0:00

Did you know that after a

0:02

traumatic event our brains initially

0:04

store fear memories as broad

0:06

associations but over time they

0:08

become specific episodic memories? However

0:10

individuals with high anxiety can

0:12

struggle with this integration leading

0:14

to like a persistent fear

0:16

and increased risk for PTSD

0:18

and so we want to look

0:21

today at why do some

0:23

individuals recover from trauma while

0:25

others develop PTSD? We're going to

0:27

look at some new research

0:29

that shows the answer maybe

0:31

in how our brains encode

0:33

fear and process memories. Because

0:35

resilience isn't just a psychological

0:38

concept, it's really deeply tied

0:40

to how our brain and

0:42

our body interact to adapt

0:44

to stressors, challenges, social demands.

0:46

This episode dives into recent breakthroughs

0:48

in PTSD research and the evolving

0:50

understanding of fear memories, important new

0:53

discoveries in brain areas for emotional

0:55

processing, and then how these two

0:57

really intersect. We're joined again by

1:00

Matt Bush, founder of Next Level

1:02

Neuro and a lead educator in

1:04

the NeuroSemitic Intelligence Course, to really

1:06

explore how these insights impact the tools

1:08

and the strategies we can use in

1:10

the work of trauma resolution. Welcome

1:16

to Trauma Rewired, the podcast that

1:18

teaches you about your nervous system,

1:20

how trauma lives in the body,

1:23

and what you can do to

1:25

heal. I'm your co-host, Elizabeth Kristoff,

1:27

founder of Brainbased.com, an online community

1:29

that uses applied neurology and somatics

1:31

for resilience, emotional processing, and behavior

1:33

change. And I'm also the founder

1:35

of the Neurosomatic Intelligence Coaching Certification,

1:37

which is an ICF-accredited certification for

1:39

coaches, therapist and practitioners to bring...

1:41

transformation to clients and bridge the

1:43

gap from the mind to the

1:45

body by working with the nervous system.

1:48

And I'm your co-host Jennifer Wallace.

1:50

I'm a neurosomatic psychedelic preparation and

1:52

integration guide and I bring your

1:54

nervous system into your peak somatic

1:56

experiences and I'm also an educator

1:58

at the neurosomatic and certification.

2:00

And Matt, I'm so excited to have

2:02

you here. This is a topic that

2:04

you actually came to us with, so

2:06

I'm excited to hear like why this

2:08

was important to you and how this

2:10

kind of came about that you wanted

2:13

to record on PTSD. Yeah, thanks for having

2:15

me back. I'm excited to be here again.

2:17

I think at this point I've lost count

2:19

of the number of episodes I've been able

2:21

to be on with you too, but I love

2:23

being here. This topic was really interesting

2:26

to me because it aligns with

2:28

what we teach in NSI, for

2:30

one, about how the brain

2:32

actually organizes and then creates

2:35

a lot of the symptoms

2:37

that we find ourselves experiencing

2:39

or clients presenting with as

2:41

what we call outputs, basically

2:44

protective mechanisms or action

2:46

signals that are trying to

2:48

get our attention. And the study

2:50

that we're going to talk about in

2:52

the topic today kind of goes into

2:55

how that happens, why PTSD develops in

2:57

some, but not others, and just overlaps

2:59

really nicely with a lot of the

3:01

topics that are in this season of

3:04

the podcast. So when I came across

3:06

the research, it's just published in October

3:08

of 2024. So just a month ago

3:10

at the time of our recording

3:12

today, kind of mind blowing

3:14

about how specifically they can

3:16

now identify. the mechanisms of

3:18

PTSD formation in many cases,

3:21

and the brain areas that

3:23

are involved are specifically some

3:25

that we've talked about on

3:27

the podcast and that are

3:29

targeted with our neuro training

3:31

tools. So it just seemed to

3:33

be a great intersection to explore

3:35

this kind of stuff. Do you want

3:38

to give us like a high level

3:40

overview of the research and what kind

3:42

of came up for you as you

3:44

were looking through it? In reading

3:46

this research, this was published in

3:48

October, and the idea behind the

3:51

research is to discover why some

3:53

people develop PTSD after a traumatic

3:55

experience or a fear-based

3:57

experience while other people do

3:59

not. And what they discovered

4:02

in looking through the

4:04

individuals that were surveyed

4:06

for the research is that

4:08

it did not have very

4:10

much to do with the

4:12

type of experience that it

4:15

was, the timing of when

4:17

it was experienced, the

4:19

intensity of that experience,

4:21

nor the physical or emotional

4:23

injury or kind of ongoing

4:25

consequences, right? anything that had

4:28

actually happened. And what they

4:30

discovered is that the difference

4:32

between those who do and

4:34

those who don't develop is

4:36

actually something that is in the brain.

4:38

It's not the event, it's the nervous

4:40

system of the individual. And so

4:43

the way they describe it is

4:45

they say that a fear memory,

4:47

which may eventually turn into something

4:49

like PTSD, fear memories start as

4:52

very broad associations. Like think of

4:54

a blanket statement in a conversation

4:56

or a gross oversimplification of an

4:59

emotion. Like if someone goes, you

5:01

know, why are you angry? You

5:03

might think, I'm not angry, I'm

5:05

frustrated, you know, I'm not angry,

5:07

I'm overwhelmed. I'm not angry, I'm

5:10

disappointed. And it's a you. in

5:12

that situation, you know, as just as

5:14

an example, there may be more nuance.

5:16

But to the person on the outside,

5:18

they're kind of making a blanket statement

5:21

of, you kind of look angry, right?

5:23

So when we go through these experiences,

5:25

our brain is like, I'm experiencing

5:28

a response of fear. And at

5:30

first, these fear memories and fear

5:32

associations are very broad. But what

5:34

happens over time... is that these

5:36

associations then evolve

5:38

into specific time-based

5:40

memories. They're located

5:43

at a specific point in time,

5:45

having to do with a specific

5:47

experience. So another

5:49

way to say that is

5:52

our brain basically prunes away

5:54

or discards the generalized fear

5:56

response in preference to

5:58

the more specific. fear of

6:01

this particular event or

6:03

type of stimulus. So what

6:05

they found actually happens in

6:07

the brain and nervous system

6:09

is that people who don't

6:12

have as much practice

6:14

to control in their

6:16

hippocampus, which is the memory

6:18

formation center. They don't do as

6:21

good of a job into isolating

6:23

and making these memories really time

6:26

specific. So they stay more general

6:28

and they stay more broad. And

6:30

now the language they use in

6:32

the article is that people

6:35

with anxiety struggle to form

6:37

these episodic memories. They retain

6:39

more of the broad fear

6:41

response, the broad associations. And

6:44

the thing about holding on to

6:46

a broad association is that means

6:48

that it's more likely to be

6:50

triggered by various types of situations

6:53

or sensory input, right? The

6:55

more specific it is, the more isolated

6:57

it is in the future. So we

6:59

may talk about that a little bit more

7:01

as we go through, but individuals,

7:04

they say with anxiety. In the

7:06

podcast, I want to change that just

7:09

a little bit because we talk

7:11

about anxiety as another output,

7:13

right? So it's not that someone who

7:15

has a label of anxiety is

7:17

going to be poor at creating

7:20

these episodic memories. The way I

7:22

read this is to say individuals

7:24

who either are already under

7:26

high threat and experiencing

7:28

anxiety as an output or

7:31

individuals who have been conditioned

7:33

to perceive more threat. So that

7:36

would include CPTS. as well as

7:38

neurodivergence in some cases

7:40

or other ongoing chronic

7:42

threat conditions, when the brain

7:44

perceives more threat all the

7:46

time, the hippocampus kind of gets

7:49

stuck in survival mode along with

7:51

a lot of the rest of

7:53

the brain, and it's not as

7:55

good at creating these episodic memories.

7:57

So the two things that are

7:59

required. And then I'll stop talking because

8:01

I want to hear what you two have

8:03

to say about this. The two

8:05

things that are required to change

8:08

a broad fear-based memory into a

8:10

specific episodic memory are really good

8:12

activation in this hippocampus and

8:14

really good activation in the

8:17

prefrontal cortex, specifically the dorsal

8:19

lateral prefrontal cortex. And

8:21

we know those are two areas

8:23

that are often underactive, underperforming when

8:25

someone is in any type of

8:28

chronic threat. or CPTS type of

8:30

a situation. So that's where we

8:32

start the conversation. Yeah,

8:34

I definitely want to dive

8:36

a little more into specifically

8:38

how this relates to CPTS,

8:40

but kind of want to

8:42

broadly summarize and highlight some

8:44

of these key brain areas

8:46

for people, just as they're

8:48

taking this in. So initially

8:50

a fear memory starts as

8:52

this broad generalized association, and

8:54

then later it becomes episodic

8:56

tied to a specific event.

8:58

and that involves the hippocampus initially

9:00

in the early stages and

9:03

then the prefrontal cortex

9:05

specifically the dorsal prefrontal

9:07

cortex later integrates the

9:09

event into more of a

9:12

coherent sequence. And so our

9:14

prefrontal cortex, dorsal lateral prefrontal

9:16

cortex, is what really helps

9:18

us to organize and shift

9:20

the memory from that broad

9:23

associative fear response into these

9:25

time-linked memories. And that's really

9:27

important for not having that

9:29

overactivity, that fear response occurring

9:31

all of the time. So

9:34

it's essentially a regulator for

9:36

our emotional responses. It's communicating

9:38

with the amygdala and other

9:40

emotional processing regions. And

9:42

that is really important for our

9:45

ability to reframe or reduce

9:47

the emotional intensity of memories.

9:49

And it helps our cognitive

9:51

processing and it helps us

9:54

recover from these traumatic events.

9:56

So if we have folks with

9:58

PTSD with CP. with heightened

10:00

anxiety, there's often a reduced activity

10:03

shown in the dorsal lateral prefrontal

10:05

cortex, and then there's going to

10:07

be difficulty organizing traumatic memories and

10:10

distinguishing between past threats and present

10:12

threats, and then you have this

10:15

perpetual fear response that's happening. So

10:17

when we can work with our

10:19

dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex to support

10:22

its function, that's going to help

10:24

with resilience. because it allows us

10:26

to reinterpret and integrate these different

10:29

traumatic experiences into our broader life

10:31

narrative. So I really want to

10:33

talk about memory a little bit,

10:36

how our brain is impacted through

10:38

our development. The brain structures are

10:41

impacted through our development through these

10:43

spirit responses and how we really

10:45

do develop in a training ground

10:48

when we are growing up. And

10:50

so a huge facet of trauma

10:52

is really the inability to integrate

10:55

memories and experiences. And so when

10:57

I hear you talking about this

11:00

more broad fear memory, you know,

11:02

that just feels so relative because

11:04

I hear... even in my own

11:07

story, how I would feel really

11:09

stuck in repeating patterns, repeating emotional

11:11

experiences, or repeating trauma bonds, relational

11:14

patterns. And so I love this

11:16

new kind of reframe that we're

11:18

going into. And for me, what

11:21

really comes to mine is one

11:23

of the episodes that Elizabeth and

11:26

I did before on memory, because

11:28

what we're talking about is memories,

11:30

trauma memories, not getting stored in

11:33

a particular way, and then these

11:35

experiences affect us in our present

11:37

day and on a daily basis,

11:40

and it can be really immobilizing

11:42

us. They can be ways that

11:44

we don't take action or that

11:47

we protect ourselves, and a lot

11:49

of this has to do with

11:52

the way that our hormones are

11:54

experienced in the stress response. And

11:56

as we are going through our

11:59

development... stages as a young child

12:01

or as an adolescent, what we're

12:03

doing is basically training our nervous

12:06

systems for how we are going

12:08

to survive in the world, in

12:11

our relationships, not just physically but

12:13

also socially. And memories don't exist

12:15

in an immature hippocampus. And in

12:18

my own personal experience, I have

12:20

PTSD on top of CPTS. There

12:22

are things that I do really remember

12:24

in my stories. and they're overlapping

12:26

threads because these adverse experiences,

12:28

they can happen to us

12:30

all through our development and

12:32

to our adulthood and even

12:34

into our lives right now. I

12:37

want to tease out one quick thing that

12:39

Jen said there, that's really important

12:41

in the first part of what

12:43

she was saying is that when

12:45

we're in high threat or kind

12:47

of stuck in survival mode, the

12:49

hippocampus really struggles. to record episodic

12:51

memories and the factual

12:54

details of anything, any

12:56

events or situations that

12:58

have happened. Instead, it records

13:01

more of the emotional memories.

13:03

It records the fear. It

13:05

records the freeze, the anger,

13:07

all of those things that come

13:09

along with. And so the conditioning of

13:12

the hippo campus is what we're

13:14

going to get into when we

13:16

talk about CPTS. If someone

13:18

has been in a survival state

13:21

for a long time, their hippocampus

13:23

will have been largely conditioned

13:25

to record more emotion-based

13:27

memory, not as much

13:30

episodic and factual-based memory.

13:32

That's a really huge

13:34

point of knowledge to understand where

13:36

we're going with the rest of

13:39

the podcast, but also when we

13:41

start to talk about what can I

13:43

do about it. How can I

13:45

train my prefrontal cortex? How

13:48

can I get my hippocampus

13:50

to rewire and re-educate on

13:52

these memories? Understanding

13:54

that is going to be one of

13:56

the big keys. I think as we

13:59

dive into all... this, especially in

14:01

terms of like hippocample development, we

14:03

want to look a little bit

14:06

at the differences between CPTS and

14:08

PTSD, just to kind of keep

14:10

parceling these apart because they

14:12

can overlap, certainly, like Jen

14:14

was talking about, have PTSD

14:17

from some acute incidences, and

14:19

I also have complex trauma

14:21

from more prolonged stress, and

14:23

it does impact our brain

14:25

development and our nervous system

14:27

differently. When we're talking about PTSD,

14:30

that's usually something that's triggered

14:32

by experiencing or witnessing a

14:34

singular traumatic event, like a

14:36

natural disaster, an accident, an

14:39

assault, maybe a combat event, and

14:41

the hallmark of PTSD is that

14:43

the trauma is typically acute. It's

14:46

one or a few discrete incidences.

14:48

and the nervous system's response becomes

14:50

stuck in a hypervigilant or dysregulated

14:52

state around that event. So you

14:55

can have intrusive memories or flashbacks

14:57

of that particular event. You can

14:59

avoid reminders or triggers associated

15:02

with that trauma. You might

15:04

become hypervigilant or have an

15:06

exaggerated startle response. There's some

15:08

emotional numbness that comes with

15:10

that sleep disturbances. These symptoms

15:12

or outputs definitely overlap with

15:14

complex trauma, but complex trauma

15:17

is usually referring to chronic

15:19

exposure to trauma. It's occurring

15:21

over an extended period of

15:23

time. A lot of times

15:26

that's in our childhood, but

15:28

it doesn't have to be.

15:30

And it's this ongoing repeated

15:32

interpersonal trauma or interpersonal abuse

15:34

neglect. living and being

15:37

conditioned by emotionally unsafe

15:39

environments, that really disrupts

15:41

our emotional neurological development.

15:43

So unlike PTSD, CPTS

15:46

is not about one

15:48

specific incident, but prolonged,

15:50

and it's almost always

15:52

relational, having to do

15:54

with harm or lack

15:57

of support, safety, and

15:59

atonement. often inflicted by caregivers

16:01

or perhaps authority figures and

16:03

it leaves a really deep

16:06

imprint, especially on our social

16:08

brain, social nervous system, our

16:10

ability to connect with others. So

16:12

you might experience a lot of

16:14

emotional dysregulation, deep negative

16:17

self-perception, a very heightened

16:19

shame response, difficulty with

16:21

trust and boundaries and

16:24

relationships, having a chronic

16:26

dissociation response, feeling disconnected

16:28

from yourself. a lot of

16:30

deeply somatic symptoms like chronic

16:33

pain, gastrointestinal issues, chronic fatigue,

16:35

and this overall persistent sense

16:38

of danger, even when you're

16:40

in safe environments or safe

16:43

relationships. And again, these disruptions

16:45

lead to a nervous system

16:48

that is in a chronic

16:50

or perpetually dysregulated state. You

16:52

have the hyperarousal. or you

16:54

can have chronic freeze or

16:57

shut down. And it's more

16:59

triggered by relational stress than

17:01

acute environmental triggers. So when

17:04

we're talking about memory consolidation,

17:06

I think that's where some

17:08

of this interventions get a

17:10

little complex when you're addressing

17:12

complex trauma because you

17:15

have some interventions like

17:17

EMDR that work really well

17:19

for an acute incident like

17:21

PTSD, like PTSD. They do

17:23

not have the same success

17:26

rate when you're working with

17:28

CPTS because there's just so

17:30

many events that it's the

17:32

environment that someone is living

17:34

in and being shaped by.

17:37

And that's where I think

17:39

it becomes really important to

17:41

have ongoing repattering this daily

17:43

training of working with the

17:45

nervous system, processing emotions, cultivating

17:48

safe relationships, because there's a whole

17:50

time span. of development and patterning

17:52

that we're looking at. But I

17:54

also think that this research on

17:57

PTSD is important to look at

17:59

here. Because we can see

18:01

what does make someone more resilient

18:03

to developing PTSD, look at the

18:06

brain areas that are really important

18:08

and think about how that could

18:10

overlap to rehabilitate CPTS as well.

18:12

If you're a practitioner, therapist,

18:14

coach, or trainer who's been listening

18:17

to trauma rewired and you're interested

18:19

in working more with the nervous

18:21

system, I would highly recommend you

18:24

check out the neurosomatic intelligence

18:26

certification. It's now open for

18:28

enrollment and the NSI certification

18:30

is a 12-week program that

18:32

takes practitioners on a journey

18:35

of learning about the nervous system,

18:37

about how it integrates with

18:40

thematics, and how you can

18:42

use regulation tools, sensory inputs,

18:44

as well as vision, vestibular,

18:47

interoception, exercises, and belief

18:49

and mindset tools. to help

18:51

your clients adapt and retrain

18:54

through previous trauma, somatic healing,

18:56

and nervous system regulation. Check

18:58

it out at neurosomatic

19:01

intelligence.com. We'd love to see you

19:03

there. Yeah, so it's really interesting to

19:05

look at this current research as

19:07

well as what we know about

19:09

PTSD and what happens in the

19:11

brain and how that does relate

19:13

to CPTS. There is some overlap.

19:16

So the big areas that we

19:18

generally talk about are the amygdala

19:20

for one, right? Our threat

19:22

detection area, the hippocampus with how

19:25

it forms memories and performs memory

19:27

recall, and the prefrontal cortex.

19:29

And there's both the dorsal lateral

19:32

prefrontal cortex. That's kind of

19:34

like the top outside area

19:36

of the frontal lobe. In a very

19:38

simplified way, you can think that

19:41

that responds to the external world

19:43

and external events and people in

19:45

relationships. And then there's also what's

19:48

called the ventromedial prefrontal

19:50

cortex. There's just like lower inside

19:52

part of the frontal lobe. And that

19:54

has a lot to do in a

19:56

very general sense with thoughts and feelings

19:59

and associations about. me or about

20:01

you personally as an individual. So

20:04

those are the big areas

20:06

of overlap and what

20:08

we know from talking about

20:10

developmental trauma and developmental

20:12

time periods is that when

20:14

those survival brain areas

20:16

especially the amygdala in the

20:18

hippocampus are conditioned

20:21

to be

20:23

hyper -vigilant or hyper -aware

20:25

if they're in their survival

20:27

mode they're more likely

20:29

to see an experience threatening

20:31

situations or threatening relationships

20:33

from multiple angles multiple

20:35

vectors more often. So

20:38

what this study does

20:40

in looking at PTSD

20:42

first is it

20:44

allows us to see

20:46

that the ongoing state

20:48

of brain function

20:50

can contribute to

20:53

the likelihood of

20:55

someone developing PTSD from

20:58

a single or

21:00

an acute event that happens

21:02

okay so again it doesn't have

21:04

to do so much with

21:06

the event itself but what's the

21:08

state of their brain when

21:10

the event occurs or in the

21:12

time period after the event

21:14

occurs and where the overlap is is

21:16

that kind of what Elizabeth just

21:18

said is that CPTS basically rewires our

21:20

brain along the way complex trauma

21:22

occurring over a longer period of

21:25

time with repeated events or

21:27

situations that we're put into

21:29

that are emotionally unsafe

21:31

cause this rewiring to happen and

21:33

a lot of the time

21:35

CPTS does occur during childhood

21:37

and that's when the conditioning

21:39

happens but it doesn't have

21:41

to someone could go through

21:43

a long -term relational situation

21:45

whether that be a personal

21:47

relationship or a work relationship

21:50

or other in their 30s

21:52

or in their 40s that

21:54

could cause CPTS but eventually what

21:56

causes CPTS to occur

21:58

and this is a bit

22:00

of an over statement, but just

22:02

simplifying, is that reconditioning of the

22:04

brain areas based on the relational

22:07

situation, of course, it's causing

22:09

them to be stuck in survival

22:12

mode. It's rewiring their perspective

22:14

on the world, how they take in sensory

22:16

information, and then what they

22:19

perceive and what they do with it.

22:21

This study is kind of

22:23

saying PTSD is essentially the

22:25

same thing, as the brain has

22:27

been rewired or conditioned. that now

22:29

we see that PTSD also

22:31

comes from the same brain changes,

22:33

not from the external event.

22:36

And there are so many different

22:38

available therapies for us now.

22:40

Elizabeth was kind of talking

22:42

about the difference between acute

22:44

and chronic. And when I

22:46

think about my experiences,

22:49

how I'm talking about the PTSD

22:51

stacked on the complex trauma, I

22:53

think of like sexual. offenses and

22:55

body boundary violations, right? That would

22:58

be a PTSD where I can

23:00

see where maybe if I had

23:02

this isolated violent sexual experience, I

23:05

could go to some therapy, maybe

23:07

do some MDR where some of

23:09

these alternate therapies are even cognitive

23:12

behavioral therapy might be good in

23:14

the resolution of that, but because

23:17

of this fear-based broader memory that

23:19

I have. and the adverse experience

23:21

of sexual abuse and violence,

23:23

I can see how it

23:26

is not easy for me

23:28

to isolate an experience that

23:30

I remember say in the

23:32

sex trafficking experience

23:34

of mine or any. There are several

23:36

experiences in my 20s that I could

23:39

highlight right now, like why I

23:41

can't just heal that in an isolated

23:43

space. I have to go into how

23:45

my broader memory is affected and this

23:48

broader fear memory, right? And so for

23:50

me, NSI, you know, obviously hugely important

23:52

we're going to get to that, especially

23:55

in these brain areas, but people

23:57

like and me are drawn to more

23:59

peaks. traumatic experiences, right? That's the

24:01

work that I do in psychedelic

24:04

therapy. And so, but I really

24:06

do believe that some of these

24:08

peak somatic experiences can be really

24:10

overwhelming due to disrupted memory integration.

24:13

And, you know, it's been confirmed

24:15

by neuroscientic research that

24:17

trauma is often remembered through

24:19

behavioral enactments and that traumatized

24:21

people are frequently unable to

24:23

even speak about their experiences,

24:25

but can be compelled to

24:27

reenact them. and often remaining

24:29

unaware of like really how

24:31

their behavior is really speaking

24:33

and what it is really

24:35

saying and so physical movements

24:37

and sensations these automatic responses

24:39

and involuntary movements they can

24:42

really come up in a

24:44

peak somatic experience. It's really characteristic

24:46

of trauma, that traumatic memories may

24:48

also be able to take the

24:50

form of unconscious acting out behaviors

24:53

and then the need to resolve

24:55

traumatic experiences can fuel repetitive and

24:57

compulsive actions and behaviors. And so

24:59

people are drawn to these big

25:02

peak somatic experiences, but one of

25:04

the huge factors that I see

25:06

here as an issue is dissociation,

25:08

right? We know dissociation is a

25:10

huge factor of complex post-traumatic

25:13

stress, but Why wouldn't it also

25:15

be a factor in PTSD, right?

25:17

When you're in a situation that

25:19

is acute, you would also want

25:22

to leave your body. And so

25:24

going into these experiences and not

25:26

having a continuum of consciousness, it

25:28

can be a barrier when we can't

25:30

feel our bodies, when we can't feel

25:32

and hear the sensations of our bodies.

25:35

So like that lack of embodiment

25:37

and like presence is really

25:39

a component of healing. and being

25:42

in these peak somatic experiences definition.

25:44

So for us, the three of

25:46

us, we define peak somatic experiences

25:48

as a method of releasing stored

25:50

survival energy that's bound in the

25:52

body after a trauma, releasing the

25:54

emotions that come with it by

25:56

relying on the body's natural intelligence

25:58

to relieve it. But if I

26:01

can't hear my body's natural intelligence,

26:03

I'm not going to be able

26:05

to relieve the trauma that's in

26:07

my body. And so a question

26:10

that comes up is like, why

26:12

are some individuals in this space

26:14

is able to feel the healing

26:16

and why others would be... traumatized

26:19

by these experiences. And for me,

26:21

that really does come down in

26:23

my experience to what I've witnessed

26:25

into dissociation and the components of

26:28

complex traumatic stress or PTSD, those

26:30

brain areas that really do keep

26:32

us disconnected and keep us cut

26:34

off from the body and not

26:37

able to experience the resilience that

26:39

happens from a mind body soul

26:41

connection. Yeah, when I'm talking with

26:43

clients about that. or similar questions.

26:46

I typically use a metaphor and

26:48

go, you've been working on this

26:50

for some time. It's kind of

26:52

like you're, you've been training to

26:55

run a marathon. Like maybe you

26:57

decided you wanted to run a

26:59

marathon, you've signed up for the

27:01

race, you've been training for it,

27:04

because often they've been doing somatic

27:06

work, they may be doing therapy

27:08

or other techniques. And then it's

27:10

like now that it's the day

27:13

of the race, you got to

27:15

the marathon, but you found out

27:17

you had to park like five

27:19

miles away from the starting line.

27:22

So now you're in this situation

27:24

where you're looking at the day

27:26

overall, and you're going, not only

27:28

do I have to run 26

27:31

miles, I gotta walk five miles

27:33

back. And sometimes what happens is

27:35

that when someone is in... a

27:37

dissociation or a loop of CPCS

27:40

symptoms, when they do come up

27:42

to the surface and cognitively have

27:44

that awareness of like, oh crap,

27:46

I'm dissociated right now. It's like

27:49

recognizing they're five miles away from

27:51

the starting line. And it's sometimes,

27:53

not always, but sometimes it's like

27:55

this overwhelming sense of, I'm so

27:58

far back, I don't know what

28:00

to do. Or not. that I'm

28:02

aware of my body, even that

28:04

little bit of awareness when I

28:07

pick up to the surface and

28:09

find my body, creates another wave

28:11

of threat. Because what do I

28:13

do with that information? Where does

28:16

that fit in the big picture?

28:18

Like it engages all types of

28:20

questions in the cognitive brain. And

28:22

so it can often create another

28:25

negative loop or kind of a

28:27

tailspin feeling where they go even

28:29

deeper into the dissociation again. So

28:31

I think what is ultimately required,

28:34

and this is a very broad

28:36

statement, but ultimately required to kind

28:38

of move out of those loops

28:40

and move past into a place

28:43

where we can have a healthy

28:45

experience of somatic expression, is often

28:47

found in getting some of these

28:49

brain areas a little bit more

28:52

integrated and more healthy. I don't

28:54

mean healthy, unhealthy as in a

28:56

disease state, but in a functional

28:58

way. So we improve the hippocampus

29:01

and the prefrontal cortex primarily by

29:03

connecting them with other brain areas

29:05

that feed them good activation and

29:07

accurate sensory information. So we often

29:10

start with sensory and regulation tools.

29:12

We do daily practice of neuro

29:14

and as much as possible we

29:16

create a safe environment that supports

29:19

the work that someone is going

29:21

through. And we'll never be able

29:23

to eliminate all possible triggers or

29:25

all possible relationships, but creating as

29:28

much as we can have a

29:30

safe space to be able to

29:32

slowly reintegrate those brain areas and

29:34

essentially re-educate them to condition them

29:37

back to a more functional level

29:39

of connection with the rest of

29:41

the brain. I think that's so

29:43

important because if we're looking at

29:46

how... This memory integration is impaired

29:48

and the dissociation like Jen was

29:50

talking about the lack of movement

29:52

and emotional processing going into these

29:55

big healing experiences can be really

29:57

difficult if we haven't already started

29:59

to. create change in the way that

30:02

we integrate and consolidate memories,

30:04

our ability to process them,

30:06

our ability to emotionally regulate.

30:08

There's just so much that can

30:10

be done in preparation and for

30:12

integration around that. And that kind

30:14

of leads me to another study

30:16

that we were looking at as

30:19

well in terms of the cerebellum's

30:21

role in emotional processing and cognitive

30:23

function that I think could really

30:25

overlap here with some of that

30:27

somatic experience and our ability to

30:29

integrate and process memories. Do you

30:31

want to talk a little bit

30:33

about that article Matt? Yeah, absolutely.

30:35

So another newer research article just

30:37

published in the fall of 2024

30:39

really expands our understanding of

30:42

what the cerebellum does. One of

30:44

the coolest things about this research

30:46

and it's really fun anytime you

30:48

find research that supports something that

30:51

you've already been proposing and in

30:53

applied neurology We've known what the

30:56

cerebellum does in regards to movement

30:58

and we've been suggesting through NSI

31:00

and on the podcast that we think

31:02

the cerebellum is involved in

31:04

regulating emotional outputs and social

31:06

outputs and this article seems

31:09

to point directly to that

31:11

and go yup That's exactly

31:13

how it works. So for a long time,

31:15

the basic responsibilities of cerebellum

31:18

were known to be

31:20

involved with controlling motor

31:22

function, movement, right? Making sure

31:24

that muscles balance with other muscles,

31:27

the joints move correctly through smooth

31:29

actions. So we're not robotic in

31:31

the way that we move. The

31:34

cerebellum also helps maintain our

31:36

balance and our coordination. functions to

31:38

regulate the speed of our movement,

31:41

all of these kinds of things.

31:43

And in the last several years, there

31:45

has been some research on how the

31:47

cerebellum also has an impact on cognitive

31:49

abilities. In the way this was

31:51

described, we should have said this with the

31:54

movement section, let's take one step back

31:56

here, but the way that the cerebellum

31:58

coordinates all those most... functions is

32:00

essentially by eliminating all unwanted

32:03

movements. And in recent years,

32:05

as our understanding expanded to

32:07

include cognitive abilities, the statement

32:09

was basically adopted that the

32:11

cerebellum helps to eliminate unwanted

32:14

thoughts. So it keeps our

32:16

cognitive brain on track. It

32:18

helps with our concentration, it

32:20

eliminates distractions, because those are

32:23

the unwanted cognitive thoughts. Then

32:25

this recent research from the

32:27

fall it points to the

32:29

same functions for emotional and

32:31

social functioning So they now

32:34

would say essentially the cerebellum

32:36

helps to eliminate or control

32:38

unwanted emotions or non-helpful non-serving

32:40

emotions and it also helps

32:42

to regulate social understanding and

32:45

social behaviors so This is

32:47

really interesting because the more

32:49

that we learn about this

32:51

brain area the more we

32:54

recognize that it is a

32:56

Center or a hub of

32:58

integration of all the different

33:00

sensory inputs we receive and

33:02

then keeping us on track

33:05

keeping us focus to be

33:07

able to do the things

33:09

or respond in the ways

33:11

that we want to while

33:13

not Accidentally doing the things

33:16

that we don't want to

33:18

I'm always so fascinated by

33:20

the role of the cerebral

33:22

and emotional regulation and also

33:25

social processing and relieving social

33:27

stress because the more I

33:29

work with my own body

33:31

and with clients, the more

33:33

I seem... Movement isn't just

33:36

important in like our ability

33:38

to walk well or execute

33:40

big movements well, but there's

33:42

also this deep movement that

33:44

comes with emotional processing and

33:47

emotional regulation. There's an interplay

33:49

between our diaphragm and our

33:51

vocal chords and the intrinsic

33:53

muscles of the core and

33:56

these things also have to

33:58

be coordinated and mobile. the

34:00

inner play between these to be

34:02

able to vocalize, to be

34:04

able to express, like emotional

34:06

expression is a somatic experience,

34:08

and there is movement involved,

34:11

there's vocalization involved, our vocals

34:13

have to be supported by

34:15

our breath, and all of

34:17

this tends to get locked

34:19

up and restricted, especially with

34:21

chronic freeze and chronic dissociation.

34:23

And I have really found,

34:25

even in my own vocal

34:27

work and training, if I

34:30

can pair that with like...

34:32

real neurosomatic tools that increase

34:34

fuel and activation to my

34:36

cerebellum coordinated intentional nonlinear movements

34:38

I get different results in

34:40

my ability to be able to

34:43

to vocalize and express and

34:45

coordinate these movements and I'm

34:47

priming my nervous system for

34:49

emotional processing and I can

34:52

have a very different experience

34:54

in those emotional processing sessions

34:56

where I don't freeze and lock up

34:58

my body is functioning well and there's

35:01

this, I don't know how to describe

35:03

it other than this really well

35:05

coordinated interplay happening that allows for

35:08

that expression to be different. So

35:10

beyond just the regulation and like

35:12

the inhibition of unwanted emotions, I

35:15

do also think it has a

35:17

big role in our ability to

35:19

express and emotionally regulate that way

35:22

as well. I completely

35:24

echo you on the cerebellum training.

35:26

And it does it. It's so

35:28

fascinating the way it does have

35:30

an interplay with emotions. And I

35:32

think you just highlighted so clearly

35:34

why movement and coordination of movement

35:36

are so important for being able

35:38

to have a productive somatic experience,

35:40

right? And being able to integrate

35:42

the experience of our healing on

35:44

top of what we know. And

35:46

that's kind of what I was

35:48

saying about embodying truth before. There's

35:50

a truth that I know from

35:52

just the loops that play in

35:54

my head from these experiences, right?

35:56

There's a false truth. There's a

35:58

false narrative. It's protective. tags are

36:00

protective. But what we're talking about

36:03

here is being able to rewire

36:05

that and feel a new truth

36:07

that comes in and through the

36:09

body as well. And I think

36:12

you've just really highlighted that beautifully.

36:14

It's very important that we do

36:16

the training on a daily basis,

36:18

the connections to our bodies that

36:21

we do know when we're bracing

36:23

so that we know that we've

36:25

also released the bracing. How do

36:27

we know when we're releasing if

36:30

we don't know when we're also

36:32

contracting? And so there's so many...

36:34

polarities that come into healing versus

36:36

the traumatic experience that could have

36:39

been encoded into the body. So

36:41

this is really interesting talking about

36:43

movement and coordination of movement, producing

36:45

good somatic experiences. I want to

36:48

expand that a little bit and

36:50

have us talk about for a

36:52

second how these two articles actually

36:54

play off of one another. There's

36:57

some really good interplay because I

36:59

actually think when you combine these,

37:01

it indicates that somatic movement practices

37:04

can actually help. Memory consolidation, especially

37:06

for people who have been through

37:08

trauma. So think of it like

37:10

this. If the cerebellum has a

37:13

role in coordinating and regulating movement,

37:15

carbonive thoughts, concentration, emotional regulation, all

37:17

of these things, the more that

37:19

we do healthy movement practices, and

37:22

including somatic movements, okay, the more

37:24

trained the cerebellum will be to

37:26

do its job correctly in a

37:28

functional way. which allows us when

37:31

we start to look at the

37:33

emotional memory side of it tying

37:35

in the hippocampus and the prefrontal

37:37

cortex, the cerebellum is going to

37:40

play a role in helping us

37:42

to eliminate unwanted emotional memories. Okay,

37:44

so it kind of is going

37:46

to take a look. And this

37:49

happens on a non-cognitive level. So

37:51

just for the colloquial language, you

37:53

can consider this kind of part

37:55

of your subconscious brain function. But

37:58

imagine the cerebellum is looking at

38:00

an emotional memory. that has been

38:02

recorded by the hippocampus is very

38:05

broad. Like everything is scary, everything

38:07

is dangerous, everything is threatening. The

38:09

cerebellum is gonna look at that

38:11

and go, wait a second, that's

38:14

way too big. You actually experienced

38:16

one or just a few traumatic

38:18

events that created this PTSD. We

38:20

need to pair down that memory

38:23

so that it doesn't sit in

38:25

your brain as this blanket statement

38:27

that applies to all of these

38:29

different situations. We need to make

38:32

it more targeted, more episodic, more

38:34

time-oriented, so that it really only

38:36

applies to the event when it

38:38

occurred. That's the cerebellum's way of

38:41

checking and ensuring accuracy of the

38:43

emotional memories that are encoded. But

38:45

the cerebellum can't do that if

38:47

it's not functioning at a really

38:50

high level. And so one of

38:52

the ways we can train the

38:54

cerebellum is by doing good movement

38:56

practice, good somatic practices. good cerebellar

38:59

training on top of the somatic

39:01

work that we utilize. Okay, so

39:03

it kind of creates a roadmap

39:05

for neurosomatic practitioners to help their

39:08

clients and go, yeah, we need

39:10

sensory tools, we need somatic tools,

39:12

but we also need coordination tools

39:15

in movement so that the body

39:17

can start to release some of

39:19

the somatic trauma that it's holding.

39:21

Most importantly, I think, so the

39:24

cerebellum can be trained to help

39:26

us reconfigure and re-educate how these

39:28

memories need to be stored. I

39:30

find that so true in my

39:33

own experience, like having these practices

39:35

for cerebello training makes such a

39:37

difference in how I'm moving through

39:39

the world. And one of the

39:42

neatest things about the study that,

39:44

as you said, points to a

39:46

lot of the stuff we've already

39:48

been talking about in NSI, was

39:51

the cerebellum's influence on social. Stress

39:53

and how better cerebral or function

39:55

helped individuals to navigate and recover

39:57

from social stress at a higher...

40:00

level and when we're talking

40:02

about CPTS we want to

40:04

remember this is such a

40:07

relational wound and so much

40:09

of the stress response is

40:11

happening in relationship and social

40:14

situations and so when we have

40:16

the impairments that come from

40:18

either the developmental trauma

40:21

or the later CPTS

40:23

experience those can make

40:25

social interactions more challenging.

40:28

takes away our resilience and leads

40:30

to that high level of stress

40:32

all of the times we're trying

40:35

to navigate through the world as

40:37

relational beings. And we talked about

40:39

this a lot in our

40:41

stress response and relationship episode.

40:43

And so if I know

40:45

that I can work with

40:47

my cerebellum to improve my

40:49

adaptability and social resilience, that really

40:52

leads to me to think this

40:54

is very important. place to

40:56

focus in as I'm

40:58

working on complex trauma

41:00

resolution. And really, we talk about

41:02

this too. with the NSI training, like

41:05

you can't be present and dissociated at

41:07

the same time and presence is the

41:09

truth of our emotions and our reality

41:11

because we can't heal what we cannot

41:13

feel. So back to the cerebellum and

41:15

all of these brain areas that we

41:17

really want to get on board if

41:19

they haven't been lit up as well.

41:21

I know y'all have maybe heard me

41:23

talk about that, my own experience where

41:26

I didn't feel like areas of my

41:28

brain were that lit up before and

41:30

not through NSI. I get to

41:32

experience more continuity. experiences

41:35

of compounded PTSD on top of

41:37

CPTS. When I think of the ways

41:39

I've been able to kind of

41:41

reframe some of my experiences, adverse

41:43

experiences that happen through development and

41:45

all through our lives, I know

41:47

that can be a weird word

41:49

to use the word reframe because

41:51

it sounds so cognitive, but for

41:53

me that really happens in that

41:55

place of resiliency because that happens

41:57

on a mind and body and

41:59

soul. level, everything coming together, like my mind

42:01

can sometimes cognitively understand things, but I know that

42:04

I can't push my body to receive those messages,

42:06

and I can only push my mind into a

42:08

place once my body is really on board,

42:10

and if I know the truth, I can feel

42:12

the truth, and I can be in the truth,

42:15

as I know them, not looking for the external

42:17

validation of others. not needing that external validation and

42:19

talking about healing relationally, I know now how to

42:21

ask for what I need in relationship for other

42:24

people to give me that support and I lead

42:26

a faith-based life so I don't ever feel

42:28

like I'm really ever alone in my healing journey.

42:30

I think that's a huge aspect of my spiritual

42:32

healing experience and on the path that I walk

42:35

now. A couple closing thoughts here as we wrap

42:37

up. What does this mean for those who are

42:39

working through trauma in like you're doing nervous system

42:41

healing already? I think the best takeaway from this

42:44

is that if you can add in some

42:46

cerebellum work as well, it like gives you a

42:48

boost like a super jet fuel of brain activation

42:50

to start integrating these different brain areas together. And

42:52

what does that look like? A few coordination exercises.

42:55

working through circles and figure aids with your joint

42:57

movements, picking up something like juggling scarves is an

42:59

easy fun way to do cerebellum training is going

43:01

to integrate vision and movement and breathing all

43:03

at the same time. So add in a few

43:06

exercises that they require a little bit higher level

43:08

of coordination and accuracy and you'll be tapping into

43:10

that cerebellum in movement which will also carry over

43:12

into cognitive emotional and social situations as well. And

43:15

then I think for practitioners, just keeping in mind

43:17

that it's so important to keep understanding how we

43:19

can practically work with the brain and the

43:21

nervous system to help people re-pattern and create some

43:23

of this change. at a non

43:26

-cognitive level. There's so much

43:28

that can be done

43:30

to improve people's resilience through

43:32

sensory inputs, through neural

43:35

exercises that then can support

43:37

memory integration, support bigger

43:39

experiences of somatic processing.

43:41

And so, you know, I

43:43

would encourage practitioners working

43:46

with all types of clients

43:48

to really start to

43:50

think about some ways that

43:52

they can utilize this

43:55

research, understand the brain

43:57

and the nervous system, and

43:59

start to impact change

44:01

at those different levels beyond

44:03

just a cognitive framework.

44:06

Because as we see from

44:08

this research, a lot

44:10

of times when there's not

44:12

the memory integration or

44:14

the ability to somatically

44:17

process, it can be really

44:19

challenging to just try

44:21

to go through things in

44:23

a cognitive way. So

44:26

if we can make a

44:28

more holistic approach, it

44:30

really opens up a

44:32

lot of possibilities for people

44:34

to have a new

44:37

experience. This is really the

44:39

work that we're doing

44:41

in NSI, using practical neural

44:43

exercises and neuroscience education

44:46

to begin to enhance and

44:48

support all of these

44:50

other beautiful cognitive frameworks.

44:52

So if you're interested in

44:54

learning how to bring

44:57

the nervous system and the

44:59

brain into the work

45:01

that you're doing, check out

45:03

NeurosomaticIntelligence .com. And you can

45:06

get more information about

45:08

our upcoming cohort that

45:10

is currently enrolling. We are

45:12

so excited to announce

45:14

that we are partnering again

45:17

with the nature of

45:19

mind body for a rewire

45:21

retreat in the beautiful

45:23

landscape of the Texas

45:25

Hill Country. We know so

45:28

many of you have

45:30

expressed the desire to have

45:32

the opportunity to work

45:34

together in person and to

45:37

connect with other listeners

45:39

of trauma rewired. And we

45:41

couldn't be more excited

45:43

about doing this in

45:45

the beautiful Texas Hill Country

45:48

where Jennifer and I

45:50

have had such powerful experiences

45:52

in our own healing

45:54

practices. Yes, we'll immerse ourselves

45:57

in daily practices, regulating

45:59

our nervous system, co -regulating

46:01

with each other and

46:03

co -regulating with We will have somatic movements,

46:05

meditations, emotional processing, and we will be held by

46:08

these ancient lands in the beautiful waters. We're

46:10

going to have organic, freshly prepared

46:12

meals every day, really stunning, glamping

46:15

accommodations. and we'll be doing lots

46:17

of hiking in the hill country,

46:19

swimming in the natural springs, and

46:22

most importantly, spending time together. The

46:24

spaces are very limited. It's going

46:26

to be an intimate retreat. So

46:29

get your information now and register

46:31

if you want to join us

46:33

at rewire retreat.org. We can't wait to

46:36

meet you. This podcast is for informational

46:38

and educational purposes only and should

46:40

not be considered medical or psychological

46:43

advice. We often discuss lived experiences

46:45

through traumatic events and sensitive topics

46:47

that deal with complex developmental and

46:50

systemic trauma that may be unsettling

46:52

for some listeners. This podcast is

46:54

not intended to replace professional medical

46:57

advice. If you are in the

46:59

United States and you or someone

47:01

you know is struggling with their

47:04

mental health and is in immediate

47:06

danger, please call 911. For specific

47:08

services relating to mental health, please see

47:10

the full disclaimer in the show notes.