0:00

Hey guys, welcome to episode 163 of The True Crime

0:02

Couple. I'm Kay.

0:05

And I'm John. We hope all is well and

0:07

that you are in the mood for some true crime

0:10

in our most favorite of months, October.

0:13

We also wanted to thank everyone who has submitted

0:16

their spooky stories to us for

0:18

our listener episode this month.

0:20

If you have a story and you want to share it,

0:22

you have one week left to submit any true paranormal

0:26

stories to truecrimecouple

0:28

at gmail.com.

0:30

Honestly, all of the other stories have

0:33

completely scared the crap out

0:35

of me. So I am really excited to see

0:37

what this year has in store for us.

0:39

I'm excited too. I always get a kick out

0:41

of them. And I always love like getting

0:43

the ones that I know are going to scare John. Oh,

0:45

thanks a lot. Also,

0:48

if you've joined Patreon recently, we will

0:50

be thanking you at the end of this episode.

0:53

So without any further delay, John,

0:55

do you want to hear something crazy?

0:58

Of course. Usually here at

1:00

the beginning of the episode, I talk to

1:02

you about the community in which the

1:04

crime at the center of this episode

1:07

took place.

1:08

But in this case, that is something that

1:10

has proven difficult to do. Hollinsburg,

1:13

Indiana has very limited information.

1:16

In a federal writer's project from 1936,

1:20

author of the document, Jerry Kirk

1:22

from Tarahute,

1:23

stated that the town was named after

1:26

a minister from Kentucky that built

1:28

the first home in the area. He

1:30

noted that no distinguished

1:33

persons or families lived there. No

1:35

houses from an architectural point of

1:37

view stood out. The town had

1:39

a general store, two garages,

1:43

no schools, no churches, nor

1:45

hospitals, colleges, libraries or museums.

1:49

The majority of people that lived there were farmers

1:51

and worked hard for a living and stayed

1:53

mostly to themselves. At

1:56

the time, the population was only 50. And

1:59

at the time of. crime in 1977, it

2:02

wasn't much higher. Hollensburg,

2:05

Indiana is known for one thing

2:08

and one thing only. It is

2:10

a Hoosier town haunted by past

2:13

events. It will forever

2:15

be associated with a fleeting

2:17

moment in time in 1977 when horror descended

2:22

on the small rural community. And

2:25

while you cannot find the census of the

2:27

town or website, you

2:30

can surely learn a lot about

2:32

the Hollensburg Massacre. Police

2:37

say the suspect 31 year old Jeffrey

2:39

Dahmer has confessed to the killings of 11 people

2:42

whose remains were found in his apartment. We

2:45

are all evil in some form

2:47

or another. Are we not? Lock

2:49

your doors, lock your windows. If

2:52

you have the ability to provide additional security

2:54

devices, then by all means do so.

2:58

On Sunday the 13th of February 1977,

3:00

the news broadcasters

3:03

were doing nothing but talking about an ominous

3:05

snowstorm headed their way, sure

3:08

to cancel any and all plans that

3:10

have been made for Valentine's Day. And

3:13

that was why Charlie Bollinger's mother had

3:15

called the Spencer residence. Her

3:18

son had spent the weekend at his friend Reeves

3:20

house and had planned to sleep over

3:22

that night as well. And the two 16

3:25

year old boys were going to head to school together

3:27

that following Monday morning if

3:30

there was even school at all. But

3:33

she called to put an end to those plans.

3:36

Reeves mother Betty Jane called

3:38

for Charlie to let him know that his mother

3:40

was on the phone. Charlie and

3:42

Reeve had been working on an engine so

3:45

he had to wipe his hands off so he didn't make

3:47

a mess of the Spencer's phone. Charlie

3:50

headed into the trailer. The

3:53

Spencer's trailer wasn't large. It was

3:56

made even smaller by the fact that Mr.

3:58

and Mrs. Spencer together had

4:00

four sons that ranged

4:03

from ages 14 to 22. But

4:05

Charlie loved it. He

4:08

thought it was so fun being there. There

4:10

was always something going on. And

4:12

the Spencers were warm people and

4:15

their sons were really nice guys. There

4:18

they got to work on cars, mess

4:20

around and hang out. The

4:23

Spencer trailer located near Raccoon

4:25

Lake was like a teenage boy's paradise,

4:29

which was why Charlie was annoyed with his mother

4:31

when she told him that it was time to come home.

4:34

I know the feeling, Charlie. I know

4:37

the feeling. I remember

4:39

being a kid and my next door

4:41

neighbor, actually across the street, he was

4:43

my best friend and his house always

4:45

had something going on. Same thing like this. And

4:48

it's like his dad was into like music.

4:50

He had a recording studio and it

4:53

was like, I loved video games. So his

4:55

son had, my best friend had all the

4:57

video games of the time. So

4:59

it was just such a good time. And I never wanted to

5:01

leave to the point where I had to be like dragged

5:04

out. So I get it.

5:07

And that's basically what's happening here because

5:09

Charlie's mother told him, listen,

5:11

there's a big storm coming in and

5:13

I want you to be home. But

5:15

he begged her. Well, if there's a big

5:18

storm coming in, can I just spend one more night

5:20

here and I'll come home tomorrow? It

5:23

was his last ditch effort and it didn't

5:25

work.

5:26

No, his mother said.

5:27

You're coming home tonight because come

5:30

tomorrow because of the snow,

5:32

you're not going to be able to drive your car. So

5:35

Charlie told his mother that he'd be coming

5:37

home.

5:38

He said his goodbyes and thank yous

5:41

to Betty and her husband, Keith. And

5:43

then he went out to break the news to his friend,

5:46

Reeve. He let him know that he

5:48

had to go, but he promised that

5:50

no matter the weather tomorrow, he

5:52

would be over there after school so he

5:54

could help him finish the engine that they

5:56

had been working on. Charlie

5:58

Bollinger didn't know it.

5:59

But then,

6:01

but that was the luckiest phone call

6:04

he would ever receive.

6:06

Hours later, in

6:07

the very early morning of Valentine's

6:10

Day, as the snow fell

6:12

around him, a 24-year-old

6:15

rookie state trooper was headed home

6:17

after a long shift when one

6:19

more call came over his radio. The

6:22

call was for the sound of shots fired

6:24

near a home by Raccoon Lake.

6:27

He responded that he would be headed over to

6:29

the area to check it out. The

6:32

officer knew that he would be the only one responding

6:34

to the call for a while because

6:36

he was the only trooper in the area. He

6:39

also knew that this call could be anything.

6:43

Someone messing around, a domestic

6:45

disturbance, or potentially

6:48

a home invasion. And

6:50

in the past week, there had been

6:52

something odd happening in the area. A

6:55

series of home invasions plagued

6:57

Hollensburg, and

6:59

the state troopers were being very vigilant about

7:02

what was happening. He

7:04

recalled from his training that

7:06

it was these types of calls that

7:08

were the most dangerous. So

7:11

he made sure to be on high alert. When

7:14

the officer got to the scene, he noticed

7:16

that the residence to which he was

7:18

told to report was in complete

7:20

darkness. And

7:22

this is something that he noted as odd. The

7:26

trailer was in a remote location, and

7:28

there were no street lights. They weren't

7:30

even near the street. So

7:33

as most homes do in rural Indiana,

7:36

the residence should have a flood

7:38

or security light, but nothing

7:41

here had been illuminated. As

7:43

the officer got closer to the residence,

7:45

he saw that there was a security light

7:48

on the house by the front

7:50

of the stairs. But that light

7:52

had been broken recently, as

7:54

evident by a nearby rock and

7:57

glass on the stairs. This

7:59

was a sign of The officer

8:01

knew that he had to approach the scene to

8:03

ensure that the residents inside were

8:06

not still in danger. So

8:09

here I just want to provide a trigger warning

8:12

because the next 30 seconds of this podcast

8:14

will include violence against an animal. So

8:17

if you would not like to hear that,

8:19

please fast forward.

8:20

As the officer got even closer to the

8:23

house and shown a light on

8:25

the ground, he saw that the family's

8:27

dog, who had been tethered to an outdoor

8:29

chain, was in a heap on

8:32

the ground. The snow around

8:34

him was bright red. He

8:36

had been shot. After

8:38

seeing that horrific scene, the

8:40

officer knew that he would be walking into

8:42

something

8:43

that he was likely never to forget.

8:47

He circled the perimeter of the property, checking

8:49

the scene. All was eerily

8:52

quiet. He

8:54

found that the back door of the trailer had

8:56

been busted open, so he

8:58

cautiously stepped inside. He

9:01

traveled as quietly as he could through the rooms

9:04

while searching for signs of life. As

9:06

he moved around, he felt that something

9:09

kept hitting his hat. He

9:11

ignored it at first, but then

9:13

it kept happening, and it grew

9:15

harder to ignore. Finally,

9:18

when something larger dropped onto the rim

9:20

of his hat, knocking at his skew, he

9:23

had to snap. He shone

9:25

his flashlight up at the ceiling to

9:28

see what was hitting him. It

9:30

was blood. Blood and

9:32

brain matter spattered the ceiling like

9:35

a grotesque mosaic

9:37

of torture.

9:39

It was a piece of skull and brain.

9:44

At

9:46

first, he was thinking, because there was a

9:48

storm, like the thought process must have

9:50

been, maybe there was a leaky roof. You

9:54

don't think immediately, oh, this is blood dripping

9:56

from the ceiling. And brain matter.

10:00

So to say the least, he was shocked.

10:03

Immediately he moved his flashlight more broadly across

10:06

the room. Now he's like, I need

10:08

to see what's going on here. Later

10:11

they're going to find out that both the power

10:13

and phone lines had been cut. So that's

10:15

why he couldn't just turn on the lights. Really?

10:18

Yes. Okay. So as he moved his

10:20

flashlight across the room, he

10:22

saw the bodies of the Spencer

10:25

family. He had walked into the

10:27

aftermath of a massacre. Four

10:30

men were bound before him. They

10:33

had all been shot. Even

10:35

if he had known them, he wouldn't have been

10:37

able to identify them though, because

10:40

the gunshot wounds that they had suffered made

10:43

their bodies unrecognizable.

10:47

Their faces or heads had

10:49

been completely

10:50

shattered.

10:53

That rookie officer would never

10:55

forget that night. It

10:58

was the worst sight that he would ever have to

11:00

see. And for the rest

11:02

of his life, he would have nightmares

11:05

about Valentine's Day.

11:07

I mean, I don't blame him. This

11:10

is unbelievable that this has

11:12

taken place in this trailer.

11:13

It is a

11:16

gruesome crime scene.

11:18

The only thing is...wait, hold on. You said they were tied

11:20

up?

11:22

Yes. They were tied up in their

11:24

bodies, lying on their stomachs, and their

11:26

hands were tied behind their back. Four boys.

11:30

Okay.

11:31

So, I mean, there are people missing here though,

11:33

right? Because where's the parents? Right. Or

11:35

is one of those...oh, you said four boys. Okay. So

11:38

yeah, the parents are missing? Parents are missing. That's

11:41

weird.

11:41

Yes. Well, there's a lot about this crime

11:44

scene that we have left to figure

11:46

out. Okay. But before we

11:48

get any further, we're going to take a break here

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Okay, let's get back to that crime

14:54

scene.

14:55

So as backup responded to the

14:57

scene, because obviously

14:59

after seeing that he's going to, after

15:02

definitely securing the trailer first and making

15:04

sure the person or persons

15:06

who did this weren't in the trailer, the

15:09

rookie officer is going to,

15:11

he's going to request some backup. That's a

15:13

good idea.

15:13

So as backup is

15:16

responding to the scene, they

15:18

noticed that an ambulance sped

15:20

past. The ambulance

15:22

was not headed for the trailer. They

15:25

knew that because everyone at the scene was

15:28

clearly dead, so they hadn't called for

15:30

one. The ambulance

15:32

was headed to the next property

15:34

over, and if the young state

15:37

trooper would have entered the house from the front

15:39

of the trailer, he would

15:41

have seen a troubling sight, a

15:44

blood trail. A blood

15:46

trail that traveled from the scene of

15:48

the murders to a neighbor's house,

15:52

a blood trail that signified the strength

15:54

that only a mother could muster when

15:57

she was trying to get justice.

15:59

for her children

16:02

because Betty Jane Spencer had

16:04

survived the tragedy that befell

16:07

her family.

16:08

Are you serious?

16:11

She'd gone to the neighbor's house and

16:14

it was actually the neighbors that

16:16

had made the first

16:17

phone call.

16:18

So there are going to be two 911 calls

16:21

that are placed that night by the neighbors. The

16:23

first was, hey we heard a whole bunch of

16:25

shots over at our neighbor's property

16:28

and

16:30

it was more than just the boys

16:32

messing around. It seemed like something weird

16:35

is going on there. So that was their first

16:37

phone call and then Betty Jane

16:40

arrives at their front door pounding

16:42

on it begging for help at 1 a.m.

16:45

So then they call 911 again and say we

16:47

need an ambulance because our neighbors

16:49

just showed up at our property.

16:51

Now that's terrifying for many

16:54

reasons obviously. But one of the ones that

16:57

I would be afraid of and now

16:59

New Fear Unlocked is

17:02

someone's banging at your door at 1 a.m. and someone's

17:04

trying to kill them and she's saying that her family

17:06

has been shot and can you

17:09

let me in I need help? Yeah. Like what do

17:11

you do? Like obviously you do it. But

17:13

like you

17:13

always say that you would do it right then like

17:16

you know sometimes your own self-preservation

17:18

takes over and you don't want to

17:20

let them in because let me tell you something

17:23

this is a sad reality of being a teacher in

17:25

America right now. But when

17:28

we do the training for like

17:30

school shootings they

17:32

actually train us like

17:36

if there's a student pounding on your door to get

17:38

in you can't let them

17:40

in because there have been cases

17:44

where the shooter is holding a student at

17:46

gunpoint and having them beg

17:49

for you to let them in. So now like it's

17:51

like I that it makes me want

17:53

to cry even thinking about it but it's like you

17:55

have a student who say you

17:58

know any any kids like a 15-year-old 15-year-old

18:00

is begging to come into the door during a school shooting

18:02

and you're not allowed to open that

18:04

door Right

18:05

because there's so much now

18:07

risk involved and now you're threatening everyone

18:09

else in the room Which is the same thing

18:11

if someone wants to come to your house Right, what do you do

18:14

if you had kids that are even you know,

18:16

like babies you're putting everyone in here

18:18

at risk as well So that's a very tricky

18:20

situation And you know at first

18:22

I would be like yeah, come on in like, you know, hurry

18:25

up grab the phone Let's do we have to do but

18:27

I see what you're saying, right?

18:28

Like you it's pending on what

18:31

side of the door you're on You know,

18:33

you're hoping that someone opens

18:35

up and helps you but on the other side of the door You're like,

18:38

why am I putting my family at risk too? It's like

18:40

it's a terrifying

18:41

situation. It really is

18:43

So they they do

18:45

let Betty in and I would like

18:47

to

18:47

think that we would say I

18:49

Think we would

18:51

Neighbors if you're listening We'll

18:53

let you in. Yeah, we'll let you in. We'll

18:55

let you in so the

18:57

blood trail Was

19:00

bright red in the snow and

19:02

that's what I said when I meant like there's more

19:04

to find out about this crime scene I mean

19:07

This story is just unbelievable So

19:12

according to the police scanners

19:14

the records of when all these calls

19:16

came in When the neighbors

19:19

called 911 to say

19:21

that Betty had arrived at their house That

19:24

was when the state trooper was just arriving

19:26

at the trailer to check the scene.

19:28

That's interesting. Yeah

19:31

So it was like as he arrived

19:33

the crime was literally still in motion Basically,

19:36

right and there could have been a possibility That

19:39

he could have came upon her Going from

19:42

one house to the other if he got there a few minutes early

19:44

and

19:44

if he entered from the other way because the

19:46

way That you enter the trailer is technically from

19:49

behind the front of it's kind

19:51

of like around

19:51

the other side Actually, we're saying

19:55

and there's also a possibility that he might have even

19:57

passed the killers on the way out

19:59

I mean, there is a possibility of that. Because

20:02

also I think the location is a little interesting as

20:04

far as like, it's off the beaten path, like

20:06

you said, there's no like, yeah, very remote. Right.

20:09

So it's like, whoever did this had to have known

20:11

that they were there. Um,

20:13

and like, I don't know, maybe canvas that area

20:15

to know how many people were inside, there's so

20:17

many things to think about when you start to, to

20:19

do that. Right. Well,

20:21

eventually after Betty was cared for

20:23

at the hospital and her wounds were dressed

20:27

and she filled in her panic and grief

20:29

stricken husband about what had happened to their

20:31

beautiful boys.

20:33

She was asked to recall the story

20:36

one more time for the detectives. Betty

20:39

did not mind telling the story again. She

20:42

was a strong woman. The

20:44

men who did this to her family were

20:46

emblazoned in her mind and

20:49

they would be there forever. She

20:51

wanted them caught and she

20:54

wanted them to pay for what

20:56

they had done. And

20:58

so her story began. She

21:01

had been in the living room that night with

21:03

her son, Greg, who was 22 years

21:05

old. Her

21:08

step sons, Reeve, 16,

21:11

Ralph, 14, were sleeping

21:13

in the next room. Her 17

21:16

year old stepson, Raymond, and

21:18

her husband Keith were away at work.

21:22

Now, although those boys were her step

21:24

sons, the younger ones, she

21:27

made no qualms about it that

21:29

they were her boys too. She

21:32

was the mother. She was their mother.

21:34

That's really sweet.

21:35

As they were watching the movie,

21:38

the house went dark because

21:40

the power was cut.

21:42

At first, she thought that maybe the power

21:44

had gone out because of the weather. Now,

21:46

remember there was supposed to be like a

21:49

crazy storm that night. It ended

21:51

up not being as crazy as everyone thought

21:53

it was, but it was definitely snowing.

21:56

Then they heard loud noises.

22:00

and presumably that was

22:02

the light being knocked out and you

22:04

guys know what else I won't recall

22:06

it. Then she said four

22:09

men burst in through the back

22:11

door and they were screaming

22:13

at her. Then she said four

22:15

men burst in through the back door and they

22:18

were screaming at her and Greg to get down

22:20

on the floor. Get your faces down

22:22

they kept screaming. Betty

22:25

said that she clung on to her son Greg,

22:27

terrified as two of the men ransacked

22:30

the home for anything of value

22:32

and the other two men

22:35

went into the room of her two

22:37

younger sons to grab them out

22:39

of bed. They brought

22:41

them down on the ground besides her

22:43

and her eldest son. As the boys

22:46

were having their hands tied behind their backs

22:49

for a short time Betty was brought into

22:51

her bedroom where they

22:53

told her to show them

22:56

where like her valuables were but they

22:58

really didn't have any so then she was brought

23:01

back out into the living room. Betty

23:03

pleaded with the men please don't hurt

23:06

my boys. As one of the

23:08

men was yelling at her to shut up they

23:10

were silenced by a noise coming

23:12

from outside the trailer. As

23:15

one of the men was yelling at her to shut up they

23:18

were silenced by a noise coming from

23:20

outside the trailer.

23:22

Betty said her heart sank. It

23:25

could be her son Raymond. He

23:27

was supposed to be coming home from work so

23:30

she yelled out Raymond is that

23:33

you? There was no response.

23:36

The men were silent

23:38

waiting to see how this was going to go down.

23:41

She yelled again Raymond is that

23:43

you? Yes he called

23:46

back confused. She

23:48

began to yell most likely

23:50

for him to run but

23:53

the men were faster. They

23:55

went outside and grabbed the 17 year

23:57

old boy and yanked him inside.

24:00

and brought him down to the ground next

24:02

to his brothers and tied his

24:04

hands behind his back like everyone

24:06

else's had been. Betty said

24:08

that there was one man who seemed to

24:10

be in control. Once

24:13

Raymond was tied up on the ground, he

24:15

motioned to the other men, a

24:17

motion that indicated to her that

24:20

he wanted them to shoot the family. Nothing

24:24

happened immediately, and then

24:26

he said it.

24:27

He gave the order

24:29

for them to open fire. And

24:32

they did. Betty

24:35

said that she heard the gunfire

24:36

all around her.

24:38

It was like flashes of lightning and

24:40

deafening thunder rumbling through

24:42

her home, stealing away everything

24:45

she loved in this world. She

24:48

watched on as all of her children

24:50

were shot. A storm

24:52

had certainly hit them that night,

24:55

but not the one they had been expecting. At

24:58

one point, she heard her son, Greg beside

25:01

her, yelling out in agony

25:03

as he was blasted with the bullets from

25:05

the men, sawed off

25:06

shotguns.

25:08

She thought she heard him say, as

25:11

his body was riddled with pellets, I'm

25:14

flying. Oh, God, I'm flying.

25:17

Because Greg had been yelling so loudly,

25:20

she said the man that she assumed to be

25:22

the leader of this group, straddled

25:24

his body, grabbed him

25:26

by his ponytail and

25:29

fired a shotgun into the back of

25:31

his head, basically spraying

25:33

the entire room with

25:36

his face, she said.

25:39

This is horrible. Yeah.

25:42

She said that because she was next to him, that

25:44

she felt the life drain from him and

25:47

like his yelling immediately stopped.

25:51

She then said she heard more gunfire

25:54

and she felt her flesh burning in

25:56

her shoulder and into her back.

25:59

It was her turn.

26:00

She waited for death to wash over

26:02

her, and she thought she

26:04

would be with her children. But death

26:07

did not come for Betty. She

26:10

explained to the detectives that she

26:12

was angry, that she

26:14

was so angry because she wanted to die

26:16

too, because she wanted to

26:18

be with her boys. She

26:20

lay there,

26:21

and she thought if she wasn't going to die,

26:24

then she wanted to get justice

26:26

for them.

26:27

That thought resonated with

26:29

her. That

26:31

end of Keith. She

26:33

lay on the ground as still as possible. Betty

26:36

could hear the blood pouring from

26:39

the bodies of her sons. Imagine

26:42

hearing that? No, I can't.

26:44

And one by one, the

26:46

men started walking down the line

26:49

and kicking the family members to see if they

26:51

were dead. And by the time

26:54

the one man got to her, before she

26:56

could even think how

26:58

she should react to him doing that, her

27:01

foot involuntarily kicked back

27:03

when he hit her.

27:06

Like a spasm almost?

27:08

Yeah.

27:09

And that's when they knew that she was alive. He

27:12

was like, hold on, hold on, this one's alive.

27:14

So the voice of the

27:16

leader was heard.

27:18

Killer, he said to someone. Betty

27:21

felt another man walk

27:23

up to her right in front

27:25

of her, and she heard a shot.

27:28

He had aimed at her and made

27:30

contact. They watched as

27:33

the top of Betty's head flew off.

27:36

Afterwards,

27:37

they all ran off into the night,

27:40

leaving utter devastation in their wake.

27:43

But Betty,

27:45

she wasn't dead. The men did

27:47

not know that she had been

27:50

wearing a wig.

27:51

We saw thee, oh, thee thought.

27:54

They blew the top of her head off. But

27:56

it was her wig coming off. They

27:58

did graze the top. of her head of course

28:01

but they knocked her wig off

28:03

and it was probably dark as well so

28:05

they thought yep Wow

28:08

okay wild right

28:10

this is crazy this

28:12

is so sad because this

28:15

poor woman has watched her children

28:17

die right in front of her and then

28:20

has attacked herself and left her

28:22

dead yeah you know and

28:24

and I think what makes us a little bit more eerie than

28:26

other cases that we've come maybe covered is just

28:29

because there's been other

28:31

massacres that have happened but everyone

28:33

died here we have someone that lived

28:35

through one yeah and now you really

28:38

truly understand when these things happen

28:40

how bad it is like how really

28:43

bad it is like an eyewitness account

28:45

of that

28:46

I think that's a really good point to

28:48

make like when you have

28:50

the Liska or the kettie

28:53

cabin murders

28:55

like even what happens with

28:57

the Manson family or any

29:00

family massacre you're like wow this

29:03

is the chaos that existed or

29:06

even just what we covered with the Brandi Peters case

29:09

like the

29:09

ones that aren't like living in infamy

29:12

right this is the

29:14

devastation and chaos that these poor

29:16

people experienced as

29:19

they had to watch their

29:19

family members die around them right because

29:22

I think that we could talk about it anyone

29:24

can talk about it and like know what

29:27

the crime scene looks like and things like that but

29:29

there is a depth that is never really

29:32

reached unless there's a survivor

29:34

that's telling the story and has a recollection

29:36

of that story like this is chilling

29:39

to like the bone right like

29:40

the things that she heard Greg saying

29:42

like I'm flying and then she heard

29:44

the blood pouring from her son's bodies

29:47

like oh my god

29:49

yeah this is

29:50

wild

29:51

really sad

29:53

so once she knew that all

29:55

the men had gone Betty

29:57

got the strength to stand up She

30:00

had excruciating pain in her shoulder,

30:03

back, and the top of her head where she

30:05

had been shot. She tried to

30:07

get to the phone, but when she did

30:09

she realized that the men must have cut the power

30:12

in the phone lines, so she had no

30:14

phone. She would have to make it

30:16

to her neighbor's house to get help. She

30:19

was in shock, but she had one

30:21

goal. One thought kept

30:24

ringing in her ears that she had

30:26

to get justice for the boys. She

30:28

had to tell the police, and she

30:30

thought, like, what if I bleed to death? So

30:33

that's why she had this sense of urgency. She

30:36

stumbled out into the cold snowy

30:38

night, leaving behind her

30:41

a bright red trail of blood

30:43

in the pure white snow. Betty

30:46

walked half a mile with

30:49

no shoes on. Eventually

30:51

she made it to her neighbor's house. She

30:54

pounded on the door and screamed for

30:56

help. They did. From

30:59

there they called to

31:01

get her an ambulance. They

31:04

told her that they had already called the police before

31:06

she got there, so that the police should be at the

31:08

house. But she knew

31:10

it was going to be

31:11

of no help because her sons,

31:13

they were dead already. She

31:16

was freezing and in shock from blood

31:18

loss. It was incredible

31:20

that she had been shot like she was

31:23

at such close range, and she

31:25

had the strength to get to the neighbor's house.

31:28

The neighbors who helped her said they were in just

31:30

as much shock when they saw

31:31

her pounding on their door, completely

31:34

covered in blood.

31:36

The morning following the massacre, the

31:38

news of what had happened the night before spread

31:40

like wildfire around the community.

31:43

It sent shock waves that still reverberate

31:46

through the town every time Valentine's

31:48

Day rolls around. Charlie

31:50

Bollinger learned what

31:53

had happened at his friend's house from a classmate.

31:56

He had said something to his friend about Reeve

31:58

not being in school that day. And

32:00

his friend said to him, you haven't heard

32:03

what happened? And he told

32:05

Charlie that the whole family had been

32:07

murdered. Charlie

32:09

said that he didn't believe it. He

32:11

said that couldn't be true because I just saw

32:13

everybody the day before,

32:15

yesterday. It

32:17

had to be a different family that it happened

32:19

to.

32:21

But it hadn't been.

32:24

Charlie was devastated by the loss of his

32:26

friend and such an amazing family.

32:30

One that he felt like he was a part of.

32:34

But he was even more unnerved by the fact

32:37

that it could have been him too. That's

32:40

very true.

32:41

I mean, because he was going to spend the night there. And

32:43

if his mother would have let him, I mean,

32:46

that could have been him too. He would have been dead. Which is

32:48

another reason why I have

32:50

another fear that I didn't know that I had. Now

32:52

that I have to think about when I have kids one day, do I

32:54

let the kids stay over someone else's house?

32:56

Sleepovers are now controversial.

33:00

And having been to many in my life, I understand

33:03

why.

33:04

You know, I have to tell you, my parents didn't let me.

33:06

They didn't let you sleep over? No, never.

33:08

My dad was like, get out of the house.

33:09

I mean, maybe one time

33:13

or two, max. And

33:15

it was right across the street. So

33:17

it's close. It was close. But yeah, they didn't

33:19

like sleepovers. We were never allowed to be

33:21

the sleepover house.

33:21

It was like, you can go to one,

33:24

but nobody's staying here.

33:26

Oh, yeah, we could. That wouldn't have been good either.

33:29

So I think my family just did not like

33:31

sleepovers. I

33:31

feel like when we have kids all feel

33:33

safe being the sleepover house.

33:36

Although people might not want their

33:38

kids to sleep over our house because we're

33:40

true

33:40

crime people. But not everybody knows

33:42

that. They're

33:43

going to think we're weirdos. You think that?

33:45

What if they find out?

33:46

And they're like, oh, you're not allowed to play with

33:48

those kids. Oh, my God.

33:50

They talk about bad things,

33:52

evil things. Yeah, like a kid. They for

33:54

real. What if they actually do think that?

33:56

Oh, if you're unlocked.

33:57

Oh, well, I guess kids.

33:59

I guess our kids aren't gonna have friends. Actually,

34:02

probably better that way.

34:05

Okay, so from

34:07

her hospital bed, Betty was

34:09

able to work with a sketch artist and

34:11

give the investigators

34:13

four sketches to work with.

34:15

She guaranteed that those

34:17

were the men that had murdered her family. Their

34:20

faces would be burned in her memory forever.

34:24

And she had done a great job. The

34:26

sketches were detailed and impressive.

34:29

The detectives believed that they would get calls

34:31

about them soon, because the

34:34

second they released this to the public, like

34:36

these weren't like vague sketches. These

34:38

were the people.

34:40

This wasn't like when they do a sketch. They

34:42

smiley face. Come on, dude. Like, yeah. Like

34:44

what? Right.

34:46

But the detectives knew that this

34:49

was going to be a complicated one

34:51

to solve. Based on

34:53

Betty's story, it seemed like there was

34:55

no motive. The men

34:57

burst into the home in the middle of the night.

35:00

They ransacked the house, but they didn't

35:02

take anything. They weren't looking for anything

35:04

specific. They

35:07

just executed the family. So

35:10

they were kind of wondering and

35:12

going down the avenue of why. Could

35:16

somebody have a vendetta against

35:18

one of the parents, one of the boys?

35:22

But this did seem a little professional

35:24

to them.

35:25

I agree. The only thing

35:27

I actually had a question about actually, okay,

35:30

was where was the husband

35:32

here? He was at work. He worked nights.

35:34

Okay. Because

35:35

you're right. It does sound professional.

35:38

I think they're onto something, because for

35:40

them to cut the power, to know

35:43

where those people were located, it was a tucked

35:45

in house that

35:48

wouldn't have been seen just by driving

35:50

past the street. This had to

35:52

be something that was planned, and it was executed

35:55

to the most

35:57

efficient way. to

36:00

leave nobody alive. So

36:02

this is seems a little professional. Maybe

36:04

the husband owed money or I

36:06

guess the possibilities in the rabbit hole is endless.

36:09

Well don't forget when

36:12

I first like introduced the

36:14

rookie officer, there had

36:16

been for the past week a series

36:18

of home invasions. There was no murders

36:21

but the police were thinking could this be connected?

36:24

Could it be to use it to

36:26

their advantage?

36:28

Like you're saying like pull off these home invasions

36:30

and then so that'll be distracting against

36:33

like our real targets?

36:35

A possibility, yeah. Okay well

36:37

guess what?

36:38

What? I'm gonna switch things up

36:41

this episode.

36:41

Okay. And

36:42

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret.

36:44

Tell me.

36:46

The man responsible for it all.

36:48

The guy everyone in the county was now looking

36:51

for. He was hiding right

36:54

under their noses. 23 year

36:57

old Roger Drollinger

37:00

sat in a courtroom on February

37:03

15th

37:04

the very next day.

37:06

The guy who did this showed

37:09

up for court the next day. Calm,

37:11

cool, collected like

37:14

he hadn't just been the one

37:16

who orchestrated the murder of an entire family.

37:19

But what was the reason? We'll get

37:21

there.

37:22

So Drollinger had been charged with

37:24

many drug related offenses including

37:28

trafficking and selling to an undercover

37:30

police officer. Because

37:32

of his past record he had been facing

37:35

some serious jail time. 40 to 50

37:38

years

37:38

to be exact.

37:40

So while every law enforcement officer was

37:42

out looking for this guy he was

37:45

in the Park County courthouse next

37:48

to a lot of officers.

37:51

How wild is that? That is wild actually.

37:54

So I know what you're asking.

37:56

Why? Why would he do this?

38:00

Unfortunately, this case

38:03

is as senseless as it is tragic.

38:07

There is no why, just

38:09

a who. And that

38:11

who is Roger Drollinger. Drollinger

38:15

was a bad man. He

38:17

was raised in a wealthy family in the

38:19

nearby community of Wayne Town, but

38:22

he had grown up to be the local drug

38:24

dealer. And

38:27

Drollinger had control over a ragtag

38:30

group

38:30

of criminals.

38:32

One newspaper called them his

38:34

own band of vicious degenerates. To

38:37

these men, Drollinger

38:38

was their

38:40

powerful and charismatic leader.

38:43

It was almost like he had gathered a cult

38:46

of criminals.

38:48

They listened to everything he said, and they

38:50

wanted to desperately impress him and

38:53

do right by him. To

38:55

make matters worse, Drollinger was

38:57

obsessed with

38:59

and felt inspired by the crimes

39:02

of Charles Manson.

39:03

He one day wanted his name

39:06

and Manson's name to be uttered in the

39:09

same breath. It was a recipe

39:12

for disaster.

39:13

This guy's just doing it for the clout, trying

39:16

to like be up with the

39:19

worst people possible.

39:21

And because it excites him.

39:23

That's ridiculous and disgusting. Well,

39:26

in the week leading up to the murders of

39:28

the Spencer family, Drollinger

39:31

and his three followers had committed numerous

39:34

home invasions.

39:36

Okay, so we're getting somewhere. They

39:38

had been the ones to do it.

39:40

They liked to terrorize their

39:42

victims.

39:43

At first, it would just

39:45

be like a ransacking of their homes.

39:48

They would tie up the residents and steal what they

39:51

could. But as the home invasions

39:53

went on, they got more violent. The

39:56

residents would be beaten and toyed

39:59

with. and Drollinger loved

40:01

it. It was exciting for him to

40:03

cause pain to others. Drollinger

40:07

lacked empathy, guilt,

40:09

and had a very egocentric way of thinking.

40:13

Traits that would later cause him to be diagnosed

40:16

as a psychopath. For

40:19

the other men in his group, the home

40:21

invasions were enough. They

40:23

got high off the thrill of the

40:25

crimes.

40:26

In their lives they felt powerless, lost,

40:29

and worthless. But

40:31

when they were terrorizing those people,

40:34

for once they felt like they had the power. It

40:37

was fun for them. Plus,

40:39

they thought as a bonus

40:42

that they would get money and sometimes

40:43

find pot.

40:45

But for Drollinger, it was never

40:48

enough. And as his court

40:50

date loomed closer and closer, he knew

40:53

he would not be able to do that stuff anymore.

40:57

Inflicting pain on others for his excitement,

41:01

it was his high. And he craved

41:03

a larger high. And

41:06

this is why we saw an escalation in violence

41:08

in the home invasions. And

41:11

that's what brings us to the murder of the

41:13

Spencer family. Drollinger

41:15

was supposed to report to court

41:17

the next day where he could possibly

41:19

go to jail for decades. So

41:22

this was going to be Drollinger's last thrill.

41:25

And this time

41:26

it'd be a thrill count.

41:28

I do find it very interesting

41:32

that they did escalate as

41:34

far as they did so

41:36

quickly.

41:37

Well, they wanted to impress

41:39

him. They wanted to do everything for him. He

41:42

was giving them a sense of belonging.

41:45

Like very similar to that of a cult

41:47

leader was he picked these people

41:49

because they were easily influenced

41:51

and because they were going to listen to everything

41:54

that he said. I mean,

41:56

although they are

41:58

criminals and murderers,

41:59

they were

42:02

controlled, coercively controlled by him.

42:05

And Drollinger

42:07

is just that.

42:10

He's a psychopath.

42:12

So his whole goal was to eventually

42:14

kill, to be a murderer.

42:17

But he had to get those other men to that

42:20

point, which is why he did

42:22

the slow escalation

42:23

through the home invasion. See,

42:25

what someone like him is actually incredibly scary,

42:28

because I think that he was able to look at

42:30

these people that he was gathering, look

42:33

for the weaknesses and exploit them. I

42:35

think that's probably the scariest thing, because you

42:38

have people that might not go to

42:40

that kind of extent, or even imagine

42:42

doing something like that, but he can convince

42:45

someone through a flaw of their character alone. Right.

42:47

And he's only 23 years old doing

42:49

this. That's insane.

42:52

Well, on February 13, Drollinger

42:55

had driven past the Spencer trailer. And

42:58

there he saw many cars parked.

43:01

If you remember, there was one extra car

43:03

there too, because Reeve had his

43:05

friend sleeping over. Well,

43:07

because there were so many cars there, Drollinger

43:10

thought that the trailer would be the perfect place

43:12

to hit, because there were so many people

43:15

to kill. How crazy

43:17

is that? Usually criminals scout

43:19

out easy locations. This

43:21

man is seriously trying to find a home with the

43:24

most victims as possible.

43:26

I mean, it's sick and twisted, but

43:28

he has numbers of his own. And

43:30

he's probably thinking, this is off the beaten path.

43:33

If I do it, I'll probably get away with

43:35

it. Right.

43:37

So he told his crew what

43:40

he wanted to do. And

43:42

they had all agreed to do it with him. Now,

43:45

I'm not taking responsibility away from the other men,

43:48

because they do have control

43:50

over what they do. And

43:52

they did choose to do this with him.

43:55

But Drollinger was a bit nervous that

43:57

the men, when it came down to it, were going to kill

43:59

him. to back down and not help

44:02

him fulfill his thrill killer

44:04

fantasy. So he made them

44:06

all take a blood oath that

44:09

they will vow all to commit

44:11

murder that night, that

44:13

all of them will fire their sought-off shotguns

44:16

at the victims. As

44:19

they swore their oath, Drollinger told

44:22

them, either you kill

44:25

or get killed.

44:27

Oh wow, so he took it to the most

44:29

extreme that he could take

44:32

it. Right.

44:33

To further ensure that these murders took

44:35

place, Drollinger insisted

44:37

that none of the men put bandanas

44:40

over their faces. For

44:42

all the previous home invasions, they'd all worn

44:44

bandanas, and that's how they weren't

44:46

identified. But he told

44:48

the men that this time it doesn't matter if they see

44:51

you, because we're going to kill them. I

44:54

see. So he's just making sure that what

44:56

he wants to get done will get done, because

44:59

at the end of the day it has

44:59

to. I also think it has a little bit to

45:02

do with the fact that he knows that

45:04

regardless if he doesn't get called for this, he's going

45:06

away for decades. Exactly. So

45:09

I think it's more of his egotistical mind

45:11

thinking more about himself than anything else. Than

45:14

these guys. Yeah.

45:15

As the men drove away from the devastation

45:18

that they left in their wake, the

45:20

other three men that had been with him that night,

45:23

Michael Wright,

45:24

David Smith and Daniel

45:27

Stonebreaker said that

45:29

Drollinger was high on what happened. He

45:32

relived the moments of all of the victims

45:34

death with relish, and he

45:36

was excited about all of the blood spatter

45:38

that he had on his clothing. But

45:41

his complete victory was short lived

45:43

when the group heard over the police scanner

45:45

that they had, that Betty had

45:48

survived.

45:48

That's how they found out? Yep. Oh

45:52

my God. Now

45:53

this is scary. Because

45:55

Drollinger didn't know that Betty had gone to

45:57

the neighbor's house, she... They

46:00

heard on the police scanner that one

46:03

state trooper

46:03

was going to respond to the shots fired.

46:06

So in Drollinger's mind,

46:09

he thought the one state trooper showed up and

46:11

found Betty alive. So for

46:14

a moment he said, let's turn around and kill

46:16

them both,

46:17

meaning kill Betty and the state trooper. But

46:20

then he was like, no, forget it. It's

46:21

probably back up on the way already. So

46:23

he decided not to. But he was going to go back

46:25

and kill them both.

46:27

That is certainly one scenario,

46:29

but think about this too. Think about

46:32

if they heard it on the scanner. They could have turned around

46:34

and then saw the trail leading to

46:37

the neighbor's house, and they could have carried it out there

46:39

as well. They could have continued their war

46:41

path to the neighbor's house. They could have.

46:44

To take out everybody that would have been

46:46

a witness to it or whatever you want to

46:48

call it.

46:49

And that would have been really sad.

46:50

That would have been even worse. And

46:52

the reason why there's calls for pause when someone

46:54

comes knocking on your door. Exactly.

46:57

So Roger Drollinger ended the night

46:59

by returning to the home that he shared

47:01

with his wife and three children and

47:04

getting some sleep. Because

47:06

after all, he did have court in the

47:08

morning. At his hearing, Drollinger

47:11

was found guilty but avoided

47:13

prompt incarceration. So

47:16

he was found guilty, but they're like, we won't arrest him yet.

47:18

And there's a reason for it.

47:21

He had been sentenced to 25 to 40

47:23

years, but was allowed to get his

47:25

affairs in order with his children and

47:28

then turn himself in. This

47:30

is something he was able to do because

47:32

he was

47:33

out on bond.

47:35

His father had put up the family farm

47:37

as collateral so he could be free

47:39

during the trial to

47:42

spend time with his children

47:44

before he went to prison.

47:45

But instead, Roger

47:47

Drollinger was

47:49

committing violent B and E's

47:51

and a quadruple homicide.

47:54

Wally's waiting for trial. Yes.

47:57

So

47:57

after the sentencing, the four men

47:59

met up again. And Jollinger

48:01

instructed them all to go into hiding

48:03

because of the sketches. They were a very

48:06

accurate representation of them all Jollinger

48:10

himself skipped town and

48:12

went on the run to

48:13

hell with his family. I guess

48:15

yeah and his dad's farm as

48:17

well Yeah, great.

48:19

So all of the men left the state of Indiana

48:22

All of them except for Daniel

48:24

stonebreaker who is just

48:27

Well, I guess it's

48:30

This is what I always have to say. It's good that criminals

48:33

are stupid That

48:35

is

48:36

one saving grace that we have we can

48:38

relish in that fact. Yes stonebreaker

48:41

completely

48:41

blew everyone's cover

48:43

by Bragging to

48:45

one of his friends that he had

48:47

been there when the murders were committed

48:50

But it wasn't his friend

48:53

that told on him

48:54

When stonebreaker was telling his friend the story

48:57

the man sitting next to them

48:59

at the bar

49:00

Was an undercover police officer?

49:03

Good Good

49:05

for us because you know, we need a win here, you

49:07

know, this has been a terrible crime against

49:10

his family You know and so

49:12

much loss involved good. I'm glad

49:14

that We get a win here

49:16

and the cop heard the conversation. Yes, I'm glad

49:18

to

49:19

well

49:20

here the whole conversation and stonebreaker

49:23

was arrested as Soon

49:26

as he was done with the story about

49:28

the murders He was brought in to State

49:30

Trooper headquarters and he was interrogated

49:34

they had him

49:35

and He had basically already confessed

49:38

and he looked just like one of the men in the sketches

49:42

He caved and he confessed to it

49:44

all. He gave away the names of

49:46

his accomplices and why they

49:48

did it Just for the thrill

49:50

of it all

49:52

Stonebreaker admitted

49:53

that they had waited for

49:55

Keith Spencer to leave for work.

49:58

So the family would be more vulnerable

50:01

That's so sad.

50:03

They then cut the phone wire, they

50:06

hit the light with the rock, and

50:08

then they burst through the door. After

50:11

the confession charges were brought against

50:14

Drollinger and the other two men, Michael

50:16

Wright and David Smith, and

50:19

a national manhunt began,

50:21

because if you remember, the men left the state. Yeah.

50:25

Wright and Smith were quickly found and

50:27

arrested, but Drollinger

50:29

was able to evade police detection.

50:32

In April of 1977, almost

50:35

two months of him being on the run, Drollinger

50:38

concocted another way that he could

50:40

gain further notoriety by

50:42

making a spectacle of his surrender.

50:45

Drollinger, along with his family's lawyer,

50:48

called a press conference. He

50:50

wanted attention and he wanted

50:53

to be a national figure, like

50:55

his idol,

50:56

Charles Manson.

50:58

With dozens of cameras pointed on

51:00

him, Drollinger sat next

51:02

to his wife, who was cradling their youngest

51:05

child, obviously in an attempt

51:07

to make him look like a family man, and it

51:09

was there that he declared his innocence and

51:12

surrendered to the police. In

51:14

all of their trials, Betty Jane

51:16

Spencer got her wish. The

51:19

reason why she fought so hard, she

51:22

got to testify at all of their

51:24

trials. She looked them in the

51:27

eye and pointed to them as

51:29

she told the jury that it was them,

51:32

that they were the ones who had killed her bulls,

51:35

her beautiful bulls.

51:37

When she identified Roger Drollinger

51:40

at his trial, she pointed

51:42

at him and she looked at him saying

51:44

it was him and he

51:46

said to her, you bitch,

51:50

during the trial.

51:59

Although that's such a

52:01

horrific thing for him to do, I'm

52:03

so glad that he did it because in that moment,

52:06

Betty won. Like she

52:09

got to him.

52:10

Yes. You

52:12

know? Yes. So I like that he revealed

52:15

that she got one over on

52:17

him there. She was able to flip it

52:19

and like weaponize it. Yep. In

52:21

her favor, which is so good.

52:23

Yeah.

52:25

And although he took everything from

52:27

her. In that moment, she took everything

52:29

from him. That's exactly right. Yeah.

52:32

And everybody there got to see the real him right there. Yes. I

52:35

mean, I really think they got to see the real him

52:37

when he called for a press conference, but

52:39

you know what I mean. Yeah.

52:42

In the end, all four men were

52:45

given life sentences for their crimes. Good.

52:49

On January 29th, 2014,

52:52

Roger Drollinger was found dead in his

52:54

cell at the Wabash Valley Correctional

52:57

Facility. He was said to

52:59

have died from natural causes. He

53:02

was in a maximum security prison

53:04

and because of like incidents

53:06

with other inmates,

53:08

he lived

53:10

alone because

53:11

I guess he had had a lot of run-ins with other people,

53:14

as you can imagine, because he's a crazy person.

53:17

Right. David Smith and Daniel Stonebreaker

53:20

are housed at the Pendleton Correctional

53:22

Facility and Michael Wright

53:24

is housed at the Pendleton Treatment Unit

53:27

for mental health reasons.

53:29

In 2001, David

53:32

Smith gave an

53:34

interview with the Journal Review in which

53:37

he recounted his version of what happened that

53:39

night. In it, he stated that Drollinger

53:42

had a sick control over them, that

53:44

they hadn't wanted to murder those people and

53:47

that they felt as if they had to. He

53:50

also said that he was firing above the

53:52

family and that when Drollinger

53:54

saw him do that, he forced his

53:56

gun down, which was when Betty

53:58

had gotten shot in the shoulder.

54:01

But I mean we can't be sure of his account

54:03

for a few reasons. First, he's completely

54:06

downplaying

54:07

the role that he played

54:09

in the murders and that's something that we commonly

54:11

see with criminals, especially when

54:13

they're involved in group crimes that

54:16

when they go on to make these

54:18

confessions, they're going to always try and minimize

54:20

their own role. And

54:23

it's also 24 years after the event. So

54:27

memory isn't the best sometimes what

54:29

the mind does to preserve

54:32

itself and as a, you

54:33

know, just a defense mechanism as we

54:35

do also minimize our roles

54:37

in some of the bad things that happen in our lives.

54:40

I agree. So

54:43

that I don't know about, but I will

54:46

include in the show notes a link to the interview

54:48

that he gave with the journal there.

54:51

Yeah, I mean, I think regardless of

54:53

any of that, I mean, they can make all the statements that they want.

54:56

I mean, they were all involved in a heinous act

54:58

where an entire family was butchered

55:01

in a house for

55:04

no reason at all.

55:05

And they knew that that was the plan. It wasn't

55:07

like this is another home invasion where no

55:09

one else had died. Like

55:11

Joel and Jer made it very clear for killing everybody

55:14

in this house. Right. There's

55:16

no information to suggest that they

55:18

were there for one thing and then all of a sudden,

55:21

Dylan just said, all right, go ahead, shoot them. I'm telling

55:23

you to shoot them. And they're like, what? I thought we're here

55:25

to steal things. Like it's not even like that

55:28

at all. Right.

55:30

Betty Jane Spencer went on to become

55:32

a victim rights activist and

55:34

eventually was honored at a special White

55:36

House ceremony by President Ronald Reagan.

55:40

She died with 80 pellets

55:42

still lodged in her body from that horrific

55:44

night in 2004 of natural

55:48

causes. It's

55:50

really sad. I am glad

55:52

that she was an activist and I'm glad

55:54

that she was able to get justice for her

55:57

children. You know, and I'm, you know,

55:59

I'm just. I know she's passed

56:01

away now, but I'm glad at least she's with

56:04

her family now again like she wanted to you know

56:06

That's really sad. Yeah That's

56:09

a rough one, right? Oh, yeah

56:11

like that is just so wild

56:14

that I think that

56:17

To have an account like you said I think that's the biggest

56:19

thing to pull from it because now moving forward

56:21

when we do talk about these Family

56:25

massacres or even like a family

56:27

annihilator situation now

56:30

we know the chaos of the scene

56:32

Yeah, which I don't think a lot of us

56:35

really understand right? I mean

56:37

you can never truly understand what I mean is the insight

56:40

into that yes I don't think we've always get

56:42

the best picture of that, but here we do You

56:45

know and it's worse than we could have ever imagined

56:48

100% and I think the last thing I want to say too because we didn't really

56:50

talk about it but I think that you

56:53

know this as Horrible and

56:55

tragic as it was for Betty to witness

56:57

everything that she witnessed and you know

57:00

And all of that you also have to think about the

57:02

husband too. I mean he I mean

57:05

to think that he might feel responsible

57:07

because he left and he did his Responsibility to

57:09

go to work and they took advantage of that.

57:11

He wasn't there. You know, he must feel this Overwhelming

57:15

guilt that not only did he lose all his

57:17

children, but also what happened to Betty

57:19

in the process, too So I guess

57:21

that must be hard as well.

57:23

I'm sure both of them had

57:25

Felt that way and felt

57:26

a certain amount of survivor's guilt. Yeah,

57:29

but her determination to seek

57:31

justice for her kids It

57:33

just it speaks volumes to like the love

57:35

and oh, yeah, you know as a mother, you know

57:38

It's intense very emotional. Yes

57:42

Well before we say goodbye we want to

57:44

say thank you to our newest supporters

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57:49

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57:55

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57:57

crime couple so we want to say

58:00

Thank you so much to Kelton Niels, Rachel,

58:04

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58:06

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58:10

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58:13

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58:18

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58:31

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58:33

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58:36

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58:40

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58:42

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58:43

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58:48

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58:51

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58:52

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58:54

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58:58

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59:01

and Monica. Thank you guys so

59:03

much for joining and again we hope

59:06

you're enjoying and until next

59:08

time guys don't park next to vans.

59:10

Bye guys. Bye.

59:28

you