0:02

Robert Francis Kennedy.

0:05

What we need in the United States

0:06

is not division. What

0:09

we need in the United States is not hatred. No,

0:12

not that one. His large adult

0:15

son. I

0:17

need my speech. Robert

0:23

Francis Kennedy Jr.

0:26

was running for president as a Democrat. Of

0:28

course he was. He's a Kennedy. You

0:31

can't read it, I think. But

0:34

as of this week, he's running as

0:37

an Independent. It's upside

0:39

down.

0:42

Who's going to hurt more as a result?

0:45

The current president or the former

0:47

one? Coming up on Today Explained.

0:58

Bye.

1:00

That's

1:29

Schwab.com

1:30

slash WashingtonWise.

1:33

I went to the precinct

1:36

and I said, look, I wanted

1:39

to talk about a murder that I think

1:41

happened.

1:42

In 1993, Travell

1:44

Coleman shot a man, but was never

1:46

a suspect. He kept the

1:48

secret for years and years. I've

1:51

heard of

1:51

people turning themselves in, but it's usually

1:54

soon thereafter the crime. I've never

1:57

experienced anything like someone coming forward 17 years

1:59

later.

1:59

after the fact, so no, this is absolutely

2:02

extraordinary. Here's

2:04

Trabel's story on the latest episode of Criminals.

2:07

Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

2:21

David Friedlander, I'm a contributor to Politico

2:23

magazine. Great. And you recently wrote

2:25

a piece for Politico titled RFK

2:28

Junior's Ultimate Vanity

2:31

Project. Why did you call it that?

2:33

I think Robert Kennedy is not going to be

2:36

the next president of the United States. We

2:38

should be loath to make predictions over the last

2:41

decade or so of American politics because

2:43

they often proved me wrong. But,

2:46

you know, it does sort of seem like this

2:48

is a little bit of a quixotic

2:50

run and it's not really clear

2:52

why he's doing it. Robert

2:55

F. Kennedy Jr. seemed to be running for president

2:57

because he got kicked off of Instagram

3:01

during the COVID vaccine rollout. And he's

3:03

really

3:03

mad about that. We had to invent

3:06

a new word called malinformation to

3:08

censor people like me. There

3:11

was no misinformation on my Instagram

3:14

account. He says he was kicked off for

3:16

what was a sort of fact

3:19

about the Wuhan lab. And

3:22

it was at least, you know, in dispute about

3:24

whether or not he was right. What Instagram

3:26

said at the time was he was kicked off for serial

3:29

inaccuracies about COVID

3:32

and about the vaccine. We are saving people's

3:34

lives and we're saving democracy because

3:36

children should not be getting the vaccine. So

3:39

he seems to be like he's sort of running for like this

3:41

banner of free speech. That's the

3:43

sort of like in many ways the kind of crux

3:45

of his candidacy. Were you there when

3:48

he kicked off his initial campaign

3:50

as a Democrat, David? I was.

3:52

I was in Boston. Part of it felt

3:54

like a kind of, you know, old home meeting

3:56

of sort of Kennedy fans, if not

3:58

really Kenny family members. because most of his family

4:02

has disavowed him. I've listened to him.

4:05

I know him. I have

4:07

no idea why anyone

4:09

thinks he should be president. But it was

4:11

this weird mix of

4:14

voters who sort of traditionally,

4:17

I think, are thought of as being

4:19

sort of on the left side of the spectrum.

4:22

There was a kind of hippie-ish quality

4:24

to them. And they were concerned about

4:27

wellness. They were anti-vaccine.

4:29

But a lot of their anti-vaccine concerns were

4:31

about big pharma

4:34

and healthy living and sort of natural

4:36

living in a way. That kind of vibe

4:39

has drifted into the sort of right

4:41

wing of the American political spectrum. And

4:43

it includes a sort of distrust of government,

4:46

suspicion of big institutions, a suspicion of

4:48

business, all of which I

4:50

think are now kind of more conservative

4:53

and right leaning. I don't actually

4:56

ask this of journalists on this show

4:58

that often. But you wrote about

5:01

the speech itself in

5:03

such vivid detail. I found

5:05

it so bonkers. I wonder, would you read

5:07

a section of your piece to

5:10

us? Would that be too much to ask? No,

5:12

no, no. When

5:15

Kennedy kicked off his candidacy in April

5:17

at the Boston Park Plaza Hotel, he

5:19

began by talking about the history of the Kennedys

5:21

in America. It was legalized oppression.

5:25

It was legalized by the American government against Irish Catholics.

5:29

Segue into the origins of the American Revolution.

5:31

It was really, he claimed, about the corrupt merger of

5:33

state and corporate power. It bounced over to Gary Powers

5:35

getting shot down over the Soviet Union in his

5:37

U-2 spy plane. And the Eisenhower administration denied

5:40

that we had a U-2 program. That was 1960. Then

5:44

onto the Pentagon Papers, his father's 1968 presidential

5:47

campaign, the Penn Central Railroad's pollution

5:49

of the Hudson River. And Central Railroad began

5:51

vomiting oil how

5:54

God reveals himself to art and nature. He

5:59

then paused. saying it's about halfway through.

6:01

I want to move on to another

6:04

issue that nobody's going to really want to talk about,

6:07

but I need to. Before launching

6:09

a new discourse on COVID, lockdowns, censorship,

6:12

of course, the vanishing middle class, how

6:14

in March 2020, public health authorities went

6:16

to every black neighborhood and locked down the basketball

6:18

courts,

6:19

which what?

6:20

The smallpox outbreak that tore through

6:23

the Continental Army in 1775, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the

6:27

industry capture of government agencies, the

6:29

chronic disease epidemic, the origins of autism,

6:32

the war in Ukraine, the national debt, WMDs

6:34

in Iraq, vaccines, and Pete

6:36

Buttigieg's stewardship of the Department of Transportation.

6:39

He's not a fan. Almost entirely missing

6:41

were any plans to tackle democratic priorities,

6:43

like raising wages, decreasing inequality,

6:46

combating climate change, reducing gun

6:48

violence, or wrestling with aspiring cost of

6:50

healthcare. Every Friday,

6:52

Keith goes and picks up 30 oysters,

6:55

brings them to my house, and I

6:57

pay for the oysters. He shocks them, he makes

7:00

them. The speech clocked in at nearly two hours.

7:02

In the middle of it, I wondered if Kennedy

7:04

believed he had to do this because it was the last

7:06

speech he would ever give. About three quarters

7:09

of the way through, Justice Kennedy was talking

7:11

about how Saudi Arabia and Brazil were

7:13

ditching the US dollars and new trade agreements for

7:15

their own currencies, and alarm went off

7:17

in the hotel ballroom, and a voice came

7:19

over the loudspeaker telling everyone to calmly leave.

7:22

There was an emergency. Kennedy

7:26

told the crowd that an aide had told him, there

7:28

is no emergency that affects us, and

7:30

tried to make a joke for the powers of be were trying to shut

7:32

him up. Nice try. But

7:36

then he just kept on following through, wealthy,

7:38

oblivious, and asyring. All

7:40

of which is to say, the man can be kind of

7:43

exhausting. If you've ever found yourself

7:45

in a college dorm room talking with someone who can't

7:47

believe how you don't know how Mumeyab Uldramal

7:49

was framed, or how about a fluoride in

7:51

the water, because you have been turned into a sheep

7:53

by the corporate overlords who control the media and

7:56

the government. Well, talking with Kennedy

7:58

is kind of like that.

7:59

This is what happened when you

8:02

sent somebody for 18 years. I

8:07

mean, you know, it's funny, like, when he first

8:09

came into the race, I mean, there was like, he had

8:12

a kind of 15 to 20% that

8:14

he was polling in the Democratic primary polls.

8:16

And I think that was really like alarming to a lot

8:18

of political pundits, professional Democrats,

8:21

you know, is this 20%? He just started

8:23

campaigning, is it going to grow? Is it going to be 30% 40%? And

8:27

instead, it kind of sunk a little bit, the

8:29

more he spoke. A lot of that 15

8:33

or 20% or whatever it was, you

8:35

know, there's just a place for people who sort

8:37

of aren't totally sold on Joe

8:39

Biden or who are mad with him to kind

8:42

of park their disapproval of him. And

8:44

you know, some of it was probably a little bit of a reverence

8:46

for the Kennedy name or familiarity with the Kennedy name.

8:49

And then some of it was this like anti-vax

8:52

conspiracy laden, wellness

8:55

driven vote that doesn't

8:57

really get aired a lot in Democratic Party

9:00

politics. And there are some fears

9:02

that that vote is like bigger than

9:04

we know, that it's sort of growing on Facebook,

9:07

but it doesn't feel as if it's like a major

9:09

block in the Democratic Party right

9:11

now. So when does it become clear to RFK

9:14

Jr. that he's got to ditch Democratic

9:17

politics and run as an independent?

9:20

Well, it's funny. The

9:22

places where he got like the most interest

9:25

in his campaign and was promoted were

9:28

on right wing media sites. He

9:30

was like the favorite of right

9:32

wing podcasters. Robert F. Kennedy

9:34

Jr. is not going to win the Democratic nomination.

9:37

What you have is this anti-establishment,

9:39

anti-authoritarian populist

9:42

movement that doesn't trust the administrative

9:44

state, doesn't trust the deep state. And

9:46

Twitter space hosts and YouTube

9:49

personalities, Fox News,

9:51

Adam on several times.

9:52

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is here to react.

9:55

Good morning to you. Good morning. Robert

9:57

F. Kennedy Jr. Welcome. Thank you,

9:59

Robert.

9:59

Thank you very much Dr. Kennedy,

10:01

welcome back to the program. It's always good to have you with

10:03

us. Thanks

10:03

for having me Martha. You know, I... What

10:05

was sort of unique about it was it was

10:08

kind of obvious that the reason they had

10:10

him on was because he was a Democrat who

10:12

was willing to criticize Joe Biden.

10:16

So in other words, here's this guy

10:18

who sort of sees the world as this

10:21

multi-layered conspiracy that

10:23

kind of fuses all that

10:25

we see and touch and taste. He

10:28

was actually in many ways the kind of like the subject

10:30

of a conspiracy

10:31

and an unwitting one. If

10:33

that makes

10:33

sense. Like he was, in some ways,

10:35

he was the sort of useful dude of

10:38

all of these right-wingers who liked the fact

10:40

that he was willing to criticize a Democrat.

10:44

And he seemed sort of unaware of that. I'm

10:46

proud that President Trump

10:48

likes me. But regardless, it

10:51

was really where like he

10:53

was finding an audience was

10:56

in those spaces. And I think that's

10:58

why he ended up leaving the Democratic Party.

11:04

So he has another kickoff on Monday when

11:06

there's no other major news going

11:08

on, conveniently for him. How

11:10

does it go? I think it

11:13

mostly went fine. But I still think he hasn't

11:15

like figured out that the point of these things is

11:17

to get like viral clips

11:20

that can go on CNN,

11:22

MSNBC, maybe leaving news or

11:24

at least on social media. And

11:26

he just kind of tends to talk and talk

11:28

and talk. Running as an independent

11:30

is like a little bit of a better fit for him.

11:33

One of the problems or issues of his candidacy

11:35

was that because he was always sort

11:37

of being cheered on by right-wingers, he

11:39

would say things that they want to hear. On

11:43

guns. I'm not going to take away

11:45

anybody's guns. Even kind of on the

11:47

environment in a funny way. When

11:49

he would be asked about them by

11:51

mainstream news reporters, he would have to kind of quickly

11:54

backtrack because he was, I remember that he was

11:56

still like running in a Democratic Party primary.

11:59

And so I think

11:59

that.

11:59

this enables him to not have to do

12:02

that anymore.

12:03

Do you think

12:04

an independent Robert F.

12:06

Kennedy Jr. is different

12:09

in terms of campaigning than a

12:12

Democratic Robert F. Kennedy

12:14

Jr.?

12:18

Well, you know, he's funny because he's like

12:20

a lefty Democrat from

12:22

like another era, a kind of pre-Bernie

12:26

Sanders era. He's kind of

12:28

a 2004 version of a lefty Democrat,

12:31

which doesn't really exist anymore. It's a

12:33

kind of Democrat who focuses on the environment

12:36

in this kind of neighborhoody backyard

12:38

kind of way where it's about like clean

12:41

water, you know, not having sort

12:43

of like new development in

12:45

open spaces, but not about like

12:47

global warming and climate change.

12:50

These issues that are now like really

12:52

what the BS sort of lefty environmentalists are

12:54

all about. I approach the climate,

12:57

my approach to reducing energy,

13:00

let's say my approach to energy, is

13:03

using free markets and have not top-down

13:05

control. Now that he's running not the

13:08

Democratic Party primary, he can have he's kind of 40

13:10

to like not pay heed to

13:13

Democratic party politics

13:15

in a way, which he was doing a poor job

13:17

of anyway. I mean, his sort of training

13:19

as an environmental lawyer. And so

13:22

you would think he would sort of be foregrounding that

13:24

like the latest activists on the Democratic

13:26

left are saying about the environment, but

13:28

he's not really. I mean, he's sort of talking

13:31

about the environment in this river

13:33

keepers sort of way and

13:35

not about, you know, zeroing out carbon

13:37

emissions. I think he's just sort

13:39

of a better fit for the kind of like idiosyncratic

13:42

politics he was appealing to anyway.

13:51

Spoiler alert, Bobby Jr. is not

13:53

going to be president, but how

13:55

he might impact this race when we're back on

13:57

Today Explained.

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16:04

Explained. 2024 Explained.

16:07

Today

16:08

Explained is back. David, can I ask

16:10

you about third-party candidates for a moment?

16:12

Can we do a little history? I think the

16:14

thing to know about American

16:17

politics is that it's just

16:19

not built for third-party candidacies.

16:23

The last really successful third

16:25

party in American politics was

16:27

the Republican party. Those

16:29

who were members of the Free Soil Party

16:32

eventually became members of the Republican

16:34

Party, which also began its

16:36

life as an anti-slavery

16:39

third party. In 1992,

16:41

Ross Perot's Reform

16:44

Party got about 20% of the vote.

16:46

I don't have any spin doctors. I don't

16:48

have any speech writers.

16:50

Probably shows. And

16:52

there's still been a lot of debate

16:54

about whether or not that sort

16:57

of took the presidency away from George

16:59

H.W. Bush and headed it to Bill Clinton. I

17:02

think the numbers seem to say that

17:04

that wasn't the case. But what Perot

17:06

did in that race was he really sort of changed

17:08

the conversation and made it

17:11

on terrain that was friendly to Bill

17:13

Clinton. And then more recently,

17:15

I think what third parties mostly

17:17

have done is sort of play a spoiler

17:19

role, getting very, very,

17:22

very little of the vote.

17:24

But in the last 20 years or so, our

17:26

elections have just been so

17:29

close that even if a little bit

17:31

of your coalition kind of drifts away,

17:34

it can hand the election to

17:36

the other guy. I think that there's some evidence

17:38

that we saw that in 2000 with

17:40

Ralph Nader's Green Party bid

17:43

handing the election to George

17:46

W. Bush. And then again, in 2016, Jill

17:48

Stein again

17:51

just did not by any measure

17:53

did not do very well in that election,

17:56

but kind of took enough votes away from

17:58

Hillary Clinton that handed the election.

17:59

of Donald Trump. And who can even remember

18:02

what happened next?

18:06

What is it about the American

18:08

political system that makes a third party

18:11

run so challenging? The

18:13

issue is that in all our sort of two-party system,

18:16

what ends up happening is that the parties are kind

18:18

of this coalition of various factions.

18:21

Like in most other countries, you wouldn't

18:23

have a Democratic party

18:26

that had both Joe Biden

18:28

and Bernie Sanders and AOC in it,

18:31

and Joe Manchin, a conservative Democrat. They would

18:33

all be separate parties, but what happens in American

18:36

politics is they all kind of become

18:38

subsumed into this one party.

18:40

And the same thing happens on the Republican side, where you

18:43

really wouldn't have Mitt Romney,

18:46

Kevin McCarthy, and Donald Trump be

18:49

in the same party. But again, what ends up

18:51

happening is that our politics are just, because

18:53

we have this two-party system, and because our politics are so

18:55

closely divided, and because we also

18:57

have kind of like winner-take-all political

19:00

system, it just doesn't make

19:02

sense for anybody to kind

19:04

of go their own way and

19:06

stake out their own path. I mean, think of it this

19:08

way. We have this electoral college, and the way

19:11

it works is that if you win a state

19:13

by a single vote, you then get

19:15

all of those electoral college

19:17

votes, right? So, you know, Ross

19:20

Perot did pretty well on the election.

19:22

He got 20% of the popular

19:24

vote, and he got zero electoral votes.

19:27

And so when you have this winner-take-all system, it means

19:29

that all the forces are kind of geared

19:32

towards like defeating the other side, rather

19:34

than on your own sort of pet political project.

19:37

Unless you really do feel, you know, the sort

19:39

of righteousness of your cause, which bubbles

19:42

up every so often, but that ends up just kind of

19:44

getting, again, just kind of absorbed into

19:47

the two major political parties. Tell

19:51

me, I don't think it's just RFK

19:53

Jr. running as a third-party

19:55

candidate this time around. Can you give

19:57

us the slate? Yeah, that's... That's

20:00

right. I mean, so Kennedy is running

20:02

as an independent. It was also last

20:04

week, Cornel West, the

20:07

philosopher, academic, social

20:09

justice activist, who had been running

20:12

for the Green Party nomination.

20:14

He was no longer going to seek the Green Party

20:16

nomination, which is what Ralph Dader and

20:19

Jill Stein ran on. He was actually

20:21

also going to run as an independent. This

20:23

two-party system that impedes,

20:26

it gets in the way of the unleashing

20:28

of the kind of policies of abolishing poverty

20:31

and homelessness. Now, pause

20:34

here and note that it's

20:36

really hard to run as a true

20:39

independent without a sort of party

20:41

backing you as both Cornel West

20:44

and Robert F. Kennedy are trying to do. It takes

20:46

a lot of money. It takes a lot

20:48

of legal know-how. It takes

20:50

a lot of effort to get on the ballot. So

20:52

I think in both cases, we're going to have to see

20:55

how they do. They're

20:57

just onerous rules to

21:00

get on the ballot. If you don't have

21:02

major party backing, I mean, in a lot of states,

21:04

like for example, the Green Party is

21:07

they're on the ballot because they run candidates

21:09

every year. They are a small

21:12

party, but a national political party. And

21:14

so they're used to this and they're already

21:17

on the ballot. But if you're not on the ballot, you have to go out and

21:19

gather signatures. It costs money.

21:21

You have all these sort of hoops you have to

21:23

jump through that I don't think

21:25

these people necessarily all thought through. And

21:27

then there's also a third option out there,

21:30

which is No Labels, which is this group

21:33

that they're a little

21:35

hard to define. The problem

21:38

is not the third choice that

21:41

No Labels is offering the American

21:43

people. The problem is the

21:45

American people are not buying what

21:48

the two parties are selling anymore. They

21:50

don't have a label. So they're a little hard to define.

21:53

But what they sort of believe that there

21:55

is this moderate middle in American

21:57

politics that is being unaddressed.

22:00

by the two major parties and they

22:02

are on the ballot and several

22:04

swing states and they are planning on

22:06

running a candidate My guess it will

22:09

be I think it's sort of like one republican

22:11

and one and one democrat as a ticket

22:13

to compete alongside Joe,

22:16

biden donald trump democrats are really

22:18

really worried about this. I think they're very

22:21

worried about cornell west Maybe a little

22:23

less worried about robert f. Kennedy because they

22:25

think he may take votes from donald trump right

22:27

now But this this

22:29

no labels thing It seems like what they're trying to do

22:31

is kind of be a party for in

22:34

a way for republicans Who are

22:36

sort of just don't really like donald

22:38

trump? But also think that democrats

22:40

are too liberal. Um, and some democrats who

22:42

think the same thing. They're also hanging

22:45

out there Is it fair to say that of

22:47

all these other candidates robert f.

22:49

Kennedy jr Has the

22:52

biggest chance of being a spoiler

22:55

in this race? As of now, I

22:57

think he's polling the highest and

22:59

I think that may change

23:02

as more people sort of tune in To

23:05

the stuff he's saying and the interesting

23:07

thing about robert f. Kennedy is that you

23:09

know, literally until yesterday. He

23:11

was a democrat There's a belief

23:13

that he may actually take more votes from donald

23:16

trump because you know,

23:18

a lot of the things he's talking about Are

23:20

the sort of like fringe elements of the mega

23:23

coalition? I mean the the vaccine suspicion

23:25

the sort of suspicion of 5g

23:28

wireless um You know

23:30

a kind of return to a kind

23:32

of small and local community

23:34

building kind of way that that's sort of divorced from

23:36

the national government Um, and

23:39

so you can see him sort of hurting trump

23:41

more than hurting biden Bring this back

23:44

to your piece rfk jr's

23:46

ultimate vanity project How

23:49

do you think he might feel if he

23:51

manages to throw this race? In

23:54

favor of the former president

23:56

or the current one would that be something

23:59

of an accomplishment? for him? Would he then go

24:01

away? So he's

24:03

not going to go away, I think, is

24:06

my answer. I mean, he's really, you know,

24:08

he has this sort of like, you know, the

24:10

fervor of the righteous, and

24:13

he believes in his cause. And

24:15

he believes that he has been censored

24:18

from speaking about his cause, which

24:21

is a ridiculous thing to

24:23

think. I mean, even when he was kicked off Instagram,

24:26

he was still on massive other massive

24:29

fonts and other social media platforms. I

24:31

think, you know, wrote or contributed to something

24:34

like three or four books that are available

24:36

on Amazon or wherever fine books are sold.

24:39

So all of which is a long way of saying, No,

24:41

I don't think he would be satisfied

24:43

or go away, regardless.

24:47

He's here to stay. That's right. And many Kennedy's

24:50

after him, I'm sure. Yeah. I

24:53

mean, you know, it's funny, right? Because they they're

24:55

all sort of disavowing him. All

24:58

these Kennedy's that I don't think anyone quite really

25:01

knew who they were. Until

25:03

they were listed as disavowing their

25:06

brother or cousin or uncle. It's

25:09

been great and terrible publicity

25:11

for the Kennedy's. Exactly. Also,

25:21

in New York magazine, our program

25:23

today was produced by John Aaron's

25:25

with help from Hadi Mawadi. They

25:27

both had help from Matthew Collette,

25:30

Laura Bullard, David Herman and me. I'm

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Sean Ramos from the rest of the today explained

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team includes Halima Shah, Miles

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Brian, Victoria Chamberlain, Amanda Llewellyn,

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Siona Petros, Isabel Angel, Avi

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Shai Artsy, Patrick Boyd, Rob Byers,

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Amna Al-Sadi, Miranda Kennedy and Avi

25:46

Noel King. We made to use music by

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is distributed by WNYC. The show is

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Join us at Vox dot com slash. Thanks.