0:00

This is the Guardian.

0:02

Today, he was deported

0:04

to a mega jail in

0:06

El Salvador on

0:08

what Trump's government is

0:11

calling an administrative error.

0:13

So why hasn't Kilmara

0:16

Brago Garcia been brought

0:18

back to the US?

0:25

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0:29

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forward slash today in

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focus to learn more. On

1:00

March 12th of this

1:02

year, after completing his

1:04

shift at work in

1:07

Baltimore, Abbego Garcia picked

1:09

up his five-year-old

1:11

son from his grandma's

1:13

home, he had his son

1:15

in the back seat when he

1:17

was pulled over by ice, and

1:19

an ice officer told him that

1:22

his status had changed.

1:24

meaning his immigration

1:26

status had changed.

1:29

And so within

1:31

minutes, Garcia was

1:33

handcuffed, detained, his

1:35

wife was called

1:37

and instructed to appear

1:40

within 10 minutes to get

1:42

their son, and she was

1:45

told that his son would

1:47

be handed over to child

1:50

protective services

1:52

if she didn't appear. as

1:54

to why he was being detained

1:57

exactly or what was happening. Within

2:00

three days he was on a

2:02

plane being deported to El Salvador.

2:05

It's been a month since

2:07

Kilmar Abrego Garcia was

2:09

deported from the US and

2:12

flown straight to an infamous

2:14

prison in his home country.

2:16

He was one of hundreds

2:19

of men flown out of

2:21

the US that day under

2:23

Donald Trump's mass deportation plan.

2:26

But he has no criminal

2:28

convictions convictions. And it's still

2:30

not clear why he was

2:33

arrested. Abrego Garcia was whisked

2:35

away because he was supposedly

2:37

part of MS-13 this dangerous

2:40

gang. And later

2:42

on, the Trump

2:44

administration admitted that

2:46

actually he was

2:48

deported due to an

2:51

administrative error. Now,

2:53

the Supreme Court

2:55

has ruled the

2:57

Trump administration must

2:59

bring him back

3:01

to the US.

3:03

From the Guardian,

3:05

I'm Hannah Moore.

3:08

Today in focus,

3:10

the deportation

3:12

case that's pitted

3:14

the President

3:16

against the US's highest court.

3:19

Can you just start off

3:21

by telling me a bit

3:23

of background about the man

3:25

who's at the center of this

3:28

story, the man we're going to

3:30

be focusing on today? Kilmar Amando

3:32

Abrego Garcia. Just tell me about

3:35

his life and how he came to the US.

3:37

Yeah, so Abrego Garcia is from

3:39

El Salvador and he came to

3:41

the US when he was 16

3:43

in 2011 and he was actually

3:45

fleeing, you know, community violence and

3:47

gang violence in his native country.

3:49

He has a brother who is

3:51

a US citizen who was living

3:53

in Maryland and that's where he's

3:55

been living ever since. He has

3:57

a wife who is a US

3:59

citizen. and a five-year-old child

4:01

who was also a citizen. I

4:03

believe he worked as a metal

4:06

worker. He was taking some university

4:08

classes. He has no criminal convictions

4:10

or he, you know, was just

4:12

sort of living a fairly average

4:14

life in the US. So what

4:17

was his immigration status? Had he

4:19

had any problems before with US

4:21

immigration and customs or ice? Ablego

4:24

Garcia did have an interaction with

4:26

the immigration system in 2019. He

4:29

and three other men were

4:31

detained at the parking lot of

4:33

a home depot and during

4:35

the questioning one of the

4:37

other men, so not Abrego

4:39

Garcia, said that Abrego Garcia

4:41

was a gang member. And

4:43

when that accusation was made

4:45

against him in 2019, what evidence

4:48

was there if any of his

4:50

being part of a gang? The proof,

4:52

if any, was extremely thin.

4:54

All it was was that

4:57

Abrego Garcia was wearing Chicago

4:59

Bulls paraphernalia and an associate

5:01

had accused him of being

5:04

a member of MS-13. So

5:06

he was wearing Chicago Bulls

5:09

merchandise, basketball teams merchandise. What

5:11

would that have to do

5:14

with him being a member of

5:16

a gang? immigrants without

5:18

status, including people who

5:20

are seeking asylum and

5:22

seeking permanent status in

5:24

the US. The immigration

5:26

system does not have to

5:28

prove a membership in order

5:30

to deport someone. And so

5:32

what this means is often

5:34

people are accused of being

5:37

gang members on extremely

5:39

thin evidence. And we've seen

5:41

this with other people who

5:44

were deported to El Salvador,

5:46

where they were deported based on

5:48

a soccer tattoo referencing the

5:51

team Real Madrid or a

5:53

Nike tattoo. In the end,

5:55

police did not identify him

5:58

as a gang member. he

6:00

was not charged with a

6:02

crime, but because of his

6:04

immigration status, he was handed

6:06

over to immigration officials and

6:08

faced deportation. But then his

6:10

lawyers contested his deportation because

6:12

there was concerns that if

6:14

he was sent back to

6:16

El Salvador, he would be

6:18

in danger of being a

6:20

victim of gang violence and

6:22

he received a withholding of removal,

6:24

which is basically a judge

6:26

saying. don't deport this person,

6:28

he has a protected status,

6:31

he can't be removed. So

6:33

he spent his first eight years in

6:35

the US without a visa, and then

6:37

he had this trouble in 2019, and

6:40

his lawyers managed to fight to

6:42

get him protected status, which

6:44

means that after that point

6:46

he couldn't be deported. So

6:48

basically since then, he'd been

6:50

living just a normal life

6:52

on the East Coast with his

6:55

family. But then... Last month

6:57

he was accused of

6:59

being a gang member

7:01

and he was deported.

7:04

Exactly. Donald Trump

7:06

has made immigration

7:09

central to his

7:11

presidency of course and

7:14

he's promised to carry

7:16

out mass deportations. Abrego

7:19

Garcia was one person

7:22

caught up in this

7:24

huge wave. How many people

7:27

have been deported so far? You

7:29

know, there's a little bit of

7:31

lag between when deportations

7:33

happen and when we have the data

7:36

for it. A colleague of mine, Will

7:38

Craft, and I at the Guardian, we

7:40

reported a couple weeks ago

7:42

that in the first month of

7:45

the administration, we saw sort of

7:47

this historic high of arrests, but

7:49

we didn't necessarily match that

7:51

up with how many people

7:53

were removed from the US.

7:56

But early numbers indicate it's

7:58

not dramatically different. what was

8:00

happening under the Biden administration. And

8:03

I think a part of that

8:05

is that basically the US-Mexico border

8:07

is really quiet at the moment.

8:10

And so while the Biden administration

8:12

was sort of quickly sending back

8:14

lots of people arriving at the

8:17

southern border, right now the border

8:19

is pretty quiet. And so... even

8:22

though the actual numbers have not

8:24

shifted that much, there is just

8:26

much more enforcement within the interior

8:29

of the US. That's really interesting.

8:31

So people have been scared off

8:33

it seems from coming to the

8:36

border to cross into the states

8:38

because of the amount Trump has

8:40

talked about policing the border, but

8:43

the number of people being deported

8:45

is about the same as under

8:48

Biden because more people who are...

8:50

living in the states now are

8:52

being picked up and sent away.

8:55

Right, and people are not only

8:57

scared off from the southern border,

8:59

but many of the pathways that

9:02

were open to people arriving at

9:04

the southern border, like applying for

9:07

asylum at the southern border, have

9:09

essentially been shut down or suspended.

9:11

And so there's not really ways

9:14

for people to come in. Donald

9:16

Trump has sent a bunch of

9:18

like military down to the southern

9:21

border. And so while that is

9:23

quiet, he's also ramped up enforcement

9:26

in the interior, which means that

9:28

people like Abrego Garcia, people who

9:30

have been waiting for years and

9:33

years to have their case for

9:35

asylum or permanent legal status be

9:37

heard in court in a very

9:40

backlogged court system, people who for

9:42

years have been complying with requirements

9:44

to check in with immigration officials

9:47

on a yearly or monthly basis,

9:49

all of these people. are suddenly

9:52

kind of under threat for deportation.

9:54

And this is going to sound

9:56

like an obvious question, but why

9:59

is Trump so keen to deport

10:01

people? What kinds of reasons is

10:03

he giving for wanting to? make

10:06

these mass deportations? Donald Trump and

10:08

his administration have really been pushing

10:11

this narrative that they are trying

10:13

to deport criminals, and they often

10:15

equate most or all immigrants with

10:18

criminality, implying falsely that immigrants are

10:20

associated with greater levels of crime.

10:22

We actually know that immigrants are

10:25

less than US citizens in general.

10:27

But what we found in our

10:30

reporting, looking at some of the

10:32

data that we have from ICE,

10:34

as well as interviews with people

10:37

all over the US, who either

10:39

have been arrested or who are

10:41

now suddenly facing deportation after living

10:44

pretty normal lives for years in

10:46

the US, what we found is

10:48

like, these are not criminals. They

10:51

don't have a criminal record. Or

10:53

if they do, it's something really

10:56

small, like, you know, a... speeding

10:58

ticket or something you wouldn't really

11:00

associate with the level of criminality

11:03

that you'd expect from a gang

11:05

member. And isn't the administration

11:07

using military aircraft to deport

11:09

people? Yeah, I think this

11:12

is a big part of

11:14

the administration's rhetorical argument that

11:16

they're focusing on criminals is

11:18

by showing people in handcuffs

11:20

surrounded by several ICE agents

11:23

in bulletproof vests. You know,

11:25

it's not that military... planes

11:27

were never used for deportations

11:29

before, but you know they're

11:31

just a lot more expensive

11:34

than commercial flights to take

11:36

people away. And yet the

11:38

government has sort of doubled

11:40

down on its use of

11:42

these planes because it does

11:44

seem to fit this narrative

11:47

that they're really focusing on

11:49

criminals and these gangs that

11:51

they have declared to be

11:53

foreign terrorist organizations. Which countries

11:55

are people being sent to?

11:58

So Abrigo Garcia was part

12:00

of this group that was

12:02

more than 275 men. who

12:04

were deported to El Salvador

12:06

and detained in Secote, which

12:09

is this mega prison. Many

12:11

of the people who were

12:13

deported in that batch were

12:15

Venezuelan nationals and they were

12:17

taken under the guise that

12:19

they were members of Trinidad

12:22

Agua, which is a Venezuelan

12:24

gang. Donald Trump used his

12:26

sort of arcane authority under

12:28

the Alien enemies act. What's

12:30

the alien enemies act? Right,

12:33

so the Alien Enemies Act

12:35

is this provision that allows

12:37

the executive special authority in

12:39

the name of protecting national

12:41

security, and they use this

12:44

wartime Alien Enemies Act of

12:46

1798 against this gang, and

12:48

in order to target and

12:50

deport Venezuelan nationals in the

12:52

US, some of whom have

12:54

no criminal histories. And it's

12:57

really exceptional. because it was

12:59

most recently and famously used

13:01

to arrest tens and thousands

13:03

of people, mostly of Japanese,

13:05

German, and Italian ancestry during

13:08

the Second World War, and

13:10

it played a role in

13:12

the mass removal and incarceration

13:14

of Japanese Americans during that

13:16

war. Okay, so am I

13:19

understanding it correctly that by

13:21

using this act instead of

13:23

a different piece of legislation,

13:25

It basically allows the US

13:27

government to deport people on

13:29

mass because they can argue

13:32

that this entire group of

13:34

people is a threat to

13:36

our state. Yeah, you're understanding

13:38

that correctly. That is generally

13:40

the idea that the government

13:43

is saying because they have

13:45

the authority under this law

13:47

from, you know, the 1700s,

13:49

they can target this whole

13:51

group of people that they

13:54

have declared threats to national

13:56

security. Abrega

14:06

Garcia is in prison in

14:08

El Salvador now and it's

14:10

not just any jail it's

14:12

a mega prison called Secart

14:14

that was built a few

14:16

years ago specifically to hold

14:18

alleged gang members. What is

14:21

it like there? What kinds

14:23

of conditions will he be

14:25

being held in? This was

14:27

a prison that was the

14:29

crown jewel of the Salvadoran

14:31

president's policy of these mass

14:33

arrests. and removal of people

14:35

accused of being gang members.

14:38

So El Salvador's president, Naid

14:40

Bokelle, he really came into

14:42

power on the promise that

14:44

he would make El Salvador

14:46

safer. This was a country

14:48

that was really been plagued

14:50

by horrific violence for years,

14:53

and so he came in

14:55

with this plan that he

14:57

would crack down on gang

14:59

violence. And his way of

15:01

doing that was declaring a

15:03

state of exemption. where it

15:05

allowed the police and military

15:07

to arrest people on suspicion

15:10

of gang affiliation without any

15:12

evidence, put these people in

15:14

mega prisons, like Sikkot, which

15:16

can hold, I think, about

15:18

40,000 people, Bukhale ordered a

15:20

communication blackout between the incarcerated

15:22

people and people outside the

15:24

prison. So basically once... You

15:27

know your family member or

15:29

loved one is inside. They're

15:31

gone forever. They are no

15:33

longer part of the community

15:35

really or of the country

15:37

People are locked in their

15:39

cells for the majority of

15:41

the time and only allowed

15:44

out for 30 minutes a

15:46

day Of those who have

15:48

been able to speak out

15:50

some have described seeing things

15:52

like people die in the

15:54

cells with them and their

15:56

bodies are left there for

15:58

extended periods of time There's

16:01

no phone calls, no mail

16:03

from love. ones, no visits,

16:05

and so, you know, there's

16:07

really no way for people

16:09

on the outside to confirm

16:11

whether their loved ones are

16:13

living or dead. Coming up,

16:15

will a brego Garcia come

16:18

back to the US? Cybersecurity

16:27

is the top concern for

16:29

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16:36

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16:40

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16:43

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16:45

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16:47

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16:51

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16:54

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16:56

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16:58

visit vanta.com/today in focus to

17:00

learn more. The Maryland father

17:03

mistakenly sent to prison in

17:05

his native El Salvador is

17:07

suing the US Secretary of

17:09

Homeland Security. Momby, around the

17:11

start of this month, Abrego

17:14

Garcia's case started to get

17:16

a lot of publicity because

17:18

his family filed a lawsuit

17:20

against the Trump administration challenging

17:22

the legality of his deportation

17:25

and denying that he was

17:27

involved in any sort of

17:29

criminal gang. How was the

17:31

Trump administration responded? The government

17:33

told the courts. that although

17:36

ICE was aware that Abrego

17:38

Garcia was protected from removal

17:40

to El Salvador, he was

17:42

removed due to an administrative

17:45

error. So they told the

17:47

court they basically made a

17:49

mistake and they knew that

17:51

a judge had ordered the

17:53

government to not remove him.

17:56

However, once this case came

17:58

to be once Abrego Garcia's

18:00

family and lawyers said, well,

18:02

bring him back, the government

18:04

has continued at least rhetorically

18:07

to double down. on characterizing

18:09

him as a terrorist, as

18:11

a gang member. Well, first

18:13

of all, the error that

18:15

you are referring to was

18:18

a clerical error. It was

18:20

an administrative error. The administration

18:22

maintains the position that this

18:24

individual who was deported to

18:27

El Salvador and will not

18:29

be returning to our country

18:31

was a member of the

18:33

brutal and vicious MS-13 gang.

18:35

Saying that he is dangerous

18:38

and he should not be

18:40

returned. of Nativity and citizenship.

18:42

He is an illegal alien

18:44

in the United States. Stephen

18:46

Miller, who is really Donald

18:49

Trump's biggest advisor on immigration,

18:51

has repeatedly accused Abrego Garcia

18:53

of being a gang member.

18:55

The administration has doubled down

18:57

on this narrative that he

19:00

is dangerous and that he

19:02

should not be returned to

19:04

the United States. This so-called

19:06

administration error has destroyed my

19:08

family's happiness. My children's

19:11

innocence. So the Trump administration

19:13

is doubling down on his

19:15

deportation regardless of the fact

19:17

that they've admitted it was

19:19

an error that they have

19:21

no legal basis to deport

19:23

him. So how is that

19:25

being challenged? Surely a judge

19:27

can compel them to make

19:30

it right to bring him

19:32

back to the US. Yeah,

19:34

and a judge did compel

19:36

them to bring him back

19:38

to bring him back to

19:40

the US. Yeah, and a

19:42

judge did compel them to

19:44

bring him back. Let's get

19:46

into some breaking news that

19:48

is happening right now. A

19:50

federal judge in Maryland has

19:52

just ordered that a man

19:54

who was here in the

19:56

United States, who was an

19:59

undocumented migrant, should be sent

20:01

back to the United States

20:03

after he... And then the

20:05

administration challenged that and then

20:07

it went to the Supreme

20:09

Court. In a unanimous ruling,

20:11

the Supreme Court's ordered the

20:13

Trump... administration to facilitate the

20:15

return of Kilmer, Abrego Garcia,

20:17

to the United States. And

20:19

the Supreme Court said that

20:21

the administration needs to facilitate

20:23

Abrego Garcia's return to the

20:25

U.S. However, during the weekend,

20:28

the administration came back and

20:30

said now that he is

20:32

in El Salvador, it's not

20:34

in their jurisdiction. It's not

20:36

their problem anymore, They are

20:38

saying, yeah, it was a

20:40

mistake, but now that we've

20:42

made the mistake and he's

20:44

gone, he's no longer on

20:46

US soil, we can't really

20:48

do anything. And, you know,

20:50

there are some really grave

20:52

consequences of this sort of

20:54

logic because now this could

20:57

open the door for the

20:59

government to make similar arguments.

21:01

It's a really slippery slope,

21:03

right? Justice Sonia Sotomayor in

21:05

a concurring argument. in the

21:07

ruling ordering the government to

21:09

facilitate Abrego Garcia's return. She

21:11

wrote, the government argument implies

21:13

that it can deport and

21:15

incarcerate any person, including U.S.

21:17

citizens, without legal consequence, so

21:19

long as it does so

21:21

before a court can intervene.

21:24

Of course, Donald Trump has

21:26

already talked about not only

21:28

sending immigrants but also U.S.

21:30

citizens to El Salvadoran. and

21:32

to these prisons. And yeah,

21:34

I guess what Justice Sotomayor

21:36

and what other legal scholars

21:38

are really worried. And yeah,

21:40

I guess what Justice Sotomayor

21:42

and what other legal scholars

21:44

are really worried about is

21:46

the Trump administration is basically

21:48

saying they can do whatever

21:50

and if they've already done

21:53

it before a judge says

21:55

you can't do that, that's

21:57

fine. If they've already kidnapped

21:59

someone and sent them out

22:01

of country, now they're out

22:03

of the country, now they're

22:05

not in U.S. jurisdiction. Too

22:07

late. How unprecedented is it

22:09

for a US president to

22:11

bypass the Supreme Court as

22:13

Trump is doing in this

22:15

case? I would say this

22:17

situation is fairly unprecedented. Donald

22:19

Trump does himself have a

22:22

track record of not really

22:24

respecting a separation of powers,

22:26

not really liking it when

22:28

the courts or... Congress goes

22:30

against what he wants to

22:32

do. But in this case,

22:34

the Supreme Court, they did

22:36

say that the government needs

22:38

to facilitate this man's return.

22:40

And instead of doing that,

22:42

the Trump administration has looked

22:44

for a loophole, saying that

22:46

it's out of their hands.

22:49

And in the days since

22:51

that ruling, they have done

22:53

everything, even if they're not

22:55

lying in the court of

22:57

law, Donald Trump and his

22:59

advisors have... tried to double

23:01

down on this narrative that

23:03

Abrego Garcia somehow is a

23:05

gang member, is a terrorist,

23:07

despite in the court filing

23:09

saying that they've made an

23:11

error. So in the six

23:13

years that Nai Bukale has

23:15

been the president of El

23:18

Salvador, as you say, reading

23:20

El Salvador of the gangs

23:22

of the gangs, has been...

23:24

his central mission. So I

23:26

wonder how he feels about

23:28

Trump's policy of these mass

23:30

deportations. Well thank you very

23:32

much. It's an honor to

23:34

have a friend of mine

23:36

because we went through this

23:38

together. So I knew him

23:40

as a very young man,

23:42

now he's just a young

23:44

man. He visited the White

23:47

House on Monday. What did

23:49

he have to say about

23:51

the possibility of returning? Abrego

23:53

Garcia and anybody else I

23:55

guess who's been found to

23:57

be part of this administrative

23:59

error. to the states. I

24:01

think a lot of people

24:03

were watching to see what

24:05

the two leaders would discuss

24:07

when it came to Abbego

24:09

Garcia's case. Let's hear the

24:11

question from this very low-rated

24:14

anchor and she'd be... Do

24:16

you plan to ask President

24:18

Bokele to help return the

24:20

man who your administration says

24:22

was mistakenly deported? And what

24:24

we saw was Bokele explicitly

24:26

said he does not plan

24:28

to release Abbego Garcia. either

24:30

to the US or within

24:32

El Salvador. It's like, I

24:34

mean, the question is preposterous.

24:36

How can I just model

24:38

a terrorist to the United

24:40

States? I don't have the

24:43

power to return him to

24:45

the United States. But there

24:47

is no evidence that he's

24:49

a terrorist, just to be

24:51

clear. Yeah, there's no evidence

24:53

he's a terrorist and moreover

24:55

he doesn't have any criminal

24:57

convictions. It's completely dystopian. to

24:59

realize that this is what's

25:01

happening, people being deported without

25:03

due process, without evidence having

25:05

to be presented, where do

25:07

you see this going next?

25:09

Right, so many people are

25:12

being deported without due process,

25:14

and it's not just Abrego

25:16

Garcia, it's not just the

25:18

275 plus men who were

25:20

deported to El Salvador, right?

25:22

This is the administration's approach

25:24

to how it is treating...

25:26

all sorts of immigrants, including

25:28

students who may have participated

25:30

in pro-Palestinian protests, including just

25:32

regular people who are at

25:34

the wrong place at the

25:36

wrong time, people who are

25:39

seeking asylum and have just

25:41

been living law-abiding lives while

25:43

they're wait. There are so

25:45

many lawsuits to challenge the

25:47

government's actions, and we can

25:49

see that in the courts,

25:51

some of these cases are

25:53

really prevailing. But I think

25:55

part of the concern is

25:57

that the government is moving

25:59

so fast. It is changing

26:01

so many... immigration policies, so

26:03

many, you know, all policies,

26:05

educational, environmental, it's doing so

26:08

much so quickly that it's

26:10

sort of difficult for the

26:12

rest of the system to

26:14

keep up. And in the

26:16

meantime, you know, it's putting

26:18

a lot of people in

26:20

very vulnerable situations. Momby, thank

26:22

you very much. That

26:30

was Mom V Singh. You

26:32

can read her work at

26:34

the guardian.com. And if you

26:37

like what you've heard today,

26:39

or if you've got any

26:41

comments on it, please leave

26:44

us a review on Spotify

26:46

or Apple podcasts. We love

26:48

hearing from you and it

26:51

helps other people find us

26:53

as well. That's it for

26:55

today. I'm Hannah Moore. This

26:58

episode was produced by Alex

27:00

Atak and sound designed by

27:02

Joel Cox. The executive producer

27:05

was Hummer Helili. We'll be

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