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Welcome to the Transforming Trauma

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Podcast. Transforming Trauma is presented

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by the Complex Trauma Training

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0:13

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Training Center.com and

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secure your spot in

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the space program. It's time to

1:47

care for you. Best known for

1:49

the 2014 Gamergate scandal where women

1:52

in the game industry were targeted

1:54

with extreme harassment. Wu ran for

1:56

Congress and is the host of

1:59

Dalcast. Please enjoy this. conversation with

2:01

Brianna Wu. All right, I am sitting

2:03

here with Brianna Wu. Welcome to Transforming

2:05

Trauma. It's so exciting to be here,

2:07

you know. I get a lot of

2:10

media requests. I've never gotten one specifically

2:12

about trauma before, so it's a big

2:14

day for me. It's a big day

2:16

for us. We're so excited you're here.

2:19

Oh my goodness. Thank you for taking

2:21

the time. So, Brianna, I'm gonna just

2:23

dive right in and asking you what

2:25

would you like our listeners to get

2:27

during our time together today. Gosh, as

2:30

uncomfortable as it is to think that

2:32

my life could inspire anyone except to

2:34

not make certain decisions. I don't know.

2:36

I hope that well stuff that I'm

2:38

saying will connect and be useful to

2:41

people. Maybe if they have a trans

2:43

child, they will know they can end

2:45

up relatively normal. Or if you're trans

2:47

yourself, you can know there's a good

2:50

life waiting for you out there if

2:52

you'll deal with some tough stuff. So

2:54

that would be my hope. I love

2:56

it. Awesome. That's a beautiful intention. So

2:58

can we start, I know you said,

3:01

you get lots of media requests and

3:03

nothing usually around trauma. And so I'm

3:05

wondering, can you tell us just a

3:07

little bit about you, your background, where

3:09

you are in the world? the good

3:12

stuff. Oh boy, I've had a really

3:14

interesting career. Most people started off knowing

3:16

me for Game Regate, which was a

3:18

scandal in the game industry about 10

3:21

years ago. It was kind of the

3:23

start of this playbook we see with

3:25

basically hunting people online when they have

3:27

opinions you don't like and sending them

3:29

death threats, rape threats, going through everything

3:32

they've ever said, trying to destroy them,

3:34

all that great stuff that is a

3:36

fantastic political development. I ran for Congress.

3:38

That turned out pretty well. You know,

3:40

I've been a political operative for years.

3:43

I've been relatively involved in the Israel-Palestine

3:45

discourse. And yeah, I came out finally

3:47

after 20 years publicly. Trans a few

3:49

months ago. It's never been, I've like

3:52

thought people couldn't figure out it was

3:54

trans sometimes. It was that I didn't

3:56

want it to be the focus of

3:58

what people were thinking. about with my

4:00

work. I just wanted to go on

4:03

and blend and have a normal life

4:05

as best as I could. But I

4:07

really came to the conclusion that if

4:09

we didn't change direction on some

4:11

things, we're going to lose everything.

4:13

So that's kind of why I've been

4:16

a bit more vocal about that. Okay,

4:18

amazing. Yeah, like you named, you've got,

4:20

you've got your hand in a lot

4:23

of different, I don't know, what's the

4:25

saying. Pots? I don't know what you're...

4:27

I don't know what you're... with Gamergate

4:29

and also this piece around

4:32

being trans but also not wanting

4:34

that necessarily to be the focus

4:36

and recently understanding

4:38

that it's helpful to have even more

4:40

discourse around that. That's what from my

4:42

point of view there's some people that

4:44

would disagree. Well I'm on the camp

4:46

of agreeing so I'm going to talk

4:49

about the things. Yeah so can you

4:51

tell us a little bit about just

4:53

like your history of like how because

4:55

you named trauma is a part of

4:57

your history. So what part of that

4:59

feels relevant for you to talk about

5:01

today? Well, I guess, you know, I

5:03

think it really starts where most

5:05

queer stories start, which is when

5:08

I realize something was really, really wrong

5:10

with me. You know, I only get

5:12

vague memories of it, but I have

5:14

no memory of ever not desperately wanting to

5:16

be a girl when I was much

5:18

younger. I was literally... all I

5:20

could ever think about. And yeah,

5:23

I get these memories of like

5:25

them separating us by gender and

5:27

kindergarten and just being overwhelmed with

5:29

shame about that, or you're wanting

5:31

to play clapping games with the

5:34

girls in my class, wanting my

5:36

hair to be long and pretty,

5:38

and it was really incredibly difficult.

5:40

Yeah, I was rereading 984 recently,

5:43

and there's there's a scene

5:45

where the protagonist gets taken

5:47

to room 101 for torture. And

5:49

Orwell talks about the way you really

5:51

break a spirit in someone is you

5:54

make them decide to kill what they

5:56

really truly love. And he's sitting there

5:58

with the love of his... He's saying,

6:00

tear Julius face off, kill her,

6:02

break her body, I don't care,

6:04

just save me. This is very

6:07

much what a trans childhood is

6:09

like, because there's a part of

6:11

you that feels so real and

6:13

important to you, and it's just

6:15

begging to be nourished. And you

6:17

have to let those parts die

6:19

to survive. And it sends so

6:21

many of us off in these

6:23

wildly painful directions to take decades

6:25

to get over and I can

6:27

barely touch it today. Like it's

6:30

really been extremely difficult. So I

6:32

think that's where my story kind

6:34

of starts. And you know, regardless

6:36

of what anyone's experience is, I

6:38

hope that everyone can have an

6:40

open heart, this piece that you

6:42

just said. Like there's parts of

6:44

us that a lot of us

6:46

as kids felt like we had

6:48

to have die in order to

6:51

survive. I mean that is a

6:53

really powerful statement and I know

6:55

a lot of people are going

6:57

to resonate with that. So thank

6:59

you for sharing that. So you

7:01

know why did you say yes

7:03

to doing this interview? I mean

7:05

that's honestly where my brain goes

7:07

because what about it? You know

7:09

the idea of transforming trauma is

7:12

resonant for you. Well, it's not

7:14

that I think I have any

7:16

illusions that I've mastered anything. What

7:18

I am increasingly aware of is

7:20

that there is a lack of

7:22

public information about what the cost

7:24

is of being trans. of what

7:26

that pathology looks like, even as

7:28

we're recording this, I'm on about

7:30

four hours of sleep because last

7:32

night JK Rowling decided to go

7:35

after me personally on Twitter, which

7:37

made my phone blow up all

7:39

night and I got a ton

7:41

of harassment and other threats, which

7:43

is just part of my life.

7:45

And I read a lot of

7:47

these comments from people that just

7:49

frankly want trans women like me

7:51

to stop existing. And I think

7:53

there's... I think there's a real

7:56

lack of empathy from the public

7:58

about what it's like for people

8:00

like me or what we really

8:02

want. Well, thank you for sharing

8:04

that. And I know earlier I said

8:06

it's not your responsibility to

8:09

educate me or anyone else.

8:11

And also you kind of

8:13

stepped into that. You said,

8:15

well, I'm a public figure

8:17

and you're choosing that. Yes.

8:19

And I appreciate that. Yeah. I

8:22

really wonder if it's... a mistake

8:24

I made being a public figure. I

8:26

mean, it certainly has not made me

8:28

happier or made my life easier. I

8:31

find it so interesting, like you look

8:33

at these studies and these kids today,

8:35

like being a YouTube or celebrity is

8:37

the thing they want most. And I

8:40

remember, you know, 10, 15 years ago,

8:42

where no one knew who I was.

8:44

My life was so much better in

8:46

so many ways. I don't know, but

8:48

it's kind of like you can't unring

8:51

that bell, that egg is not

8:53

getting unscrambled, and I

8:55

think I just have to make the most

8:57

of my choices, if that makes sense.

8:59

Yeah. That especially lands for me

9:02

in this model, the norm model

9:04

that I work with, and that

9:06

many in our community are trained in,

9:08

agency is a huge, you know, piece

9:10

of the work, the therapeutic work, and

9:13

so I appreciate you naming, you can't

9:15

unring that bell. I just have to

9:17

make the most of my choices and

9:20

moving forward. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So

9:22

one thing I noticed because I did,

9:24

you know, this morning I got up

9:27

and I checked your Twitter, your X

9:29

again, and I did notice the the

9:31

piece that JK rolling. And so. What

9:34

did you think of my response? I

9:36

thought I handled it pretty skillfully. I

9:38

thought it was very well spoken

9:41

and reasonable. And I hope if

9:43

anyone is curious and goes and

9:45

checks out that thread can see

9:47

you're really wanting to open up

9:49

civil discourse. It's so important. I

9:51

feel like everything's so polarized these

9:53

days and people can't have a

9:55

different opinion, like you said, without

9:57

being attacked. So I really appreciated

9:59

the... way you approached it and I'm

10:01

curious what yeah what you're noticing in

10:04

this moment. Well I mean the thing

10:06

is a JK rallying after Game Regate

10:08

I certainly understand what it's like to

10:11

have thousands of people sending death threats

10:13

to my door and harassing me and

10:15

I've been horrified. by the response of

10:18

trans Twitter towards her. And please don't

10:20

get me wrong. I do not like

10:22

many of her opinions. I think she's

10:25

become increasingly radicalized as many people on

10:27

the internet happen. But at the same

10:29

time, the answer to that is not

10:32

to tell someone you're going to kill

10:34

them, rape them, murder them, which is

10:36

routine from my community now, unfortunately. So

10:38

it's like, I really, when I think

10:41

through the lessons I learned from Gameer

10:43

Gate, which was... in many ways having

10:45

to fight becoming the thing that was

10:48

attacking me and eventually stepping away from

10:50

that brink. I can see that happening

10:52

to her and I can, I guess

10:55

it's like I have empathy for where

10:57

she is right now and I would

10:59

hope that the same with a lot

11:02

of, you know, these gender critical or

11:04

turf people in the UK, it's not

11:06

like I'm not in my 40s and

11:09

I don't understand the collection of indignities.

11:11

you get as a woman is you

11:13

get older. Like I very much understand

11:16

this. It's not like I haven't had

11:18

men belittle me in my career consistently

11:20

over the last 20 years or I

11:23

don't, you know, understand how your value

11:25

to society changes as you age. It's

11:27

not like I don't understand having to

11:30

fight for every piece you get. So

11:32

it's so frustrating because I can see

11:34

the turf gender critical point of view

11:36

and there's validity in that which I've

11:39

tried to speak out against. But it

11:41

just feels like you're in the middle

11:43

of a firestorm because you've got one

11:46

side, trans people are in pain, and

11:48

we're just looking for a society that

11:50

will give us health care and dignity.

11:53

And then on the other, you've got

11:55

this justifiable feminist rage on the other

11:57

with reasonable questions about policy towards children.

12:00

or what access to women's spaces looks

12:02

like. And there's an adult discussion

12:04

we need to have that we're

12:06

not having. But the problem is

12:08

that's not interested in a conversation.

12:10

It's increasingly interested in dehumanizing

12:12

people. And I actually think

12:14

like my unique experience has

12:17

really positioned me to be

12:19

a needed voice for moderation

12:21

on this. It's something I

12:23

feel a responsibility to do. Yeah,

12:25

again, I just want to name, I feel

12:28

really appreciative of the work you're doing, the

12:30

nuance that you're able to hold. And

12:32

these conversations that you're really inviting,

12:35

and you know, people are going to

12:37

do what they do, and not always

12:39

are willing to come to the table

12:41

in a reasonable way, but I really

12:43

appreciate how you're approaching those conversations and

12:46

opening it up. Or least trying to,

12:48

what the skills I have. Doing the

12:50

best you can. Yeah, so I'm wondering

12:52

in this moment, again, I'm feeling a

12:54

little bit more curiosity just about you

12:57

personally, and I'm wondering if you could

12:59

talk a little bit more about, you

13:01

know, when you've been in those deep

13:03

trenches, what that's been like for you

13:05

to emerge. I want to be honest

13:07

and say it's really taking a toll

13:10

on me. You know, I transitioned over

13:12

20 years ago and You know, there's

13:14

so much trauma that goes along

13:16

with that. And I moved on as

13:19

best as I can. You know, I've

13:21

been monogamously married to a man for

13:23

his 16, almost 17 years. I've had

13:25

a good career. I've got a house. I've

13:27

got, you know, I have a

13:29

good life for myself. But I

13:32

think what is increasingly taking a

13:34

toll is having thousands of people

13:36

a day show up to my

13:38

door. knocking and saying, you're a

13:40

man, you're free, you're degenerate, you're

13:42

cross-stress, you're invading women's faces. And

13:44

it's, you know, I'm an adult

13:46

and I'm fairly good at tuning

13:48

this stuff out. I'm very experienced

13:51

getting death threats, for instance, but

13:53

it's just the volume of it

13:55

and in reading it consistently. I really

13:57

worry it's changing the way I seemless.

13:59

if that makes sense. And I'm just

14:02

really hoping folks can hear that, that

14:04

there's a toll, there's a cost. There

14:06

is. As you show up in these

14:08

ways and all the advocacy and all

14:10

the work that you do, it's wearing

14:12

down on people and many people. Well,

14:15

you get it from both sides. Like

14:17

it's not like trans people are not

14:19

very angry at me for trying to

14:21

chart a course more down the middle.

14:23

Right, I get called a trader, I

14:26

get stuff I'm taking out of context,

14:28

I'll give you a very specific example.

14:30

Look, I am in my 40s and

14:32

I... have enough friends with children to

14:34

understand that if you're talking about someone's

14:36

children in public school, this is something

14:39

you need to tread very likely. It's

14:41

a lot more complicated than I thought

14:43

when I was 20 years old. And

14:45

there's a bill in California that basically

14:47

says if a school is socially transitioning

14:50

children, the parents need to know about

14:52

this. You don't need to do it

14:54

behind their back. And I really thought

14:56

about this and I'm like, well, on

14:58

one hand, I know what it's like

15:00

to be a... closeted child terrified that

15:03

my parents are going to find out

15:05

about me because I know they'll disown

15:07

me and they did. But on the

15:09

other, it's like, I don't think it's

15:11

good public policy to have our public

15:14

school system basically facilitating a gender change

15:16

and keeping parents in the dark. That's

15:18

not a way for trans people to

15:20

build trust. And if you believe as

15:22

I do that those children need health

15:24

care, it's not getting them the health

15:27

that they need. So, you know, I

15:29

came out in favor of this bill.

15:31

And it's just been swear to God

15:33

war with the trans community day in

15:35

and day out about that. And it's

15:38

very frustrating because there's very little willingness

15:40

to see any new ones there, if

15:42

that makes sense. Totally makes sense. And

15:44

I mean, something was coming up for

15:46

me. I had heard about that bill

15:48

and I kind of was curious too

15:51

about like, like, like, like, like, Interesting,

15:53

what are the implications? What does this

15:55

look like down the road? And I

15:57

don't know, there's something that came up

15:59

for me. again, this is not my

16:02

experience. You know, I'm not a trans

16:04

person, I'm not, so I want to

16:06

be careful, I want to tread lightly.

16:08

And also, there's part of me

16:10

that's like, if we do that

16:12

and we communicate to a child,

16:14

yes, this is a secret. Your

16:16

parents shouldn't know, like, there's something

16:18

there that's missing. And I can

16:20

absolutely see the points that you're

16:23

making. And I really, I really

16:25

appreciate your willingness to even talk

16:27

about that. that it kind of

16:29

feels like, oh, who can see,

16:31

who can see any of the

16:33

work that I'm doing? That's right.

16:35

If you're being attacked from both

16:37

sides. That's right. It does get

16:39

you attacked from literally everyone

16:41

here. So that's very, it's

16:43

exhausting. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for naming

16:46

that. So you've been doing this work,

16:48

you've transitioned, you said, over 20 years

16:50

ago or around? I did. I was

16:52

the first transwoman ever, transition at the

16:54

University of Mississippi, which, let me tell

16:56

you, that was an adventure. We didn't even,

16:58

yeah, we haven't even talked about that, growing

17:01

up in the deep south. I did. And

17:03

what that was like for you, you also

17:05

mentioned, your family had disowned me. Yeah. For

17:07

me and we liked garbage. It was actually

17:09

two families, because I was adopted

17:11

I was adopted. So the first

17:13

thing you learn in life is

17:15

that your biological family didn't love

17:17

you enough to keep you and then

17:19

you know you're different and you

17:22

keep the secret your all life

17:24

because you're terrified your parents

17:26

are going to love you. Just throw

17:28

you away and say to your brother

17:31

and sister it's really been very

17:33

lovely. I just want to give a

17:35

moment for that to land and you

17:37

really hope that people are having

17:39

their hearts open in this moment

17:41

for the work that you do and for

17:44

what you've been through. Yeah. So I just want

17:46

to have a real moment here with you

17:48

and I, and we can edit anything out

17:50

here, but I just want to ask

17:52

you a real question. How are you

17:54

in this moment? I just want to

17:57

make sure I'm not taking you anywhere

17:59

that doesn't feel... It's not like I

18:01

don't feel this all the time.

18:03

I'm sure. Yeah. Especially in the

18:05

holidays, Christmas isn't just a few

18:07

days, and it hurts. Absolutely. I

18:09

mean, I didn't, I wish people

18:11

could understand. I didn't ask to

18:13

be born this way. It was,

18:16

you know, I did a podcast

18:18

with Andrew Sullivan a few days

18:20

ago, and we were talking for

18:22

him as a gay man. Well,

18:24

it was like growing up, and

18:26

yeah, he talks about... like trying

18:28

to hide his attraction to other

18:30

boys. And it's like I had

18:32

all of that on top of

18:34

learning to be a girl on

18:37

top of that. It's like there's

18:39

this this cost that you can't

18:41

act like yourself. So the first

18:43

thing you do learn to do

18:45

is to play a series of

18:47

parts from some stereotypes about gender

18:49

that don't really fit you very

18:51

well. And like it's not normal

18:53

to think about your childhood as

18:55

like a part you played in

18:58

a play, like a fake character.

19:00

And you know, I didn't understand

19:02

who I was until I transitioned.

19:04

So it's just, I don't know,

19:06

I just, I wish my family

19:08

could have, I know they understood

19:10

the pain that I was in

19:12

and I know, like I told

19:14

them how I felt many times.

19:16

And they just... They couldn't acknowledge

19:19

what I was or get me

19:21

help, which is, you know, it's

19:23

very painful. There's part of me,

19:25

and I don't know if this

19:27

is the right question to ask

19:29

or even a good question. What

19:31

would a help have looked like

19:33

for you? What would you have

19:35

wanted? I mean, just letting me

19:37

act in a way that would

19:39

have felt normal would have been

19:42

just so helpful. Like, I remember

19:44

this time, I think I was

19:46

like six or seven. I was

19:48

in great mood. And I'm walking

19:50

through the house and I'm talking

19:52

to mom and I make some

19:54

hand gesture like this talking to

19:56

her. It's just like a normal,

19:58

I'm sure like... very gay to

20:00

her and she just looks at

20:03

me and snaps and goes, don't

20:05

do that. And I remember in

20:07

this moment thinking, oh no, I

20:09

let my manner of some slip,

20:11

my mom's gonna know what I

20:14

want. And it's actually a really

20:16

dangerous lesson for a child to

20:18

get the feeling joy around

20:20

your parents puts you at risk.

20:23

So, you know, you learn to hide

20:25

all of this and, you know, obviously

20:27

it's hard to not, you know. The

20:29

amount of plastic surgery I've had to

20:32

have to even pass as barely as

20:34

I do? Like, that's because I didn't

20:36

have testosterone blockers or estrogen at a

20:38

young age. I mean, that would have

20:41

helped me even just therapy. To have

20:43

someone to talk to, like, I must

20:45

have sat there a thousand times and

20:47

wondered, like, do other people feel this

20:50

way? Did they just hide it better

20:52

than I do? Like, do they not

20:54

feel like their bodies are broken and

20:57

weird all the time? I just felt

20:59

so much loneliness, I can't even

21:01

communicate it to you, which is

21:03

why I just shut down. And

21:05

I'm appreciating in this moment

21:07

that you are sharing, you're

21:09

not shutting down, but you're

21:11

showing really vulnerability and I

21:14

appreciate your willingness to go

21:16

there. That experience that you

21:18

illustrated this moment of your mother

21:20

snapping and you getting clear on, oh,

21:22

I can't let my true self slip.

21:24

I can't like be authentically me because

21:27

then she'll know and that and this

21:29

isn't a safe space. That's right. And

21:31

so I mean that's landing for me like

21:33

for any parent regardless because we may

21:35

or may not know. I mean I

21:37

have children and I may or may

21:39

not know where you know but hopefully

21:41

just creating space for them to be

21:44

their authentic selves. Is that what I'm

21:46

hearing? Yeah. Just the safety to to

21:48

show up in whatever authentic way. It's not

21:50

like I didn't tell them how I felt

21:52

a thousand times. I remember being very young

21:54

and telling my mom I was worried I

21:56

was going to get help because I wanted to

21:59

be a girl. so much and she

22:01

just like that's so obvious to

22:03

me as an adult like my

22:05

dad's a surgeon they know what

22:08

this is and the fact that

22:10

they just chose to ignore that

22:12

it's it's very difficult. So in

22:14

the work that you've done in

22:17

all these different spaces I'm curious

22:19

what has because you've named there's

22:21

a cost what has helped you

22:23

to continue forward? I really don't

22:26

have any insight on that. I

22:28

think there's something about me that

22:30

just, yeah, I've actually, I've thought

22:32

about this a lot lately. If

22:34

sometimes the battles I choose to

22:37

fight are me repeating these maladaptive

22:39

strategies I had with my parents

22:41

where I'm so used to not

22:43

being loved that I'm willing to

22:46

go out and make career decisions

22:48

that no one is going to

22:50

like, which is helpful for society,

22:52

but it doesn't really. It has

22:55

a cost for you, I think

22:57

I would say. Yeah, and I'm

22:59

understanding you've chosen your inner relationship,

23:01

you're married? Oh, good. And that

23:04

came up for me as you

23:06

were saying that, because you are

23:08

in a partnership, and so you've

23:10

made lots of choices. Sure. That

23:13

sounds great. I never thought I'd

23:15

get a... a boyfriend is a

23:17

child, much less a fantastic, you

23:19

know, husband who makes lots of

23:22

money and does important work and

23:24

is, you know, a celebrity in

23:26

his own brain, is drop dead

23:28

sexy. Like, that's very exciting for

23:31

me. Yeah. So you are in

23:33

connection and you're naming even as

23:35

there's choices you've made because you've

23:37

been so comfortable. Like, I can't

23:39

remember how you said it, but

23:42

it's like, you had this whole

23:44

growing up of being. Is rejected

23:46

a word I can use? I

23:48

mean, did you felt rejected? I

23:51

think that's fair. That you've professionally,

23:53

you're in a lot of spaces

23:55

where you find yourself being rejected

23:57

by people who can't hold. hold

24:00

what you bring. And so there's

24:02

that and also there's this relationship,

24:04

this beautiful relationship that you're in

24:07

with a man who's dropped

24:09

dead sexy. This is amazing. I

24:11

love Frank. Yeah. Didn't mean to

24:13

get so emotional, I apologize. I

24:16

appreciate you being willing to be

24:18

personal with us. So what can

24:20

listeners, you know, if we're holding

24:22

this and hopefully again, our hearts

24:24

are open and people can really

24:26

hear that what you're sharing is.

24:28

there's a cost when someone like yourself

24:31

shows up and is willing to use

24:33

your voice and speak out in application

24:35

for so many who maybe aren't able

24:37

to use their voices or don't have

24:39

the resources or don't have the support,

24:41

that there is a cost. How can,

24:43

like, how can someone like me, how

24:46

can I help in support of that?

24:48

I don't know. That's a really good

24:50

question. I mean, just speaking with you

24:52

really honestly, I mean, I don't mean

24:54

to get political, but I really

24:56

truly wonder if I'm going to

24:58

have access to estrogen in the

25:00

next four years, the way that

25:02

things are going. Yeah, I wonder

25:04

if my legal change to female,

25:07

if that's going to be reconsidered.

25:09

There's legislation in Texas to rescind

25:11

that for trans women, and, you

25:13

know, there's a political project to

25:15

stop me from using the bathroom.

25:17

right now. So I guess what

25:19

I would hope people would

25:21

see or think about would

25:24

be, I understand there's a

25:26

discussion about trans women in

25:28

sports we need to have, but

25:31

at the same time, like, I

25:33

didn't ask to be born this

25:35

way. Like I literally went to

25:37

a doctor, I got health care,

25:40

and I just need people

25:42

to see my humanity. Ultimately,

25:45

I'm just trying to live

25:47

my life. you know, some of our

25:49

listeners who are clinicians who are

25:51

therapists or work in the mental

25:54

health field and I'm as well. And

25:56

so what I'm taking away from this

25:58

is like supporting this. civil

26:00

discourse and really holding nuance and

26:02

just seeing folks humanity and really

26:04

listening and hearing what you're saying

26:06

yeah and hearing the costs well

26:08

and taking action based on that

26:10

you know I mean I've never

26:13

I don't have children's I've never

26:15

donated to local school board races

26:17

before but you know there are

26:19

policies and effect that would be

26:21

very damaging to children just like

26:23

the child I was. So I

26:25

think, you know, I think that

26:27

there's just a wider public policy

26:29

conversation that we need and the

26:31

extremes are not going to serve

26:33

it. So I think it's all

26:35

hands on deck. I need all

26:37

the help I can get in

26:40

just steering the conversation to normalcy

26:42

again. Yeah, thank you. That helps

26:44

me again know the ways that

26:46

I can take action, even something

26:48

like... when I'm in the polls

26:50

and I'm voting. I mean, that's

26:52

an important one, but there's lots

26:54

of other ways too that we

26:56

can show up and take action.

26:58

Of course. So I'm curious, you

27:00

know, coming from a family where

27:02

you were adopted and growing up

27:04

in the South and being essentially

27:07

excommunicated from your family or your

27:09

culture, were there ways because you

27:11

named kind of there were some

27:13

maladaptive, what you termed as maladaptive

27:15

ways. And I really, you know,

27:17

you know, again as a therapist,

27:19

when working with working with there

27:21

can be a high level of

27:23

shame around some of the ways

27:25

that not just clients but like

27:27

myself like we all find ways

27:29

of surviving sure that work in

27:31

the moment and then later you

27:34

know especially into adulthood when we're

27:36

in our 40s 50s 60s like

27:38

those those strategies to survive are

27:40

no longer service and I wonder

27:42

you know as you as you

27:44

just named that how are some

27:46

of the ways that you've maybe

27:48

shifted Those strategies and I'm not

27:50

speaking specifics. I'll let you talk

27:52

about it and however you want

27:54

or don't want sure Well, I

27:56

think you know the way I

27:58

cut from you know, 18 to

28:01

24 was doing every drug I

28:03

could get my hands on.

28:05

That was, I think, probably

28:07

a suboptimal strategy. You know,

28:09

I found myself in a

28:11

super rehab, like live at

28:14

the hospital, have a whole

28:16

team of therapists working on

28:18

you rehab. I'll never forget the

28:20

day I left. They were like, here

28:22

are the stats. And in five

28:24

years, 90% of y'all are giving

28:27

right back here in addiction. I'm

28:29

like, I'm going to work as

28:31

hard as I can to be

28:33

part of that 5% there and

28:35

I got clean. So that was

28:37

something I've learned. But to be

28:39

honest, like so much of my

28:42

addiction was the fact that I

28:44

wasn't a woman. So when I

28:46

got help, like my desire to

28:48

do drugs largely went away. You

28:50

know, I think it has been

28:52

a lifelong effort to unlearn

28:54

some of these tendencies

28:56

like thinking react actively,

28:58

being emotionally reactive in the

29:00

moment, kind of trying to temper

29:03

that more, you know, that is

29:05

very difficult, like, where's the wisdom

29:07

and really having fire and being, you

29:09

know, showing up very powerfully and very

29:11

certain and kind of holding back

29:13

more, you know, being more strategic. I

29:15

think that's easier as you get older,

29:18

but I don't know. I think so

29:20

much of being trans as you constantly...

29:22

doubt your intentions or your judgment or

29:25

your perception of things. So I never

29:27

feel quite certain of that if that

29:29

makes sense to you. Yeah, it totally

29:31

makes sense. And I just keep coming

29:34

back to like, you kind of sped

29:36

through it. Like, I got out of

29:38

rehab and I just worked really hard

29:40

and then you moved on to the

29:42

next thing, but I'm like, that is

29:45

monumental. That's a big deal. And I'm wondering,

29:47

you know, like, what? Yeah, what really

29:49

helped you? I mean, I know you're

29:51

saying when you were able to transition

29:53

a lot of those strategies kind of

29:55

quieted or how you'd say it, but

29:57

just the drug addiction, even if we're

30:00

just talking about physiologically the addiction. Like

30:02

how overcoming that, what really supported you

30:04

in doing that? Well, in fact, I

30:06

was locked up in rehab with no

30:09

access to drugs. That's sure. But you

30:11

got out. That's true. And you knew

30:13

the stats. That's true. I mean, it

30:15

was like I felt so much better

30:18

once I wasn't on drugs, I was

30:20

not eager to go back, but I

30:22

think there's something about me that's just

30:24

an iron willpower. One of my favorite

30:27

things to do is marathon. And I

30:29

think like when you lock on a

30:31

goal and think threat and just ignore

30:34

all input, your body is telling you

30:36

to do anything differently. I don't know.

30:38

It's like... Sometimes when I want things,

30:40

I just shut off the part of

30:43

my brain that wants that and keep

30:45

going. Okay. Okay, so you found a

30:47

way. So when you say marathoning, you

30:49

mean like running? You're a runner? Yeah.

30:52

Yeah. Yeah. So you learn to kind

30:54

of choose which impulses, which output you're

30:56

going to listen to in terms of?

30:59

Yeah. That's right. Sematic experience. Okay. And

31:01

obviously it sounds like you've worked with

31:03

therapists. You've done rehab. Yeah, what's that

31:05

like been for you? What, can I

31:08

ask? What has been really helpful in

31:10

that process? I found, you know, one

31:12

of the things I remember the most

31:14

about rehab was group therapy. And I

31:17

have to tell you, I did a

31:19

program called the Professional Enhancement Program in

31:21

Hattiesburg, Mississippi, which is where Tiger Woods

31:24

went for his sex addiction. So this

31:26

is the Rolls Royce treatment. and what

31:28

they do is they bring you in

31:30

and you sit there with a bunch

31:33

of other drug addicts and you tell

31:35

them your story and then the drug

31:37

addicts call you on all your bullshit

31:39

and I have to tell you that

31:42

that will make you see yourself a

31:44

little bit more clearly when there are

31:46

all these stories you've been telling yourself

31:48

and you get that input from people.

31:51

So that was very helpful for me.

31:53

What helps you take that in though,

31:55

because I imagine there would be some

31:58

folks that they hear that and immediately

32:00

the walls go up and they're not

32:02

going to listen. Like why do you

32:04

think you allowed that to change, you

32:07

know, to shape? It's relentless. It's months

32:09

of living at the hospital and getting

32:11

hit again and again and again.

32:13

So. I don't know, like maybe it's

32:16

something positive in me, but it

32:18

was structured in why we eventually

32:20

took those lessons. So yeah, that

32:23

was very positive for me. And

32:25

I think, yeah, I noticed this

32:27

in the trans community a lot,

32:29

that there's a tendency to treat

32:31

clinicians as the enemy, which has

32:33

never really made sense to me.

32:35

It's like... You know, if you're

32:37

going to be there and you're

32:39

going to be talking to someone,

32:41

you need to take that seriously.

32:43

It's very easy to just tell

32:45

yourself what you want to hear,

32:47

but are you willing to do

32:49

the work? Are you willing to

32:51

look at some hard stuff and

32:53

make some changes? I just, I

32:56

feel like I've always been inevitable

32:58

to that if it makes sense.

33:00

Yeah, totally makes sense and I

33:02

can appreciate what you're saying. Like,

33:04

that would just be, how do I

33:06

say this? that you've cultivated around, you

33:09

know, the work, like, if I'm going

33:11

to be here, what do I actually

33:13

want out of it? You're connecting again

33:15

to the agency part. Like, there's something

33:17

here I can get out of this.

33:19

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Was there something else?

33:21

No, I'm just answering your questions. Okay,

33:23

I just was looking at your face

33:26

and it was like, maybe there was

33:28

something else there. I guess it's always

33:30

just playing to me if anyone's

33:32

interested in that. Good views. I

33:35

appreciate, you know, another perspective. You

33:37

have a totally different, you know,

33:39

place in the world where you're

33:41

looking at things and I'm excited

33:44

that I get to hear about

33:46

a different viewpoint in the world.

33:48

It is exciting to hear my viewpoint.

33:50

It is. I'm enjoying this and

33:52

I, you know, since you're here

33:54

and I feel like you would tell

33:56

it to me straight, Emily, you've

33:58

got this totally wrong. Because I

34:00

was having a conversation, this was

34:03

a few years ago, with a

34:05

friend who is in deep connection

34:07

with someone who is a trans

34:09

woman. And there was a conversation

34:11

around intersex. You said, oh, like

34:14

maybe you have some thoughts. But

34:16

I'm just wondering how folks can't

34:18

see there's this whole spectrum. And

34:20

like, why can't we hold space

34:22

for everyone and every experience? You

34:24

know, this is Emily really just

34:27

showing how little I know, but

34:29

I'm wondering if you can share,

34:31

I don't know, anything about that.

34:33

Well, you know, my husband has

34:35

a PhD in bacterial genetics and

34:37

he was showing me a study

34:40

the other day that he found,

34:42

basically, they had a very high

34:44

end of trans women and they

34:46

took out the ones with comorbidities

34:48

and they gene sequenced all of

34:51

them and compared them to a

34:53

group of biological women and in

34:55

men and look for... commonalities there.

34:57

And what they found is there

34:59

are a lot of common markers

35:01

that trans women had with protein

35:04

receptors related to both estrogen and

35:06

testosterone. And to be clear, we

35:08

don't know what conclusions to draw

35:10

from this yet, but it was

35:12

a very recent study, and it's

35:15

a large end, and it's methodologically

35:17

sound. And I think it's reasonable

35:19

to guess from that I probably

35:21

process estrogen and testosterone differently than

35:23

most natal males do. And what

35:25

I can tell you is for

35:28

me, I remember so clearly during

35:30

puberty, just feeling like testosterone was

35:32

breaking my brain and making me

35:34

feel stuff that was just otherworldly

35:36

and unnatural and clouding my thinking.

35:39

And the day I went on

35:41

estrogen, it was like, I cannot

35:43

tell you how many times I

35:45

sat there and like watched a

35:47

romantic movie before I transitioned. I'm

35:49

like, I should be crying right

35:52

now. I could just feel nothing.

35:54

I was just dead. and it's

35:56

like you get on estrogen it's

35:58

like going from having four colors

36:00

to see the world with to a

36:03

giant box of 64 Crayola crayons.

36:05

And you can laugh at

36:07

stuff and you're, it's

36:09

like, there's clearly some

36:11

biological basis for why

36:13

estrogen just agrees with

36:16

trans women so much. You

36:18

know, and I just, I

36:20

don't know. I think, like,

36:22

if anyone knows me, like,

36:24

I'm a reasonably feminine person.

36:26

And I just, I hope they can

36:28

see like there's no. version of me

36:30

where I'm a pro wrestler or I'm

36:32

happy like that is just fundamentally not

36:35

what I am. Well I asked

36:37

the right person. I think you're the

36:39

only person maybe that I could have

36:41

felt like asking that question. I don't

36:43

know. Again, there's so little that I

36:45

know and I'm not a scientist in

36:47

that way, but I've always been so

36:49

curious about what that experience is actually

36:51

like to that spectrum that you're naming.

36:53

Oh my goodness. And again, because I

36:55

don't know the science behind it, but

36:57

it just has always made sense to

36:59

me that like, of course there would

37:01

be this spectrum of experience. And like,

37:03

why are we, why are there boxes?

37:06

Why does someone have to be this

37:08

or that when there's this? you know, beautiful

37:10

box of 64 grand that we can

37:12

experience. So anyway, I feel a little

37:14

bit, I'm uneducated in asking that question,

37:17

I don't even really know that I

37:19

asked a question, I just sort of

37:21

put, there's this thing that I've been

37:24

curious about and you have this. specific

37:26

perspective. It also happened to be married.

37:28

What does your husband do? Tell me

37:30

again. He basically passed the patent bar.

37:33

So he works on patent law for

37:35

a biotech company. So like the

37:37

COVID vaccine, he worked on

37:39

the lipid nanoparticle delivery system

37:41

that made the moderna virus vaccine

37:44

work, which is very exciting. Fascinating.

37:46

Yeah. Oh my gosh. But I was just

37:49

going to say about that going back to

37:51

something. You know, if you really, I

37:53

didn't understand this until I married

37:55

my all kinds of weird hacky

37:57

solutions for stuff. I look at

37:59

menstruation. Like, you've got the problem

38:01

in the uterus, we've got to

38:03

eject an egg once a month,

38:06

and what is the solution that

38:08

we came to with that? Shed

38:10

the entire, like, lining of the

38:12

uterus and bleed a ton? And

38:14

it works, but that's not the

38:16

best design in the entire world.

38:18

And the way I perceive what

38:21

happened to me is, like, it's

38:23

not normal for natal males to

38:25

be going through puberty and thinking,

38:27

like, like, I should have breasts

38:29

right now, my chest feels very

38:31

very strange, or to just feel

38:33

so dysphoric and freaked out by

38:36

the idea of having a penis.

38:38

And when you're sitting there having

38:40

crushes on boys to think like,

38:42

this would be great, but this

38:44

really needs to be a vagina

38:46

to feel correct to me, to

38:49

the point that I just avoided

38:51

sex until I got vaginoplasty many

38:53

years later. So I think... There's

38:55

like some mismatch in our mind

38:57

and our bodies and there's just

38:59

some inefficient thing that's going on.

39:01

I don't know if it's a

39:04

feminization of the brain or some

39:06

way the testosterone just doesn't agree

39:08

with this, but there's there's something

39:10

fundamentally biological in nature that happened

39:12

to me. Well, what I love

39:14

is that you have you're navigating

39:16

your way through and you've found

39:19

so many ways to create a

39:21

beautiful life for yourself and to

39:23

be in connection and to share

39:25

your work and and also be

39:27

vulnerable and name like that there's

39:29

a cost to that. I mean

39:31

you think on some level many

39:34

of us can relate to this

39:36

piece around the work that we

39:38

do there's a cost. Yeah. And

39:40

checking in with ourselves around like

39:42

well okay so what do I

39:44

really want? What cost am I

39:47

choosing here? Anyway so again coming

39:49

back to that piece that you

39:51

said earlier of like making the

39:53

best of our choices. That's a

39:55

very high cost. I mean, having

39:57

lost my family, that is massive.

39:59

Yeah. all the pain of being

40:02

trans is bad, but every year,

40:04

like Christmas, Thanksgiving, I mean,

40:06

it's just, it's brutal.

40:08

It is, it is, I've got a colleague

40:10

that's Jewish and she was

40:12

writing me wanting to meet

40:14

on Christmas because she doesn't

40:17

celebrate. I'm like, sure, I'm

40:19

not doing anything. I don't

40:21

have anyone. So it's, you know,

40:23

I think about the cost. that

40:25

it took for me to be

40:27

myself authentically, which isn't just taking

40:29

a chartee, it's been having my

40:32

face taken apart, you know, it's

40:34

been having my body taken apart,

40:36

it's been losing my family, it's

40:39

been, you know, losing touch with

40:41

most of the people I grew

40:43

up. It's been, you know, now

40:45

dealing with constant abuse on the

40:47

internet from from JK rallying.

40:49

It's just exhausting, but there's

40:51

this inch of us. that's

40:53

just authentic and real. And

40:55

I know firsthand the cost

40:57

of compromising that and pretending

41:00

to be something that I'm

41:02

not. Yeah. And I just, you know,

41:04

it's like that integrity in who

41:06

I am. I don't have anything

41:09

that's more precious to me than

41:11

that. So there's no choice. Yeah.

41:13

I'm just sitting with that.

41:15

The cost in giving up the

41:18

integrity, like that's not a

41:20

choice you're willing to make. No.

41:22

Yeah, thank you. Well, I want to be mindful

41:24

of your time, but I'm wondering for

41:26

you as we move to closing, I'm

41:28

wondering if there's anything else that, you

41:31

know, is on your heart or that you'd

41:33

like to share with our listeners. I

41:35

feel like I've ever shared so much.

41:37

I guess I would just say, like,

41:39

I understand this is a hot topic

41:41

right now and just ask people to

41:43

take a breath and understand this is

41:45

a very difficult. political climate

41:47

for trans people and in

41:49

kindness you can show us

41:51

in this moment. It will

41:54

be remembered forever. Thank you.

41:56

Of course. Thank you, Riana, for

41:58

showing up and using. your voice

42:00

and sharing with our community your story

42:02

and and how we can you know

42:05

show up as humans and recognize everyone's

42:07

humanity. I just were so valuable and

42:09

really appreciate you. Thanks for inviting me.

42:11

And I always you know at the

42:13

end if folks would like to be

42:16

in contact with your work and the

42:18

things that you're doing can you share

42:20

with listeners where they can find you.

42:22

Easy to find me on Twitter. I've

42:25

just ran a woo there. If you

42:27

are interested in my show, I do

42:29

one called Dollcast with three other pretty

42:31

normal trans women. We're kind of trying

42:34

to navigate some more moderate politics. And

42:36

maybe by the time this comes out,

42:38

my new show with a major media

42:40

network will be announced. So you can

42:42

see me there, maybe. Awesome. Awesome. I

42:45

love it. There was, I don't know

42:47

if this was a comment on your,

42:49

on your YouTube, but a gentleman left

42:51

a comment that I thought might land

42:54

for people or might help open some

42:56

minds. Sure. There was a listener and

42:58

I'll just, I'll cut it a little

43:00

bit, but he says, hello, I'm a

43:03

first time listener, this is to your

43:05

YouTube. Dalcast, Dalis is slang for trans

43:07

women that are feminine. I didn't come

43:09

up with that I think it's cringe.

43:11

So this gentleman says, hello, I'm a

43:14

first time listener. I'm not trans, I'm

43:16

a cis hetero guy. And while I've

43:18

had quite a few trans friends and

43:20

colleagues, I'm definitely not in any spaces

43:23

where trans issues and ideas are being

43:25

discussed or debated. And I think there's

43:27

probably a lot of people, this is

43:29

cut to Emily saying this. There's probably

43:31

a lot of people that could identify

43:34

like that. Like I feel like I've

43:36

got an open mind, but I'm just

43:38

not in spaces where a lot of

43:40

these conversations are taking place. And so

43:43

I really appreciate and I've found myself

43:45

seeking out more, you know, podcasts and

43:47

things like that to just educate myself

43:49

a bit more. So he says, so

43:52

I'm finding this episode to be super

43:54

interesting and eye opening, like if I've

43:56

wandered into a 400 level university course

43:58

and I feel I didn't know existed.

44:00

processing so many paradigms, shattering ideas, that

44:03

transitioning isn't right for every trans person,

44:05

that there's too much emphasis on external

44:07

validation. Like he just starts naming all

44:09

these topics that y'all are talking about

44:12

on this dollcast. So I just, I

44:14

appreciate, again, the work that you're doing,

44:16

bringing these conversations to many of us

44:18

who, you know, would like to know

44:21

and be more educated. and also are

44:23

not generally in spaces where a lot

44:25

of these conversations are taking place. So

44:27

I just want to name that for

44:30

any listeners who would like to educate

44:32

yourself a little bit more and

44:34

see some different perspectives that Brianna's work

44:36

does that. I love my co-hosts. It

44:38

is, you know, please understand, from my

44:40

point of view, I never thought I

44:42

would get to sit around to have

44:45

girl chat with people like at a

44:47

Starbucks, like that was a dream for

44:49

me growing up. And the fact that

44:51

I get to a show now, not

44:53

just with the girl chat, but you

44:55

know, like three other really feminine, normal

44:57

trans women, and yeah, most of the

44:59

show is I was talking about

45:02

just normal stuff, like relationships,

45:04

marriage, hair, career, you know,

45:06

fashion, like just normal stuff

45:08

that normal women are dealing

45:10

with, right? Like how do you

45:12

deal with being a public figure?

45:15

And I think it is so

45:17

valuable, especially with all these really

45:19

negative stereotypes out there of what

45:21

trans women are, to just show

45:23

like, look, we're fairly normal women

45:25

that you wouldn't link out if

45:27

you walked past us in a

45:29

restaurant having lunch together. So that's

45:31

what I'm really proud of at

45:33

the show. And I feel like I

45:35

probably need to watch more just because

45:37

I feel like you all probably have

45:39

some hair tips. I do. Oh, say

45:41

anything again. You weren't going to know

45:43

you weren't going to mention my hair

45:46

today, but I'll mention it. I didn't

45:48

time to do mine either. So I

45:50

know I got your email and I

45:52

was like, oh, I should have given

45:54

you that extra time. We had it.

45:56

But anyways, no, this is, this has

45:58

been so fun. Thank you, Brianna. Just

46:00

feeling heart connected to you and

46:02

that you shared and I'm looking

46:05

forward to being more in connection

46:07

with your work and getting some

46:09

hair tips. We'll bring you on

46:12

the show. We'll fix it. We'll

46:14

fix it for you. Be one

46:16

of those makeover shows where you

46:19

can do me over. All right,

46:21

thank you, Brianna. I appreciate you.

46:24

Thanks so much for joining us

46:26

for today's episode. To find more

46:28

information about our guest, check the

46:31

show notes or visit us at

46:33

Complex Trauma Training Center.com/transforming trauma. You

46:35

can also connect with us in

46:38

other ways. We're on Instagram, Facebook,

46:40

and YouTube. As a mental health

46:43

professional, your commitment to healing and

46:45

growth inspires us. We at the

46:47

Complex Trauma Training Center are committed

46:50

to supporting you in your well-being

46:52

and success. That's why we're honored

46:54

to invite you to our space

46:57

program 2025, an inner development program

46:59

of support and self-discovery for therapists,

47:01

on the personal, interpersonal, and trans-personal

47:04

levels. Running over six online sessions

47:06

in 2025, this interactive experiential learning

47:09

program is designed to support self-care

47:11

and self-discovery for therapists, exploring internally,

47:13

relationally, and transpersonally. CTTC faculty will

47:16

welcome you into a professional community

47:18

of therapists that are seeking to

47:20

create greater effectiveness and resilience in

47:23

our professional lives. As CTTC faculty

47:25

brat camera says, the intent is

47:27

that this program will help us

47:30

not only become more effective therapists,

47:32

but also love our work more.

47:35

Please visit Complex Trauma Training Center.com

47:37

and secure your spot in the

47:39

2025 space program. Thanks to Andrea

47:42

Clunder and the Creative Imposter Studios

47:44

for producing and editing to Elisa

47:46

Spahn Seller for album art and

47:49

to Brad Cammer for the creation

47:51

of this podcast. We look forward

47:53

to building community and connection with

47:56

you and changing the world by

47:58

transforming drama.