0:06

From NBI

0:10

Studios, this

0:13

is Truth

0:16

and Justice,

0:20

a crowd-sourced

0:23

investigation in

0:27

real time.

0:31

I'm Bob

0:35

Roth. Thank

0:37

you for tuning into Truth and

0:39

Justice. You are listening to the

0:41

Friday follow-up for season 16, episode

0:43

13. This week we got a quick update

0:45

on the DNA testing in the West Memphis

0:48

3 case. We also went back and

0:50

listened to the full breakdown of Jesse

0:52

Ms. Kelly's false confession. We have

0:54

a lot of listener questions and

0:56

we are joined with Janet today. Bob Janet

0:58

and I are here to talk about your

1:00

listener questions and theories. Before

1:03

we get into that, housekeeping. Big

1:05

news. So for those of you that are watching

1:07

live, all of you that are in the live

1:09

chat right now, on Tuesday night, tomorrow

1:11

morning, Wednesday, the 12th of

1:13

March, my kid's first podcast episode

1:15

is dropping. Episode one of

1:18

the underestimated podcast is dropping.

1:20

It's been, I'm just so

1:22

excited. We actually had, it was

1:24

a crazy couple of days because we

1:26

were, our old friend, Shane Yoder. wrote

1:28

a bunch of like last minute, put together

1:31

a series of scoring tracks for us, for

1:33

us to use, which he did over the

1:35

week, he was working on Sunday, I was

1:37

working with him all weekend, all weekend

1:40

to get the music we needed. So

1:42

then we went into Monday at school and

1:44

we have to, and I have this group

1:46

of students, you know, an hour, 50

1:48

minutes, and we have to, their episode, which

1:50

was done ready for music, but we

1:52

had to do all the music scoring

1:55

on it before, and they've never done

1:57

it. They also had to write their

1:59

ad copy. record the ads. They still had to record

2:01

credits. We still had to like start making the bullet point, the list,

2:03

they needed to make their episode artwork. We had all the, so like,

2:05

all day, I was working on stuff during the day, they come in seventh

2:07

hour, I'm like, okay, everybody, who's doing? You're doing that, you're doing

2:10

that, you're doing that, you're doing that, you're doing that,

2:12

you're with me, let's go, boom, boom, we were like jamming, right up to the

2:14

right up to the bell ring, right up to the bell ring, right up

2:16

to the bell ring, didn't to the bell ring, didn't quite to the bell

2:18

ring, didn't quite get it, didn't quite get it, didn't quite get it done,

2:20

didn't quite get it done. Today, I had some of

2:22

them, like, whenever they could get out of

2:24

another class during the day, they were coming,

2:26

like, my other, my poor other students, they

2:29

came in, they're like, Mr. Ruff, what are

2:31

we doing then? Like, we're finishing your

2:33

project. They're like, I'm done with them

2:35

project. Then what you're doing is being

2:37

quiet and leaving Mr. Ruff alone. Well,

2:40

I'm over here, because, like, everybody, like,

2:42

every hour, there was, you know, Emily

2:44

came in during, during the credits, and

2:46

Ali came in during, Actually, no, their

2:48

class was 7th hour, 6th hour, we finished everything all up. So

2:51

the 7th hour they came in and we hooked the speaker up,

2:53

turned the lights off in the whole class, which there's

2:55

three groups in that class, but the one group's in

2:57

that class, but the one group had there's ready,

2:59

and we played it fully, finished with all the

3:01

music. It was just such a cool, like everybody

3:03

just sitting there all excited, and we got over,

3:05

everybody was clapping and cheering, that we got our

3:07

first episode done, really, really, really, really, really, really,

3:09

really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,

3:11

really, really, really, really, really, really, really, The first

3:13

episode, they're a little concerned because it's like 15 minutes long,

3:15

but I was like, it's your first episode, like you told

3:18

the story, you did a great job, it sounds good. It

3:20

doesn't have to be 45 minutes long. There are other ones,

3:22

just so you know, if you listen to this, you know, if you listen

3:24

to this, you're only 15 minutes long. There are other one, and there

3:26

are other, just you know, if you listen to this and you're like, they're

3:28

like, they're podcasting, you're as long as long as long as long as long

3:30

as long as I need to be as long as I need to be

3:32

as long as long as long as I need to be, as long as

3:34

I need to be as long as long as long as I need to

3:36

be, as long as I need to be, as long as long as long as long

3:38

as I need to be, as long as long as long as I need to be, as

3:40

I need to be, as long as long as I need to the music

3:42

chain put together is great like

3:45

I'm just I don't I'm just tell them

3:47

over the moon also that for those

3:49

of you that are patrons and listen

3:51

and listen to the pregame hour what

3:53

you just heard was like was like

3:56

a four days straight of extreme stress

3:58

every minute working to the bone that

4:00

finally ended about two hours before I sat

4:02

down and so just sort of unloaded

4:04

all my goofiness on it. Well I think

4:07

what you've described in many ways

4:09

is like working at an actual

4:11

like radio station or recording studio

4:13

so they're getting even there even

4:15

that experience that they're getting is

4:17

actually pretty close to like that

4:20

last-minute feeling of like getting an issue out

4:22

or getting an episode out that's yeah it's

4:24

great. Yeah, and we talked about that

4:26

today too. I'm like, this is the

4:28

business. Like, it's deadlines and also, like,

4:31

when you think you're done, you're not,

4:33

you know, because I have all the

4:35

research, all the writing, the recording,

4:38

the editing, and they're like, Mr.

4:40

Ruff, we're done. We just need

4:42

music. I'm like, let me show you

4:44

what we just need music looks like

4:46

for the next 48 hours. We get

4:48

the rest of it all done. Well, it's

4:50

really good. But yeah, so make sure

4:53

that you guys check out the underestimated

4:55

podcast tomorrow morning if you're watching live,

4:57

but this is Friday and you're

4:59

listening, going back, you can get

5:01

it on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you

5:03

get your podcast, it's everywhere, super

5:06

exciting. And with that being said, so this

5:08

was, you guys, I talked to you guys about

5:10

what's going on with the with the DNA testing

5:12

already. So you guys were kind of aware of

5:15

all that stuff. How long has it been since

5:17

you guys listened to that you guys

5:19

listened to that interview? I don't think

5:21

I've listened to it since it was

5:23

it was broadcast the first time through.

5:25

So season five, you know, whenever that

5:27

was like seven years ago. Same.

5:29

Definitely cleaner than I remember. There

5:32

was a couple times I actually caught

5:34

things that I didn't catch, even though

5:36

you talked about them in the breakdown.

5:38

Somehow I still missed. Like at some

5:40

point, Jesse says in the very beginning,

5:42

Jesse says that, you know, the kids ran

5:44

to the park. And then... I don't even know

5:47

who's talking if it's a if it's a if

5:49

it's a Mitchell or Ridge at that point but

5:51

says something along lines of like oh when they ran

5:53

to the pipe yeah and Jesse clearly says park

5:55

yeah mhm like like to me this is the

5:57

most the most because a lot of times when

5:59

we have false confessions, you

6:01

know, especially ones that are this

6:04

and this egregious, the cops are

6:06

a little smarter about it. You

6:08

know, where they like turn, you know, think

6:10

Jennifer Jeff Lee, you know, they

6:12

turn the recorder off. You know, you

6:14

don't know what was said. You just

6:16

have, you know, they type something out and

6:19

have them sign it. But this is

6:21

where we got to like hear

6:23

from beginning to end how it

6:25

like progresses. And it's just. It's

6:27

always been sickening to me, but it's been

6:29

a long time since I listened to it

6:31

again too. And I kind of went back

6:33

to it because like I said, this will

6:35

have some relevance in our next

6:37

season. And so I wanted to like, let

6:39

me hear a good example again doing

6:42

a statement analysis and listening

6:44

to how this happens. And it's just

6:46

insane to me how much that whole

6:48

narrative was built by the detectives and

6:50

not by Jesse. How'd you feel going through

6:52

it again Janet? Yeah, well, you and

6:55

I texted about this offline, but

6:57

it prompted me to go back

6:59

and start listening to the entirety

7:01

of season one again. Season five

7:03

again. I mean, season five again.

7:06

I mean, season five again. And yeah,

7:08

it's, I mean, that's, that's what,

7:10

that's what it did. Like, it made me,

7:12

it just made me go, yeah, now I

7:14

want to put all of this back into

7:17

context and like listen to the whole

7:19

thing over again. And of course I

7:21

followed. up on with the oxygen show

7:23

and it doesn't ever get any

7:25

less fascinating and infuriating but it

7:27

had been it had been a while since

7:30

I listened to all the other kind of

7:32

like leads and like just the information that

7:34

was coming through and all the sightings and

7:36

I'm definitely not finished listening through to season

7:38

five but I've listened to I don't know

7:40

20 episodes already I was like on the plane

7:42

listening yeah I was listening to him on

7:44

a faster speed yeah I was listening to him

7:47

on a faster speed yeah I was listening to him

7:49

on a faster speed It was a great

7:51

reminder. I think I'm certainly very very

7:53

intrigued about how it is going to

7:55

play a part in upcoming stuff that

7:57

we're going to be working on and talking

7:59

about. But I don't remember thinking

8:01

this the last time I listened

8:03

to it, which is interesting because

8:06

nothing has changed since it first

8:08

came out. But I think this

8:10

time, maybe because the quality of

8:12

the recording was so good. And

8:15

understand, this is anecdotal. Obviously, I'm

8:17

not a scientist. I'm not saying,

8:19

like, I'm comparing this person to

8:21

someone in my life. Therefore, I'm

8:23

right, and I know what's going

8:25

on. But I have a family

8:28

member who is autistic, who is

8:30

autistic. you know, intellect advanced to

8:32

a certain point and then as,

8:34

you know, medical professionals would

8:36

explain it, like, just sort

8:38

of stopped and, you know,

8:40

he reached a certain level

8:42

of an IQ or whatever,

8:44

and he's one of my favorite

8:46

people in the world and

8:48

is absolutely wonderful, and

8:51

when you ask him a, you know,

8:53

like, between two things, if you say,

8:55

was it this or was it this,

8:57

or if you say, hey, was it this,

8:59

he'll just parrot back what you said

9:01

and it really like hurt my heart

9:04

in a much more profound way

9:06

I think having the better quality

9:08

to really listen to and to take

9:10

that in and to sort of

9:12

feel Jesse's personality better and to

9:15

feel from my perspective has

9:17

victimization differently and more

9:19

intensely it really was even more

9:22

upsetting and more like I was angry

9:24

the last time I listened to it

9:26

and this time I was like upset

9:28

because It was it so so clear

9:30

that he should not be in the

9:32

position that he's been put in

9:34

and there are so many times

9:36

where you're just like what how

9:39

can you think that this is

9:41

coming from anything real I don't

9:43

know I don't know I think that was

9:45

when when I really started studying the

9:47

case what when I when I

9:49

listened to this confession the first

9:51

time was that it really hit

9:54

me how like it made me really

9:56

mad at like the you know, the

9:58

internet people that want to argue. I

10:00

literally was at a place, and I

10:02

still am, at a place where like,

10:04

how can someone genuinely

10:07

listen to that and think, yeah,

10:09

that's legit. That's a real,

10:11

and the way they argue about it,

10:13

and like, if you want to

10:15

think that, you know, whoever's guilty,

10:17

I don't care, but like

10:19

to say because of that

10:21

confession or the, like, and for me,

10:24

I don't have any family

10:26

members that suffer from anything

10:28

like that, but I spent seven

10:30

years working at a school that

10:32

had for emotionally impaired kids and

10:34

there was also an AI division in

10:36

there too so I worked with a lot of

10:39

these kids and what I saw was the idea

10:41

of suggestibility that people want to

10:43

just write off and it's not

10:45

even necessarily if they have you know if

10:48

they are on the spectrum or if they have

10:50

some sort of a deficit a lot of it

10:52

just comes from youth and a lot of

10:54

it just comes from personality but

10:57

I've seen an experience so many

10:59

young kids from high school on

11:01

down that are just so suggestible

11:03

like you were describing Janet where

11:05

all you have to do is just

11:07

give them an indication give

11:10

them a clue about what you want

11:12

them to say and they will say

11:14

it. Like they're not even in

11:16

a situation where they feel like

11:18

they're at risk or anything like

11:20

somebody who's in an

11:22

interrogation room. And it's a learned

11:25

behavior too. You know and it seems

11:27

like like people that have you

11:29

know, in my experience that maybe have

11:31

a lower IQ, they're a little

11:33

less developed, especially like, because I always

11:35

say like there's a superpower within

11:37

a lot of these, you know, different

11:40

types of disabilities, and it's, you know,

11:42

there's always something, there's always a give for

11:44

a take it feels like to me. Yeah.

11:46

And it's like one of the things that

11:49

I was always so impressed with is how

11:51

some of the students that I would

11:53

deal with that had some cognitive impairments,

11:56

but at the same time. had learned how to

11:58

read people like you would never. believe, like

12:00

how they could pick up on subtle

12:02

clues when you were talking to to

12:04

figure out what you want them to

12:06

say so that and they will say it

12:09

so they feel in that case maybe so

12:11

they feel air quotes normal or

12:13

they feel accepted or in

12:15

this case so they're just

12:17

getting approval from whoever they're

12:19

with and so like when I so when

12:22

I listen to Jesse's interview

12:24

It's just like that's all over it

12:26

and of course coming from that background

12:28

working in schools and working with

12:30

kids like that you just want to You

12:33

just want to bust into that room and

12:35

just it just Kick Mitchell and Ridge. I'd

12:37

like what are you do? Like this is

12:39

awful. This is awful like how do you

12:41

possibly not know what you're doing to this

12:44

kid? Yeah, like it's so manipulative.

12:46

It's awful When

12:50

I first started this podcast and started researching all

12:52

these cases, I didn't think it was going

12:54

to affect my sleep. But after years of

12:56

doing this, I realized it was getting difficult

12:58

to turn my brain off at night and

13:00

get the rest that I really need. So

13:03

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13:05

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beam today. Yeah, I

14:32

mean, I was trying, I

14:34

kind of did a thing,

14:36

I think I was, to

14:38

be quite honest, I was

14:40

trying to listen as if

14:43

I, I thought, well, I'm

14:45

going to try to listen

14:47

to this as if I've come

14:50

into this whole thing

14:52

thinking, assuming he's

14:54

guilty. Like what if I just

14:56

tried to listen to it and with

14:59

the assumption like okay? Well, he I'm

15:01

sure he did this So let me

15:03

listen to it from that perspective

15:05

and let me See if I can

15:07

be convinced that You know he is being

15:09

led along and so I was trying

15:12

to find moments where like someone would

15:14

say oh, well, he didn't he was

15:16

like okay. Well, he didn't there were

15:18

some things that when they asked him

15:20

well Jesse did X YZ happen Jesse

15:23

would stay say no he wouldn't say

15:25

yes it did happen yeah so maybe people

15:27

do like do people point to that do they

15:29

say like well there was two times out of

15:31

20 that they said hey did did they do

15:33

this to each other or whatever and and Jesse's

15:36

like no no they didn't do that and

15:38

they're like are you sure and he's like

15:40

no they didn't do that I mean is

15:42

that what people point to are they like

15:44

well he would do it every single time

15:46

if he was do you know what I mean

15:48

yeah I usually what I always here is

15:51

here is They try to pile on

15:53

to the number of confessions. You know,

15:55

so as soon as you start, as

15:57

soon as you start picking apart

15:59

this one. And it's like, well, he

16:01

confessed seven times. He confessed to a

16:03

Bible. He confessed to his own attorney

16:05

over and over again. And that like

16:07

any fault, so like in the docu

16:09

series, I had Jim Tran and one

16:11

of the world's leading experts in false

16:13

confessions. We've also talked to Laura Nywriter

16:16

about it. You know, like, it's such a

16:18

bullshit argument to say, well, I confess so

16:20

many times, because the way Tranan

16:22

put it was, he didn't confess

16:24

seven times. get the first confession

16:26

right seven like he's repeating the

16:28

same it's still one confession he's

16:30

just trying to repeat it and

16:33

revise it as he's learning more information

16:35

is trying to make something that makes

16:37

more sense and again they like I

16:39

think people want to just write off that

16:41

thing that we were just talking about

16:44

like why would he then confess to

16:46

the the police car and then confess

16:48

to his attorney it's like you

16:50

don't understand how someone who people

16:52

can be in a mental state where they

16:54

just want the approval of the person in

16:56

front of them. And they will, and they're

16:58

just trying to say the thing that's going

17:01

to get their approval. Like the

17:03

processing abilities that are in your

17:05

brain that are like, but if I say

17:07

this, it's going to cause X, Y, Z

17:09

consequence, doesn't play into it. It's not a

17:11

factor. It's literally about what's happening right here

17:14

and now. The other thing that I see

17:16

in this in this particular one is how

17:18

much bad information is out there and bad

17:20

evidence is out there on this case. So

17:22

Jesse is giving quote unquote guilty knowledge about

17:25

facts of this right of the murder saying

17:27

they were raped and there's so many people

17:29

out there that believe these boys are raped.

17:31

Right. Regardless of what the evidence actually says.

17:33

Well they have to because he said it.

17:36

So that's the thing is there's all these

17:38

little things that people got guilty knowledge. He's

17:40

saying this and then people believe it.

17:42

Even though we know based on the evidence

17:44

that that's it's not guilty knowledge He's literally

17:46

making stuff up or he's being you know

17:48

fed or put wherever he wants to be

17:50

put Yeah, but there's so many of those

17:53

little nuances where it's like they say the boys

17:55

were sexually assaulted Who's they? Where's

17:57

this coming from besides Jesse? Well, and

17:59

that's The thing is, if you break

18:01

all the emotions out of it and

18:04

you just look and do what we

18:06

normally do, I've talked about this so

18:08

many times, right, is when you can

18:10

source a lie, when you can source

18:13

misinformation, then that can tell you like

18:15

how these things happen. In this case,

18:17

what you have is when they were

18:19

interviewing Jesse, who thought that they had

18:22

like... cut him with the knife and

18:24

did in and you know all the

18:26

things the mutilation all the stuff they

18:28

did. The cops that were interrogating thought

18:31

those things and then that information ends

18:33

up in the confession and then when

18:35

it's analyzed later by professionals and experts

18:37

find out none of that's true so

18:40

now not only does that help show

18:42

you that it was a false confession

18:44

but also shows you where the narrative

18:46

came from even though in this case

18:49

it's not hard to figure out. If

18:51

you take a transcript of just what

18:53

Jesse said, like, like, I don't remember

18:55

the number of times, but it's insane.

18:58

Like, what Jesse said, if you play

19:00

just his transcript, his transcript is, yeah,

19:02

yep, uh-huh, yes, yeah, yep, yep, yep,

19:04

yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, he

19:07

never says anything. Like they are telling

19:09

him stuff, and then he's just agreeing

19:11

to, literally... Everything that they're telling him

19:13

or he'll just he'll agree, but he'll

19:16

just agree and repeat word for word

19:18

Like yeah, whatever the last four words

19:20

were that that that they said to

19:22

him like was it this? Yes, it

19:25

was this But it's shocking it's actually

19:27

shocking like how little of that there

19:29

actually even is one of these that

19:31

you know, that's what I should I

19:34

should do that sometime when I have

19:36

all the free time that I have

19:38

go through and edit it and just

19:40

edit it out everybody except Jesse Jesse

19:42

and just play that That would be

19:45

an interesting thing. Yeah, that would be

19:47

interesting. I did it reading it one

19:49

time. Like, like, like, through the transcript,

19:51

like, I broke it down, it was,

19:54

like, county, how many times he owned

19:56

it? I can't write it. It's popping

19:58

in my head, it was like 90

20:00

sometimes, I don't remember off the, you

20:03

know, I'll have to look at it.

20:05

But I think it would be really

20:07

interesting to hear, here's your narrative from

20:09

your confession, and hear what Jesse actually

20:12

said. Yeah. It would be really interesting

20:14

to hear. Maybe that's what I'll give

20:16

Erica to do. I mean, we can't

20:18

really do that with Jay, because Jay,

20:21

yeah, and Jay is a different story.

20:23

Because Jay was, I think, on the

20:25

other hand, was highly intelligent. Yeah, incredibly

20:27

intelligent. So it was able to like

20:30

take the material and like braid it

20:32

together as best as one can. But

20:34

that's another situation where in multiple interviews,

20:36

the information that the police think they're

20:39

working off of changes. So he has

20:41

to change in accordance with what they

20:43

want to hear. Right. Same thing. Right.

20:45

He gets the cell towers wrong. And

20:48

we find out, well, why? Because the

20:50

police thought that's where they were. But

20:52

in Jay's case, it's harder to pick

20:54

up on. You have to like really

20:57

kind of do the math on it

20:59

and really listen for those. Because one,

21:01

because of his intelligence, you can be

21:03

far more subtle about it. You can

21:06

use physical cues instead of verbal cues

21:08

to get him to say what you

21:10

want. And also Jay knew the game

21:12

going in, intending to tell a lie

21:15

in order to get himself out of

21:17

trouble. as opposed to Jesse who was

21:19

just going along, he didn't know what

21:21

he was in there for, he was

21:24

going to say whatever they wanted him

21:26

to say. Well, in Jesse's case, and

21:28

it reminds me more of like Brendan

21:30

Dessie, where he goes in to try

21:33

to tell the police what they want

21:35

and ends up implicating himself on an

21:37

accident, they both do. Right. Which wasn't

21:39

their intent, but they both end up

21:42

implating themselves in this crime. Because they

21:44

won't, because the police won't accept anything

21:46

less than. what they've determined they want,

21:48

which is full, you have to be

21:51

fully involved. We need you fully involved,

21:53

you know. I mean, yeah, anybody who's,

21:55

anybody who says after they confess, like

21:57

Brenadasi, who's like, hey, I got to

21:59

go back to school or can I

22:02

still be able to take my test

22:04

tomorrow? You just, how do you reconcile

22:06

that? It reminds me of Damien

22:08

telling me, I don't remember if

22:10

you ever said this publicly, but

22:12

I remember just in conversations

22:14

I've had with him that when

22:17

he was on death row that he

22:19

was talking about that they were executing

22:21

people that were so challenged mentally,

22:23

that one of them, they gave him

22:26

his final meal and he had like

22:28

apple pie was part of it. And he

22:30

didn't finish it, and he said, save it for

22:32

me so I can have it after I'm done.

22:34

Oh my God. I don't know if he's, I think

22:36

it's in one of his books. I think I've

22:38

read that one of his books. Oh, that

22:40

just broke my heart. I just remember sitting

22:42

on his couch in his living room

22:45

and telling me this story. He's like,

22:47

you don't understand, like, they don't

22:49

care. Like, how do you execute somebody

22:51

that is that far removed from

22:53

what reality is that literally thought he

22:55

would eat the rest of his pie

22:58

after they executed him? It's, I mean,

23:00

it's just, it's horrible. Yeah, that's all.

23:02

That's so upsetting. Okay, I

23:04

think we, we should probably get

23:06

into these questions, because I know

23:09

there's some stuff about Adnon, too, and

23:11

I don't know. Oh, I know what's

23:13

in there, because I sent it to

23:15

you. Also, I didn't organize it. Sorry,

23:17

I was in a hurry, too. I

23:19

was doing that in the middle of

23:21

this. did feel like this was just

23:24

kind of dropped into their world and

23:26

they weren't as familiar with that season

23:28

or they hadn't heard it at all. You

23:30

do mention Tim Clemente in the context

23:32

of at this point we would already

23:34

know who Tim Clemente is. So do

23:36

you want to just give a very

23:38

quick overview for anybody who was brand

23:40

new to this particular episode? Tim

23:42

Clemente is Jim Clemente's brother

23:44

and Tim has also worked for a

23:47

multitude of three-letter agencies and we had

23:49

him come in and do... a statement

23:51

analysis and a lot of what he said was

23:53

it's it's it's basically it's hard to know

23:55

because we didn't we don't know what was said

23:57

in the pre-interview like we don't know what

24:00

said to him before he got in

24:02

there, but we'd had at some point

24:04

the episodes there too were Tim evaluated

24:06

the interview as well. Okay, yeah, and

24:08

so not unlike Jim Tranem who you

24:10

also just mentioned as well. I'm so

24:12

glad that those people exist when they

24:14

are paid attention to. Yeah. Kathy just

24:16

kind of commenting on that as well.

24:18

How can those two get your own

24:20

ridge sleep at night? I just can't

24:22

understand a detective. That's okay with questioning

24:24

a person with the mental capacity of

24:26

a seven-year-old without an advocate. Then using

24:28

that confession to sentence someone to death,

24:30

how could anyone listening to that think?

24:32

It's a legitimate confession. Yeah, Kathy, you

24:34

are not alone. I think about it

24:36

a lot and I just, it's awful.

24:38

There's a lot of cases we cover

24:41

where there's, you know, you know, there

24:43

are mistakes that are mistakes that are

24:45

mistakes that are mistakes that are made,

24:47

people that are made, people just aren't

24:49

good at their jobs that are made,

24:51

people just aren't good at their jobs

24:53

that are jobs that are jobs, In

24:55

this case, like, I'm sorry, there's no

24:57

other excuse for this. When you really,

24:59

if you go in with an open

25:01

mind and listen to this interview, I

25:03

don't see how anybody could come away

25:05

from that and think, yeah, they legitimately

25:07

thought they were getting a true confession

25:09

from a killer. Like, you hear them

25:11

on the tape intentionally feeding this boy

25:13

this story. And like, that is... Like

25:15

that person has no soul as far

25:17

as I'm concerned, some of that would

25:20

do that. Yeah, I mean, again, I

25:22

was trying to sort of listen to

25:24

it with some devil's advocate kind of

25:26

point of view in an effort to

25:28

kind of be open-minded. And the only

25:30

thing I can think is like if

25:32

you are just, and I'm not saying

25:34

this is right, and I agree with

25:36

you, but if you have just decided

25:38

that this person knows and you've just

25:40

decided it, then you're just not listening.

25:42

That's not an excuse for them because

25:44

that's like the number one thing they

25:46

need to be doing. Yeah. And if

25:48

they're telling themselves like, and I don't

25:50

feel this way about Jesse, I'm saying

25:52

like in their minds, hypothetically, if they're

25:54

like, we know he's involved and he's

25:56

so stupid, he doesn't even remember, like

25:59

he's so stupid, we have to tell

26:01

him what he did. You know what

26:03

I mean? Like that you're just being...

26:05

derisive and you're using his intellect against

26:07

him in so many different ways up

26:09

to and including like I'm having to

26:11

tell him what he did that's how

26:13

dummy is like that you're so twisted

26:15

in your head that you will not

26:17

see past I've I've already made my

26:19

decision and anything that flows from that

26:21

has to be that it's not that

26:23

he didn't do it I have to

26:25

come up with another reason for why

26:27

he's doing what he's doing because I

26:29

already know he did it. Do you

26:31

know what I mean? Yeah, and that's

26:33

what I always wonder is, and neither

26:35

is excusable, but did this happen because

26:38

they were already completely convinced that, because

26:40

the sad part about it was, Jesse

26:42

was never part of the narrative for

26:44

them until this interview. Like they were

26:46

after Damien. They were convinced Damien did

26:48

it. And it wasn't, and they just

26:50

couldn't get Damien because there's no evidence

26:52

against Damien. And so then they were

26:54

like willing to, because Because you want

26:56

to at least, like it's almost the

26:58

lesser of two evils, think it was

27:00

that, right? We're sure these three boys

27:02

did this. So if we got to

27:04

bend the rules and we got to

27:06

help this guy say the story we

27:08

need him to say, it's all for

27:10

the better because we got to get

27:12

these three because we're sure they did

27:14

it. But I don't think you can

27:16

even assume that because, like I said,

27:19

it wasn't, they didn't think it was

27:21

those three boys. They thought it was

27:23

Damien. Jesse was collateral damage. They only

27:25

thought it was demon. So they were

27:27

willing to throw a person that maybe

27:29

they did believe was guilty, but they

27:31

were also willing to throw two other

27:33

people that they had no reason to

27:35

believe were guilty in with them just

27:37

so they could get the guy that

27:39

they were after. Well, and I truly

27:41

believe that even at the point that

27:43

they started this, they didn't think Jesse

27:45

had anything to do with it. No.

27:47

I think they were trying to get

27:49

Jesse to say that Damien did it.

27:51

I agree. Yeah. And then Jesse implicated

27:53

himself. Yep. And then they then they

27:55

had a goldmine because now it's like

27:58

well now you've already said he said

28:00

you're there. You're part of it now.

28:02

You can't you can't back out and

28:04

not testify against Damien because now you're

28:06

because they also I think they thought I

28:08

don't think there's any question about it.

28:10

They thought they could get Jesse to make

28:12

a deal to testify against Damien and make

28:14

that easier for Damien or easier for them

28:17

to convict Damien. But then Jesse you know

28:19

with all his flip-flopping and confessions all the

28:21

things you said he just he never

28:23

would do it. He would never testify

28:25

against them. We found out later through

28:27

the jurors notes that they still that

28:30

information leaked into the jury room anyway

28:32

about the confession. But you got to

28:34

remember, Damien and Jason's trial, this confession

28:36

wasn't part of it because Jesse wouldn't

28:38

testify against him. But again, we found out

28:40

later that they knew about it and it did

28:43

play into the decision. What a mess? I

28:45

feel like I say that every single week.

28:47

But unfortunately we deal with a lot of

28:49

messes. Matt says hypothetically, let's say Terry hops

28:51

for example or someone else are found

28:54

on all the bindings bindingsings. What happens

28:56

next? We already know a hair was

28:58

consistent with his but can be put

29:00

down to secondary transfer. I would also

29:02

love to see those sticks used to force the clothing

29:04

into the water tested. Surely they would

29:06

have DNA embedded. Yeah, and I think it's

29:09

fair to specifically state Terry there because

29:11

he's talking about the fact that like what

29:13

would happen if it was Terry because of the

29:15

fact that there's already a hair that

29:17

was consistent with Harry found in the

29:20

bindings and that didn't result in him

29:22

getting charged with this. We've talked about

29:24

this a little bit before. I think

29:26

it would come down to the

29:28

motivation of the prosecutor and it would

29:31

come down to where and how

29:33

much DNA you find, right? So

29:35

that because obviously a defense

29:38

is going to argue transfer.

29:40

It's transfer. The boys were in

29:42

the house, so that's how Terry's

29:44

DNA got on their shoelaces.

29:46

I've said this before and I'm not and

29:48

I'm not saying maybe it's it's not maybe

29:51

you don't be in this hypothetical scenario if

29:53

you did find Terry Hobbs skin cells on

29:55

all these bindings with the absence of

29:57

anybody else's on top of that right right

29:59

so like How do you, it's a

30:01

bullshit argument. Because even the hair to

30:03

me was a bullshit argument. And I

30:05

will say too, we don't know that

30:08

that was Terry's hair. It was one

30:10

in whatever, a few hundred people or

30:12

nine hundred people or nine hundred people

30:14

or somebody that could have had that.

30:16

That's many, you know, it doesn't mean

30:19

it was Terry's hair. But whoever's hair

30:21

that was, I believe, was the killer.

30:23

That's who did it. Because what you

30:25

have to remember is all three boys.

30:27

untied their shoes and then pulled the

30:30

laces through every islet in the shoes

30:32

to get them out and then retied

30:34

the knot in a different place from

30:36

where they were tied if the shoes

30:38

were just normally tied. And that hair

30:40

was inside of that knot. It was

30:43

bound inside of the knot, visible. Like

30:45

that's how they pulled it. They saw

30:47

it and they pulled it out with

30:49

tweezers. The idea that a kid... picked

30:51

up a hair while just happened to

30:54

be walking into a house, and then

30:56

rode around on their bikes for two

30:58

hours, ran through people's yards, ran across

31:00

the bridge, was playing in the mud,

31:02

got their shoes untied, pulled through all

31:05

the islets, and retied in the hair

31:07

they picked up from that person's house,

31:09

all those hours earlier, is still just

31:11

stuck to that shoelace, is a bullshit

31:13

argument as far as I'm concerned. So

31:15

if there is DNA found in these

31:18

ligatures, regardless of who it, let's say

31:20

it's not Damients, not Jason's, not Jesse's,

31:22

then there's a significant amount found in

31:24

these ligatures, regardless of its Terry Hobbs

31:26

or anybody else, is that enough to

31:29

vacate the conviction? And again, it depends

31:31

on the prosecutor, and it'll depend on

31:33

a judge that the prosecutor fights it,

31:35

but it kind of depends whose it

31:37

is too, right? So let's say... You

31:40

found a little bit of DNA on

31:42

one of the nods, but that DNA

31:44

comes back to someone who was convicted

31:46

of murdering a little boy in West

31:48

Memphis. after this, who had no connection

31:50

with the boys and they weren't in

31:53

their house. Pretty compelling. Yes. And you

31:55

can't explain it otherwise. Right. The problem

31:57

with, in this example, if it was

31:59

Terry's, is the boys were in his

32:01

house and that opens the door for

32:04

them to try to make the transfer

32:06

argument. But I could understand that in

32:08

the fact that they wouldn't go for

32:10

an arrest. Yeah. Like a second arrest.

32:12

But would it be enough to vacate

32:15

the three, because if they're not present

32:17

at present at all. But there's clearly

32:19

DNA present from somebody across the board,

32:21

even if it is Terry, and they

32:23

can say that it's transfer, the DNA

32:25

is still not there from the three.

32:28

Yeah, I would think, again, it's all

32:30

going to come back, it's come down

32:32

to the prosecutor and the judge, what

32:34

they want to do with it, but

32:36

I think you could certainly make the

32:39

argument of, again, this example, so Terry's

32:41

DNA is found, his skin cells are

32:43

found on these shoelaces, and the prosecutors

32:45

are like, well, well, I don't think

32:47

that's enough to try to try to

32:50

try to try to try to try

32:52

to try to try to try to

32:54

try to try to go after Terry,

32:56

to go after Terry. because they were

32:58

in his house. I think it's very

33:00

fair to make the argument. I think

33:03

this is what you're getting at to

33:05

say, well, if all it took was

33:07

for them to walk into his house

33:09

two hours earlier for two minutes, for

33:11

his DNA, his skin cells to be

33:14

stuck to all these shoelaces, then there's

33:16

no way that you can say that

33:18

Damien Eccles tied knots in those laces

33:20

and didn't leave a single cell of

33:22

DNA in them. So in that case

33:25

I would think logically you would be

33:27

able to use that to overturn the

33:29

conviction Yes, but again like I hate

33:31

to make those predictions because we've seen

33:33

some horrible shit for prosecutors and even

33:35

horrible or shit from judges It's not

33:38

feeling great right now Yeah, because it's

33:40

not happening in a vacuum Yeah, well,

33:42

I mean fingers cross this this new

33:44

DA seems to be motivated to get

33:46

things done, but then we're in this

33:49

delay right now so who knows but

33:51

to kind of get back to the

33:53

question as far as I think it

33:55

will depend on the the the volume

33:57

in the amount right so if you

34:00

find a couple of scary skin cells

34:02

on one of the knots or one

34:04

of the one of the shoelaces or

34:06

two of the shoelaces. I don't think

34:08

that'll be in it maybe enough to

34:10

overturn the conviction if they're willing if

34:13

they're motivated to do so don't think

34:15

it'll be enough to go after I

34:17

don't know because I'm just thinking of

34:19

the argument that anybody might make about

34:21

transfer. If you find Terry Hobbs DNA

34:24

skin cells in all 12 knots in

34:26

high volumes in high volumes in there's

34:28

not, you know, and it's either in

34:30

higher volume, either either either only his

34:32

or it's in higher volumes, it's a

34:35

mixture, and there's just a little bit

34:37

of the boy's DNA, but a lot

34:39

of his DNA, something like that, then

34:41

I think that, I mean, you would,

34:43

you would have to just throw away

34:45

of the prosecutor, or something like that,

34:48

then I think that, I mean, you

34:50

would, you would have to just throw

34:52

away your idea, there, there could be

34:54

a lot of scenarios, Pam's DNA on

34:56

there too. You know, then obviously, it's

34:59

like, it's going to be, we know,

35:01

we know Pam was at work when

35:03

all this happened. So like, well, I

35:05

mean, hers is on it, his is

35:07

on it. They're in the house, that's

35:10

clearly transfer, right? So you would expect

35:12

something like that. I don't think you

35:14

can make the argument if it's his

35:16

DNA and his DNA alone, and it's

35:18

in several places. Did

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self will thank you. I

37:31

don't know. I mean, I just go

37:34

round and round with thinking like, I

37:36

just, I guess people are just

37:38

wired differently and people just make

37:40

decisions for different reasons, but I

37:43

can tell you as sure as

37:45

I'm sitting here, for any one of

37:47

the three of us who strongly feel

37:49

confident to 100% sure that Jesse

37:51

and Jason and Damien had nothing

37:54

to do with this, if that

37:56

DNA came back and it had their

37:58

DNA all over those not... I would

38:00

take that incredibly seriously. I wouldn't know

38:02

how to reconcile it with all of

38:04

the other information we have, but I

38:06

would not go, I don't care. Yeah,

38:08

no, you can't get away from that.

38:10

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm...

38:12

Yeah. But there are people who are

38:14

like, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter,

38:16

it won't matter. No, that's crazy. Damien

38:18

has said to me, like, what he

38:20

was like, because, you know, all the

38:22

people that are like... It was a

38:25

publicity stunt. Everybody trying to make every

38:27

excuse for the fact that Damien has

38:29

been the one pushing for this DNA

38:31

testing for years now. He's the one

38:33

pushing for it. And he's said to

38:35

me, he's like, like, let's people understand.

38:37

Like, I know. If we do this,

38:39

and you find one of my skin

38:41

cells on those knots, then there is

38:43

no question that I'm guilty. Unless it's,

38:45

you know, somebody planted it there or

38:47

something afterware. But then again. That's not

38:49

as easy. People are worried about that.

38:51

It's always a possibility, but it's not

38:53

as easy as you think, because you

38:55

can also look at the degradation of

38:57

the DNA. You can tell if that

38:59

DNA has been sitting there for 30

39:01

years, or if it's been sitting there

39:03

for two years, or if it's been

39:05

sitting there for two years, like you

39:07

can tell the difference. Yeah. You know,

39:09

it would be hard to argue that.

39:11

But like you said, I have never

39:13

seen those boys, I have never met

39:15

those boys, I have never been to

39:18

be on anything there. And Damien knows,

39:20

and he also knows that if his

39:22

DNA is found there, then that's it.

39:24

Like the argument's over. I do want

39:26

to circle back because Matt said something

39:28

in the chat, said something in the

39:30

chat here, forgot about the other part

39:32

about it. He said that they want

39:34

to test the sticks too. I believe

39:36

that's part of it. I believe that's

39:38

part of what's kind of been kind

39:40

of pushing this back as the original

39:42

motion was just to test the bindings

39:44

to test the bindings. And I believe

39:46

the sticks are on that list because

39:48

that's what Suzanne Orion who we had

39:50

on she was the expert from pure

39:52

gold forensics that does the impact testing

39:54

that was on the docu series. She

39:56

said that's one and even though they

39:58

were full you know. The thing with

40:00

the knots is, any DNA skin

40:02

cells that were put on while the

40:05

knots were tied would be captured inside

40:07

the knot, and they would be protected

40:09

from the water from getting washed

40:11

away. Even though the sticks had

40:13

flowing water over them, which would

40:16

have washed a lot away, they're

40:18

also jagged edges, and the killer

40:20

would have had to push those down

40:22

into it. And so she said, she

40:24

thinks that that's a place they should

40:26

check. And also, the advantage of that,

40:28

and I think that's why Matt brought

40:30

it up, is that can't be explained

40:33

away. So let's say you've got

40:35

that hair, and again, this is

40:37

a hypothetical scenario, but say you also

40:39

find some of Terry's DNA in the

40:41

knot, and you can still make the

40:43

transfer argument, but then you also

40:45

find his DNA on one of those

40:47

sticks, there's no arguing that.

40:50

There's no reason for anybody's

40:52

suspect. No. No, that stick was

40:54

used to shove the boys close

40:56

down into the mud after the

40:58

murderer murdered them. That's the

41:01

only excuse for that. Yeah.

41:03

Tracy says, do we have a

41:05

date yet for the judge to sign

41:07

off? No, nobody, at least nobody that

41:10

I'm in the loop with knows

41:12

what's going on there. I know, at

41:14

least nobody that I'm in

41:16

the loop with knows what's going

41:18

on there. I know Damien's very

41:21

frustrated about it. And

41:23

that was a go, like that was a go,

41:25

it was happening, it was set to be signed,

41:27

and then literally the day before, the

41:29

evening before, what I was told was

41:31

the prosecutor was sick and couldn't make

41:33

it in, and so they were going to have

41:36

to reschedule it, but then it's been kind

41:38

of cricket since then. So, like, to be

41:40

honest with you, I'm concerned. I mean,

41:42

Damien has been concerned. Damien has had

41:44

the rug yanked out from him so

41:46

many times that, you know, when it

41:48

got resched scheduled in January, when

41:50

it got rescheduled in January.

41:52

He's like, that's it, it's never going to freaking happen,

41:54

that's done, they always do this to us, it's not

41:56

going to happen. And then it got rescheted for

41:58

February and hopes up again. Here we go,

42:00

let's get this thing signed. And it was

42:03

supposed to be like signed package shipped that

42:05

day. Evidence going to the labs. And then

42:07

he got pushed back again and he's like

42:09

the same bulls. They're not going to do

42:12

it. They're not going to do it. Something's

42:14

going to happen. They're not going to do

42:16

it. Something's going to happen. They're not going

42:18

to do it. They're not going to happen.

42:21

And at the time, I was like, it's

42:23

March 11th. You know, you've got what, we've

42:25

got what, two full weeks have gone by.

42:27

And nobody, you know, through anything I've heard

42:30

from Amy and other contacts I have that

42:32

are involved with it, like nobody ever is

42:34

just like, we don't know. We don't know

42:36

what's happening now. We don't know we're waiting.

42:39

We don't know what's going on. So I

42:41

really don't know what's going on. So I

42:43

really don't know what's going to happen right

42:45

now. As far as I know, I've... don't

42:48

need to indulge this very long with a

42:50

long answer. But, and what is the reason

42:52

that people who are 100% convinced that Damien

42:54

is guilty? What is the reason that they

42:57

give for him like desperately wanting this evidence

42:59

to be tested? So, well, I think, I

43:01

think they're kind of, I mean, I haven't

43:03

been, you know, I've pretty much kind of

43:06

gotten really off of social media in the

43:08

last few years. You don't have to know

43:10

the answer to this. I'd be glad if

43:12

you don't have to know the answer to

43:15

this. After the documentary, you know, in the

43:17

docu series, him and Jason and Jesse were

43:19

all interested in the yes test the evidence,

43:21

we did the big push at the end

43:24

of the docu series for people to put

43:26

pressure. That worked. They said they would test

43:28

it. Damien wanted to test it. And then,

43:30

you know, Ellington yank the rug out under

43:33

that. So the chessman, then Damien filed the

43:35

motion to do it. And then the argument

43:37

was, it's all a publicity stunt they done.

43:39

They were all a publicity stunt they were

43:42

done. They were on. They were on. They

43:44

were on there. They were on there. They

43:46

were on there. They were on there. They

43:48

were on there. They were on there. They

43:51

were on there. They were on there. They

43:53

were on there. They were on there. They

43:55

were on there. They were on there. They

43:57

were on there. They were on there. They

44:00

were on there. They were on there. They

44:02

were on there. They were on there. They

44:04

were on there. They were there's no way

44:06

they're going to let him test this evidence

44:09

and he knows that that's why he's pushing

44:11

forward so he can get money and by

44:13

the way Damien didn't get a dime for

44:15

anything even like the fundraising we did we

44:18

just paid experts for that like we helped

44:20

fund that work but like nobody gave Damien

44:22

any money for this and I know like

44:24

Damien is is I consider him a very

44:27

close personal friend at this point and and

44:29

I know his heart and what he just

44:31

wants is this to be over with and

44:33

and finally clear his name and finally find

44:36

the real killer and the same is true

44:38

with Jason I've met Jesse don't know Jesse

44:40

that well but I know Jason and Damien

44:42

pretty well And so that, then it got

44:45

denied and then it was like a really

44:47

through. See, he knew it was going to

44:49

get denied. That's all a publicity stunt. That's

44:51

all this is. And if you know, Damien,

44:54

what you'll really know is that he wants

44:56

the opposite of that. He does not want

44:58

any publicity. He's sick of publicity. He does

45:00

not want any publicity. He's sick of publicity.

45:03

He doesn't want any publicity. He's sick of

45:05

publicity. He doesn't want any publicity. He's the

45:07

opposite of that. He wants the opposite of

45:09

that. He does not want any publicity publicity.

45:12

He wants the opposite of that. He does

45:14

not want any publicity. He wants the opposite

45:16

of that. He wants the opposite of that.

45:18

He does not want any publicity. He wants

45:21

the opposite of that. He wants the opposite

45:23

of that. He wants the opposite of that.

45:25

He wants the opposite of that. He does

45:27

not want any publicity. He wants the opposite

45:30

of that. He wants the opposite of that.

45:32

He wants the opposite of that. He does

45:34

not But so that was the argument, but

45:36

then it got approved, or not approved, but

45:39

then we got, you know, got reminded back,

45:41

we're working out this deal. So I don't

45:43

know what they're saying now, but it's always

45:45

going to be some sort of pivot that

45:48

he doesn't really want to test. He doesn't

45:50

really want to test it. And my suspicion

45:52

is, once we get the order signed and

45:54

it's set out, they'll already immediately start creating

45:56

another narrative. you know there's of course there

45:59

are a lot of people that that think

46:01

that maybe because of the hair that maybe

46:03

Terry Hobbs DNA will be on and so

46:05

they already start creating narratives about that like

46:08

well obviously is gonna be there because you

46:10

know they're already planning for what they think

46:12

they're gonna find I don't know those some

46:14

of those people in my opinion there's never

46:17

like you the DNA could come back and

46:19

there could be a serial killers DNA on

46:21

all 12 knots and all over the sticks

46:23

and they could find that serial killer and

46:26

that serial killer could then confess to doing

46:28

it and explain why and exactly how it

46:30

happened that perfectly fits the evidence and there

46:32

was those people who still be like nah

46:35

Damien did it. Yeah I mean I guess

46:37

I I guess the thing that makes me

46:39

feel some comfort about that is very selfish,

46:41

which is comparing myself to that and going,

46:44

well, I know, I know that's not me.

46:46

Like, I'm very, I'm very open to the

46:48

truth. I just am. It's almost like I'm

46:50

on a podcast with that name in the

46:53

title. So that's, that's really all we have

46:55

for West Memphis 3. It's what we have

46:57

for Adnan. There is a question from Veronica

46:59

about whether or not we've been keeping up

47:02

Songboard Road. I will tell you right now

47:04

Veronica. I absolutely have been. And it is

47:06

very exciting. It's, there's just, that's a, quite

47:08

a story. Have you guys been keeping up

47:11

with it? Well, we were talking in the

47:13

pregame. Neither of us have like been able

47:15

to keep up, so we were hoping you

47:17

had. Oh, I'm very good up. That started

47:20

the 30-minute argument on the pregame. Okay. Okay.

47:22

Yeah. I can't imagine what, but I can't

47:24

wait to listen. No, I mean, I haven't

47:26

caught up, and it's not for lack of

47:29

interest. I think it's great, I'm super interested,

47:31

and I want to, but, you know, as

47:33

I told Bob and Lauren when I had

47:35

them on, it was like, you know, I'm

47:38

not convinced now, but the only, but the

47:40

thing is, like, I know, but the thing

47:42

is, like, I know, but the thing is,

47:44

like, like, I know, but the thing is,

47:47

like, like, if I continue to listen to

47:49

listen to listen to this thing, There is

47:51

some very exciting stuff that is totally coming

47:53

from this particular investigation. It's like never before

47:56

discovered that like Lauren and Mata discovered? That's

47:58

massive, massive. And then there's also just those

48:00

moments where you're just a gas that they

48:02

didn't, that there were things that they didn't

48:05

test and that there were opportunities there. There's

48:07

just no other, I mean, I just don't

48:09

know how you look at it any other

48:11

way than like. Then you don't want the

48:14

truth like there you have pieces of evidence

48:16

that you could have tested and that's things

48:18

that, you know, just getting the full picture.

48:20

It's just, it's just, it's just getting the

48:23

full picture. It's just investigating. It's really that

48:25

simple. It's really that simple. I had it

48:27

on my docket for this weekend. I was,

48:29

um, Quentin and Bella were home for spring

48:32

break from college, and I was going to

48:34

be taking Quentin back to college, which is

48:36

about a six-hour round trip, and I was

48:38

like, I'm going to catch up on that

48:41

drive on that drive. to listen to, I

48:43

have to start to listen to it at

48:45

the gym on the track. Yeah, and Amy,

48:47

I see your quote, your comment, yeah, it's

48:50

very hard, it's very hard to listen to,

48:52

I agree with you, anything, the same with,

48:54

forgotten West Memphis 3, I mean, I don't

48:56

know why I'm putting myself through all that

48:59

all over again, because all I mean, I

49:01

just cry, I cry during the somber road

49:03

episodes, I cried listening to you talk about

49:05

the kids, and how, and they're very real

49:08

children. who deserve justice and that's a really

49:10

hard part of being interested in all this

49:12

and being passionate about it. And so I

49:14

don't blame you. I'm not saying like, shame

49:17

on you, you should still listen. I completely

49:19

understand. We all know. We all know ourselves

49:21

and we have to take care of ourselves.

49:23

We have to take care of ourselves to

49:26

be the best versions of ourselves for ourselves,

49:28

for our loved ones, for the big picture

49:30

stuff that we're trying to work on. But

49:32

that being said, feel free to ask us

49:35

questions because it's real juicy. The good stuff

49:37

the interesting stuff is fascinating and infuriating. Oh,

49:39

I gotta finish it now We'll have to

49:41

we'll have to all talk about it when

49:44

we're caught up Yeah, real quick is before

49:46

we wrap things up about I plan on

49:48

talking about adding on stuff You miss it

49:50

just it's acknowledging where we're at right now

49:53

We have a emotional roller coaster last week.

49:55

Obviously, we had Ivan Bates that withdrew the

49:57

motion to vacate the conviction which puts you

49:59

know, add none, at a pretty serious risk

50:02

of having his conviction in place for the

50:04

rest of his life at this point. Not

50:06

for sure, there's other avenues, but pretty disheartening.

50:08

Then we got the ruling just a few

50:11

days ago that the judge ruled in the

50:13

JRA hearing and did rule to re-sentence Adden

50:15

on to time served. So that's where we're

50:17

at. Obviously, Robia and her Instagram, and I

50:20

know her and Colin are doing an undisclosed,

50:22

some episodes about it, they're going to be

50:24

explaining it. So that's your source, but just

50:26

for any of you that haven't caught up

50:29

on all that, just to hear from us.

50:31

So this is where things stand with that.

50:33

As far as Adnan going back to prison,

50:35

that ordeal is over. He is a free

50:38

man for the rest of his life. He

50:40

was sent, essentially it's as though he was

50:42

convicted. He was sentenced for, what, 23 years,

50:44

he served it, and he's out now, and

50:47

it's over for him. So, that's the good

50:49

news, is he can continue living his life

50:51

from here on now. The bad news is,

50:53

the conviction still stands, so he sells that

50:56

conviction hanging over his head, which... Thankfully with

50:58

the support network that he has between family

51:00

friends and just the world around him. I

51:02

don't think Adnan is going to struggle because

51:05

of that as far as like in a

51:07

practical way. Like he's already got a great

51:09

job. He, you know, people know that he's,

51:11

in a sense, people are working with him.

51:14

It's kind of like Ed, people know, you

51:16

know, he hasn't, that murder conviction hasn't stopped

51:18

him from from really, you know, moving on

51:20

with his life. So that's good. But it's

51:23

still. hanging over his head. He's still isn't

51:25

cleared and that sucks, but more so for

51:27

me the thing now that really bothers me

51:29

at this point is the thought of the

51:32

idea of someone actually going out now to

51:34

try to actually investigate this case and find

51:36

Hayman Lee's real killer is almost almost over

51:38

now. I mean I don't see a situation

51:41

where that's going to happen unless something spectacular

51:43

happened and somehow the defense comes up with

51:45

a way to overturn the conviction and even

51:47

then I don't know if there's going to

51:50

be a motivation to... to find her hazel

51:52

killer and that's the real injustice in all

51:54

of this when it's all said and done.

51:56

Absolutely. And with that being said on that

51:59

bummer of news a little bright shining light,

52:01

hopefully, put together this week's episode. And as

52:03

I mentioned at the top, my kid's podcast

52:05

is coming out on Wednesday this week. So

52:08

for those watching live, it's tomorrow, for those

52:10

in Friday, it's already out. Go to look

52:12

up the underestimated podcast, underestimated and bobcat media.

52:14

First episodes out, super excited about it. And

52:17

as we were leaving today, I thought you

52:19

know it would be a really cool episode

52:21

as if I grabbed the group leaders from.

52:23

My students, the group leaders that created, they're

52:26

creating these podcast. We sit them all down

52:28

in the studio at school and I interview

52:30

them and you guys can hear from them

52:32

about what this process has been like for

52:35

the students as they've been like for the

52:37

students as they've been going through this students

52:39

as they've been going through this. So, I

52:41

think that's what we're going to do for

52:44

Sunday. I think that would be, you know,

52:46

the whole idea, right, we're going to be

52:48

doing great work in the space. They're trying

52:50

to make a difference in the world. And

52:53

so I want to give them an opportunity

52:55

to share their stories beyond their scripted podcast

52:57

and let you get to know them a

52:59

little bit. So that's going to be the

53:02

Sunday. So make sure you guys tune in

53:04

for that and we'll talk all about it

53:06

in next week's follow-up. Janet. We're so glad

53:08

to have you guys. Tune in for that

53:11

and we'll talk all about it in next

53:13

week's follow-up. Janet. We're so glad to have

53:15

you have you. All about it next week's

53:17

follow up about it. And next week's Follow-up.

53:20

And next week's Follow-up. And next week's Follow-up.

53:22

Next week's Follow-up, Janet. Next week's Follow-up. Next

53:24

week's Follow-up. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll.

53:26

We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll.

53:29

We'll. We'll. We'll. We Yeah, as long as

53:31

their fifth hour teacher will let him out

53:33

tomorrow. Got it. All right, we'll talk to

53:35

you guys next week. Thanks everybody. Follow-up episodes

53:38

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55:46

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55:48

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