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1:14

Hello everyone and welcome to to

1:16

and Justice. Justice. In today's episode, I'm joined

1:19

by two very special guests. guests. As As

1:21

most of you know, Eric and I

1:23

are currently on the search for our

1:25

next case to be covered in to

1:27

17. season 17. As we wait, as we wait. for

1:29

the Michigan the Michigan Attorney General's

1:31

Conviction Integrity Unit to take action

1:33

on Jody's case? on Jody's case,

1:36

as always, continues. continues. A few

1:38

weeks A few weeks ago, Erica

1:40

selected a case from our website submissions

1:42

us to us to Nicky Jackson.

1:44

Jackson. at the the Purdue University

1:46

Center for Justice

1:48

and Post-exoneration Assistance. Earlier this week, we Earlier

1:50

this week we made the trip to her

1:52

office and spent the day with Dr. Jackson Exonerie

1:54

Tim Donald to discuss the case as well as

1:56

the work that they do at their at their center.

2:00

Once we were done with the case discussion, we

2:02

turned on the recorder for a conversation with

2:04

Dr. Jackson and Tim. with Dr. Here's

2:06

that interview. Tim. Here's that interview. I'm

2:08

Dr. Nikki Jackson. I'm

2:10

a at at Purdue University Northwest.

2:12

I run our justice program, been

2:14

here for 35 years. 35 years.

2:17

About two a half years ago

2:19

I established the Center for Justice

2:21

and and Assistance at

2:23

Purdue University Purdue University and

2:25

I am here today with my

2:27

my manager, manager, Mr. Timmy

2:29

Donald. Hello, thanks thanks for

2:31

having me. My name is is I'm

2:34

on the I'm a designer, really, I'm proud

2:36

to be here today. today. And Timmy

2:38

was a big a big part of how

2:40

your organization came I'm I'm not going to

2:42

try to put the whole. to put the whole

2:44

salad out. But Timmy was part of was part of

2:46

how you guys started this organization,

2:48

right? Can you talk a little bit

2:50

about that? a little bit had read

2:53

a story about read in 2016

2:55

about Timmy in way back. back. In

2:57

In the newspaper that he he had been

2:59

probably convicted did not know him. him,

3:01

and I reached out to his attorney

3:03

and asked if would be willing

3:05

to meet me me. And literally, the

3:07

diner next door. we sat, he

3:09

doors. to meet with me, we to meet with me,

3:11

we sat down and we talked. his And

3:14

to me, his brother -in -law did

3:16

all of the talking. To me, just

3:18

out been out three weeks, out, out. 24

3:20

serving 24 years for crimes, he

3:22

did not commit. been in Timmy's never

3:24

been in trouble with the law. law. So

3:26

anyway, I made a lot of promises to Timmy. to

3:29

Timmy and and including that I would

3:31

be working on getting a compensation bill

3:33

here. bill in Indiana, in

3:35

so he would get he funds

3:37

and other funds would get funds.

3:39

exoneries would really worked with Timmy

3:41

in helping him. and you know,

3:43

just try to re -enter this crazy

3:45

world after 24 years. after I'm

3:48

honored I'm I'm really humbled that he

3:50

trusted me enough to allow me. me

3:52

enough to allow me of that journey. of

3:54

that journey. So... Timmy and I

3:56

were in in People magazine and after

3:59

we were in people. magazine I

4:01

started getting hundreds of letters from inmates

4:03

all over the country asking for help

4:05

and each letter represented an actual person

4:08

and I contacted my friend the owner

4:10

of the Indiana Pacers Steve Simon told

4:12

him about all of these letters and

4:14

he said come to the Pacers office

4:17

meet me and I went and I'd

4:19

never met Steve at that point so

4:21

I went and I showed him all

4:24

of the letters I threw him out

4:26

on the and he said I'll help

4:28

fund you and you can start a

4:31

center to help people like Timmy after

4:33

they get out of prison. So Mr.

4:35

Simon and the university together funded us

4:38

and gave us enough for two years

4:40

and I just hosted a fundraising event

4:42

in September and that's going to last

4:44

us probably another year or two. So

4:47

is all the work you do here

4:49

because we just spent today going over

4:51

a case that we're likely going to

4:54

be taking on for our season 17

4:56

if things work out. and I saw

4:58

your file cabinet over there full of

5:01

cases that you guys are working on.

5:03

So you do work with people helping

5:05

transition after they get out, but that's

5:08

not all you do. No. We have

5:10

four pillars. One is education. We have

5:12

gone to different high schools and talked

5:14

about how to prevent a wrongful arrest

5:17

from occurring, particularly marginalized communities. And we

5:19

have also done community forums, talked to

5:21

the community, brought different exoneries in. In

5:24

fact, when Timmy got released, one of

5:26

the first things we did shortly after

5:28

he got out was I hosted an

5:31

event and we had about, I don't

5:33

know, 150, 200 people in the audience

5:35

and we talked about what happened to

5:38

Timmy and to some other exoneries. At

5:40

the time, I think they were the

5:42

exoneries of, I'm sure you've heard of

5:44

John Burge. So I had a couple

5:47

of those folks at that event. Last

5:49

year, we were very, very fortunate we

5:51

received a grant to do police trainings,

5:54

first in the state of Indiana. Nobody's

5:56

ever done any trainings with police. or

5:58

prosecutors, I applied for a grant. We

6:01

got it and we did trainings at

6:03

six police departments here in Lake County,

6:05

went in and talked to them about

6:08

what a wrongful conviction is, explained that

6:10

our work is really looking at people

6:12

who are factually innocent, not people who

6:14

are wrongly convicted based on a procedural

6:17

error. We are focused solely on people

6:19

like Mr. Donald, who were innocent people.

6:21

and spent years in prison decades for

6:24

crimes that, you know, he didn't commit.

6:26

So we did the police training and

6:28

some of the departments were very resistant,

6:31

nervous because I remember one chief said,

6:33

are you going to come in and

6:35

blame my officers? I'm like, no, I'm

6:38

not coming in to blame anybody. I'm

6:40

here to help educate because I think

6:42

as a law enforcement officer, you don't

6:44

want to arrest the wrong person. So

6:47

we talk about the contributing factors. We

6:49

focus obviously on police work and what

6:51

police can do to try to prevent,

6:54

you know, a wrongful arrest from happening.

6:56

Timmy went with me to five of

6:58

the six. I did not ask him

7:01

to go to the Gary Police Department.

7:03

Their training. I took another exonery. I

7:05

wasn't going to have him after re-victimize

7:08

him, after relive the nightmare. He's already

7:10

got through. Gary was where Tim was.

7:12

wrongfully convicted. Wrongfully arrested. Yes, absolutely. So

7:14

I didn't even actually didn't even ask

7:17

him. That wasn't even in the conversation

7:19

and later he thanked me for not

7:21

making him go and I would never

7:24

make him go and you know that

7:26

kind of trauma to him again. So

7:28

we gave them pretests to see how

7:31

and we actually we interviewed this is

7:33

really what's so cool about our training.

7:35

We had in our program the chief

7:38

all the way down to the patrol

7:40

officers. Some of the departments the chief

7:42

wasn't there, but most of the department's

7:44

chief was there. And I will tell

7:47

you, the one chief who said, are

7:49

you going to blame my officers? you

7:51

going to yell at them? He came

7:54

up to me afterward and said this

7:56

was the best experience he's had for

7:58

his officers and he thanked me for

8:01

being there. And that's what we want,

8:03

right? We want to work with police.

8:05

I don't think police are out there

8:08

trying to wrongly arrest people, right? So

8:10

we want to help them and make

8:12

sure that when they arrest somebody, they're

8:14

arresting the right person, right? So that's

8:17

part of our work is the education

8:19

piece. We work on policy reform. about

8:21

a year and a half ago I

8:24

testified here before the Senate on the

8:26

read technique as I'm sure you're familiar

8:28

with the read technique. So I testified

8:31

that juveniles should not be lied to

8:33

during custodial interrogation so deception should not

8:35

be used and I was told that

8:38

my testimony was pretty convincing and I'm

8:40

proud to say that that bill was

8:42

passed. I would like to see it

8:45

extend to adults with mental... deficiencies, you

8:47

could be 30 years old, but you

8:49

could be functioning at a 12-year-old level.

8:51

Well, this bill would not recognize that

8:54

individual, and it should. Well, still, that

8:56

bill is great. I didn't realize that

8:58

it had happened in Indiana. Yeah, I'm

9:01

so happy. So in Indiana, police cannot,

9:03

you know, with the Supreme Court ruling

9:05

that allows them to lie during interrogation,

9:08

they're not allowed to be deceptive to

9:10

juvenile? Nope. That's amazing. That would save

9:12

so many wrongful convictions. That's right. Just

9:15

ones that have come across my desk.

9:17

Right. And one of the authors of

9:19

the bill, Senator Paul, I'm really proud

9:21

that he worked on this bill. And

9:24

I just happened to talk to him.

9:26

I called him about something and he

9:28

said, do you want to come testify?

9:31

It's tomorrow. So I was literally driving

9:33

to Illinois. I turned around drove to

9:35

Indianapolis. I was going to be there

9:38

to testify because it's something we've been

9:40

talking we've been talking about for a

9:42

long time for a long time. So

9:45

yeah, so yeah, so yeah, an Indiana.

9:47

police officers can no longer use deception

9:49

during juvenile interrogations. That's amazing. It is

9:51

amazing, but I want to extend it.

9:54

I want to extend it. And I'm

9:56

having a little bit of a struggle

9:58

getting folks to understand that. it's important

10:01

that if we believe that minor can't

10:03

make the right decisions and can't think

10:05

the way an adult thinks and process

10:08

things the way an adult does it

10:10

should extend then to adults who are

10:12

functioning. Well the problem even with their

10:15

quote normal adult and their functioning is

10:17

that people don't have an understanding of

10:19

wrongful convict or wrong false confessions and

10:21

how they happen like it shouldn't be

10:24

allowed at all. I believe me I

10:26

pushed for that Timmy and I talked

10:28

about that. Here's what I always say.

10:31

We can't lie to the police. Why

10:33

should they be able to lie to

10:35

us? And nobody should be going to

10:38

prison based on lies. Yeah, right? I

10:40

tell people all the time on our

10:42

podcast. I have the read technique textbook

10:45

in my office. And it's like in

10:47

the first chapter of that, it says

10:49

that the read technique interrogation model is

10:51

psychological warfare. It says that in the

10:54

text, that that's what it. So people

10:56

that don't understand like why would somebody.

10:58

It shouldn't matter if they lie to

11:01

them, because why would somebody confess to

11:03

something they didn't do? And I've worked

11:05

a lot with Jim Train him over

11:08

the years. He was a false confession

11:10

expert and he said, people don't, there

11:12

is some gun that you can hold

11:15

to anyone's head and get them to

11:17

say what you want them to say.

11:19

Everybody, it's a different gun for everybody.

11:21

That's right. And listen, you know, we

11:24

have exoneries that we're friends with who've

11:26

been held in interrogation at 16 years

11:28

of. given, like Jeff Deskevik, he was

11:31

given tons of coffee to drink, you

11:33

know, you know, Jeff, yeah, Jeff was

11:35

16 and wrongly convicted for a rape

11:38

and murder, right, and he didn't commit

11:40

it, and he falsely confessed because, you

11:42

know, at some point, you're going to

11:45

break, right? It is, in fact, if

11:47

you read my book, you'd see we

11:49

talk about the read technique, and I

11:51

actually talk about how many of the

11:54

exoneries experience similar traits as prisoners before.

11:56

And so... Nobody should be able, no

11:58

officer should be able to use deception.

12:01

in my opinion during interrogations, but that's

12:03

just me, you know? And I understand

12:05

the place, you're like, if we can

12:08

get you to confess, and you know,

12:10

you did it, we want to know,

12:12

but there's got to be a better

12:15

method. In fact, I think that the

12:17

gentleman who created the read technique said

12:19

that it's being used not in the

12:21

way that he had wanted it to

12:24

be used. It's an extremely effective tool

12:26

to get someone to confess, but the

12:28

side effect that I think it was

12:31

Dr. The side effect that it wasn't

12:33

expected was that it was so affected

12:35

that it will get people to confess

12:38

to things that they didn't do. Yeah,

12:40

that's... And that's really, really hard for

12:42

people to wrap their brain around. It

12:45

is. And I don't think most people

12:47

understand that people under certain conditions will

12:49

confess to something that they didn't do.

12:51

You know, you and I sitting here

12:54

right now in this environment would say,

12:56

no, I wouldn't confess to it, but

12:58

we're not in the same conditions that

13:01

these folks are thrown in. So anyway,

13:03

yes, we in Indiana have this bill.

13:05

I'd love to see it, as I've

13:08

said, several times, extended, and I'm hoping

13:10

that that's going to, that's going to

13:12

happen. I'm hoping a legislator will hear

13:15

this podcast and say, yeah, that makes

13:17

some sense. Let's do it. The other

13:19

thing we work on here is, as

13:21

you've seen the files, we investigate claims

13:24

of innocence. There's a process cases are

13:26

sent to us by primarily through the

13:28

mail, and then as I've mentioned to

13:31

you before. There's nobody who has a

13:33

better lens for a wrongful conviction than

13:35

somebody who's been wrongly convicted. So every

13:38

time I get a letter, I hand

13:40

it over to Mr. Donald, he reviews

13:42

it, and then we have interns, we

13:45

have students who work on some of

13:47

these cases with us, and they'll review

13:49

it, and they'll come to me and

13:52

say, you know what, I think this

13:54

case merits further review. And if that's

13:56

the case, I just tell Timmy, sent

13:58

an intake form, we created an intake

14:01

form, send it off. and have them

14:03

completed and then get it back to

14:05

us and that's what we do. and

14:08

then Timmy and I will discuss whether

14:10

this case is something we want to

14:12

pursue. The other thing, the fourth thing

14:15

that we do is post-exoneration assistance. We

14:17

help exoneries and their families, which is

14:19

something I don't think anybody else is

14:22

doing. We help them with reunification. I

14:24

don't think a lot of folks understand

14:26

that families are separated. The families are

14:28

suffering. Just like their loved one who's

14:31

incarcerated, they're also like really serving a

14:33

sentence. Timmy lost his father while he

14:35

was incarcerated. His sister, his sisters, his

14:38

mother, they all suffered along with him,

14:40

lost a lot of money. They don't

14:42

sue. They can't recoup the financial losses

14:45

that they've experienced, which I think is

14:47

ridiculous. So we help them and also

14:49

rebuilding relationships. We have... I have some

14:52

clients in other states who their mothers

14:54

and their children have been taught for

14:56

years that their mother killed their father

14:58

or whatnot and we're working on trying

15:01

to reunify those individuals, those families. We

15:03

help with job assistance resumes. We've helped

15:05

several with just crafting resumes. Our students

15:08

do it. I mean, I wish I

15:10

could say I did it, but it

15:12

wasn't me or to me it was

15:15

the students. They're pretty remarkable. We've helped

15:17

with finding them jobs. Dental care has

15:19

been really one of our big things.

15:22

It sounds kind of crazy. It's interesting

15:24

because we talked earlier about at age

15:26

one of the guys that we got

15:28

out from Texas. And that was one

15:31

of the things that we had a

15:33

big struggle with. He had such terrible

15:35

teeth because of the care in prison.

15:38

And so we had to work with

15:40

with Dennis and orthoped, whatever the phrase.

15:42

Or the Donus. Or the Donus surgeons.

15:45

Because he had a ton of work

15:47

that had to be done. Luckily, our

15:49

listeners kind of stepped up and made

15:52

connections and helped donate to get that

15:54

stuff done. But yeah, it was something

15:56

I never thought of, but there's no

15:58

real dental care for them. Timmy actually

16:01

missed the signing. I was at the

16:03

governor's office for the compensation bill and

16:05

I was like, where is he? Why

16:08

is he not here? And I called

16:10

him and he's like, I have a

16:12

toothache. My tooth is hurting really bad.

16:15

Timmy's had a lot of dental issues

16:17

and there's a dentist who has provided

16:19

him tens of thousands of dollars of

16:22

pro bono dental work and he's asked

16:24

not to be identified. I think he

16:26

does this because he says he can

16:28

and he wants to do something, you

16:31

know. and he really likes Timmy. And

16:33

so he's helped Timmy, but we also

16:35

have other clients who've needed dental work,

16:38

one exonery, needed just some cleaning, and

16:40

I think he needed a cavity filled,

16:42

but he was so traumatized, something that

16:45

happened during childhood, that he needed to

16:47

be knocked out. So now I had

16:49

to find some anesthesiologist to come in.

16:52

and knock them out during the cleaning

16:54

and that. So it wasn't just finding

16:56

the dentist. And so I've explained who

16:58

I am. I feel like a salesman

17:01

sometimes, right? Right. Like I have to

17:03

go out and I have to sell

17:05

what we're doing. And I think once

17:08

people understand what we're doing, they understand.

17:10

Because think about this, and I know

17:12

you know this, and I'm sure your

17:15

listeners know this. But there are no

17:17

real reentry assistance efforts. for people who

17:19

are factually innocent. So like Timmy, when

17:22

he got out of prison after 24

17:24

years, there wasn't anything available for him.

17:26

He was not eligible for parole, like

17:28

somebody who actually committed a crime. So

17:31

the irony is, if you commit a

17:33

crime, we have services to help you

17:35

reenter in society, but if you didn't

17:38

commit the crime and we didn't oops

17:40

and locked you up, we got nothing

17:42

for you. That's shameful. There's so many

17:45

barriers there and I'll have to me

17:47

talk about it in a minute but

17:49

when they just losing 20 you think

17:52

about where you know I learned this

17:54

a lot with Ed when he got

17:56

out like what happened with technology over

17:58

those 20 years like how far behind

18:01

not just with the money and not

18:03

just with finding a job and trying

18:05

to you know restart your life but

18:08

it's a completely different work when you

18:10

come out. For you how long have

18:12

you been up to me? Eight years

18:15

it's coming up in January. Nine. Nine

18:17

years of January. Nine years of January.

18:19

Is it nine years of January? Is

18:22

it nine years coming up in January?

18:24

Is it nine years coming up to

18:26

January? Is it nine years coming up?

18:29

Yeah, there was no internet, there was

18:31

no cell phones, there was none of

18:33

that. And so you got to come,

18:35

but yeah, there's, you know, we were

18:38

lucky enough with Ed and Timmy having

18:40

you and what is now your organization

18:42

had people that were there to help

18:45

make that transition, but so many people

18:47

come out and they don't have that.

18:49

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-M 1 ST-H-O-R-M.com-slash-truth. Will

20:46

Trent Special Agent for agent

20:48

for the Georgia Bureau of

20:50

Investigation is back for a whole

20:52

new season of mystery and intrigue.

20:54

Follow Will his unique unique point of

20:56

view as he cracks open some

20:58

of the as he most shocking cases. of the

21:00

GBI's joins the crew Gina

21:02

Sanchez, a prosecuting attorney with

21:04

her own take on justice

21:06

and life. with her

21:08

Will Trent on justice and

21:11

begins Tuesday, two-part season ABC

21:13

and Tuesday, Hulu. on

21:15

ABC and Stream on Hulu. Well,

21:24

it's interesting you say that you say that asked

21:26

me earlier, you know, you did we

21:28

get this, right? get this, right? tell

21:30

you tell quickly how this

21:32

happened how this to me called me one

21:34

day and he said, day and You know, he

21:37

was grateful to have me. And he

21:39

calls me me and he calls me Dr. Jackson,

21:41

never calls me Professor Jackson, never calls me

21:43

Nikki. It's always Mrs. Jackson. Don't know

21:45

why, but he, know why, but he, he's, else

21:47

does else does, but he said to

21:49

me one day not Not everybody

21:51

has a Mrs. Jackson. And I will

21:53

never forget that. that. And I remember

21:56

crying my eyes out. out and and

21:58

thinking about it. And I thought, okay, I... I'm

22:00

able to help one man. This

22:02

is amazing. But he's feeling bad

22:04

for all of the other people

22:06

who've been wrongly convicted and exonerated

22:08

who don't have that support. Right.

22:10

And so I said to him,

22:12

well, let's change that. And here

22:14

we are. That's amazing. It's really

22:17

how it all began. Everything, all

22:19

the four pillars of everything you

22:21

guys are doing. I want to

22:23

real quick touch on because I

22:25

don't think, unless I missed it,

22:27

you didn't touch it on it

22:29

during the interview here. the legislation

22:31

that you worked on, I think

22:33

you just brushed on it about

22:36

the compensation plan. Where is that

22:38

and what are you working on?

22:40

Oh, it was passed in, I

22:42

think, 2019. It was passed and

22:44

basically in Indiana, if you've been,

22:46

if you're factually innocent and you've

22:48

been wrongly convicted, you can apply

22:50

for compensation. It's not an automatic.

22:52

So the premise is great, but

22:55

there's still... some issues with it.

22:57

I think the author of the

22:59

bill was incredible and a very

23:01

compassionate man and he knew that

23:03

he had to like have certain

23:05

language in this in this bill.

23:07

But at the end of the

23:09

day if you've been in prison

23:11

and you were wrongly convicted you

23:14

can actually innocent you can apply

23:16

and it's $50,000 per year. The

23:18

first go around they wanted $25,000

23:20

a year. I got a call

23:22

and said you should look, we've

23:24

got a bill up and then

23:26

when I heard it was $25,000

23:28

and it would not grandfather in

23:30

people like Timmy, I said no

23:33

I'm not testifying before any committee,

23:35

I'm not going to bring him,

23:37

this is not fair. So a

23:39

year later I actually took the

23:41

prosecutor in Lake County, Bernie Carter,

23:43

he went with me and he

23:45

said he supported and I know

23:47

he does support that if you've

23:49

been wrongly convicted, that you should

23:52

be compensated. The issue that I

23:54

have is basically these exonerates are

23:56

going back through a tribe. They

23:58

have to go before a panel

24:00

and prove that they were innocent

24:02

of something. They have to go

24:04

back and... and talk before. Even

24:06

after they've been exonerated. Yeah, even

24:08

after they've been exonerated. They have

24:11

to go back before this panel

24:13

and they have to, they have

24:15

to, they have to prove their

24:17

innocence. That to me as a

24:19

victimologist is re-victimizing them all over

24:21

again. And quite frankly they don't

24:23

have the resources to go and

24:25

find all of the people, right,

24:27

that they need to find. But

24:30

I do know that some exoneries

24:32

have been given compensation. after what

24:34

almost nine years has not paid

24:36

Timmy a penny. He has not

24:38

received a penny from the state

24:40

of Indiana. Well on that line

24:42

Timmy whatever you're comfortable talking about

24:44

can you share like what your

24:46

case was and how you got

24:49

exonerated? Yes I was at 1992

24:51

I was convicted of murder robbery

24:53

and a robbery and sentence 60

24:55

years of prison. And then how

24:57

how did your conviction eventually get

24:59

overturned? One night, I was having

25:01

sleeping issues while I was in

25:03

prison. One night I couldn't sleep,

25:05

so I was watching this television

25:08

show. It was about a man

25:10

on death row that was only

25:12

convicted and that he wrote an

25:14

innocent project and that eventually helped

25:16

him give release. I just pinned

25:18

down everything that happened in my

25:20

case and I just sent it

25:22

to all the innocent projects in

25:24

the United States. They wrote back

25:26

and told me when my case

25:29

found interesting, but they had the

25:31

resources to reach me. By this

25:33

time, a deal of innocent project

25:35

in Northwestern contacted me and they

25:37

took on my case. So the

25:39

Medell Innocence Project is really what

25:41

saved the day here for Timmy.

25:43

And it was, again, as I

25:45

mentioned to you before, a group

25:48

of... Undergraduate students and then a

25:50

local attorney, Tom Vaines, took on

25:52

his case and he was the

25:54

one to help get him exonerated

25:56

exonerated. Did they? Was a DNA

25:58

exoneration or? I did have DNA

26:00

in my case, but they told

26:02

me that it wasn't a part

26:04

of my case, but I got

26:07

exonerated on a witness. recantation, prosecutor

26:09

misconduct and police misconduct. So basically

26:11

there were Brady violations in his

26:13

case and there was DNA just

26:15

I'm gonna just kind of thing

26:17

that up a little bit but

26:19

there was DNA in the case

26:21

that the man who had been

26:23

killed during the course of one

26:26

of the robberies there was a

26:28

tussle and he was wearing a

26:30

jacket and there was DNA on

26:32

that jacket that did not belong

26:34

to Timmy so we know that

26:36

Timmy wasn't there. But that was

26:38

not what the basis of his

26:40

exoneration was. It was this victim

26:42

recantation. One of the students, I'm

26:45

going to back up a little

26:47

bit, when Timmy's, Timmy got arrested

26:49

because his picture was thrown in

26:51

a photo lineup. That photo was

26:53

there because three years prior to

26:55

these murders, he had been with

26:57

a friend in a car. Police

26:59

pulled him over because it looked

27:01

like they had tampered with the

27:04

lock, which they had. Was it

27:06

a screwdriver that he was using

27:08

to drive? Okay, so there was

27:10

a screwdriver. So the police legitimately

27:12

pulled him over, right? They pulled

27:14

him over, got to the police

27:16

station, they took his mugshot, did

27:18

they take fingerprints also? Yeah, fingerprints

27:20

mugshot of him in his front,

27:23

Timmy asked the attorney, or excuse

27:25

me, Timmy asked the police officer,

27:27

can we call my friend's uncle

27:29

who loaned us the car? They

27:31

said yes, they called, the uncle

27:33

showed up with all the papers,

27:35

right, right? And so they sent

27:37

him on their merry way. Timmy

27:39

thought that was it. We're done,

27:42

right? Just borrowed the car. Well,

27:44

three years later, that picture they

27:46

took of him, that mug shot,

27:48

was thrown into this lineup of

27:50

five robberies and a murder. And

27:52

there were witnesses in these five

27:54

robberies. In fact, one is a

27:56

former Gary police officer who said,

27:58

this is not the guy. This

28:01

isn't him. But there were two.

28:03

witnesses. One was the wife or

28:05

female. say of the man who

28:07

was killed who saw him. They

28:09

had just gotten home from dinner

28:11

somewhere shopping and they had their

28:13

children with them and the assailant

28:15

pulled a gun on Mr. Jimenez

28:17

and Mr. Jimenez through like a

28:20

park bench or something like a

28:22

picnic bench or something at the

28:24

assailant and then they was a

28:26

tussle and she then identified Timmy

28:28

in the photo lineup and we

28:30

were later told that she was

28:32

really kind of prompted to pick

28:34

out the picture and then the

28:36

other victim said she wasn't sure

28:39

but maybe it was him but

28:41

all the other one said no

28:43

it wasn't him a few days

28:45

after the murder and robberies and

28:47

these all happened within what 45

28:49

minutes it was a very quick

28:51

period of time then the one

28:53

woman who identified him called the

28:55

police and said that she sees

28:58

the the actual robber in front

29:00

of her house and the police

29:02

go to Timmy's work his supervisor

29:04

you know says here's this time

29:06

card he was here during the

29:08

time of the phone call from

29:10

that that victim and the police

29:12

never disclosed that. Or did they

29:14

disclose it to the prosecutor? That

29:17

was the first Brady violation. So

29:19

that was the first Brady violation.

29:21

And the students at Medill Innocence

29:23

Project at Northwestern found that note.

29:25

Pretty incredible. They found the woman

29:27

who was now living in Florida.

29:29

They called her and she said,

29:31

I've been waiting for this call

29:33

for over 20 years. They have

29:36

the wrong man and I told

29:38

them that they had the wrong

29:40

man. And she'd been living with

29:42

that. And I don't think a

29:44

lot of people understand. how witnesses

29:46

and victims are also impacted by

29:48

a wrongful conviction, right? She had

29:50

been dealing with this for so

29:52

long because nobody really listened to

29:54

her at the beginning, right? So

29:57

she suffered also. to holds

29:59

no ill will

30:01

toward her. I don't, I mean,

30:03

mean talked talked about it

30:05

held no ill will. He, you know, he said you

30:07

know, he said to me before

30:09

that she's a victim just like

30:11

I was in this nightmare. Pretty

30:13

incredible, pretty incredible. Will

30:23

Trent, the special agent for the Georgia

30:25

Bureau of Investigation is back for

30:27

a whole new season of mystery and

30:30

and intrigue. Follow his unique his point

30:32

of view as he cracks open some

30:34

of the as he most shocking cases. of the

30:36

GBI's most joins the crew as

30:38

Marion Sanchez, a prosecuting attorney

30:40

with her own take on justice

30:43

attorney life. own take on Will

30:45

Trent, life. Will Trent, the begins

30:47

Tuesday, premiere, begins Tuesday, ABC

30:49

9-8 Central, and Hulu. on Hulu.

30:53

And there's so many of them that

30:55

are just like that too. Yeah, I

30:57

know, right? Well, and we felt like

31:00

the case we just there are so

31:02

many of them that are just like that too.

31:04

Yeah, I know, right? a Well, and we felt like

31:06

the case we just finished up, you know, same thing.

31:08

It was a witness who gave this ridiculous testimony

31:10

a trial. later, was years years later,

31:12

go years later, door knock on our door

31:14

and I asked, All I did was

31:16

say, say, tell me what happened that night. that night.

31:18

she told me the truth about what happened

31:21

that night. what like, well, why did you say

31:23

this? then told me to say that. did you

31:25

say this? The cop what folks

31:27

don't understand that's what folks most police

31:29

Yeah. And think are very very

31:31

good are very, very good, I think I have

31:33

good with police. with I think people think

31:35

I don't like the police. I I do

31:37

like the police. I really do like the

31:39

police. I don't like bad police. I don't

31:41

always tell people, I get the same thing

31:43

and I always tell people. I

31:45

get the same thing. I get cops thing. I

31:47

than good cops. thing. Man, have you

31:49

seen my my PowerPoint? That was on my police training

31:52

training PowerPoint. a, I was in There was a,

31:54

I was in the the office for

31:56

the signing of that juvenile deception

31:58

bill. And there was a a man. sitting and

32:00

I'm talking to him and he's security

32:02

for the governor and he asked who

32:04

I was and I told him you

32:07

know who I was and professor and

32:09

run the center for people who've been

32:11

wrongly convicted and he said there's nobody

32:13

who hates a bad cup more than

32:15

me you know a good cop and

32:17

so I love that so I say

32:19

can I use that can I quote

32:21

you and he gave me his name

32:23

and info and I have it on

32:25

my PowerPoint slide. I always been my

32:27

experience but I love the idea too

32:30

that you guys do this education for

32:32

police. I just had a conversation with

32:34

a police officer that I know we're

32:36

actually we're presenting to a group separately

32:38

and I was and I was talking

32:40

about how don't talk to telling people,

32:42

it was young people, do not talk

32:44

to the police without an attorney presence.

32:46

It is your constitutional right? You do

32:48

not? And then she gets up afterwards.

32:51

She's like, listen, it's fine. We're just

32:53

here to help and you should talk.

32:55

And you should talk. And you should

32:57

talk. She's doing what she thinks is

32:59

right. Right. You just told those kids

33:01

that they look guilty if they exercise

33:03

their constitutional rights, that that makes that,

33:05

like, that's not okay to do, that's

33:07

how this shit happens. Well, I think

33:09

what the reality is also that people

33:12

like, you know, Timmy, who are innocent,

33:14

even though he was not a false

33:16

confession, he always maintained his innocence, but

33:18

for others who falsely confessed, they talk

33:20

to police, everybody talks to police if

33:22

you're innocent, you're like, I have nothing

33:24

to hide. Right. I have nothing to

33:26

hide so sure. If you ask me

33:28

a few questions, of course I'm going

33:30

to answer because I didn't do anything

33:33

wrong. And then you get tripped up

33:35

during the interrogation and I don't think

33:37

people understand. In fact, I always tell

33:39

students and I tell people when I

33:41

speak, even lawyers who've been arrested have

33:43

a lawyer sitting there with them. It's

33:45

important. Well, and the general public doesn't

33:47

understand how the reed technique works. So

33:49

there's so many innocent people sitting in

33:51

prison right now because they just wanted

33:54

to help. But that's like part of

33:56

the process like they're like I'm going

33:58

to get you to put something on

34:00

the record. I'm going to get you

34:02

to say something, I'm going to find

34:04

an accuracy, I'm going to lean on

34:06

it, now I'm going to get you

34:08

flustered, and I'm going to get you

34:10

uncomfortable, because now you've just lied to

34:12

the police, even though it wasn't really

34:15

an intentional lie, and then they just,

34:17

it's just this snowball effect, don't do

34:19

it, it's just this snowball effect, don't

34:21

do it, it's just this snowball effect,

34:23

don't do it, don't, it, it's just,

34:25

this snowball, this snowball effect, this snowball

34:27

effect, this snowball effect, you know, Mirandizing

34:29

people, I hate whenever we get, it's

34:31

always a wrongful conviction, listening to like

34:33

an interrogation tape and you hear the

34:36

Miranda warning. It's like, all right, we

34:38

got to read you this, before we

34:40

talk to you, you know, the rights

34:42

attorney, I mean, you're, you have to

34:44

waive these, you, if you want to

34:46

help us, you just waive these, if

34:48

you want to help us, you just

34:50

need to waive these, if you want

34:52

to help us, you know, you do

34:54

not need to talk to talk to

34:56

talk to me, you. You know, you

34:59

know, you, you know, you know, you

35:01

know, you know, you know, you know,

35:03

you know, you know, And we've all

35:05

heard the Miranda warnings on TV, right?

35:07

My students can recite it from watching.

35:09

I can do it from watching TV,

35:11

right? So we all know what our

35:13

Miranda warnings are, but do we really

35:15

understand them? And I think that's what's

35:17

so important. And I share with my

35:20

students, you really have to understand what

35:22

your constitutional rights are. They're there for

35:24

a reason and use them. Use them.

35:26

It doesn't mean you're guilty. Just because

35:28

you ask for a lawyer does not

35:30

mean you're guilty. But we have to

35:32

get past that, because I think a

35:34

lot of people think, well, why did

35:36

they ask for a lawyer? Why did

35:38

they ask for a lawyer if they

35:41

didn't do anything? Smart. I would say

35:43

the best evidence that people don't understand

35:45

Miranda's, I get these calls all for

35:47

people I know. Like somebody might get,

35:49

I do something that got picked up

35:51

for a DUI. He's like, they arrest

35:53

me, but they never read me in

35:55

my, my, my, Miranda rights. So it's,

35:57

the arrest isn't valid, right? I'm like,

35:59

no, that's TV. They did not need

36:02

to Mirandize you to throw your ass

36:04

in the back of the squad. That's

36:06

like, that's not what that's for. You

36:08

have to understand that it true, you

36:10

know, the Miranda warnings are all about

36:12

custodial interrogation, right? Right. And so people

36:14

don't even understand what that means. In

36:16

fact, I don't even know if everybody

36:18

understands. I don't know if I really

36:20

understand what does custodial interrogation mean. I

36:23

mean, that's part of, in one of

36:25

my classes, we break it down. What

36:27

does custody mean? Is custody mean you're

36:29

deprived your freedom, which to me, that's

36:31

what custody meets. Right. That does that

36:33

mean I have to be sitting in

36:35

a police station. What if it's sitting

36:37

here in my office and the police

36:39

come in? You know, and is that?

36:41

Am I now in custody when they

36:44

start asking me questions? So you have

36:46

to understand what does custody? So you

36:48

have to understand what does custody mean?

36:50

And what does custody mean? And what

36:52

does interrogation? So you have to understand

36:54

what does custody mean? And what does

36:56

custody mean? you have to be blunt

36:58

because they'll claim we had a we

37:00

had a case of a 15 year

37:02

old girl who was interrogated for six

37:05

hours and the cops typed up a

37:07

confession for her and had her sign

37:09

it and it's just innocent still in

37:11

prison to this day no parents no

37:13

her mom was calling the whole time

37:15

and they just told her we're going

37:17

to bring her home this this whole

37:19

time and then the police they never

37:21

were and eyes her either never gave

37:23

her that told her she got a

37:25

lawyer never let her mom know she

37:28

was where she was that and they

37:30

claimed and this is what they'll do

37:32

is, well, she wasn't a suspect and

37:34

she wasn't in custody. She could have

37:36

left at any time, but you never

37:38

told her that. So I always tell

37:40

people, like, if the police ever want

37:42

to talk to you, your first question

37:44

out of your mouth needs to be,

37:46

am I free to go? And make

37:49

them answer it. Am I free to

37:51

go? And if you are, then get

37:53

up and leave. If they say no,

37:55

then say, then I want a lawyer.

37:57

Period. Those are the only things you

37:59

should know. Great advice. I'm going to

38:01

start using that. Yeah, that's a, that's

38:03

great. What's interesting is, am I free

38:05

to go? I've never thought about that.

38:07

Well, I've heard interrogation tapes where people

38:10

have done that and it's amazing. how

38:12

the police because I mean and I

38:14

get it they're trying to get you

38:16

to talk they don't want you to

38:18

ask the lawyer they don't want you

38:20

to get up but how they will

38:22

try to avoid that am I free

38:24

to go what do you mean what

38:26

you want to you want to leave

38:28

answer the question am I free to

38:31

go why do you want to leave

38:33

answer the question am I free to

38:35

go because as you know if they

38:37

say yes then it is now a

38:39

custodial interview and you have and you

38:41

have the right to remain silent I

38:43

love that. I'm going to start using

38:45

that. I mean, I really had never

38:47

even thought about, am I free to

38:49

go? I've been teaching for 35 years

38:52

at this university, and before I met

38:54

Timmy, I thought I had really taught

38:56

my students well. And now I understand

38:58

that I've really taught them about how

39:00

the system is supposed to work. And

39:02

now I teach very differently, right? You

39:04

see how it actually does work? Yeah,

39:06

and I've sat on two prison boards

39:08

for, gosh, almost 17 years. And I

39:10

think now, you know, my seat at

39:13

the table is very different. So when

39:15

I hear somebody say, you know, they

39:17

use the term offender, you know, often,

39:19

even though I think they, they, they,

39:21

that's kind of a taboo word now.

39:23

But I heard somebody say it the

39:25

other day at an event, a correctional

39:27

officer said, you know, the offenders. And

39:29

I raised my hand and I say,

39:31

they're not all offenders. You have people

39:34

who are sitting here who are innocent

39:36

and they are victims. They're all prisoners.

39:38

They're all inmates, but they're not all

39:40

offenders. So I sit on these boards

39:42

very differently today than I did prior

39:44

to meeting Timmy. So, you know, people

39:46

always say, wow, you've done so much

39:48

for Timmy and you've done all this

39:50

great work. I hear this from a

39:52

lot of people. I'm very blessed. I've

39:54

been, you know, given a lot of

39:57

accolades for the work I've done in

39:59

the space, but I will tell you.

40:01

The reality is, I've learned a lot

40:03

from him. You know, there's nothing in

40:05

my undergrad teaching, my master's, my doctoral

40:07

program that really prepared me, I think,

40:09

for dealing with a wrongful conviction. That's

40:11

why I created this course wrongful conviction

40:13

we never had it before right and

40:15

it is a very popular course as

40:18

you can imagine and Timmy loves that

40:20

class he comes in and the students

40:22

all know Timmy but the Jackson students

40:24

love the class yeah they do love

40:26

the class and I think it really

40:28

changes their mindset about what they hear

40:30

on the news what they see every

40:32

time you see somebody arrested that doesn't

40:34

mean somebody is guilty Right. Let's remember

40:36

there is always this presumption of innocence,

40:39

but sadly the media gives us a

40:41

very different image. So I think, you

40:43

know, we're doing some good things here.

40:45

I think we've, I know we're doing

40:47

some good things here. And it's not

40:49

just helping exoneries, but it's really, I

40:51

hope, helping prevent a wrongful conviction. That's

40:53

really my goal is to prevent this

40:55

from happening. We give a pretest at

40:57

our police trainings and... Man, you know

41:00

offense to the police, but it just

41:02

shows that they don't even understand wrongful

41:04

convictions. They fail. Every department, they pretty

41:06

much fail these tests. And then we

41:08

give them a post test to see

41:10

how they did after the training, and

41:12

they improve for sure, but still not

41:14

where we want them to be. So

41:16

it just shows that we've got to

41:18

continue to do these trainings, and I'd

41:21

love to do them with the prosecutor's

41:23

office. Right. We have a company right

41:25

now who's very interested in us doing

41:27

this police training throughout the state of

41:29

Indiana. We're going to be having more

41:31

conversations because we need money to do

41:33

that. Timmy and I work. We are

41:35

a skeleton crew as you can see.

41:37

It's me and it's Timmy and students,

41:39

but we are very blessed that we

41:42

have a lot of people who volunteer.

41:44

If any of your folks are, you

41:46

know, experts in anything or just curious

41:48

about anything. In this space, you know,

41:50

we're always here to listen and hopefully

41:52

get some, you know, some support from

41:54

anybody. Right now we have law firms

41:56

who are very good. us and

41:58

work with us

42:00

pro bono. bono. have

42:02

agencies who work with us.

42:04

us. We have a pastor, Pastor Pastor

42:07

Michael Pirtle, who is a rock

42:09

star. He just He just received

42:11

an award from us. us. Pastor Purdle

42:14

with the with the piece. He

42:16

helps. He helps us help

42:19

you know, find jobs jobs

42:22

and other and even like housing. things

42:24

like that. that. was just

42:26

amazing. is use all of our

42:28

networks that we can. networks

42:30

this is not just him and I,

42:32

it's a try. just him and I. does take

42:34

a... I mean, it really does village. a... I

42:37

It truly does take a village. here,

42:39

it And it's people who truly care. And

42:41

I always get asked, a can I do to

42:43

help? truly can we do? a village. And

42:45

it's will who truly care. to anybody

42:47

who's get our work and try to

42:49

figure out to help? that we can

42:51

do before. winter break, we

42:53

we got a box in the mail, Timmy

42:56

and I just just at a

42:58

at a foundation luncheon. They were They

43:00

were bringing chairs at a at a

43:02

luncheon. It was so in in

43:04

there because people wanted to understand

43:06

more about wrongful convictions. Some lady

43:08

sent me a box and said, a

43:11

box and your presentation. And

43:13

these are some clothes from

43:15

my husband. I mean, was really

43:17

thoughtful, you know? you Really thoughtful.

43:19

The The problem what people don't understand is,

43:21

as you can see, is, as you space. have

43:24

limited one box is great,

43:26

but when but say, well, I

43:28

say, to I want to clothing. all this

43:30

Timmy and I? Timmy and all

43:32

this all this clothes? Hey. was on

43:34

this shelter for shelter for two shelters

43:36

of domestic domestic violence shelters.

43:39

their boards for years. And people people

43:41

always would say, to donate all my clothes.

43:43

I'd be like. like. How much much

43:46

closet space do you have in your house? in

43:48

your It's the same kind of logic. of logic.

43:50

we we can, we we always need

43:52

help. for help. Well, for help. I

43:54

want to get, to wrap how I up and

43:56

for my things up. for my listeners, hopefully

43:58

if things go well us. case we've been

44:00

discussing all day to day, you'll be

44:02

hearing more from Dr. Jackson and Timmy

44:04

as we move along over these next

44:07

few months. But for now I want

44:09

to leave with a thing you guys

44:11

doing amazing work if you really enjoyed.

44:13

Eric and I both here spending here

44:15

with you guys today seeing the work

44:17

that you're doing, is there a place

44:19

for, I have listeners all over the

44:21

world, and I'm sure I have people

44:23

here in Northless Indiana that maybe want

44:25

to volunteer and help, but for anybody

44:27

that wants to, I know you guys

44:29

need funding, I know you guys need

44:31

funding, like any other. Is there a

44:34

place or a way where people could

44:36

donate if they want to be able

44:38

to help out your organization? There is.

44:40

So the easiest thing, and this is

44:42

what I tell all my friends, is

44:44

Google, CJPA, P&W, and it will pop

44:46

up our site. And at the bottom,

44:48

there's a donate link. So it's, you

44:50

know, our website is, it's so long,

44:52

because our title is so long. Yeah.

44:54

So I just tell people Google, Google,

44:56

CJPA, P&W, it pops up and there's

44:58

a donate. link at the bottom. We'll

45:01

make it easy for him. Erica will

45:03

put a link to that right in

45:05

the description of the episode, too. I

45:07

can scroll down and link to that.

45:09

Thank you so much. And with that,

45:11

thanks for having us, guys. I'm sure

45:13

we'll be in touch. We're going to

45:15

go and wrap things up here. We're

45:17

so excited that you're here. I've heard

45:19

so much about you. We're so excited

45:21

that you're here. I mean, I've heard

45:23

things. We're doing the work you're doing

45:25

the work you're doing. Zach is going

45:28

to love you. Michaelo is, he's a

45:30

crier. I want to personally, I really

45:32

thank you all. I appreciate the work

45:34

he do. That's my pleasure. Thanks. That's

45:36

so sweet. I mean, and what was

45:38

so neat in the police trainings was

45:40

watching the police officers come up to

45:42

Timmy, shake his hand and apologize to

45:44

him. I will tell you, that was

45:46

really moving for me. to see that

45:48

happen because how do you give back

45:50

a man 24 years of his life?

45:52

You can't. Truth

46:00

In Justice is an FBI studio's production,

46:02

co-written and produced by Erica Bergenham. Music

46:04

for season 15 is created and composed

46:07

by Caden Ladislaw. Follow-up episodes are co-hosted

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by Janet Barney and Zach Weber. Our

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logo font was created by Tate Krupa

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47:54

But as for now we're signing off.

47:56

I'm Bob Ruff. I'm

47:59

Zach Weaver. And I'm

48:01

Janet Varney. And

48:03

this has been this has

48:06

Justice. and justice.