0:00

The Oscars are so last month,

0:02

and yet they're still making news. This

0:04

week, a new rule. Members

0:06

gotta watch the movies before they

0:08

vote. Big yikes. But

0:11

earlier this month, a new

0:13

category. Best stunt design. It's almost

0:15

like an issue of justice. Kind

0:18

of like justice for stunts. like for

0:20

the work that they do and the

0:22

fact that they don't really get credited

0:24

the way that a lot of other

0:26

people in the film industry do with

0:28

Oscars and industry awards and things like

0:30

that. But for me

0:32

as a film critic and a

0:34

cinephile and also someone who's

0:36

studied film history, the

0:38

stunt people were here before the

0:40

movie stars were like stunts built

0:42

Hollywood and the idea that over

0:44

the years They never

0:47

quite got their due, just seemed

0:49

to be such a miscarriage

0:51

of justice. Justice

0:53

for Stunton on Today

0:55

Exploit. Right

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in stores and at Nordstrom.com. Bilga

2:02

Abiri says an Oscar for stunt

2:04

design is justice for all those stunt

2:06

people who never got their due.

2:08

We asked him who the first stunt

2:10

people in Hollywood were. I mean

2:12

in many ways we don't even know

2:15

really. Very

2:18

often... people that appeared in, you

2:20

know, some of the early silents, they

2:22

were anonymous in so many cases.

2:24

But, you know, if you look at

2:26

somebody, like, I'm obviously, he was

2:28

a star, but you look at someone

2:30

like Buster Keaton or Harold Lloyd.

2:32

I mean, these people were stars, but

2:35

they were renowned for their stunts,

2:37

for the incredible pratfalls. And this is

2:39

before we had terms like stunt

2:41

coordinator or stunt designer or action designer.

2:44

These guys did all that stuff. And

2:46

they starred in and often wrote

2:48

the films and Charlie Chaplin

2:50

would also count, you know Charlie

2:52

Chaplin I mean obviously was

2:54

a comedian and a great actor,

2:57

but so much of his

2:59

slapstick comedy is predicated on stunt

3:01

work And you know when

3:03

you talk about Buster Keaton and

3:05

Charlie Chaplin you're talking about

3:07

some of the biggest names in

3:09

early cinema. Oh, yeah But

3:12

I think most people probably think

3:14

of them as actors and

3:16

visionaries before they think of them

3:18

as stuntmen or stunt people. When

3:21

does that start to change?

3:23

Where does the road split?

3:25

And actors and visionaries are in

3:28

one group and people who

3:30

do stunts and fun action sequences

3:32

are in a very different

3:34

group. I mean, once any industry

3:36

gets big enough and begins

3:39

to think of itself as an

3:41

art form, it, you know,

3:43

almost organically and automatically divides into

3:45

artists and then the people

3:47

who are an artist who are

3:49

there to serve the artist's

3:52

vision, right? And that, of course,

3:54

gets hyper -accelerated when the Oscars

3:56

come into the picture. And

3:58

in the Oscars, I mean, there's a

4:00

whole history of why the Oscars came. why

4:03

the Oscars came about, but part of

4:05

it was for the film industry to really

4:07

make a case for itself as an

4:09

art form because censorship was starting to come

4:11

in and they wanted to make the

4:13

case. Well, we're actually doing great art and

4:15

here we're going to show that by

4:17

giving awards to ourselves for the best picture

4:19

and the best director and best actor

4:21

and that sort of thing. And

4:23

when they came up with a

4:25

list of who would get an Oscar,

4:28

was there a reason that they

4:30

bypassed stunt people? The only reason was

4:32

that they didn't think of stunt

4:34

people as being all that important. I

4:36

mean, this is back when stunt

4:38

people were barely getting paid. They had

4:40

zero industry protections. There would

4:42

be reports of how many stunt people had

4:44

died in that given year. I mean, people

4:46

were dying making these movies. You

4:48

know, they had to sign these things

4:50

that, you know, colloquially called blood sheets,

4:53

which were these contracts. Saying

4:55

that they weren't going to sue if

4:57

they were maimed or killed on shoots and

4:59

things like that and this I mean

5:01

this is what I mean Also, and I

5:03

said they were largely anonymous too. They

5:05

were not generally seen as In most cases

5:07

people didn't even know who they're what

5:10

their names were so you know Why even

5:12

bother to give them awards? When does

5:14

it start to feel? Strange

5:16

or unjust to people that

5:18

there is no category

5:20

for stunt work The

5:24

real movement for it

5:26

begins in 1991 a legendary

5:28

stunt coordinator named Jack

5:30

Gill is working with the

5:32

director Sidney Lumet on

5:34

the film A Stranger Among

5:37

Us and it's Sidney

5:39

Lumet who actually says to

5:41

him, Why isn't there

5:43

an Oscar for stunts? So

5:45

Jack Gill enters the

5:47

Academy and you know, he

5:49

begins to advocate for stunt Oscar. We feel

5:51

like we're being left out. We feel

5:53

like there's a big hole in the academy

5:55

and we should be included in it.

5:57

It should be a no -brainer decision that

5:59

happens overnight. And the thing he always said

6:01

was, you know, at first they seemed

6:03

really open to the idea, but over the

6:05

years, you know, he found more and

6:08

more doors just shut in his face. And

6:10

towards the end, he said they won't even

6:12

meet with me anymore. This was in 2019.

6:15

How come? He didn't know. Like he did

6:17

not know why they had stopped meeting with

6:19

him. Over the years, he'd

6:21

been given all sorts of different excuses for

6:23

why there couldn't be a stunt Oscar. For

6:25

a while, people would say, well, you

6:27

know, we don't want another category at

6:30

the Oscars. The show is already too

6:32

long. Who wants another category? And then

6:34

not only do we not want this

6:36

category, but like this category. It's

6:38

a technical category. I mean the

6:41

Oscars for years were trying to as

6:43

hard as they could to sideline

6:45

the technical categories They thought to get

6:47

more viewers and to sort of

6:49

be a better You know awards show

6:51

experience what they really needed was

6:54

more glitz more glamour You know ways

6:56

to get more famous people give

6:58

out bigger awards In their eyes a

7:00

stunt Oscar was not going to

7:02

be that is there also an issue

7:04

with the very work being rewarded

7:07

here the fact that it's dangerous to

7:09

do these stunts could be a

7:11

deterrent, right? You start giving people awards

7:13

for doing dangerous stuff. Maybe they

7:15

start doing more and more dangerous stuff.

7:17

Yes. And that was another thing

7:20

that Jack you'll heard and that I've

7:22

heard as well over the years,

7:24

you know, there were certain folks in

7:26

the academy who felt that, you

7:28

know, if you gave an Oscar for

7:30

stunts, then, you know, stunt people

7:33

would start hurting themselves and maybe even

7:35

killing themselves, trying to create

7:37

more and more elaborate stunts because

7:39

they were trying to win an Oscar.

7:44

Being intelligent is much more important to

7:46

stun people nowadays than just toughness. I

7:48

would like to think that we will

7:50

use the awards to push ourselves creatively

7:52

and use every tool in the book

7:54

to push it and make it look. My

7:58

name is Chad Stahelski. I'm the

8:00

director of the John Wick series, show

8:02

was one, two, three and four. We're

8:07

stunt people for a reason. There's

8:12

a certain ego involved. There's a

8:14

certain mentality involved when you want to

8:16

be an A -list or tier one

8:18

stunt performer. I think now rather

8:20

than pushing risk, we push creativity to

8:22

do greater things. And I think

8:24

we're going to push the envelope of

8:26

what audience sees. But let's hope

8:28

we don't push it past the point of safety. Let's

8:30

hope we push the past of what's the norm

8:32

and push the envelopes of how we make it safe

8:34

so we can be a lot more creative in how

8:36

to put our tools together. My

8:43

name is Zoe Bell. I

8:45

feel like sort of once a stunt person,

8:47

always a stunt person, so I would still refer

8:49

to myself as a stunt person. Any

8:53

coordinator that is really good and

8:56

intuitive knows that safety is key

8:58

so yes the risk might go

9:00

higher but hopefully the technology to

9:02

sort of divert from as much

9:04

of that risk as possible kind

9:07

of comes hand in hand with

9:09

that and I think look it's

9:11

just inherent as we evolve inherently

9:13

the risk goes up across the

9:15

board because we're always pushing and

9:17

always breaking boundaries and so that

9:20

I think is kind of built

9:22

in. If

9:25

anything, stunts have gotten safer and safer

9:27

over the years. Great.

9:44

Look at the historical trajectory of stunts

9:46

back when they weren't getting any awards

9:48

and nobody knew who the heck they

9:50

were and nobody was rushing to sort

9:52

of talk about how amazing the stunts

9:54

were in movies. That's when people were

9:56

dying, right? The more that we've actually

9:59

focused on stunts and the more aware

10:01

we've become of stunts, they've gotten, if

10:03

anything, safer. It's my job

10:05

to say I don't think I can

10:07

do that safely or beautifully enough,

10:09

whatever the... situation is. It's also my

10:11

job to go. I've never done

10:13

it to that extent, but I know

10:15

I can. Let's fucking go. But

10:17

as a stunt coordinator, they have

10:19

to be able to read that when I'm

10:21

saying to them, I trust that I can

10:24

do that. They have to be able to

10:26

read me well enough to know whether

10:28

I'm full of horse or not. The other

10:30

thing is, I always found that that argument

10:32

was sort of rooted in a certain Hollywood

10:34

elitism. I think a lot of them thought

10:36

of these guys as, you know, these

10:38

are people whose job it is to, you

10:40

know, get run over by

10:42

a car. Like, do we really

10:44

want them to be in on our

10:46

fancy little awards show where we're,

10:49

you know, eating hors d 'oeuvres and

10:51

drinking champagne and talking about what great

10:53

artists we are? You know, so

10:55

there are all sorts of weird classes

10:57

and comes into it. So what?

10:59

change the Academy's mind. That's a

11:01

very good question. I mean, I don't know

11:03

if there was any one thing that set

11:05

it off. What I will

11:07

say is, I mean, more and

11:09

more people have been advocating for this

11:11

for the past few years. I

11:13

think it's time we give a little

11:15

love to our stunt coordinators and

11:17

our stunt crews. A lot of

11:19

other filmmakers have been vocal about it.

11:21

People like George Miller, people like

11:24

Quentin Tarantino, and actors have

11:26

been very vocal about it. Arnold

11:28

Schwarzenegger, Keanu Reeves, Ryan Gosling,

11:30

Tom Cruise, obviously all these people have

11:32

at various points talked about the need

11:34

for a stunt Oscar. And last year,

11:36

you know, the fall guy ended with

11:38

a song about how there still is

11:40

no stunt Oscar, right? I mean, this

11:42

is actually, you know, it was like

11:44

a plot point almost in the film. I

11:49

don't know if you heard, but

11:51

my stunt brothers and sisters don't

11:53

get no gold. So here's to

11:55

the unsung heroes. So

11:57

it's become more and more of

11:59

a thing more and more people

12:01

have talked about it Hollywood runs

12:03

on action movies, right? I mean

12:06

action blockbusters and superhero films, you

12:08

know action fantasies, you know all

12:10

the kind of big franchise films

12:12

run on action stunts are a

12:14

huge part of all of those

12:16

films and The more that Hollywood

12:18

has become reliant on these I

12:20

think the more it became unavoidable

12:22

that they had to start honoring one

12:25

of the biggest elements of this type

12:27

of film. A

12:35

lot of people collaborate to

12:37

make any one stunt happen,

12:39

so who gets the Oscar?

12:42

We're gonna ask next on Today Explained.

12:58

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15:12

So who gets the Oscar for a

15:14

stunt? Is it the stunt coordinator,

15:17

the stunt people, the director, all

15:19

of the above? Well, that's

15:21

that's one of the big questions. You

15:23

know, for years when Jack Gill

15:25

was, you know, stumping for a best

15:28

stunts Oscar category, his contention was,

15:30

listen, it would go to the stunt

15:32

coordinator and there's a stunt coordinator

15:34

on any film that has

15:36

stunts. But, you know,

15:38

on any given film, the

15:41

exact combination of who is responsible for

15:43

the stunts is different, right? Like a

15:45

good, a really good director, some of

15:47

the top directors out there, they're part

15:49

of everything. It's their vision, right? Like,

15:51

I design a lot of the action

15:53

in John Wick because of my background,

15:55

I get to help design that. But

15:57

not every director comes from 30 years

15:59

of stunts. So they need help, but

16:02

they have this vision. I want character

16:04

beats. So like, what I'm saying is,

16:06

filmmaking in general at a high level

16:08

is always collaborative and there's it would

16:10

be impossible to separate the lines. So

16:13

the stunt department and the stunt

16:15

people involved in the design and execution,

16:17

I think, should be involved. Now,

16:20

every movie is different. You know that.

16:22

You can look at a John Wick. There's

16:24

400 stunt people from five different countries.

16:26

There's four choreographers. There's three stunt coordinators. There's

16:28

a rigor, a driving coordinator. So who

16:30

gets it? So it'll be a case where,

16:32

on any given film, they're going to

16:34

have to determine who is the person to

16:37

get it. I don't know if this

16:39

is the thing that would go to one

16:41

person. or if it be, you know,

16:43

the way Best Picture goes to three producers.

16:45

So, you know, with the

16:47

stunt Oscar, they'll figure out, I

16:49

mean, it'll go to some combination

16:51

of the credited stunt coordinator, sometimes

16:53

maybe the filmmaker. You know,

16:55

I don't think necessarily it means Tom Cruise is

16:57

gonna get up there for, you know,

17:00

and pick up an Oscar for a Mission Impossible

17:02

movie, but who knows, maybe he will. Are

17:04

the stunt people happy with how

17:06

this has all been set up? I

17:08

would imagine that they're elated. I

17:12

tend to sort of minimize stuff

17:14

kind of immediately, like, well, you

17:16

know, but when I think about...

17:18

my comrades and all my workmates

17:20

that have in the past. When

17:23

I think of like the Genie

17:25

Eppers of the world, like I'm

17:27

so sad that Genie Epper didn't

17:29

get a chance to see this

17:31

happen. Epper grew up in a

17:33

family of stunt performers, setting out

17:36

early on a legendary 70 -year

17:38

career, highlighted by her work as

17:40

the stunt double to Linda Carter's

17:42

Wonder Woman. I know my neighbors

17:44

think I'm nuts. They say, what are

17:46

you going to do today, Genie? I

17:55

just feel like a

17:57

really deep sense of validation

17:59

for her entire career

18:01

and her entire life and

18:03

her entire family and

18:05

the generations and you know

18:07

so that for me

18:09

really resonated was thinking about

18:11

my people and my

18:13

industry as a whole I

18:15

felt really long -deserved recognition

18:18

Super grateful. It's kind of

18:20

cool. Of course, it's always be great to

18:22

be recognized. Always tricky to say, most

18:24

stunt performers, and I'm sure if you interview a lot

18:26

of us, especially from the older

18:28

generations, stunt performers were always

18:31

meant to be like the little hidden secret, the

18:33

trick behind the curtain, if you will. But

18:35

still, that doesn't mean you don't want

18:37

to be recognized by your peers and

18:39

all that. Look, I think it's very

18:41

cool. The Academy is doing it. I think it's at

18:43

a really good time. So to

18:45

be recognized in that, yeah, I think it's a

18:48

cool. at least both performing and technical achievement. I

18:50

think it's pretty cool. Okay.

18:54

So who's going to get the first

18:56

Oscar for stunt design? Do we just assume

18:58

it's Tom Cruise? Cause like, you know,

19:00

there's a Mission Impossible movie coming out this

19:02

year. Well, he has a

19:04

Mission Impossible movie coming out this

19:06

year and. everyone seems

19:08

to accept that it's going to

19:10

be his last one. So

19:13

he won't be eligible for

19:15

that movie, because the first awards

19:17

are going to be given

19:19

to films released in 2027. 2027?

19:22

What if we don't make it to

19:24

2027? Well, then we've got bigger problems. Then

19:26

maybe the stunt people can help us

19:28

in other ways, like teaching us how to

19:30

survive in a post -apocalyptic wasteland. But yeah,

19:32

2027. So, you know, unless... comes up

19:34

with another mission. I mean, he is planning

19:36

on doing, I think he's still planning

19:38

on doing that movie where he goes to

19:41

space. So maybe we'll get it for

19:43

that one. He's going to have to come

19:45

back to Mission Impossible just to win

19:47

this Oscar. And is it even in 2027

19:49

or is it in 2028? The award

19:51

will be in 2028. It's for the movies.

19:53

That's even longer. It's even longer. Tom

19:55

Cruise is going to be like 85 years

19:58

old or something. I've

20:00

always thought that Tom Cruise should be

20:02

the first person to present the best

20:04

of Stunts Oscar. There you go. But,

20:06

you know, who knows? Who knows how

20:09

it'll work out. All right, Bill, go

20:11

well, you know, since our listeners, after

20:13

listening to us yammer on about Stunts

20:15

and the Oscars for 20 minutes here,

20:18

they won't even get to see.

20:20

this stunt -inclusive Oscars for years. I

20:22

wonder if we can leave them

20:24

with something. I know the Oscars

20:26

love a montage. Perhaps

20:28

we can do our own

20:30

little montage right now of

20:32

all the great stunts over

20:34

a century of Hollywood that

20:36

never got love from the

20:38

Oscars. What

20:41

should be in the montage that will

20:43

that'll happen in 2028, but we're gonna

20:45

do on right now Well first we

20:48

got to start with movies that were

20:50

even before the Oscars started because you've

20:52

got to include stuff like Buster Keaton's

20:54

The General and films like that Buster

20:56

Keaton's Sherlock Jr. Steamboat

20:59

Bill Jr. You have

21:01

to think about some of the

21:03

great western stunts, you know, like

21:05

in Stagecoach. And then you have

21:07

to think about films like the

21:10

great, you know, Sword and Sandal

21:12

epics like Ben Hur and, you

21:14

know, L Sid and,

21:16

you know, the great epics of the

21:18

1950s and 60s where there were a

21:20

lot of elaborate stunt work and a

21:22

lot of riding. I

21:24

think Lawrence of Arabia has got some

21:26

of the greatest battle sequences ever. You've

21:29

got to start thinking about the great

21:31

car movies, right? You've got to think

21:33

about bullet, the car chasing bullet. You've

21:35

got to think about the car slash

21:37

subway chase in The French Connection. And

21:42

then, you know, this is also

21:44

when we get Star Wars, right? Star

21:47

Wars comes out in the late

21:49

70s. I mean, it completely redefines the

21:51

idea of the blockbuster. You start

21:53

thinking about Raiders of the Lost Ark.

21:57

Under the truck what Terry Leonard did. It

22:00

was fucking amazing, right? He climbs across the

22:02

horses and he goes under the horse and

22:04

under the cart. There's nothing, like, look at

22:06

the fight scenes. The big German guy that

22:08

he fought by the plane and then swinging

22:10

under it. Like, there's a lot of action

22:13

in Raiders of the Lost Ark, but it

22:15

all moved the character forward. Nothing was gratuitous.

22:17

It wasn't just car crashes. Like, it was

22:19

awesome. So then we start going through the

22:21

80s. You know, you got to look at

22:23

movies like Die Hard. God, please don't let

22:25

me die. Remancing the Stone. The

22:28

big mud slide. That, I

22:30

was like, that's a girl doing that.

22:32

And that's Genie Epa. You

22:34

gotta look at Terminator movies.

22:36

I'll be back. Back

22:39

in the day, if Jackie Chan came out

22:41

with, you know, Police Story 2, Fireworks Factory,

22:43

like, give you a fuck. I'm all over

22:45

it, like, it's a great gag. And

22:49

then we get stuff

22:51

like Jurassic Park, Terminator

22:53

2, Titanic. Think

22:59

of a film like the Mask of

23:01

Zorro, right? Which is

23:03

a great, great, you know, action

23:05

movie full of amazing writing and

23:07

amazing, you know, swashbuckling stunts. Think

23:13

about the James Bond

23:16

movies all across this huge

23:18

swath of time. Moonraker

23:32

which is not one of the great

23:35

James Bond movies but has that incredible

23:37

sequence at the start with people jumping

23:39

out of airplanes without parachutes and stuff

23:41

like that and those are real stunts

23:43

and though that was the first time

23:45

anybody did that and that was also

23:47

stunt camera work you know you had

23:49

camera people with like helmet cams and

23:51

things like that like flying through the

23:53

air recording this stuff so yeah so

23:55

the James Bond movies all

23:57

throughout this period. And then you have

23:59

sequences, like Bad Boys 2, The Card

24:01

Chase. You know, fucking with

24:03

Michael Bay. Awesome. I

24:09

find it hard to

24:11

not bring up the death

24:13

-proof sequence because... I mean,

24:15

just because, honestly, it's

24:18

the only work of mine

24:20

that to this day

24:22

doesn't matter how many times

24:24

I've seen it. When

24:26

I watch it, I still get

24:28

a sort of visceral response as

24:30

an audience member. Like, I find

24:32

myself going, even though I know

24:34

for a fact my feet are

24:36

not, they're not in any danger.

24:38

But I still sort of flinch

24:40

and cringe as if it's not

24:42

me watching me. Batman,

24:47

the Dark Knight returns, flipping the

24:49

semi. Great gag. You

24:52

know Mad Max Fury Road

24:54

is an incredible, incredible film full

24:56

of incredible riding stunts and

24:58

all sorts of other stunts as

25:00

well. That film is full

25:02

of just incredible, incredible action. A

25:04

lot of which was done for real and

25:06

we're very careful to make sure everything felt real.

25:08

Oh what a day! What a

25:10

lovely day! Bilga

25:18

Abiri writes for Vulture

25:20

over at New York Magazine.

25:22

You can subscribe at

25:24

nymag.com. Chad Stahelski and Zoe

25:26

Bell make movies, and

25:29

they have made some really good ones. Hadi

25:31

Mawagdi made this show. Jolie Myers,

25:33

Amna Al -Sadi, Laura Bullard, Andrea

25:35

Kustin's daughter, and Patrick Boyd would

25:38

share the Oscar with him. The

25:40

rest of the team at today's

25:42

explain includes Amanda Llewellyn, Abishai Artsy,

25:44

Miles Bryan, Carla Javier, Victoria

25:46

Chamberlain, Peter Balanon -Rosen,

25:48

Devin Schwartz, Gabrielle Bourbet, our

25:51

executive producer Miranda Kennedy, and our executive

25:53

host Noel King. We use music by

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Breakmaster Cylinder. Today, Explained is distributed by

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