0:00

Dyerwolves, not just a

0:02

thing from Game of Thrones, not

0:04

just John Snow's best friend.

0:06

Dyerwolves walked the Americas for

0:09

millennia up until about 14,000

0:11

years ago when maybe their

0:13

primary food source dried up

0:15

or humans hunted them to

0:17

extinction. No one was taking

0:19

notes. But we know they

0:21

were a bit bigger than

0:23

gray wolves. They ate a

0:25

lot of meat and their

0:27

bite could crush bones. And

0:29

now we know... that apparently

0:31

dire wolves are back? A

0:33

startup called colossal says they've

0:36

brought these pups back from

0:38

extinction. They say they've got

0:40

three of them, but are

0:42

these dire wolves they brought

0:44

back? Actually, dire wolves? And

0:47

whether they are or aren't,

0:49

should we be trying to bring

0:51

dire wolves back? Like, why? We're

0:54

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2:00

This is today explained. Not a

2:02

lot of people have seen these

2:04

dire wolves that have come back

2:06

from extinction up close and

2:08

personal-like. D.T. Max from The

2:10

New Yorker is one of

2:12

the few who has. Okay, so first

2:15

of all, we just got to get

2:17

this out there. We either have to put

2:19

dire wolves in quotes or we

2:21

have to give them a name

2:23

like, I don't know, we could

2:25

do anything like... How about diet

2:28

dire wolves? Yes, exactly. Exactly. These

2:30

so-called dire wolves are created

2:32

by extracting DNA from a 72,000-year-old

2:35

dire wolf in a earbone and

2:37

a 13,000-year-old dire wolf tooth. They

2:39

determine its closest living relative is

2:42

the gray wolf, so then they

2:44

made 20 edits to gray wolf

2:46

DNA to include those dire wolf

2:49

specific genes. That animal looks like

2:51

a dire wolf. It will behave

2:53

like a dire wolf. This is

2:55

insane, actually. These are not dire

2:57

wolves by any definition. But the

2:59

other point is it doesn't really

3:01

matter when you're seeing them, because,

3:03

you know, you're seeing something, you

3:05

know, that's absolutely amazing. I mean,

3:07

you're seeing something that, well, so

3:09

there's two bright white wolves. I

3:12

did not see them where they

3:14

live. I saw them where they

3:16

were brought to be seen, which

3:18

was far, far away. And you

3:20

can't tell us where that was,

3:22

but it's somewhere in the northern

3:24

United States I've read. Yeah, look,

3:26

I do hold bigger secrets as

3:28

a journalist, but I'm not supposed to

3:30

tell you where. But so what happens,

3:32

okay, so first of all, I see

3:34

a couple of people I know from

3:36

the reporting on the piece, I see

3:39

George Church. who looks as much like

3:41

Gandoff as any human being on this

3:43

planet who holds tenure. And I also

3:45

see Ben Lamb, the guy who founded

3:48

the project, looks a lot like, it's

3:50

Johnny Snow, right? The point is, like,

3:52

it's the perfect setup. And then there

3:54

are these two bright white teenage

3:56

wolfs wolf. So, you know, even any

3:59

wolf is in. So it's not, I

4:01

mean, I have actually seen wolves

4:03

before for another article, strangely enough.

4:05

So a wolf carries its own

4:07

weird kind of authority with it.

4:09

But these, they do look different.

4:12

And again, I'm not an animal

4:14

morphologist. So, you know, I've been

4:16

told pale, but they're white. And

4:18

they're, they're like blissfully heedless of

4:20

how much like, like, Money and

4:22

effort has gone into the creation

4:25

of them. They're basically, you know,

4:27

they're in this enclosure They are

4:29

doing little things wolves do and

4:31

dogs sometimes do one peas the

4:33

other rolls in it But you

4:35

know, they're they're majestic. They are

4:37

going about their quasi meta dire

4:40

wolf existence blissful disregard for any

4:42

controversy about what you want to

4:44

call them or or blissful disregard

4:46

of whether they should have been

4:48

brought back in the first place

4:50

Tell us more about this company

4:53

that brought back the diet, dire

4:55

wolf version that you saw. It's

4:57

called. We could do this all

4:59

day. It's called colossal. It's run

5:01

by a dude named Ben Lamb.

5:03

Who is he? What is he

5:05

trying to do here? So I

5:08

mean, Ben Lamb is kind of

5:10

amazing. I am pretty much in

5:12

all of Benham. He's a guy

5:14

who's maybe 40-something. He's already had

5:16

like four or five successes by

5:18

which he started up four or

5:21

five companies and they were bought

5:23

out by larger companies, which is

5:25

kind of what you want to

5:27

do when you're a startup guy.

5:29

And then, you know, one day

5:31

he meets a guy named George

5:33

Church, church being the Gandoff of

5:36

our earlier narrative, if that survives.

5:38

is a Harvard professor, a guy

5:40

who's gotten a million patents and

5:42

loves to do deep thinking, he's

5:44

a big kind of what-if guy?

5:46

Like what if we were to

5:49

bring back the Neanderthal? And then

5:51

the press goes, ah, and then

5:53

George first goes, ah. just considering

5:55

it. I just thinking about it.

5:57

You guys come down. So George

5:59

Church and Ben get together and

6:01

they basically what Ben says is

6:04

if you had all the money

6:06

in the world, George, what would

6:08

you bring back? What would you

6:10

want to do with your time?

6:12

And George says I'd bring back

6:14

the woolly mammoth. Sick. I mean,

6:17

I don't know if it's responsible,

6:19

but it sounds cool. Right right

6:21

exactly and you know they get

6:23

together. It's like let's put on

6:25

a show right and you know

6:27

this being Ben Lam super talented

6:29

Perfectly adapted modern entrepreneur and he

6:32

raises my basically I don't know

6:34

the details I think he raises

6:36

money with a phone call because

6:38

he's got a great second idea

6:40

and his second idea is well

6:42

we learn how to de extinct

6:45

these animals We're gonna learn an

6:47

awful lot of interesting biomedical tech

6:49

and that we could sell. That's

6:51

where we make our money. We're

6:53

not gonna make our money. He's

6:55

very, very firm on this side.

6:57

There will be no Jurassic Park.

7:00

We will not display these animals.

7:02

You know, let's check back in

7:04

in five years, but we will

7:06

spin off the biotech. And the

7:08

biotech is honestly probably worth even

7:10

more than what is Disney World

7:13

charged now or Disneyland? Hundreds, hundreds.

7:15

All right, so maybe I take

7:17

that back. Maybe the better business

7:19

is displaying them. How much

7:21

money have they raised to do

7:23

this and and how much is

7:26

this company that they're running colossal

7:28

worth at this point? All right,

7:30

so they've now raised over $400

7:32

million and their valuation, which is

7:34

a kind of complicated metric involving

7:36

what shares are worth is over

7:38

$10 billion, which puts it at

7:41

the size level of moderna. They've

7:43

had an insane, insane first, you

7:45

know, first few years. And I

7:47

ask you this not because like

7:49

Paris Hilton or Peter Jackson, I'm

7:51

planning on investing in this company,

7:53

but because I wanted to establish

7:55

that people are taking these people.

7:58

Seriously. And now that we've establish

8:00

that, do us a favor and

8:02

tell us just how hard it

8:04

is to do what this company

8:06

says it wants to do. The

8:08

dire wolf is not. Let me

8:10

just get this out there for

8:12

everybody. The dire wolf is not,

8:15

there's a difference between being extinct

8:17

for 40 million years and being

8:19

extinct for 14,000 years. They both

8:21

sound like a long time to

8:23

us, but you know, it's just

8:25

not comparable. So you can get,

8:27

you can get, I can't get,

8:29

you can't get, the best Shapiro

8:32

could get viable. Ancient DNA. Now,

8:34

what you do with that DNA

8:36

is you read the genetic sequences

8:38

and then you recreate them, right?

8:40

And you're gonna put that DNA

8:42

in the cells and the cells

8:44

are gonna replicate and you're gonna

8:46

have an animal. Ultimately, once you

8:49

put it in embryo and then

8:51

implant it in a womb, you're

8:53

gonna have an animal that has

8:55

those genes being acted on. That

8:57

makes it sound like you or

8:59

I could probably do it with

9:01

just a little bit of help.

9:04

But it's not that easy because

9:06

there are problems. you know at

9:08

every step of the way and

9:10

it's a little bit like if

9:12

I described you how to hit

9:14

a home run you'd be like

9:16

yeah okay I you know there's

9:18

the force and there's the counter

9:21

force and there's the angle of

9:23

the swing but most people don't

9:25

hit home runs. You mentioned someone

9:27

named Beth Shapiro who's now I

9:29

think one of the leading scientists

9:31

over a colossal and someone like

9:33

Beth Shapiro comes from I believe

9:35

you see Santa Cruz out in

9:38

California, where she was doing versions

9:40

of this kind of work, if

9:42

not trying to revive the woolly

9:44

mammoth, can colossal work faster than

9:46

your, I don't know, typical elite

9:48

university lab? Yeah, I mean, I

9:50

don't think you can get that

9:52

much money going at a university

9:55

lab without a fair amount of

9:57

grant writing. writing is slow and

9:59

getting funded is slow. There's a

10:01

guy named Lova Dalen who's a

10:03

Swedish. I think he made a

10:05

really good point in my piece,

10:07

that nobody's really picked up on.

10:09

And I think it's about the

10:12

money, which he said, like, the

10:14

people who invested in this company

10:16

weren't going to give, you know,

10:18

I'm paraphrasing him, $100 million to

10:20

the World Wildlife Fund. Like, you

10:22

know, their tech people, they probably

10:24

would have bought Bitcoin with it

10:27

otherwise. Like this, you know, Peter

10:29

Jackson said that owning, being a

10:31

part of colossal is as much

10:33

fun as movie making. You

10:38

know, I think that kind of tells

10:41

you something I don't think if they've

10:43

been doing this in best Shapiro's old

10:45

lab at the University of California Santa

10:47

Cruz He'd have thought it was as

10:50

much fun You know as movie making

10:52

I mean I give I give colossal

10:54

a lot of credit and Ben Lamb

10:57

in particular a lot of credit for

10:59

meeting people where they actually are. I

11:01

mean, I, all I can say is

11:04

a journalist, someone who writes about people,

11:06

and I have written about conservation other

11:08

times, other places, I am not opposed

11:11

to the idea that if you're ever

11:13

actually going to turn around this massive

11:15

environmental disaster that is the present, you've

11:18

really got to meet people where they

11:20

are. To bring this back to where

11:22

we started DT, with Romulus and Remus,

11:25

these two diet... dire wolves. What happens

11:27

to them? I do. I'm going to

11:29

stick with it. What happens to them?

11:32

Where do they go? You know,

11:34

never say never, but I think

11:36

they're expected to live out their

11:38

lives. I think a wolf gets

11:40

the same 15 years, I think

11:42

that a smaller dog gets, live

11:44

out their lives. You know, they

11:47

will not be, they will not

11:49

hunt. They will be given like,

11:51

I don't know if you've ever

11:53

been to a zoo and seen

11:55

what they feed the lions and

11:57

tigers, they feed them like something

11:59

they would have hunted, but they

12:02

didn't hunt it. Like just oozing,

12:04

bleeding. massive amounts of meat and

12:06

I think that's what the dire

12:08

wolves are going to get. But

12:10

they're not planning to breed them,

12:12

which I don't entirely understand that.

12:15

Colossel talks a lot about like

12:17

reintroducing some of their animals into

12:19

the ecosystem to do environmental good.

12:21

I don't think the dire wolf

12:23

was conceived by them with that

12:25

as a possibility. First of all,

12:27

I mean, people don't want dire

12:30

wolves in their backyard. When you

12:32

realized that these diet wolves would

12:34

just die out, did that? bomb

12:36

you out? What did you make

12:38

of that? Yes, yes I did.

12:40

It was a, it was absolutely,

12:42

you know, there were a number

12:45

of sad moments in reporting this

12:47

piece. I mean, first of all,

12:49

you have to kind of come

12:51

to grips with the immensity of

12:53

the damage that humans have done,

12:55

and for how long we've been

12:57

doing it, because the dire wolf

13:00

is essentially driven extinct mostly by

13:02

human activity, you know, 14, you

13:04

know, 14, years ago. But I

13:06

don't know, when you realize that

13:08

this whole thing is kind of

13:10

to show we can, yeah, it

13:13

becomes sad because wasn't, isn't one

13:15

of the reasons that we used

13:17

to drive animals extinct because we

13:19

could, because there was money in

13:21

it, and isn't it kind of

13:23

weird that we're now deextincting an

13:25

animal, you know, kind of because

13:28

we now have this, this technology

13:30

that can reopen the door that

13:32

we see, we thought that we

13:34

had. Absolutely, and, and, you know,

13:36

uh, incontrovertibly closed before, then the

13:38

whole thing leaves you a little

13:40

bit blue. D.T. Max, read his

13:43

profile of the dire wolves over

13:45

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13:47

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15:52

So, You're

16:01

listening to Today Explained. I'm Robert

16:03

Clitzman. I'm a professor of psychiatry

16:05

and director of the Online and

16:08

In Person Master's of Bioethics Programs

16:10

at Columbia University and the author

16:12

of Designing Babies, how technology is

16:14

changing the ways we create children.

16:17

And when we look at these

16:19

diet dire wolves in the Northern

16:21

United States somewhere by way of

16:23

colossal, do we feel more good

16:26

or bad? I think there is

16:28

a lot of excitement. It's definitely

16:30

cool to bring back extinct species,

16:32

but there's a lot of questions

16:35

we have about where these animals

16:37

will live, what their lives will

16:39

be like, why we're doing this,

16:41

what the long-term view or vision

16:44

is, and a lot of that

16:46

depends on how the technology is

16:48

then used and what happens. Well,

16:50

let's talk about, to start with,

16:53

what do you think of the

16:55

ethics of the process? by which

16:57

these dire wolves have come to

16:59

be. Obviously, let's just think about

17:02

whatever animal it was that birt

17:04

these dire wolves, not a dire

17:06

wolf, I assume. Right. So there's

17:08

a few issues that come up.

17:11

One is where making a bunch

17:13

of dogs pregnant to produce them,

17:15

and I have concerns about the

17:17

dire wolves, but more importantly, the

17:20

company has said that its longer

17:22

term plan is to produce... or

17:24

reproduce or to create a woolly

17:26

mammoth. And with that there are

17:29

even bigger concerns because that you'd

17:31

have to take elephants, you'd have

17:33

to get many elephants, female elephants,

17:35

and nesticeize them. You'd have to

17:38

stick probes up their vagina to

17:40

extract eggs. You'd have to then

17:42

get many elephants pregnant. some will

17:44

not miscarry, some will miscarry, then

17:47

you'll have to do C-sections on

17:49

the elephants to get the willy

17:51

mammoths out. So that's going to

17:53

be very... and it's going to

17:56

hurt a lot of elephants. So

17:58

dire wolves, we have three of

18:00

them that were created, and I

18:02

should say they're not really dire

18:05

wolves, they're... Gray wolves that have

18:07

had about 15 of their genes

18:09

changed, so of 80 potential genes

18:11

it could be changed, they've changed

18:14

15. And when we're mucking around

18:16

with nature and changing genes, mistakes

18:18

get made, genes have multiple functions

18:20

that we don't always know about.

18:23

So for instance, five of the

18:25

genes that colossal was going to

18:27

change because they were in dire

18:29

wolves, but not in gray wolves.

18:32

The researchers decided not to change

18:34

because these... Genes would create deafness

18:36

and blindness in the dire wolf.

18:38

So we don't always know when

18:41

we're altering genes what the effects

18:43

are going to be. Genes have

18:45

multiple effects. About five years ago,

18:47

Dr. Heijan Quay in China genetically

18:50

engineered three children. He took the

18:52

embryos and he wanted to disable

18:54

a gene called the CCR5 gene

18:56

to prevent HIV from getting in

18:59

the cells because he was going

19:01

to work with HIV positive fathers.

19:03

But in disabling that gene, other

19:05

viruses are more likely to enter

19:08

the cell. So West Nile virus

19:10

is more likely to enter the

19:12

cell. So you may disable a

19:14

gene because you want one thing

19:17

or put a mutation in or

19:19

change a gene because you want

19:21

one thing, but other things may

19:23

happen. So these wolves may end

19:26

up having other kinds of medical

19:28

problems. These are big animals, they're

19:30

150 pounds, colossal, has them on

19:32

about three square miles, whereas normally

19:35

they usually live in areas between

19:37

50 and 1,000 square miles, so

19:39

we're keeping them at a very

19:41

constricted space, their risk of other

19:44

diseases, so I'm concerned about their

19:46

welfare. So it sounds like you

19:48

have a host of concerns, and

19:50

throughout listening to you describe many

19:53

of them, I hear the potential

19:55

for death lurking... at every corner,

19:57

which is I guess an irony

20:00

of this. process known as D

20:02

extinction is that it sounds like

20:04

you sure got to kill a

20:06

lot of animals to get to

20:09

the point of bringing back an

20:11

animal that, as we heard from

20:13

D.T. earlier, might end up simply

20:15

just dying off again, which I

20:18

guess gets to the point of

20:20

cruelty. Where is the regulation when

20:22

it comes to this process of

20:24

the extinction? Where

20:28

there are no regulations and that could

20:30

create problems. So there had been guidelines

20:32

that were developed before we actually had

20:34

any extinct animals to look at. There

20:37

was one animal, a goat in the

20:39

Pyrenees, the mountains between Spain and France,

20:41

it was brought back and lived for

20:44

10 minutes. So the guidelines we have

20:46

aren't very good and we don't really

20:48

have any, we have no government regulations

20:50

on this. And in fact, the... Trump's

20:53

president Trump's secretary of the interior Doug

20:55

Borgam came out the other day and

20:57

said that's great the Colossus is doing

20:59

this because now we don't have to

21:02

worry about driving other animals into extinction.

21:04

If we're going to be in anguish

21:06

about about about losing a species and

21:08

now we have an opportunity to bring

21:11

them back. I mean, pick your favorite

21:13

species and call up colossal and instead

21:15

of, you know, raising money to get

21:17

animals on the endangered species, let's figure

21:20

out a way to get them off

21:22

and this is one tool and create

21:24

biodiversity, what it can do for everybody.

21:26

Let him go. We don't need regulations

21:29

with his point to protect animals. We

21:31

can just, any animal that disappears will

21:33

just clone it back. And I think

21:35

a lot of the... The company Colosso

21:38

is worth $10 billion. It'd be great

21:40

if we can help animals that are

21:42

on the verge of extinction and help

21:44

them survive, given that we are losing,

21:47

as Colosso says, we're losing a lot

21:49

of animals every year, and we will

21:51

be losing more, partly due climate change.

21:53

Let's work on protecting those animals that

21:56

are still here and have a place

21:58

to live. We've

22:00

talked about a lot of the

22:02

risks here a lot of the

22:05

drawbacks. I want to talk about

22:07

some of the potential benefits Do

22:09

you see some good there if

22:11

we do indeed get? some medical

22:14

or scientific breakthroughs out of this

22:16

company's work. I mean, there's been

22:18

talk of rebalancing habitats, fixing mutations,

22:20

and endangered pink pigeons, vaccinating elephants

22:23

against herpes, sharpening our tools for

22:25

fighting diseases. There's apparently some potential

22:27

there. So unfortunately, the moment President

22:29

Trump has been cutting back hugely

22:32

on research at NIH, and the

22:34

national suits of health. has funded

22:36

immense amounts of research that have

22:38

led to immense human benefit partly

22:41

because it's been available for in

22:43

the public domain research is published

22:45

which is company hasn't published many

22:47

of its key findings so you

22:50

could argue that there is a

22:52

greater need to a focus public

22:54

dollars on this on research which

22:56

are now being drastically cut back

22:59

and secondly a question is whether

23:01

or not the prime aim here

23:03

is to help nature, help endangered

23:05

species, or to make money. Right?

23:07

And if I think as D.T.

23:10

wrote in his piece, the company

23:12

only plans to create maybe three

23:14

or five dire wolves. What's the

23:16

point? Is it to... develop science

23:19

that they can then sell or

23:21

is it to create these animals

23:23

which create huge publicity and this

23:25

has been the front cover of

23:28

Time magazine it's been on every

23:30

major news network it's been on

23:32

every major newspaper they're trying as

23:34

I understand to raise more money

23:37

so this gives them great profile

23:39

we're going to bring back these

23:41

five animals but is it to

23:43

help nature or is it to

23:46

raise more money and this is

23:48

sort of a poster child for

23:50

them the willy mammoth too which

23:52

is a long-range goal they say

23:55

It could lead to meat and

23:57

fur and tusks and they may

23:59

decrease global warming by... by tamping

24:01

down permafrost. Well, there's increasing amounts

24:04

of tundra, icy tundra for them

24:06

to live. To have an industry

24:08

of mammoth or in meat, you

24:10

need a lot of these animals,

24:13

and we don't have the space

24:15

for them. Maybe Russian Siberia somewhere

24:17

does. Good luck with that. Russians

24:19

aren't exactly our best buddies at

24:21

the moment. And even if these

24:24

animals do. Wherever they walk, press

24:26

down snow, the snow is going

24:28

to melt further because of climate

24:30

change. So you're not getting at

24:33

the source of climate change. So

24:35

I'm not sure how much the

24:37

end result is going to be

24:39

actually helping animals versus making money.

24:42

Dr. Klitzman, I thought of one

24:44

silver lining in all of this.

24:46

If what you're saying is true,

24:48

someone still cares about being on

24:51

the cover of Time magazine. You

24:53

mean that we still have magazines?

24:55

Yes. Yes. And I should say

24:57

I realize I'm coming across as

25:00

very negative. I don't mean to

25:02

come across as negative. I think

25:04

that science is very important. I

25:06

think given decreasing amounts of money

25:09

for science, it would be great

25:11

as we as a society could

25:13

spend it where it's going to

25:15

lead to the most bang for

25:18

the buck. where the cusp of,

25:20

for instance, new vaccines, all kinds

25:22

of new vaccine research that NIH

25:24

was about to start is now

25:27

ending. I think that near-term or

25:29

low-hanging fruit is there that we

25:31

can invest in that will be

25:33

able to help millions of people.

25:42

Dr. Robert Clitzman, Columbia University.

25:44

Dr. Devin Schwartz made our

25:46

show today. He was edited

25:48

by Joey Myers, fact-checked by

25:50

Laura Bullard, and mixed by

25:53

Andrea Kristen's daughter, and Patrick

25:55

Boyd. My name's Sean Ramosverum.

25:57

The show is today explained.

26:00

So,