0:10

Welcome back to the To the

0:12

Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes joined by

0:14

my good friend Adam Kinsinger. Adam, good

0:16

to talk with you again. It's great

0:19

to be with you and I gotta tell

0:21

you about 30 minutes ago I was pretty

0:23

close to not being with you or with

0:25

anybody because I was out doing sprints like

0:27

I was 27 years old on you know

0:30

we have an old guy now. And I'm

0:32

like you know immensely I'm running as hard

0:34

as a cam. I'm like, honestly in my

0:36

head I'm like I still got it. Like

0:38

I can still do this and then. felt

0:40

the hammy almost go and I arrested it

0:43

just in time and I learned a lesson

0:45

which is at 47 you can still run

0:47

like you were 27 you just shouldn't still

0:49

run like you were 27 well

0:51

you you ought to come out

0:53

to Wisconsin and watch me walking

0:56

my dog someday it'll make you

0:58

feel better about yourself okay I'm

1:00

in Okay, so we have to talk about

1:02

Donald Trump's, you know, threats to you and

1:04

others with the pardon. We have to talk

1:06

about his getting rolled by Vladimir Putin again

1:09

yesterday, and I want to talk about Chuck

1:11

Schumer and the Democrats and the CR, but

1:13

I want to start off by just asking

1:16

you and get into it as like, you

1:18

know, how are you doing? How are you

1:20

feeling about this? And the reason I'm

1:22

asking this is because... I think we're

1:24

all, every day we get up and

1:27

we go, oh my God, it feels

1:29

like it's worse and crazier than it

1:31

was the day before. And frankly, it

1:33

is. It's not just your imagination

1:35

that you feel that way. And

1:38

I think part of it is

1:40

just this, you know, look, you

1:42

and I have been warning about

1:44

this, we've been raving about all

1:46

this, and yet the speed and

1:48

the volume is overwhelming. So

1:50

how are you doing? It's it's rough.

1:53

I mean, I'll be honest with you. It's rough

1:55

and I think the thing and you struggle with

1:57

this. I'm sure too is you know people look

1:59

up to us for the tone of the day,

2:01

right? It's kind of like, okay, what's Charlie saying

2:03

about this? How do I feel same with Adam?

2:06

And so you have to put on a good

2:08

front. And but the reality of it is, I

2:10

mean, I, you know, just today I wake up and

2:12

I'm looking through and I see that. You know,

2:14

we basically deleted the entire database

2:17

of 37 Ukrainian children that have

2:19

been kidnapped by Russia. You know,

2:21

the US Institute of Peace is

2:23

being taken over even though Doge

2:25

has no right into the US

2:27

Institute of Peace. I know the

2:29

USIP very well. I worked with

2:31

them. And that stuff gets overwhelming.

2:33

And so on the one hand, it's

2:35

like personal life. pretty good because you

2:38

know it's nice honestly it's nice being out

2:40

of Congress I'm making more money than I

2:42

did in Congress we you know I have

2:44

some more free time that stuff's nice

2:46

in terms of the fact that I can't

2:48

turn off my passion for my country and

2:51

sometimes I wish I could it's obviously a

2:53

lot harder and but I think the important

2:55

thing to remember here and this is

2:57

a very important point I think for

3:00

your audience is like look guys take that

3:02

big burden that you that I carry

3:04

you know take that burden you carry

3:06

for your country off your shoulder because

3:08

none of us Charlie's not going to

3:10

change the world I'm not going to

3:12

change the world you're not going to

3:14

change the world we all can together

3:16

but we're not going to do it

3:18

individually and when we get exhausted we

3:21

drop out of the team right basically

3:23

quit and that's the key because I'm

3:25

going to tell you the trumpers are

3:27

really Every day of chaos, this fires

3:30

them up. It's like taking a sniff

3:32

of cocaine. For us, it exhausts us.

3:34

And this is where it's like an

3:37

asymmetric fight. No, I think that's exactly right.

3:39

I mean, there's two things. You get exhausted,

3:41

you get distracted, and then you get depressed,

3:43

which is exactly what they would like you

3:45

to do. And I think that, you know,

3:47

your advice is right, is you need to

3:49

take a deep breath and realize that, okay,

3:51

you can control what you can control, and

3:53

there's a lot you can't control. And let's

3:55

be honest about it. I have to say,

3:57

you know, when I was on the radio

3:59

and in Milwaukee back in the

4:01

before times and in a distant

4:04

in a distant galaxy. You know,

4:06

I would think, boy, you know, if

4:08

I don't do this, this won't get

4:10

said or people won't know this. And

4:12

the reality is right now, you know

4:14

what, the, you know, whatever needs to

4:16

be said will probably be said. Now,

4:18

having said all that. I do think it's

4:20

important as you point out to

4:22

be the voice for people to

4:24

realize that, okay, you know what,

4:26

you're not in this alone. I

4:28

think isolation is a real problem.

4:31

And I know it's become a cliche.

4:33

They, you know, we're not the crazy ones,

4:35

but I mean, there is that, that, that.

4:37

that moment where you're just watching the

4:39

insanity and going, wait, this doesn't make

4:42

any sense. Why are they behaving this

4:44

way? Why are people not responding this

4:46

way? And the answer is, you're not

4:48

alone in all of that. I mean,

4:50

you may have these loud voices and

4:53

they may be dominating social media, but

4:55

trust me, and we have to stay

4:57

in touch with one another. But these

4:59

are tough times and, and you know, I...

5:01

I think everyone, one of us has

5:03

that, that temptation to say, you know

5:05

what, let's devote ourselves to something other

5:08

than politics. You know, I, you know,

5:10

I find that constant temptation, I need

5:12

to get off the daily hamster wheel,

5:14

I need to, you know, get away

5:16

from the crazy. And yet, you know,

5:18

I'm haunted by what Charles Krauthamer once

5:20

wrote, he said, you know, you have

5:23

to get the politics right. because if

5:25

you don't, nothing else will work. It's all

5:27

downstream from that. I mean, I would like

5:29

to think that politics, and it used to

5:32

be that way, right? You could put it

5:34

in a box over here and then live

5:36

your life and do other things, but

5:38

history tells us that if you get

5:40

the politics wrong, then the effects

5:42

on society will be devastating and

5:44

we're in that moment. So, well,

5:47

I'm glad you're, you're, yeah. Yeah,

5:49

and I think that's an interesting point

5:51

is like, you know, you know, you

5:53

know, you know, The fact anybody watching

5:55

us right now and then obviously you

5:57

and I we're in the let's call

5:59

it 10 or 15% of Americans who

6:01

actually pay attention to politics. Believe it

6:03

or not, most Americans don't. And in

6:05

a way it's a privilege because it's

6:07

like we are part of a class

6:09

of people that can determine the

6:11

future of this country the way it

6:14

goes. And the thing I try to

6:16

remember, and this has kind of been

6:18

my message of late, because you know,

6:20

where it gets discouraging to see people

6:22

like Elon Musk who's literally his, is

6:24

worth half a trillion dollars. He got

6:26

his money from us in the federal

6:29

government. Totally and telling us what we

6:31

can and can't live without. But it's

6:33

the remembrance that this still is not

6:35

a country of billionaires and powerful people.

6:37

It's a country that you know, we

6:39

can, it still is our country. And

6:41

I think, you know, if we

6:44

quit believing that, then it becomes,

6:46

you know, Elon Musk country. But

6:48

it's not the case. Like, yes,

6:50

we have to wait until an

6:52

election, but it's still is our

6:54

country. And I think, I think,

6:56

it's still is our country. And

6:58

I think, I think it's, I

7:01

think, it's still is our country.

7:03

And I think, I think, I

7:05

think it's still is our country.

7:07

honest about it. We've been doing

7:09

this now for nine or ten

7:11

years, some of us, you know, and there

7:13

have been, there was all of that commentary,

7:15

the walls are closing in or this is,

7:17

you know, going to change and everything, and

7:19

then it doesn't happen. The movie we thought

7:22

we were in was canceled. and we're in

7:24

this dystopian movie and and there are those

7:26

and I think that was one of the

7:28

reasons why people dropped out after the election

7:30

I think they were just too much they

7:32

that you know there was too much stress

7:34

there were too many threats there was too

7:36

much false hope a lot doesn't make any

7:38

sense I mean I think that's part of

7:40

the problem is that things don't make sense

7:43

that you know and I keep coming you

7:45

know we keep coming back to what we

7:47

thought the world was going to look like

7:49

on January 7th what we know about that

7:51

and to think that the entire Republican Party

7:53

basically decided to shrug its shoulders and say

7:55

it's okay and that Trump would be back.

7:57

If someone would have told us that on

7:59

January... 37th, 2021, our heads would have

8:02

exploded. It would have been utterly

8:04

inconceivable. Did I ever tell you, by the

8:06

way, I, and I've wanted to go back

8:08

and find it, but I remember the, the

8:10

bulwark podcast you did the day after January

8:12

6th, and I think you had some of

8:15

the contributors on it, it was just kind

8:17

of like a panel. We're gonna talk about

8:19

what happened. And to the T, every one

8:21

of you all, and I even thought it

8:24

when I remember, I'm running on the treadmill,

8:26

on the treadmill, listening to it, listening

8:28

to it. and every one of you all including

8:30

me thought there's no way this isn't the

8:32

thing that changes the party and I don't

8:34

even think there was any contrarian voice on

8:36

the podcast that day everybody's like yeah I

8:38

mean it may take it but like there's

8:40

no way and we didn't wake up from

8:43

it but by the way that's the other

8:45

interesting thing because you talk about how we

8:47

woke up even after this election with a

8:49

different reality than we were hoping for this

8:51

is why sub stack has grown so much

8:53

as an example yeah uh... is because people

8:56

now it's one thing to get news fed

8:58

to you and i still think news plays

9:00

an important role but i think people are

9:02

lacking community and sub stack is like that

9:04

you know if they put a comment under

9:06

my article or under your podcast or

9:08

article and they they read other people saying

9:11

the same thing it does give us a

9:13

sense of community and i think that's where

9:15

why you've seen subset that grows so much

9:17

and i think that's why because people are

9:19

are desperate to know there's other people like

9:22

us out there and by the way folks

9:24

there are. Okay so this was one of

9:26

my big surprises after the election

9:28

when the cable TV ratings created

9:30

I thought you know that's it

9:32

for sub stack who's gonna want

9:34

to read you know our commentary

9:36

anymore in fact the absolute opposite

9:38

happened as far as I know

9:40

to pretty much everybody and I

9:42

think a couple things happened was

9:44

that people We have an attention

9:46

economy, we also have a trust

9:48

economy, and people were looking for

9:51

those kindred spirits, those voices that

9:53

they could in fact trust. And I

9:55

saw a chart the other day about

9:57

what's happened to legacy

9:59

media. newspaper reporter. My

10:01

father was a newspaper

10:03

reporter. I think since

10:05

1990 there's been an 80%

10:07

decline in employment in newspapers and

10:10

print journalism and maybe it's broader

10:12

than that. But we've had this

10:14

vast historic collapse of traditional media.

10:17

And that has huge consequences, and

10:19

that is huge consequence. And then

10:21

you have the corporate media, which

10:24

has decided that, well, it can't

10:26

decide what it wants to be,

10:28

right? Does it bow the need?

10:30

Does it give in? And so

10:33

the market for independent journalism has

10:35

never been greater. I think that's

10:37

true. And that's one thing that does

10:40

keep us saying. And I have to

10:42

say one of the things I really

10:44

love about the newsletters is looking at

10:46

the comment section because you realize there

10:48

are really really thoughtful people who are

10:50

looking to have serious dialogue and discussions

10:52

about what's going on. Yep. Yep. And I and

10:54

and. Well, I was going to say

10:56

too, you know, one of the things,

10:58

I remember in 2010 or 2011, like,

11:00

you know, when I was running for

11:02

Congress, going to the Bloomington Panagraph. Yeah,

11:05

back in the ancient days, going to

11:07

the Bloomington Panograph for the editorial board

11:09

and it was an actual editorial board.

11:11

And I go into this ginous building

11:13

that I grew up driving by and

11:15

being like, holy cow, that's the newspaper.

11:17

And it was filled with people. Now I

11:20

mean just 10 or 12 years later you

11:22

go there and it's a skeleton of itself.

11:24

It's totally shocking and And I think you

11:26

know that's been a problem is you know

11:29

who reports on you know what happens at

11:31

the girls high school anymore You know no

11:33

or not the girls high school the girls

11:36

high school base, you know softball team or

11:38

whatever and you lose that connection to local

11:40

government but again that's a real sub stat

11:42

can play and that's that's frankly what people

11:45

are begging for and whatever people beg for

11:47

they will create in this economy and this

11:49

environment still at least at least temporarily no

11:51

you know I grew up around a newspapers

11:53

I remember you know my dad bringing me

11:55

to the newspaper he worked at what used

11:58

to be the old Milwaukee Sentinel and my

12:00

first job was at the Milwaukee Journal.

12:02

And I always thought of the Daily

12:04

newspaper as this miracle that you would,

12:06

you know, have all these people together

12:08

and they would produce it and it

12:10

would come out every single day. I

12:12

mean, I was literally, you know

12:14

how old I am, you know,

12:16

you're talking about your hammy, is

12:18

that I was actually, around the

12:20

newspaper in 1963 and my dad

12:22

ripped off all the teletype reports

12:24

when John F. Kennedy was shot

12:26

and I have it in the

12:28

book that I kept over here.

12:30

But I have to say that

12:32

just recently I watched that documentary

12:34

about Catherine Graham, you know, the

12:36

publisher of the Washington Post, which

12:38

was very inspirational but ultimately very,

12:40

very depressing because you realize that

12:43

whole era when newspapers... Had that

12:45

kind of a role, but also

12:47

when there were guardrails when a you

12:49

know led to be that

12:51

two plus two equal four

12:53

not five there were consequences

12:56

there was accountability the system

12:58

work and I'm watching that

13:00

thinking That's that era is gone

13:02

that that once existed was gone.

13:04

Okay. Well, let's just let's just

13:06

dive into this I was listening

13:08

to some of the commentary yesterday

13:11

after the Trump Putin phone call

13:13

And it is amazing how some

13:15

people are just willing to say,

13:17

well, you know, the White House

13:19

readout says that we've taken a

13:22

step toward peace. I don't know,

13:24

Adam, what your take was, well,

13:26

I complete bullshit. I mean, Vladimir

13:28

Putin rolled Trump again. Vladimir Putin's

13:30

big victory was getting Donald Trump

13:33

on the phone engaged in the

13:35

negotiations because Donald Trump is a

13:37

notoriously terrible negotiator. He's unprepared. He's

13:40

easily sucked up to the flattery.

13:42

And as a result. Vladimir

13:45

Putin is just playing him.

13:47

I mean, this former KGB agent

13:49

plays him like putty. He

13:51

enjoys humiliating Trump, and Trump

13:53

doesn't seem to understand that

13:56

he's being humiliated or in

13:58

some weird sick... S&M thing

14:01

actually likes it has this

14:03

endless capacity for appeasement so

14:05

your take on on what

14:07

happened what happened yesterday actually yesterday

14:09

being Tuesday and think of how it

14:11

started like he kept Trump waiting for

14:13

an hour that's what I mean the

14:15

humiliation yeah and Like and Trump then

14:18

gets on there and it's you know

14:20

what I would have done if I

14:22

was president he kept me waiting five

14:24

minutes is hang up he can reach

14:26

out look and let's keep in mind

14:29

let's set the table here the Russian

14:31

economy is on the virgin collapse and

14:33

they have incredible inflation they've sold their

14:35

gold assets to try to fund this

14:37

war they've lost 800,000 men so they're

14:40

gonna run out of offensive combat power

14:42

this year period and and so you

14:44

know certainly the United States in the

14:46

West is in the capboard seat here.

14:48

But Trump just simply, whether he's got

14:50

a decent affection for Putin or

14:52

he's playing the, I'm a great

14:54

negotiator game, Putin knows how to

14:56

own him. And so they walk out of

14:58

that, keep in mind, you go back a

15:01

week, Ukraine agreed to a one month

15:03

ceasefire. Donald Trump said at that

15:05

time, he goes, if they don't agree

15:07

to the ceasefire, then we're going to

15:09

put devastating sanctions on Russia, right? That's

15:12

what they said. We already have. Yeah,

15:14

well, and he said, but we can

15:16

put more on we can we can

15:19

cause we can and he didn't he

15:21

hasn't so he needs with Putin

15:23

and then what happens? Well,

15:25

Putin says, okay, well, we'll

15:27

we'll cut the attacks on

15:30

the on the energy infrastructure.

15:32

Yeah, okay. Well, guess what?

15:34

Shortly after that, Vladimir,

15:36

five minutes later, attacks

15:39

the energy infrastructure. of Ukraine

15:41

and Ukraine fires back. So yeah, he's walking

15:43

all over Trump and I mean if I

15:45

was Trump I'd be furious but I think

15:48

Trump's beyond the capacity of being furious if

15:50

it's somebody like Vladimir Putin for whatever reason

15:52

he looks up to him and Tim Jong-on.

15:55

Okay well for whatever reason and I

15:57

think the psychology of this is

15:59

actually fascinating. What's going on here?

16:01

Because, again, the one consistent thing

16:03

about Trump over the last 10

16:05

years is that he has never

16:07

once criticized Vladimir Putin. He's never

16:09

broken with him. I don't know,

16:11

did you catch the Laura Ingram

16:13

interview, which was actually rather extraordinary?

16:15

She's a Trump loyalist. And at

16:17

the same time, he's talking about

16:19

we want more trade with Russia,

16:21

we want to, you know, improve

16:23

our relations with Russia, he's he's

16:25

ripping on Canada, you know, the

16:27

Canada is the great enemy. What

16:29

was interesting is that Laura Ingram, I

16:32

mean, it was one of those moments

16:34

where even she's thinking, you know, you're

16:36

not making any sense here. This sounds,

16:38

this sounds insane. She didn't even try

16:40

to pretend that that he was making

16:42

any sense. But, no, but, but, but in

16:45

a negotiation. If one of you

16:47

plays the long game, which Vladimir

16:49

Putin always does, and Donald Trump

16:51

goes from moment to moment with

16:54

the memory of a goldfish and

16:56

just wants to declare whatever you

16:58

give him, whatever shit sandwich you

17:00

give him, he'll say is a

17:03

flame and yon that I created

17:05

in the best ever, it's Trump

17:07

steak. The asymmetry is going to

17:09

is going to play out here

17:11

and Donald Trump makes one concession

17:14

after another to Russia. Russia has

17:16

made no concessions whatsoever. Russia is

17:18

demanding a complete cutoff of all

17:21

aid to Ukraine as a condition

17:23

of this. Donald Trump is already

17:25

signaling that yes, we're going to

17:27

recognize your control over Crimea. I

17:29

mean, it's just, you know, does

17:31

anyone think that this is going

17:34

to... Result in peace? I mean,

17:36

some of the media commentary just

17:38

seemed so naive that these, you

17:40

know, one small step toward peace,

17:42

bullshit, there's no step toward peace

17:44

here. This is, this, peace is not

17:46

Vladimir Putin's goal. And let's

17:48

think about all of our friends

17:50

who always, you know, worship Ronald

17:52

Reagan, right? That don't have a

17:54

right to worship Ronald Reagan. What

17:56

does it Ronald Reagan always said,

17:58

or he said? the gold water speech.

18:01

We can have peace and we can have

18:03

it this next second surrender, right? And that's

18:05

exactly what Trump is saying is basically if

18:07

we give Russia everything they want, we can

18:09

have peace. Well, trust me, we sure can.

18:12

If we'd have given Hitler, you know, France

18:14

and the UK, we could have had peace

18:16

with Germany. But at some point you take

18:18

a stand and you say it's not worth

18:20

it. And I think the crazy thing is

18:22

like, you know, Donald Trump has basic, do

18:24

you remember how? When Barack Obama, you

18:26

know, negotiated the deal with Iran, we

18:28

said, gosh, he looked so desperate. Iran

18:31

rolled him, they took him for a

18:33

ride. And I still believe they did.

18:35

But this is exactly what's happening to

18:37

Donald Trump. He's made it very clear

18:39

through the campaign, and since the campaign,

18:41

that come hell or high water, he's

18:44

going to get a deal. in way

18:46

worse and Russia can sniff this out

18:48

Russia knows Vladimir Putin knows his desperation

18:50

and so he's like well look I

18:52

can I know I can sustain the

18:54

war effort another six months so let's

18:57

just Let's make Trump sweat and

18:59

see how desperate he gets. And

19:01

honestly, Charlie, we're going to see

19:03

desperation. He is. I will not

19:05

be surprised if ultimately he agrees

19:07

that we'll stop aid and Intel

19:10

sharing with Ukraine for a ceasefire.

19:12

I have no doubt. Well, he's

19:14

already done. He's already cut it

19:16

off after that tantrum in the

19:18

White House. I don't think Russia

19:20

needs to sniff it out because

19:23

Donald Trump's flop sweat is so

19:25

obvious for anybody to see. to see

19:27

it. It's like the wall, you know,

19:29

the wall with Mexico that Mexico paid

19:31

for. I don't know that that's going

19:34

to be the case, particularly if in

19:36

fact that the headline is that you

19:38

have Russian tanks rolling into Kiev, which,

19:40

you know, God forbid will never happen.

19:43

All right. So the other big story

19:45

of the last couple of days has

19:47

been Donald Trump's war against the judiciary.

19:49

And I just want to start off

19:51

with what might be an uncomfortable

19:53

reality for some of our...

19:56

viewers and listeners, is that

19:58

Donald Trump argument

20:00

the fight that he wants right

20:02

now. He wants to fight over Venezuelan

20:05

gang members and if he's going to

20:07

abuse his power and defy courts, this

20:09

is the issue that he wants. He

20:12

wants to have drug dealers, rapists, murderers

20:14

and say, I am keeping you safe,

20:16

the judges are letting you go. And

20:19

I don't think that it's hard to

20:21

keep in your head two thoughts at

20:23

the same time that these thugs should

20:26

be incarcerated, they should be deported, but...

20:28

We are a nation of laws and

20:31

we must have due process. I wonder

20:33

how thin that that principle is right

20:35

now because he has been remarkably successful

20:38

in getting Maga to line up with

20:40

his attack on the rule of law

20:42

and he's been very successful in delegitimizing

20:45

the criminal justice system and you see

20:47

this chorus out there and you listen

20:49

to this you see some of the

20:52

same stuff that I see. So he's

20:54

created. of tens of millions of people

20:56

who actually don't think that we need

20:59

due process and don't think necessarily that

21:01

we need to listen to the court?

21:03

Yeah, it's very worrisome. And here's the,

21:06

and you talk about we've got a

21:08

whole two thoughts on our head at

21:10

the same time. Here's my concern and

21:13

my friendly advice to the left, okay?

21:15

I think from the 2016 to the

21:17

2020 time frame, they fell into the

21:20

trap of everything Trump is for we're

21:22

against, right? Yeah. That's why I think

21:24

inherently they were against border security, even

21:27

when Biden was president, because Trump was

21:29

for it. And you've got to be

21:31

very careful to just knee-jerk reaction opposed

21:34

everything Trump does, you can walk that

21:36

important line. And so on the one

21:38

hand saying, look, yes. Venezuelan drug dealers

21:41

should not be allowed in the United

21:43

States. And honestly, if you're here illegally,

21:45

you need to expect to be deported.

21:48

Now, do I believe... We should be

21:50

driving the police wagons around looking for

21:52

anybody that's brown. No. But if you're

21:55

here illegally, there is an expectation that

21:57

if you do something, you get pulled

21:59

over whatever, you might get deported. Okay,

22:02

that's like actually the law in the

22:04

United States. But when you hear the

22:06

stories about potentially, we don't fully know

22:09

the story because this is just his

22:11

side, but this guy who had. gang

22:13

tattoos what they perceived as gang tattoos

22:16

that was Venezuelan that actually was an

22:18

artist yeah came here filing for asylum

22:20

and has disappeared into the El Salvador

22:23

prison look Charlie my wife is Salvadorian

22:25

and knows you know she knows all

22:28

about Buchelli and the Salvadorian prison this

22:30

is not compliant with any human rights

22:32

you basically never see the sun

22:34

you disappear into a black hole a

22:37

city of like 50,000 criminals it probably

22:39

makes the gulags look like a five-star

22:41

resort And we potentially sent somebody there

22:44

that was completely innocent and that we

22:46

can't even get a read on where

22:48

he is now. And those are the

22:51

kinds of things that I think we

22:53

can focus on and be very clear

22:55

about, yes, we have no compassion for

22:58

cartel members and drug dealers, no compassion.

23:00

at the same time we do have

23:02

a rule of law because right now

23:05

if it's the drug dealers today it's

23:07

the what what is the communists tomorrow

23:09

the gays the next day and you

23:12

the next day right that's that's like

23:14

what you're running into no and and

23:16

now let's talk about John Roberts because

23:19

The whole controversy really escalated when you

23:21

had a federal judge who said, look,

23:23

you cannot do this. And it looked

23:26

like they were defying him. Although Donald

23:28

Trump is now denying that. By the

23:30

way, the expiration date on Donald Trump,

23:33

not defying judges. I give it just

23:35

a couple of days before he reverses

23:37

himself on that. But you have Chief

23:40

Justice Roberts doing something very unusually issues

23:42

a rare statement, a rebuke of the

23:44

president saying we do not impeach judges

23:47

because we disagree with all of them.

23:49

Now, I mean, look, understandably, there's a

23:51

lot of people reacting with some degree

23:54

of snark. I'm one of them, which

23:56

is John Roberts, in many ways, contributed

23:58

to this. He enabled Donald Trump. He

24:01

immunized Donald Trump. Might be having some

24:03

buyers regret. But I thought it was

24:05

notable because the chief justice is recognizing

24:08

that. This is dangerous. This is a

24:10

dangerous moment and that he has to

24:12

push back on it. Elon Musk, members,

24:15

Republicans in Congress, are buying into this

24:17

notion that we're going to attack the

24:20

judiciary. I mean, this would be like

24:22

the last domino to fall in terms

24:24

of the breakdown of the constitutional order.

24:27

So your thoughts on John Roberts and

24:29

the way Maga is now lashing out.

24:31

at the Chief Justice. I think in

24:34

their hearts they think we're going to

24:36

bully him and Amy Coney Barrett into

24:38

getting back into line. I'm not sure

24:41

it works that way with Supreme Court

24:43

justices, but who knows? It doesn't work

24:45

like that. And look, it didn't work

24:48

with me like that. Like, let's just

24:50

take my example when I would go

24:52

against Trump and they would unleash hell

24:55

on me on the internet. I was

24:57

actually of the personality that it made.

24:59

It pissed me off more. And I

25:02

actually thought that's the way I work.

25:04

Yeah, right. And you can tell that

25:06

there are the Lindsay Grahams of the

25:09

world though. Yeah, there's the Lindsay Grahams,

25:11

Ted Graham. I can think of Ted

25:13

Cruz, Lindsay Grahams, Lindsay Grahams, Marko. Marko.

25:16

Marko. Oh, it's just like, what the

25:18

hell happened to you guys? Like, for

25:20

me, I'm like, seriously, it's like with

25:23

the, with the, with the jail threats

25:25

to us. I'm like, can bring it.

25:27

But anyway, yeah, so I think. I

25:30

think they're pushing too far by going

25:32

after Roberts and by going after Amy

25:34

Coney Barrett. These guys, I don't

25:36

think they fear for their safety. You

25:39

know, this idea, by the way, whenever

25:41

you hear politicians, say, gosh, I had

25:43

to vote for something because I'm afraid

25:46

I'm going to get assassinated. First off,

25:48

I don't actually believe it. I think

25:50

that's an excuse for the cowardice. And

25:53

secondly, obviously, if you do have... that

25:55

fear, then get out and get another

25:57

job. And I don't think Supreme Court

26:00

justices act in that. And I think

26:02

this has the potential of pissing them

26:04

off. And it actually can make somebody

26:07

like John Roberts more aware of the

26:09

fact that, look, they're serious about defining

26:11

judicial order. This isn't just entertainment anymore.

26:14

They are very serious. They're very serious

26:16

about it. And this is, look, it

26:19

literally is. I can honestly say. If

26:21

we all of a sudden say that

26:23

the Supreme Court has no purpose and

26:26

plays no role, I have a hard

26:28

time seeing how we get the union

26:30

back. So this really is the last

26:33

fire stop. You know, I think the

26:35

cool kid approach is to say, oh,

26:37

don't worry about it. You know, these,

26:40

these, the warnings about authoritarianism or autocracy

26:42

or the end of democracy, they're overblown.

26:44

And I think that's the real danger.

26:47

And it's very clear to me now

26:49

that you have members of members of

26:51

the judiciary. And of like the federal

26:54

society community who will realize, you know,

26:56

this is serious, this is really, really

26:58

grave. I think he needs sort of

27:01

connect the dots, the mass resignation of

27:03

these attorneys, some of whom had clerked

27:05

for Justice Scalia and Judge, you know,

27:08

Justice Kavanaugh, who are saying that, no,

27:10

this is just wrong. This is really

27:12

an assault on the rule of law.

27:15

And if you get members of the

27:17

court thinking that way. I think that

27:19

will be a positive development. And I

27:22

don't know that you can intimidate them

27:24

into going the other direction. So yeah,

27:26

Justice Roberts has a lot to answer

27:29

for. I think that one of the

27:31

things that has created the moment we're

27:33

in right now was that immunity decision?

27:36

Sure. Because right now you can tell

27:38

the Trump folks, the entire administration, is

27:40

acting without any fear that they will

27:43

ever be held accountable. that there is

27:45

no law no rule no one that

27:47

they will break that for which they

27:50

will be held accountable and you and

27:52

I could have predicted that would be

27:54

very very dangerous but the reality of

27:57

it is and the fact that they

27:59

are pushing the limits on a daily

28:01

basis has to be alarming to anybody

28:04

in the judiciary, whether you were appointed

28:06

by Barack Obama or even Donald Trump.

28:08

And this is a message. Here's a

28:11

message on this, which is, look, Trump's

28:13

asymmetric advantage, his superpower. is he will

28:16

always forgive you and always take you

28:18

back. Okay. Charlie Sykes, you could put

28:20

out an article tomorrow saying you were

28:23

wrong about Donald Trump and you love

28:25

him and you would be at the

28:27

White House within a week. Okay, I

28:30

could do the same thing. That is

28:32

a superpower of a cult leader. He'll

28:34

always take you back, but you can

28:37

never cross him again, but he'll

28:39

show you mercy. So I say that

28:41

to say to the... I don't even

28:43

like saying the left because it's not

28:46

the left. It's the same right, the

28:48

center in the left. So those of

28:50

us that are not Trump's is when

28:53

somebody like John Roberts does a good

28:55

thing. We can't necessarily sit here with

28:57

the opinion of while he already discredited

29:00

himself so we're never going to talk

29:02

to him again. Or when you see

29:04

a member of the house or you

29:07

know, you know how it is like

29:09

you see somebody that comes back and

29:11

like, you know what I was wrong

29:14

about Trump. I'm sorry you don't put

29:16

a 51% coalition together that way. You

29:18

have to welcome converts, right? I grew

29:21

up Baptist, we welcome converts, even from

29:23

the Catholic Church, like whatever it is,

29:25

right? Like walking the converts, even Catholics.

29:28

Well, I mean, it make you feel

29:30

better. You know, I was always anti-

29:32

Trump, but I still get on a

29:35

daily basis, you know, somebody on Blue

29:37

Sky saying, well, you built this, you

29:39

know, you were once conservative, whatever, whatever.

29:42

So what about Nicki Haley and Ron

29:44

DeSantis though? They seem out there. I

29:46

mean, Nick, that may be a difference.

29:49

I don't know, but you got a

29:51

theory on that. There's like a point

29:53

at which, I don't know, I mean.

29:56

I guess if you cross, well, let

29:58

me say this, so maybe if you've

30:00

crossed Trump in the past, you can,

30:03

you don't necessarily expect to get a

30:05

position in the administration. But I think

30:08

if Nikki Haley made the decision like,

30:10

I'm gonna go basically rub Trump's feet.

30:12

He would probably bring her back to

30:15

the White House and you know DeSantis

30:17

maybe just happened to cross him at

30:19

a vulnerable time and he won't forget

30:22

that but if he ever feels like

30:24

he needs Ron DeSantis he'll come back

30:26

to him but yeah there may be

30:29

like a line you can cross but

30:31

I gotta tell you especially people like

30:33

you and I who Trump never really

30:36

had he's obsessed with you and I

30:38

he knows your name he knows my

30:40

name he's obsessed with us because he's

30:43

never had us in the first place.

30:45

Did they ever show you what he

30:47

sent me? That he actually sent me

30:50

this this this newspaper? I don't know.

30:52

I don't know. I don't know that

30:54

I do. Hold on a second. Did

30:57

you say like very mean? No, no,

30:59

no. This is this was from 2016.

31:01

Okay, so he sends me this actually,

31:04

you know, in a FedEx envelope. This

31:06

from paid the whole front section of

31:08

the New York Times with Can

31:11

you see Charlie Charlie Charlie? I hope

31:13

you can change your mind That is

31:16

I will win. Yeah, that's right. So

31:18

this is I've I've I've I've kept

31:20

that yeah, that's that is that you're

31:22

probably how high you're not going to

31:25

win Oh, oh no, I mean look

31:27

I I make I make no bones

31:29

about it that that I had no

31:31

idea back in 2016. In fact, I

31:34

do remember one time I did you

31:36

you do a lot of interviews and

31:38

everything and everything and The one time

31:40

I was on on on on a

31:43

show I think with like the BBC

31:45

and we're talking about what's gonna happen

31:47

after the election and the the host

31:49

said so well what happens if Trump

31:52

wins in 2016 and I remember being

31:54

absolutely speechless yeah I had not thought

31:56

about that there is no There is

31:58

no way. Although I am, I am,

32:00

you know, feeling better about my Trump

32:03

derangement syndrome. The Trump derangement syndrome turned

32:05

out to be prophetic. Okay, so speaking

32:07

of your personal situation, I know what

32:09

your reaction was, but I want to

32:12

talk about just a little bit. So

32:14

Trump. wakes up in the middle of

32:16

the night and decides that all of

32:18

the preemptive pardons are invalid because Biden

32:21

used an auto pen or something. It's

32:23

a completely bullshit argument. But, you know,

32:25

clearly indicating that he wants to continue

32:27

to go after you former members of

32:30

the January 6th committee, you know, he

32:32

gave that that bellicose, angry, bitter, you

32:34

know, vengeful speech at the Department of

32:36

Justice. So, You know, you're you're in

32:39

the bring it on bro, but really?

32:41

What do you think's gonna happen? And

32:43

why is he so obsessed with this?

32:45

This could be along the lines of

32:48

my prediction about his chances in 2016

32:50

as well. But I really have come

32:52

to believe that this guy's superpower is

32:54

an intimidation and not in doing. And

32:57

the more you're intimidated by him, the

32:59

more you're like, you know, I don't

33:01

know if this is true, but I

33:03

heard this once. So if it's not

33:06

true, whatever, it's still a hell of

33:08

an allegory, which is a lion actually,

33:10

it's his roar that paralyzes his prey

33:12

and then he pounces. And that the

33:15

lion itself, obviously very strong, but not

33:17

near as strong as the paralyization of

33:19

the roar. And the roar is what

33:21

really, and I kind of see that

33:23

with Trump, like does he have power?

33:26

Could he actually come after me if

33:28

he wants to? Yeah. But it's his

33:30

bark that's so much louder than his

33:32

bite is strong. And so I've learned,

33:35

and this is honest truth about Trump,

33:37

like he's been obsessed with me. And

33:39

in a way, like, if you notice,

33:41

he doesn't attack me all that much,

33:44

it's very rare. And he really wants

33:46

me to like him. And I'm going

33:48

to say that. from Oval Office meetings

33:50

I've had with him and everything. And

33:53

so my view is not to be

33:55

intimidated, it's to be like, dude, bring

33:57

it on. And honestly, Charlie, because I'm

33:59

not going to sit here for like

34:02

after the election, I said, okay, look,

34:04

America doesn't care about January 6th, and

34:06

I was ready to move on. Right?

34:08

I did my role. I did my

34:11

role for history. America made a decision.

34:13

It's in the books, but I'm moving

34:15

on. He's the one that's obsessed with

34:17

it. He refuses to move on. So

34:20

you know what? I'm not going to

34:22

do is sit here for four years

34:24

with his little playing, you know, with

34:26

the idea of it. No, either bring

34:29

it on or shut the hell up.

34:31

You have one choice. But by the

34:33

way, and I mean this and I

34:35

mean this, waste you in the court

34:38

of law. And I'll be 30 times

34:40

more effective than I am today. And

34:42

I will personally be the one that

34:44

brings you down out of power. I

34:46

really believe that. And so my view

34:49

is, if he does decide to come

34:51

after me, awesome. Now I know what

34:53

I need to do for the next

34:55

four years to take him down. If

34:58

he does it, I'm calling his bluff.

35:00

shut up either do it or shut

35:02

up and I really mean that and

35:04

and I think everybody in his crosshairs

35:07

has to take that position he doesn't

35:09

have the authority we think he does

35:11

well and that's the thing about bullies

35:13

also is that if you if you

35:16

don't push back on the bullies you

35:18

just embolden them we've seen this over

35:20

and over and over again whereas if

35:22

you push back on them he'll move

35:25

on to a different target by the

35:27

way this is one of those stories

35:29

that just reminds us that there's no

35:31

real strategic plan here. You know, there

35:34

are the Trump explainers who try to

35:36

make sense of this. You know, stories

35:38

like this are just an indication of

35:40

how he's the prisoner of his own

35:43

impulses, anger, and his id. And because

35:45

none of this makes any sense for

35:47

him to go off on these tangents,

35:49

and it's his complete lack of discipline.

35:52

By the way, I think that's one

35:54

of the things that's rattling the markets

35:56

right now, but it sounds like I'm

35:58

changing. the subject, but you can see

36:01

that the business community in the markets

36:03

are now going... Does this guy have

36:05

a plan or is he going to wake

36:07

up in the middle of the night and

36:09

decide to go to war with some country

36:11

that he's going to slap that I can't

36:14

make a prediction? Businesses need to have some

36:16

sort of certainty, some sort of predictability. And

36:18

what Donald Trump reminds us on a daily

36:20

basis is how mercurial he is. That's a

36:23

very nice way of saying that he's bat

36:25

shit crazy on this stuff. And so, you

36:27

know, he might go to war with EU

36:29

and he might do something to Japan. We

36:31

just don't know. And it's not clear that

36:34

he'll listen to anybody if he's angry or

36:36

he's pissed off. And this is why it's

36:38

so important when we talk about, and this

36:40

is an important point to go

36:42

back to Ukraine for a second, why

36:45

security guarantees are so important for Ukraine

36:47

is these companies. They need to know

36:49

that the next 10 or 20 year

36:51

horizon is safe for investing. So if

36:53

all of a sudden we're going to

36:55

we're going to level massive tariffs on

36:57

Canada. An American corporation has to

36:59

rethink these long-term investments in Canada

37:02

and vice versa, Canadian corporations in

37:04

America, and that creates angst, right?

37:07

Same with Ukraine. If we're going

37:09

to have Ukraine be rebuilt by

37:11

private capital, you have to give

37:14

some assurance that Russia can't start

37:16

that war again or be fiduciarily

37:19

irresponsible for any... corporation to invest in Ukraine

37:21

if the war could start again in a

37:23

year. And then obviously then you have a

37:25

mass migration problem, you actually end up with

37:27

probably some version of terrorism out of the

37:29

poverty of Ukraine. So that is why it's

37:31

so important to have security guarantees and that's

37:34

why it's not even tariffs that are so

37:36

bad for the market, although they are, it's

37:38

the threat of tariffs that are just as

37:40

bad for the market because they don't know

37:42

how do you make a decision as a

37:44

company. Right, you can plan for something,

37:46

you can work it in, but if

37:48

it just drops it to you in

37:51

the middle of a quarter, what do

37:53

you do about all that? Not to

37:55

mention the fact that we live in

37:58

a world of incredibly complicated and complex.

38:00

supply chains, which is something that conservative

38:02

economics economists have been talking about for

38:04

decades now. But all right, so let's

38:06

talk about Chuck Schumer. Let's talk about

38:09

where you have. Now, now, we. You

38:11

know, everything seems like it's a million

38:13

years ago, but it looked like last

38:15

week that we were on the brink

38:18

of the government shutdown. Chuck Schumer certainly

38:20

indicated that we were going, that the

38:22

Republicans lacked of the votes and then

38:24

very, very suddenly reversed course and announced

38:26

he was going to vote to move

38:29

ahead with this. We averted the government

38:31

shutdown. Democrats are in full uproar about

38:33

it. Now, I thought that the bill

38:35

was terrible. I thought it was a

38:38

poison pill wrapped in a shit sandwich.

38:40

I did really worry about what Trump

38:42

and Musk would do with a government

38:44

shutdown. So I ultimately, very reluctantly, thought

38:46

that Schumer made the right decision. I

38:49

think he did it in the worst

38:51

possible way, but I think you took

38:53

a harsher view. So give me your

38:55

sense of what the Democrats should have

38:58

done. Yeah, I did take a harsher

39:00

view because look. When I was in

39:02

Congress, I was always the guy saying,

39:04

I'm not going to vote to shut

39:06

the government down, but I was negotiating

39:09

with a party that actually believed in

39:11

democracy as well. They just had a

39:13

different view on what some of the

39:15

spending levels and stuff should be. First

39:18

off, the second, any Democrats said, I'm

39:20

not a shut down guy, I'm not

39:22

going to vote to shut down the

39:24

government. They should have been kicked out

39:26

of the party, because what you do

39:29

is you're automatically taking... ownership of the

39:31

fact that it is your responsibility to

39:33

keep the government open. You don't have

39:35

any levers of power. It is 100%

39:38

on the Republicans and I get it.

39:40

Any Democratic votes in the Senate, but

39:42

that's exactly what the filibuster rule is.

39:44

It's not your fault that they need

39:46

60 votes. So the Republicans have to

39:49

come to you and give you something

39:51

to get the 60 votes. The second

39:53

you give up that leverage, basically the...

39:55

I guess the House by definition, Jared

39:58

Golden, who voted for it, but certainly

40:00

the Senate, you gave up any leverage

40:02

you have until October. And by the

40:04

way, in October, they may fund the

40:06

government through reconciliation. So let's think about

40:09

this. If you're gonna pass a law

40:11

in Congress that, let's say it bans

40:13

trans athletes, right? You say. Congress shall

40:15

not appropriate money for whatever trans athletes

40:18

or let's say you want to protect

40:20

trans athletes Congress shall appropriate money to

40:22

protect transit basically all language in Congress

40:24

is about shall and shall not in

40:26

terms of appropriations of cash that is

40:29

the only power that has they gave

40:31

that away for nothing and I've got

40:33

to tell you if a government shutdown

40:35

would have happened The idea that it

40:38

would have been blamed on the Democrats

40:40

is ludicrous. You would have to turn

40:42

against every single time in history that

40:44

a government is shut down under one

40:46

party and looked at it and said

40:49

that party always does take the blame.

40:51

You would have to say that somehow

40:53

that's not going to be the case.

40:55

And I'll tell you what it wouldn't

40:58

be the case, Charlie. as if the

41:00

Democrats were too lazy to go out

41:02

and message it because the Republicans would

41:04

have spent 90% of their effort trying

41:06

to depend on the Democrats. And honestly,

41:09

that's what I think it comes down

41:11

to. Chuck Schumer has a book tour

41:13

and if he would have shut the

41:15

government down, but canceled now anyway, but

41:18

he would have had to force his

41:20

members to go out and it's hard

41:22

work. I've been there, man. I don't

41:24

like it either. to message that look

41:26

hey we're happy to help keep the

41:29

government open but you need 60 votes

41:31

come get 60 votes and you think

41:33

about that basic message Charlie of like

41:35

look we're all for keeping the government

41:38

open but you have to have 60

41:40

votes in the Senate come get 60

41:42

votes Tell me that's not a winner

41:44

with the American people. It is because

41:46

generally 80% of America thinks like House

41:49

and that Democrats Republicans should work together.

41:51

So that's my that's my diet tribe.

41:53

Okay. So I guess the counter argument

41:55

was and Schumer made this argument and

41:58

I accepted some of it which was

42:00

that Donald Trump and Elon Musk want

42:02

to shut down the government. They are

42:04

dismantling the federal government. This would give

42:06

them sweeping new opportunities to slash and

42:09

cut programs. because it would be up

42:11

to them unilaterally decide what's essential, what's

42:13

not essential. So really, you still see

42:15

tremendous power to destroy the government to

42:18

them. The other argument was that why

42:20

change the subject in a moment when

42:22

Donald Trump was digging himself a hole?

42:24

Why, you know, put the onus on

42:26

Democrats? That argument hasn't played out as

42:29

well because clearly, you know, the argument,

42:31

the discussions already switched to Democrats back

42:33

in disarray, the circular firing squad of

42:35

Democrats at the time of a constitutional

42:38

crisis. But how do you answer that,

42:40

that by not going along with this,

42:42

that you actually would have empowered both

42:44

Elon Musk and Donald Trump to do

42:46

more destruction? Look, it's possible, right? It

42:49

is possible, but let's say here. Let's

42:51

look at what the contrary is What

42:53

more destruction are they going to do

42:55

that they're not already doing and what's

42:58

the only thing that's stopping them from

43:00

doing more destruction? Is the courts the

43:02

courts will exist whether the government is

43:04

shut down or not? Right. They would

43:06

they would have except that they know

43:09

that the courts again can step in

43:11

and have a guardrail out there for

43:13

what they can do. They've basically operated

43:15

within what they think they can get

43:18

away with. Again, shutting down the government,

43:20

yes, you get to label some people

43:22

non-essential. Can they do more damage? Maybe,

43:24

maybe. But you still have the same

43:26

guardrails of the courts. So whether or

43:29

not you're in a lapse of appropriation

43:31

and you fire people within the guardrails

43:33

here during or not. or you go

43:35

outside of guardrails, you still have the

43:38

same court protection. So I don't think,

43:40

I mean, again, I recognize, it is

43:42

a risk. I'm not saying there isn't,

43:44

but the question is, do we accept

43:46

their hostage tactics? say fine you're willing

43:49

to shoot a hostage so we're gonna

43:51

just give you the million dollars or

43:53

do we call the bluff and say

43:55

we're gonna send a hostage rescue team

43:58

in to try to do it the

44:00

right way and that's a look it's

44:02

a question every FBI agent in that

44:04

situation has to make I think the

44:06

leader had to make that I think

44:09

he made the wrong one but yes

44:11

there is risk in everything otherwise you

44:13

know it'd be easy decision so One

44:15

of the side debates is, should Chuck

44:18

Schumer stay as the Senate minority leader?

44:20

And as somebody that thinks that he

44:22

ultimately made the right decision, but handled

44:24

it as badly as he possibly could,

44:26

I have to say that if Democrats

44:29

are going to figure out how to

44:31

move through this period, they need new

44:33

leadership. Yes. This gerontocracy thing has been

44:35

just a boat anchor. They're losing young

44:38

voters, but also... You just sense that

44:40

we have an entire generation of leaders

44:42

that just does not know how to

44:44

meet this moment. Joe Biden did not

44:46

know how to meet this moment. I

44:49

don't think Chuck Schumer did. I mean,

44:51

Chuck Schumer could not have handled the

44:53

messaging on this any worse than he

44:55

did. And in part, he was also

44:57

caught flat-footed because I think the reality

45:00

is that what happened was that he

45:02

just assumed that he just assumed that

45:04

Mike Johnson was not going to get

45:06

the votes to get this through the

45:09

house, right? So he had no plan

45:11

B. How the fuck do you have

45:13

no plan B? How do you not

45:15

have some sort of messaging? How do

45:17

you go from one day saying, you

45:20

know, we're not going to go along

45:22

with this to, yes, I'm caving in,

45:24

the lack of messaging? It honestly could

45:26

not have looked worse from his point

45:29

of view. And I think this is

45:31

one of those moments where Democrats need

45:33

to say, you know, whatever our loyalty

45:35

is, we have got to move generation

45:37

generation. Now I'm not suggesting AOC is

45:40

the leader. of leaders that understand how

45:42

to message the enormity of the threat

45:44

that we face, I'm using that word

45:46

wrong, I think maybe I'm not, the

45:49

gravity of the fact that this is

45:51

not normal, that this is an exit.

45:53

and if you believe that you need

45:55

to act like it, Chuck Schumer does

45:57

not have the DNA to do this.

46:00

And I don't know how many others,

46:02

you know, do. Let me, let me

46:04

add a layer on that. From November

46:06

to January to the inauguration, we were

46:09

out there saying they're gonna F up

46:11

government. All of a sudden, Charlie, Trump

46:13

gets inaugurated. He throws musk in there.

46:15

They start firing everybody, sending Doge into

46:17

these offices. And what are the Democrats

46:20

do? Nothing. They're caught off guard. You

46:22

and I have been saying they're going

46:24

to do Project 2025. They were caught

46:26

off. They had it in the book.

46:29

The blueprints there. And on top of

46:31

that, during all of that stuff, what

46:33

was going on in the house? This

46:35

is a strike against Sikkim Jeffries, but

46:37

they were home on recess. If I

46:40

was the leader of the Democrats, I'd

46:42

have been like, look, we're on recess,

46:44

but you all are getting your ass

46:46

to Washington and we're going to sit

46:49

on the floor of the House. We're

46:51

going to go to every single one

46:53

of these agencies where doges and every

46:55

day we're going to demand entry in

46:57

so that we can have oversight and

47:00

if they refuse like they did one

47:02

time, we're not going to say thank

47:04

you for your service and walk away

47:06

like the Democrats did. We're going down

47:09

the street to the DC. but they

47:11

didn't do anything they sat on their

47:13

butt they waited until they came back

47:15

in session and I'm sorry for you

47:17

know I came Jeffries probably needs to

47:20

stay for now he's decent enough I

47:22

mean problem is he's up against you

47:24

know Pelosi and that's hard to compare

47:26

against but Shumor's got to go. I

47:29

mean you saw that rally where they're

47:31

like we will win. Oh and and

47:33

the guy I'm sorry maybe a nice

47:35

guy I don't know he's too old

47:37

he's not right for this and I

47:40

want to echo just quickly what you

47:42

said Charlie the answer is not further

47:44

left guys the answer is not we

47:46

need somebody that you know joins Bernie

47:49

Sanders because I'm going to tell you

47:51

the identity politics is why you lost.

47:53

It's why you lost. I'm sorry that

47:55

you think you weren't far that some

47:57

people think that it's just the Democrats

48:00

weren't far enough left and and they

48:02

didn't rally. No, I'm gonna tell you

48:04

I've talked to a hundred people that

48:06

would happily voted for a centrist Democrat

48:09

that voted for Trump because they were

48:11

scared to death of a bunch of

48:13

other stuff. You can win that way.

48:15

But get somebody young Chris Murphy's probably

48:17

a little further to the left, but

48:20

I think he's a very moderate. He's

48:22

much more liberal than me, but I

48:24

think he understands how to work together

48:26

and I think he's got a centrist

48:29

mindset. He also understands the moment. And

48:31

he understands how you have to answer

48:33

Trumpism, how you have to deal with

48:35

it, that in fact that this is

48:37

not the world. You know, look, if

48:40

you've been around politics as long as

48:42

Chuck Schumer, you begin to think that,

48:44

well, okay, I remember how we played

48:46

this back in 1997, or back in

48:49

2005, we had this piece of legislation,

48:51

or we needed to have this tactic

48:53

back in 2015. That world is gone.

48:55

It is erased. And unless you understand

48:57

that, unless you understand that, unless you...

49:00

approach the new threats with new eyes

49:02

and new tactics and new voices, you're

49:04

going to continue to lose. And I

49:06

agree with you. So I even though

49:09

I'm glad the government didn't shut down,

49:11

I have much more feeling, I mean

49:13

much more mixed feelings about this. I

49:15

was on a podcast with Josh Marshall,

49:17

who's to the left of me, but

49:20

he said, you know what, in a

49:22

certain sense that A shutdown wouldn't have

49:24

been great, but it would have accelerated

49:26

the debate over, you know, what do

49:29

we want to do with government? It

49:31

would have traumatized the cuts. It would

49:33

have made the destruction of the government

49:35

central in people's lives in a way

49:37

that it will be at some point,

49:40

but is not right now. I don't

49:42

know. This is a tactical decision, but

49:44

it really did expose, I think the...

49:46

Democrats inability to

49:49

be able to navigate

49:51

this this new

49:53

world. So new world. So

49:55

well, we're all having

49:57

trouble with that.

50:00

So with that. So Adam Keep

50:02

the keep fighting you too buddy

50:04

stretch out the hammy Yeah, I need

50:06

to and I need too.

50:09

and I'll say

50:11

this too. to myself lesson

50:13

to myself as

50:15

well. Let's try to

50:17

this. I have fun

50:20

with this. I know

50:22

the are Existential which

50:24

sucks, this can be fun, especially when

50:26

we have a community a community my

50:28

community, right? we share a lot

50:30

of the same people too. So a lot

50:32

of the because too. So will have a

50:34

sense of humor does not mean I

50:36

don't take it seriously. It means

50:38

that I'm trying to stay sane of humor

50:41

does not I appreciate take it seriously. It means that

50:43

thank you all for listening to this

50:45

episode of the to contrary podcast you. I

50:47

You know we're doing this because

50:49

now more than ever We

50:52

need to remind ourselves remind ourselves that we

50:54

are not the crazy. Thanks.