0:05

Two of the most influential

0:07

bands in music history. Joy

0:09

Division pissed all over everybody. I mean, they were much, much

0:11

better than us. This man with the

0:13

weight of the whole

0:15

universe in his voice, this

0:17

crooner from some black hole.

0:20

One incredible tale. It's

0:22

hard enough, you know, just to be in a

0:24

marriage or to stay friends with

0:27

someone forever, you know, imagine having to be

0:29

in a band with someone for like decades. It's

0:32

a miracle, you know? There

0:34

was a cold beauty about it that really

0:36

touched me. It's like

0:38

New Order of giving people

0:41

in Manchester everything, everything.

0:45

I'm Elizabeth Olker. This is

0:47

Transmissions, the definitive story

0:49

of Joy Division and New Order.

0:57

Coming up in episode two. Squeeze

0:59

into your leather thigh highs and your

1:01

latex cat suits. We're going

1:03

deep into the underbelly with low life.

1:10

They were out every night. And

1:12

I'd go out maybe once or twice in

1:14

the session. Low life, they'd started living up

1:16

to low life. They started going to bondage

1:18

clubs and things. A

1:20

flirtation with the underground? Yes. And

1:23

also a new level of exposure.

1:27

P.S.S.I.P. called it demystification of the band.

1:29

That was because Sam's always got to

1:32

have a word and that

1:34

was demystification on low life. By

1:37

the time New Order began to think about

1:39

recording the follow-up to Power, Corruption and Lies,

1:42

they'd signed a new deal with Quincy Jones

1:44

and Quest Records. The benefits

1:46

of the deal were obvious. Play your

1:49

cards right and you just might

1:51

crack America. But if

1:53

they wanted to do that, then there would

1:55

need to be some concessions. For the first

1:57

time since they'd formed, New Order would have

1:59

to end. to entertain the requests of forces

2:01

external to the group. They

2:03

weren't just in an Arctic factory band anymore.

2:06

They were now on the payroll of

2:08

Warner Records. Tom Atencio, who'd proven his

2:10

passion by coming to blows with New

2:13

Orders manager, Rob Greten, at a miner's

2:15

benefit gig, became their point man

2:17

in the States. So it

2:19

was his job to help the band adjust

2:22

to their new obligations. Peter Hook. Tom

2:24

became a great friend and

2:26

his frustration with the way that

2:29

we worked and Rob Greten worked

2:32

was legendary. He

2:34

did not understand why anybody

2:37

would not want to capitalize

2:39

on the talent that they'd

2:41

got. And New Order

2:43

and Rob just

2:46

did everything in their way

2:48

to be unsuccessful. But

2:52

before we get into that transatlantic tug

2:54

of war, there's one question left

2:57

on my mind. Just how

2:59

exactly had Quincy Jones caught

3:01

wind of this strange, bloody-minded

3:04

indie band? Conspiracy

3:06

theories abound. Stephen Morris.

3:09

So when we're on the American tour, one of the

3:11

things that you must do if you've not been before

3:13

is go to Disneyland and take

3:15

LSD, but we'll skip the LSD bit. But

3:18

while we were in Disneyland, we left

3:20

our own devices and Rob had gone

3:22

to a business meeting with Tony, with

3:25

David Geffen and Rob was sort

3:27

of outside the office for a

3:30

very, very long time waiting. And

3:33

then the door opened and out

3:35

came Michael Jackson. And David Geffen

3:37

says, oh, I had Michael. Michael,

3:39

this is Rob Greten, New Order's manager.

3:42

And Rob dined on this for years and

3:44

he come up to me and he said,

3:47

hi Rob, I've heard so much about

3:49

you. Michael Jackson, you

3:51

remember who I was? That was like,

3:54

yeah, at the time, the Quincy

3:56

Michael Jackson connection was sort of

3:58

like, they made great. records and

4:00

made fucking great records along

4:03

the same sort of lines that we

4:05

would like to make records. And

4:07

Quincy's version. This was around the

4:09

time of, around the time I was just, became

4:11

aware of craft work and smell of the techno

4:14

pop groups but but New Order

4:16

was always different as

4:19

human beings, as musicians and everything and they

4:21

they it was they were funky and

4:24

they had tight time because naturally when you're

4:26

dealing with sequences you know the time's going

4:28

to be nailed down with spikes which

4:31

I loved and they knew how to really deal

4:33

with dance music. Once

4:37

the deal had been drafted all that

4:39

remained was for New Order to meet

4:41

their new label boss, Quincy himself, Gillian

4:43

Gilbert. We took him out for a

4:45

meal at this restaurant, quite

4:48

a posh restaurant it called Bellapot

4:50

and he was fascinated by the

4:52

shepherd's pie. He thought that was

4:55

wonderful, yeah

4:57

that's when he came over to

4:59

see us because it was getting

5:01

serious then. There's likely no better

5:03

tableau to dwell upon than Quincy

5:05

Jones, a living, breathing legend, blowing

5:08

on a fork full of shepherd's pie

5:10

and a Manchester bistro. It

5:12

sums it all up really doesn't it? This

5:15

band, rooted in the honesty and

5:17

humour of the north of England but reaching

5:19

way across the Atlantic, wide eyed at the

5:21

glitz and glamour of America and it wasn't

5:24

long before they'd pay Quincy a visit on

5:26

his home turf. We went to his house

5:28

and it was like I had a massive

5:30

piano in and it was just massive you

5:32

know and we were like lived in little

5:35

terraces and houses and stuff and

5:37

it was just like another world to

5:40

us. We went round to his house and

5:42

Natascha Kolkinski, he was with

5:44

it and signed that and answered the door and

5:47

we went in and his record player was broken and

5:49

I fixed his record player for him and

5:52

got a studio downstairs, his

5:54

lad was down in the

5:56

studio, the idea of a

5:58

potential collaboration. between Quincy

6:01

and ourselves came up and

6:03

I was kind of like, fucking hell, we can't

6:05

do that. We just about got away with it

6:07

with Arthur Baker. If we go in

6:10

the studio with Quincy and he finds out we're

6:12

complete idiots, we'll be

6:14

rumples. ["The The

6:19

The The The

6:25

The The The

6:31

The The

6:36

The The

6:41

The The

6:45

The The

6:49

The The

6:54

The The

7:00

The The

7:05

The The The

7:09

first opportunity to capitalise on the

7:11

potentially lucrative New Deal would come

7:13

in the form of that all-important

7:15

new album. From in October of

7:18

1984, New Order decamped to

7:20

Jam Studios in the UK capital to

7:23

begin work on their third LP. I

7:35

remember we had a flat that we rented by

7:38

Harrods and we were staying in that flat and

7:40

then travelling across London in the morning. It

7:42

was just a little flat where we are. It

7:44

was cheaper than staying at a hotel. And

7:47

we went shopping in Harrods and bought

7:49

lobster bisque. What's that lobster bisque? Let's

7:51

get some of that. Buying all this

7:53

posh food that we'd never heard of

7:56

and cooking it for ourselves. Rob's

8:00

insistence, like, uh,

8:02

Morcom and Bloodywise, you know, which

8:04

was very much a new order

8:07

trait, was to go away and

8:09

do everything. There was none

8:11

of this, you know, going home at the end

8:13

of it, and they're like, oh, that we were

8:15

taken out of our environment, which was Rob's very

8:17

strict proviso, was that you were taken

8:19

away and you were going away and you were gonna work

8:21

here until it was done. And that

8:23

was that, you know, and it did work. It

8:26

didn't lead to many comfortable moments

8:28

with your missus, which,

8:31

you know, seemed to appeal to him, really.

8:37

Relationships outside of the band may have

8:39

been tested, but the group

8:41

themselves were strong. By all

8:43

accounts, this was a happy and harmonious

8:46

time. Cos

8:49

you always start working during the day, we

8:52

sort of got into this thing where

8:54

we'd go out clubbing again after

8:57

we'd finished, cos the clubs were out until 4 o'clock, 5

8:59

o'clock in the morning. So we had a

9:01

sort of good night-time atmosphere going. And

9:04

we used to go in early evening, and

9:07

I remember this mad time that

9:09

Barney used to go around wearing a white lab

9:11

coat, and he had

9:13

coffee filters strapped to his shoes. I

9:16

don't know why, it was just a memory. Just

9:19

used to have a really good laugh in the

9:21

studio altogether. It was so

9:23

funny. But

9:26

with four committed headinists bouncing around

9:28

in the studio, there were

9:30

naturally a few distractions to contend with.

9:32

I remember on lowlife, it was

9:35

pretty intense, and the amount of

9:37

fun we were having in the

9:39

studio had got very excessive by

9:41

that stage, and it was more

9:43

the same power corruption in lives,

9:45

but perhaps a little bit more

9:47

excessive. We're always quite recreationally minded,

9:50

and the dimensions changed as time

9:52

went on. I can only speak

9:54

for myself that I smoked a

9:56

lot of part on movement to a fair

9:58

bit of acid doing... power corruption

10:00

and lies and later

10:02

on in low life is when the coke

10:04

arrived. Excessive

10:16

perhaps but not enough to interfere

10:18

with proceedings, at least

10:20

not according to Peter Hook. We were

10:22

still playing out but we were actually

10:25

playing out with a realism that

10:27

next day we were in the studio so

10:29

there was still a healthy respect shown

10:32

to the recording process. And the

10:34

title for this new record? Gillian

10:37

remembers that coming along quite early.

10:39

I remember watching this television program

10:41

all together at the studio and

10:43

it was a guy going on

10:46

about how he loved being part

10:48

of the low life you know

10:50

drinking all day and how great

10:52

fun it was and that title

10:54

always stuck with us. So that's

10:56

your title sorted, now all

10:58

you have to do is record the

11:00

thing. After all the hubbub of Blue

11:02

Monday, Stephen Morris remembers the process beginning

11:04

with a bit of a palate cleanser.

11:06

I think the first track that actually

11:08

got recorded for low life was Alagia

11:10

which I thought right this would be

11:12

really good to do something which was

11:14

a complete anti-Blue Monday and to do

11:16

it in some would say three

11:18

four other people would argue six eight depending

11:21

on how muso you are and try not

11:23

having any drums in it at all so

11:25

it's kind of you're doing a waltz which

11:27

is not usually popular in discotheques and

11:29

also very slow and also very very long.

11:42

Peter Hook. What happened

11:44

was was that at this cutting studio

11:46

in Wembley there was a

11:48

great guy there called Melvin who was

11:50

the cutting engineer and it

11:52

was supposed to be a very

11:54

clean very antiseptic process this cutting

11:57

of a record and he

11:59

would be smoking on it. over it with a cigarette and

12:01

they'd be ass-dropping up and they'd be like, pfft,

12:04

pfft, just blowing it off the thing. And we

12:06

were like, wow, this guy's wild. And

12:08

anyway, he said, oh, we've opened a new studio. And

12:10

he said, I don't know if you'd like to come

12:12

in for a day and try it out, you know,

12:14

as a new order. Poor Melvin.

12:16

He had no idea what he was

12:19

letting himself in for. I think that

12:21

Melvin, his day lasted,

12:23

say, eight hours, like a normal

12:26

working day. Whereas our day

12:29

lasted for 24 hours. So

12:31

once we'd been there about 12 hours, he

12:33

was fucked. He was rough with

12:36

that. I couldn't even stand up. And

12:38

we carried on for another 12 hours, probably a

12:41

bit of speeding, no other thought. And

12:43

we did Elegia, the 18 minute

12:45

version or whatever, and built it

12:47

up and jammed it in the studio, most of

12:50

the part. If you listen to the bass part,

12:52

you can hear that it's jammed. There's mistakes in

12:54

it and everything. So, yeah, I

12:56

mean, we really got our money's worth on that

12:58

tryout. And I'll never forget his face at

13:00

the end of the 24 hours when another

13:02

band was waiting to come in. And

13:05

he said, well, great, what a session,

13:07

what a session. He said, do you

13:09

think you'll come back? And we went,

13:11

no, no, we don't like it. For

13:20

Johnny Marr, it takes vision to

13:22

make a track like Elegia. There's

13:25

a grandeur and almost like Maracone-like

13:27

sense of beauty. Yeah, and grandeur's

13:29

a word, I think. But that's...

13:32

They sort of are almost embarrassed

13:34

to indulge when they talk about their

13:36

own music, and that's the position they

13:38

take. I think really that's

13:41

the right way round. Off the stage,

13:43

don't be a bleep, or

13:45

in your work, strive. But

14:01

it wasn't all intellectualism and grandeur.

14:04

Elsewhere on low life, New Order

14:06

was soaking up inspiration from all

14:08

the exciting nightlife that London had

14:10

to offer. What

14:16

happened

14:19

was Kevin, who managed heaven, he

14:22

told us about this club. Now

14:24

I'd actually seen the magazines, I'd seen

14:26

the Skin 2 magazine. And

14:30

this was the club night that Skin 2

14:32

the magazine ran. So

14:34

I think Bernard and I went

14:37

down with Kevin on the first night.

14:39

And it was wild. It

14:41

was like a cross between the Batcave

14:43

and Notting Hill. And

14:46

yeah, this kind of

14:48

sub-domination, weird aspect

14:50

to it that we didn't partake

14:52

of, I must say. But

14:55

as soon as we saw all these old

14:57

blokes getting their arses slapped by these dominatrixes,

15:00

we just thought it was dead funny. It was a great place

15:02

to go for a drink. Gillian Gilbets.

15:04

Skin 2 was the only place open till

15:06

four o'clock. So of course, when you've been

15:08

in the studio all night, we used to

15:10

go there. But you had to

15:12

wear leather or plastic

15:15

or rubber. I mean, I remember

15:17

getting some stuff. But

15:19

I don't remember them. My

15:21

hookie was dressed in leather anyway because he

15:24

wore the Batcave boots. So he got in.

15:27

I don't know what Barney wore. And I think they just

15:29

let him in because he wore shorts. Something

15:31

stupid. The club made a lasting impression

15:34

on the band. Two of

15:36

low life's tracks would emerge from their

15:38

experiences there. Just listen to

15:40

the lyrics of subculture. And

15:52

you will submit and

15:54

it's got to hurt

15:56

you. I love you,

15:58

baby. Subculture was

16:00

inspired by Skin 2 and this

16:03

time of night was the other

16:05

one that was influenced by that

16:07

club. The lyrics were done to

16:10

accommodate it. I'm amazed that

16:12

those two songs never made it onto

16:14

Fifty Shades of Grey. I thought they

16:16

were destined for that film. Clearly

16:25

inspiration was firing on

16:27

all cylinders. Take

16:29

album opener Love Vigilantes, a

16:32

favourite of chemical brother Tom Rowlands.

16:35

I remember buying Low Life when it

16:37

came out and just even just

16:39

the way it starts you know it's

16:41

just that snare drum at the start you

16:43

know Love Vigilantes and it's just like it's

16:46

still just such an incredible sound.

16:50

That track was apparently a response to

16:52

the Falklands war. Why

16:56

was it

16:59

about the

17:02

Falklands? Well it was

17:05

kind of I'd

17:13

be there you know that's better than it's called. I'd

17:15

be there you know if I wasn't in a band

17:17

I don't. Not a chance you know.

17:19

It was a bit because lyrically

17:22

it's kind of about that sort

17:25

of thing but I still say it's

17:27

more Ruby Don't Take Your Love to

17:29

Time which is again a similar sort

17:31

of thing. It's the anti anti-war song

17:33

you know masquerading as something that might

17:35

possibly be pro-war but then analyse it

17:37

and you'll find it definitely isn't. And

17:40

of course there's a beauty in keeping things

17:42

vague. Well anti-war doesn't date really because you

17:45

know it might fade a bit but sooner

17:47

or later some twat's gonna kick off again

17:49

and suddenly you're back in fashion. You can't

17:51

go wrong with an anti-war song. But

17:54

Love Vigilantes was notable for another

17:56

reason too. It marked

17:58

a songwriting contribution. for the

18:00

relative newcomer Gillian Gilbert. Now

18:30

when Gillian hears that song, she hears

18:32

herself finding her feet in the band.

19:00

Then the next minute they'd asked me to be in

19:02

the band. So I rehearsed

19:04

all these songs that you'd already wrote. And

19:07

then we just carried on. So it's quite a big

19:09

thing for me. So we even have one

19:11

note included in a song. So then

19:13

he got to two notes. I think

19:15

it's four notes in the end for

19:17

the little vigilantes. My wife

19:20

and child waiting for me, I've

19:22

got to go home. I've

19:25

been so alone here to sleep.

19:29

The duel in Low Life's Crown came

19:32

very near the end of the recording

19:34

session. The perfect kiss. Bernard

19:36

Somner. By that time we'd

19:39

run out of time and there was a

19:41

definite cut off point because we were going

19:43

on tour in Australia. So

19:46

we started it and I really felt like

19:48

the song had something and was important to

19:50

finish it for the album. So

19:52

we stayed up for three

19:54

days, solid, constantly without any sleep. I

20:06

remember that three-day session pretty well

20:08

because when you stay up for that amount

20:10

of time, time starts speeding

20:13

up and the cleaners

20:15

were coming in and they seemed to

20:17

be there for like five seconds and

20:19

then the day staff would come in

20:22

and they seemed to be there for like a couple

20:24

of hours and then went home. It

20:26

was all about strange but we finished the track. With

20:38

the album finished, the usual conversations began.

20:40

Which track would they silo off for

20:42

a single? What's enigmatic image

20:45

to select for the artwork? Previously

20:48

all that had been settled

20:50

in-house but now there was

20:52

an American record label weighing in. Tomatencio

20:55

saw his role as New Order's

20:57

American label rep as

20:59

a job primarily of translation. How

21:02

do you express and

21:04

accelerate and present

21:07

something so thoughtful and

21:10

so rather un-American? It's not

21:12

business-like at all. To

21:14

say it's an intellectual process is doing

21:16

the band an injustice because I don't

21:19

think they feel that. I think they

21:21

feel that quality should be heard and

21:23

presented and that's enough and of course

21:25

it needs

21:28

a platform. It needs to be presented

21:30

in a context in a way and

21:33

Peter Savile provided a lot

21:35

of that context. I mean here where it truly

21:37

covers it didn't give a shit because the band

21:39

wasn't even on it front or

21:42

back right. You had no idea

21:44

that this was a group of

21:46

very attractive people making this rather

21:48

incredible music. I mean it's fabulous

21:51

but not what you'd consider great

21:53

moments in marketing. Tom felt the

21:55

band should do more to

21:58

maximise the impact of their music. Low

22:00

life, our first concession was

22:02

the, well, yeah, the trouble with you

22:04

guys is you don't put singles on

22:07

albums. I mean, that's why, you know,

22:09

as big as you two, well, is

22:11

that all it is? So,

22:14

well, but we don't put singles on

22:17

albums. That's a shit thing to do.

22:19

And it's a tradition that goes back

22:21

to the 60s of people not putting

22:23

singles on albums. And we thought it

22:25

was a good thing to keep up,

22:27

but we were advised that it possibly

22:29

would help our longevity. I'll

22:32

stay in the music business if we just

22:34

had a go at putting

22:36

a single on the album. And unfortunately,

22:38

the single that, in question, was

22:41

very, very, very, very, very long,

22:44

very long, the aforementioned Perfect

22:47

Kiss, yeah, which was a

22:50

little movie in itself. If

23:03

New Order had to give the Americans a

23:05

single on the album, of course it would

23:07

be an Odyssey. It was very New Order-y

23:10

in the big intro and the big outro

23:12

and the song kind of existed in the

23:14

middle. So I think we saw a way

23:17

that it could be used in

23:19

two different forms. So you

23:21

had the 12-inch, if you like, which we were

23:23

very happy with, and the

23:25

7-inch, which we put on the record.

23:27

So that was a big change for

23:29

us to do that. I

23:32

think that we actually stymied the people who

23:34

wanted us to be a little more normal

23:37

by having the two songs so

23:39

radically different. But yeah,

23:41

we were happy doing it. And the concessions

23:43

wouldn't stop there. When the

23:45

Perfect Kiss was released as a single,

23:47

the American label were keen to get

23:50

a proper music video, one

23:52

that actually featured the band, Tom

23:54

Atencio. Michael Shamburg, who was a

23:57

factory records employee in New York,

24:00

and had been with the band

24:02

since nearly the beginning, was a

24:05

trusted adviser and compatriot.

24:08

And Michael produced the

24:10

videos with me. The

24:12

first video that we did was Jonathan

24:15

Demme's Perfect Kiss, which I thought was

24:17

a great, great piece of film, 11

24:20

minutes long in its entirety, shot on 35mm. Jonathan

24:23

Demme would go on to win

24:26

an Oscar for directing Silence of

24:28

the Lambs. But here his subjects

24:30

were new order, in unforgiving detail.

24:33

11 minutes of them, up close in a

24:35

cramped rehearsal space. In a

24:38

revealing interview given to MTV News in 1985, an

24:42

enthusiastic Jonathan Demme, and

24:44

a somewhat subdued Peter Hook, offer

24:47

rare insight into the thinking behind the

24:49

video. And a bit of

24:51

perspective on what made it such a compelling

24:53

prospect. What if you do something incredibly simple?

24:56

What if something new means shooting the entire

24:58

piece, say, in close-up, so that you get

25:00

a chance to really study the concentration of

25:02

the musicians? Because I also wanted to suggest

25:04

to them that they play it live. It's

25:08

different when you don't mind. Actually, I mean, we

25:10

don't mind. So, what

25:12

can you do for a video apart from play? And

25:15

he was really into that. He was just interested in

25:17

showing a performance. They're a

25:19

funny group of people, and they're never

25:21

satisfied with their work, ever. So what

25:23

you're seeing in those expressions just then

25:26

was them going, hmm,

25:28

that wasn't quite as great as it could have

25:30

been. It might not seem like a radical idea,

25:33

but putting the band in the video,

25:35

letting fans into their rehearsal room to

25:37

watch them labour over the songs, that

25:40

was all new territory for this

25:42

enigmatic group. That deceptively

25:44

simple idea that Jonathan Demme

25:47

proudly describes gave New Order's

25:49

audience unprecedented access to the

25:51

band. The Irish producer,

25:53

Crystal Clear, remembers watching, riveted. I might

25:55

also be truly cliche, but I think

25:57

my favourite. New Order track is probably

25:59

the perfect kiss, but I actually prefer

26:01

the live version which was done in

26:04

their music video. You can see Gillian

26:06

powering up the synth and running like

26:08

the high end of the synth and

26:10

then the low end of the synth.

26:20

If you want to talk about

26:22

like New Order influencing me musically,

26:24

that's definitely a huge part of

26:26

a production technique that I pinched

26:28

directly from that. This

26:35

new transparency was all part

26:37

of what designer Peter Savile

26:39

termed demystification. I mean

26:41

demystification is a way of putting it,

26:43

but really that was a consequence of

26:46

how I felt. By 85 I'd

26:49

arrived at a point that

26:51

I found the conceptual difficult

26:54

to digest. In fact,

26:56

power corruption lies had proceeded in 83

26:58

and power corruption lies in

27:00

particular was conceptually

27:03

quite complex. It

27:14

dealt with a juxtaposition of

27:17

the historic with the technological, a kind

27:19

of sense of the past and the

27:21

future being part of the present. And

27:24

by 84 even I was finding that degree

27:29

of layered complexity kind of in a

27:31

way it had lost its

27:33

urgency. With Peter Savile feeling so

27:35

uninspired, a question mark hung

27:38

over the next New Order cover. And

27:40

so a crisis meeting was called by

27:42

factory boss Tony Wilson and Rob Greten.

27:45

And they looked at me and said,

27:47

what's happening? And I said, I

27:49

can't do it. And

27:51

they said, why? And I said,

27:53

because there's nothing that I want

27:55

to do. I mean, let's say

27:58

five or six years, the situation. develop

28:00

where there was this dependency that Peter always

28:02

had something he wanted to do. And I

28:04

didn't. And I said, there's only one thing

28:06

I can think of. And so they both

28:09

sat up with some expectation. And I said,

28:12

it's a picture of the group. And

28:14

it was like a deathly hush. I

28:16

mean, given the circumstances around Yorda, given

28:19

their reluctance to be photographed, their reluctance

28:21

to put themselves in front of their

28:23

music, this was almost a reasonable proposition.

28:26

You know, Rob was horrified and silent.

28:28

And Tony was silent for almost a

28:30

minute. I thought, oh, fuck. And

28:33

then Tony just said, it's brilliant. Putting

28:45

the band on the album cover, music

28:47

for Tomatencio's American ears. So the

28:49

first proper release in America is

28:51

lowlife. And it's also the first

28:53

time they appear on the But

28:56

Peter Savile was also legitimately interested

28:58

in the idea, the nowness

29:00

of it all. It seemed to me in

29:03

1985 to be the

29:05

right thing, but also given the pattern

29:07

of previous releases, also the most unexpected

29:09

thing. You know, I was aware that

29:12

the most unexpected thing for a new

29:14

order cover in 1985 was

29:16

going to be a picture of them. So

29:18

we then moved on, Rob kind of aligned

29:21

with it. And we then discussed how to

29:23

do it. And I said, I think I

29:25

have a bit of a plan for how

29:27

to do it. Of course, New Order would

29:29

never sign off on an idea like this

29:31

one. So when the photo

29:33

shoot was proposed, they thought they were

29:35

having publicity shots taken, a

29:37

concession to the American record label.

29:40

We were tricked into having our

29:42

pictures taken for the sleeve by

29:45

Peter Savile and Tony and Rob

29:47

Gretchen. And I never knew for

29:49

years afterwards. Having seen them photographed

29:52

before collectively, I knew

29:54

that each member of New Order had

29:56

to come to the studio individually, independently.

29:58

I needed them to

30:00

be just apart from one another so

30:03

that the repartee and self-consciousness, that

30:05

that was sort of not interrupting

30:07

what we were doing. So

30:14

we all went in with him individually. We

30:16

all didn't know what we were doing. We

30:18

had to keep it all a secret of

30:20

what your photograph was going to be like.

30:22

It was all very secretive. I

30:24

was completely off my face. You

30:27

can tell, can't you? It's the

30:29

only way I can relax and have

30:31

my photograph taken successfully is

30:34

by being on the verge of falling

30:36

into some sort of dope induced coma.

30:46

With individual images of all the

30:49

band members captured, Peter now

30:51

had to decide how to make an album

30:53

cover of the disparate pieces. And

30:55

naturally you think, well, Bernid's going to be

30:58

on the cover and then Hooky's going

31:00

to be on the back. And

31:02

me and Stephen will probably be in

31:04

the middle. But it was completely ended

31:06

up the opposite way around. The

31:09

front cover of Low Life features a portrait

31:11

of Stephen Morris, sort

31:13

of. He distorted them with some early

31:15

kind of computer, which did nothing for

31:17

Steve's chin, but did this

31:20

long drawn out weird process. So it wasn't actually

31:22

a picture of you. It was a dotted picture

31:24

of you. If Tom Atencio had

31:26

anticipated anything as obvious as a

31:29

straightforward album cover, he'd

31:31

have another thing coming. I didn't want it

31:33

to look like an album sleeve, so therefore

31:35

there couldn't be a front and a back.

31:37

So therefore I couldn't put any type on

31:39

it. I couldn't put the title on it.

31:42

So there was

31:44

a gallery catalog on the shelf in

31:46

the studio with a tracing paper cover

31:48

around it. And I

31:50

thought, oh, that will do. As

31:57

with all of the band's concessions to the

31:59

American label. There was an element

32:01

of rebellion in the gesture. So it's like on

32:03

the one hand, he wanted our pictures to be

32:05

on it, but on the other hand, he obscured

32:07

the pictures and made it that if anybody wanted

32:09

to look at the picture, they had to rip

32:12

open the sleeve, which was actually quite good because

32:14

a lot of people actually bought two copies, but

32:16

the Americans didn't get it, they didn't understand it.

32:19

They just thought we were being difficult, which I suppose

32:21

in a funny way we were. It was

32:23

about being punk and doing

32:25

these self-destructive things.

32:32

The Americans might not have understood, but

32:34

the fans did. Tom Rollins.

32:36

Their records were kind of, they were

32:38

like treasured artefacts sort of thing, even

32:40

at that age, you know, something like

32:42

Low Life, the actual record of Low

32:44

Life. I don't know, they

32:47

just felt like real special things to

32:49

own. They were treated with reverence

32:51

in my sort of record collection, you know, like

32:53

the delicate sleeve of Low Life and the way

32:55

it was like you felt you had something special.

32:58

And the critics seemed to get it as well. One

33:00

of the reviews for the album referred

33:03

to that tracing paper as the veil

33:05

of secrecy around New Order, which

33:07

I thought was very beautiful. But

33:09

it was not my conscious

33:11

intention. But of

33:14

course, subconsciously, you know,

33:16

you are aware, you know, I knew

33:18

what it meant to put this sort

33:20

of translucent veil around them. As for

33:23

the veil of secrecy protecting the band

33:25

from their own album cover, they

33:27

swear they had no idea until they saw

33:29

the bleeding thing. I think they didn't believe

33:32

that I would actually make the cover. And

33:35

I saw them in a dressing room in

33:37

Cambridge after a gig, soon after the release

33:39

of Low Life. And as

33:41

I walked in the room, they collectively turned

33:43

on me and said, you fucking bastard. So

33:49

in the end, perhaps it's fair

33:52

to say that Low Life was

33:54

about demystification and remystification in equal

33:56

measure. And putting the drama

33:58

on the cover. have one

34:00

interesting consequence, Gillian Gilbet.

34:03

When we went on tour to

34:05

Japan, they actually thought Stephen was

34:07

the singer. He was like,

34:09

why am I having all this attention? That's

34:12

right. I mean, that was great because it's

34:14

the only time I've had any fan coverage

34:16

in Japan. You know, I got off the

34:18

plane, I think you're the singer. What?

34:22

Pictures on the front. I did

34:24

quite well. I was considering a career in male modelling for

34:26

a bit. So life represented a

34:29

whole world of firsts for New Order. To

34:31

some, those firsts might have looked like

34:34

compromises. But the rules that

34:36

governed New Order's operation were never exactly hard

34:38

and fast in the first place. You define

34:40

New Order by the things that they don't

34:42

do, rather than the things that they actually

34:44

do do. And it's kind of like, well,

34:47

we don't want our picture on the sleeve.

34:50

We don't want the single on the records. And

34:52

we just want to do whatever it is that

34:54

we want to do. Well, we don't do encores

34:56

except when we do do encores, which

34:59

is when we feel like it or

35:01

when the audience has been particularly

35:03

unpleasant towards us. Antagonism had always

35:05

been one of the driving forces

35:07

in this band. They couldn't help

35:09

it. It was in their punk

35:11

DNA. Another

35:20

great tradition of music is that you should

35:22

play your hit every night. And

35:24

we were kind of reluctant to do that,

35:27

particularly in Germany, where we did this tour

35:29

of Germany. Very early on, it was sort

35:31

of like late 1984, we'd written

35:33

Face Up, which is the last

35:35

track on lowlife. We thought it

35:37

was the best thing since sliced

35:39

bread. And the German people deserve

35:41

to hear it every night.

35:44

And I can remember at one point on the

35:46

German tour, the promoters had to put on the

35:48

posters because they put New Order,

35:51

Hitmeisters with Blue Monday, Blue

35:53

Montag, and then right underneath

35:55

it, may not actually perform

35:58

this song tonight. which

36:00

didn't really do much for Anglo-German

36:02

relations. Colin

36:14

Greenwood of Radiohead remembers attending a show

36:16

from around this time with a young

36:19

Tom York. And far

36:21

from feeling alienated by the band's antics,

36:24

they left inspired. Me and Tom went to see

36:26

them play lowlife. I think it was in 1984,

36:29

and I remember going to see that show, them

36:31

doing Perfect Kiss and subculture and stuff like that.

36:33

And then when we did band practice, Tom was

36:35

learning, like, all of the riffs and stuff, those

36:37

songs and, like, subculture and from

36:39

that album. So, yeah, it was a massive influence and

36:41

over a long time. Sure,

36:44

there may have been a couple of

36:46

compromises, but lowlife always felt like true

36:48

new order to the band who'd made

36:50

it. Their purest

36:52

statement yet. We were bloody-minded,

36:55

but we were on a path and lowlife

36:59

is, in some respects, it's

37:01

a culmination or a

37:03

progression. It's where you start off with

37:06

movement and it's kind of like... There's

37:08

a germ of an idea and then

37:10

the idea is pretty much formulated on

37:13

power, corruption and lies, and then it's

37:15

further refined and rocked

37:17

up a bit on lowlife. One

37:27

way of thinking about it is that

37:30

lowlife is a harmonious record, musically

37:32

with its considered blend of rock

37:35

and electronics, each present in

37:37

every one of its eight songs. Personally,

37:40

with tales of fun, but not

37:42

too much, at London's underground nightclubs.

37:45

And professionally, with a few allowances

37:47

for Quincy Jones and the ambitious

37:50

American label, while still holding on

37:52

to the art-rock essence of new

37:54

order. Harmony through and through. The

37:58

question was, how long could... Or

38:00

would that harmony last? We're

38:03

imbibing various substances, but it had not

38:05

got to the point where it was

38:07

affecting us too badly, but, you know,

38:09

you reach a point where the substances

38:11

start having a detrimental effect and then

38:13

you've got to stop really. Next

38:24

on transmissions. Excess

38:26

comes knocking. And New

38:28

Order's all-important fifth member is helpless

38:30

but to answer. There are many

38:33

pitfalls to the rock and roll touring

38:35

lifestyle. If you have a

38:37

capacity for or an interest in it

38:39

overindulging, then it's not really the thing

38:41

for you unless you've also got an

38:43

awful lot of willpower, which

38:46

I think Rob, God bless him, would be

38:48

the... If he was here now, I would

38:51

admit he didn't have very much willpower. So

38:53

the band must figure out how

38:55

to navigate choppy waters without their

38:57

guiding lights. It's

39:01

a bit like the Beatles falling apart

39:03

when Epstein died, you know. Their dad

39:05

was gone, you know, and they were

39:07

a little bit lost, yeah. Transmissions.

39:15

The definitive story of Joy Division

39:17

and New Order is a copper-nuzzle

39:19

production. It's presented by

39:21

me, Elizabeth Holker. Our series

39:23

producer is Frank Palmer. If

39:35

you've enjoyed this episode, please give us a

39:37

rating or review wherever you listen to your

39:39

podcasts.