0:00

is Hidden Killers Week in review. And

0:02

look back at the most prolific stories of the

0:04

week. This

0:06

is Hidden Killers with

0:08

Tony Bruski. Yeah,

0:11

Karen Reed. We're talking about that

0:14

again today. Toxic

0:16

relationships specifically. The

0:18

narcissist playbook. It is

0:20

almost painfully predictable

0:22

gaslighting manipulation, victim playing

0:24

and recruiting flying

0:26

monkeys. who help them

0:28

attack or discredit anyone who

0:30

dares oppose them. Karen

0:33

Reed is accused of the tragic death of

0:35

John O 'Keefe, and from

0:37

the interesting 10 ,000

0:39

-foot perspective seems

0:41

to be following this

0:43

playbook page by

0:45

page. from controlled narratives

0:47

and portraying herself as a

0:50

whistleblower, blower hero to weaponizing

0:52

her supporters as flying monkeys

0:54

against critics. Karen's tactics raised

0:56

some pretty big red flags.

0:58

But how can we recognize

1:00

these toxic behaviors clearly, especially

1:02

when they hide behind circles

1:04

of innocence and conspiracy claims?

1:06

Some psychotherapist, Yvonne Scott, is

1:08

joining us to untangle this

1:10

messy psychology behind Karen Reed's

1:12

alleged narcissistic traits. We cannot,

1:15

of course, die. no sir or

1:17

say she is by any means but

1:19

we can say hmm this behavior seems to

1:21

kind of resemble this type of behavior

1:23

and let you guys be the judge

1:25

but that's kind of where it's at

1:27

this is all kind of opinion -based

1:29

and conjecture uh shivan when we're looking

1:31

at uh this and and just kind

1:33

of what i've been seeing as just

1:35

kind of textbook playbook stuff

1:37

when it comes to narcissistic behavior,

1:39

especially coming out of a narcissistically

1:41

abusive relationship. I'm speaking on general

1:43

terms. I'm not saying she was

1:46

in one with John O 'Keeffe, but

1:48

if she was theoretically, this

1:50

seems to be following a lot of it,

1:52

not just in the terms of that the relationship,

1:54

you know, ended in the breakup and all

1:56

the things that go along with that and that

1:58

type of dynamic, but John's dead. It

2:01

feels like she's kind of following it

2:03

almost like He was still alive

2:05

in terms of the deflection and victim

2:07

blaming and the flying monkeys. What's

2:09

your thoughts on this case as we

2:11

dive into this conversation? You

2:14

know, you can certainly read narcissistic

2:16

traits here. I think you put

2:18

that really well. And one

2:20

of the things about narcissism as

2:22

with most things in psychology, it exists

2:24

on a spectrum. And

2:27

so you find some people that

2:29

are extremely narcissistic and other people

2:31

that are mildly narcissistic, but that's

2:33

a personality disorder in the cluster

2:35

B section. And as you and

2:37

I talk so often, the cluster

2:39

B people are the intense dramatic

2:42

people who cause a lot of

2:44

trouble in society. And

2:46

the other personality trait

2:48

that's cluster B that jumps

2:50

out at me is

2:53

the borderline personality, because the

2:55

borderline is characterized by

2:57

intense dramatic romantic relationships with

2:59

a lot of jealousy

3:01

and rage episodes. And

3:03

that was what when

3:06

we got the list of

3:08

those, you know, 53

3:10

angry, verbally abusive text messages,

3:13

That looks so borderline to me,

3:15

even more so than narcissistic. But

3:17

as with most things in the

3:19

cluster B categories, you can

3:21

have traits that are blended

3:23

from these different disorders. One

3:26

could be narcissistic

3:28

personality, or even narcissistic

3:30

personality disorder. One

3:32

could be borderline. One could be both,

3:34

essentially, and have... One could have traits

3:36

of both, and they may not meet... And

3:39

as you said, we don't know this unless

3:41

you sit down and do an assessment with

3:43

the person to get their entire history and

3:45

look at all these things. But

3:47

one can certainly have traits from

3:49

narcissism and traits from borderline.

3:52

And so that's kind of what

3:54

jumped out for me. And we're not

3:56

saying that the Karen is this by

3:58

any means. It's just a discussion of

4:00

the topic of what these

4:02

traits are. My point

4:04

on this is it doesn't make her

4:07

a killer. No, all.

4:09

If she has these traits. But

4:12

it certainly, it

4:14

explains a lot of things. It explains a

4:17

lot of the reactions that we see

4:19

that otherwise can kind of feel chaotic and

4:21

out there like, what are you doing? Until

4:23

you kind of put it

4:25

to the roadmap of these definitions,

4:28

then I go, oh, this is

4:31

why. the reaction is like

4:33

this. And you can almost predict

4:35

reactions based on those principles,

4:37

which is what I've been finding

4:39

very interesting as I break

4:41

this case down and look at

4:43

the relationship with John O 'Keefe

4:45

and Karen Reed. And there's

4:47

a lot to break down here.

4:50

Karen's public narrative about this

4:52

whole thing pretty

4:55

much from the beginning well slightly after

4:57

the beginning before she you know

4:59

after she was saying I think I

5:01

might have hit him I could

5:03

have I might have clipped him and

5:05

um he didn't look mortally wounded

5:07

to me so a lot of kind

5:09

of damning things at the beginning

5:11

we get to a lot of contradictions

5:13

with Karen Reid uh specifically about

5:15

the the night in question where everything

5:17

happened a narrative that begins with

5:19

not even remembering dropping him off to

5:21

then Oh, I dropped him off

5:23

and I went home to I dropped him

5:25

off. I waited there and I saw

5:27

him get up to the door and

5:29

stick his head in. Then it's I

5:32

got what was there. Listen to the

5:34

music for a while. Listen to you

5:36

too, specifically. And then saw him

5:38

get in the house and either A, I

5:40

thought he was OK and he's going to go

5:42

in there and I'm feeling sick. So I'm

5:44

going to go home to I'm really angry at

5:46

him and I waited 10 minutes and left

5:48

in anger. all of those things.

5:51

And she was assuming he was in there having

5:53

sex with someone. And

5:56

that's such a borderline thing. And then

5:58

the other piece of it, because people

6:00

are complicated, you throw

6:02

in alcohol use disorder, which

6:04

removes all ability to filter

6:06

what we say when people

6:08

are drunk, they're unfiltered and

6:10

more prone to this emotional. instability.

6:15

But there's a lot that

6:17

seems so odd. And

6:19

yes, when you use the term

6:21

flying monkeys, again, not a clinical

6:23

term, but a social movement, this

6:25

thing about everybody defending her and

6:27

seeing her as this whistleblower and

6:29

crusader for justice and all of

6:31

that, it has a really bizarre

6:33

quality. That's, I think, what makes

6:35

this case so much of a

6:37

circus. My question on

6:40

that is, I mean, Her narrative has

6:42

changed so many times. And

6:44

now we've seen the judge is going

6:46

to let all those clips from all

6:48

those interviews into this trial, how they're

6:50

going to be presented. That's up for

6:52

anyone's guess. But if the jury is

6:54

able to see them, they're going to

6:56

see her contradicting herself left and right

6:58

with all these public interviews. We

7:00

certainly do know that that

7:02

narcissists, the narrative and their

7:04

image is bar none, the

7:06

top thing on their list,

7:08

no matter what, above kids,

7:10

above Anything and everything,

7:12

really, above others' well -being, above

7:14

anyone else's reputation. It doesn't matter

7:17

as long as their narrative

7:19

is the one that is what

7:21

people are believing. But

7:23

they don't seem to really get. that,

7:25

you know, people can compare past narratives.

7:28

They can compare the past things that you've

7:30

said. And it's not like this is

7:32

something where an opinion can change of, well,

7:34

I think he did this or I

7:36

think he did that. It's, it's just flat

7:38

out stating fact of what she saw or

7:40

did not see. And that doesn't

7:42

change. I mean, that's fact that does

7:45

not change. How,

7:47

how is it that they, they

7:49

can so easily jump from one

7:51

narrative to another or one story

7:53

to another and so seamlessly do

7:55

it? without really expecting

7:57

anyone to ask any questions. And

7:59

when they do, how do they

8:01

react? Yeah,

8:03

it feels like there's

8:05

this distorted perception of themselves

8:08

and the scene and

8:10

other people and what happened.

8:12

And that can fluctuate over

8:15

time as they craft the

8:17

story better. And we

8:19

can wonder, are they even consciously aware

8:21

that this is what they're doing?

8:23

Or it's just kind of an emotionally

8:25

driven, as you say, they want

8:27

to give a good story. And so

8:29

it can just sort of evolve

8:31

and shift and changes depending on the

8:33

mood of the day, right? And

8:35

what's going to sound best. And

8:38

getting other people to go along with it.

8:40

That's the other part. That's where you get

8:42

the flying monkeys. Obviously, you have I

8:45

really didn't think of the attorneys as

8:47

flying monkeys. I don't know

8:49

if they really, they're near that cat

8:51

or they're paid flying monkeys, if you

8:53

will. Yeah, they're paid to fly. They're

8:55

paid to fly. These are the professional

8:57

flying monkeys that are there to run

9:00

her narrative. But then you have just

9:02

people out of their free will, not

9:04

getting paid a dime, just wasting their

9:06

own time or spending their own time,

9:08

however you wanna look at it. Some

9:10

would say wasting, some would say you're

9:12

wasting your life. But they're

9:14

willing to go out there and do

9:16

the bidding for this person. Most

9:18

of them have never met her in

9:20

her life. How does someone like

9:22

this, especially in this sort of

9:25

a case, because sometimes you look at this

9:27

with flying monkeys and it's usually the

9:29

narcissist friends or family that they'll spin the

9:31

tail to and they're already built in.

9:33

They're ready to go. They're ready to run

9:35

with us. In this case, it's

9:38

strangers that have signed on

9:40

to be flying monkeys. How

9:42

do you do that? How do you get

9:44

so many people behind a conflicted story that

9:46

is way out there? Yeah,

9:48

you know, people are drawn to

9:50

conspiracy theories and you see that in

9:52

politics, you see it in so

9:54

many other ways in our society. It

9:57

meets a need for people to,

9:59

you know feel like it's us versus

10:01

them and we're the good guys

10:03

and we're going after the bad guys

10:05

And I think that a lot

10:07

of that, you know we've talked about

10:09

the podcast or Turtle Boy and

10:11

a lot of this has been whipped

10:14

up in the media Yeah, and

10:16

it only takes a few people who

10:18

start the ball rolling and then

10:20

you develop this conspiracy mindset in the

10:22

whole community and I have to

10:24

say it's surprising It's, you

10:26

you know showing up with the

10:28

signs and the, you know the

10:30

intensity that you see people having

10:32

It is like a political rally

10:34

and it's it's bizarre want more

10:37

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