14

too arrogant, and we need to find

4:17

a way to cut him loose in

4:19

some way, and this helps them, doesn't

4:21

it? I mean, there's a faction among

4:24

Republicans, but it's probably not unhappy. that

4:26

Elon Musk fell on his face in

4:28

Wisconsin? Yeah, I mean, certainly I've heard

4:30

those conversations. Musk has, by virtue of

4:33

his lack of political savvy, lack of

4:35

charisma, and, you know, being responsible for

4:37

not just cuts to the waste, fraud,

4:40

and abuse that he claims, but there's

4:42

been a lot of misrepresentation in his

4:44

public appearances on how deep and how

4:47

just hasty and chaotic these, these cuts

4:49

have been. Not just... you know, maybe

4:51

more politically palatable cuts to agencies like

4:54

USAID, but but you know cuts to

4:56

the HHS yesterday where you have people

4:58

who deal with cancer research or deal

5:01

with, you know, life-saving treatments who are,

5:03

you know, lifetime public servants who have

5:05

won bipartisan praise, just rationally getting fired

5:07

without any real process. I think that

5:10

is that is going to be where

5:12

the rubber hits the road politically. You

5:14

know, I think people... uh... want government

5:17

to be pared down i think that

5:19

was part of yeah i don't trumps

5:21

mandate if there is a mandate from

5:24

the twenty four election the way it's

5:26

been done and you know he and

5:28

and just the the chaos behind it

5:31

uh... has really lost him support as

5:33

we talked about just look at his

5:35

poll numbers he is one of the

5:38

least like the people in the trump

5:40

administration he's well known by almost everyone

5:42

now in the public. And he was

5:44

the, he was the central figure by

5:47

his own, by his own volition. He

5:49

goes to Green Bay on Sunday. By

5:51

the way, you know, we talked in

5:54

kind of. number crunching you know Wisconsin

5:56

better than anyone Charlie uh... but i

5:58

noticed that in brown county uh... county

6:01

expanding group that only did he lose

6:03

that was one of the biggest swings

6:05

from the twenty four election towards uh...

6:08

towards this election towards the the left

6:10

uh... trump one brown county in twenty

6:12

four and uh... susan Crawford easily one

6:15

brown county in the in the state

6:17

uh... which is a real about bellwether

6:19

county and you know that that is

6:21

the home of green bay and uh...

6:24

they were pushing breath far believe it

6:26

or not, as a big surrogate. You

6:28

made a couple of points that I

6:31

think are just absolutely crucial, which is,

6:33

you know, that for all of his

6:35

Master of the Universe, Bob, Elon Musk.

6:38

is not very good at politics. His

6:40

level of ignorance and tone deafness when

6:42

it comes to politics is extraordinary, which

6:45

makes him dangerous for Republicans. He's not

6:47

charismatic. He thinks he's charismatic. I mean,

6:49

he thinks he's a rock star. He

6:52

shows up on stage and he's throwing,

6:54

you know, cheese heads into the crowd

6:56

and everything. But the fact is that

6:59

he doesn't have the political gene. He

7:01

doesn't have the political instinct. And at

7:03

some point, members of Congress have to

7:05

know that he's going to... He's going

7:08

to try to serve them a ginormous

7:10

shit sandwich and tell them they have

7:12

to eat it. And I'm guessing that

7:15

many of them would certainly like to

7:17

pass on that. Well, one of the

7:19

things covering politics for as long as

7:22

I have is knowing how many donors,

7:24

how many business people think that they

7:26

know politics, they want to play fantasy

7:29

politics, and then when it comes in.

7:31

Of all ideological stripes, it's not just

7:33

a... partisan or center of life center.

7:36

It's people who think politics is easy.

7:38

They watch it from the outside and

7:40

then they're in the middle of the

7:42

of the storm and they have no

7:45

clue. I'm a big believer like, like,

7:47

know what you're good at, right? If

7:49

you're good at like making widgets, make

7:52

widgets. And if you're good at your

7:54

building rockets, go to space, do that.

7:56

Elon Musk got addicted to politics, this

7:59

cycle. He can't pay for Trump in

8:01

Pennsylvania. Maybe he made a difference in

8:03

that race. And then he tried to

8:06

replicate it. What did he say? He

8:08

said this was like a Wisconsin State

8:10

Supreme Court race was sort of a

8:13

test for the future of civilization. I

8:15

mean, he laid the stakes pretty high

8:17

and he lost by it. Yeah. Yeah,

8:19

it's hard to say that the fate

8:22

of Western civilization is at stake. And

8:24

then two days later say, yeah, well,

8:26

you know, I tried. No, no, no,

8:29

no, no big. No, but this is

8:31

what you're making about. rich people thinking

8:33

that they know about politics. It's sort

8:36

of quadrupled when it comes to billionaires,

8:38

right, who, you know, think obviously they're

8:40

the smartest person in the room because

8:43

they generally surround themselves with people who

8:45

are telling them, boy, you've lost some

8:47

weight, you look so good, you are

8:50

so smart. And so as a result,

8:52

they carry around their own bubbles. So

8:54

all of this is exaggerated. So I

8:56

want to talk about... You know, we

8:59

can't really talk about the tariffs in

9:01

too much detail today, because we're taping

9:03

this before the great reveal, but by

9:06

the time people watch this, we'll be

9:08

in the middle of a trade war,

9:10

won't we, Josh, of some kind, reciprocal

9:13

tariffs or some sort of thing. We're

9:15

talking about President of the United States

9:17

imposing trillions of dollars in new taxes

9:20

without congressional action. I've admitted this. I

9:22

don't know. Did you know? You know,

9:24

you know, that President United States unilaterally?

9:27

can just raise taxes like that? I

9:29

didn't, I think it was like four

9:31

or five years ago that I finally

9:33

realized that you don't actually need Congress

9:36

to pass a massive tax increase. Well,

9:38

who knew Congress would be, especially the

9:40

Republicans who have stood for free trade,

9:43

stood against tariffs for most of their,

9:45

for many of them at least, for

9:47

much of their political careers and are

9:50

not. saying a word in terms of

9:52

expressing skepticism. I mean, you do see

9:54

some folks on the always of Capitol

9:57

Hill having some nervousness about how it

9:59

will affect the constituents in their home

10:01

states. A lot of the farm state

10:04

senators and lawmakers have especially been been

10:06

worried in recent days. But look, there

10:08

is this reticence. the clash between the

10:10

desire to please Trump and not alienate

10:13

people in the Republican Party that support

10:15

Trump at all costs versus the real-life

10:17

impact of these very aggressive terrorists that

10:20

are set to be imposed. You see

10:22

this a lot in politics. We follow

10:24

this stuff day today. Most Americans frankly

10:27

don't have the time and frankly many

10:29

of them have good sense to tune

10:31

out. But the rubber hits the road

10:34

when you actually see the impact of.

10:36

like a car costing thousands of dollars

10:38

more as a result of the tariffs

10:41

or you know the you saw this

10:43

you know to take an example from

10:45

the Biden administration there was a lot

10:47

of a silly talk about inflation and

10:50

it not mattering and then all of

10:52

a sudden people were paying more for

10:54

groceries and people saw it at the

10:57

the price the price the rising prices

10:59

at the grocery store and all of

11:01

a sudden you can see the polling

11:04

move months later against all the happy

11:06

talk and there's a lot of to

11:08

any kind of even reasonable and good

11:11

good-natured criticism. And ultimately, the people are

11:13

going to decide. And I think you'll

11:15

see, we've already started to see in

11:18

the results in the Tuesday elections, an

11:20

early sign perhaps, but we're starting to

11:22

see the political capital being drained from

11:24

the Trump and Republican Party coffers because

11:27

of this hubris. Okay, so I want

11:29

to talk about how you pissed off

11:31

JD Vance before we move on to

11:34

other things. Okay, so I don't know

11:36

you have a thing with JD Vance.

11:38

I'm just gonna read this here. This

11:41

is from, I have a lousy, I

11:43

have a lousy print out of this,

11:45

I'm sorry. Vice President JD Vance raged

11:48

at Jewish Insider Thursday morning calling it

11:50

an anti-JD rag. I never, I didn't

11:52

know the word anti-JD rags, but you

11:55

know. We're calling it an anti-JD reg

11:57

and editor-in-chief Josh Krosshauer, the biggest hack

11:59

in Washington, while ripping what he called

12:01

a hit piece. So... on that being

12:04

called the biggest hack in Washington by

12:06

the vice president of the United States.

12:08

Josh, what did you do to piss

12:11

him off so much? Why is he

12:13

coming after you? It was a fascinating

12:15

Thursday. Well it was fascinating just to

12:18

see that tweet Thursday. Look it was

12:20

based on just... straight up reporting. We

12:22

have a reporter that covers Capitol Hill

12:25

who was interviewing Republican senators both on

12:27

record and on background about signal gate

12:29

about the comments that JD Vance made

12:32

in those signal chats where he was

12:34

the one point person who seemed to

12:36

be the most skeptical of attacking the

12:38

Houthis in Yemen and we asked Republican

12:41

senators what they thought about that. A

12:43

lot of them voiced there. disagreement at

12:45

least on background with with with vice

12:48

president Vance and we reported those facts

12:50

I didn't didn't I think Vance it

12:52

was interesting he called called Jewish inside

12:55

or an anti JD rag not an

12:57

anti yeah very personalized we've reported we

12:59

actually he wants his own things right

13:02

they like he's moving on he has

13:04

to have the anti JD blank right

13:06

well I mean look this the bigger

13:09

story is not about personalities and myself

13:11

and vice president fans, but it's about

13:13

these issues and disagreements within the administration

13:16

over foreign policy and national security issues.

13:18

And even as many Republicans are very

13:20

loyal to Trump and even as they,

13:22

you know, speak from the same hymnal,

13:25

you could see in those signal chats

13:27

some hints of real disagreement over how

13:29

to approach some some serious foreign policy

13:32

issues, how you know, aggressively should we

13:34

go after an Iranian proxy like the

13:36

Huttis? And you can see that Vance

13:39

was on the more, you know, reticent

13:41

wing of the chat. He didn't think

13:43

it was urgent to go after the

13:46

Huttis and as part of that, that

13:48

strike. And you could see other other

13:50

members ranging from, you know, Pete Hexeth,

13:53

the Defense Secretary or the National Security

13:55

Advisor, and we're aligned with the president's

13:57

mission. So reading those chats, there were

13:59

a lot of things to glean from

14:02

them, but it did look like JD,

14:04

or vice president Vance, I should say,

14:06

was on the outside looking in, and

14:09

we were reporting on that, getting Republican

14:11

reaction to that, and I don't think

14:13

he found that reporting very comforting, very

14:16

comforting, and really on that issue specifically,

14:18

the divisions and discussions within the Republican

14:20

Party over foreign policies. It's a major

14:23

one. And we'll be continuing to report

14:25

on that and the vice president can

14:27

say what he wants to say about

14:30

our coverage. Now we get to vote

14:32

an entire podcast talking about their relations

14:34

with the media and how they try

14:36

to bend the media to their will

14:39

and the media to their will and

14:41

the success they've had so far. But

14:43

I want to move on to something

14:46

much much more substantive that you've been

14:48

writing about and thinking about, particularly since

14:50

October 7th, the October 7th attacks and

14:53

the rise of antiSemitism, including on university

14:55

campuses. We're now at a moment where

14:57

the Trump administration is aggressively, number one,

15:00

going after students who might have engaged

15:02

in some pro-Palestinian activities, even though they

15:04

were held green cards, deporting them, seizing

15:07

them, arresting them on the street at

15:09

the same time. We had the major

15:11

threats against Columbia University and now Harvard.

15:13

you know, threatening the loss of hundreds

15:16

of millions of dollars of federal aid

15:18

because they did not more forcefully combat

15:20

anti-Semitism. So we have the tension between

15:23

fighting anti-Semitism, but also the heavy hand

15:25

of the government. So let's talk about

15:27

the cases of these students. Where do

15:30

you come down? What have you been

15:32

thinking? What have you been writing and

15:34

thinking? about the administration's basically saying that

15:37

if you engaged in anti-Israeli propaganda of

15:39

any kind in your foreign student we

15:41

have the right to rendition. What do

15:44

you think? So let's take a step

15:46

back because it does seem like we've

15:48

gone from one one end to the

15:50

other, right? I mean, how did we

15:53

get to this position where you have

15:55

some of the most prestigious schools in

15:57

the country, Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, where, you

16:00

know, anti Semitic behavior, anti Semitic activism

16:02

was allowed on campus with very little

16:04

punishment. This problem, frankly, you know, we've

16:07

been covering, especially on certain campuses. scourge

16:09

of anti-Semitism and, you know, pro-Hemas, pro-Hesbilla,

16:11

pro-October 7th sentiment in pockets at some

16:14

of these these rallies that were not,

16:16

you know, that were essentially indulged by

16:18

many of these universities leadership. So we

16:21

literally had about 18 months, right, Charlie,

16:23

about of university leaders. We saw the

16:25

hearing on Capitol Hill where, you know,

16:27

university presidents were speechless and talking about

16:30

how they were going to confront the

16:32

rise in anti-Semitism on their campuses. Many

16:34

of them actually got ousted from their

16:37

jobs. So we're at this point where

16:39

there was just this no leadership, a

16:41

vacuum of leadership. Some universities I think

16:44

they're better than others, but the ones

16:46

in the spotlight, the ones we're talking

16:48

about in the news like Columbia, Harvard

16:51

in particular, continued to have to face

16:53

these these these challenges. So President Trump

16:55

comes into office, one of his big

16:58

campaign. promises was cracking down on anti-Semitism,

17:00

a lot of this stuff. He talked

17:02

about on the campaign trail. But what

17:04

you point to, Charlie, is that you

17:07

see people, and I think the hope

17:09

was that people who are actually supportive

17:11

of Hamas, who are here on student

17:14

visas, by the way, people who are

17:16

supported, if there was someone with an

17:18

ISIS flag in Harvard Yard. I think

17:21

it would be a strong consensus that

17:23

they shouldn't be in this country, right?

17:25

I mean, I think that's a pretty

17:28

consensus position. Hamas is a U.S. designated

17:30

terrorist organization, and we know that there

17:32

are a number of people who have

17:35

been, we don't know if they're foreign

17:37

students or Americans, but for those who

17:39

are not here, you know, people here

17:41

on student visas, you know. that was

17:44

I think a pretty widespread there was

17:46

widespread support certainly in the Jewish community

17:48

that people who are displaying terrorist supporting

17:51

terrorist groups waving terrorist paraphernalia that that

17:53

would be something that could be to

17:55

be used to to deport to deport

17:58

you in the case some of these

18:00

cases that we're hearing about now there's

18:02

one case out of Tufts University which

18:05

I know a lot of Americans have

18:07

seen the the footage this is a

18:09

woman video who co-wrote an op-ed supporting

18:12

people have the right to express their

18:14

views on foreign policy and that's that's

18:16

not supporting Hamas that doesn't mean you're

18:18

supporting a terrorist group and when reporters

18:21

including JI but we've been trying to

18:23

you know get get more detail from

18:25

the Department of Homeland Security but like

18:28

trying to get evidence that there is

18:30

actually support for any support for Hamas

18:32

or any sympathy for terrorist groups and

18:35

that we have not gotten that that

18:37

that that evidence from the government. So

18:39

that is a real concern when you

18:42

have people who are not involved in

18:44

terrorist activity, not supporting Hamas, people who

18:46

just happened to express an opinion critical

18:49

of Israel or comments. supporting BDS I

18:51

guess in the case of the tough

18:53

student, you know, that's not I think

18:55

what a lot of people were anticipating

18:58

when the promises were to crack down

19:00

on people who had actually been affiliated

19:02

or associated with terrorist groups. So we've

19:05

gone from one extreme to the other

19:07

and like in our politics today, Charlie,

19:09

there's really no middle ground where we

19:12

should be able to agree that people

19:14

who support terrorist organizations that are not

19:16

here in the country, you know, that

19:19

are here on student visas. Right. you

19:21

know, they can be deported. But when

19:23

it comes to expressing your view, expressing

19:26

your views on foreign policy, even if

19:28

it's an unpopular view, that should not

19:30

be, I mean, what happened at Tufts

19:33

University in Somerville, I think a lot

19:35

of people are concerned about. Well, and

19:37

it's very clear that folks of the

19:39

Trump administration are not... making some of

19:42

those distinctions. And also that they don't

19:44

seem to be particularly concerned with due

19:46

process. And I guess one of the

19:49

things that really worries me is whether

19:51

or not, because we've seen the way

19:53

that they can change public opinion, delegitimize

19:56

certain institutions and traditions and norms, whether

19:58

or not they were going to convince

20:00

a large majority of Americans or at

20:03

least their base that... These people don't

20:05

deserve due process. The due process is

20:07

not important. And now the numbers from

20:10

the polls that I've seen are kind

20:12

of mixed, that there's overwhelming support for

20:14

being able to deport people who might

20:16

have been engaged in disruption of university

20:19

campuses. But there's also seems to be

20:21

now some pushback against the lack of

20:23

due process for some of the Venezuelan

20:26

and I'm switching topic slightly, you know,

20:28

like the the innocent, you know, man

20:30

who was, you know, snatched off the

20:33

street because he had the wrong kind

20:35

of tattoo and has been sent to

20:37

El Salvador. So people are paying attention,

20:40

but it seems very dangerous to me.

20:42

That these things like free speech. and

20:44

due process that we probably took for

20:47

granted are now in play. There was

20:49

a lot to unpack there, Charlie. Let's

20:51

go to the Venice, the case of

20:53

the Venezuelan. Yeah. And in some of

20:56

these cases that we've been learning about,

20:58

the barber who that that was had

21:00

a tattoo of real Madrid, or it

21:03

was basically. There were misrepresentations from the

21:05

US government about why they claiming that

21:07

he was in an MS-13 gang and

21:10

they've not provided any evidence in a

21:12

court of law to back up their

21:14

assertions. There's another, a couple cases. There

21:17

was one, a man in Maryland who

21:19

was picked up and the Atlantic did

21:21

a good job reporting on that case.

21:24

And again, the DHS has not provided

21:26

any evidence backing up their claims and

21:28

they've been struggling to do so in

21:30

a court of law where thank God.

21:33

It's not social media. It's not it's

21:35

not it's not the spin room at

21:37

the White House. You actually have to

21:40

have facts and evidence to back up

21:42

your your case. So yes, it's very

21:44

disturbing. I believe some of those people

21:47

who were caught up in the in

21:49

the in the whole deportation to the

21:51

horrible El Salvador prison also may have

21:54

been here. They may have been receiving

21:56

humanitarian protections here in the United States.

21:58

I mean, and you know that the.

22:01

Trump administration has been trying to like

22:03

cancel the the humanitarian protections for people

22:05

who is trying to escape from tyrannical

22:07

regimes like Venezuela into this country and

22:10

then the whole the whole America being

22:12

a shining shining city on the hill

22:14

for people who are oppressed it's out

22:17

the window in this administration's view so

22:19

I mean you're right Charlie that due

22:21

process is the lack of due process

22:24

is a huge problem it's also just

22:26

the line the fact that we don't

22:28

have any evidence to back up these

22:31

wild assertions being made by the administration.

22:33

It's not new. It's not a new

22:35

observation to say that the cruelty is

22:38

sometimes the point, but the celebration of

22:40

the cruelty... is really rather extraordinary and

22:42

I read an article and at first

22:44

I thought it was a little bit

22:47

over the top but I keep coming

22:49

back to it talking about the cruelty

22:51

pornography that seems to be very popular

22:54

now on the on the right. You

22:56

have Christie Noam you know showing up

22:58

and tight-fitting sweaters to pose in front

23:01

of you know a jail cell full

23:03

of tattooed men and just sort of

23:05

reveling in the the cruelty there. It's

23:08

it is a there's there's... It feels

23:10

increasingly dangerous that we are treating people

23:12

like that and that there's a large

23:15

constituency for doing all of that. Now

23:17

in the case of one of the

23:19

detainees, they've admitted they arrested him and

23:21

deported him by mistake but are now

23:24

saying that they don't have the power

23:26

to bring him back, which is ridiculous.

23:28

I mean that's complete bullshit, right? Like

23:31

Donald Trump can't get on the phone.

23:33

and bring somebody back from El Salvador.

23:35

I mean, the guy from El Salvador

23:38

has been, you know, kissing, has been

23:40

kissing Donald Trump's toes for how long,

23:42

but it is interesting that at least

23:45

in one case, they've actually admitted that

23:47

they've fucked up, but they're not gonna

23:49

do anything about it. Yeah, I mean,

23:52

that is outrageous that you say, oh,

23:54

we made a mistake, but we're not

23:56

gonna get him back to the country

23:58

and make sure he. you know, he

24:01

he gets that restitution. There is sort

24:03

of a cruelty, as you note, Charlie,

24:05

to that. Look, I mean, it's going

24:08

to be interesting to see how the

24:10

politics of this play out. This administration

24:12

is cocky, confident that they won the

24:15

November election because they were voters were

24:17

dissatisfied with the Biden administration's handling, lax

24:19

handling of the border, that there was

24:22

a political mandate, widespread mandate to crack

24:24

down on illegal immigration. Now they've gone

24:26

well beyond illegal immigration. As I noted,

24:29

many of these people seem to have

24:31

been here, at least some of them

24:33

seem to have been here legally. They

24:35

had some humanitarian protections that were disregarded.

24:38

But the test is that you see

24:40

people like Stephen Miller or the vice

24:42

president defending these deportations, defending the disregard

24:45

for due process. But they think that

24:47

the politics are on their side. They

24:49

think that this is one of their

24:52

strongest issues. Now, it's very easy for

24:54

someone to look at a poll and

24:56

assume that that public support is going

24:59

to remain static indefinitely. the hubris of

25:01

overreach, of doing things incompetently, of doing

25:03

things with a cruel, you know, a

25:06

cruel tone to how they're handling the

25:08

situations, could quickly burn a lot of

25:10

that political capital. We'll see. Certainly, like

25:13

the separation of families, for instance, in

25:15

the first term, was a, you know,

25:17

was a moment where Trump did see

25:19

a notable loss of public support, even

25:22

though I think a lot of Americans

25:24

brought agreed with taking a tougher position

25:26

on immigration. Well, I know the point

25:29

that I wanted to make about that,

25:31

about the Christianome photo op, because you

25:33

and I are both old enough to

25:36

remember when Abu Ghraib was considered a

25:38

scandal, when it was an international disgrace,

25:40

and now they're posing with prisoners as

25:43

if it is a photo op. that

25:45

we've actually transitioned to it and it

25:47

felt like kind of a okay this

25:50

is how far we've come when it

25:52

comes to the cruelty okay do you

25:54

mind if I switch topics to get

25:56

to politics a little bit because I

25:59

want to get your take on what's

26:01

going on with the Democrats they had

26:03

a very very good week this week

26:06

you know full stop there's no question

26:08

about it talk to me a little

26:10

bit about Corey Booker because there's been

26:13

this jocking for who's going to stand

26:15

up and do it and and you

26:17

got to I sensed a lot of

26:20

Democrats, a lot of liberals got to

26:22

tingle up their leg watching Corey Booker

26:24

do his Jimmy Stewart Mr. Smith goes

26:27

to Washington thing, which was actually kind

26:29

of impressive. So is Corey Booker, where

26:31

does Corey Booker go from here? Is

26:33

he a thing now? What do you

26:36

think? Sparticus. Yeah, no, I look, I

26:38

look, there's an interesting debate going on

26:40

in the Democratic Party, and they're trying

26:43

to avoid the conversation about do we

26:45

go to further to the left or

26:47

further to the center and trying to

26:50

talk more about do we have to

26:52

have that conversation? Well, and Corin Booker's

26:54

an interesting person in that context. But

26:57

there's also the thing that they're trying

26:59

to focus on now is who's going

27:01

to fight and who's going to just

27:04

be much more wise. And in that

27:06

filibuster, which is now set set an

27:08

all-time record, capital record, beating strong Thurman

27:10

incidentally, Booker showed that he's willing to,

27:13

I mean, he, he, I can tell

27:15

you, a lot of my liberal friends

27:17

were texting me and asking me if

27:20

I'd seen the fact that if Booker

27:22

was about to break the record, so

27:24

he captured at a time when Democrats

27:27

are worried that they're not. capturing social

27:29

media attention, viral attention, a booker show

27:31

that he's willing to fight. He's willing

27:34

to speak for 24 plus hours and

27:36

shows impressive. So that matters. I mean,

27:38

getting getting the Democratic base off off

27:41

its couch and back into fighting mode,

27:43

I think is an important predicate for

27:45

the party to get back on its

27:47

feet. Ultimately, and I've said this quite

27:50

a bit in the last couple weeks,

27:52

the Democrats are going to get back

27:54

into the game because of the Republican.

27:57

the governing party's excess and overreach. So

27:59

I think there's a lot of debate

28:01

going on internally in the Democratic Party

28:04

about strategy and tactics. Ultimately, what people

28:06

don't vote about the out toward about

28:08

the views of the opposition party mainly

28:11

it's mainly on the competence and the

28:13

success or lack thereof of the governing

28:15

party so look to get the party

28:18

excited that you saw you saw the

28:20

elections on Tuesday you know the democratic

28:22

base did show up even in some

28:24

red districts down in Florida but but

28:27

ultimately it's going to be taking advantage

28:29

of the missteps that we're seeing from

28:31

the Trump administration namely on the economy

28:34

and the tariffs No, I think that's

28:36

right. I think that we're still in

28:38

the first, what, 72, 73 days of

28:41

the administration. Look, I think the Democrats

28:43

need to engage in a lot of

28:45

introspection. I think they really do need

28:48

to ask themselves why their brand is

28:50

so toxic. They do need to talk

28:52

about why they are not connecting with

28:55

people who used to be Democratic voters.

28:57

I think that has to take place.

28:59

But you're right. I mean, ultimately... The

29:01

midterms and 2028 will be decided by

29:04

how people view the ruling regime, what's

29:06

going on there. But I'm a little

29:08

skeptical. Look, I've made it very clear.

29:11

I'm skeptical of the folks that think

29:13

that the future of the party is

29:15

more Bernie Sanders and more AOC. But

29:18

I do think that the reason they're

29:20

getting so much buzz is because they're

29:22

the ones who fight as opposed to

29:25

rolling over. So I think that's wide

29:27

open. rising stars. If we set aside

29:29

AOC and Bernie, who are you looking

29:32

at? I didn't, I did not have

29:34

Corey Booker on my card. Before now,

29:36

I would have given an answer to

29:38

like something like Pete Buddha, Judge, I

29:41

think is worth watching. I'm very interested

29:43

in what he's going to do. I'm

29:45

interested. In, you know, Abigail Spannberger is

29:48

going to be elected governor of Virginia.

29:50

I think she's a centrist. I think

29:52

she's a rising star. I don't know

29:55

that she's presidential at this point, but

29:57

who are you looking at as somebody

29:59

that's going to step into that rule?

30:02

Yeah, I think it's going to be

30:04

someone we're not talking about as much

30:06

right now. Westmore, the Maryland governor, I

30:09

think it's someone to keep an eye

30:11

on who's charismatic. I think Democrats need

30:13

a, they have a, unlike the Republican

30:15

Party, that has always had the ideological

30:18

unity for the most part, the Democrats

30:20

have always been a hodgepodge of different

30:22

coalitions and interests, more, you know, has

30:25

a good story to tell biographically. He's

30:27

now in his first term as governor

30:29

of Maryland, has the career, I mean,

30:32

I've met the governor, a couple of

30:34

occasions, he's got that it factor that

30:36

you look for in a national political

30:39

figure. So, you know, so I think

30:41

West Moore is someone I would keep

30:43

an eye on, someone who actually has

30:46

shown that they can actually achieve things.

30:48

Right, Charlie. You know, you've been following

30:50

this book, Abundance by Ezra Klein and

30:52

Eric Klein. Yes, I have. I think

30:55

it's a very timely critique that the

30:57

party is just, you know, twiddles and

30:59

thumbs and in. Mike's worthy goals in

31:02

bureaucratic red tape. So if you're Josh

31:04

Shapiro and you're the governor of Pennsylvania

31:06

and you help Bill I-95 after it

31:09

fell apart in that one stretch in

31:11

a very short amount of time, that

31:13

is a that is a sign that

31:16

you're you're a party or you're a

31:18

leader that can actually get things done.

31:20

And I think that's a, you know,

31:23

that's something that they're gonna want to,

31:25

that any, any candidate, any nominee is

31:27

going to want to be able to

31:30

be able to be able to. I'm

31:32

not feeling that, but it's really interesting.

31:34

bring up that book about the about

31:36

abundance because I was thinking the exact

31:39

same thing. One of the problems the

31:41

Democrats have is that they have a

31:43

governance problem that they that they come

31:46

up with policies that don't actually work.

31:48

And this is a book written by

31:50

progressives who talk about all of the

31:53

red tape that make it impossible to

31:55

get anything done, make it impossible to

31:57

have broadband installed or charging stations for

32:00

electric vehicles or housing built. The Biden

32:02

administration made a big deal about the

32:04

billions of dollars that we're going to

32:07

be invested in creating this electric vehicle

32:09

infrastructure, right? And apparently... correct me if

32:11

I'm wrong, because I haven't read the

32:13

whole book, but I think they ended

32:16

up building four stations. Five, five, five.

32:18

And it's like, okay, there's something wrong

32:20

here. You can't get things done. Democrats,

32:23

if they preside over cities that appear

32:25

to be failing or bureaucracies that do

32:27

not deliver, that's going to be a

32:30

problem. And so you do have this

32:32

movement in the Democratic Party that says,

32:34

listen. we need to be a party

32:37

that actually accomplishes things gets things done

32:39

and doesn't tie ourselves up in bureaucracy

32:41

red tape and you know political litmus

32:44

tests look i i like people to

32:46

judge a lot but he he politically

32:48

speaking he's part of the problem in

32:50

that he doesn't have a good line

32:53

about how you could spend how you

32:55

could tout a big federal spending package

32:57

it's supposed to help accelerate the transition

33:00

to electric vehicles and you build like

33:02

single-digit number of electric charging stations with

33:04

the billions of dollars that that's allocated.

33:07

That is something that is going to

33:09

hang over his head if he ever

33:11

wanted to run for national politics. Gavin

33:14

Newsom, like I've actually been pretty impressed

33:16

with what Newsom's doing politically, maybe it's

33:18

not authentic, but he certainly is trying

33:21

to give it to the middle, but

33:23

like... California, isn't California the epicenter of

33:25

a lot of these problems where, you

33:27

know, you, you, you, back in the

33:30

Obama administration, there was money allocated to

33:32

build high speed rail and how much

33:34

of it has been built? I mean,

33:37

total, just, just, embarrassing. right? So I

33:39

do think Democrats need to find leaders

33:41

that represent the future that are not

33:44

tied to the baggage of the past.

33:46

You know, I've always been sort of

33:48

bullish on Corey Booker, but I do

33:51

think that anyone who ran for president

33:53

in 2020, Kamala Harris learned this the

33:55

hard way, but anyone who raised their

33:58

hand during that presidential primary, these far

34:00

left positions on cultural issues, on economic

34:02

issues, on immigration issues. I just think,

34:04

and Booker was one of those people,

34:07

that is going to come back if

34:09

you ever wanted to run for president

34:11

again to haunt it. So I think

34:14

Democrats are going to need a look

34:16

past the left. I don't think AOC

34:18

is frankly going to wear well if

34:21

you ever wanted to run for president.

34:23

Bernie's out. And I think anyone who,

34:25

you know, bought into that. left-wing dogma

34:28

from the past is going to have

34:30

that saddled against them if they ever

34:32

want to run for president. So I

34:35

think looking at some of the new

34:37

governors more in Shapiro I think are

34:39

two two names that really catch my

34:41

eye but there there are a few

34:44

other up-and-comers I like Jared Polis personally

34:46

in Colorado. he's someone who actually has

34:48

really fought the bureaucracy and tried to

34:51

get things done. You know, I'm not

34:53

sure if he's quite as, you know,

34:55

whether he wants to run for president

34:58

or has quite the same political ambitions,

35:00

but he's someone too who who's governing

35:02

model in Colorado is well worth looking

35:05

at. Well, just as a footnote here

35:07

during the now, you know, during the

35:09

Supreme Court election where we tested out

35:12

all of the, all of the different

35:14

culture war, all of the different themes.

35:16

One of the things that kept coming

35:18

up over and over again is that

35:21

the radical left wants to make Wisconsin

35:23

were like California and that is, that's

35:25

a diss. I'm not sure that you

35:28

could say, people, you, they want, these

35:30

people want to make Wisconsin more like

35:32

Pennsylvania. That doesn't, that doesn't have the

35:35

same resonance. But there is that sense.

35:37

It's also interesting that Elon Musk had

35:39

a very deceptive campaign. It was text

35:42

messages that look like they were supporting

35:44

Susan Crawford. Reason I'm bringing this up

35:46

is for people who think that the

35:49

answer is to move further to the

35:51

left. The part of the Trump strategy.

35:53

was to paint every single Democrat as

35:55

if they were a far left candidate

35:58

who raised their hands, who supported defunding

36:00

the police, who supported the incarceration, who

36:02

were all in on trans athletes playing

36:05

in girl sports, all of that. So

36:07

from the point of view of the

36:09

Republicans, this is their playbook to portray

36:12

every single Democrat as far left. So

36:14

I'm not sure the answer is then

36:16

to nominate somebody from the far left.

36:19

Okay, in the few minutes... Sorry, really

36:21

quickly. One of Wisconsin-centric, who ran against

36:23

Ron Johnson in 2022, who adopted some

36:26

of those things, Mandela Barnes, and on

36:28

a year where Democrats were winning a

36:30

lot of these close Senate races, Mandela

36:32

Barnes lost, right? So there is a

36:35

price you pay when you adopt... you

36:37

know especially on crime and you know

36:39

those those very important cultural issues when

36:42

you're too far to the left it's

36:44

it's gonna cost you and it could

36:46

cost you very dearly in close elections

36:49

okay this this this hurts because you

36:51

know yes here in Wisconsin if if

36:53

Mandela Barnes was the Democratic candidate against

36:56

Ron Johnson if he had gotten the

36:58

same number of votes as the Democratic

37:00

governor Tony Evers was on the ballot

37:03

at the same time Ron Johnson would

37:05

not be United States Senator, so there

37:07

were clearly Democrats who said, yeah, I'm

37:09

willing to vote for Democrats up and

37:12

down the ballot, but Mandela barns, just,

37:14

you know, with the bullish ice t-shirts

37:16

and, you know, it was too much.

37:19

Okay, one last media question. Are you

37:21

remember the White House Correspondence Association? Do

37:23

you ever go to those events? Are

37:26

you one of the people to show

37:28

up at the White House Correspondence Association

37:30

Big Shinig every year? So full disclosure

37:33

full disclosure I have been I've been

37:35

to the dinner I've been to some

37:37

of the parties I'm not a member

37:40

of the of the Association though I

37:42

haven't covered you know I never covered

37:44

the White House specifically as a beat

37:47

but look I I To me, there's

37:49

a part of me that just says

37:51

good riddance. Okay, okay, that's what I

37:53

was going on. Everybody outside of Washington

37:56

hates this thing. Hates this event where

37:58

you have, everybody gets dressed up in

38:00

a black tie and they hang out

38:03

with the beautiful people from Hollywood and

38:05

you have the reporters who are sitting

38:07

at the table with the people they're

38:10

writing about and it just feels so

38:12

self indulging. And every year, it looks

38:14

bad this year. How do you read

38:17

it? Did they give in to pressure?

38:19

They decide they had hired a comedian,

38:21

a woman who was clearly going to

38:24

have some Trump-centric votes, and then they

38:26

decided at the last minute, you know

38:28

what? Let's, for the first time ever,

38:30

let's do without a comedian, we're not

38:33

going to have it, we're going to

38:35

be focusing, because, I don't know, we're

38:37

going to focus on ourselves, whatever. Kind

38:40

of, cavy, cavy. Well, how did you

38:42

read that? Not a good look for

38:44

a court. Not a member of the

38:47

association. So I'll speak as an outsider

38:49

on that on that subject. But you

38:51

know, I am sort of, well, I

38:54

shouldn't say surprise, but I'm a little

38:56

bit struck by the fact that they

38:58

have not used their leverage, the media.

39:01

covering the White House of not use

39:03

their leverage and work together if they

39:05

actually care about sort of their own

39:07

interests. When the AP was kicked out

39:10

of the pool, you know, I know

39:12

everyone had every individual network and every

39:14

individual publication has to make their own

39:17

choices, but I would have just. tried

39:19

to band together and say we're not

39:21

going to show up in the briefing

39:24

room. Frankly, those, you don't really make

39:26

a whole lot of news anyway. Not

39:28

being in the briefing room doesn't really

39:31

deprive you of a whole lot other

39:33

than maybe some televised sound bites for

39:35

the press secretary. And, you know, let's

39:38

see what the White House, how the

39:40

White House would react if Cat-Turd is

39:42

the only person there asking questions of

39:44

the press. They might like that. See,

39:47

this is the question. Well,

39:49

they haven't tested that proposition and candidly

39:51

early. No, and I can, you know,

39:53

we think we know this Trump does

39:55

like the attention from, I mean, for

39:57

as much as the attacks, the mainstream

40:00

oppress. that he does crave the mainstream

40:02

attention at least in some in some

40:04

with some networks and with some individuals

40:06

so you know if there was any

40:08

kind of working together and actually you

40:10

know actually doing what an association often

40:12

does which is sticking together and having

40:14

the media outlets you know making like-minded

40:16

decisions then I think they would have

40:19

more leverage but clearly every no one's

40:21

really sticking their neck out to defend

40:23

the AP and everyone's going on with

40:25

their daily business. So as long as

40:27

that dynamic, same thing with the law

40:29

firms, by the way. I was just

40:31

going to say that. Yep. Yeah, I

40:33

mean, there is this collective action problem

40:35

where I think actually if you work

40:38

together, you actually could get get sessions.

40:40

And Trump does again Trump does want

40:42

that to be to see this press

40:44

secretary sparred with the media and actually

40:46

like getting the attention from from from

40:48

big names in the in the in

40:50

the press but. uh... no one said

40:52

that we're not going to show up

40:54

or you know you can you can

40:57

have your your sick offense you know

40:59

ask questions no no one's actually gotten

41:01

to that point and frankly as long

41:03

as that's gonna as long as the

41:05

white house correspondence association all the members

41:07

are have different interests and they don't

41:09

stick together have different interests and they

41:11

don't stick together the white house is

41:13

going to have to have their own

41:16

interests and not on the same page

41:18

and the white house knows what it

41:20

wants so they're they're winning the fight

41:22

the fight No, and you're right to

41:24

point out the same thing that's happening

41:26

with the big law firms. If all

41:28

the big law firms basically, you know,

41:30

went, you know, shoulder to shoulder, went

41:32

to the federal court and say this

41:35

is clearly illegal, this is clearly unconstitutional,

41:37

you know, this goes to the very,

41:39

very heart of the rule of law.

41:41

I think they would win. I think

41:43

they would win in court. I think

41:45

that if they showed solidarity, they would

41:47

be able to blow past this and

41:49

that Trump would blink. But what Trump

41:51

has figured out is that he can

41:54

separate them out. He can make a

41:56

deal with Paul Weiss. Yeah, you know,

41:58

General Block may stand against him, but

42:00

then he gets, you know, wilky and

42:02

far, which kind of surprised me. it

42:04

surprised me I'd be interested in your

42:06

take on all this you know I'm

42:08

not shocked by Trump's agenda or what

42:10

he is attempting to do I didn't

42:13

see the role of Elon Musk quite

42:15

as dramatic as it was What has

42:17

shocked me has been the collapse of

42:19

civil society in its willingness to push

42:21

back against these predations. You know, and

42:23

I'm talking, we're talking about the media,

42:25

we're talking about entertainment, we're talking about,

42:27

you know, private companies, but also, particularly

42:30

the law firms, because you figure you're

42:32

a big billion dollar law firm if

42:34

you can't stand up for yourself, who

42:36

can? And I will say like one

42:38

of Trump's political strengths is understanding sort

42:40

of the fundamental weaknesses and the cowardice

42:42

of a lot of his enemies right

42:44

even and he's exposed sort of that

42:46

divide between high-minded principles You know democracy

42:49

dies in darkness the and then but

42:51

not when you're under pressure not apparently

42:53

when you're facing political pressure from the

42:55

president So I mean the lot of

42:57

he's really especially in the second term

42:59

is really tried to to wedge those

43:01

or really poor salt in the wounds

43:03

of some of his enemies and to

43:05

maybe to his own surprise they've backed

43:08

down with with a speed and many

43:10

of them at least have backed down

43:12

with the speed that I even I

43:14

didn't. see comment. So not a lot

43:16

about the kind of the political moment

43:18

and the mood of the country and

43:20

the mood of well in terms of

43:22

the way. By the way, yeah, like

43:24

we were also seeing the weakness of

43:27

institutions, right? We assume the one of

43:29

the strength of American democracy is the

43:31

is the strength of institutions and we

43:33

saw this is not just a Trump

43:35

phenomenon, but we've seen the weakening of

43:37

leader institutional leaders in all aspects of

43:39

society and Trump is just really kind

43:41

of proven that with with his aggressive

43:43

moves and the surrender by so many

43:46

of these law firms and media institutions.

43:48

Well he started, you know, I mean

43:50

he started with with the Republican Party

43:52

and he had the reptilian instinct to

43:54

go after the weakness and the phoniness

43:56

and to divide people up and now

43:58

he's spreading it to the rest of

44:00

society. You know, Josh, I have to

44:02

have you back because we have to

44:05

talk about the new Biden books that

44:07

are coming out, wanted to get to

44:09

that. I actually started reading, you know,

44:11

the first one, and boy, I will

44:13

tell you that I have lots and

44:15

lots and lots of questions, and I

44:17

think Democrats are, Democrats right now are

44:19

having a great week. But they're going

44:21

to go through some things when they

44:24

have to really confront, I think, the

44:26

Biden years, and I don't think they've

44:28

gotten that out of their system yet.

44:30

Oh, yeah, I mean, I haven't started,

44:32

I know, I know, I get Jonathan

44:34

Allen and Amy Parnes's book just came

44:36

out. I'm gonna have to read it,

44:38

but look, I'm part of the Democrat.

44:41

Where did I try and lose his

44:43

political altitude? It was, it was certainly

44:45

the age factor at the debate, but

44:47

it was also lying about Afghanistan, like

44:49

telling everyone in the first year of

44:51

the presidency at a chaotic situation that

44:53

was just. brutal to watch on television.

44:55

But what you saw before your own

44:57

eyes was not the reality. And that

45:00

was where the Biden numbers went downhill.

45:02

That's where he lost credibility. You see

45:04

Ron Klein in one of these books.

45:06

I was saying, oh, yeah, of course,

45:08

you know, Biden wasn't with it during

45:10

the debate. That's not what he said

45:12

publicly. He lied to the press when

45:14

he was trying to defend. That's very

45:16

awkward. And it's not, that's how you

45:19

lose, that's how you lose credibility. It's

45:21

not just the one, it's not just

45:23

the Trump, it is the fact that

45:25

people who lead institutions, people in positions

45:27

of influence, feel like they don't need

45:29

to tell the truth. And that's how

45:31

you get to this, this degraded position

45:33

we're in right now. That is exactly

45:35

right. Josh Kroshauer, thank you so much

45:38

for joining me. We do this every

45:40

week. It's more important than ever to

45:42

remind ourselves that we are not the

45:44

crazy ones.