0:00

You know, everyone's talking

0:03

about this switch too, but

0:05

not enough people are talking

0:08

about switch to the polls.

0:10

Welcome to Triple Click

0:12

where we bring the games

0:14

to you. This week we

0:16

are talking about Nintendo's new

0:18

console. What is the deal

0:20

with that thing? Is it

0:23

really just a switch, but

0:25

bigger and better or worse? I'm

0:30

Jason Schreyer. I'm Kirk

0:33

Hamilton. And I'm Maddie

0:35

Myers. Hello! To another episode.

0:37

I hope you two are

0:39

doing just fine on this

0:41

cold winter day. Yeah, you

0:44

know, just ignoring everything

0:46

else. Yeah, I'm doing great.

0:48

Like me, personally. Yeah, you personally.

0:51

Being laser focused on the weather

0:53

and the screen in front of

0:55

me. Like if we're just talking about

0:57

me and like how I am, then

1:00

yeah, everything's good. Well, video games are

1:02

pretty cool. We should talk about them.

1:04

Sure are. Yeah, they're cool. If

1:06

you too like getting a distraction

1:08

from all of this and listening

1:10

to us talk about video games

1:12

every week, then you should. Become

1:14

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1:16

on which our podcast is on,

1:18

on which our podcast is on,

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on which our podcast lives. You're

1:22

a writer, not an editor is

1:24

fun. I'll pass that to Kirk

1:26

and Kirk I'll handle making that

1:29

into something good. See, this is

1:31

why we need to, we need

1:33

money because we have to pay

1:35

Kirk to edit our words into

1:37

coherence. Yeah, because Kirk

1:39

normally edits all of our words, like the

1:41

order of them in every episode. episode takes four months. I

1:43

have to take the extra time to take Jason's mistakes and

1:45

like loop them over and over and over so people really

1:47

hear them a bunch of time. Well that's yes the that's

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to join. Go to maximumfund .org/join

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and you too can become a

2:31

member. Okay, before we get started with

2:33

today's main topic, I have a

2:35

little bonus treat for you guys, which

2:37

is that we got a question

2:39

for last week's that I wanted to

2:41

do for last week's burning questions

2:43

episode, but didn't get to for reasons

2:45

that'll make sense in a second.

2:47

So let me read out the question

2:49

and then I will explain the

2:51

deal. So this is a question from

2:53

Dan and Dan says, Hi, y 'all,

2:55

why do you so many modern

2:57

games include sections where you slide down

2:59

a slope, whether it's Jedi fallen

3:01

order, Final Fantasy 16 or Dragon Age,

3:03

the veil guard. I feel like

3:05

my character is always sliding down a

3:08

gravelly slope. Is

3:10

it just to hide a loading screen or

3:12

is it something else? Thanks, Dan. And

3:15

you two are wondering about this too, right?

3:17

Yeah, none of us had the answer, but

3:19

it's true. It's also it like requires

3:21

a whole bespoke animation sliding town.

3:23

So it seems like a heave of

3:25

that. So I texted a game

3:27

developer who worked on the Jedi games

3:29

and asked him, Hey, what's the

3:31

deal? And he was very, very graciously

3:34

gave some time to answer this

3:36

question. So this is from Justin Perez,

3:38

a designer formerly at Respawn, now

3:40

a giant school. And he gave me

3:42

permission to quote him and use

3:44

his name. And he says, I'm going

3:46

to redo a few of his

3:48

texts. He says it's primarily a more

3:50

interactive, action driven version of

3:52

a one way door. Speaking for

3:54

Jedi specifically, though I'm pretty

3:56

confident it would reply to other

3:58

examples as well. It was somewhere we

4:00

didn't want you to go back. We didn't

4:03

want you to be able to go

4:05

back the way you came. It was

4:07

also another way to break up the

4:09

standard cadence of walk, run, jump actions

4:11

and a change up to mix into

4:13

the platforming gameplay. It feels good to

4:16

mix and match traversal moves and a

4:18

slide, just like while run was a

4:20

useful tool to create opportunities to chain

4:22

them together. In the context of Dan's

4:24

question, though, mainly the one-way thing, and

4:26

also regarding the modern games piece of

4:29

the question, it's probably also because we

4:31

actually don't need the same loading screens

4:33

we used to, hidden or otherwise. So a

4:35

fast-moving slide is a way for us

4:37

to push you quickly into the next section,

4:39

where we used to just have to make

4:42

you wait to load that next chunk

4:44

of the level in. Now it's already ready

4:46

for you to go to immediately. That's

4:48

really cool. It makes sense. Kind of

4:50

the opposite. The opposite of the door.

4:52

Yeah, that does make sense. Because you

4:55

are seeing where you're going, so of course

4:57

it's there when you get there, and it

4:59

feels like you're in motion. I mean, I

5:01

get it. I didn't really think about the

5:04

fact that it is also a one-way door.

5:06

Of course, you can't go back up. Well,

5:08

that's the thing. It's like, one of those things

5:10

where you see behind the behind the curtain, it's

5:12

like. It's like, oh, we want you to be

5:15

funneled into this one area and you can't go

5:17

back. So this is how we're going to do

5:19

it. And you don't think about it because

5:21

it's a cool fly. Yeah. Interesting, right? So

5:23

yeah. So this, this, I had to

5:25

wait for, he didn't respond to me

5:28

until after we recorded last week's episode,

5:30

which is why, which is why we

5:32

didn't get to that. But here we

5:34

go. So thanks to Dan for asking

5:36

the question and thanks for Justin Perez

5:39

for just in Perez for just in

5:41

Perez for answering for answering it. Last

5:43

week, Kirk won a prediction when Nintendo

5:45

announced the switch too. Nintendo opened their

5:47

announcement by saying, congratulations. Kirk had a

5:50

typical click. Did you imagine it was

5:52

like big confetti? It was like, Kirk,

5:54

this one's for you. It was a

5:56

two and a half minute teaser trailer

5:59

that showed off. the new and

6:01

improved switch model and Promised

6:03

more to come much more

6:05

to come on April 2nd.

6:07

We saw a couple things.

6:09

There was a new Mario

6:11

Kart in there There were

6:13

Joy -cans that seemed to

6:15

snap with magnets instead of

6:18

those rails It's bigger. It's

6:20

got a Presumably it'll have

6:22

better specs because it's been

6:24

eight years since the Switch

6:26

came out. It's actually gonna have worse

6:28

specs is crazy And

6:38

It's a bunch of other things. I don't know.

6:40

What did you two think of the switch

6:42

to reveal? Does it make you pumped for a

6:44

new console? I mean,

6:46

yeah, I can't help it. I I enjoyed

6:49

it a lot. I I watched it.

6:51

I had a good time watching it I

6:53

also happened to really like Mario Kart

6:55

games, by the way And that's the only

6:57

game they showed us in the reveal

6:59

and given the fact that the reveal was

7:01

structured kind of like a Just a

7:03

hardware reveal it really didn't seem like we

7:05

were gonna get any games shown off

7:08

very different Structurally than the switch one reveal

7:10

that had a bunch of games bunch

7:12

of examples of people walking around town and

7:14

going to roof deck parties playing the

7:16

switch. This was like You

7:18

know blank background just looking at the

7:20

device So the fact that we got

7:22

a Mario Kart reveal was exciting to

7:24

me personally But if you don't like

7:26

Mario Kart, then I guess you might

7:28

be somebody out there who's like why

7:30

isn't there a new Mario game or?

7:33

Animal crossing if you don't like Mario Kart.

7:35

I don't know. Do these people exist? I

7:37

don't it's a great point Kirk, what am

7:39

I saying? Everyone likes it I'm not like a

7:41

huge Mario Kart first and I'll play it

7:43

and have fun playing it But I wouldn't

7:45

like it was something I would go to

7:47

nor like I've had a friend over neutral

7:49

play it Yeah, I'm neutral on Mario Kart.

7:51

I don't know so I had a good time

7:53

watching it Kirk here editing the episode and I

7:55

know I know there's a lot of people out there who

7:57

don't like Mario Kart That was just like a crack that

7:59

I made. It was just kind of a joke. I

8:02

definitely know that you're out there. I

8:04

shouldn't make that kind of joke anymore. It

8:06

just struck me as sort of funny in

8:08

the moment. Anyways, if you're out there

8:10

and you don't like Mario Cart, I see you.

8:12

I know that you exist. It's okay. Yeah,

8:15

to your point Maddie, it's interesting comparing

8:17

that. I re-watch the first one a

8:20

few times and then I watch this

8:22

one a few times. And it's really

8:24

interesting making that comparison point because for

8:27

the switch one, it had come out

8:29

just after the Wii U, which was

8:31

kind of this weird hybrid console where

8:34

there was a tablet attached to the

8:36

console and you could use the tablet

8:38

to play games like on the go,

8:41

but only within the like a short

8:43

radius of the console. And so they,

8:45

when they announced the switch, they really

8:47

had to show what it was. And so

8:49

that teaser trailer that they first announced for

8:52

that was a really good selling point for

8:54

it. It was like, okay, you instantly understood

8:56

that this person was playing the New Zelda

8:59

game, then they took their console on the

9:01

go, and then they brought it on an

9:03

airplane and played Skyram and so on and

9:05

so forth. With this one, they didn't need

9:08

to do that. They just needed to communicate

9:10

that this is just like a switch, except

9:12

better and bigger and bigger. that was like

9:14

we'll play all of your old switch

9:16

games or most of them it said

9:19

which I think is just like the

9:21

caveat here I think is that it

9:23

won't play like labo and other things

9:25

that require the very specific form of

9:27

the first JoyCon because these are new

9:29

JoyCon so I don't think you have

9:31

to worry about like your year old

9:33

I don't know shovel night not being

9:35

playable on the switch too but yeah

9:37

but but all they had to communicate

9:39

this time was hey it's a switch but

9:41

more But worse. But it sucks now. It's

9:44

way worse. But Kirk, what did you

9:46

think about it? Yeah, I mean, I'm

9:48

excited for it. I'm excited to be

9:50

excited about the switch again. I think,

9:52

you know, it's been a little while,

9:55

really since the steam deck came out,

9:57

since I sort of just replaced

9:59

the... as my go-to handheld for

10:01

most games. It's been a while since

10:03

I've been that excited about the switch.

10:05

I was excited about some switch games,

10:07

you know, Tears of the Kingdom, comes

10:10

to mind, as maybe the most recent

10:12

one that really got me excited. But

10:14

it's been a while since it felt

10:16

like Nintendo was really in the game.

10:18

And I think... You know, that's just

10:20

due to the somewhat extended feeling wait

10:22

for this new console. Like it's kind

10:25

of felt like Nintendo was waiting too.

10:27

I don't know if that was the

10:29

case or not, but there was just

10:31

that sense, like, well, they've got a

10:33

lot cooking, but they're waiting. And then,

10:35

you know, even things like echoes of

10:37

wisdom would come out and just actually

10:40

not run perfectly on the switch, and

10:42

there was just this feeling like, uh...

10:44

these developers might be kind of bummed

10:46

that it's coming out on the old

10:48

hardware because they maybe prepped it for

10:50

the new one. And so there's just

10:52

been this feeling for a while that

10:55

that Nintendo is kind of in a

10:57

holding position. And now they will, you

10:59

know, leave that holding position and get

11:01

back into the game, I think, in

11:03

a pretty exciting way. So I'm excited

11:05

for that. And I'm happy. I'm fine

11:07

with them not making any huge changes.

11:10

I really like the switch. So fine

11:12

for them to release a new one

11:14

that's just more powerful. Yeah, it's funny.

11:16

I feel the same way that I'm

11:18

fine for them to just be like,

11:20

hey, it's a switch, but better. But

11:22

at the same time, a little part

11:25

of me can't help but be disappointed

11:27

that Nintendo hasn't come out with some

11:29

big surprise. And maybe they're waiting. Maybe

11:31

bizarre? Like, well, none of us understand

11:33

at all, like alarm or whatever. I

11:35

mean, sometimes that stuff is fun. There

11:37

are a few hints that there are

11:40

a few hints that there might be

11:42

something like. a label. There are rumors

11:44

on the internet that it's like a

11:46

C button and it has some sort

11:48

of social features attached to it, but

11:50

it was notably unmarked in the reveal

11:52

trailer. And then the other big kind

11:55

of quirky hardware rumor is that the

11:57

joycans have these infrared sensors that can

11:59

make them function like computer mice. And

12:01

in fact, in the trailer, they hinted

12:03

at that too, where the controllers were

12:05

kind of placed on a table, a

12:07

surface of some sort, and moved around

12:10

as if they were mice. So those

12:12

seem to be the two quirky, innovative

12:14

elements of this. And maybe that will

12:16

be enough to add a whole host

12:18

of new, cool ideas that the first

12:20

switch didn't have. I think it might

12:22

be. And also, yeah, I've seen some

12:24

of the complaining about. you know, oh

12:27

this isn't Nintendo at their most inventive,

12:29

you know, people who love it when

12:31

Nintendo comes out with a genuinely weird

12:33

console with a bunch of new ideas.

12:35

Though it is worth keeping in mind...

12:37

that Nintendo does really well when they do

12:39

iteration, like the Super Nintendo, the Game Boy

12:42

Advance, I would even maybe, to me at

12:44

least the 3DS, kind of just feels like

12:46

an iteration, even though I know it had

12:49

the 3D. The 3D just wound up being

12:51

such an essential part of it, and it

12:53

was mostly just doing what the DS did

12:55

so well and that made the DS so

12:58

popular, just in a slightly more powerful, you

13:00

know, but very similar kind of a system.

13:02

So like, I'm happy for Nintendo to do

13:05

this, like... You know, video games benefit

13:07

from iteration in software and in hardware.

13:09

And Nintendo is nothing, if not inventive,

13:11

on the software side. There's also, you

13:13

know, there's one little thing that I

13:15

noticed about the Steam, or the, about

13:17

the switch to, that, um, I don't

13:19

know. I don't know what will come

13:21

of it, but it could open the

13:23

door to a lot of really cool

13:25

stuff, is that the system has a

13:27

second USB port. Yes. And that actually...

13:29

opens the door to a lot of

13:32

really cool stuff to just using accessories.

13:34

At the very least, you know, I

13:36

could see them selling like a USBC

13:38

headset. that does audio and also has

13:40

a microphone so there's like integrated chat

13:42

allowing for more online and maybe just

13:44

a better integrated online experience than the

13:46

switch one had which was of course

13:48

infamously terrible and you had to use

13:50

the phone for you had to like

13:52

use the phone app for chat it

13:54

was totally right a separate app on

13:56

your phone so you can play multiplayer

13:58

talk to your friends. if you're playing remotely

14:01

and who knows they haven't. show in

14:03

the accessories for this, but I could

14:05

imagine maybe the new pro controller will

14:08

have some kind of a plug-in it

14:10

that'll allow for that too. What if

14:12

you could charge your iPhone on the

14:15

switch too? Right, I mean, probably, right?

14:17

That's what it's for, you're right. And

14:19

then, you know, you go beyond that,

14:22

and it's like you can imagine Nintendo

14:24

releasing all kinds of cool accessories. And

14:26

you just picture things like, what's it

14:29

called, what's a lot they can

14:31

do that's inventive. outside of the

14:33

console itself needing to be some

14:35

weird freak show, you know, that

14:37

no one wanted. So I'm kind

14:39

of, I'm excited about the possibilities

14:41

there. Yeah, I'm with you, especially

14:43

since the weird freak show element

14:45

of the switch to, the mouse

14:47

potential of the Drey Cons is

14:49

something that I think is completely

14:51

unhinged and makes no sense at all.

14:53

Like I'm excited and love it in

14:55

the sense that it's... the most Nintendo

14:58

idea ever because I'm like, why would

15:00

you do this? Why would I want?

15:02

That, like, ergonomically, my living room is

15:04

in no way set up for that

15:06

and I have no plans for it

15:08

to be at any point in the

15:10

future. Just patently absurd. But I do

15:12

love the idea just because I'm like,

15:15

great, there's gonna be some sort of

15:17

bizarre functionality here that one specific switch

15:19

game, like in a one two switch

15:21

or a we sport situation, will launch

15:23

with it, it will be amazing in

15:25

that one game, and then no one

15:27

will ever use it again, because everyone

15:29

will be like why. at the very

15:32

least it does strike me as something

15:34

that will be in one game and

15:36

at lunch and then will never turn

15:38

up again that maybe not only in that

15:40

I can think of it as being good

15:42

for aiming for shooters yeah that's okay but

15:44

this is what I'm saying ergonomically like do

15:47

you really want to play all of metroid

15:49

prime force sitting at a desk like I

15:51

mean I'll do it I guess but you

15:53

could presumably imagine like holding the

15:56

switch with your left hand with

15:58

that joycon plugged in and then

16:00

you're right one, like sitting next to

16:02

you. You would just eat kind of

16:04

a surface next to you. You wouldn't

16:07

need to be at a desk. Are

16:09

they going to sell a surface? that

16:11

I put on my couch. This is

16:13

a good opportunity to remind everybody that

16:16

Jason likes to play switch games with

16:18

the two JoyCon in separate hands. Oh

16:20

my god, that's right. I forgot about

16:22

that. Jason, Jason games with his hands

16:24

at his side on the couch with

16:27

one JoyCon. Or at least you had

16:29

mentioned playing some games. You have. You

16:31

guys are thinking of the Wii. That's

16:33

what I did. Oh, okay. Is that

16:35

I kept him like in a weird

16:38

position. switch ones too but that's all

16:40

the I play it so rarely on

16:42

the TV like usually I'm playing it

16:44

right so okay so I want to

16:47

get at the kind of the elephant

16:49

in the room which is that Kirk

16:51

now has twice including once accidentally mentioned

16:53

the word steam deck and I think

16:55

that the thing about the switch too

16:58

that is like the biggest warning sign

17:00

for Nintendo is that it's entering a

17:02

way more crowded landscape that it created

17:04

because of the switch is success yes

17:06

so in 2017 The switch right up

17:09

the gate was was a massive hit

17:11

for multiple reasons One was the the

17:13

hardware itself another was launching with one

17:15

of the greatest games of all time

17:17

in Breath of the Wild on it

17:20

So that helped sell some systems and

17:22

then Mario cart shortly afterwards just like

17:24

set it on fire But at that

17:26

time like any time an indie game

17:29

developer would announce a game the first

17:31

question would be so when is it

17:33

coming to switch and what would happen

17:35

is in that first year of development,

17:37

and I've done a little bit of

17:40

reporting on this There were some games

17:42

that came out, some indie games, some

17:44

smaller games that came out that became

17:46

usually successful on the switch that might

17:48

not have otherwise because there was such

17:51

a massive, like rabid fan base of

17:53

switch owners who wanted stuff to play

17:55

on it. The Flame and the Flood

17:57

was one of those games. Shovel Night

18:00

was in Shovel Night. Shovel Night. But

18:02

then truly, exactly. Exactly. And that was

18:04

2018. So that was the second year

18:06

of the switch. So things have changed.

18:08

Like now when an indie game gets

18:11

announced, people are like, so how does

18:13

it run on the steam deck? Like

18:15

it's a very different conversation. And the

18:17

steam deck, even though it doesn't offer

18:19

the Nintendo library, the Nintendo first party

18:22

library, it does offer a lot of

18:24

advantages that the switch doesn't, including most

18:26

pivily that you can have your entire

18:28

seam library on there. and just go

18:31

back and forth. And a lot of

18:33

people have these kind of massive steam

18:35

libraries that they've been building up. And

18:37

steam, of course, has a whole lot

18:39

of games that don't need to be

18:42

separately ported to the switch in order

18:44

to run on your steam deck. So

18:46

the steam deck has a lot of

18:48

big advantages. We've also seen Xbox and

18:50

PlayStation are both, well, Xbox has said

18:53

they're entering the handheld realm. PlayStation is

18:55

reportedly reentering the handheld realm as well.

18:57

It's a different landscape. they still have

18:59

Mario Cart and Animal Crossing and

19:01

Zelda and so on and so

19:04

forth. I don't think it's quite the

19:06

same market where they can come out

19:08

with this thing and everyone will just

19:11

be hungry for stuff to play on

19:13

it and buying it up every time

19:15

it hits store shelves. I mean just

19:17

as an example from my own life,

19:20

it's from my own life, anecdotally, it

19:22

used to be from my own life,

19:24

anecdotally, it used to be 2018, 2019

19:26

or so, that like any time someone

19:29

sent me a code on PC and

19:31

I'll just like switch between my desktop

19:33

and... my steam deck. So I don't

19:35

know, granted the switch has sold 150

19:38

million units and the steam deck is

19:40

only in the in the millions, possibly

19:42

10 million at this point. So way

19:44

different, install bases at this point, but

19:46

like still, it feels different than it

19:49

did back then. What do you guys

19:51

make of the landscape for Nintendo right

19:53

now? Yeah, I think what's what's

19:55

really interesting about what you said

19:57

is the fact that Nintendo created

19:59

this. Like Nintendo came up with this. And

20:01

I remember when the switch was announced, I

20:03

was like, I don't. really know if I

20:06

want like a big weird handheld like I

20:08

don't really understand what this is. Meanwhile I

20:10

was like all I want is a big

20:12

weird handheld give me it. Okay but then

20:14

as soon as I have my hands and

20:16

I understood like the full potential of what

20:18

it can be I was like the Nintendo

20:20

trick right like they show you something in

20:23

a commercial and you're like that looks weird

20:25

and I don't understand how it fits into

20:27

my life like even seeing people at the

20:29

rooftop Mario Cart party I was like I

20:31

don't understand if that's really going to be

20:33

me. I've never played a switch on a

20:35

rooftop. I feel like I should. Anyway, it

20:37

doesn't matter. It is different now because I'm

20:40

like, well, I have multiple handhelds in my

20:42

life. I can play any game I want

20:44

on the handheld device of my choosing. I

20:46

have PS5 remote play on my steam deck.

20:48

I can play Xbox games on my steam

20:50

deck with the XB play app that I

20:52

mentioned a few episodes back. It's extremely easy

20:54

for me. my entire house that I own,

20:57

I can play on a handheld device. So

20:59

the switch just doesn't feel unique anymore. And

21:01

I don't know how many people feel that

21:03

way or if that's like going to drive

21:05

people to buy it or not, but it

21:07

does seem relevant, especially given that the switch

21:09

to is purely an upgrade situation. Like if

21:11

we leave aside the weird fun aspect of

21:14

the mouse part of the JoyCon and like

21:16

other, you know, see button reveals to come,

21:18

that the draw of the switch too is

21:20

like, well, it's a more powerful switch. it's

21:22

going to play Echoes of Wisdom or Future

21:24

Mario Cart with 24 racers or whatever you

21:26

can imagine. It's going to be more possible

21:28

to play these high intensity video games on

21:31

it. But is that enough to get people

21:33

to buy it? I'm not sure. Especially if

21:35

they already own a switch. And the switch

21:37

is like one of the most best-selling consoles

21:39

of all time. So people already have it.

21:41

They have it. Not only that, but Nintendo

21:43

hasn't yet running. into the

21:45

kind of the same

21:48

massive wall that Sony

21:50

and Microsoft both just

21:52

ran into, which is

21:54

that everybody can play

21:56

Fortnite on their old

21:58

console so they have

22:00

no reason to upgrade.

22:02

Nintendo hasn't at that

22:04

point yet because the

22:07

Switch came out in

22:09

2017, Switch plays Fortnite,

22:11

PS5 and Xbox Series

22:13

did, they both came

22:15

out in 2020, neither

22:17

has surpassed their predecessor

22:19

in large part because

22:21

people are just playing

22:24

their old games on

22:26

the PS4 and have

22:28

no need to upgrade. And

22:30

so if you own a Switch and

22:32

you already have Mario Kart 8 and

22:34

you already have Fortnite and you already

22:36

have Minecraft, do you really need to

22:39

pay $450 or whatever it is to

22:41

upgrade? Yeah. know.

22:43

I think it kind of goes both

22:45

ways for Nintendo. Like the fact that the

22:47

Switch 2 plays the same games that

22:49

you already have for the Switch 1 is

22:51

kind of a nice incentive to upgrade

22:53

whenever you decide to because you can just

22:55

play all those same games on the

22:57

Switch 2 and then presumably any games that

22:59

are only on the Switch 2, which

23:01

will probably be the most exciting games. And

23:03

then to me at least, I don't know,

23:05

it seems to me that the Switch

23:07

is just so locked in with families

23:09

and families with kids that the Steam

23:11

Deck like doesn't really provide

23:13

an alternative there. I mean, I'm really kind

23:16

of just looking at my nieces and

23:18

sort of the way that playing games works

23:20

for them, but like the idea of

23:22

them playing games on a Steam Deck is

23:24

just not even a thing. No, you're

23:26

right, you're right. Were they excited about the

23:28

Switch 2? Like, do they know about

23:30

it? We haven't talked about it

23:32

actually. I'm sure they are, I mean, they're excited

23:34

about games in general, so I'm sure they are.

23:36

So anyways, yeah, I think that there are a

23:38

lot of families out there who are just like,

23:40

oh yeah, Switch 2, sick, we'll get one for

23:42

Christmas. And it's just gonna be like totally like a

23:44

done deal. There's not gonna be any like, oh

23:46

well, PC gaming, et cetera, partly because oh, we can

23:48

just play all the games we already have, plus

23:50

there's a new Mario or a new Mario Kart or

23:52

whatever, and then whatever comes down the road. Like

23:54

Nintendo has been very good to a lot of those

23:56

families. So, and that's just families. I think there

23:59

are also just a of... a lot of people out there

24:01

who just play games on switch and are like,

24:03

yeah, I'll just buy the new one. It plays

24:05

all the games I already have and it's more

24:07

powerful. So that's a big advantage for them, despite,

24:09

like you said, the fact that it's a more

24:11

crowded field and especially for like Capital G

24:13

gamers or whatever like the core market.

24:15

There is some more competition now with

24:17

the steam deck and the rock ally

24:20

and whatever all these other handouts. The

24:22

Capital G gamers are the ones who

24:24

are like don't play games. They just

24:26

post about the gameers. They just post

24:28

about. That's your low-paced gameers can use.

24:30

We all have steam decks and we're

24:32

lower-case gameers. It's true. But still

24:34

like the the more intense audience

24:36

that owns multiple consoles as opposed

24:38

to somebody who's somebody who's like

24:40

all I have. animal crossing which

24:42

represents I think a pretty sizable

24:45

percentage of those millions of switch

24:47

owners which there's nothing wrong with

24:49

that I think that makes perfect

24:51

sense and those people I'm kind of

24:53

being convinced by your argument Kirk that those

24:55

people might just be like well yeah of

24:57

course I want the next Mario cart I

24:59

bought this one so I could have that

25:01

other Mario card and now I'm gonna get

25:04

the next one but it's Nintendo so they're

25:06

probably gonna put the new Mario cart on

25:08

the switch one. No, no, no, no, no, no.

25:10

Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, that would be

25:12

new for them, though. Well, the whole

25:14

point out of this. Like, even Breath

25:16

of the Wild was on the

25:18

Wii U. Well, the new Mario

25:21

card has like 24 racers or

25:23

something. Like, it's like a more

25:25

advanced game. And Maddie, that's just

25:27

because it was announced for Wii

25:29

U. That's true. And Maddie, that's

25:31

just because it was announced that

25:33

like, like, like, like, loading it's

25:36

worth keeping it. Right. And in

25:38

April, it's just going to be

25:40

like, bam, like, new 3D Mario.

25:42

Like, bam, Mario Cart looks totally

25:44

sick. Like, three other things, like

25:46

Splatoon 4 coming next year, like a

25:48

bunch of other stuff. And it's like, oh

25:51

my God, like, this is so exciting. Plus

25:53

a ton of third party games that run

25:55

on it. And it's going to be like,

25:57

I think the same people that we're talking

25:59

about. that if that's the way that

26:01

it goes and just be like, oh

26:03

yeah, of course, obviously we'll just buy

26:05

this, you know, when they have a

26:07

bundle over the holiday. It's like, it's

26:10

an easy, easy decision. Yeah, if you're

26:12

a switch owner, maybe now you get

26:14

to play Eldon Ring or like Red

26:16

Dead Redemption too. Yeah, which would be

26:18

pretty cool. Like that opens all those

26:20

bigger games. Yeah, I mean, something that

26:22

I think is really, really worth pointing

26:24

out here and is a really, really,

26:26

really worth pointing out here and is

26:28

a really, everything about this is crystal

26:30

clear. For all of the, and I've

26:32

seen a lot of hot takes about

26:34

like, oh, Nintendo was missing its like

26:37

innovative, like innovation, like there's no surprising

26:39

and delighting here. I will never forget

26:41

sitting in at E3, 2011, I believe

26:43

it was, sitting next to Kezam McDonald,

26:45

and we were at the Nintendo E3

26:47

presentation, and they announced the Wii U,

26:49

and Reggie came up on stage, and

26:51

they showed off this weird thing, and

26:53

it's. and Kaza turning turns to me

26:55

and she's like, was that a new

26:57

council or an accessory for the week?

26:59

And that was Nintendo's eternal problem to

27:01

this day. I think most people don't

27:03

even know that they released a console

27:06

called the Wii U. With this, this

27:08

is fun fact, the first time in

27:10

Nintendo's history that they've ever announced a

27:12

new console that has like a two

27:14

at the end, that is like a

27:16

successive release, as opposed to like the

27:18

era of new three. Super Nintendo. Yeah.

27:20

Game Boy Advance was a little bit

27:22

clearer at least, but like they did

27:24

some super confusing branding stuff. This is

27:26

very clear and it will be very

27:28

clear. I imagine in April when they're

27:30

like all of these games are for

27:32

switch two only. You cannot play these

27:35

on switch two only. I think they

27:37

will make that crystal clear because if

27:39

they don't, then like the selling point

27:41

of this thing will be nil. Like

27:43

they can't do what Sony did and

27:45

do the whole cross-gen release strategy and

27:47

I think it's very to run on

27:49

switch one. They won't be, switch one

27:51

won't be powerful enough for it. This

27:53

is also. Speculative by the way, this

27:55

is not inside info, but this is...

27:57

Yeah. I'm just saying that for reset

27:59

era for when they make a threat

28:01

about this. My sense is kind of

28:04

that the switch will still have a

28:06

like fairly healthy life for several more

28:08

years just because like Indies are going

28:10

to keep releasing on it right like

28:12

there will be a lot of people

28:14

with a good incentive to just be

28:16

like well a ton of people still

28:18

have switches I'm going to put this

28:20

game out on switch and switch to

28:22

and switch. I'm going to put this

28:24

game out on switch and switch to

28:26

and switch to and switch and switch

28:28

to and steam. Yeah. I'm going to

28:30

put this on. all pretty seamless. But

28:33

yeah, I mean, the brand identity of

28:35

this thing, like from the beginning of

28:37

that trailer, it was very clear, like,

28:39

you see that switch? Yep, this is

28:41

different. This is bigger. It's a new

28:43

one. It says it has a two

28:45

on the controller. It has a two

28:47

on the system. It's like really trying

28:49

to show you. This thing is new.

28:51

This is a new console. If you

28:53

want to switch two, if you want

28:55

to play a new part Mario cart,

28:57

you get a switch too. Yeah, and

28:59

you make a good point in comparing

29:02

it to the Wii U, which has

29:04

really been something I've been thinking about

29:06

this entire time, is how the Wii

29:08

U is like the comparison point that

29:10

I hope this, I hope it isn't

29:12

a comparison point. I hope we're looking

29:14

at a Game Boy Advance situation, a

29:16

Super Nintendo list goes on, pick your

29:18

Nintendo iteration. That's obviously what I would.

29:20

prefer here is a console where I

29:22

feel like it's an actual upgrade. It

29:24

has a reason to exist, but I

29:26

keep thinking about the Wii U because

29:29

it's so recent and because it just

29:31

felt like such an example of a

29:33

notable failure. 13 years ago. I mean,

29:35

it's like the most recent one before

29:37

the switch itself. So it is recent

29:39

enough in my memory anyway. But yeah,

29:41

it is also an example of a

29:43

thing where they were trying something that

29:45

they hadn't fully baked yet with that

29:47

tablet. And at the time, again, I

29:49

was like, I don't understand the point

29:51

of this and it never made sense

29:53

until the switch one came out. And

29:55

then I was like, oh. That's what

29:58

they were trying to do. I get

30:00

it now. So the Wii was just

30:02

like the weird one and it's not

30:04

going to be an expectation setting thing

30:06

where we need to compare everything to

30:08

that. Yeah, with each subsequent Nintendo console

30:10

it becomes clear that the Wii is

30:12

very much the outlier. Most Nintendo systems

30:14

are just a thing that plays games

30:16

in a controller with buttons on a

30:18

bit used to play the game. Well,

30:20

no, that's not true. I mean, the

30:22

N64 came out and it was like

30:25

cartridges when the rest of the industry

30:27

was going to disks and also. It

30:29

had this controller with like three. Yes,

30:31

but like compared to the we remote

30:33

and the motion control. But every, every,

30:35

every, I mean the DS was like

30:37

blue people, like everyone was like a touch

30:39

screen? Like what the hell? Of course, yes.

30:41

I don't mean to say that they're all

30:44

identical or anything. I just mean that like

30:46

by and large. Nintendo's at its

30:48

best when you're just playing games with a

30:50

controller. Some of those controllers are more similar

30:52

than other ones, but like, the Wii was

30:55

just like dramatically different than pretty much any

30:57

other Nintendo console when you zoom out to

30:59

a certain distance. Sure, the point I was

31:01

thinking was just that a lot of them

31:03

have been innovative in other ways. And again,

31:06

I mean, in a few months we could

31:08

be talking about how like this weird mouse

31:10

thing has really changed everything has really changed

31:12

everything and like who knows what kind of

31:15

possibilities it will bring. Well Mario being

31:17

seems like a logical use for the

31:19

mouse I've seen that floated a lot

31:21

but every time somebody's like Maddie Metro

31:23

Prime 4 with the mouse I'm like

31:25

I don't want to play that game

31:27

with a freaking mouse like I I'm

31:29

worried about my arm I played Metrode

31:31

hunters with the stylus and that was

31:34

pretty cool yeah you never know I

31:36

mean it's rare for an Nintendo game

31:38

to come out and like it not

31:40

to feel good in your hand so

31:42

like I think if they're doing a

31:44

mouse it'll probably It'll probably work. It'll

31:46

probably be pretty good. For Mario Maker

31:48

and also for like, you know, like

31:50

Zelda Maker, like some of those other

31:52

Maker type games, in addition to Mario

31:54

Paint and all of the like more

31:56

user-generated creative games, that yeah, a mouse

31:58

could be incredibly useful. And there's just like

32:00

a subset of Nintendo sickos who do amazing things in

32:03

those games, giving those sickos, the sicko tools they need.

32:05

And I'm all in favor. Yeah, same. Or like PC

32:07

ports that are way better with the mouse. RTS games

32:09

are like other kind of like, I don't know, Civ7.

32:11

That's probably going to be on the next issue. They

32:13

got to put out some type of gamer pillow. If

32:15

they're going to make me play Civ7 with that JoyCon,

32:17

I need something. I'm picturing you remember the the attachment

32:19

for the 3DS with the insane second like thumbwheel that

32:22

you could stick onto it. Like they'll come out with

32:24

some kind of lap. thing that's like the licensed Nintendo

32:26

mouse head. Like a TV tray, like a licensed Nintendo

32:28

TV tray, but instead of like eating my meal off

32:30

of it, I'm playing Civ7 on the switch too and

32:32

I'm frantically clicking the JoyCon. I really am excited to

32:34

feel it in my hands. He's like, that's the thing.

32:36

It's like, just actually touching it and it's bigger, which

32:39

I actually approve of as well. We haven't really talked

32:41

about like the size of it, but... Those joycons, the

32:43

original ones, always felt a little fiddily to me. So

32:45

I'm also happy to see like those other ergonomic changes

32:47

while I'm talking about ergonomics so much. They look more

32:49

comfortable to my eye. I think they probably will be.

32:51

The button to detach the joycons is a lot bigger

32:53

now. I'm excited about that. Another rumor that's been going

32:55

around is that there'll be hall effect sticks for those

32:58

joysticks. I'm really hoping that's true. to prevent JoyCon drift,

33:00

which has been kind of the bane of Nintendo's existence

33:02

throughout the switch one life cycle. So I'm just excited

33:04

for like a very literal hardware upgrade here in terms

33:06

of everything working better, having more longevity, feeling better in

33:08

my hands. Like those JoyCons are little, and I have

33:10

little hands. Yes. Maddie, did you ever play Mario Pain

33:12

on the Super Nintendo? Because it came with a mouse

33:15

and. Oh my God. That's a good sign for Mark.

33:17

Mario Paint to come out

33:19

that if there was a

33:21

previous oh yeah, I'm I'm

33:23

so if there's like a

33:25

Mario Paint 2 I'll I

33:27

will play the hell I

33:29

played so many so many

33:31

ours that came they have

33:34

this like a musical like

33:36

Conducting thing. Oh my god.

33:38

It's so good one again

33:40

for kids I mean man

33:42

like my nieces will love

33:44

that shit if they come

33:46

out with a Mario Paint

33:48

game for this wish like

33:50

every kid Is gonna play

33:53

that like and that again

33:55

like it's just such a

33:57

great selling point for the

33:59

console if that's what they

34:01

do It's exciting. So yeah,

34:03

well, we'll put a pin

34:05

in this discussion because it's

34:07

still so early April 2nd

34:10

is the Nintendo Direct that

34:12

they've said where they're gonna

34:14

talk more about this thing

34:16

and that's when we can

34:18

expect like the real Lowdown

34:20

the release date the price

34:22

the launch lineup like what

34:24

teases they have for future

34:26

games coming to this thing

34:29

That'll be really exciting. So

34:31

we'll we'll count down the

34:33

days until then real quick

34:35

story before we move on

34:37

to another quick topic Which

34:39

is that last Wednesday Do

34:41

you remember there were all

34:43

those rumors flying around like

34:46

oh? Nintendo switch to is

34:48

gonna be revealed tomorrow like

34:50

on Thursday. So on Wednesday

34:52

I went into the city

34:54

and I was working at

34:56

our coffee shop for a

34:58

bit and I kid you

35:00

guys not I'm sitting there

35:02

at this kind of big

35:05

table in Starbucks and next

35:07

to me a group of

35:09

teenage girls three of them

35:11

sits down They pull out

35:13

a switch. They prop it

35:15

on the table pull off

35:17

the jaco joy cons and

35:19

start playing Mario Oh my

35:21

god like it on the

35:24

rooftop in that commercial like

35:26

in the commercials. Was there

35:28

a filming crew behind them?

35:31

And were they all like Bennett on

35:34

ad beautiful? I was like, this

35:36

is an omen the switch to is

35:38

definitely getting You were right. It

35:40

wasn't omen. You were part of an

35:42

ARG actually I'm

35:45

gonna be in the next reveal trailer

35:48

Real quick, we don't a time but

35:50

we should talk a little bit about

35:52

the other big news from last week, which

35:54

is that a website called bloom

35:57

bar Oh

36:00

yeah, I remember that I read

36:02

that I think. Bloomberg. It's like

36:05

a kind of like a sub

36:07

stack thing. Yeah, it's a sub

36:09

stack. It's a billionaire. They're building

36:11

it out, but it's a... I

36:14

think they're gonna make it. Bloomberg

36:16

News reported, some guy named Jason,

36:18

I don't know, whatever. Bloomberg News

36:21

reported that PlayStation canceled two more

36:23

games, two more live service games

36:25

from Sony Bend, which was the

36:28

developer behind Days. Soles remake and

36:30

the shadow of the Colossus remake

36:32

and was purchased by Sony a

36:34

couple years ago. And Blue Point

36:36

is especially noteworthy, I think, because

36:38

for many years now, since Stephen

36:40

Soles, people have been theorizing and

36:42

speculating about what they've been working

36:44

on. And yes, as I reported

36:46

last week, it turns out, it's

36:48

a live service game. This one

36:50

was a god of war, live

36:52

service game. The Sony Ben game

36:54

was a new IP. But it's

36:56

worth noting, PlayStation said in 2022

36:58

that they were going to release

37:01

a dozen live service games

37:03

by 2025. And I think

37:05

they've released two, maybe? Does

37:07

Destiny Count? Hell Divers 2,

37:10

they released. That was a

37:12

hit. Concord. Concord they released.

37:15

Did not the well. was pulled

37:17

from SORS after less than two

37:19

weeks, and then they canceled a

37:21

bunch, canceled Nadi Dogs, last of

37:23

us online, canceled Spider-Man online, canceled

37:26

Twisted Metal, canceled the London Studio

37:28

game, canceled these two, and they've

37:30

announced a game called Fair Games

37:32

with a dollar sign. They've announced

37:35

Marathon, they've announced or hinted at

37:37

the Horizon game from Gorilla Horizon

37:39

Live service, which is different from

37:42

the Horizon MMO that was made

37:44

in Korea. That was just reported.

37:46

canceled this week, two different

37:48

projects. Horizon Online is actually

37:50

made by Gorilla Games, the

37:53

makers of Horizon. So that

37:55

initiative has not worked out

37:57

quite the way Sony might have hoped.

37:59

Man, this is such a waste.

38:02

Really just looking at this. There

38:04

really is. It's such an unbelievable

38:06

waste. Like, I can't believe the

38:08

magnitude of the fuck up here.

38:10

Honestly, like looking at it and

38:12

thinking about it, like the amount

38:14

of money wasted, the amount of

38:16

people who threw themselves at projects

38:18

that were canceled, and just thinking

38:21

of the opportunity cost there, it's

38:23

really mind-boggling for me, the number

38:25

of different things that they could

38:27

have been doing instead of this.

38:29

The only other thought I have

38:31

looking at it is that this

38:33

is one of those hindsight is

38:35

2020 kind of deals. But as

38:37

we've seen, you can't release a

38:39

whole bunch of live service games

38:42

because people only like play one

38:44

or two of them. And so

38:46

you reach market saturation to a

38:48

certain point. And like, again, I

38:50

am a... saxophonist. I don't know

38:52

about this kind of thing. I

38:54

don't think this is hindsight of

38:56

2020. We've been saying that like

38:58

we said this back then too

39:01

to be clear. Okay. Yeah. I

39:03

mean, it seemed it seemed evident

39:05

at the time, but like we

39:07

now are really seeing that play

39:09

out. And it's like my God,

39:11

it's the most colossal mistake. It's

39:13

it's it's it's it's blows my

39:15

mind. So you know it's really

39:17

the real shame here and the

39:20

real colossal mistake is everything you

39:22

said is accurate is accurate. Many

39:24

of these companies that Sony has

39:26

had on live service games are

39:28

single-player studios or studios made up

39:30

of people. So not only is

39:32

the opportunity cost of like, oh,

39:34

they're not going to release something

39:36

until the PS6, but it's also

39:39

like, it's like, oh, they're not

39:41

going to release something until the

39:43

PS6, but it's like trying to

39:45

fit around PEG into a square

39:47

hole or vice versa. It's like

39:49

taking these people who have all

39:51

these experience working on single player

39:53

games and making them to a

39:55

redfall. It's very upsetting and I

39:58

mean even just thinking about, it's

40:00

hard to imagine how much money

40:02

was poured into this, if you

40:04

really add up all of the titles

40:06

together. It is an unfathomable amount, and

40:08

then to stack on top of that

40:10

the human cost of people working on

40:12

these projects that they weren't suited for

40:14

because they wanted to be making single-player

40:16

games, or they were just specialized in

40:18

that, regardless of what they wanted to

40:20

do. They had specialties. Like, it is

40:23

actually unfathomable, the size and scope

40:25

of this. So that's cool. It's definitely, we

40:27

don't know exactly how much money, I bet

40:29

it was enough money to remake Bloodbourn, just

40:31

saying, I bet it was enough money to

40:34

do that. Yeah. get it on the switch

40:36

too I say just thrown it out there

40:38

could have done that maybe for small percentage

40:40

of this money I suspect there are other

40:43

reasons that game has never been remade I'm

40:45

just I'm just saying just to put things

40:47

in some some sort of helpful context but

40:50

yeah in Blue Points case you know it's

40:52

crazy about the Blue Point case is that

40:54

like they were a studio that remade

40:56

things and remade things very well and

40:58

then got an opportunity to make a

41:00

new game but instead of kind of

41:03

starting a little bit small and being

41:05

like hey we We've never made our

41:07

own thing. We've never designed our own

41:09

game. We don't have a ton of

41:11

design experience at this studio. We've only

41:13

made things more beautiful and redone them.

41:15

Maybe we should start small and like

41:18

do something in a couple years. It

41:20

was like, no, we're going to do

41:22

a live service thing. And they did.

41:24

Most of them actually worked on God

41:26

of War, Ragnarok. So it's the last

41:28

few years that they've been doing this

41:30

other, this new thing, but it was

41:32

clear, I think, to a lot of

41:34

people on that team, that it was

41:36

never going to work out. Because when

41:38

you have a bunch of single player

41:41

people, like, assigned to a live service

41:43

game, it almost never comes together, because

41:45

it's really, really hard to make a

41:47

live service game at all, let alone

41:49

if you haven't done it before. Man.

41:51

There's an argument to be made that

41:53

fortnight has single-handedly destroyed the video game

41:55

industry and Through no fault exactly of

41:57

its own. No, no, no, no, no,

41:59

no. making everyone want to emulate it

42:01

by being good. Well, but it's not

42:03

just that two ways. One is by

42:05

making everyone a copy of the other

42:07

is by taking players who would otherwise

42:09

like be buying new games every year

42:11

and having them just play fortnight. So

42:13

it's kind of consuming like both the

42:15

player base and the developer base into

42:17

the fortnight. Sphere and yeah, it's all

42:19

just very sad the the story of

42:21

PlayStation over the last few years and

42:23

if you think about it We're now

42:26

almost five years into the well not

42:28

almost four just after four just over

42:30

four years into the life cycle of

42:32

the PS5 and At this point in

42:34

the PS4 era I feel like we

42:36

have a lot more night and day

42:38

Night and day comparison. This puts it

42:40

in context, just the magnitude of the

42:42

failure and all the games that we

42:44

don't have as a result of this,

42:46

like the different and probably better games

42:48

that we didn't get as a result.

42:50

Yeah, but at least we have fair

42:52

games. Yeah, I can't wait for fair

42:54

games. I mean, hey, maybe it'll be

42:56

great. It might be great. Hopefully it

42:58

will be. I feel like I keep...

43:00

thinking about that suicide squad story you

43:02

did Jason and all the other kind

43:04

of versions of it where the people

43:06

who are actually making the game know

43:08

it's not going to work like there

43:10

needs to be some type of mechanism

43:12

I can't imagine what it would be

43:14

because clearly getting lower people to communicate

43:16

with leadership in a way that works

43:18

for them is like one of the

43:20

inherent difficulties of a corporate hierarchy no

43:22

matter where it is located but just

43:24

thinking about those hundreds of people or

43:26

thousands of people depending on which project

43:28

we're talking about and all of them

43:30

knowing this isn't working this isn't going

43:32

to sell we already know this and

43:34

then just having to continue to trudge

43:36

down that doomed road is very overwhelming

43:38

emotionally to me and I wasn't even

43:40

there like all I've done is read

43:42

an article about it like being in

43:44

it. I think that's a little more

43:46

complicated yeah well I don't think it's

43:48

this is like I know this isn't

43:51

going to work because sometimes you you

43:53

can't you don't really have the full

43:55

picture. Yeah, and you always have hope

43:57

surely. You have hope or you feel

43:59

like, oh, there must be something I'm

44:01

missing. I don't have the bird's eye

44:03

doing the entire project, just like the

44:05

little sphere that I'm working on. But

44:07

yeah, I mean, I don't know, these

44:09

things are so complicated. And the live

44:11

service games, especially this idea of having

44:13

a game that is so good and

44:15

so fun and so compelling that people

44:17

won't want to play it infinitely, is

44:19

so difficult to create that, the fact

44:21

that Tony was like, yeah, we're going

44:23

to make 12 of them, great, great,

44:25

great idea. And I've seen it theorized

44:27

on the internet that like Sony took

44:29

this approach because they were like, hey,

44:31

we'll put out 12 and maybe two

44:33

of them will be such big hits

44:35

that they make up for the rest

44:37

of them. I don't think that was

44:39

a strategy here because I think that

44:41

these games are too expensive to justify

44:43

the costs of that. Like a lot

44:45

of these studios are hundreds of people

44:47

who are being paid for years of

44:49

development. I mean, the last of us

44:51

online alone must have cost. like upwards

44:54

into the nine figures just because it's

44:56

like a hundred a couple hundred people

44:58

on LA salaries working for four years.

45:00

Doesn't the fact that they cancel so many

45:02

of these games like disprove that theory just

45:04

on its face? Like they cancel the game.

45:06

Yeah I mean unless the theory is like

45:08

oh we'll take a bunch of shots and

45:10

maybe some of them will get canceled and

45:12

some of them will work out. I don't

45:14

know. But yeah, I don't know. And then

45:16

you have a flop as big as Concord.

45:18

I don't know. There's a bigger conversation to

45:20

be had here that maybe. Yeah,

45:22

and one of them needs to

45:24

be as big as fortnight to

45:26

even remotely imagine breaking even. Right.

45:28

It needs to be the most

45:31

big game in the world that

45:33

every single person has heard of.

45:35

And we don't have all the

45:37

numbers, because companies are opaque about

45:39

this. There's no way. There's also

45:41

the cost of forcing all of

45:43

these single player studios to make

45:45

a service game where they don't want to

45:47

do it. I'm sure you have a lot

45:49

of attrition there. Yeah, that's true. Everyone's suffering

45:51

through making a game that you then cancel.

45:54

It's horrible for morale. There's so much cost

45:56

here beyond just a monetary cost. If that

45:58

was, in fact, this strategy does a terrible.

46:00

strategy but I feel like it couldn't

46:02

possibly have been. I'm sure they wanted

46:05

these games to be good. It was

46:07

just a total a total failure. All

46:09

right on that lovely note let's take

46:12

a break and then we'll be back

46:14

for one more thing. The

46:19

Flop House is a podcast

46:21

where we watch a bad

46:23

movie and then we talk

46:25

about it. Guys, how does

46:27

E.T. poop? Well, he's not

46:29

that regular, but as he's

46:31

gotten older, he has two

46:33

Cloagas, one under each arm.

46:35

No, I was just looking

46:38

forward to you going through

46:40

the other ways in which

46:42

Wild, Wild, West, is historically

46:44

inaccurate. You know how much

46:46

movies cost nowadays? New episodes

46:48

every Saturday. Find it at

46:50

maximum fun.org. Eggo Sum John

46:52

Hodgman at Eggo Sum Janet

46:54

Varni. And we're the host

46:57

of E. Pluribus motto, a

46:59

podcast dedicated to exploring the

47:01

mottos of every state in

47:03

the Union. Every episode we

47:05

will spotlight one state and

47:07

discuss its official symbols. The

47:09

motto, flowers, birds, beverages, songs,

47:11

and even official state muffins.

47:13

Plus, we'll hear from guests

47:15

whose lives have been inspired

47:18

by the state's iconography and

47:20

from residents who call that

47:22

state home. Bring some snacks

47:24

a map and your travel

47:26

journal because this podcast is

47:28

a virtual journey like no

47:30

other. Audi nostrame, Plurabismato, Quailiba,

47:32

Talia, Lunai, Luna, Di Maximum

47:34

Fun. And for the Latin

47:37

Challenge among you and us, listen to

47:39

E Plurabismato every other Monday on maximum

47:41

fun. What's your one more thing? My

47:43

one more thing is a television show

47:45

that Deena and I watched all of

47:47

over the course of a weekend because

47:49

it's just feel good. And if you're

47:51

out there listeners and you're like, I

47:53

just want to watch something that's going

47:55

to make me feel really good inside,

47:57

I recommend this show. So it's an

47:59

eight. HGTV show, which means it's about

48:02

building things. And we love HGTV

48:04

shows, but this one's a little

48:06

different. So it's called Building Outside

48:09

the Lines, and it's a father-daughter

48:11

building team. But the daughter is

48:13

only 14 years old. and the

48:16

father is a middle-aged fan and

48:18

he does construction and design and

48:21

their dynamic is the cutest thing

48:23

you've ever seen in your life.

48:25

She is like a design prodigy

48:28

of sorts, like has genuinely incredible

48:30

creative ideas, is inspiring to watch.

48:32

Her father is so supportive of

48:35

that, that it just will warm

48:37

your heart in all these projects

48:39

that they do. And also their

48:42

projects are really cool. So they

48:44

aren't just like, oh, they're flipping

48:46

houses and they like sell an

48:49

apartment or something, which is like

48:51

a lot of what HGTV does. And I

48:53

watch plenty of those shows that enjoy

48:55

them. I'm not trying to say those

48:57

aren't fun to watch in their own

48:59

ways. These are like... they'll build a

49:01

tree house for somebody or they'll build

49:03

like a she shed for a single

49:06

mom who's like I just want somewhere

49:08

cool to go and like you know

49:10

make art for myself or like And

49:12

they often use like unconventional materials because

49:14

they're like repurposing them for their builds

49:16

in a cool way. So they'll like

49:18

take like a water tank or something

49:20

and turn it into a hot tub

49:22

and they take like this old grain

49:24

silo and turn it into like a

49:26

cookout location. It's so so cool. And

49:29

we've like learned a lot about building

49:31

strategies from watching this and also just

49:33

had a really good time watching this

49:35

amazing father daughter duo that's just incredibly

49:37

charismatic and sweet to watch. So yeah,

49:39

really recommend it. Just watch the first

49:42

episode. And if you like the vibe,

49:44

you will like the entire show. It

49:46

is called Building Outside the Lines. And

49:48

it probably says a thing that about

49:50

what kind of mood we were in that

49:52

we were like, this is all we want to

49:54

watch. It sounds awesome. I feel like Emily

49:57

will love that show. We'll totally check

49:59

it out. She will. It's really pure and

50:01

good. As a father of a daughter,

50:03

I love a good father-daughter duo. It's

50:05

so, that part of it is so,

50:07

like, just gentle and you're like, oh,

50:09

like, they're working together and he's such

50:11

a good dad. It's like, I don't

50:14

know. It's just really good. Kirk, what's

50:16

your one more thing? My one more

50:18

thing is a movie that I watched

50:20

on a plane this weekend. A great

50:22

plane movie. I was going to say

50:24

this, this movie sounds like a great

50:26

plane movie. I want to hear more.

50:28

Yeah, it was perfect. This is Trapp,

50:31

the recent thriller directed by M. Knight

50:33

Sha Milan. It's... A movie that I

50:35

would say is great for the first

50:37

45 minutes and then becomes bad. And

50:39

it's still worth watching for those first

50:41

45 minutes, though I was very disappointed

50:43

by in the end like the script

50:45

and just the kind of the second

50:48

maybe half-ish of the movie. But the

50:50

first half is so much fun and

50:52

the premise is so good that it's

50:54

worth watching just for that and also

50:56

for sort of the weird beauty of

50:58

a perfect premise that kind of was

51:00

then... spoiled by its own execution. I

51:03

don't know. This is a movie about

51:05

a father and a daughter. The father

51:07

is Josh Harknet. His name is Cooper,

51:09

I believe. He's a firefighter. Real all-American

51:11

guy, aka, you know, upstanding, handsome white

51:13

guy with his daughter, takes her to

51:15

a concert that's essentially like, I would

51:17

say, it's been compared a lot to

51:20

the Taylor Swift Era's tour. It struck

51:22

me a little more like an Olivia

51:24

Rodrigo. who incidentally is played by M.

51:26

Knight Chamlon's daughter, Salika, or Salika, I'm

51:28

not sure how to pronounce her name,

51:30

but she plays the Olivier Rodrigo type

51:32

performer. So this dad is being such

51:34

a good dad and he's taking his

51:37

daughter to this big concert in Philadelphia

51:39

and they go in and it's so

51:41

exciting and she's so excited and she

51:43

sees. so cool and supportive and such

51:45

a goofy dad and then you notice

51:47

there's like a lot of police at

51:49

the at this concert for some reason

51:52

you notice him noticing them and he

51:54

keeps kind of looking at the police

51:56

in a way that seems like he's

51:58

maybe uneasy about how many police there

52:00

are here and then of course it

52:02

is revealed and as something that anyone

52:04

who's heard about this movie knows that

52:06

he is in fact a serial killer

52:09

known as the butcher who is currently

52:11

got a victim tied up in his

52:13

in a basement somewhere that he's checking

52:15

in with on his phone and Turns

52:17

out the police, like the FBI and

52:19

this master profiler, have learned that he's

52:21

going to be at this concert. And

52:24

the whole concert has been set up

52:26

as a trap to capture him finally

52:28

because he's killed so many people and

52:30

he's eluded them. So then the movie

52:32

becomes basically watching this guy, Josh Hartnett,

52:34

who is very good at being very

52:36

charming, but also very terrifying, kind of

52:38

put on his friendly dad face and

52:41

charm people to try to figure out

52:43

a way to escape this building that's

52:45

been set up. up to capture him.

52:47

It's like the best premise for a

52:49

movie I've ever heard. It's so good

52:51

just as a like pulp nonsense kind

52:53

of just fun dumb thriller and it

52:55

is that for the first 45 minutes

52:58

and then it just gets too complicated

53:00

they introduce more characters. The action moves

53:02

outside of the arena. He keeps making

53:04

these increasingly outlandish escapes that rely on

53:06

the police being just morons. And it's

53:08

just very frustrating. Like there's a point

53:10

where I was like, why, why, why

53:13

didn't you just do this as like

53:15

a reverse diehard where the whole movie

53:17

takes place in the concert and like

53:19

we build up to, you know, finally

53:21

going backstage and like interacting with the

53:23

singer? So I mean... You know, it's

53:25

like a really flawed movie, but a

53:27

movie that I really enjoyed and I

53:30

do think actually that Selika Shammelon is

53:32

really great. Like it's it's very funny

53:34

that it's a movie about a father

53:36

like doting on his daughter and doing

53:38

this very nice thing for her when

53:40

the movie itself is like and night

53:42

Shammelon taking his actual singer daughter and

53:44

then like casting her as the biggest

53:47

act in the world or now she's

53:49

a live here. Rodriguez and she gets

53:51

to put on this huge show and

53:53

she really sells it and she's also

53:55

very good in the dramatic scenes that

53:57

she has to do so I was

53:59

his his gambit paid off and you

54:02

know that that worked out and I

54:04

really thought she was great but really

54:06

Josh Hartnett is kind of the reason

54:08

to see it he's a lot of

54:10

fun he was great in Oppenheimer too

54:12

and I think he's great in this

54:14

and it's still like It's a good

54:16

plane movie. It's a good, just want

54:19

to watch a dumb, fun thing kind

54:21

of movie. And I do recommend it

54:23

for all the critiques I could make

54:25

of it. So that's Trapp. It's, I

54:27

don't know if it's streaming. I watched

54:29

it on a plane. So I'm not

54:31

really sure. So I'm not really sure.

54:34

So I'm not really sure. But I'm

54:36

not really sure. But I'm not really

54:38

sure. But I'm not really sure. So

54:40

I'm going to be saying. I watch

54:42

it on a creative control. He kind

54:44

of like, I don't know if he

54:46

does every, like he kind of just

54:48

has his own little, like, team that

54:51

he, and he writes and directs the

54:53

movie and there's no other writing credit.

54:55

And I would have to think that

54:57

if some, like a group of writers

54:59

were working on this, they would just

55:01

be like, there would be someone in

55:03

the writer's room saying, you can't leave

55:05

the, you can't leave the concert, this

55:08

whole thing has to take place there.

55:10

and they don't do that and instead

55:12

there's all this nonsense with his family

55:14

and they like leave and then it

55:16

just becomes a sort of a really

55:18

boring thriller so yeah it's too bad.

55:20

My one more thing is also about

55:23

dads and daughters. Wow! So a few

55:25

weeks ago we got an email to

55:27

the Triple Click account from a game

55:29

developer guy named Parker Crane and he

55:31

said hey I got a game I'm

55:33

a big fan and I got a

55:35

game that you guys might enjoy and

55:37

enjoy and it's called um... And it's

55:40

called the puzzle maker Colin Seba's Odyssey,

55:42

which not the most inviting name, sorry

55:44

of Parker, but I thought I'd like

55:46

pretty cool. Yeah, we will. I thought

55:48

it looked pretty cool because it looks

55:50

just kind of like a grid, kind

55:52

of like a fire emblem thing, but

55:55

it's actually, and the way he explained

55:57

it was that it's kind of like

55:59

an. into the breach style puzzle game.

56:01

And I was like, OK, sounds really

56:03

interesting. And so I downloaded it and

56:05

started playing it on my steam deck.

56:07

And I have since played through all

56:09

200 plus puzzles, because it's really, really

56:12

good. So the reason this game is

56:14

about dads and daughters is because there's

56:16

also a little story attached. It's kind

56:18

of told in these little vignettes between

56:20

each of the puzzles that involves a

56:22

dad and his daughter. And it's surprisingly

56:24

heart warming and heart-wrenching also. But putting

56:26

that aside, because the real, the real.

56:29

made of this game as the puzzles.

56:31

This game, it's kind of reminiscent

56:33

of Into the Reach, but it also

56:36

really reminded me of, of all things,

56:38

those Queen's Blood challenges in Final Medicine,

56:40

a rebirth where you had to like

56:42

put cards in specific positions to cause

56:45

chain reactions and stuff. So that's the

56:47

way this game functions. So like there

56:49

might be, you might start off with

56:51

like a slime and a night is

56:53

next to the slime and all you

56:56

have to do is have the night

56:58

attack the slime and the slime knives

57:00

and then you win. And then the

57:02

next puzzle is like, okay, now there's

57:05

a hole next to the slime and

57:07

there's a. this little mechanism that pushes

57:09

the rock and you have to figure

57:11

out how to get the night down

57:13

to the lever to push it and

57:15

manipulate the rock into the hole so

57:17

then you can kill the slime and

57:20

it gets increasingly complex from there because

57:22

there are a ton of different types

57:24

of characters and enemies and level manipulating

57:26

tools that you can use along the

57:28

way. There are teleporters and then there

57:30

are priests who can give each of

57:32

your characters an extra turn because normally

57:35

each of your characters. can only go

57:37

once as part of the puzzle flow.

57:39

And it gets really, really interesting and

57:41

fun and addictive because it's got that

57:43

kind of bite size like one more

57:45

level sort of feel where you do

57:47

one and you feel really smart and

57:49

you're like, oh I can do just

57:51

one more before I go to bed

57:53

and before in long you've played 20

57:55

of them because they really, it has

57:57

so much variety with all the different.

58:00

types of enemies and characters that the

58:02

game is constantly introducing that it just

58:04

never really gets old. A few downsides,

58:06

it's a little bit sloppy, it feels,

58:08

or I shouldn't say sloppy, it feels

58:10

a little amateur in that there's some

58:12

kind of... Like a lot of the

58:14

hint messages for example are kind of

58:16

off or like tell you the wrong

58:18

thing or like there's some kind of

58:21

Names that are wrong. It feels like

58:23

they they needed to be in need

58:25

of the level of polish to it

58:27

The game itself doesn't have any bugs

58:29

or anything like that But there are

58:31

a few puzzles here and there where

58:33

like it feels like you can kind

58:35

of break them or beat them in

58:37

a way that is unintentional because like

58:39

usually most of the puzzles require you

58:41

to use all of the characters you

58:44

have at your disposal but your disposal

58:46

but like a your disposal I found

58:48

puzzles where I could just beat it

58:50

with only using two characters or something

58:52

and totally broke it. But for the

58:54

most part, it's just so good. I

58:56

really enjoyed it. And I think both

58:58

of you would enjoy it quite a

59:00

bit as well. It is very much

59:02

like a cerebral tactical game. Into the

59:05

breeches is a good comparison. Tactical breach

59:07

wizards, but like at the beginning of

59:09

tactical breach wizards when it feels more

59:11

puzzleish and less like ex-comi like trying

59:13

to strategies. puzzles where each character can

59:15

do a specific thing and you have

59:17

to like maneuver your way through it

59:19

and it's very easy to like undo

59:21

so you can just press a button

59:23

and then undo your last move or

59:26

press another button and reset the whole

59:28

thing so you can really experiment with

59:30

like all the different mechanisms and what

59:32

does what and as it gets more

59:34

complicated it gets really interesting because you

59:36

can play around with these abilities to

59:38

do combinations in ways you wouldn't expect

59:40

like hey you know this enemy will

59:42

punch something and move it to one

59:44

square over. So then if you cast

59:47

ice to like make a slide, you

59:49

can have it punch something and that

59:51

thing will slide all the way over

59:53

here and then it'll trigger this thing

59:55

and trigger that thing and you can

59:57

turn it into a whole Rub Goldberg-esque

59:59

device and yeah, just a super fun

1:00:01

game. I recommend people check it out

1:00:03

again. It's called the puzzle maker Seba's

1:00:05

Odyssey. It's on steam I really enjoyed

1:00:08

it and play through the whole thing

1:00:10

which is more than I can say

1:00:12

for a lot of games that I

1:00:14

try. Check it out. It's really cool.

1:00:16

Awesome. Yeah, I'll play it for sure.

1:00:18

All right, and that is it for

1:00:20

this week's episode Kirk Mani. See you

1:00:22

both next time. Yep. See you both

1:00:24

next week. Bye Triple

1:00:27

Click is produced by Jason Schreyer, Maddie Myers,

1:00:29

and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix

1:00:31

the show and also wrote our theme music.

1:00:33

Our show art is by Tom D.J. Some

1:00:35

of the games and products we talked about

1:00:37

on this episode may have been sent to

1:00:39

us for free for review consideration. You can

1:00:41

find a link to our ethics policy in

1:00:43

the show notes. Triple Click is a proud

1:00:46

member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and

1:00:48

if you like our show, we hope you'll

1:00:50

consider supporting us by becoming a member at

1:00:52

maximum fun.org/join. Join. Find us on Twitter at

1:00:54

Triple Quick Pods. Send email the Triple Click

1:00:56

at maximum fun.org and find a link to

1:00:58

our discord in the show notes. Thanks for

1:01:00

listening for listening. See you next time. maximum

1:01:25

fun. A worker-owned network

1:01:27

of artist-owned shows. Supported

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directly by you.