0:06

From NBI Studios,

0:09

this is Truth

0:12

and Justice, a

0:14

crowd-sourced investigation in

0:17

real time. I'm

0:19

Bob Roth. Uh-huh,

0:37

friends, thank you for tuning in to

0:39

Truth and Justice. You are listening to the

0:41

Friday follow-up for season 16, episode 8. This

0:43

week, Bob sat down with Raylene Baker to

0:46

discuss her role as the Dula program

0:48

manager at the Ostar Initiative. This was

0:50

a fascinating conversation about a

0:52

cause and service that I didn't even know

0:55

existed. We are Sands Janet today, but

0:57

Bob and I are here to dive into

0:59

your listener questions. But before we get

1:01

into that. Bob, I hear we have some West

1:03

Memphis Three News and some news on Jody's

1:05

case. Yeah, things are going to, I've

1:07

been kind of hinting at some stuff

1:09

from the West Memphis 3, but seems like

1:11

other people haven't followed all the rules, so

1:14

I'm not going to because we were kind

1:16

of keeping things quiet until everything's

1:18

out there. There's still some information

1:21

that hasn't come out yet, but as I've

1:23

mentioned before, we do have DNA testing

1:26

is moving forward. Fingers, we're still waiting

1:28

for like the signed order from the

1:30

judge to officially make it happen. both

1:32

Damien and Jason's attorneys have worked

1:34

on it and come to an

1:37

agreement with the district attorney to

1:39

do DNA testing and it was actually

1:41

supposed to go out and be

1:43

back already but there's but with

1:45

some scheduling conflicts so it looks

1:47

like as of right now from

1:49

what Damien told me the other

1:51

day or Lori did his wife it's

1:54

looking like February 25th

1:56

as when the test the everything should be

1:58

like shipped out for 10 So

2:00

it's just super exciting. It's kind of

2:03

surreal to think about the fact that

2:05

this case could finally actually be solved.

2:07

And there's even more news than that,

2:09

but that I'm not going to share.

2:11

What do we think a typical turnaround

2:13

time is for DNA testing? They made

2:15

it sound like they're kind of putting

2:18

a rush on it and it could

2:20

be like within a month. Wow. So

2:22

like by the end of March, if

2:24

things stay, you know, again it was

2:26

supposed to go out, I say last

2:28

week or the week or the week

2:31

before. And they were saying, like, we

2:33

should have results by February. So now

2:35

it's February 25th is when it's supposed

2:37

to go out. So it should be,

2:39

I would think, end of March. That

2:41

would be great. Yeah, we actually had

2:43

a listener right in, left a comment

2:46

saying, Anna saying, so annoyed to learn

2:48

that the DNA testing had been delayed

2:50

again. So I'm assuming that's what this

2:52

person's talking about. Yeah, was being pushed

2:54

back. But that's really exciting. Yeah, I'm

2:56

really exciting. pulled back on it because

2:59

I had been talking to the Conviction

3:01

Integrity Unit, the Attorney General's office, sent

3:03

them much information. Again, that's a kind

3:05

of a one-way communication. They're not allowed

3:07

to tell me what's going on. The

3:09

only assurance that I got from them

3:12

was, this is the way it's put

3:14

to me, this is not a case

3:16

that's just sitting on our desk. We

3:18

are actively working on this case right

3:20

now. And that's why, like I said,

3:22

we hit the stage in the investigation

3:24

where I was going to go out.

3:27

And after talking to the AG's office

3:29

at the C.I.U., it was made clear

3:31

that I shouldn't be out there doing

3:33

that right now because they're actively investigating.

3:35

Still know exactly where they're at on

3:37

everything, but what I do know is

3:40

that Jody was paid a visit at

3:42

the prison over the last week by

3:44

the investigators at the Conviction Integrity Unit.

3:46

Oh, that's so great to hear. Yeah,

3:48

and I believe it was not just,

3:50

I think it was the actual attorney

3:52

that's working on the case and the

3:55

investigators, so. like that's really good. So

3:57

we can infer a lot of things

3:59

from that, but you know, their their

4:01

job is to find convictions that are

4:03

not just and get them overturned. And

4:05

I think a lot of them that

4:08

they review, you know, they review them

4:10

realize there's nothing there and they move

4:12

on. The fact that, you know, they've

4:14

they've in my conversations with them, they're

4:16

actively investigating the case. It's been, gosh,

4:18

going on to over two months now

4:21

since I've Are they really doing anything

4:23

right now? Or is that just, you

4:25

know, lip service to kind of, you

4:27

know, get me off their back or

4:29

whatever? But hearing that they've, you know,

4:31

they went to the prison, tells me

4:33

a couple of things. One, yes, they

4:36

are absolutely actively working on the case.

4:38

And two tells me they believe that

4:40

they wouldn't be there talking to Jody

4:42

unless they thought there was merit there.

4:44

Yeah, it's great to hear that they're

4:46

not sitting on their hands because... We

4:49

all know how that works. Yeah, so

4:51

I was super excited to hear about

4:53

that. I heard from Jody and then

4:55

our listener Teresa, who visits Jody pretty

4:57

regularly, had got that message for Jody

4:59

to pass on as well. Yeah, it

5:02

sounds like, and Jody is super excited,

5:04

but feeling that same kind of feeling

5:06

that everybody we work with has, where

5:08

it's like, hope starts to creep in

5:10

and hope can be a dangerous and

5:12

a scary thing. No, really, I mean,

5:14

especially in Jody's case, I mean it's

5:17

been 20 years. Yeah. I mean, and

5:19

they want to get out the same

5:21

thing with Ed. You know, I mean,

5:23

Ed had been promised lots of things

5:25

and then you came along and gave

5:27

him hope, but he was scared of

5:30

it. And I think that's what we're

5:32

seeing with Jody right now as well.

5:34

Yeah, so hopefully I'm really hoping that

5:36

we're going to have major news in

5:38

Jody's case very soon. I do know

5:40

that, you know, in my, I said

5:42

a while ago people were talking about,

5:45

well, this was already litigated and so

5:47

you can't, you know, you know, you

5:49

know, you know, you know, That's not

5:51

an effective assistant council because somebody already

5:53

argued this or this or that. And

5:55

what I had said a while ago,

5:58

and I wanted everybody to keep in

6:00

mind, is this is a different situation.

6:02

This isn't a defense trying to come

6:04

up with an argument that's going to

6:06

be countered by the prosecution. This is

6:08

the prosecution. It's the state side coming

6:11

in and saying this conviction needs to

6:13

be overturned. And there is nobody to

6:15

fight against that. So there's not another

6:17

side. It's just them coming out as

6:19

the prosecutors if they decide that this

6:21

is what they're going to do to

6:23

overturn the conviction. And they only work

6:26

on actual. Innocence, actual innocence and wrongful

6:28

convictions. So it seems again, this is

6:30

not, I want to make very clear,

6:32

this is not a statement from them,

6:34

this is just my inference from what

6:36

I see happening. It seems like they

6:39

feel like there is some merit to

6:41

the idea at the very least that

6:43

Jody is innocent, where they've taken the

6:45

steps to, I know they've been actively

6:47

investigating now from about nine months since

6:49

we started the season. and they've moved

6:51

forward to actually going out and interviewing

6:54

Jody about it. I think that's a

6:56

big step. Yeah. And it's a good,

6:58

it's a step in the right direction.

7:00

At least we know that they're doing

7:02

something. Yep. So we'll definitely keep you

7:04

guys updated on that, but I don't

7:07

know, I feel like 2025. I just

7:09

feel in my bones that in 2025

7:11

Jody's coming home. That's gonna be freaking

7:13

awesome. That's great. And that's great news

7:15

to be on your birthday guys. You

7:17

missed it now, it's too late. Oh

7:20

goodness. Erica tried to fatten me up

7:22

for my birthday. Of course she did.

7:24

She tricked me. So I don't know

7:26

that she tricked you, but you're going

7:28

to say she did. Well, she did

7:30

trick me. Well, she did trick me.

7:32

And she'll be proud of tricking me,

7:35

I'm sure. I was going to be

7:37

leaving before I got here. But she

7:39

was texting me and she was like,

7:41

she was going to be leaving before

7:43

I got here. I don't know what

7:45

you're talking about, but I don't think

7:48

there's anything in there. She's like, it's

7:50

gross. I tried to clean it up,

7:52

it's like sticky, it's what, I'm like,

7:54

what is in there? She's like, I

7:56

have no idea, but you need to

7:58

look at, you need to get this

8:00

cleaned up when you get back. I

8:03

liked it. She's like, you need to

8:05

get those clean. Yeah. So yeah. So

8:07

I came home and opened the fridge

8:09

and there in the fridge was a

8:11

box of crumble cookies. Well done here.

8:13

Yeah. She put a nice little note

8:16

to me on there and then I

8:18

proceeded to eat all those cookies. Well

8:20

done. I mean, I just brought my

8:22

family to your house for your birthday.

8:24

Like, here's my family. Yeah. I didn't

8:26

cheat it. My wife brought me cookies.

8:29

And then I ate them. Oh. It

8:31

was rough. I had my giant donuts

8:33

for my birthday. Amazing. Yeah, which were

8:35

amazing. And then Michelle brought cookies. And

8:37

then at school, one of my students,

8:39

which was really sweet, baked me brownies

8:41

and brought me in brownies and then

8:44

the school. the principal secretary, which if

8:46

they're working in school, you know she's

8:48

the one that actually runs the school.

8:50

She put cookies on my desk when

8:52

I was out of my room, so

8:54

I had cookies, and then I got

8:57

home and had crumble cookies. It sounds

8:59

like it's a good thing that First

9:01

Form is sponsoring the podcast. Yeah, I

9:03

need it. Now, I gained 27 pounds.

9:05

One weekend. Happy birthday. Oh, happy birthday,

9:07

Bob. Thank you. And we didn't mention,

9:10

Jack did mention that we were without

9:12

Janet today, she's on assignment. So she

9:14

was, we scheduled this early recording this

9:16

week, because we kind of liked doing

9:18

it earlier, and Janet was coming back

9:20

from Sketch Fest in San Francisco. Sounds

9:22

like, for if I'm understanding anything right,

9:25

the good news is that it started

9:27

a rain in California, and the wildfires

9:29

are under control. The bad news is

9:31

that because the hillsides all burned up

9:33

and now it's raining there's mudslides all

9:35

over the place and a lot of

9:38

the roads that I think the roads

9:40

were shut down between San Francisco and

9:42

LA so she couldn't get home yesterday

9:44

so she's tough but she's there open

9:46

up now she's on her way home

9:48

good and she also caught the sketch

9:50

fest bug just like last year of

9:53

course yeah she's also sick like it's

9:55

hard not to do that mm-hmm we

9:57

missy Janet Janet yeah Oh. So,

10:12

all right, with that, we'll get into

10:14

this week's episode. This was, man, this

10:16

came to me, I went and checked

10:18

the PO box shockingly, and it was

10:20

just a card that she had sent

10:22

that was just, you know, hey, just

10:25

want to tell you about our, you

10:27

know, our program and what we do,

10:29

we get, you know, you know, a

10:31

lot of male people said stuff in,

10:33

and I was like, reading through family

10:35

members of people who were in prison.

10:37

It just fascinated me, so I thought,

10:39

reach out and talk to her. No,

10:41

as I said in the intro, I

10:43

mean, it's, it was fascinating conversation, and

10:45

I had no clue that that was

10:48

even something that was offered or wouldn't

10:50

need to be. Like you said, you

10:52

don't think about that. You don't think

10:54

about the idea of these, of these

10:56

people going to prison that are pregnant

10:58

and having to have give birth in

11:00

prison in prison, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah

11:02

never ever would occur to me that

11:04

I thought there'd be something that was

11:06

like very very rare but apparently happens

11:08

all the time. I wonder if that's

11:10

like I wonder what like the national

11:13

average is like if that's pretty close

11:15

to national average. Yeah I don't know

11:17

but it's definitely if just in Minnesota

11:19

that's the case then I'm sure that

11:21

plenty of other states you know need

11:23

the same help. No it was it

11:25

was a great interview and it was

11:27

really nice to hear that not only

11:29

are they supporting the the people having

11:31

the children that are giving the children

11:33

that are giving birth but the families

11:35

and helping with parenting There's so many

11:38

little support groups that they have made

11:40

that it's really really nice to see.

11:42

Yeah. And with that we'll get into

11:44

some we don't we don't have a

11:46

lot of questions and also truth be

11:48

told both Zach and I were thinking

11:50

Janet was putting together her outline and

11:52

we both at the last minute realized

11:54

that of course she's not she's died

11:56

here so we just threw together a

11:58

few of the posts from Facebook so

12:01

we'll go through those probably a short

12:03

episode today because we don't have a

12:05

whole lot of questions from her. everybody,

12:07

but let's get into what we got.

12:09

So this first one's from Nicole. She

12:11

says, great interview. I enjoyed learning about

12:13

criminal justice related topic that isn't often

12:15

talked about. I think Raylene and her

12:17

group are doing great work providing support

12:19

through pregnancy, childbirth, and beyond. Forming and

12:21

maintaining family bonds seems like it should

12:23

be an important part of the systems

12:26

reported aimed at rehabilitation. Yeah, I mean

12:28

not a question there, but yeah, I

12:30

agree. I don't know what else to

12:32

say about this other than it's just

12:34

fascinating. And I really hope that maybe

12:36

through us doing the podcast about it

12:38

and some of the other work they're

12:40

doing, they get a little more exposure

12:42

in there are other states that pick

12:44

up on this. Because I thought it

12:46

was the idea of support for the

12:48

families on the outside, I think is

12:51

a huge one too. I remember talking

12:53

to Ed, you know, when Kim and

12:55

Kyra and Zach started going into the

12:57

prison to visit him when they hadn't

12:59

in a long time. That's such an

13:01

awkward interaction. It's scary, like if you've

13:03

ever been to a prison, it's not,

13:05

you know, you don't just waltz in,

13:07

you're going through metal detectors, you have

13:09

all these rules, you've got to follow,

13:11

all this stuff, like to have somebody

13:13

there to support them, it's just, it

13:16

just can't say enough good things about

13:18

them. So again, this is another one

13:20

from a listener, not a question, but

13:22

Erica says that there is a show

13:24

called, Inside the world's toughest toughest toughest

13:26

prisons, it's, who was wrongly incarcerated for

13:28

12 years for a murder he did

13:30

not commit. It's fascinating insight in the

13:32

world's prison systems. So it sounds like

13:34

something we should check out. She did

13:36

leave a link as well on the

13:39

fan page, but it could be an

13:41

interesting thing to check out. Yeah, any

13:43

of those shows or documenters you can

13:45

find about how life is like in

13:47

prison. I think it's just good to

13:49

educate people and just open up people's

13:51

minds to what those conditions are, especially

13:53

from our community. who we're aware of

13:55

the fact that number one not everybody

13:57

in there is guilty and realize that

13:59

even the even the people that are

14:01

that they are people like we need

14:04

to do better in that I think

14:06

that's a big step with what Raylene

14:08

is doing is even if people did

14:10

something wrong and they're in prison still

14:12

treating them like a human being. Yeah.

14:14

And I think you're right and she

14:16

talked about that a little bit just

14:18

like the different countries and Haley brings

14:20

that up about the travels to Norway

14:22

and finding out how other countries handle

14:24

the situation and she wonders if it's

14:26

realistic to implement some of those policies

14:29

and strategies in the United States. I

14:31

certainly would hope so because we bring

14:33

up Norway a lot over the years

14:35

because of their... the way their prison

14:37

systems work, but just to have a

14:39

prison system that is focused on rehabilitation

14:41

as opposed to punishment would be incredible.

14:43

And also, I want to, I just

14:45

need to say this out loud while

14:47

we're doing this episode. If there's ever

14:49

an episode, we need Janet. We need

14:51

Janet. I'm sitting here fighting myself thinking

14:54

of like, Janet would have so much

14:56

to say about this. And she's not

14:58

here. We're sitting here stumbling through this.

15:00

So Janet feel better next week and

15:02

we're going to talk about this more.

15:04

So is it only Norway that has

15:06

some of these policies or are there

15:08

other European countries that have some of

15:10

these more? I think there are, I

15:12

mean a lot of countries do things

15:14

differently than we do. Like I want

15:17

to say even like in the UK,

15:19

like a life sentence is still like

15:21

20 years. I could be wrong about

15:23

that, but Norway is kind of like,

15:25

from my research and this was years

15:27

ago, was kind of like the gold

15:29

standard of, you know, the fact that

15:31

they don't have... I don't think they

15:33

have any sentences over 20 years, even

15:35

for murder. And they're really focused on

15:37

rehabilitation. Their sentences are shorter. They give

15:39

people another chance. The fact that they

15:42

do that in their recidivism rate is

15:44

really low. It's lower than we have,

15:46

which should be an eye-opener to people

15:48

to say, like, that works. Like, we

15:50

take our... I always said, you know,

15:52

after I learned what things are really

15:54

like in prison, like, it's really difficult

15:56

if you go into prison. not a

15:58

monster it's hard to walk out of

16:00

it still not a monster you know

16:02

what I mean because you know we

16:04

heard from we hear from people over

16:07

and over and over again. We've heard

16:09

it with, you know, Jody's had their

16:11

struggles over and over again. Of course,

16:13

Jody being trans makes it even more

16:15

difficult for them. But like Jesse Eldridge

16:17

in season three, by the way, by

16:19

the way, I know we talked about

16:21

this, by the way, I know we

16:23

talked about this, but just while we're

16:25

talking about this, you know, we've got

16:27

DNA testing happening in Jesse. And Jesse

16:29

was like, it's so hard to stay

16:32

out of trouble. Jesse went to prison

16:34

and was like, well, I just want

16:36

to mind my own business. But like,

16:38

these gangs set up, right? And there's

16:40

like the white supremacist gang, which Jesse

16:42

would have nothing to do with. And

16:44

then there's the black-suppremesis gang, which Jesse

16:46

would have nothing to do with. And

16:48

then there's the black gang and the

16:50

Mexican gang. And there's like, like, we

16:52

shouldn't have to mind yourself and fight.

16:55

We should have a prison system where

16:57

somebody can go in and serve their

16:59

time and be treated like a human

17:01

and get out and not be afraid

17:03

for their lives every second that they're

17:05

in there. What do you think it

17:07

is that snowballed the US into this

17:09

prison system in this case of punishment

17:11

like this? I think that it's always

17:13

kind of been that way. I think

17:15

it was always looked at as punishment,

17:17

but then, you know, later the privatization

17:20

of our prison systems. has made that

17:22

even worse because, you know, now you

17:24

have people that are running the prisons

17:26

who are just trying to make a

17:28

profit. They want as many people in

17:30

there as they can get, they get

17:32

paid for every person that's in the

17:34

prison. And it just, it just like

17:36

starts to put in all of these

17:38

layers of, you know, of separation between

17:40

the inmate and the people that are

17:42

responsible for making the decisions. And I

17:45

think it's just snowball. And it was

17:47

easy to do and continues to be

17:49

easy to do because... People in society

17:51

generally don't look at the people that

17:53

are in prison as humans. They look

17:55

at them as their animals. And like

17:57

I've said many times before, I used

17:59

to feel that way. Before I was

18:01

really educated in what's going on inside

18:03

of our prisons and really started looking

18:05

at the humanitarian aspects of all this,

18:07

I was looking like, well, it's miserable

18:10

and it was kind of like, for

18:12

me, it was like, good, well, fuck

18:14

them. They broke the law, they got

18:16

to do their time. So I think

18:18

there's a lot of that, I think

18:20

that attitude, obviously that attitude has changed

18:22

for me over the years. But I

18:24

think that attitude is what is allowed

18:26

this. So you have a system that

18:28

is driven by money and not about

18:30

people. You've got too many layers of

18:33

separation between the decision makers and the

18:35

inmates, or they really don't even see

18:37

them as people anymore, and they're really

18:39

don't even see them as people anymore.

18:41

And then they're allowed to get away

18:43

with them as people anymore. And then

18:45

they're allowed to get away with it

18:47

because they're allowed to get away with

18:49

it. And they're allowed to get away

18:51

from me as when you start. putting

18:53

together and it's not just this and

18:55

everybody has the human rights and should

18:58

be taken care of but in my

19:00

head when you're thinking of prison I'm

19:02

thinking of murderers and all these these

19:04

really atrocious things right and then you

19:06

have people going there for white collar

19:08

crimes that are in there with these

19:10

same people and you kind of forget

19:12

about this whole the the whole idea

19:14

of that these people are people well

19:16

and even look at like the cycle

19:18

that we have like in like in

19:20

inner cities where you have lower socio

19:23

economic areas where people get caught in

19:25

this cycle so that how many people

19:27

are in there for probation violations and

19:29

for minor drug offenses or for even

19:31

burglary or robbery because you know they

19:33

can't afford to live they come out

19:35

and they can't get a job and

19:37

they get sucked back into this cycle

19:39

you know these are not bad people

19:41

they're just stuck in a bad situation.

19:43

All those people exist. You know what

19:46

as long as we have time and

19:48

we're kind of on the topic I

19:50

was literally just today was having a

19:52

conversation with somebody. that kind of leads

19:54

back into the way that where that

19:56

question was posed by you you know

19:58

where does this come from. A lot

20:00

of it, a lot of what is

20:02

happening in our criminal justice system, to

20:04

me, has a lot to do with

20:06

racism. And it's not as on the

20:08

nose. So the conversation I was having

20:11

with this person was, they were talking

20:13

about, it came out with somebody about

20:15

getting a job and they're like, well,

20:17

maybe they don't do drug tests anymore.

20:19

Nobody really does drug testing, or at

20:21

least not for marijuana. The person we

20:23

were talking about smokes marijuana. And they're

20:25

like, well, that's not true. They do

20:27

that and it just let us end

20:29

this conversation about why smoking. I think

20:31

it's so weird now that smoking marijuana,

20:33

even though it's legalized in so many

20:36

states, is still stigmatized, right? Like you're

20:38

a bad person if you smoke weed,

20:40

but drinking alcohol is almost glorified. And

20:42

it's like if you look at there's

20:44

no arguing the science about it at

20:46

all. Alcohol is far, far more dangerous

20:48

than marijuana. I agree. The effects it

20:50

has on your body, the effects it

20:52

has on your driving, your decision-making skills,

20:54

all that stuff is way more dangerous

20:56

and way more harmful than marijuana. But

20:58

when your kid turns 21, you can't

21:01

wait to take him out to the

21:03

bar and have your first beer with

21:05

him. Right. Alcohol is the thing that,

21:07

you know, I don't drink much anymore.

21:09

For some reason I have to answer

21:11

questions about that any time I go

21:13

out with it, and not with you

21:15

guys, but with other people, you know,

21:17

if you're like, I don't want to

21:19

drink, well, why aren't you drinking? Like,

21:21

it's a weird thing, right? Well, it's

21:24

a social lubricant. Right. But when your

21:26

kid turns 21, nobody wants to go,

21:28

you know, smoke the first joint joint

21:30

with him. Yeah. And that conversation. I

21:32

feel like, and I know there's been

21:34

a lot of studies about this, and

21:36

a lot of people feel the same

21:38

way, that the marijuana laws, I think,

21:40

come back to racism. If you go

21:42

way back, it was primarily the black

21:44

community were the ones that... were smoking

21:46

marijuana from you know whatever ready and

21:49

who knows how verifiable these studies are

21:51

but those marijuana laws were it was

21:53

a way to lock up people of

21:55

color you know at the time that

21:57

wasn't a popular drug with the white

21:59

people but in the black communities that

22:01

was a very popular drug and so

22:03

you know that became the thing and

22:05

it worked so well this person that

22:07

I was having this conversation with like

22:09

they finally backed off it during the

22:11

during the exchange where They're like, yeah,

22:14

I've never really thought about it like

22:16

that, but they were arguing to the

22:18

nail. I was like, no, dude, smoking

22:20

pot, like, I don't want my kid

22:22

smoking pot, but you're fine with him

22:24

drinking alcohol. Well, that's not as big

22:26

of a deal. I'm like, it's way

22:28

bigger, it's way, way worse than the

22:30

two. Like, if I had the two,

22:32

it's way, way worse than the two.

22:34

Like, if I had the two, like,

22:36

if I had the choice, like, if

22:39

I had the choice, if I had

22:41

the choice, if I had the choice,

22:43

if I had the kid, if I

22:45

had the kid, I had the kid,

22:47

like, I had the kid, like, like,

22:49

like, I had the kid, like, like,

22:51

like, like, like, like, I had the

22:53

kid, like, like, like, like, like, like,

22:55

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

22:57

like, like, like, like And you talk

22:59

about that, I don't think it's, I

23:02

still think it's villainized to a certain

23:04

aspect, but I know like here in

23:06

Michigan where we live, it's legal, and

23:08

you're definitely seeing more and more people

23:10

outside of the norm talking about it

23:12

and partaking in it. Being the fact

23:14

that I tattoo for a living and

23:16

I sit and talk to people all

23:18

day every day. Yeah. I have all

23:20

walks of life that come in and

23:22

talk about it. People that in higher

23:24

positions that you wouldn't expect that partake

23:27

in it. because of the legalization of

23:29

it. That's why it was kind of

23:31

like taken aback by the conversation that

23:33

it was that he was still so,

23:35

you know, so down on anybody that

23:37

smoke, you know, there are pot heads

23:39

or whatever. I'm like, dude, like, I

23:41

guarantee there's 20 people in your office

23:43

right now. Yeah, that, that, that, that,

23:45

that, take gummies or smoke or hit

23:47

a bait pen or whatever regularly. Yeah,

23:49

like, but there's, but there's, but there's,

23:52

but there's, but there's still, you know,

23:54

you know, you know, you know, you

23:56

know, you know, you know, is it's

23:58

the kind of that tough on crime

24:00

type of aspect you know how our

24:02

prisons got to be the way they

24:04

they are i think that's another reason

24:06

and you know that that like that

24:08

alone those the laws regarding marijuana use

24:10

I think I think they've shaped the

24:12

course of history you know like like

24:14

I know from when I used to

24:17

work and teach up kids in Benton

24:19

Harbor and I worked at the juvenile

24:21

detention center and it's dude's good and

24:23

I it was like a revolving door

24:25

of students going in and out it

24:27

was always marijuana charges you know they

24:29

would they would get popped with pot

24:31

you know the cops would pull up

24:33

to them, shake them down. find a

24:35

baggy of weed on them, lock them

24:37

up, now they're on probation, they go

24:40

back and then they're following around again,

24:42

they're around somebody that has, and it's

24:44

like, they just keep, it's like, that

24:46

silly little plant kept them stuck in

24:48

that system over and over and over

24:50

again, whether they were using it or

24:52

not using it, because it was everywhere

24:54

in Benton Harbor back then, you know,

24:56

that was, you know, 20 years ago,

24:58

now again, it's a little different because

25:00

it's a little different because it's legal,

25:02

I wonder how much that shaped those

25:05

communities today way back then when that

25:07

drug was used as a drug than

25:09

air quote was used to track people

25:11

into the system. Man I've never I

25:13

never once thought about it like that

25:15

that's a really interesting concept of income.

25:17

So since we're on this topic and

25:19

we were talking about Norway and their

25:21

present systems like What would it take

25:23

for our policies to change? I mean,

25:25

it seems like some huge hurdles here

25:27

in the United States to change these

25:30

policies, but it's something that could be

25:32

done. It could be. It would have

25:34

to become from the top on down.

25:36

I think that, and I'm not in

25:38

any way intending to get political, and

25:40

I'm not even having this conversation with

25:42

anybody, but I don't think with the

25:44

layout of power we have right now

25:46

that's going to happen in the next

25:48

couple of years anyway, if not in

25:50

the next four years. We now have

25:52

we're back to a tough on crime

25:55

party in power that are are going

25:57

to be pushing it back against those

25:59

things. But that's what it takes is

26:01

electing the right people, who care. But

26:03

the other part of it is like,

26:05

whatever side of the political spectrum you're

26:07

on, the people that you think so

26:09

great, I promise you are lining, getting

26:11

their pockets lined by special interests, including

26:13

private prisons and everywhere, all over, like

26:15

there's a reason why we still keep

26:18

talking about things over and over again

26:20

and why nothing ever actually seems to

26:22

get fixed, because nobody actually wants their

26:24

pockets getting aligned. But it could happen.

26:26

It would take us, the people, like,

26:28

rising up and doing something about it

26:30

and putting the right people in office

26:32

and holding our politicians accountable on both

26:34

sides of the aisle for that to

26:36

happen. Well, I know you said that

26:38

before, you talk about local, like local

26:40

elections, and you said, you need to

26:43

beware of people that run on a

26:45

tough on crime platform. You should be

26:47

suspect of that. Any like county sheriff,

26:49

district attorney, that's running on a tough

26:51

on crime, even your governors, you know,

26:53

when your governors are running. and they're

26:55

running on the I'm a tough on

26:57

crime person I would be real skeptical

26:59

I'm not saying that means you can't

27:01

vote for that person everybody needs to

27:03

do a lot of research and everybody

27:05

makes their own decisions but that to

27:08

me that's always a red flag like

27:10

what do you mean by that I

27:12

want to look into your history I

27:14

want to see them asking question what

27:16

does that mean to you because it

27:18

doesn't mean the same thing to everyone

27:20

but that's always a concern for me

27:22

because what I just want is justice

27:24

I want there's a tough balance between

27:26

keeping violent criminals off the street And

27:28

then also like building a community up

27:31

and I feel like that tough on

27:33

crime mindset is never designed to build

27:35

a community up. Right. And I think

27:37

that's where that rehabilitation comes from, right?

27:39

Like you're taking these violent offenders and

27:41

you're trying to not just lock them

27:43

away for the rest of their years,

27:45

but trying to rehabilitate them so they

27:47

can go out into society and be

27:49

productive and raise the whole community up.

27:51

And you do see people that have

27:53

done that. But it hasn't come out

27:56

in the numbers that we need. Well,

27:58

there's a prevention side of it too

28:00

that I think... gets missed all the

28:02

time. That's one of the things when

28:04

we went to Benton Harbor when I

28:06

was talking to the people of the

28:08

community and they said like we don't

28:10

have any community with our law enforcement.

28:12

We don't trust them, we don't talk

28:14

to them, we nobody, like I think

28:16

there's on the front end if police

28:18

departments can start like building community relationships

28:21

or wherever they're at and they can

28:23

help prevent some of this stuff from

28:25

happening on the front end by by

28:27

by kind of bridging that gap a

28:29

little bit. So to me, that's the

28:31

perfect world that I want to live

28:33

in. I want to live in a

28:35

world where I have a police department

28:37

that has a presence, where people feel

28:39

safe because they're there, but they're not

28:41

afraid of the police, because they're there,

28:43

but they're not afraid of the police,

28:46

because they're not afraid of the police,

28:48

because they're not afraid of the police,

28:50

so that makes a little more sense

28:52

for us. But whatever you're precinct is,

28:54

that if the police are on the

28:56

police are on the and building that

28:58

community trust. I think that goes a

29:00

long way. It also goes a long

29:02

way when something bad does happen and

29:04

people have that trust with the police

29:06

and they're willing to talk to them

29:09

and help them find the violent people

29:11

and get them and help them find

29:13

the violent people and get them off

29:15

the street. And you talk to them

29:17

and help them find the violent people

29:19

and get them off the street. I

29:21

mean, you talk about that in Harvard

29:23

and our whole last season about Bent

29:25

and Harvard, but that's exactly it. The

29:27

police show up, they don't want to

29:29

keep quiet. Right. and that's something that

29:31

just cannot happen. And there's so many

29:34

other communities, that's not the case. And

29:36

is it racism? Is it socio-economic? I

29:38

don't know what it is. It's a

29:40

little bit of everything. Probably yes. Probably

29:42

yes. Yeah. So

29:56

I do have an off-topic question from

29:59

Monica. says any chance of getting Susan

30:01

Simpson on again for any updates on

30:03

the proofcases or a new season. Probably

30:05

not to reach out to Susan. I

30:07

did hear something about Undisclosed that they're

30:09

going to drop Colin's bombshell? Yeah, I

30:11

think I missed that. I just saw

30:13

a post about it, but I believe

30:15

Rabi announced when Undiscloses come back, but

30:17

I thought I saw it wasn't going

30:19

to be until next January. I don't

30:21

know. I didn't see the, I just

30:23

saw there was people clamoring because they're

30:25

finally going to... drop Collins bombshell. Yeah,

30:27

so and I think that was part

30:29

of the announcement that when they relaunch

30:31

undisclosed that Collins bombshell we've all been

30:33

waiting for for years is finally going

30:35

to get released. So that's exciting. That

30:37

is exciting. This next one's from Olivia.

30:39

It says I've listened to a bit

30:41

of the appeals discussion Bob Mata has

30:44

had regarding Delphi and I find it

30:46

interesting how how different the process is

30:48

in every state. I work in the

30:50

appellate court in California and our processes

30:52

and rules are much different. It is

30:54

going to be very interesting to see

30:56

what happens with the appeal, and I

30:58

hope everyone involved gets the justice they

31:00

deserve. Yeah, and they're talking about the

31:02

Delphi case. On that note, so on

31:04

my little outline I wrote, I had

31:06

put that that'll be the last question,

31:08

but then you wrote your own outline

31:10

also. Oops. Yeah, that's fine. But I'll

31:12

tell you guys now. Talk to Bob.

31:14

I've started reading through and listening through

31:16

some of the stuff, the new things

31:18

that have come out in Richard Allen's

31:20

appeal. that was suppressed that the judge

31:22

wouldn't allow to come in and they're

31:24

sharing what some of that evidence is.

31:26

I gotta know, I gotta talk about

31:29

it. So next Monday, for you patrons,

31:31

next Monday I think we're doing it

31:33

at 6 p.m. 7 p.m. Eastern time,

31:35

patrons will be able to watch live,

31:37

but I got Bob coming on to

31:39

talk about all the new updates in

31:41

the Delphi case, but that episode will

31:43

err not this coming Sunday, but the

31:45

following Sunday. Okay, I'm excited to hear

31:47

that. I might actually try to tune

31:49

in for that one because I really

31:51

want to hear what Bob's got going

31:53

on. Yeah, and I'll, and we'll talk

31:55

some about the process stuff and what

31:57

we... what needs to happen or what

31:59

you know how things work in indiana

32:01

compared to other states to in that

32:03

conversation okay so the last thing we

32:05

have on the docket today is is

32:07

really just a statement it's not a

32:09

question comes from Laura and uh... she's

32:12

kind of going through this process with

32:14

herself says when i was ten my

32:16

father was convicted of a white collar

32:18

crime tax evasion and sent to a

32:20

maximum security prison where he was sentenced

32:22

to two years but served under nine

32:24

months if i recall correctly His trial

32:26

was televised on the local news and

32:28

I live in a very small privileged

32:30

town. So it was socially impactful. Fortunately,

32:32

I was financially secure and my parents

32:34

had been long divorced, so my day

32:36

to day was not rocked, but there

32:38

was literally no support for my mom,

32:40

my brother, or I. It was confusing,

32:42

intimidating, and just sad. I recall the

32:44

process of just getting into the prison

32:46

to see him more than any conversation

32:48

I had with my family. I set

32:50

off metal detectors with my zipper on

32:52

my shirt. Both my mom and I

32:54

were terrified. They pulled us aside, had

32:57

to do a mild body check. We

32:59

weren't pariahs in our town, but it

33:01

was definitely felt like being on a

33:03

boat in the middle of the ocean

33:05

with nothing to grab onto. I came

33:07

out unscathed, but my brother, for reasons

33:09

including and beyond this, always struggled even

33:11

now 39 years later. I cannot imagine

33:13

the centering calming an ease it would

33:15

have brought to us, have one single

33:17

understanding face and voice in that chaos.

33:19

So sending the hugest gratitude to anyone

33:21

working in this field, His sentence was

33:23

his to bear, not his 10 and

33:25

12-year-old children. I think that's a great

33:27

story to kind of point out how

33:29

the work that Raylene does in her

33:31

organization does to affect real people's lives.

33:33

That's exactly what we were talking about

33:35

earlier. Like having someone there, because remember

33:37

from the episode, that was part of

33:39

what they do, is like to be

33:42

there, when the family members go to

33:44

visit their loved one in prison, just

33:46

to be there in the room with

33:48

them and guide them through the process,

33:50

because I'm telling you. It's true. When

33:52

you walk into a prison like that,

33:54

even like when I went to go

33:56

visit Ed for the first time, it's

33:58

first time I ever went to... prison

34:00

to talk to someone, to visit someone.

34:02

I had no idea what to expect. I

34:04

didn't know what the procedures were. I didn't

34:06

know what I needed to do next. I

34:08

didn't know where I was going to go.

34:10

I was terrified. You know, it's just super

34:13

nerve-wracking. So even just for me,

34:15

it's just for me, it's just for me,

34:17

it's just for me, it's just for me,

34:19

it's just for me, it's just for me,

34:21

and this is how this works, and this

34:23

works, and you're going to do you're

34:25

going to do you're going to do you're

34:27

going to do. All the love in the world

34:29

out to Raylene and her organization. Thank you

34:32

for the work that you're doing and hope

34:34

you're able to expand on that. And again,

34:36

you know, we put her in the main

34:38

episode, we had a link to the organization,

34:40

if you're able to donate to help them

34:43

or volunteer to work with them, if anybody

34:45

that lived in Minnesota, or where rest

34:47

were there, Alabama, I think was the other place

34:49

they were. Yeah, and they just opened a federal

34:51

one as well, a federal division. Yeah. Please help

34:54

them out if you can do that. So

34:56

with that being said, we're going

34:58

to wrap this thing up. This

35:00

Sunday, guys, we have a very

35:02

special guest. I reached out

35:04

to this person because I was, you

35:06

know, I'm on the hunt for

35:08

anyone that is doing really

35:11

good work in the space that

35:13

is trying to make a

35:15

difference in an impact on the

35:17

world. And that led me to a

35:19

podcast called Rainbow Crimes.

35:22

And she covers all cases that

35:24

involve people. And please forgive me

35:26

if I get that because I

35:28

always get these acronyms wrong. The

35:31

LGBTQAI plus? That sounds right.

35:33

I think so. It's close. But

35:35

people in that community, whether

35:37

they are victims or perpetrators,

35:39

that's CJ's entire focus of

35:42

the entire podcast, and she

35:44

has even started her own

35:46

podcast network, where she does several

35:48

other shows like that. So I had

35:50

a great conversation with CJ. That's going

35:53

to come up this Sunday. And then

35:55

for our patrons on Monday at 7

35:57

p.m. Eastern Time, you can tune in

35:59

and watch. live as I talked to

36:01

Bob Mata about the developments in

36:03

the Delphi case. That episode will

36:05

air next Sunday and for next

36:08

week's follow-up we hopefully will have

36:10

Janet back to help us knucklehead

36:12

stumble through this thing. With that

36:14

being said, that's it. Thanks guys.

36:16

Talk to you next week. Bye

36:18

guys. Truth

36:28

In Justice is an FBI studio's production. Co-written

36:30

and produced by Erica Bergenham. Music for season

36:32

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engaged you do stay in

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touch. But as for

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now, we're signing off. for

38:25

I'm Bob Ruff. off. I'm

38:27

Zach Weaver And I'm Janet

38:29

Barney. And this has

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been has been Justice. justice